Open World PvP

[LuxunS]

I noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP.  I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?

Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?

City of Heroes, more than most games is suited to open world PvP, since it would make sense thematically.  A majority of players even PvPers were not happy with the way PvP was implemented in CoH, but with proper implementation open PvP could add depth, entertainment, and variety to the game.   I'm not trying to start a flame war, or convince everyone that open PvP is a good idea.  I'm genuinely curious why that consistently seemed to be such a deal breaker.

[FlyingCarcass]

I don't get it either. As you said, thematically it makes perfect sense, would appeal to a good number of players, and it would've made use of the Paragon overworld.

Assuming players would have a mechanism to choose whether or not to participate in open pvp (i.e. separate servers or the ability to flag oneself for PvP), the only reason I could think of why someone would be against it is he or she is just vehemently against any PvP taking place.

[AmberOfDzu]

I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?

Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?

You ask a fair question, and it's worth an honest answer. For me, it's "None of the Above".

All of those you suggest are actually good reasons, but none of those would be what stops me from PvP'ing. I can see how they could make it less enjoyable, or actually are real concerns for me, but the real reason is harder to express. I've been through discussions on this topic in the past, especially in other games I've tried since CoH closed, and I believe my answer here is one enough others share that it's not "just me". I suspect it's a lot more common than most PvP'ers believe, and it cuts to something more fundamental that a PvP'er will have difficulty accepting as even possible.

I've PvP'd before, and done fairly well at it. But it always feels like murder to me.

When I fight another player's avatar in a game, especially one that gives me that sense of immersion, something in the back of my mind flips and says to me: "This is wrong, we don't intentionally hurt other people. Stop it now." Strange, isn't it? It's just pixels and data structures; I know that, you know that, just about everyone knows that. But that reaction is still there. I can force myself through it if there's enough motivation, but it's not something I can enjoy; it's fundamentally unpleasant, even when I win.

I've spoken to other non-PvP'ers about this, but not enough to wave my hands and presume to give proportions. But some give reasons like the ones the OP offered in the first post in this thread, others find in mildly unpleasant along the lines I've given, and for a few (I met two) it was so bad it would make them physically ill.

For me, I can PvP with a lot of mental preparation in advance, and for a good outside motivation. But I don't seek it out, and generally avoid it whenever possible. I can fight player-controlled NPCs without a problem; if a GM possesses a mob and starts directing its moves, no trouble at all. It's even more fun. But if the back of my mind decides it's a personification of the player, then the fun's over, and I'm just trying to get it over with as fast as possible.

I wouldn't care if Open-World PvP were a ruleset on a server, or even on most of them. But if it was the only kind of server, I would have to pass on that game.

[Codewalker]

/t LuxunS, dual me
/t LuxunS, dual me
/t LuxunS, y u have pvp off?!?!?!
/t LuxunS, dual me
[Tell] --> LuxunS: Dude, it's spelled 'duel'
/t LuxunS, stfu noob!
/t LuxunS, duel me!
/t LuxunS, duel me now!
/t LuxunS, flag dammit
LuxunS is ignoring you.
/t FlyingCarcass, duel me
/t FlyingCarcass, flag pvp!
/t FlyingCarcass, u scared?

...

[FlyingCarcass]

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.

[blacksly]

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.

Don't a lot of other MMOs block opposed parties from sending tells to each other?

Now, I have one major problem regarding open-world PvP. And this comes from someone who played UO back in the golden age of PKing, when you were dry looted and such:

The problem is simple. This is a GAME. Not a story, not real life. In real life, stuff happens. In stories, there are times when the story has an overwhelming force for or against the protagonists, and plot line has them winning or losing or avoiding the fight, and in any case what matters is the story overall.

But in a game, you don't want to accept "you had no chance there when you got ganked 6 on 1, but it's part of the good vs evil story". A game is, like a sport, meant to be a reasonable challenge, where you have a reasonable chance both of winning and of losing. Arena PvP gives you a reasonable chance by making sure that the sides are evenly matched at least in numbers, and that everyone is ready and prepared to fight. But that is not true in open-world PvP.

CoH open world PvP has a slight advantage in that you can switch to a PvP build reasonably quickly, and that it's limited to a few specific areas rather than most of the world, but it still allows some very unfair situations. Fighting turrets to get a Shivan when two enemies attack you from a distance. Getting attacked 3:1 or worse. Heck, as PKers from UO know, just getting the jump on a target that is not prepared for a fight to begin, is a huge advantage even if the sides are otherwise even.

Duels are not really a problem. Open-world ganking of unprepared or outnumbered opponents is a problem. It creates situations of almost automatic win and lose, and while that is realistic and reasonable in a story, it's not a good concept in a game unless the game is a strong-RP game, which means that it accepts unfair situations in the name of realistic roleplaying. CoH is not such a game, though, so highly unbalanced fights do not belong in it.

[AmberOfDzu]

Don't a lot of other MMOs block opposed parties from sending tells to each other?

I think the reference was to same-side duel challenges. Most of the MMO's I've recently tried that support PvP allow for "blue vs blue" dueling, even in many non-PvP areas.

[Brightfires]

My "other game" is Aion, which I've played off and on since the first NA closed beta... So, yeah. I've had to deal with the good, the bad and the ugly of open-world PvP. What I've found out is that I hate pretty much everything about it. Yes, I can hold my own and yes, I'm still an unapologetic "carebear".

I don't like the limitations that it puts on how you can build a character and what gear/scrolls/pots you "must-have or die a scrub".
I don't like the constant threat of attack when all I want to do is grind some mobs or gather some crafting materials.
I don't like what it does to the game's community. (Be honest. You guys all know that some of your fellow PvPers are total raving ass-hats. <_< ) 
... and I don't like that it essentially gives griefers a free pass to absolutely ruin other players' fun. ("Because PvP!")

So, yeah. Count me as one of those people who would give a CoH revival with open-world PvP a pass. If I want to dodge foul-mouthed, over-geared twinks, I'll do it with my Songweaver or my Templar. I don't want to deal with that crap while I'm trying to collect badges on my Tank, or finish a street hunt with my Stalker. <_<

[LadyVamp]

I noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP.  I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?

I feel the same as AmberOfDzu does.  Except, I suck at pvp and frankly I think it's wrong.  I just don't get into the let's pull down our pants, pull out the ruler and measure our real estate to see who's got more idea.  That's what pvp is to me.  My characters are me.  I am them.  I would never attack a player character as I feel that's hurtful to other players.  I realize not everyone sees it my way.  A world wide pvp server does make sense for those who enjoy it.  I just wouldn't play on it. 

[Paragon Avenger]

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.

I was playing CO, yeah my first mistake.
Anyway, this guy invites me to team.
Then about 4 or 5 times sends a PvP challenge.
I'm new to CO, and I probably don't have my toon built right.
So I refuse.
Finally, just to shut him up, I accept.
He kills me.
He then sends a friend request.

[Ankhammon]

My "other game" is Aion, which I've played off and on since the first NA closed beta... So, yeah. I've had to deal with the good, the bad and the ugly of open-world PvP. What I've found out is that I hate pretty much everything about it. Yes, I can hold my own and yes, I'm still an unapologetic "carebear".

I don't like the limitations that it puts on how you can build a character and what gear/scrolls/pots you "must-have or die a scrub".
I don't like the constant threat of attack when all I want to do is grind some mobs or gather some crafting materials.
I don't like what it does to the game's community. (Be honest. You guys all know that some of your fellow PvPers are total raving ass-hats. <_< ) 
... and I don't like that it essentially gives griefers a free pass to absolutely ruin other players' fun. ("Because PvP!")

So, yeah. Count me as one of those people who would give a CoH revival with open-world PvP a pass. If I want to dodge foul-mouthed, over-geared twinks, I'll do it with my Songweaver or my Templar. I don't want to deal with that crap while I'm trying to collect badges on my Tank, or finish a street hunt with my Stalker. <_<

This.

My example of the fun of open world pvp was from Lineage 2. Some jerk with a max level dwarf dressed like Santa that would spend each and every weekend sitting outside of the elven n00b zone and kill over and over anyone who left the city. It didn't matter if he was flagged and attacked by every npc there since they were 20 levels below him. He would kill them and then go back to attacking the new players.
I refused to play that game during the weekend.

Not to mention that CoH never lent itself to this kind of thing:
-Villains played in Rogue Island and Heroes started in Atlas.
-CoH pvpers used highly strained character builds utilizing burst damage that often left the character useless in other situations.
-Many PVPers were quite upset when pvp got "fixed" and several even left the game. I think a lot of them would look to have things changed once again when they figure out that their fire blaster could no long run up with impunity and destroy any defender they saw.
-AP was used as a social gathering place and if it was an open PVP zone it would largely ruin that aspect of the game.


And the Spiritmaster was easily the best character in Aion, IMO. Loved the whole dot/debuff/pet tank nature of it. Can we port those over to CoH instead of the open world PVP? :)

[Angel Phoenix77]

I noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP.  I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?

Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?

City of Heroes, more than most games is suited to open world PvP, since it would make sense thematically.  A majority of players even PvPers were not happy with the way PvP was implemented in CoH, but with proper implementation open PvP could add depth, entertainment, and variety to the game.   I'm not trying to start a flame war, or convince everyone that open PvP is a good idea.  I'm genuinely curious why that consistently seemed to be such a deal breaker.

I am sorry but I disagree, I do not want open world pvp. I play to have fun not get ganked by a higher levels when I am hunting or moving to a different missions. So for me it is griefing.
All of my characters  have always been made to be competitive in pve, I have never given thought on making a character build for pvp.

[Codewalker]

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.

Anyone who's passed through Goldshire knows what I'm talking about.

[Dollhouse]

Fallen Earth handled open world PvP superbly. Outside of the well-marked PvP zones, you have to be flagged for PvP in order to be targetable by other players, and even then only by characters from your "nemesis" faction and their two allied "shoulder" factions (6-faction game...). You can duel players from your own and allied factions, but not fight them in open (or zone) PvP.

It works well. When not flagged for PvP, it's not at all immersion-breaking to have a fight break out. You can just ignore it, or for a roleplayer like me, take cover (even though you can't be harmed). It adds to the atmosphere for me, given the game's setting and overall very, very high immersion level. If flagged, you're always looking over your shoulder...which for me is just perfect in a post-apocalypse setting. My main character in that game was (or is...I just haven't logged on in a long time) part of an informal agreement among players to always be flagged for PvP.

I think there are lessons to be learned from Fallen Earth's implementation of open world PvP. It can be done in a way that's fun and doesn't ruin immersion. I think it's an easier task in that kind of setting (post-apocalypse) than in a comic superhero setting, but it could certainly be done. I'd have gladly done open world PvP in CoH (prior to the i13 utter ruin, er...reworking of PvP (I dumped PvP like a hot coal after that travesty).

[Novapulse]

When I fight another player's avatar in a game, especially one that gives me that sense of immersion, something in the back of my mind flips and says to me: "This is wrong, we don't intentionally hurt other people. Stop it now." Strange, isn't it? It's just pixels and data structures; I know that, you know that, just about everyone knows that. But that reaction is still there. I can force myself through it if there's enough motivation, but it's not something I can enjoy; it's fundamentally unpleasant, even when I win.

I've spoken to other non-PvP'ers about this, but not enough to wave my hands and presume to give proportions. But some give reasons like the ones the OP offered in the first post in this thread, others find in mildly unpleasant along the lines I've given, and for a few (I met two) it was so bad it would make them physically ill.

For me, I can PvP with a lot of mental preparation in advance, and for a good outside motivation. But I don't seek it out, and generally avoid it whenever possible. I can fight player-controlled NPCs without a problem; if a GM possesses a mob and starts directing its moves, no trouble at all. It's even more fun. But if the back of my mind decides it's a personification of the player, then the fun's over, and I'm just trying to get it over with as fast as possible.

Hey Amber :) Thanks for this, it's something I've tried to put into words for years now, and you have summed it up rather nicely.

[Aggelakis]

I generally don't like PVP at all. Humans are much more clever and inventive than critters (obviously, since critters cannot be either), and I prefer less clever and inventive solutions to my gaming 'problems' (including "there's a dude here; kill him").

Twice I enjoyed PVP in City:
1. Before Inventions, I farmed a couple levels in Recluse's Victory on my main, by casting Grant Invisibility on a Heavy and then running around the zone, killing Arachnos and bombing turrets, "innocently" provoking attacks of opportunity by hostile players. Then my Heavy would eat them for breakfast :)
2. My gaming group/channel organized a PVP ring that aimed at everyone getting just generally "better" - it was occasionally a free-for-all, occasionally tiered brackets, and generally kinda fun. I only participated a couple times (because, as stated before, I prefer less clever enemies) but it was interesting.

[MWRuger]

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never had anyone spam duel requests in other MMOs.

It wasn't a duel request, but some asshat who wanted me to "race" him around Atlas park. At was at Wents and he wouldn't take no for an answer until someone else in the Auction house said: "DUDE! He said no. Much more nicely than I would. Go away."

So I could easily see that conversation happening with Open world PvP.

[MWRuger]

I'm so turned off by the PvP culture that I can't imagine an implementation that I would enjoy. All the things on your list are some of the reasons but really (even though I am sure that they are exceptions) PvP is generally unpleasant. Having it exiled to it's own zones where I never have to see or hear it suits me just fine.

But since they are getting a compiled copy of 123 (assuming success) it won't be an issue. With no way to make changes to the game, open world PvP will be a "happy" dream for some other MMO that I would never play.

[Drauger9]

I noticed in the If City of Heroes came back what might stop you? thread that many people said open world PvP.  I'm curious, what about open world PvP are people so against?

Is it ...
... a worry about PvP rules/restrictions spilling over into PvE?
... griefing, or the attitudes/mentality of some members of the PvP community?
... PvP rewards aren't sufficient for the time/challenge?
... characters have to be built much differently to be effective in PvP vs PvE?

City of Heroes, more than most games is suited to open world PvP, since it would make sense thematically.  A majority of players even PvPers were not happy with the way PvP was implemented in CoH, but with proper implementation open PvP could add depth, entertainment, and variety to the game.   I'm not trying to start a flame war, or convince everyone that open PvP is a good idea.  I'm genuinely curious why that consistently seemed to be such a deal breaker.

I didn't read any of the previous comments before posting this. LOL!

I'm not completely against open world pvp but I think that if COH did have it. They should have specific servers for it, like WOW does. I actually enjoy open world pvp on certain games.

With that said, the reason I personally don't want open world pvp in COH is this. TFs are loooooong and when doing a TF, the last thing I want is to get ganked and camped. Which in turn would most likely get me kicked from a team.

In WOW, when I first started playing level 60s would camp the lowbie starting areas. I played WOW for about 30 mins before I logged and didn't return for years after that experience. I don't want that to happen in COH.

I love pvping in WOW it's quick and easy once you figure out what your doing. But I don't like the pvp community in pretty much every game I've ever played. Their immature, arrogant, and generally bad sports all around. So when I pvp in "any" game, I don't join guilds, I close my chat window and I do my best (after I learn how pvp works in the game and what my role is in a pvp setting).

The pvp community is so bad in WOW, that I actually use to joke with a friend of mine. That we should make a chat based game called Trollcraft. When all they could do is type insults to each other and get xp based on word combinations. LOL!

This is the reason why I don't want open world pvp in COH. Honestly there near the end of COH, I started closing my chat window because the pvpers would sit around Atlas park hurling insults at each other in zone chat.

[Taceus Jiwede]

PvP just leaves me angry.  I am decent at it but man it keeps my blood boiling.  I don't like being that angry.

But I wouldn't care if CoH had open PVP as long as it had a flag toggle.