Author Topic: Coming Soon  (Read 210066 times)

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #460 on: July 02, 2015, 06:38:56 AM »
So true, but fan fiction is, well slop, for the most part, I mean my is.  Anyway, I write to crack me up, which I usually do.  Fragile ego about "Where Have All The Heroes Gone" series, I do not possess.  As a matter of fact, you can reply to the forum topic and say, "... and Bob's your uncle."
(I like using that as a epitah.)

I *think* I did fairly well with my fan fic, well enough that I won one of the fan fic writers prizes on the official boards, at least! But tbh, I didn't worry so much about the -way- it was written, and more trying to get a compelling tale down on paper.  The technical parts of the writing are what improve most over time, but if you can't get a decent story out of your head, well... That's a little harder to improve. :P

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #461 on: July 02, 2015, 06:39:23 AM »
And some fanfics get published.
--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_%28series%29

And some fanfic of fanfics get published.
--> --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty_Shades_of_Grey

And some things should -never- have been published. Ever.

*shudder*


FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #462 on: July 02, 2015, 06:40:45 AM »
Ok, VV, if you aren't too busy, please rip my "Where Have All The Heroes Gone" series of fan fiction to shreds.

There, are you happy now?

You forgot to link it. :p

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #463 on: July 02, 2015, 06:53:42 AM »
You forgot to link it. :p
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,159.0.html

Done and done.  :-D

Wow, to have my silly stories ripped to shreds by a professional writer, a dream come true.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #464 on: July 02, 2015, 08:50:30 AM »
Done and done.  :-D

Wow, to have my silly stories ripped to shreds by a professional writer, a dream come true.

Well, if you want my poor opinion (off topic alert!), for me, the story just doesn't work.  I just don't like how you've tried to make the game mechanics such as power levels and mob colour conning a real thing... It's just.. jarringly unrealistic, to me at least.  But that's enough OT-ness. ;)

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #465 on: July 02, 2015, 09:26:56 AM »
Ok, VV, if you aren't too busy, please rip my "Where Have All The Heroes Gone" series of fan fiction to shreds.
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,159.0.html

There, are you happy now?

Don't be bullied into doing that.  Seriously: if you can honestly say harsh criticism won't affect your ability to write, and you honestly want it, do it.  If not, don't jump into the deep end of the pool on a dare.  I was fully prepared to be told that on a scale of one to ten, would I consider learning a musical instrument.  But genuine honest criticism stings.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #466 on: July 02, 2015, 09:30:56 AM »
Ok, VV, if you aren't too busy, please rip my "Where Have All The Heroes Gone" series of fan fiction to shreds.
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,159.0.html

There, are you happy now?

I honestly do not have time to do a line-by-line.  But like FFM said....no.  If you really want your epic published you must get rid of all game mechanics.  Back in the day when PnP DnD was all the rage, I got shown a lot of books that were based on someone's campaign.  Short form: if you can hear the dice roll (or the RNG generating) every time someone does something, it's nothing anyone who was not there wants to read.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #467 on: July 02, 2015, 11:02:42 AM »
I honestly do not have time to do a line-by-line.  But like FFM said....no.  If you really want your epic published you must get rid of all game mechanics.  Back in the day when PnP DnD was all the rage, I got shown a lot of books that were based on someone's campaign.  Short form: if you can hear the dice roll (or the RNG generating) every time someone does something, it's nothing anyone who was not there wants to read.
This was actually my problem with some of the story arcs a la "The Origins of Power" that were added to CoH. There were quite a few of the stories in game that weren't very well written and didn't tell a compelling story, but seeing game design abstractions and game mechanics codified as official in-game lore that way made me cringe internally regardless of writing quality. That and the whole thing with Dr. Aeon's jiggery-pokery causing heroes and villains to suddenly get access to each others' powersets, but at least that wasn't called out in game, just in news announcements on the official site.


Powerset proliferation as an in-universe event raised all sorts of Calvinist issues. Was there some sort of force granting characters power suites based on knowing their current and future morality and actions? Did receiving certain suites of powers force you to become a particular type of person? Was it a mixture of both? Regardless, the implication was that a superpowered being's moral path was predetermined the moment they gained their powers. Until it suddenly wasn't, and i was very grateful that at least that wasn't presented as an in-universe event.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Codewalker

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #468 on: July 02, 2015, 05:17:48 PM »
If the game somehow comes back I will make it my personal mission to excise the Origin of Power arc from canon with extreme prejudice.

Leandro

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #469 on: July 02, 2015, 05:52:01 PM »
Ooh, now that brings back memories... First professional project I did way back in 1987, runner registration database for the Hastings Half Marathon, done in dBase III+ and Clipper!

Yeah! That brings back memories! Last government work I did in 2013, electoral database for the national elections, done in dBase III+ and Clipper!

Nope, not joking.



The government here has used the same dBaseIII / Clipper program to handle electoral records for the last 20 years at least. There have been multiple attempts to migrate it to other formats (Access, FoxPro) but there were always complaints from towns in the middle of nowhere that only had an old computer with Windows 95 that they couldn't run the new thing, so the dBase version was dug out over and over and over again and shipped at the last minute (the FoxPro migration attempt was particularly awful; I still have nightmares about it).

The last attempt actually tried to install Apache, PHP and MySQL on the user's machine and open a query page in the default web browser. The less said about that, the better.

During the last election, some places requested an application that would run on tablets, since we do have a flood of cheap Android tablets all over the place. But because the database is only meant to be kept in the hands of people in charge of electoral authorities (in practice, they leak with everybody's personal data every single election year) they couldn't just put it on the Play store. And installing an APK through disabling the "Unknown Sources" warning was considered too confusing. What was the solution?



The same Clipper application, running on DOSBOX on Android.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #470 on: July 02, 2015, 05:56:50 PM »
Oh wow... That dBase code brings back memories!  I can't believe people are still using it in 2015 though...

Mind you, for it's day, it was totally awesome... Nothing could match it for database needs, not even close.

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #471 on: July 02, 2015, 07:11:11 PM »
This was actually my problem with some of the story arcs a la "The Origins of Power" that were added to CoH. There were quite a few of the stories in game that weren't very well written and didn't tell a compelling story, but seeing game design abstractions and game mechanics codified as official in-game lore that way made me cringe internally regardless of writing quality. That and the whole thing with Dr. Aeon's jiggery-pokery causing heroes and villains to suddenly get access to each others' powersets, but at least that wasn't called out in game, just in news announcements on the official site.

I think there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it, but I think actual in-game fiction doesn't suffer the same fatal flaw that VV mentions, because you're actually there.  The game has to hand-wave its own mechanics all the time, so you're not introducing something players aren't being confronted with all the time.  The question is execution.

There were many story arcs that were not well written objectively, and Origins of Power was one of them.  But the thing that really burned my noodle about Origins of Power was one of the few areas I think I disagreed with Paragon Studios as a whole irreconcilably.  Knowing the time constraints of MMO development, and knowing the limitations of collaborative efforts, and knowing everything I know about how this works, and factoring in all of that, I am *still* not even *remotely* convinced that its a good idea to treat your canon as extremely flexible, and the rules of your universe as mere excuses to have things happen.  Origins of Power, and the entire rest of the Incarnate story line, treats how things work as a fuzzy unimportant thing that you can simply string words together that sound cool and no one should care if they make sense.  And I can suspend the part of my brain that rails against that and just play the game, but its always there, having a tantrum and tossing neurons around my skull.

It doesn't really take any more work to make a coherent backstory and set of world rules than it does to make crazy patchwork ones.  It just takes more thought.  And the excuse that its just comic book logic so anything goes is particularly offensive to me.  All fiction, including comic books, rely on rules for the reader to have any sense of drama or consequence.  If literally anything can happen, if literally nothing has to make sense, its impossible to know what the ramifications of anything are.  Is this good or bad?  Who knows.  What will the characters do next?  Who cares.  Its impossible to care, because anything can happen.  So why bother trying to understand anything.

This really has its roots in origin of origin, where someone in the dev team said we need a way to designate how the player got his or her powers, and they decided Science, Technology, Natural, Mutation, and Magic were reasonable necessary and sufficient descriptors.  Except Science, Technology, and Mutation are all the same damn thing.  Sure, you can ask stupid irrelevant questions like isn't being hit by lightning totally different from making a suit of armor?  Yeah, in the same way getting hit by lightning is different from being doused in chemicals.  The problem is all technology works on scientific principles, so the overlap between those two was going to be hefty.  And Mutation?  Is there a non-scientific kind of mutation?

There are really only three origins.  Science/Tech, Magic, and Natural.  If your powers come from a scientific discovery or technology, then it operates based on presumably similar principles to what we know as science.  All of those are understandable as extrapolations of real world science and technology.  If your powers come from magical sources, then it operates completely differently than how real world science works.  Instead, it works based on a set of fictional internal rules that contradict how the real world works, but are at least internally consistent and have a flavor we'd recognize as magical.

If you're Natural, your powers are in fact normal for the world of City of Heroes.  Just like Arnold Schwarzenegger can get blown up by a grenade in Commando, James Bond can get shot and go back to chasing villains in a week, and Ethan Hunt can get thrown onto a train by an explosion and survive, but all those people are not superhuman in their movie worlds, we're just supposed to assume that in their world, that's possible, in the world of City of Heroes, "natural" isn't the same as it is here.  Its the world of Kung Fu movies where if you just practice enough you can split a rock with your little finger. 

And that's it.  Either you obey the rules as we basically understand them, you're proof the rules are radically different here, or you defy the rules.  No other options exist.  Neat and simple.  And because those origins aren't just pulled out of thin air but are actually justified, you can actually use them narratively.  The devs actually originally had plans to use origin beyond a blank on your character sheet and an unnecessary blizzard of enhancement types.  But when they created their names randomly, and added the additional "players have the freedom to make up their own reasons for choosing them" they killed that narrative opportunity in the crib, and they know it.

Knowing exactly how and why the Well of Furies did what it did isn't just a nit pickers exercise.  It lays the groundwork for the narrative rules that guide its storyline.  But the "official" story about Origin of Power is honestly Dan Brown levels of bad.  And not even "well researched then spat on" Da Vinci Code bad.  I'm taking Deception Point bad.  Even Digital Fortress bad.

You don't make stories consistent and well-thought out for the nit-pickers.  You do it for yourself, so that you don't paint yourself into narrative corners.  So you can build on foundations that won't collapse.  So you do not have to keep telling your readers "check brain at door, illegal to operate on the premises."  So you don't have to paint a line this high on your story and say "must be at least this stupid to ride."

Did I mention I'm not a fan of Origin of Power?  Yeah, not a fan.

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #472 on: July 02, 2015, 07:15:02 PM »
If the game somehow comes back I will make it my personal mission to excise the Origin of Power arc from canon with extreme prejudice.

My escape hatch was to presume that everyone in that arc, including the Well was an unreliable narrator.  No one knew how the Well worked, so they were unreliable.  The Well when speaking through other people was echoing their stupidity, and was unreliable.

And Prometheus was an asshat and thought we were too stupid to know the truth, and straight up lied to us.

And yes, I know my solution was strong meta-commentary on the arc.  In this case I think it deserved it.

Leandro

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #473 on: July 02, 2015, 07:23:08 PM »
There is enough evidence that Prometheus is straight up lying to us and not reliable. Prometheus has a major beef with Zeus; shortly after he arrives, Darrin Wade somehow learns how to kill the Zeus Incarnate of our dimension, and Prometheus basically recruits us to kill the Zeus Incarnate of another dimension. That screams "I am using you and I have ulterior motives".

FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #474 on: July 02, 2015, 07:26:08 PM »
Did I mention I'm not a fan of Origin of Power?  Yeah, not a fan.

You, me, and just about every single RPer in the game, plus all the others.  It was bloody stupid, annoying, and was rightfully ignored as much as possible.

Especially annoying was everything to do with the Well.

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #475 on: July 02, 2015, 07:36:33 PM »
There is enough evidence that Prometheus is straight up lying to us and not reliable. Prometheus has a major beef with Zeus; shortly after he arrives, Darrin Wade somehow learns how to kill the Zeus Incarnate of our dimension, and Prometheus basically recruits us to kill the Zeus Incarnate of another dimension. That screams "I am using you and I have ulterior motives".

There's evidence to believe that Prometheus, for some reason, believes "champions" of the Well are a bad idea, that somehow investing all that power in a single or too few hands will be ineffective against the Battalion.  Given what the devs have said about how the Well works and what the Battalion were likely to be, that's totally illogical, whether the devs had plans to try to make it logical or not.  But I believe, discounting future plans, that the Prometheus in the game is not so much manipulating us as treating us like children, not sophisticated enough to know the truth, and so have to be told what we need to hear to do the right thing, whether that's the truth or not.  So he's totally unreliable as a source of information.

What I believe, again separate from dev future plans, is that his plan ultimately fails, and Silos knows that.  Silos has seen Prometheus fail, he's seen the Dream Doctor fail, and he's seen Ouroboros itself fail, and that's why he's taken the big risk to leap from tether to tether to get back to the present.

Which makes his clumsy ignorance in Ramiel's arc all the more inexplicable.  Even if you toss out everything I conjecture and look only at the in-game information, it makes no sense whatsoever for Silos to be so ignorant about Incarnates, when he's done what he did to the Dream Doctor and given the respect he otherwise has from the other Menders.  He's had a million years to learn what Ramiel knows, and it slipped his mind to research the one most important element of his current goal in life?  That's not Nemesis.

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #476 on: July 02, 2015, 07:42:28 PM »
You, me, and just about every single RPer in the game, plus all the others.  It was bloody stupid, annoying, and was rightfully ignored as much as possible.

Especially annoying was everything to do with the Well.

Ironically perhaps, when something is irrevocably broken I tend to give it a pass.  If I can't figure out how to fix it, I tend to cut the devs slack that maybe they just didn't have time to fix it, but needed it for some developmental reason.

But when its trivially fixable, as Origin of Power and the Well of Furies story was?  That's grating.  I'm not saying its trivially fixable in the sense that what I would have done is what everyone else would have done and we all agree.  I'm saying I think in a head to head shootout I could write something that a supermajority of players would think was more acceptable to their game narrative.  I'm saying there are ways to make Origin/Incarnates narratively stronger, and yet simultaneously less unpalatable to roleplayers (particularly with regard to where incarnate power comes from).  And I'm saying they are obvious solutions.

Actually, some of the Loregasms imply at least some of the devs were thinking in similar directions, but their thoughts didn't make it explicitly to the storyline.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #477 on: July 02, 2015, 08:42:34 PM »
Well, if you want my poor opinion (off topic alert!), for me, the story just doesn't work.  I just don't like how you've tried to make the game mechanics such as power levels and mob colour conning a real thing... It's just.. jarringly unrealistic, to me at least.  But that's enough OT-ness. ;)

I understand and if this were a more serious piece, I would make a Voodoo doll of your likeness. :)

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #478 on: July 02, 2015, 08:44:06 PM »

Kids these days don't even know how good they have it.  All their fancy javascript and Ruby on Rails.  They don't know what it was like to have databases without stored procedures, cpus without memory management, and languages you had to learn Spanish to code in.

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #479 on: July 02, 2015, 09:04:44 PM »
I honestly do not have time to do a line-by-line.  But like FFM said....no.  If you really want your epic published you must get rid of all game mechanics.  Back in the day when PnP DnD was all the rage, I got shown a lot of books that were based on someone's campaign.  Short form: if you can hear the dice roll (or the RNG generating) every time someone does something, it's nothing anyone who was not there wants to read.

Yup, as a stand alone story it doesn't work.  It wasn't meant to.  I guess I really don't need anybody to critique it.  I am not planning on having it published.  Besides there may be ownership issues with it being on the forum.