Author Topic: Coming Soon  (Read 210012 times)

Paragon Hero

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #220 on: June 23, 2015, 04:47:01 PM »

nicoliy

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #221 on: June 23, 2015, 04:57:32 PM »

Paragon Hero

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #222 on: June 23, 2015, 05:06:17 PM »
thanks

Brightfires

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #223 on: June 23, 2015, 05:34:17 PM »
I'm still just giddy over the idea of being able to take screenshots with ACTUAL PLAYER-TYPE CHARACTERS in them again.

Even if all you guys are doing is standing around chatting and doing emotes, it's a whole lot more interesting than just flying around empty maps in Icon, taking more landscape shots.  8)
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Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #224 on: June 23, 2015, 05:43:33 PM »
Edit: In fact, looking at the bandwidth requirements...

I can cover probably 60,000 or so users... :p

I doubt it.  XMPP calculations normally presume chat grouping, but the CoXMPP/Soon/Hasn'tBeenAnnouncedYet system presumes everyone is in everyone's chat domain, so compute load and bandwidth requirements go up approximately quadradically.  If everyone is standing still and not talking, the system probably only does a periodic sync pulse to everyone (or they have some other way of doing an initial burst when someone joins: otherwise someone logging in initially won't see anything).  But when players are moving and chatting bandwidth load would rise dramatically.  You'd have to budget for the reasonable worst case, otherwise the system would fall apart when people actually tried to do anything, and initially I wouldn't be surprised if City of Heroes players tried to do all sorts of lunatic things in there.  Assume in the worst case that *everyone* does something that requires at least one XMPP message every ten seconds.  That has to get sent to everyone.  Assume the average CoXMPP message is about 128 bytes.  One thousand players would then require approximately 128MB/10sec or 12.8MB/sec.  That's about 100mb/sec.

Now, suppose Codewalker optimized traffic so that only players in the same zone need to see each other's position updates, but everyone sees everyone else's chat.  In that case, the bandwidth requirements drop for position updates, but not for chat (unless most players drop out of the global channel).  Hypothetically speaking, depending on the zone cap CW enforces, there would be a horizon limit to the quadratic effect.  Some zones had a 50 player limit in the actual game, but many had 200+ player limits.  Lets assume the limit per zone was 250 players.  In that case, 250 players would have about a 62500 message per interval ceiling, and about a 8 megabyte per interval bandwidth requirement.  That's 6.4 mb/sec for 250 players.  That would then scale roughly linearly for non-global messages.  100mb/sec would handle closer to 4000 players rather than 1000 players.  So in this scheme, given global chat and horizon-limited positional updates, you'd be looking at 100mb/sec supporting about 2000 players, maybe.

These are very rough order of magnitude estimates, without being able to actually monitor a CityofCodewalker connection and the architecture of the system.

Codewalker

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #225 on: June 23, 2015, 06:43:05 PM »
I think 128 bytes is probably on the high side of the average, but not a bad place to start for conservative estimates.

Here's an example worst case update message, taken from a player who has just reached the apex of a jump and is headed downward and triggered a non-predictable animation transition, while spinning around in midair.

I say worst case because attributes that don't change are omitted from update messages, so if I weren't spinning around, the orientation ("o") would remain constant and not be included, for example. The same happens if it believes that the position and animation state can be trivially predicted.

Code: [Select]
<message type="groupchat" to="test1@server.nice.try/Nomad"
from="novapraetoria_meta@conference.server.nice.try/Conan the Librarian">
<u xmlns="xx:u" p="-4742.7 40 -240.8" v="0 -0.6 0" o="0 -1.77 0" m="JUMPFALL"/>
</message>

That's the inbound message that is being received by another client, chosen because it's slightly longer (outgoing stanzas to the server can omit the 'from').

That's 221 bytes for the worst case. Notice that the majority of the data is actually the boilerplate XMPP message wrapper around it. However, one thing that doesn't take into account is that we use TLS, and TLS applies DEFLATE compression to its data stream. I haven't measured the effects directly, but it should make the message considerably shorter, as the tags and addresses are repeated very often and are prime candidates to be turned into back-references.

We rate limit outbound messages to prevent flooding, as well as add a small delay before sending to allow changes that happen within a couple ticks of each other to be batched into a single update. Very small changes in the values also cause it to wait longer before sending an update.

The zones will initially be capped to 30, to be on the conservative side. That's a setting on the XMPP server itself, so it's something we can tweak in real time if it looks like we can go higher.

That reminds me, I need to implement instancing when a zone fills up. BRB.

Arcana

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #226 on: June 23, 2015, 07:27:41 PM »
However, one thing that doesn't take into account is that we use TLS, and TLS applies DEFLATE compression to its data stream. I haven't measured the effects directly, but it should make the message considerably shorter, as the tags and addresses are repeated very often and are prime candidates to be turned into back-references.

For XML messages like these, I would expect deflate to be able to deliver at least three to one after a startup period.  Of course, with both encryption overhead and deflate overhead, computational costs start to become a factor relative to bandwidth.

Codewalker

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #227 on: June 23, 2015, 07:43:38 PM »
Indeed, added to the fact that XML parsing is not free, we'll be keeping a close eye on CPU usage. If it gets too high it may become necessary to either scale out or look into asking some people to run additional servers and set up limited s2s federation between them.

I'm sure Arcana is now looking at that update message and thinking about how easy it would be to write a bot that pretends to be a player. :)

It wouldn't be that hard, you'd also have to implement the special fields in the presence to indicate the character info, and most likely the IQ-based costume query protocol.

Felderburg

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #228 on: June 23, 2015, 08:15:09 PM »
Here's an offbase question - or, really, a moonbase question.  Didn't I-24 have a moonbase map or maps?  If so, can anyone provide the map-code string for that? 

In short, no. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Moon_Zone (See also: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted & search the page for "moon"). Concept art was approved on the final day before the shutdown announcement, and nothing else was done (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#7).

HOWEVER, it was shown to be possible, with the Icon program, to build zones manually. Some people did get a cool looking pseudo moon zone put together, or at least the starting stages of one. Whether the Soon program eventually allows for people to add in their own custom zones remains to be seen.
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FloatingFatMan

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #229 on: June 23, 2015, 08:39:23 PM »
These are very rough order of magnitude estimates, without being able to actually monitor a CityofCodewalker connection and the architecture of the system.

Well, I have no experience at all with XMPP, but a few years back, when I had about 1/4 the bandwidth and far less CPU horsepower than I do now, I was able to run a WoW server, with about 50 folks connected, as well as me -on the same machine-, with zero lag. People were raiding and chatting etc, no problems.

But fine, I don't mind NOT offering help if NCSoft turn shitty and try to ruin our fun.

Poison

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #230 on: June 23, 2015, 09:37:42 PM »
I haven't been active here forever, but I really wanted to log in and thank Codewalker and Leandro (and whoever else is involved) for all your hard work. I know it's not the whole game, but as as a frequent RPer I couldn't be more excited about this project!

I can only guess how much work you have ahead of you to get this to run, but I can't help but ask: do you think it'll be possible at some point to access the base editor and literally create chat rooms? That would be an absolute dream.

Ohioknight

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #231 on: June 23, 2015, 09:57:11 PM »
The zones will initially be capped to 30, to be on the conservative side. That's a setting on the XMPP server itself, so it's something we can tweak in real time if it looks like we can go higher.

That reminds me, I need to implement instancing when a zone fills up. BRB.

So we won't be doing that closing scene from "Unity" live then ... AWWWW :'(

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LaughingAlex

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #232 on: June 23, 2015, 10:56:40 PM »
In short, no. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Moon_Zone (See also: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted & search the page for "moon"). Concept art was approved on the final day before the shutdown announcement, and nothing else was done (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted#7).

HOWEVER, it was shown to be possible, with the Icon program, to build zones manually. Some people did get a cool looking pseudo moon zone put together, or at least the starting stages of one. Whether the Soon program eventually allows for people to add in their own custom zones remains to be seen.

What I couldn't wait for when CoX comes back, and thus can't wait for in Soon, is a proper space station that isn't a minimalist effort like some other annoying game recently.  Space stations need to be big and cool.  Hell, I am wanting to try out Galactic Civilizations III just thinking of things like space ships and space stations.

A space station should:

Be a big zone.  Really, make it nice and large.  Yeah, I know full interior but a big space station would be fun as heck.  Think about the size of Steel Canyon or Kings Row.
Needs details inside it.  Just blank walls and floors would be lame.
Needs a cultural center in it!
Don't be afraid of throwing some green into it to!  A garden area would be cool as heck.


Just, don't be super minimalist with only 2-3 rooms and a small bar.  This is the super hero universe, know?
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Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #233 on: June 23, 2015, 11:27:32 PM »
What I couldn't wait for when CoX comes back, and thus can't wait for in Soon, is a proper space station that isn't a minimalist effort like some other annoying game recently.  Space stations need to be big and cool.  Hell, I am wanting to try out Galactic Civilizations III just thinking of things like space ships and space stations.

A space station should:

Be a big zone.  Really, make it nice and large.  Yeah, I know full interior but a big space station would be fun as heck.  Think about the size of Steel Canyon or Kings Row.
Needs details inside it.  Just blank walls and floors would be lame.
Needs a cultural center in it!
Don't be afraid of throwing some green into it to!  A garden area would be cool as heck.


Just, don't be super minimalist with only 2-3 rooms and a small bar.  This is the super hero universe, know?
A Gray Vivarium would be cool, but since that's basically an O'Neill Cylinder with a central lighting core instead of window strips it would require the game engine to be able to handle variable gravity and an environment where gravity always pulled outwards from the center. Of course for a variety of practical reasons actual space stations in CoH would use the gravity generator trope.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Atlantea

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #234 on: June 23, 2015, 11:37:49 PM »
What I couldn't wait for when CoX comes back, and thus can't wait for in Soon, is a proper space station that isn't a minimalist effort like some other annoying game recently.  Space stations need to be big and cool.  Hell, I am wanting to try out Galactic Civilizations III just thinking of things like space ships and space stations.

A space station should:

Be a big zone.  Really, make it nice and large.  Yeah, I know full interior but a big space station would be fun as heck.  Think about the size of Steel Canyon or Kings Row.
Needs details inside it.  Just blank walls and floors would be lame.
Needs a cultural center in it!
Don't be afraid of throwing some green into it to!  A garden area would be cool as heck.


Just, don't be super minimalist with only 2-3 rooms and a small bar.  This is the super hero universe, know?

This is probably a pipe dream, but it would be nice if "Soon" also gave us access to the base editor. That way we could make our OWN RP areas. True - it wouldn't be as open as an actual zone map. But the tools might be easier to implement.

But I don't know how you'd implement bases. I mean - I still have all my character's COSTUME saves in the client folder. But there's nothing like a "base save" folder. So I'm pretty sure that's something that was handled server-side. Thus probably beyond the scope of "Soon".

(I did make demo-records of my bases just in case. But I don't know if anything can be extracted from that that will be useful for "Soon" or any future server. Probably would have to just build it all from scratch again. At least I'd know from the beginning what I was aiming for instead of "making it up as I go"!  Heh. :) )

Pity that. I looked at the above post and I had some ideas about how to implement a limited version of the idea with the base editor, but then I realized the limitations of "Soon".

Still - I'm optimistic. These guys are wizards. It'll just take some time. They're making THIS work. Surely sometime in the future they'll figure out how to make base building work.

This Christmas in Pocket D!

Maybe NEXT Christmas in the SG base! :)

Steelhelm

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #235 on: June 24, 2015, 12:01:30 AM »
Remade and saved my main's costume for this! Can't wait! :D

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #236 on: June 24, 2015, 12:19:50 AM »
Remade and saved my main's costume for this! Can't wait! :D

It's very exciting indeed.   :)

Paragon Avenger

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #237 on: June 24, 2015, 12:26:42 AM »
So what will this SoonTM a.k.a. Super Fire Dragon's Fun House of Chat, be like?
What features will be available?

Lycantropus

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #238 on: June 24, 2015, 12:29:42 AM »
So what will this SoonTM a.k.a. Super Fire Dragon's Fun House of Chat, be like?

For me, at least, that much closer to being 'home' :)

I'm really hoping we'll still have much of the functionality of the regular Icon; summoning NPC's, being able to make macros and keybinds for various functions...

I have ideas...  8)

Lyc~

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Re: Coming Soon
« Reply #239 on: June 24, 2015, 12:49:27 AM »
I've got a few costumes I saved back when the game was alive, and a few I've done in ICON that I really liked.

But, yes, definitely time to play around and make some more!