Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: kiario on May 27, 2014, 05:08:07 AM
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Hey,
Do you think the CoH devs have the game still installed and are playing it in offline mode at home?
Then, how many are people are we that would throw out a larger sum to buy/rent the game to get it going again.
I would gladly spend maybe 1000$ to get it running again. If there are enough people, maybe something can be arranged.
It's very strange to me that there are so many people who want CoH back and are willing to pay, but the company is sitting tight on the game and does not want to share it and make profit.
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First off...
There is no offline mode (If someone could explain the reasons behind this, too tired atm.) Closest thing you can get is Icon.
Second: I can almost assure you that the former developers do not have any of the game. If anyone has anything still, it would be NCsoft. (I think it was one of the bigwigs here who confirmed it...not entirely sure to be honest)
Third: Feel free to throw as much money at NCsoft as you want...sadly, as far as we know, there have been offers made (Rumor?) with NcSoft not budging. Would love to be proven wrong though.
Forth: Trust me when I say, you and a lot of people are thinking the same thing.
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Do you think the CoH devs have the game still installed and are playing it in offline mode at home?
Work for hire, pal. They have nothing. NCSoft has everything.
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Do you think the CoH devs have the game still installed and are playing it in offline mode at home?
Honestly? It actually wouldn't surprise me that much if one or more did. But if so:
1) I highly doubt that we'll ever know about it, since they basically stole the code from NCsoft and would get into major hot water for it, including being sued (at best) or thrown in jail (at worst). It's the kind of thing that if I were in their place and did it, I wouldn't tell anybody. Not even my best friends or family.
2) I seriously doubt they actually play it that much. The back-end servers require a crap ton of resources, not your average home workstation affair. Plus, they built the thing. It's not like there are any nifty surprises that still await them to find out. I strongly suspect that the novelty of having it up and running for just them to toy around with it would quickly wear off before they'd move on to something else.
Given the amount of risk to the minuscule reward, though, I kinda doubt it. I suspect that other than keeping in touch with some of their former coworkers, most of the devs, reps, artists, and other Paragon Studios employees have pretty much made a clean break from NCsoft. A lot of them are probably too busy working on other projects now to think much about City of Heroes.
Then, how many are people are we that would throw out a larger sum to buy/rent the game to get it going again.
I would gladly spend maybe 1000$ to get it running again. If there are enough people, maybe something can be arranged.
This simply isn't possible by appealing to the developers. Again, they don't own the code, NCsoft does. And there are still efforts underway to get precisely something like this to happen. To date, NCsoft has seemed rather uninterested in the prospect, but we'll keep trying.
It's very strange to me that there are so many people who want CoH back and are willing to pay, but the company is sitting tight on the game and does not want to share it and make profit.
I know, trust me. I know.
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It's very strange to me that there are so many people who want CoH back and are willing to pay, but the company is sitting tight on the game and does not want to share it and make profit.
Boggles the mind :( Bloody evil villains!!
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If I recall, a lot of the code is server side so you can't play it offline.
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If I recall, a lot of the code is server side so you can't play it offline.
Yes, but is anyone listening?
People are going to come up with bizarre conspiracy theories to support their own pet theories that would never exist if they actually checked whether or not their assumptions have anything to do with reality, common sense or even sanity. (anyone remember pikabko's rants?)
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If I recall, a lot of the code is server side so you can't play it offline.
Yeah, thats true. But since the devs ran the servers it would be easy to just copy the whole game to a hard drive and run it off line. Or?
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Yeah, thats true. But since the devs ran the servers it would be easy to just copy the whole game to a hard drive and run it off line. Or?
Don't think it works that way. I could give a technical explanation but I'm probably wrong.
I'll give a small example. You're a fresh level 1 and you encounter a hellion. When the hellion attacks you, their attack is requested through the server which grants it and allows the hellion to execute his attack on the player. The same goes for the player's attacks. So on, so forth. I *believe* this is how it's run but I could be entirely wrong.
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Don't think it works that way. I could give a technical explanation but I'm probably wrong.
I'll give a small example. You're a fresh level 1 and you encounter a hellion. When the hellion attacks you, their attack is requested through the server which grants it and allows the hellion to execute his attack on the player. The same goes for the player's attacks. So on, so forth. I *believe* this is how it's run but I could be entirely wrong.
Next time just use the "Standard Code Rant" and you'll be fine. :)
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While it's a shame that nobody seemed to acquire a copy of the said code, I can certainly understand why they wouldn't have attempted it. We are talking about people's livelihood and future careers. It's just not worth the risk. I know I wouldn't risk getting caught if it was my butt on the line, especially since there probably wouldn't be any return pay out to make it worth the risk. I also know that if I had managed to retain a copy, I certainly wouldn't tell anyone about it.
Besides that, if anyone had managed to get a "secret" copy of it, I believe it would remain just that. I think we would have some validation or confirmation by now if the server code has mysteriously seeped into the wild. Not too many people can keep a secret for that long. :roll:
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I'll give a small example. You're a fresh level 1 and you encounter a hellion. When the hellion attacks you, their attack is requested through the server which grants it and allows the hellion to execute his attack on the player. The same goes for the player's attacks. So on, so forth. I *believe* this is how it's run but I could be entirely wrong.
Quite correct. The enemies are ran entirely by the server, though. :)
Yeah, thats true. But since the devs ran the servers it would be easy to just copy the whole game to a hard drive and run it off line. Or?
No. You're making two incorrect assumptions here: first, that it's as simple as copying a single player game from one machine to another, and second (compound one) that everything was stored on the production servers, the developers had the access needed to copy it and that nobody would look at what they were doing.
A MMO server (speaking of the system as a whole) is not one piece of software that is easily copied - the actual server program usually relies on third party software packages that may be difficult (if not impossible) to obtain by private individuals, the data doesn't have to be stored on the same system, and allowing the devs unlimited, unmonitored access to production servers would be an exceptional failure at basic security.
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A MMO server (speaking of the system as a whole) is not one piece of software that is easily copied - the actual server program usually relies on third party software packages that may be difficult (if not impossible) to obtain by private individuals, the data doesn't have to be stored on the same system, and allowing the devs unlimited, unmonitored access to production servers would be an exceptional failure at basic security.
Many "servers" are not a single program at all. I know the CoT server consists of no less than 6 programs running in parallel, and for servers like the one World of Tanks use, it can be hundreds of programs running in parallel.
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It's also worth noting that a "server" in this context doesn't necessarily mean a hardware machine. It is an application that runs on a PC, nothing more. Presumably if you have a machine powerful enough, you could run all of the servers required for CoH and the client all on the same workstation.
If you've ever played FreeCiv (http://freeciv.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page), you'll be a lot more familiar with this, as it works by one person running the game server, and one or more people running the game client on their respective machines. The person running the server can also (and usually is) also running the client on their workstation.
With CoH, it would be a lot harder because of the resources (memory, CPU, disk I/O, and network bandwidth) used to run the server, but one of the goals of SCoRE (if you're keeping up with that) is to create a very scalable server that will run in the background on a single machine if it's just one or a very small group of people playing.
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With CoH, it would be a lot harder because of the resources (memory, CPU, disk I/O, and network bandwidth) used to run the server,
Hmm. But don't a lot of PCs have quad cores now a days and 8 gigs of ram is standard and even average GPus now able to do Ultra Mode..? And SSDs are becoming prevalent. But yes. CoH, while an old game, was surprisingly demanding...
but one of the goals of SCoRE (if you're keeping up with that) is to create a very scalable server that will run in the background on a single machine if it's just one or a very small group of people playing.
Do tell. :P A scaleable server that can run on a single machine? Drool. So, I could...*cough, I mean...a person could run a team for a few of their buddies on a single machine as server? Effectively...an 'offline' mode? ie. That it could scale right down to one person logging on? *looks curiously at TonyV. *bats eyelids.
If SCORE exists *Winks innocently. I wonder how long it's going to take. Obviously longer than anticipated. A 'guessing game' of attaching strings to the puppet's apis? I hear of other games like AEON having private servers. Or any game with a private server? Did they just have more 'man power?' Were their communities any bigger? Or did they also go through a very arduous time period. i.e. *picks a number a random. Say, 2-5 years?
And a technical question. CoH upto Issue 4 was a much smaller game? Wouldn't it be mucho easier to create a server i.e. figure it out with a smaller bunch of code? i.e. a half gig client rather than one weighing in at 3.5 gigs or higher? I'm not a programmer, so I don't know. I'm guessing. I'd take CoH at upto Issue 4 no problem. Any issue after that is a bonus for me. Sure, we'd all like all the later issues... But in terms of a manageable task to reverse engineer? I'm just curious on that particular question... ;)
As to whether the devs had a private copy of CoH at home? I feel it's reasonable to expect they took work home. I'd be rather surprised if they didn't have a copy of the game. We have Icon, after all, and while it's not quite in the same ball park as having the server side stuff as well...
Now...whether you'd risk leaking that? That's another matter entirely.
I wish NC Soft would just garner some good PR and release the CoH code to the community. *Yeah. Pigs flying and all that.
I'm still optimistic we'll get CoH back some day. It will be two years in November since it's been gone.
I still miss it. I'm not alone in that.
Azrael.
PS. Some good posts. The one thing that comes across is how much people still care for the game. And you can hear that in-between every word posted.
Amen.
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And a technical question. CoH upto Issue 4 was a much smaller game? Wouldn't it be mucho easier to create a server i.e. figure it out with a smaller bunch of code? i.e. a half gig client rather than one weighing in at 3.5 gigs or higher? I'm not a programmer, so I don't know. I'm guessing. I'd take CoH at upto Issue 4 no problem. Any issue after that is a bonus for me. Sure, we'd all like all the later issues... But in terms of a manageable task to reverse engineer? I'm just curious on that particular question... ;)
The Issue 1 "client" is about 800MB, but that's mostly art assets (models, sounds, textures). The actual executable file is only a couple megabytes, which remains true whether there's 1GB of art to 4GB of art. Also, having the client is probably the least-important one-third of the equation since it's easy enough to re-acquire.
(1) We'd need to know what the requests the client makes mean. Does 0x00D4A mean "Use door #3" or "Player saw Thornwielder, what's its HP?" This could, possibly, be determined by trial and error, but then...
(2) ... We'd need to know what the client expects back from the server. Without a running server, we will never know what a valid response looks like, and we'd need lots of samples of similar situations but with different results, in order to reverse engineer the "grammar" of the response. "What color is the sky?" "What color is your hair?" "What color is the wall?" from part 1, in order to get back from the server "It is blue" / "It is red" / "It is white" so that we can figure out that 0x003[a] means "It is [a]" where a is a color.
(3) If #2 was solved, we'd still need to design software to accept client requests and then make the appropriate responses.
Of course, the above takes a lot of network log recording and a lot of manpower to sift through lots of information that was not designed for us to look at. Maybe some folks did do enough collection during the final months. I don't know. I do know I like sunlight from time to time.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2Ff7%2Ff704f9b4c6da738bfd5aa0829126ee4a70573c6af530a671e19d1715bb4bef56.jpg)
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Hmm. But don't a lot of PCs have quad cores now a days and 8 gigs of ram is standard and even average GPus now able to do Ultra Mode..? And SSDs are becoming prevalent. But yes. CoH, while an old game, was surprisingly demanding...
Server hardware and consumer hardware are two different things.
What you think is a lot of storage / RAM / CPU power nowadays doesn't neccessarily measure up to the amounts commanded by a dedicated MMO server, even from some years ago.
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I understand the excitement of the possibility of some dev(s) having the code base. It certainly "looks" like another avenue to somehow get our game back. But, time for a reality check:
- Does one or more (former & "current") Devs have the code base in some version? Likely yes.
- Does he/she have it up and running? Possibly but I highly doubt it.
- Would they they be willing to give/sell/put it up? Not on your life. The legal problems alone is a show stopper.
- Your chances of getting to play on that server? Forget it. You have a better chance of winning the lottery.
All that adds up to a dead end. Badgering the devs for the code won't get you anything but enemies.
I'm not trying to dash your hopes. But NCsoft is the legal owner, and until that changes they are in control. You'd have a better chance hiring a seductress and having her convince him (NC's ceo) to put the game back up. Or maybe trying to get the ceo into a compromising position and then blackmail him into restoring the game.
The best course of action (really our only course) is to develop our own hero type mmo. One thing I would like to see is more updates on how the various projects are doing to bring us closer to our new home.
LV
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I understand the excitement of the possibility of some dev(s) having the code base. It certainly "looks" like another avenue to somehow get our game back. But, time for a reality check:
- Does one or more (former & "current") Devs have the code base in some version? Likely yes.
- Does he/she have it up and running? Possibly but I highly doubt it.
- Would they they be willing to give/sell/put it up? Not on your life. The legal problems alone is a show stopper.
- Your chances of getting to play on that server? Forget it. You have a better chance of winning the lottery.
All that adds up to a dead end. Badgering the devs for the code won't get you anything but enemies.
I'm not trying to dash your hopes. But NCsoft is the legal owner, and until that changes they are in control. You'd have a better chance hiring a seductress and having her convince him (NC's ceo) to put the game back up. Or maybe trying to get the ceo into a compromising position and then blackmail him into restoring the game.
The best course of action (really our only course) is to develop our own hero type mmo. One thing I would like to see is more updates on how the various projects are doing to bring us closer to our new home.
LV
There is no guarantee they have *all* of the code either. Realize that some systems were licensed technology, even NCSoft made, which means even if they have all of Paragon's code, it still may not be in a usable state.
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Could ncsoft not sell CoH as a single player game?
I would be very happy to play its as that. With hirelings for the task/strike forces.
Some say that it would be very hard to convert it to an offline game, but why would it?
Instead of devided between servers just recode it to communicate on one server.
As a single player game it is not more advanced as some open world games like skyrim, watch dogs.
Excuse me for bringing this all up, but I have a strong longing for the game and needed to talk about it in some way that could bring hopes.
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Could ncsoft not sell CoH as a single player game?
No, they can't.
NCSoft no longer has anyone working for them with enough knowledge of the code base to modify it, let alone make substantial changes like that.
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You are quite correct, Downix. With today's technology, who knows how much of it was bought off the shelf from another company or companies or custom made by another company.
Kiario,
Yes. It is possible to covert it to single player, but it's not worth the effort. The cost alone would kill any such effort. Codewalker is correct that NCSoft doesn't have the talent to convert it in house anymore. They're not going to develop that talent either. And without the talent, they can't.
To do the conversion, you would need the server engine with all of its dependencies (login server, database server, gaming engine, underlying OS or a compatible OS). All of those alone could cost thousands. The hardware to run it on which could be very specific and prohibitively expensive. The database itself could have been Oracle running on a Solaris frame for example. All of that would have to be converted to run on Windows. You would also have to patch the client to look for its server on the loopback network interface.
You must understand that the client is little more than a dumb terminal. Sure it has the graphics, sounds, music, textures, etc. to give you the immersive feeling. But it has no gaming engine. It cannot play anything. It literally displays what the server tells it to display. Plays the sounds it is told to play. The client's functions are get input from you and display the effects of that input.
It really is as simple as: You hit the up arrow to step forward. Client sends step forward command to server. Server updates record of your toon showing it moved forward. Server tells client to update the graphics and play the sound of the step. You see the floor, walls, ceiling move. Some textures become more clear. You hear a thud of a foot step. That's the limits of the client.
The server is the one that decides you just went into range of a hellion, and he's going to attack you. The server (playing the role of the hellion) executes the attack, updates your toon's record, and send the additional messages to your client saying, display hellion, remove 5% health from your toon, flash the screen with red so you (the player) see that you've been hit. All those decisions were done on the server.
MMOs are classic 2 and 3 Tier client/server applications. Each part is useless without the other part(s).
LV
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Could ncsoft not sell CoH as a single player game?
I would be very happy to play its as that. With hirelings for the task/strike forces.
Some say that it would be very hard to convert it to an offline game, but why would it?
Instead of devided between servers just recode it to communicate on one server.
As a single player game it is not more advanced as some open world games like skyrim, watch dogs.
Excuse me for bringing this all up, but I have a strong longing for the game and needed to talk about it in some way that could bring hopes.
I'd love to have it as a single player game. Server for one.
That's what stings the most. After all that money, all those years, we can't even play the game like you can with some solo games that have 'online' modes. At least with them you can still play the basic game.
Still. Patience.
It's a matter of time until it comes back. Frustrating as hell in the meantime.
Azrael.
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You are quite correct, Downix. With today's technology, who knows how much of it was bought off the shelf from another company or companies or custom made by another company.
Kiario,
Yes. It is possible to covert it to single player, but it's not worth the effort. The cost alone would kill any such effort. Codewalker is correct that NCSoft doesn't have the talent to convert it in house anymore. They're not going to develop that talent either. And without the talent, they can't.
To do the conversion, you would need the server engine with all of its dependencies (login server, database server, gaming engine, underlying OS or a compatible OS). All of those alone could cost thousands. The hardware to run it on which could be very specific and prohibitively expensive. The database itself could have been Oracle running on a Solaris frame for example. All of that would have to be converted to run on Windows. You would also have to patch the client to look for its server on the loopback network interface.
You must understand that the client is little more than a dumb terminal. Sure it has the graphics, sounds, music, textures, etc. to give you the immersive feeling. But it has no gaming engine. It cannot play anything. It literally displays what the server tells it to display. Plays the sounds it is told to play. The client's functions are get input from you and display the effects of that input.
It really is as simple as: You hit the up arrow to step forward. Client sends step forward command to server. Server updates record of your toon showing it moved forward. Server tells client to update the graphics and play the sound of the step. You see the floor, walls, ceiling move. Some textures become more clear. You hear a thud of a foot step. That's the limits of the client.
The server is the one that decides you just went into range of a hellion, and he's going to attack you. The server (playing the role of the hellion) executes the attack, updates your toon's record, and send the additional messages to your client saying, display hellion, remove 5% health from your toon, flash the screen with red so you (the player) see that you've been hit. All those decisions were done on the server.
MMOs are classic 2 and 3 Tier client/server applications. Each part is useless without the other part(s).
LV
So, the Server really is like the Gamesmaster in a traditional pen and paper RPG in many respects...
Azrael.
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Single player is almost the same amount of work as making the emulator. And the only known emulator being worked on sadly still only has one **censored** person working on it. Which frankly makes no sense...
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Single player is almost the same amount of work as making the emulator. And the only known emulator being worked on sadly still only has one **censored** person working on it. Which frankly makes no sense...
Are you talking about SEGS? Because that's an Issue 4 emulator (or so I understand). SCoRE is (apparently) a larger group, (presumably) working to bring the latest version to the people.