Author Topic: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist  (Read 196388 times)

Felderburg

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2015, 06:27:07 PM »
Will there be any artistic changes in the distant future like pedestrians with robotic arms or business cows?

Actually, the addition of 4 legged creatures to the character creator, or a reliable method of editing costume text files to get them, would be pretty cool.

Paragon Chat doesn't need central mapservers. It's a deliberate design choice.

Well, yes, hence the :P
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Void Huntress

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2015, 04:27:39 AM »
Main reason I brought it up in reference to civillians is that for the most part they are background filler. So long as they aren't wildly different, people are unlikely to notice them being a little out of sync. So a reasonable approximation can work for them.

Right, I didn't intend to suggest there could be a problem there, just noting stuff it reminded me of.

And on that topic, there used to be (still is? I haven't looked in some time) this hilarious failstate in Warframe where two teammates could have their clients be desynced, causing them to see different enemies in different positions.

So I have this hilarious mental image of a couple of people moving close together, then getting wedged between each other and the same NPC on both sides due to slightly out of sync positioning.

Again, not a problem in /this/ case, but stuff like that can cause hilarious headaches in 'real' games.

Rejolt

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2015, 05:11:51 AM »
I always felt the spawning code in CoH had every other MMO ever, completely beat.  You never had mobs spawn on top of you, when you loaded into a zone, there were never mobs on top of you... Mobs sizes were always manageable...

I always thought this, too. Most games feel like theme-park robots resetting for each new customer. CoH's mobs felt more fluid. I did notice that "I MUST GET BACK TO MY SPAWN POINT"/unaffected target running back to where you aggroed it look started popping up in Going Rogue. I wonder if some corners had to be cut to get it out on time and on budget.
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caine6900

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2015, 05:41:14 AM »
I had a thought, and it looks like some of that may be implemented in later releases. I was thinking that there could be some of us that download the tabletop rules for COH and the players makes their characters and they all meet up in a section of the map that is not being used and in say local they all play their RPG game with no powers but the map would be really way cool map just for role players with the Gm running the dice rolls if the dice roller was totally random the player could roll them in game.
It is an idea.
Layne B Landis

Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2015, 08:28:50 AM »
I had a thought, and it looks like some of that may be implemented in later releases. I was thinking that there could be some of us that download the tabletop rules for COH and the players makes their characters and they all meet up in a section of the map that is not being used and in say local they all play their RPG game with no powers but the map would be really way cool map just for role players with the Gm running the dice rolls if the dice roller was totally random the player could roll them in game.
It is an idea.
Layne B Landis

People are seriously thinking about variations of that very thing: http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,192.0.html

Voltixdark

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2015, 10:02:32 AM »
Important: All of this is preliminary and is subject to change!
There are probably a number of things I'm forgetting about and will be added to this list as I remember them.

Target Milestone: 1.0
Estimated Completion: Soonish

  • Persistence of keybinds in the database

  • Persistence of window positions in the database

  • Persistence of power trays in database (needed for macros)

  • Auto-update

  • Account management
    See list of accounts and characters at a minimum

  • Dice rolling command

  • Whoall command

  • Sentinel+ importer (may be deferred to 1.1)

  • Prompt for closing main window while client is running


Target Milestone: 1.0.5
Estimated Completion: In a bit

  • Global MOTD

  • Cross-zone player search and notes

  • Hide options to opt out of player search

  • Door animations

  • Limited server-wide GM abilities for moderators
    (testbed for later use in private instances)


Target Milestone: 1.1
Estimated Completion: Sometime

  • Travel modes emulating Fly, Super Speed, Super Jump, Ninja Run, Beast Run, and Walk. Teleport is a possibility but may have technical issues blocking it.

  • Teams

  • Supergroups (may be pushed back to 1.2 depending on tech issues)


Target Milestone: 1.2
Estimated Completion: A while

  • Private instance support using arbitrary maps

  • GM abilities in private instances

  • NPC spawning in private instances


Target Milestone: 1.3
Estimated Completion: Longer than a while

  • Base editor

  • Integrate bases into private instance support


Target Milestone: Future, near to mid term
Estimated Completion: Sometime after 1.3

  • Better cross-server support for federated XMPP servers

  • Basic AI and means of coordinating non-combat NPC movements efficiently

  • Simulated self-affecting powers such as armor toggles

  • Lua scripting for client-side modifications


Target Milestone: Future, long term
Estimated Completion: Whenever

  • Simulated attack powers, possibly usable on target dummies

  • Handoff to realtime communication service for more demanding activities, such as PVP Arena matches


Wishlist
May be inserted into the roadmap as time allows or technical feasibility is determined

  • Costume change emotes

  • Exploration badges. Depends on if they can be done algorithmically, or if they depend on serverside data that would have to be reconstructed by hand.


Hey CW, do you think all these milestones can be completed by this year?

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2015, 10:05:35 AM »
Hey CW, do you think all these milestones can be completed by this year?

One really shouldn't ask for ETA's.  They'll be done when they're done.

Pengy

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2015, 11:40:45 AM »
I always thought this, too. Most games feel like theme-park robots resetting for each new customer. CoH's mobs felt more fluid. I did notice that "I MUST GET BACK TO MY SPAWN POINT"/unaffected target running back to where you aggroed it look started popping up in Going Rogue. I wonder if some corners had to be cut to get it out on time and on budget.
My impression was that a directive came down from NCSoft: This doesn't feel like an MMO. Make it stupid and annoying! I hadn't noticed the obnoxious resetting mob mechanic until Freedom hit.

Ohioknight

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #88 on: July 19, 2015, 12:23:45 PM »
I always thought this, too. Most games feel like theme-park robots resetting for each new customer. CoH's mobs felt more fluid. I did notice that "I MUST GET BACK TO MY SPAWN POINT"/unaffected target running back to where you aggroed it look started popping up in Going Rogue. I wonder if some corners had to be cut to get it out on time and on budget.

Until those last few releases with the Atlas Park Hellion-arson and Skulls arcs, the mob spawning and mob behavior in general was fantastic.  I never saw a mob spawn "in the wild" before those.  I found those features incredibly annoying because you could SEE the mobs spawning. 

That was also one of the things that really turned me off about Champions Online.  Sure I could save that grocer from a mob, but within seconds  that SAME grocer would appear threatened by that SAME set of mobsters in exactly the same spot -- what was the point?

I can fully understand the NPC behavior being the most complex thing in the game, the CoH NPC AI was INCREDIBLE.
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Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #89 on: July 19, 2015, 06:37:19 PM »
Hey CW, do you think all these milestones can be completed by this year?

That depends on what planet you live on.

Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #90 on: July 19, 2015, 06:38:53 PM »
I can fully understand the NPC behavior being the most complex thing in the game, the CoH NPC AI was INCREDIBLE.

Probably one of the most ironic statements about CoH of all time.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #91 on: July 19, 2015, 06:42:28 PM »
Probably one of the most ironic statements about CoH of all time.

Yeah... The actual NPC AI itself was dumber than a stunned herring.  It was the spawn code that was nifty.

Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #92 on: July 19, 2015, 07:42:52 PM »
Yeah... The actual NPC AI itself was dumber than a stunned herring.  It was the spawn code that was nifty.

One of my less well-known contributions to City of Heroes has to do with the fact that the NPC code had some special algorithms designed to make them reasonably efficient at selecting and using attack powers.  Ironically, the logic to do this actually made the NPCs less dangerous than they would have been and also prone to being manipulated (you could manipulate them into not even shooting at you more than half the time they could have, which is like free 50% resistance).  I suggested a change to the AI attack code that simultaneously made them significantly more dumb, and yet counter-intuitively made them significantly more deadly.

What's doubly interesting to me is that the change actually made critters deal up to 25% more damage in some cases, and yet there were exactly zero reports of the game getting more difficult after the change took place (it helped that the more powerful the critter, like AVs, the less they were helped by the change for technical and tactical reasons).  I don't think anyone could even name the moment when the change happened.

The problem with NPC AI is that, as the great engineer Scotty once proclaimed: the more they overhaul the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.  Simple tends to beat complicated, if simple is designed properly.

Ohioknight

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #93 on: July 19, 2015, 08:32:55 PM »
Yeah... The actual NPC AI itself was dumber than a stunned herring.  It was the spawn code that was nifty.

Is this simply my ignorance of the standard abilities of game AI?  I watched a rescued NPC run half a mile trying to find a place where it could disappear without my witnessing it until it finally gave up and faded out.
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General Idiot

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2015, 05:24:56 AM »
One small (Or probably not so small) suggestion. Would it be possible to get some kind of meet up feature?

For reference, I play TSW and in that game you can simply click a name in chat and hit 'meet up' on the context menu. They get a popup asking if they want to let you meet up on them (with options in the settings menu for auto accept or deny) and if they let you you immediately teleport to their location - specifically, to the closest respawn point.

Here it'd probably have to be a slash command, you'd go /meetup <name> and if they let you, you'd just teleport straight to them or more ideally, to a location close by so you don't just pop in right on top of them. It's just the 'if they let you' part that I'm not sure about, doing that within limitations of both XMPP and the CoH client might be difficult. But it'd be a useful thing if it could be done, especially in the current system with no travel powers available.

Apologies if this isn't the right place for suggestions, I did look for a suggestions thread or forum but either my search-fu is weak or there isn't one.

Aggelakis

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2015, 05:42:11 AM »
Don't we already have that? Isn't that basically /mapmove?
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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2015, 05:55:33 AM »
Don't we already have that? Isn't that basically /mapmove?

He probably means teleporting to their exact location...

Void Huntress

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2015, 06:41:33 AM »
Here it'd probably have to be a slash command, you'd go /meetup <name> and if they let you, you'd just teleport straight to them or more ideally, to a location close by so you don't just pop in right on top of them. It's just the 'if they let you' part that I'm not sure about, doing that within limitations of both XMPP and the CoH client might be difficult. But it'd be a useful thing if it could be done, especially in the current system with no travel powers available.

... Now I'm amusing myself with the notion of Paragon Chat pretending meetup is a rez, to convince the client it should give a popup.

Presuming that kind of hook can be borrowed, shouldn't be necessary to do THAT route given the team teleport prompt and whatnot. But it amuses me.

Rejolt

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #98 on: July 20, 2015, 07:36:27 AM »
Am I reading this wrong: While Paragon Chat uses the CoH Client, outside of artwork and animations nothing is running on work done originally by Cryptic and Paragon Studios? That means all powers and commands are being done from scratch. Nothing will move like it once did or act like it once did.

You're not reinventing the wheel. You're just reinventing the laws of physics we need to let the wheel move. No pressure.

If what I said here is any where close to the truth, take all the ####  time you need to do what you do. And that's coming form a person who medically may not be here in 5 years.
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Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2015, 08:26:04 AM »
Am I reading this wrong: While Paragon Chat uses the CoH Client, outside of artwork and animations nothing is running on work done originally by Cryptic and Paragon Studios? That means all powers and commands are being done from scratch. Nothing will move like it once did or act like it once did.

Sort of.  City of Heroes was a somewhat cooperative game system, in which the client did things and the server did things.  Some things only the server did, some things mostly only the client did, and some things required the server to ask the client to do things the client could do perfectly fine on its own, but simply had no specific notion of when to do them.  For example, when you activated the power Eagle's Claw, one of the things the server did was send a signal to the client that basically said "start the eagle's claw preliminary animation."  All by itself, the game client was capable of processing that command, loading a script that told it how to move your character's limbs in the right way to perform that animation, and *then* decide that the next movement you should do was another animation, and then another, until the "sequence" was complete.  All of that would happen even if the server instantly crashed and died after sending that command because the client understood how to carry on after that first message, to a degree.

However, the client had absolutely no idea what Eagle's Claw actually was.  It did not know that when you activate that power if you hit the target it should also spawn some visual effects on the target for the "kapow" when you hit it.  The client didn't even know there was such a thing as a target, or the notion of hitting it.  The server determined that, rolled the dice, figured out the hit percentages, and told the client whether or not to generate a "kapow" in the right place at the right time.  The client is capable of animating attackers, it can animate target reactions, it can spawn everything you see, but it doesn't know how to do that in the right order, and it doesn't know whether it should or not in the first place.  The client is a puppet, and the server held the strings.

Almost everything you see in Paragon Chat is something the client is perfectly capable of doing, if only a game server tells it to do so.   Paragon Chat is pretending to be a server, so the game client will happily run along doing what it says.  But Paragon Chat is the Leonard Shelby of game servers.  It has no idea how to do what the original game servers knew how to do with only a few exceptions, that being what Codewalker tattoos on its arms.  It knows how to spawn an entity - player or NPC - onto a map.  It knows how to pass the right messages to game clients to animate those NPCs, and it has a basic gravity, velocity, and movement model capable of moving entities around in a way consistent with them jogging (the base run players did in the game by default).  It knows how to make certain kinds of doors work.  It can teleport people from one zone to another. 

It currently has no notion of what "powers" are, what attributes and attribmods are (in English: how one entity might affect another, and what kinds of things can you actually affect on an entity, like HitPoints).  It is currently unaware of how movement modes work, which is why we currently cannot fly or superleap.  It does not know how the original game used to put us into COMBAT mode in a logical way, which is why we cannot draw and present our weapons (the odd emote notwithstanding).

Now, hypothetically speaking, we know exactly how City of Heroes powers work, and I mean exactly.  That information is theoretically within the data in the game client (which was used to feed the Real Numbers system among other things, but is information the game client didn't use for any mechanical purpose).  Given the rules of how the powers system itself worked which existed only on the game servers but knowledgeable players exist that could reproduce them (I could, for example, as could Codewalker), the knowledge of how to make powers work exactly precisely as they did in the original game exists.  What's missing is a software engine that implemented those rules.  And that's something that unfortunately is probably a significant time away from being realized.

Codewalker isn't working totally from scratch.  The problem he faces is he's trying to assemble an entire commercial building full of do it yourself furniture in which all the parts for all of the furniture have been put in a single pile, and all the instructions are in Navajo.