Doubters and Downers. . .

[Arcana]

I am not entirely sure what difficulty there would be in changing the names of the servers. The level in entering the game is before you even create a character and we know the character names can change. However, I admit my ignorance on this matter.

I believe what Codewalker is referring to is the fact that the server names are not just in simple configuration files, but are baked into the graphics in the client and probably used in many places in various resource files (i.e. pigg and bin files).  So its possible to change, but it would require a lot of work for dubious benefit, plus you'd have to redistribute that modified client to everyone who wanted to play the game.

Character names can change because character names are part of the information added to the game databases as people play the game, and those databases can be edited, and those edits only really need to take place on the server side.  It is both (relatively) straight forward for a game operator to edit those databases, and they don't have to worry about propagating those changes to players.  If the game client queried a primary server and downloaded a manifest of servers that were available, and then showed players that list created dynamically, it would be easy to make up whatever servers you wanted on the hosted side and players' game clients would simply adapt.  But that's not how City of Heroes worked. 

One of the ways a player not familiar with the inner workings of the game could deduce this to be the case is that there were a few times when beta clients would display odd or unusual server names as a result of them slipping into the build.  When that happened, the devs could not alter or remove that server from the server list until the next beta client build was released.  They could, of course, turn that server off or make it unreachable, but the server would still show grey.  That suggests server names are, in at least some areas, hardcoded into the game clients.

[Remaugen]

I guess I had automatically assumed that a new client would be required. It seems logical to me that owners would want their mark on the splash screen and it would need to point at the new IP (They wouldn't be using the original IP address would they?). . .

[pinballdave]

I believe what Codewalker is referring to is the fact that the server names are not just in simple configuration files, but are baked into the graphics in the client and probably used in many places in various resource files (i.e. pigg and bin files). <snip!>

Oh how droll. Simple configuration files are simple people. Another lesson for programmers.

[Codewalker]

I guess I had automatically assumed that a new client would be required. It seems logical to me that owners would want their mark on the splash screen and it would need to point at the new IP (They wouldn't be using the original IP address would they?). . .

The splash screen image can be modified with a simple texture override and doesn't even require changing pigg files. Even if you did patch the relevant pigg (assuming you had tools to create piggs, I don't know of any publicly available ones that can), that's much easier to do than recompiling a bin file.

The IP address is a command line parameter. A tiny launcher program could handle both of those.

Oh how droll. Simple configuration files are simple people. Another lesson for programmers.

To the original developers who had the source code and all of the tools involved in creating a release build, they were changing simple text files. There is a reason that all the text is encoded the way it was for distribution -- so that the client can support multiple languages rather than forcing everything to use English text read from a config file. It's not their fault that NCsoft doesn't want to provide the buyers with those tools (assuming anyone at NCsoft even knows what they look like).

[Ironwolf]

That is my understanding that NCSoft doesn't know where all of this stuff might even be - now a former Dev after sale may be of some help.

Because not having it is a nice way to work to lower the purchase price.

[Codewalker]

*IF* they bothered to archive anything from the development workstations/fileserver, I doubt they even know what they have. That tends to happen when you fire an entire development team all at once and don't keep anybody who knows how any of it was set up.

A former dev is only useful if they kept something they weren't supposed to, and if the terms of the license agreement negotiated as part of the IP purchase allow for the use of materials that were not included and presumed destroyed, but later recovered, while indemnifying the source who would otherwise be on the hook for IP theft and contract violation. Given the bad blood around the shutdown, getting NCsoft to agree to such a clause might be quite difficult.

My gut feeling is that NCsoft may not know the details of the development tools, does have the source code and knows where that is (source code repositories are easy to identify, and would have been a high profile thing to keep track of), but is not willing to part with it for any price due to internal politics. They probably have the source for the tools in the repo, but no one with the knowledge required to use it to compile binaries for them. Hence the server image, which is similar to how they license some of their games for third parties to operate in Europe.

[Surelle]

That is my understanding that NCSoft doesn't know where all of this stuff might even be - now a former Dev after sale may be of some help.

Because not having it is a nice way to work to lower the purchase price.

I really like the way you're thinking on this!!   

[Ironwolf]

*IF* they bothered to archive anything from the development workstations/fileserver, I doubt they even know what they have. That tends to happen when you fire an entire development team all at once and don't keep anybody who knows how any of it was set up.

A former dev is only useful if they kept something they weren't supposed to, and if the terms of the license agreement negotiated as part of the IP purchase allow for the use of materials that were not included and presumed destroyed, but later recovered, while indemnifying the source who would otherwise be on the hook for IP theft and contract violation. Given the bad blood around the shutdown, getting NCsoft to agree to such a clause might be quite difficult.

My gut feeling is that NCsoft may not know the details of the development tools, does have the source code and knows where that is (source code repositories are easy to identify, and would have been a high profile thing to keep track of), but is not willing to part with it for any price due to internal politics. They probably have the source for the tools in the repo, but no one with the knowledge required to use it to compile binaries for them. Hence the server image, which is similar to how they license some of their games for third parties to operate in Europe.

I agree NCSoft - at least the guys who have it now likely have no idea what they even have beyond the source code and little to no desire to unpack all the stuff to find it. To be fair the people they have at the dead storage department are likely not coders just basically file clerks.

[Ankhammon]

I agree NCSoft - at least the guys who have it now likely have no idea what they even have beyond the source code and little to no desire to unpack all the stuff to find it. To be fair the people they have at the dead storage department are likely not coders just basically file clerks.

They're not file clerks, they are Configuration Management specialists.

[Surelle]

*IF* they bothered to archive anything from the development workstations/fileserver, I doubt they even know what they have. That tends to happen when you fire an entire development team all at once and don't keep anybody who knows how any of it was set up.

A former dev is only useful if they kept something they weren't supposed to, and if the terms of the license agreement negotiated as part of the IP purchase allow for the use of materials that were not included and presumed destroyed, but later recovered, while indemnifying the source who would otherwise be on the hook for IP theft and contract violation. Given the bad blood around the shutdown, getting NCsoft to agree to such a clause might be quite difficult.

My gut feeling is that NCsoft may not know the details of the development tools, does have the source code and knows where that is (source code repositories are easy to identify, and would have been a high profile thing to keep track of), but is not willing to part with it for any price due to internal politics. They probably have the source for the tools in the repo, but no one with the knowledge required to use it to compile binaries for them. Hence the server image, which is similar to how they license some of their games for third parties to operate in Europe.

Well yeah, even En Masse, who publishes Tera in North America, runs only a server image.  (I would image Trion's publishing of ArchAge in NA is much the same, as evidenced by all the hacking and botting running amok there, with Trion powerless to do anything except watch and wait for patches.)

  En Masse waits for all patches and changes to come from Bluehole Studios in South Korea and En Masse only does the English localizations, blah blah.  I know it's that way with NCSoft for Aion NA and Lineage 2 NA, too; NCWest can't make any changes whatsoever and just runs a server image that is patched when NC South Korea gets around to it.  NCWest just does English localizations as well.

[DocHornet]

They're not file clerks, they are Configuration Management specialists.

They're top men...TOP men. 

[Harpospoke]

I don't know... that's sayin a lot.   

Here's how I've looked at this news since the day it hit.   I've worked in software now for 20 years (scary thought) and in all that time there is only one thing I have 100% learned to count on.  Nothing is ever a done deal until it's out the door and shipped - and even that is pushing it. 

But that doesn't mean you don't push forward.  If you don't nothing gets done.  Nothing gets shipped.  No software ever gets made.  I've worked for companies that had the money, the resources, the legal, the you name it - to do anything they wanted and make it happen if they wanted to - with total backing from all the way up the chain on a project, only to come in one morning and see the ever so bright project - shelved.  I've also seen them go from having nothing going on, to completed and out the door in 3 months.

There are no done deals.  Ever.  There are no closed deals.  Ever.  The only thing you can rely on is that if someone, somewhere, has the drive and the ambition, a bit of luck and a hell of a lot of moxy driving to something they really want, then it can happen, and often does. 

You've got a lot of people wanting to make this happen.  You've got people working very hard and doing it right - they're not being children and demanding.  They're showing the right amount of interest and attention, they're speaking to the right people, and they're capable of not blinking.  They understand that the people who hold the cards in this aren't on their time table and aren't on their schedule.  We need to understand that too. 

Patience sucks.  It's hard to be a good fisherman, a good hunter, or a good businessman.  You have to set things in motion and wait.  Nudge them along.  Wait.  Look for when things are too quiet and nudge a bit more.  Wait. 

When the moment is right ... you get what you want.  Hearing nothing is good.  There are only two sounds you need to listen for... the sound of someone giving up, and the sound for someone saying "Yes".  The rest, is just patience and background noise.

Ironwolf and all the folks who have worked so hard for so long on this have earned a lot of trust and respect for good reasons.  My thanks to them for their dedication and patience.

Very nice logical post, Mike.

[GN2]

Please realize if I do get curt - it is because I have answered the same questions often hundreds of times. I try answering them in different ways and yet in many cases people just read what they want to read. I know you aren't aware but you get everything from let me buy you stuff to threats to come to your house and attack you.

In between we have a deal going but many of the questions about servers and finance - I want to know myself

Sorry for replying late to this (I don't get a lot of chance to actually read these threads), but don't take it the wrong way. Nothing wrong with getting a little short in an environment like this. If anything, it makes me respect you for dealing with it instead of writing a long soliloquy about how terrible the community is and calling it quits.

No matter how the deal ends up going, I do have respect for you willing to step up and be *the guy*. I've been in that position before on community projects, and I know how rough it can be.

On a more relevant to the current discussion note: Mike pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[Volcanichic]

                                                              Wall'o text incoming!!!!     Fair warning!!!!!

 I have many hopes and fears for everything involved from the return of COX to the successor projects alike. And like Agge said,this is the place for them .You may not share in the same feelings,but it doesn't make them less valid. Or mean that I'm the only one who feels this way.

 I'll preface this by saying I still to this day use Icon to dream up characters. I have a folder of saved costumes and documents with lists of heroes , villains and fully fleshed out stories and bio's enough so to probably be able to write my own book or comic series .     As hard as I tried to get into CO, DCUO and MUO. I just couldn't . There was only one hero game in my book.

 I've also owned 3 versions of COX . An older release of CoH. Good vs Evil Combined Edition. And CoH Going Rogue Complete Collection Edition.

  The return of CoH

 NCsoft and their involvement in the return of CoX or (getting their hands on)any successor project through licensing rather than just sell the IP is probably the scariest thing for me. I think it would be best if the successor projects steer clear of any involvement of NCsoft for their own best interest.
 
  Why? History!!! When I think of NCsoft I cant help but think of all the shady nonsense, poor and underhanded business practices of the past.  Once they have any right to it, they can decide to pull the plug then sue if you continue to work on it as your own company or go after you like they did to Bluehole Studios.

 When the NCsoft white knights keep coming to the forum saying " lets not talk bad about NCsoft so we don't anger them and cause them to walk away"   You know you have reason for concern!!!! They have proven to be spiteful and rash for no sensible reason.

  Ironwolf (not trying to pick on ya Wolf,,these things just poke me in the side,,I usually do enjoy your posts) posted in this thread," This exact attitude is what ended the first deal, that people injected negative attitudes instead of positive and thankful ones" 

 When at the time all that was supposedly needed was just one signature. You call this respectable  business?

 And "The game does not belong to you. NCSoft does not have to sell it or even talk to us - but because we have remained respectful and have not sent 10,000 letters and masks - but stayed above the fray and let the deal work - they are slowly concluding it. At NCSoft speed. "

So you're above us regular folks who believe in voicing their opinion , making a stand or send a massage and that's why the first deal fell through? Please!!! Walk on all the eggshells you want.

Thankful? For pulling the plug on a game the was doing well in NA even by Matt Millers own words?

 And again back to NCsoft Shady moves.  They have a lawsuit thats still ongoing against Bluehole Studios to stop them from releasing Tera because they knew it was going to be a threat.  Things are still being hashed out and parts of the suit were tossed out . The only thing that stuck was the criminal case against 4 former devs who "stole" code.  Nobody can even prove that any of that code was used in Tera which is why that part of the case was tossed by Korean courts.

 In a case filled against En Masse and BHstudios in the US,along with the same issues that were tossed out in the Korean courts claim is that Tera will cause NCsoft a loss of revenue in the region and compete directly against them with the aid of former employee's with inside information and tech in NA and will see significant loss as a result. Even tho the only real success they had in the US was COH. And their the ones who pulled the plug causing the loss there.

http://tsi.brooklaw.edu/sites/tsi.brooklaw.edu/files/filings/ncsoft-corporation-et-al-v-bluehole-studio-inc-et-al/20120109ncsoft-corporation-et-al-v-bluehole-studio-inc-et-alcomplaint.pdf

 So is it possible they pulled the plug on the game November 30th 2012 so they could go into a court with a graph chart pointing out loss of revenue in NA that closely coincides with the release of Tera in May 1st 2012 ,just so they can win in court?

 Well,,you'd say no ,they wouldn't be dumb or crazy enough to do that. Yet this is the same company that forged a letter of resignation of former lead developer Richard Garriott .

 The same company that was "one signature away" from selling COH in a first deal but walked away because of "This exact attitude is what ended the first deal, that people injected negative attitudes instead of positive and thankful ones".

 A company that would shut down and sit on Tabula Rasa rather than sell it to Richard Garriott  when he offered to buy it.
What company would sit on an IP rather than sell it off to make money back off of it?

 Is it possible they would string a bunch a fans along trying to make something of the IP and return of the game? Sure ,why not? More so if they were so hurt by comments posted online to walk away from one early deal why wouldn't they make someone jumps through hoops for something they know they will never give them. Or secondly why not let the stupid American fans do all the labor and work while they sit back and make money from it without putting up a cent?

 They make rash decisions it seems and ones that make zero business sense.

 Put trust and faith in them? Fool me once,shame on you,fool me twice,,well.

 Now I know there's a group of people involved from both here at Titan as well as from some of the other successor projects who I'm sure have better details than the rest of us at this point. But we all wonder the same things.

 Now...... what if the game returns? We hear it will be issue 23. With all data gone. So... if I want to play and start a character in Praetoria I have to buy Going Rogue? Again?  Or could I just enter my original retail code somewhere to get my unlocks for all my Going Rogue Complete Edition costumes ,powers and Praetorian access? As well as my Good vs Evil unlocks? What about things I actually paid for in the shop or earned unlocks? Fork over money a second time to get those again?

 I really hope these things are being considered because if it means handing NCsoft money for things I've already paid for a second time,well... I think some people may be in for a rude awakening. Both on the gamer and company side of things. Not to mention people could fork over money for these things a second time just to see NCsoft decide their not pulling in money fast enough and have another company realignment and pull the plug again.

 Had a lot more to touch on like successors and community but this is already long enough and my Emp/Psi can already foresee the groans of "sorry TLDR" .

[rebel 1812]

  Ironwolf (not trying to pick on ya Wolf,,these things just poke me in the side,,I usually do enjoy your posts) posted in this thread," This exact attitude is what ended the first deal, that people injected negative attitudes instead of positive and thankful ones" 

 When at the time all that was supposedly needed was just one signature. You call this respectable  business?

 

This is something I think rings true for alot of us.  How many of us can go to their boss and say they turned away business for the company because they were given attitude?  Yet having worked in Korea, I know business elite their are above the laws and so act like little kings.  That doesn't mean I have to respect them or bow to them.

[Kelltick]

Yet having worked in Korea, I know business elite their are above the laws and so act like little kings.  That doesn't mean I have to respect them or bow to them.

But if you want something from them, doesn't that mean you kind of have to?  Just saying...

[Volcanichic]

But if you want something from them, doesn't that mean you kind of have to?  Just saying...

 It means if you were stuck with the option of dealing with them the first time,,,you would be leery of dealing with them again in the future if at all.

[Ironwolf]

It means if you were stuck with the option of dealing with them the first time,,,you would be leery of dealing with them again in the future if at all.

Then their would be no return of City of Heroes.

You don't know all of what happened in the first deal and I am not throwing anyone under the bus. Business is not personal, you are taking this personally. You don't trust them, however you also aren't in on the deal and neither am I.

I don't want to be "in the know" - I want the group to do as they have been doing - act like grown ups and be respectful and thankful that a huge multi-national multi-billion dollar company will make a deal with start up companies.

I know some of you can't get past your anger at NCSoft - fair enough. I have repeatedly tried to tell you that NCSoft is not spiteful about the game. In the last days some of the folks dealing with NCSoft burned a lot of bridges and as I have said before - I will never sell the game to you - is not the same as I will never sell the game.

Enough time passed and people changed to have a new group go in and make an offer. NCSoft said maybe, wait a bit until we get this new product out the door - then they started dealing and making arrangements. I can't change your mind on NCSoft, that's up to you. All I can say is the first group angered NCSoft and so it all fell apart. Now another team is doing this the way NCSoft has asked for.

Do you want the game back or not?

[Volcanichic]

Then their would be no return of City of Heroes.

You don't know all of what happened in the first deal and I am not throwing anyone under the bus. Business is not personal, you are taking this personally. You don't trust them, however you also aren't in on the deal and neither am I.

I don't want to be "in the know" - I want the group to do as they have been doing - act like grown ups and be respectful and thankful that a huge multi-national multi-billion dollar company will make a deal with start up companies.

I know some of you can't get past your anger at NCSoft - fair enough. I have repeatedly tried to tell you that NCSoft is not spiteful about the game. In the last days some of the folks dealing with NCSoft burned a lot of bridges and as I have said before - I will never sell the game to you - is not the same as I will never sell the game.

Enough time passed and people changed to have a new group go in and make an offer. NCSoft said maybe, wait a bit until we get this new product out the door - then they started dealing and making arrangements. I can't change your mind on NCSoft, that's up to you. All I can say is the first group angered NCSoft and so it all fell apart. Now another team is doing this the way NCSoft has asked for.

Do you want the game back or not?

 And again from our other debate thread :p (always fun to quote yourself :p)

 "So this company deemed NA and a game that was popular here enough to still be profitable( according to its own head dev Matt Miller) as unworthy of their time enough to pull the plug. But their fine with making money off of it as long as the fan base is willing to front the cost and assume all the risk while they control , oversee it and make money off of it without putting up a dime?"

 Taking it personally? No! Making a consumer decision? Yes!  And based on things from the past involving the companies shady past the bullet points of which I pointed out in an earlier in this thread. Along with whats posted above,,it all just feels shady. And again,that's just from my point of view. Maybe others will feel the same way? Maybe they wont and fork money over . I don't know.

 Do I want CoH back? Yes! Do I want it back while repaying for things I've already paid for while the main company and reason why its gone is still involved ? No! Why? Because whats stopping them from making money a second time then yanking the lease ?

 And like I said, maybe more details will be known as time goes on and as the game releases to change my mind. Maybe it wont. I really hope all the bases are being covered and really cant see why it wouldn't be possible to re-enter retail box codes or if that avenue was even addressed.  I'm hopeful ,but very leery .Not pounding you or anyone else over the head to think what I feel. Just sharing my fears concerning the whole deal . As I said before ,if people are ok with it then rock on and toss all your money at it. For some it might not.
 

[Ironwolf]

I give up - you must be right its all an NCSoft plot. Move on to another game.