Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?

[Sekoia]

Even if we were to succeed in giving B&S a rating that would cause retailers to avoid carrying it, what have we achieved?  We've lowered the potential playerbase of one game in NCsoft's library, and possibly earned some enmity from its playerbase, which doesn't do our cause any favors in the long run.  To be blunt, I feel we have better options.

That's an excellent point: if we were to somehow manage to get B&S an adult rating, we're likely to piss off a lot of its playerbase. We really don't want to alienate other gamers, we want their support.

Plus it'd be easy for this to be portrayed in a negative light. One could very easily say we're trying to sabotage the game using underhanded means in retaliation for them closing City. Even if we would argue that isn't the case, if it looks that way (or can be made to look that way), we suddenly look like the bad guys and NCsoft looks like the victim.

Personally, I don't think they should be listening to outside input when making these ratings anyway. The ratings should be made impartially. You can't be impartial if you're listening to public opinion.

[LydiaFrost]

I agree with Kaiser Tarantula here.

Im German, and i dont undestand the fixtation Amercians have with sex in their Art,TV. I remember that Whitney Houston got banned from performing, because her partner torned down her shirt, so that a breast was viewable. I really didnt understand that reaction, and I dont like my Games, Art Videos to be censored because of American prudity ( we usually need to play the US Version of MMOs ).

On the other hand I disliked B&S because of the violence shown in the official Video, and if it gets an 18+ Rateing because of that I totally agree. But I dont want it to be removed from the game to get a lower rating. I think the Game itself represents a certain look at the Martial Arts Genre with bloody Action, and scantly clad Women, that stands as a work of Art. I dont need to buy it, but if I do, I want the original, not some butchered thing, where someone as big Parent told me, we removed the parts that were bad for you in our higher opinion.

We had entartete Kunst (degenerate Art) and we burned Books already in our History. I dont want anybody to difame such things for me. Im old enough for my own decisions.

I wanted to write something like this also in the thread where VV wanted to get Womans Rights Groups on B&S.
That would be the same kind of censorship, where people think, their view of the world is the only right one and impose that view on me.

And as I said, I dont understand the fixtation on sex. If you would rage because of violence. I would perhaps be less opposed.

[Victoria Victrix]

Well the ERSB rating is fundamentally useless.  And I don't go for censorship.

However turning loose the wrath of special interest groups on NCSoft is, IMHO, a delightful idea.  Force them to deal with rabid letters from prudes and irate feminists by the bushel-full.  Watch their bewilderment as they are raked over the coals in feminist and parental blogs.  Watch all those negative posts add up to unhappy stock-owners who don't understand that all the nasty posts in the world aren't actually going to mean that anything is likely to be banned or censored.  It's certainly a hobby I plan to pursue.

[TimtheEnchanter]

I wanted to write something like this also in the thread where VV wanted to get Womans Rights Groups on B&S. That would be the same kind of censorship, where people think, their view of the world is the only right one and impose that view on me.

And as I said, I dont understand the fixtation on sex. If you would rage because of violence. I would perhaps be less opposed.

Angry women sending letters to NCsoft is censorship? Pardon?

[Victoria Victrix]

Angry women sending letters to NCsoft is censorship? Pardon?

Yeah, I don't get it either. 

Unless LydiaFrost is somehow confusing the idea of protest with censorship.  People are perfectly free to get as irate as they care to and write metric tons of angry letters about something they don't like--religious groups in the US have been doing that in a semi-organized fashion since the 1900s.  Granted, that's how we ended up with the motion picture code and the comic books code as well as the ERSB, but neither of those meant anything got censored, it meant viewing/buying was age-restricted.  Protest is not censorship.  Protest, frankly, rarely results in censorship since...roughly...the 1960s.

But companies feel an urgent need to deal with mass protest, especially if they think that means sales will be affected.  And I would love to see NCSoft scrambling to deal with, not just tens of thousands of protestors (us), but hundreds of thousands, or even millions.  And they thought having to put on an extra mail clerk to send our SaveCoH letters to the incinerator was bad....

Also, @LydiaFrost...feminists are not prudes.  It's not that feminists object to the sex implied in Bits and Tits.  It's that they object to women being reduced to nothing but objects only for sexual titillation.  Which, frankly, I do, too.  It's not the display, it's the intent behind the display.

[CapaDevans]

I remember that Whitney Houston got banned from performing, because her partner torned down her shirt, so that a breast was viewable.

Do you mean the Janet Jackson in the middle of the Superbowl incident? She didn't get banned; the network was fined as I recall.

I really didnt understand that reaction, and I dont like my Games, Art Videos to be censored because of American prudity ( we usually need to play the US Version of MMOs ).

I'm British and while the American censors do seem more bothered with sex, while we are more concerned with violence, that doesn't make them prudes. It means they have differing values. Compared to dress codes/behaviour in some countries, the US and UK are positive havens of depravity.

On the other hand I disliked B&S because of the violence shown in the official Video, and if it gets an 18+ Rateing because of that I totally agree. But I dont want it to be removed from the game to get a lower rating. I think the Game itself represents a certain look at the Martial Arts Genre with bloody Action, and scantly clad Women, that stands as a work of Art. I dont need to buy it, but if I do, I want the original, not some butchered thing, where someone as big Parent told me, we removed the parts that were bad for you in our higher opinion.

I do question how anime kiddie porn qualifies as Art; your mileage may vary. However, your argument about no big brother editing the content, only stands if you are willing to allow all subjects/portrayals in a game. Remember the one where the aim was to rape women? Suggesting that is inappropriate isn't behaving like a parent; it's good sense and common decency.

We had entartete Kunst (degenerate Art) and we burned Books already in our History.

Yes, I remember your history. It has impacted the whole of Europe on several occasions.

I dont want anybody to difame such things for me. Im old enough for my own decisions.

So am I and it's my decision that treating women like toys isn't something I want to encourage by giving money to companies who do it. It's my decision that I want to make it clear to companies who do that they are costing themselves money. I interact with a LOT of female players; don't underestimate their purchasing power nor their influence on their family or social groups. Ever seen mums network?

I wanted to write something like this also in the thread where VV wanted to get Womans Rights Groups on B&S.
That would be the same kind of censorship, where people think, their view of the world is the only right one and impose that view on me.

I don't want anyone's views imposed on me, but I think restricting my choice as to how I treat my body is a more important fight than allowing someone to objectify women in a computer game.

Let's be honest; a lot of parents don't look at what their kids are playing and they are growing up with the impression that it's ok to be obnoxious, violent, and women are just big breasts and walk like strippers. It's not appropriate and while I wouldn't want everything as PG 12, I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect certain topics to be restricted to adults.

And as I said, I dont understand the fixtation on sex. If you would rage because of violence. I would perhaps be less opposed.

Because people expect violence in computer games; even cartoon violence. They don't expect characters to look like anime kids, dressed as hookers and walking like a stripper.

[LuchRi]

Honestly VV as I said before, taking the wrong kind of stand could simply give NCsoft more weapons to use. I can understand how nice it would be to get people up in arms at it for this or that, but aside from a few fringe news organizations that don't seem to realize sexuality in video games is old hat... it is not that big of a deal. Really if we are going to go after NCsoft we have plenty of other angles that we can, and do, hit. Past behavior that borders on the edge of criminal, Negligence towards stockholders, a shockingly poor foreign market strategy that from what they tell us is the basis of their long term expansion. This is the second largest game company in Korea and they are making mistakes that you would expect to see out of some poorly directed start up trying to make a flash-based competitor to Adventurequest. The only difference is that they luck out with studios that often know what they are doing and aside from shutdown seem to keep a set level of autonomy.

I will say that one of the key things I have found so refreshing about this whole protest thus far is that the CoH community have conducted themselves with the same civility and maturity that made it so wonderful. we are not out to be spiteful or childish. We cannot let ourselves sink to the level of others. Maybe the problem has been a lack of metaphorical volume on our part, but the message should stay the same. We are not attacking NCsoft for revenge but to send a message that what they did was wrong. We are the customers. We pay the bills, we keep the lights on and we are entitled to a great deal more respect than we are getting. Maybe CoH was not the biggest slice of pie they had but a company is beholden to us like any other should be. They refuse to uphold their end of the contract by shutting us down and shutting us out. We cannot simply stab maliciously but must instead show that no business, be it makers of life saving pharmaceuticals or a game development firm, is too important or too frivolous to escape the social responsibility to the consumer.

[Victoria Victrix]

Again, it's not the sexuality that I (and other feminists) don't like.  It's the objectification.  Young men and boys that play games with the sort of portrayal of females that Bits and Tits has get the idea in their subconscious that women are just things that are around for them to play with however they want, and discard at will.

But that's just my opinion, and if it were not for the current situation I would just shake my head at the misogyny in their shiny new game and leave it at that--because reading more deeply about Korean popular culture and talking with a Korean friend of mine has me convinced this is pretty endemic to the Korean culture.

Using that as a weapon to pressure NCSoft into selling however...

They are not going to bring CoH back.  That's a dead horse.  Our only chance of getting it revived is to get it sold.  Our only chance of getting it sold is to put them under a heck of a lot of pressure.

I'm not saying only do this, that or the other.  I'm saying hit them with everything.   If you're not comfortable with "recruiting" Special Interest Group A to add to the pressure, well, I am, so all the bases are covered. 

[LuchRi]

--Warning: While I do not intend to offend anyone with the subject matter of the post below I will be speaking frankly about aspects of my life to illistrate my points. As such I advise discression with what you read below--

Video games on their own won't make men objectify women any more than they will make kids violent. Now admittedly my views on this are probably a bit skewed. I have a rather odd position being both a feminist and the dominant in a BDSM relationship. I am unashamed to say this and do so without any attempt to stir up some sort of sexual greifing or whatever other problems it may cause. Truth is I have always had dominant tendencies, always shown hints towards the lifestyle I lead now... But I also grew up in the presence of powerful women and learned to respect them. My mother, who worked at the family printing press and went to nursing school to support me, and who even now only quit working because her MS came out of remission while she was dealing with fibromialgia. My great grandmother who in her life did everything from missionary work in Hatti to teaching large classrooms full of kids. My stepmother who at this time is currently one of the social workers in charge of setting up a new clinic in our city, my grandmother who did freedom rides in her youth...

To be quite frank I have no problem with objectification. its on my list of 'likes' in the lifestyle to be frank. But at the same time I respect women, I think of them on an equal level. I don't think either gender is inherently superior and most importanlty that you DO NOT DISRESPECT WOMEN. Why? It wasn't because I was not exposed to imagery like in blade and soul. I was building a secret stash of the most hardcore and shocking hentai you could imagine off the schools computers when I was 13 (yes I got caught, it was all dealt with. Kids do these kinds of things and get in trouble when they hit puberty). I am that way because I was raised that way. I respect women, and minorities, and all people before meeting them because my parents taught me to, and taught me WHY I should. Because when I was a child they were patient and understanding and imparted more than rote dogma into me. If parents have a problem with blade and soul, then nobody is hiding what it is. Right now my parents have two sons much younger than myself. They are both in their teens. when they were younger they got games taken away if they were too violent and often asked me what they were about. They limit internet access to ensure they don't look up images they should not. All the same watching these things is not going to have the kind of impact that these studies you reference seem to imply that they will. I can tell you from my own story and the stories of countless friends, relatives, acquaintances and even random strangers i've known that how you nurture a child is the key and parents are the ones that should be making these decisions since they are the ones who have to ensure the child is brought up right.

"raise up thy children in the way they should go, and they will not stray from it"

P.S.

I know BDSM is not well understood, but just in case anyone thinks that dominants 'take advantage' of submissive, lil story for you.

Guy much bigger than me came in to my slave/Girlfriend's work two days ago and tired to scam her into activating three cell phones. Obviously she was not taken in, and when she refused to he started saying foul things, then took a swing at her. Guess who ended up on his back on the floor with a boot on his windpipe...

Thats my girl.

[DrakeGrimm]

--Warning: While I do not intend to offend anyone with the subject matter of the post below I will be speaking frankly about aspects of my life to illistrate my points. As such I advise discression with what you read below--

Video games on their own won't make men objectify women any more than they will make kids violent. Now admittedly my views on this are probably a bit skewed. I have a rather odd position being both a feminist and the dominant in a BDSM relationship. I am unashamed to say this and do so without any attempt to stir up some sort of sexual greifing or whatever other problems it may cause. Truth is I have always had dominant tendencies, always shown hints towards the lifestyle I lead now... But I also grew up in the presence of powerful women and learned to respect them. My mother, who worked at the family printing press and went to nursing school to support me, and who even now only quit working because her MS came out of remission while she was dealing with fibromialgia. My great grandmother who in her life did everything from missionary work in Hatti to teaching large classrooms full of kids. My stepmother who at this time is currently one of the social workers in charge of setting up a new clinic in our city, my grandmother who did freedom rides in her youth...

To be quite frank I have no problem with objectification. its on my list of 'likes' in the lifestyle to be frank. But at the same time I respect women, I think of them on an equal level. I don't think either gender is inherently superior and most importanlty that you DO NOT DISRESPECT WOMEN. Why? It wasn't because I was not exposed to imagery like in blade and soul. I was building a secret stash of the most hardcore and shocking hentai you could imagine off the schools computers when I was 13 (yes I got caught, it was all dealt with. Kids do these kinds of things and get in trouble when they hit puberty). I am that way because I was raised that way. I respect women, and minorities, and all people before meeting them because my parents taught me to, and taught me WHY I should. Because when I was a child they were patient and understanding and imparted more than rote dogma into me. If parents have a problem with blade and soul, then nobody is hiding what it is. Right now my parents have two sons much younger than myself. They are both in their teens. when they were younger they got games taken away if they were too violent and often asked me what they were about. They limit internet access to ensure they don't look up images they should not. All the same watching these things is not going to have the kind of impact that these studies you reference seem to imply that they will. I can tell you from my own story and the stories of countless friends, relatives, acquaintances and even random strangers i've known that how you nurture a child is the key and parents are the ones that should be making these decisions since they are the ones who have to ensure the child is brought up right.

"raise up thy children in the way they should go, and they will not stray from it"

P.S.

I know BDSM is not well understood, but just in case anyone thinks that dominants 'take advantage' of submissive, lil story for you.

Guy much bigger than me came in to my slave/Girlfriend's work two days ago and tired to scam her into activating three cell phones. Obviously she was not taken in, and when she refused to he started saying foul things, then took a swing at her. Guess who ended up on his back on the floor with a boot on his windpipe...

Thats my girl.

...yeeeaaaah, see, that's the problem though. Too many parents? Don't parent. They let TV, the internet, and video games raise their kids for them. They're -far- too busy to -actually- talk about important issues with their kids. Pffft.

[Victoria Victrix]

Actually we are on the same page.  The problem is not with kids who are brought up by parents who actually pay attention to what they are doing, online and off.  The problem is with kids who are brought up, for whatever reason, without that oversight, and the only role models they have for behavior, sexual or otherwise, is what they hear from friends, what they get from porn, and what they play in games that objectify women into mere disposable mindless toys. 

Again, my point here, is that bringing the attention of certain groups to the sexualization in Bits and Tits is a weapon, and I'm going to use it.  I offer that as a suggestion to others who would be similarly inclined to pursue that strategy.  If you don't want to, I'm not trying to persuade you to do so.  Doing so is certainly not going to cause any censorship, just a lot of attention on NCSoft of the sort the company doesn't want.  It's crystal clear that they don't understand the US and don't want to; getting barrels of irate letters from parent and feminist groups might well make them think they could face legal liabilities, and at the very least, it puts them in an uncomfortable position right before the launch of a game they hope is going to save their bacon.

If I thought that the ESRB rating meant anything, I'd use that too, but basically, it doesn't.  NCSoft will get most of their accounts via the net, where the rating won't matter since kids that want something are pretty smart about how to get around restrictions.

[LuchRi]

Well then their kids are going to be messed up no matter what they do. If it isn't blade and soul, it could be anything from Grand Theft auto at age 5 to flash hentai games off of random internet sites at 15. The ESRB can be a good tool, but in the end that is ALL it is, all it can be. A tool. you can't censor art for being in poor taste. You can only voice your view and teach your kids.

Plus as I said, an M rating could turn out to boost figures for B&S in the US market. It has worked before to boost a games sales. Heck look at how Capcom marketed Dead Space 2...

bad publicity can be spun into 'good' publicity very very quickly

[TimtheEnchanter]

LuchRi, BDSM person here as well. Though by most standards, my wife and I would probably be mocked for not being hardcore enough. But the official label aside, we're little sexual demons (with each other anyway) :p

However, I see the opposite side of this that one would expect. I believe anything can be good in moderation. That's just how I look at things. I look for balance, not one side of the scale slamming to the ground and causing the weights in the other end to go flying all over the place. If there is anything in our society that is blatantly NOT in moderation, it's sex. And addressing the censorship issue for a moment, if there's anything in entertainment that IS currently in danger of censorship, it's modesty and decency.

Oh, the parental argument... yes. One of the hundred defenses business uses to absolve itself of any responsibility for society. Yay. In spite of the fact that entertainment controls society, telling us what we like and what we don't like, what to wear, what to eat, how to act, etc. Now for the sake of being too one-sided, for a moment I'll assume that the average consumer is capable of outwitting modern marketing power (millions upon millions of dollars and an equal number of man hours spent on psychological research - cracking the human mind to find the best possible ways of manipulating it). But... that still doesn't enable the parents to do anything. Parents are never even there to say anything about what the kids do or don't do. That's another thing the modern world has guaranteed. Making the cost of living so high that both parents have to work, sometimes two jobs each. Ensuring that the kids are home be programmed by entertainment. And that's only the TV era I just described. Now throw in the information technology. A single device that every child has that plugs them into that system of programming 24 hours a day, and hooked up with all their peers at the same time to reinforce it. Gone are the days when peer pressure only happened at school or the playground. Now they can even pressure you when you're alone in your own room, telling you you're not good enough because (insert skanky pop star here) is prettier.

Yeah, parents are supposed to somehow be able to overcome all of that, when the only time they can even be home is for sleep. Completely unreasonable. But that's OK, right? Because we're saying it to protect the moral sovereignty of business?

Kids can still be conservative if they really want to be, right?



Yeah, they just have to go through 10x the effort. Or become recluses (not the cool spidery kind either).

[LuchRi]

I think my girl and I are in the same boat as you Tim... honestly the only 'hardcore' couples I know of just try too hard

I can really respect what you are trying to say, and to a point I can agree. However the way I see it you have hit on some larger problems in our society. Families in the middle class that once did fine on one income now REQUIRE two since people got two go get ahead or wives went out to work because they could back in the 60s. Great for womens lib which I will never badmouth but then our culture adjusted to it. And it goes both ways really since parents blame the media, media blames the parents. Personally I think that the parents are the heavy, but you are right htat it is not always a case of laziness. Often it is due to our culture which is long past due for a revision.

That said, I've seen parents do it. IT isn't easy, but it can work. When I lived with my mom she gave me all the attention she could when not working, and my Dad and Stepmom were always there for me even when they both had massively demanding jobs. Still are for my brothers even if the roles have changed a bit.

I could post a HUGE rant here both agreeing and disagreeing wtih the notion of responsibility in the media, the way we tend to push people with children to the edge in private sector culture and try to wring everything we can out of them, the expectations for boys and girls and so on. Honestly judging by your last post such a debate/discussion would be a blast were I not in a Tofurky coma right now.

All I can say in reply to your comment here without derailment is that perhaps its time for a change.

[LydiaFrost]

Thank you for your views on the matter,

since capa devans cut my post to easy to reply pieces i will honor it and answer some.

My Memory of the Janet Jackson event is vague, but now, that I knew what i searched, there is an entire paragraph on nipplegate. Its just, that i cant understand it, and as you can read in that article, it lead to a delayed transmission of live events, to better support instant censoring.
And that in the Land of the Free.

I accept cultural valusystems being different, but in violence, always someone gets hurt, whereas in sex usualy all have fun. That translates for me to: hurting people is more acceptable than having fun together, and getting that point always acrross through the american dominated Showbusiness market, doesnt help our social life in my opinion. 

I see Art in every creation. If its likeable or appropiate for public displays, is another question.

I agree with Victorya Vitrix here, that Art, that glorifies amoral behaivior or is hateful, is something that should be locked away, i dont think that it should be modified though.

Often you see companies, TV Networks and such censoring Films to get them a lower rating, so they can justify sending the resulting Film at prime time as a Blockbuster to rake in Advertisement money. The resulting films are often 10-20 min short of the original version and have jumps in the continuity that makes watching them a pain, especially if you have seen the original in the cinema years ago.

My point was, that such pressure leads to self censorship, and that makes the Piece less enjoyable and less original.
I rather have it labeld 18+ but original.

For me there is a differnce in the detailation and presentation of Violence, that matters.
For example, a few patches ago, if you defeated someone in CoH they fell an the ground and lay there in human possible body positions. Now they fold into impossible patterns on the ground twitching. I cant believe anymore, I arrested them. I beat them to Death, the way they look.
IN B&S the scene I found very bad, was when the big guy sat on the small and punched him repeatedly. that was needlessly brutal.

To sum it up, trying to force personal morals on people leads to censorship, and censorship is something for Dictatorships.

[Cinnder]

For example, a few patches ago, if you defeated someone in CoH they fell an the ground and lay there in human possible body positions. Now they fold into impossible patterns on the ground twitching.

I don't think that is intentional; it's just the broken knockback/knockdown physics that didn't get fixed before the closure was announced.

[Turjan]

I don't think that is intentional; it's just the broken knockback/knockdown physics that didn't get fixed before the closure was announced.

Indeed, it's the same physics bug that caused mobs to frequently get stuck in walls/warehouse shelves like they were covered in velcro, still possessing most of their hitpoints, but being rendered unable to move...and all the while their head kept rotating Exorcist style. And limbs too for that matter.

tbh I rather enjoyed that - always gave me a laugh, especially when it's a mob that was wont to give me trouble, like a Malta Sapper. "Not so clever now, eh?" I'd laugh at the screen, watching their limbs spin around uselessly as I beat on them

*ahem*

Anyway, back on topic...

I agree that it's not a good idea to attempt to actually influence the official rating of B&S in any way - that way lies censorship and the slide towards supression of freedom of speech. Remember, ESRB/PEGI ratings are not there to affect sales volumes. The folks deciding film/tv/game ratings in any given country make their decisions based on the laws governing those countries, and as such, the ratings they give should not be determined by the "court of public opinion".

Public opinion itself, however, is freely up for grabs...

Getting the attention of vocal organisations with certain views about the kind of material to be found in B&S is not intended to change the rating B&S gets - but what it can do is change the opinion of ordinary customers who may have been considering buying the game (regardless of its rating).

As has been said in this thread already, raising a game's rating can make it seem more attractive to folk who might fall outside of the age category listed - it's forbidden fruit, which makes it all the tastier to nibble on. That's pretty much the limit of what a changed rating would do.

To an extent though, lobby groups decrying something as "obscene", "degrading" or whatever can also have the same forbidden fruit effect, drawing attention to something that might otherwise not even have been noticed. However, the advantage of such lobby groups is that unlike a simple rating number on a tantalisingly unopened box, they can illustrate exactly why they're so outraged.

Sure, some of the same people who wanted to see inside the unopened box might get the same naugtiness buzz out of what the outrage groups say - but the key thing to remember here here is it's the attraction of the unknown that's the biggest pull to the curious. That's why they're curious in the first place after all! Remove the curiosity by exposing B&S as a dull game with gaudy body paint, and the appeal of the unknown is lessened.

[Victoria Victrix]

@LydiaFrost, at least in the US, I can tell you that no one is censoring films on TV for reasons of prudery.  What they ARE doing is cutting out the parts that the network deems "irrelevant" in order to insert the maximum number of commercials.  It's not "censoring to attract advertisers," it's "MAXIMIZING advertiser time"; most advertisers buy blocks of ad time in prime time slots, and with rare exceptions, single events such as the Super Bowl and the Olympics (which have advertising sold separately) they don't know where their advertisements will be placed, only that they will be placed in prime time.  (This can often lead to hilarious or horrifying moments when a singularly inappropriate ad follows a particular scene in a movie, such as certain scenes from Carrie being followed by feminine hygenie product ads).  Advertising during a movie is not an "event."  It's easier to make seamless transitions in prime time television shows than in a movie; TV shows know exactly how much of their hour or half hour is going to be devoted to ads.  Movies have to be shortened, and that is where you get someone who has to decide what isn't relevant to the plot who decides what scenes will be cut.  It has nothing to do with censorship.