Hugo Figures and Agent Gally. Were they ever going to be successful in liberating the Bane Spider network? If not, what ultimately happens to them?
I was a little bummed by the idea of the Rikti going extinct. For the most part, they weren't EVIL, just victims of a colossal con job.
I was a little bummed by the idea of the Rikti going extinct. For the most part, they weren't EVIL, just victims of a colossal con job.
The AMA does have two conflicting answers about the power of the True Rikti. In one, Positron says it's Tyrant -> Battalion -> Dimensionless -> True Rikti, in another it's True Rikti -> "Rogue" Dimensionless.Probably because such things tend to be in flux until they get pinned down by an issue design decision.
It's my opinion that the Dimensionless would be more powerful, given that based on the answers, the Battalion as well as the True Rikti are not inter-dimensional beings (they are interstellar, however, and according to the story bible that's actually much harder than crossing dimensions (not that that's easy either)). But I guess that's sort of open to interpretation, depending on how advanced the True Rikti would have been. However, the Dimensionless exist outside of time / space and created the Wells of power, so the True Rikti would have to be ridiculous, in my opinion, to beat that.That would have been my guess also, although either way it opens the door to serious questions about how to meld the obvious power creep of the storyline and the almost impossible task of representing that level of power in-game. In fact, if I remember to do so, that would probably be my question for LoreAMA2014: how did the devs plan to represent "galactic empire" levels of power followed by the "trans-incarnate power of the dimensionless." We had pretty ridiculous levels of power in the incarnate system up to I24 already, and maximum incarnate power was still several slots away. Power intended to be not just a little higher, but completely transcendent to that would have basically required handing out admin access to the servers to everyone that finished the Dimensionless Strike Force. That seems very challenging from a game design perspective, short of just punting the problem entirely and handwaving it away. Which I know practically every lore-commenter on the forums would have ripped on (I'd probably be one of them myself).
Thanks for the links Felderburg! I was unaware that old story bible had been released! Will have to go check that out. There goes my week, haha.
I don't know that the Rikti would have gone extinct per se. Knowing how the devs operate we'd probably have all the Rikti on their home planet wiped out and we'd end up with ANOTHER wave of refugees (after Praetorian Earth) pouring into Paragon, though this time from Rikti Earth, or rather, whatever Rikti were currently on Primal Earth being stuck there due to the annihilation of their home. I could very easily see that spinning into a whole series of story arcs with some kind of "Purist" movement on earth that's ticked off that we're turning into the multiverses homeless shelter, especially when those refugees are from groups that were previously doing their damndest to kill us. Plenty potential there.
There was something I remember I wanted to ask for AMA 2014, but I can't find the AMA 2013 thread to verify what it was ...
Magic, I say. Sheer magic! (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA)
I meant the thread discussing AMA 2013 here.
So, if Lady Grey is a Battailion mole. and Mender Tesseract is an important redeemed Battailion agent...
Is Tesseract Grey's future?
Okay, so it wasn't necessarily my question, but I think this is definitely one that should be included for AMA 2014.That's certainly an interesting conjecture, but I'm not sure it fits (to me, whether it fits to the devs would be a totally different question). Tesseract is apparently one of Battalion's most powerful generals, which is why Silos targets her for defection as an ace in the hole. Lady Grey is implied to be very powerful herself, but given her role as a mole and as a sleeper agent intended to disable Earth's defenses via Vanguard, she seems less of a direct assault type of person. And although this is limited in meaningfulness, Lady Grey appears to be older than Tesseract. I don't know why a being like her would choose to appear older while a sleeper, and then appear much younger afterward.
That's certainly an interesting conjecture, but I'm not sure it fits (to me, whether it fits to the devs would be a totally different question). Tesseract is apparently one of Battalion's most powerful generals, which is why Silos targets her for defection as an ace in the hole. Lady Grey is implied to be very powerful herself, but given her role as a mole and as a sleeper agent intended to disable Earth's defenses via Vanguard, she seems less of a direct assault type of person. And although this is limited in meaningfulness, Lady Grey appears to be older than Tesseract. I don't know why a being like her would choose to appear older while a sleeper, and then appear much younger afterward.
Still, would be interesting to get their word on this.
Just to clarify from all the Lore.
Posi wanted Lady Grey to be a Battalion sleeper, but the other developers and writers had issue with that: specifically the couldn't answer this question satisfactorily: Why didn't she just take over: she was easily the most powerful being on the planet when she first arrived.
And there were other holes in Posi's plot line idea.
Just to clarify from all the Lore.
Posi wanted Lady Grey to be a Battalion sleeper, but the other developers and writers had issue with that: specifically the couldn't answer this question satisfactorily: Why didn't she just take over: she was easily the most powerful being on the planet when she first arrived.
And there were other holes in Posi's plot line idea.
Well, it was also stated that Earth's Well is the only well that granted its power to the denizens of its planet, making it a much more "lucrative" target, but also a much more potentially harder-to-take-over target as well. So it stands to reason that the Battalion would want to understand our Well, and undermine its unusual defenders, before beginning a full assault.Harder, maybe. But to a race that devoured uncountless Wells in the past, and have Prometheus *and* the Menders scared shitless? The guys who already know exactly how the Battalion will try to beat us? We're a race of beings that was almost wiped out by an army of alien pacifists that didn't even have access to magic powers.
Your vision was not cheap. We may indeed have in our midst a truly exceptional version of the well. Where as Battalion may be very experienced bow-men with *compound bows* and cool arrowheads and have master horseman. We have gun powder; maybe even nuclear weapons. Heck, Rularuu can gather all the dimensions it wants - they may only be a futile addition of zeroes to a decimal. We have a game changing advantage. What we lack is experience and developement - which is mender silos and tessaract are.Technically, its Prometheus that guides us on the path to Incarnate power. Its unclear what Ouroboros' ultimate plans are, but while Ramiel seems to know more about how the Well of the Furies works, Silos seems to be not well-versed: its Ramiel that explains to Silos that the physicality of the Well as they knew it was just a link to the true source of the Well of the Furies.
Come to think of it, those are questions I'd like to add to the AMA.
What would the Battalion and the True Rikti have looked like? As well as the Dimensionless? Had there been any preliminary ideas on that?
As I recall, the Battalion concept art was mentioned, and is covered by and NDA (as is all unreleased concept art).I believe our initial encounters with the Battalion were going to be through proxies and disguises, so they would basically look like us. Eventually, we'd see them and I believe the idea was that they would look frightening but with a lot of flexibility in how they looked; the gimmick there was that since they had been absorbing power from hundreds or thousands of worlds and species, they themselves should look like a varied conglomeration of visual appearances. Beyond that, I don't know.
Okay ... What about Ascension? I've seen this turn up in a lot of topics and mentioned on the AMA article, but I didn't see anything saying, exactly, what that is.Conceptually, Ascension was supposed to be the next step in power above Incarnate power. Incarnate power is when you receive sizeable power by unlocking your potential with a Well. When you Ascend, you essentially become your own Well, you are your own wellspring of power. I think at one time Hamidon was going to be an Ascended being but I don't think that was ever locked into canon. I believe Darrin Wade was attempting Ascension when he took Statesman's power and tried to bind himself to Rularuu. And I think Rularuu was supposed to be on the path to Ascension by consuming all his alternates.
A reasonable question to ask which would not be covered by NDA would be had any dev given any thought at all to what kinds of power we might unlock beyond Incarnate slots, whether that was Ascension or something else? Once you have things like instant recharge as an Incarnate power (which they mentioned in a previous AMA), plus what we already had, what would be different enough and powerful enough to warrant being something beyond the Incarnate system? Did the devs still even consider having a system of powers beyond Incarnate slots at all (if that was answered in a previous AMA, I don't recall).
Do you think they would have ever made powers like: ascended radial - increase the percentage and duration of outside buffs to you for certain amount of time - higher buff caps; ascended core - increases archetype secondary modifier by certain amount for certain amount of time - higher base numbers? Merely slotting something would give a permanent buff of some sort, but total buff could be limited by in what instance (regular miss, TF, Incarnate trial, "ascended edict") and by what level of character buffed you.
Trollers with tank level life and resistance, tanks with scrapper attack modifiers. Radial would be great on teams, core for solo. Not sweating numbers here just concept. Final level: your toon gets purple triangles, giant monster health and regen (neither permanent), and some kind of high-end melee power like judgement but more ST oriented (we never got to those :/ I'd call mine Dimentia Pugilistica! - ascended of drunken boxing!)
I can't recall offhand, but was it ever stated what the differences were between Mender Silos' and Mender Ramiel's viewpoints? I know the Mender Silos thing was discussed previously, but was Ramiel's story just that he was ideologically opposed to Silos' ultimate plans, or did he have some specific plans of his own that caused him to put the heroes onto the Incarnate path?Someone should create a flowchart or something, because even I can't keep it all straight. The Dream Doctor opposed Silos because he knew Silos was Nemesis and didn't trust him. The Dream Doctor seeks to destroy Rularuu, who is a near-ascended version of himself assembled across many dimensions. Silos was Nemesis from the far future who saw the ultimate result of the Coming Storm and decided to come back and try to stop it. Silos is the only Mender that can break the carbon barrier and lead the Menders using information from the far future because as Nemesis he figured out how to transfer his mind into new bodies: doing so allowed him to come back as far as he wanted to. Ramiel seems to know more about the Well of the Furies than Silos and believes putting humans on the slow path to Incarnate power is the key to stopping the Coming Storm. Prometheus believes the Battalion will overpower any champion of the Well and wants humans to overcome the Well's inclination to empower Cole. Cole believes that achieving ultimate empowerment from the Well will allow him to bring order to his own Earth, defeat Hamidon, and eventually stop the coming storm. Tesseract is a former agent of the Battalion somehow convinced to stop the Coming Storm. Twilight's Son is the last of the Kheldians that were used to power the Battalion space fleets, and a symbol of what becomes of all races that oppose the Battalion. The Battalion are one of the few powerful races in the galaxy capable of planetary invasions across galactic distances, and they consume the potential of races in effect consuming their Wells of potential. The Rikti induced to attack Earth were tricked by Nemesis to doing so, hoping to soften Earth up for his eventual take over. Those Rikti aren't the true Rikti, but humans from another dimension engineered to mimic the true Rikti. The true Rikti are a space faring race potentially more powerful than the Battalion. And then there's the dimensionless.
IIRC, Ramiel mentions being sent back as an agent or something? Was he working for the Dimensionless?
Someone should create a flowchart or something, because even I can't keep it all straight. The Dream Doctor opposed Silos because he knew Silos was Nemesis and didn't trust him. The Dream Doctor seeks to destroy Rularuu, who is a near-ascended version of himself assembled across many dimensions. Silos was Nemesis from the far future who saw the ultimate result of the Coming Storm and decided to come back and try to stop it. Silos is the only Mender that can break the carbon barrier and lead the Menders using information from the far future because as Nemesis he figured out how to transfer his mind into new bodies: doing so allowed him to come back as far as he wanted to. Ramiel seems to know more about the Well of the Furies than Silos and believes putting humans on the slow path to Incarnate power is the key to stopping the Coming Storm. Prometheus believes the Battalion will overpower any champion of the Well and wants humans to overcome the Well's inclination to empower Cole. Cole believes that achieving ultimate empowerment from the Well will allow him to bring order to his own Earth, defeat Hamidon, and eventually stop the coming storm. Tesseract is a former agent of the Battalion somehow convinced to stop the Coming Storm. Twilight's Son is the last of the Kheldians that were used to power the Battalion space fleets, and a symbol of what becomes of all races that oppose the Battalion. The Battalion are one of the few powerful races in the galaxy capable of planetary invasions across galactic distances, and they consume the potential of races in effect consuming their Wells of potential. The Rikti induced to attack Earth were tricked by Nemesis to doing so, hoping to soften Earth up for his eventual take over. Those Rikti aren't the true Rikti, but humans from another dimension engineered to mimic the true Rikti. The true Rikti are a space faring race potentially more powerful than the Battalion. And then there's the dimensionless.
I need an aspirin.
Looked over the #CityOfHeroes Lore AMA for 2014. All questions have an answer (some even have good ones!) Doc goes live 4/28!
How much of human civilization was left in Praetorian Earth? We get brief mentions of Japan during the Praetorian arcs, and later during its fall Hamidon's infected humans mention overrunning other countries like Germany.
Still going through this, and as ever, enjoying hearing the lore secrets, but one thing that strikes me- and hopefully we can do a better job of this next year- is seeing so many questions that have been answered in previous lore AMAs.
Well, it seemed like some of the askers hadn't seen this thread, but I didn't see all that many repeat questions.
Definitely WAY more detail this year on the nature of the Wells and the beings behind them - I was simultaneously more informed and more confused after reading that.
Yeah, it's weird because it almost seems like each Well is a being, that has underlings, but can also bestow its power somehow...
There are two points I'd like to correct though. Prometheus was stated to have been assigned as our Well's guardian, and the Greco-Roman gods were empowered champions of our own well. Prometheus is wary/distrustful of Wells because he views them as tools to empower their race to achieve their full potential, and when he stole/created the Flames of Prometheus to give to man and allow them to tap into the potential on their own, Zeus punished him for it using his power as the Well's champion, under direction of the Well. Ever since this he has been bitter and dislikes the power and authority that a Well seems to hold. This is why he expressly forbids us from ascending because he doesn't want more of them running around.
As for Battalion, I love the idea that by consuming a well they obtain all the currently achieved potential of that race but cut off further power from the source, making other Wells more powerful, however, it was heavily implied in-game that they had only consumed roughly a dozen other Wells as opposed to hundreds or thousands. The Drowning in Blood trial had us communicating with the old Shivans and they mention the "Dark Father" who has married "Mother" (i.e. Shiva), and though I can't rightly recall exactly where, this "Dark Father" is mentioned again, and described as wearing a crown tipped with 12 burning stars. Considering the revelation that Battalion would use Khallisti Wharf as a first strike target and use Shiva itself as a weapon, one can assume that the "Dark Father" is Battalion, leading one to believe that they have consumed 11-12 Wells, depending on whether one of those burning stars was it's original Well or not.
I did contradict that part of the story; your version is, as far as I know, canonical. However, I've never been fully satisfied with it and its possible it suffers from unreliable narrator syndrome. If the Greco-Roman gods were incarnate champions of the well, then that would imply that Emperor Cole was becoming as powerful as they were, if he wasn't already so. And Prometheus sends by comparison only marginally empowered incarnates to bring him down. That seems illogical that we could do that. There's a power intransitivity problem of Zeus being more powerful than Prometheus, but Prometheus being Dimensionless and on the order of power of the Well itself. Well > Zeus > Prometheus = Well.
I don't remember much about DiB. But my assertion that the Battalion has conquered a lot of worlds is an inference combining two assumptions: one: they've been implied to have been doing this for a while and two: every race they conquer is a well they've consumed (they don't just conquer races and skip the well-consumption part generally). The Battalion is spoken of as an almost legendary threat, enough to bring Nemesis back from a million years in the future where the Battalion has defeated basically everybody. If they've only conquered eleven or twelve species, heck that's less destruction than many of my characters have been accused of.
This one could potentially be explained in a slightly different manner. From the description the devs gave, Battalion foot soldiers are made up of the races they've subjugated wearing power armor, and they have some form of inter-galactic fleet. It's quite possible that the races/civilizations that they've subdued and "assimilated" were themselves space-faring conquerors. That would imply and incredibly advanced potential, meaning a powerful well in and of itself, and these races may have (possibly unknowingly) consumed other civilizations potential as well. So perhaps Battalion wields the power of more than 12 wells, but it's possible they did so by conquering twelve other space-faring species that themselves had more than a single wells worth of power.That's an interesting notion. In a related thought its also possible the twelve stars represent not just a raw count of the species they conquered, but certain special ones. The Kheldians might be special, for example, because they specifically use Kheldians to drive their starship engines. The Shivans might be special because they are used as the vanguard of their invasions. Note the interesting distinction between how these two races are used compared to other races that were just assimilated into the Battalion armies.
That's an interesting notion. In a related thought its also possible the twelve stars represent not just a raw count of the species they conquered, but certain special ones. The Kheldians might be special, for example, because they specifically use Kheldians to drive their starship engines. The Shivans might be special because they are used as the vanguard of their invasions. Note the interesting distinction between how these two races are used compared to other races that were just assimilated into the Battalion armies.
Sidenote: Arcana, how is it that I've only just now discovered The Immortal Game? Nice work!
Quite true. Things to keep in mind for future AMA for sure!
Just a sidenote: Did the current timeline Battalion subdue and use Kheldians as fuel for their ships, or was that a potential future event from Twilight's Son's timeline that hasn't yet come to pass yet in our timeline? And if it has already happened and Kheldians potential/well has been assimilated by Battalion, then what are the implications for Kheldian/Nictus heroes? Could they potentially be controlled by Battalion by proxy of their consumed well, or was it simply the potential of the well that was absorbed, leaving them as a race without a link to the Source, but free of Battalion's influence? Funny how such an elaborate and very illuminating answer can open up so many more questions. Oh, the places this story could go!
In other AMA questions and the game, I'm pretty sure it's indicated that the future Battalion use the Kheldians as fuel. One AMA asked about the future Kheldian story line, and Positron said "they all get used as fuel except one, the end," but another dev chimed in with "the players probably would have been able to change that" (quotes paraphrased).I assumed that while there are still many Kheldians scattered in the universe (including actual player-characters on Earth) the main homeworld of the Kheldians was already taken by the Battalion, because if it hadn't been yet why wouldn't Twilight's Son warn them? Seems pretty sucky for Twilight's Son to join the Menders to save Earth, but not lift a finger to help his own people.
I assumed that while there are still many Kheldians scattered in the universe (including actual player-characters on Earth) the main homeworld of the Kheldians was already taken by the Battalion, because if it hadn't been yet why wouldn't Twilight's Son warn them? Seems pretty sucky for Twilight's Son to join the Menders to save Earth, but not lift a finger to help his own people.
IIRC, there was some shadiness about Twilight's Son that wasn't ever completely revealed (or, at the very least, I recall someone- Silos?- calling into question Twilight's veracity and sincerity.)
Before I go, I wish to reveal to you an ugly truth regarding Twilight's Son. He is, in fact, the last of his race, but that is because he sold the rest of his kind into slavery. Whether for his own gain or to escape their wrath, I do not know. Unfortunately for him, when the slave masters burned through the Kheldians, they came after him once more and he fled into the past. Perhaps he made yet another bargain with the masters, trading all the Kheldians of the past for his own survival.
The Letter Writer (ok, Dream Doctor, but at the time of unknown identity) reveals what may be the truth:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Letters
Arcana,
Would you employ the "write the entire thing from scratch" for "rewrite the relevant parts"? Both methods have good and bad points.
For me, I favor the the "write the entire thing from scratch" method as it is much easier for me to catch small errors as I write then editing a year or so down the road.
Cole on a mad power trip or not didnt we have the quills of jocas temp. The dagger brought dow Rularuu, so maybe a flock of us could stop a champion of a well
Yeah, that was one of the things that I pointed out further up. Cole may have been the Champion, but even if we were ants compared to him, there were many of us, and we severed his connection to the well.
In another interesting side-thought I just had: Quills/Dagger of Jocas. Seems possible that this Jocas was an entity of some kind with the ability to sever a beings connection to the Source. Who or what was Jocas, and how did they gain such power? Perhaps Jocas is some kind of "fallen" Primordial? Perhaps an Anti-Existance Primoridial that exists as a balance to The Source and the First Primordial as some kind of cosmic devil figure? Pure speculation, but I'd love to know more about how these artifacts came to carry that specific name and power.
Add "Who was Jocas" to the 2015 Lore AMA list.
If memory serves, the Quills of Jocas was the Praetorian version of the Dagger of Jocas, and was recovered from the Praetorian version of the Shadow Shard (although that doesn't exactly make sense given what the Shadow Shard is) or a Praetorian analog to the Shadow Shard...
Could The antithesis is DJ Zero!? He makes a pocket dimension Completely open and for the joy of all. He would seem the most logical force to counter all Rularuu's negativity.
As I read it in the story bible, I though the formation of the shadow shard was a self-defense strategy because Rularuu was going to die if he didn't create a pocket dimension and fill it with shadows that he absorbed - like a vampire feeding on its own blood. Let's say you vision of the the dagger and well power is correct. If so, the wells represent bandwidths of power and there will always be a consistent amount of bandwidth in the multiverse. The dagger cuts off access to it and the more attached to it you are (more reliant on it as your source of power and how much bandwidth you draw) the more you suffer when the connection is severed (we are likely also buffered since we are on the slow path - we inherently have greater tolerance and less withdrawal from spike-and-dip power fluctuations due to discipline). Rularuu has to make his own dimension otherwise he will lose all the his connection, which persists through all dimensions. He has his section of bandwidth, and in a desperate "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" maneuver allows his reality to be sacrificed to spare the connection.
I'd like to know of all possible dimensions how did portal corp get that one?
because he would have created a pocket dimension with no connections to our Primal Earth (does that sound familiar to anyone :) ).
...no? Should it sound familiar? It's been a while since I read The Immortal Game (and I'm not sure I finished it at the time, sorry :X ) so is that why it should?Without having access to the story bible version of Rularuu at the time, that's almost exactly what I envisioned as the Dream Doctor's defense strategy for Primal Earth, explicitly using the power of Rularuu combined with our Well via Emperor Cole. Only in my version, and in keeping with the fact the game was going to be shutdown, Primal Earth ends up in a pocket universe as well, unreachable from the outside (except for potentially one way).