Titan Network
Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: TonyV on December 05, 2012, 08:37:59 AM
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So in the past few months, on a very few rare occasions including once in the past day, we've had people request that their accounts be removed from these forums for some reason or another. It's usually because someone has gotten upset at something that someone else has said, or they posted something that caused a bit of a stir, or whatever. Just to head off any future cases of this happening, and to explain what will happen if it does, I wanted to post a message in regards to the issue.
First of all, if you want to go, you are more than welcome to. No one is forcing you to post here. Just because you have an account doesn't mean that you must use it, and if you don't post anything, there's an extremely high likelihood that no one will even notice that you're here. I can tell you that we don't do any datamining behind the scenes except on very rare occasions when abuse has taken place, and only to do stuff like correlate IP addresses or other information to look for things like sockpuppet accounts. Since we don't run ads on the sites, we don't place any tracking cookies in your browers, and no information you give to us that's not publicly visible is available to any third parties behind the scenes.
Unfortunately, simply "deleting" an account is actually a little harder than it sounds. It's doable, but because accounts are synced up behind the scenes with our other sites (CIT, the Paragon Wiki, Faces, etc.) but "deletes" are only processed site-by-site, what this means is that you will cease to have a forum account but there will still be remnants of you in our system--remnants that means that if you later change your mind, you won't be able to re-create your account without a lot of time and effort on our part--time and effort that, frankly, we don't have time to be spending because someone has a thin skin.
So what I'm getting at is that if you want to go, and I mean you really want to go, then we can make that happen. But let me be clear: If I spend the time and effort it takes to delete your account, I'm going to do it in such a way that you can't just change your mind later and come back. This also means that you won't be able to log into other sites such as the Paragon Wiki, CIT, Faces, etc. Maybe you think that's not such a big deal, but remember, just because the City of Heroes servers are down doesn't mean that we are dead. We still have things such as the SaveCoH efforts going on, the Plan Z projects, and believe it or not, even an interesting new project or two (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6610.msg85066.html#msg85066) that might come down the pipeline yet.
Plus, some people keep trying to designate the Titan Network as a "single issue" site. We've been accused of basically being a front for a new Plan Z gaming studio. We've been accused of being only a mouthpiece of the SaveCoH movement. We've been accused of only serving to raise false hopes that CoH will be revived. So which are we? All of the above, and none of the above. We are simply a gathering place. Yes, we give an outlet for various groups to have publicity and congregate. And yes, some of us are personally involved in those groups. But if you think that the "Titan Network" is only out to put NCsoft out of business, or that the "Titan Network" is only out to push one successor project or another, or the "Titan Network" is only out to [insert whatever cause you think is being pushed here], you're sorely mistaken.
So I highly advise you to reconsider your request before making it, and highly encourage you to just stop posting in lieu or requesting a complete account deletion. Better yet, if you don't want to be associated with some plan or some movement or some group or whatever, just ignore them and focus on the other things here that you want to be involved in, even if it's just keeping touch with former players. But do NOT expect me or other Titan admins/moderators to go pushing other people out who don't fit the mold of whatever impression you have of people with "legitimate" opinions or motivations.
Now, about what set all of this brouhaha off. Apparently, someone takes exception to some opinions held by others posting here on our forums. I'm not going to delve into the argument or who's right or who's wrong because it's not important. What I will say is this, though: It would behoove everyone to stop trying to interpret our unwillingness to constantly moderate contrary or even unpopular opinions as implicit approval or endorsement of those opinions.
You have to understand that since the official forums are down, a huge number of former players have now migrated here. As such, just as we had on the official forums, we have a lot of people with a lot of opinions that hold them to a lot of varying degrees. Just as on the official forums how Zwillinger, Freitag, and Hit Streak didn't jump on the banhammer button every time someone posted something "out there", we're not going to do that here. It doesn't mean that we're sitting here saying, "YES!!! That's EXACTLY how I feel!" (we'll actually say that if we feel it). Frankly, I don't read most of the posts here and if it weren't for our awesome crew of moderators, people would probably get away with a lot more stuff. It also doesn't mean we won't moderate the forums at all; we do look out for things such as people unicorning, personally attacking other members, engaging in things like racial, ethnic, or sexual orientation slurs, threats, and so on. But you must understand that "troll" does NOT mean "person who disagrees with you."
Where is the line drawn? Well, it's one of those things that we know when we see it, and in the interest of not being rules-lawyered to death, I'm not going to set out hard and fast rules here. But just in case it wasn't obvious when you came here to begin with, sometimes people are going to say stuff that you don't like, and it's not going to measure up to our standard of being so offensive or trollish that we feel the need to squelch conversation about the topic. Welcome to a more-or-less open forum of ideas of discussion! On the flip side, it means that there's a chance that we actually don't agree with you, but we're still letting you say your piece anyway. See how nice we are?
We've also received requests to delete posts or even whole threads and taken steps to restore such posts when someone took initiative on their own to do so. We've disabled that functionality because we felt it was abused. The thing is, when you post something, you're are setting up a context in which discussion happens. At that point, especially after other people have started commenting, even if you originally posted the comment, it is no longer truly 100% yours but instead part of the public discourse. By systematically wiping out such posts, the context in which they were posted is lost, discussion about various topics is gone, and worst of all, there is the risk that people think that we instigated the removal of the posts when in fact we didn't. So just like above, I'm not going to make a hard-and-fast rule saying we'll always delete such-and-such or never delete so-en-so. If you request it, we'll discuss it and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. I can tell you that we will hardly ever honor any kind of request such as, "Delete everything I've ever posted!" because that's simply unreasonable, and I can tell you that it will probably take at least a day or two for us to ponder the situation and figure out how we want to handle it. If you expect us to jump through hoops five minutes after you tell us something, you're going to be sorely disappointed and you shouldn't have posted it in the first place.
I hope this clarifies things a bit, and I'm sorry I had to distract everyone in taking the time to say it.
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Thanks, sir.
I like this. A bit of common sense... a bit of the team's discretion... it's... almost a bit like reality... without all the unreality that hampers it down. ;D
Also, can you please make sure that my account never gets deleted. :P
Carry on... and thank you!
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All I have to say is I love the use of the word "unicorn" here... I just wish swears turned into "pancake" too.
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Sorry you had to take the time to write that, Tony.
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To me, requests for account deletion are merely ridiculous drama and nothing more. We have common goals - all that matters is that we either work towards them or at the very least do not hamper each other's efforts to do the same. We don't have to agree with each other on every single detail at every single step along the way.
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Crime doesn't pay, evildoers!
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False advertising. I clicked this link expecting something "brief". Total bait and switch, that was not brief at all, and I even had to get a refill on coffee half-way thru reading all that.
:P :)
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*post removed due to Titan Network refusing to delete posts at users request, and not deleting user account*
I'm gonna call you out since you're the source of this drama.
I have to say I'm very disappointed that you decided to throw a tantrum. You had a lot of valuable contributions around here and mostly seemed to keep a level head even when emotions were running hot. You provided a needed reality check in a lot of threads. I even pointed some of the more venomous posters at yours as an example of how to present a differing opinion without trolling or unnecessarily provoking people.
But whatever. I thought you had a thicker skin than that, but I was wrong. You want your account disabled, fine. We don't have time for this.
Edit: Toned the language down a little "for the children". I was upset because I liked the guy and didn't want to see him ragequit over something dumb, especially in a way that puts him at odds with the site administration who didn't have any issue with him until now. Additionally, sending a message of "I deleted all my posts, you really should disable users ability to do that," then getting upset when we follow that advice, just seems a little bizarre...
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Heh. To the person who reported my post, he could have left quietly if he had chosen. It was his decision to come into this thread, and all the others he had posted in, and make a disruptive scene.
Btw, I am not a moderator.
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Wow! I'm actually kind of impressed! I mean, it was surprisingly small and petty, but an impressive display of dilligent pettiness.
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Web Forums without drama are like gardens without flowers, cacti without spines or smartphones without apps. ;D
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Heh. To the person who reported my post, he could have left quietly if he had chosen. It was his decision to come into this thread, and all the others he had posted in, and make a disruptive scene.
Btw, I am not a moderator.
All the drama could have been averted entirely if someone had just done what he asked. This forum should have three options for deleting a user, and one includes all their posts as well. That's all he wanted it seems, to leave the Titan Network. Instead it looked like he deleted all his posts, then someone put them all back again, and then he edited every single one.
All you had to do was hit the Delete button. No drama, no fuss, no snark.
This is just my humble opinion.
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All the drama could have been averted entirely if someone had just done what he asked.
Until yesterday, you could actually delete your own account, complete with everything you had posted.
Until yesterday, you could also delete your own posts, and unless you went around making a big deal about it people probably wouldn't notice.
Today, you can do neither of those. This is why we can't have nice things.
All you had to do was hit the Delete button. No drama, no fuss, no snark.
The drama was already there. To be fair one of the moderators did reply and ask for clarification and to make sure he was sure about it. Then he took the action of deleting his own messages and posted a public message on Twitter suggesting that we make it impossible for people to do that.
The only thing anybody did wrong was in restoring the messages he deleted. I did that, because he's a valuable member of the community and I didn't want to see him undo all of that. I thought it was a stupid, irrational decision being made in the heat of the moment and was hoping that after sleeping on it he'd change his mind. Also because he specifically asked for it to be impossible for him to have done that. That was my bad and it's on me.
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Until yesterday, you could actually delete your own account, complete with everything you had posted.
Until yesterday, you could also delete your own posts, and unless you went around making a big deal about it people probably wouldn't notice.
Today, you can do neither of those. This is why we can't have nice things.
Did this apply to just these forums or all the Titan Network sites? From what I've heard he wanted all of his information removed from every Titan Network site including Sentinel and Faces if he had those.
Anway, you've banned his account now and let everyone know about it. If you'd just deleted his account and said nothing we wouldn't be having this conversation because no one would know anything about it. His posts would've disappeared and so would he, without so much as a small popping noise. Instead you've drawn attention to the fact that you've banned him, and he's edited every one of his posts because either he couldn't delete them or did and they were then restored by someone other than him.
Either way, it would've saved a lot of hassle just to delete his account and all his posts without making a fuss.
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Actually, I didn't ban him...
One of the other admins did because he was going through and editing all of the posts, including the one he made in this very thread that Tony created to try to address it quietly without making a public spectacle out of it -- the post that I replied to.
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Hopefully it will all blow over.
I know why he was upset, and yeah he acted like an idiot... hopefully when things calm down he might be allowed back. I enjoyed reading his posts. He was always straight to the point and always asked for facts, figures and sources for things cited by others.
I guess I was just confused as to why when he deleted all his posts someone else restored all of them, which then prompted him to do the stupid thing he then did by editing them all. *rolls eyes*
Six of one, half a dozen of the other - as we say in parts of England.
*sigh*
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hopefully when things calm down he might be allowed back.
I would be in support of that, even if I can't say for sure if the other admins/mods would after all the drama. I don't think the ban was a "never come back" but more of a "hang on and give us some time to think about this" measure.
Edit: I was being snarky because I thought he needed a verbal slap to snap out of it. That wasn't intended to be an official Titan Network position. I need to find some way to change the little dot color on a per-post basis or something...
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Ah, Gangrel.
Saw it coming.
He was a little less...restrained on the main City of Heroes forums during the final months. He really did his best to walk the line here, I could tell. Believe me, you folks who had pretty much moved over here by the final weeks, you saw an extremely different side of Gangrel.
Must have been hard for him to walk that line here, not to raise too many red flags.
And if this sounds uncharacteristically petty of me, it's because I have little respect for the people who dogged the SaveCOH effort at every turn. In those final weeks, the main forums were infested by these sorts of roaches. People like Gangrel often suggested argued that because we had not fought to save other shuttered MMOs, we should have remained complacent about our own.
No one but me tells me when I can or cannot fight for something I believe in.
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Wait, gangrel got fed up and caused a "mess", so to speak?
The guy who had a fox/wolf/some elaborate clan thing as his avatar?
Heh. Can't say I knew him at all, but drama is never really good IMO, in any form.
I just wanna say, thank you TonyV.
For this great network, this forum that lets the community come together.. so yeah thanks :D
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Ah, Gangrel.
Saw it coming.
He was a little less...restrained on the main City of Heroes forums during the final months. He really did his best to walk the line here, I could tell. Believe me, you folks who had pretty much moved over here by the final weeks, you saw an extremely different side of Gangrel.
Must have been hard for him to walk that line here, not to raise too many red flags.
And if this sounds uncharacteristically petty of me, it's because I have little respect for the people who dogged the SaveCOH effort at every turn. In those final weeks, the main forums were infested by these sorts of roaches. People like Gangrel often suggested that because we had not fought to save other shuttered MMOs, we should have remained complacent about our own.
No one but me tells me when I can or cannot fight for something I believe in.
You know, there's really no need for this kind of posting. It's one of the reasons I hardly ever post anything on these forums at all. Because anyone who thinks differently, has a slightly different way of looking at things, and likes to pick holes in things to see if they can be taken apart is looked upon as 'against the SaveCoH movement'.
He never actually told you to remain complacent about saving CoH. He always tried to be helpful, yet you and others like you always threw whatever he had to say back in his face. Yes, he can be an idiot at times, but he always apologised if something he said was later disproved. Why on earth do you think he was here hmm? He wanted to SaveCoH just as much as the rest of us, but he just had a different way of expressing himself.
He never told you what to think or believe.
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Hi all,
I hate to use my first post on here in this manner, but with this guy, there is no way you didn't see it coming...As posted earlier, did you see his posts on the main COH forums? It was a total Sybil...like he cared so much over here, but over there, it was the total opposite. His handle gave it away, but if it hadn't, you would have never known it was the same poster...
Anyway, sorry for any perception of negativity with my first post...I have been lurking for quite a while, and doing my part in the movement (sent my letter to Disney Friday!) and am so proud to see how so many of us came together in this effort to Save Our City...
Cheers!
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You know, there's really no need for this kind of posting. It's one of the reasons I hardly ever post anything on these forums at all. Because anyone who thinks differently, has a slightly different way of looking at things, and likes to pick holes in things to see if they can be taken apart is looked upon as 'against the SaveCoH movement'.
He never actually told you to remain complacent about saving CoH. He always tried to be helpful, yet you and others like you always threw whatever he had to say back in his face. Yes, he can be an idiot at times, but he always apologised if something he said was later disproved. Why on earth do you think he was here hmm? He wanted to SaveCoH just as much as the rest of us, but he just had a different way of expressing himself.
He never told you what to think or believe.
Please calm down. It's reactions like yours that caused TonyV posting this thread in the first place, I think.
Let's not fight :(
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You know, there's really no need for this kind of posting. It's one of the reasons I hardly ever post anything on these forums at all. Because anyone who thinks differently, has a slightly different way of looking at things, and likes to pick holes in things to see if they can be taken apart is looked upon as 'against the SaveCoH movement'.
I actually recall the thread Arachnion is referring to. It is not an assumption; at least the thread itself WAS attacking anyone that was attempting to save the game, calling them hypocrites for not caring about the ones canceled before. Didn't know it was the same guy, though (remembered the post better than the poster.)
There WERE a few (not that many) posters in the forums that were heavily negative and hostile against anyone that cared about CoH, few from different directions (some defending NCsoft's rights, others claiming the game was losing money left and right, and worse the group that claimed "it's only a game, get over it looser") but all with the same final approach: Bash Titan and SaveCoH movements.
Not EVERYONE that was either uninterested or against the SaveCoH was that way, but if this guy was the same one that posted that thread... then yea, he was literally telling everyone to shut up and take it unless they also made an equal show over Tabula Rasa and all the other canceled titles.
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You know, there's really no need for this kind of posting. It's one of the reasons I hardly ever post anything on these forums at all. Because anyone who thinks differently, has a slightly different way of looking at things, and likes to pick holes in things to see if they can be taken apart is looked upon as 'against the SaveCoH movement'.
He never actually told you to remain complacent about saving CoH. He always tried to be helpful, yet you and others like you always threw whatever he had to say back in his face. Yes, he can be an idiot at times, but he always apologised if something he said was later disproved. Why on earth do you think he was here hmm? He wanted to SaveCoH just as much as the rest of us, but he just had a different way of expressing himself.
He never told you what to think or believe.
There really is a need for this kind of posting. He didn't merely have "a different way of expressing himself." His attitude, behavior, and persistence was destructive on the main forums. You either weren't reading, or you have a very unique sense of tolerance. But I won't stand for it, and apparently I'm not alone here. He questioned the legitimacy of everything we tried, and his attempts were often squarely aimed at deflating those who wanted to save the game and community. I have no idea what his agenda was or what fueled it, but his pursuit was dogged. He may have doubled his post count in the final three months. The time to pick your comrades to pieces is not in the thick of the fight.
I didn't leave my forums and come here to these forums until after midnight when NCSoft shut them down, though I did lurk here. He walked the line here, most likely for the sake of self-preservation. I saw what I saw over there and I know I'm not the only one.
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I give up.
I'm going back to lurking. You'll just start on me next for sticking up for someone I admired, who spoke their mind and had quite a lot of interesting points to ponder.
You'll think what you like. Maybe it's because i'm in England I read things differently. The general level of hate I read on these boards though, whether justified or not, makes me sad.
*Not angry, not ranting or anything. Just sad.
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I give up.
I'm going back to lurking. You'll just start on me next for sticking up for someone I admired, who spoke their mind and had quite a lot of interesting points to ponder.
You'll think what you like. Maybe it's because i'm in England I read things differently. The general level of hate I read on these boards though, whether justified or not, makes me sad.
*Not angry, not ranting or anything. Just sad.
The worst thing you're guilty of is having been manipulated by someone. And I hope you'll excuse and forgive my demeanor; I'm willing to put myself in your shoes--in fact I find myself in your shoes a lot around here, actually--but please do the same for a moment. On the forums I called home, Gangrel and others pitted themselves against those of us who had everything to lose. The distractions worked. That's the sad thing. A lot less work got done for the sake of the movement, while we defended ourselves against mind games on the forums.
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The worst thing you're guilty of is having been manipulated by someone. And I hope you'll excuse and forgive my demeanor; I'm willing to put myself in your shoes--in fact I find myself in your shoes a lot around here, actually--but please do the same for a moment. On the forums I called home, Gangrel and others pitted themselves against those of us who had everything to lose. The distractions worked. That's the sad thing. A lot less work got done for the sake of the movement, while we defended ourselves against mind games on the forums.
I will agree there were more than a few posters who were anti the SaveCOH movement specifically. However, there were certainly those on the other side flinging out words like traitor to anyone who didn't agree that the SaveCOH movement was right all the time.
And it doesn't necessarily follow that pointing out that there's a deep, inherent hypocrisy in ALL of us wearing our blinders and continuing to pretend NCSoft wasn't shutting down games left and right while we played OUR game... until they shut OURS down. And now suddenly anyone who continues to play any NCSoft games is a traitor, idiot, hypocrite, etc.
That tolerance could certainly stand to be extended both ways - it was true on the official forums and it's still true from some people here.
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Folks,
I may not be a moderator, but I can play one on TV when I need to. So, couple things:
1. Lets cool it on third person discussions of individuals who are currently unable to post in their defense. There was drama, we had popcorn, and for now it's resolved. Any further discussion needs to happen directly with the individuals involved.
2. The COH forums are closed. What happened there is only subject to our memory, which can be fuzzy (I remember things differently than some of the above posters, for instance, but I may not have seen everything). Short of trawling trough archive.org it's impossible to prove anything from them, and there's no way to know for certain if people use the same name here or not. We should let them be.
3. There is more to Titan Network than SaveCOH. Yes, it's kind of a big deal. And if you post criticism in the "Save Paragon City" sub forums, you should expect to get pounced on. Strong backbone is advised. HOWEVER, in the other sections, the mods will be less tolerant of that zealousy spilling over, so keep it civil please.
4. The moderators are short handed and the traffic volume has exploded. They can't be everywhere. The report tool and PMs are your friend. Just because something doesn't get modded, doesn't mean that we endorse it, only that it wasn't found to be a rules violation or flagrantly offensive.
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Sorry I got a little excited there, Codewalker. :-[
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I neither know nor wish for the details of what transpired. Emotions have been running high for weeks. Gangrel seemed fairly level headed and constructive when posting both here and on the official forums. Can't say I agreed with him all the time, but I thought he presented his opinions, even dissenting ones in a non-offensive manner and added to discussions. If any were inflamatory, I may well have missed them. We can disagree and argue, while showing civility and respect. I also think we should accord one another tremendous amounts of slack and understanding for the stress we've been thru.
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Thanks for that last post there, Codewalker. I think I speak for most of us when I say I'll do my part to make sure moderation is easier on the team. I know it can't be easy having the same team but half the members.
The bottom line, in my humble opinion, is now just isn't the time for infighting. If Gangrel wants to take his ball and go home, we should let him go in peace, and not fight about it amongst ourselves.
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In those final weeks, the main forums were infested by these sorts of roaches.
RACIST!
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Clearly the management around here did not have the foresight to understand the carnage that would occur once both heroes and villains migrated over to Titan and be forced to chat within the same forums. How no one expected the occasional bar room brawl to break out is beyond me. :P ;) It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye, or the juke box gets damaged. ;D
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I'd just like to note that the post in this thread, by the (now removed and banned) poster, had no "Edited" timestamp... meaning that either he posted it and immediately changed it, or made a post which said from the start that it had been "removed". That isn't going back and redacting stuff you've already posted, that's making brand new posts in that format as a deliberate... I'll be charitable and say "gesture" rather than some of the other words that come to mind.
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I've been involved with a lot of community/social media type websites, with the longest such hands-on involvement being 5 years as an admin on one of the better known webmaster forums, Cre8asiteforums.com
Never, ever, have I seen any such site where hitting the submit button on a post doesn't mean they own that post now. Its the most basic and fundamental thing. In fact, the removal of posts made, after the fact, is a form of bait-and-switch that has been a completre faux-pas in Nettiquette guides since the days of BBS and newsgroups.
Removing all of your posts in a fit of pique is like demanding everyone pretend you never ever said anything, and that every conversation anyone had with you should now be redacted. It is incredibly rude and petty. It rates far above Godwin's Law in the scale of such things.
Removal of all of a user's posts is very, very rare. Because that dismisses and annoys every single member of the community that replied to them, and now has no context for what was said. Demanding such deletion is beneath contempt in terms of how in insults and annoys everyone that is part of the community you chose to post to.
Now, I wish that stating this were not going to be seen as an attack on Gangrel, and would not upset his girlfriend, and my friend, Kallandra. However, these are basic facts, and if they happen to apply to Gangrel, that is his doing, not mine.
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I'm going back to lurking. You'll just start on me next for sticking up for someone I admired, who spoke their mind and had quite a lot of interesting points to ponder.
I think I might know what Kallandra is getting at. But consider for a moment, Kallandra, that the vast majority of people do not like unfettered free speech and devil's advocate posts, as thought provoking and entertaining as they might be to a few people. It generally results in an environment where "if you can't take the heat, leave" becomes the motto, and nice people can and will leave.
This hasn't been a problem at Titan way before, but it is now. I started to notice it around the time the Save CoH movement began gaining momentum. The moderators have been patient, perhaps too patient, and now it's grown into a full-blown drama. Sadly, now they have a mess to clean up, and they have to become what they really didn't want to become to keep order.
Or in short, like Codewalker said above: "This is why we can't have nice things."
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Edit: I was being snarky because I thought he needed a verbal slap to snap out of it. That wasn't intended to be an official Titan Network position. I need to find some way to change the little dot color on a per-post basis or something...
Some of us have been there. :)
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RACIST!
Species-ist? ;)
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RACIST!
Look man, I'm gonna say this ONCE, and I'm not gonna repeat myself!
...
If you're gonna say that, just say it with this gif!
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.corvusonline.net%2Fforum_images%2FThatsRacist.gif)
:D :D
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I'm saying this entirely without any of my focus on any particular/specific case or poster (as I just find the subject interesting... actually... peculiar):
I've never once imagined that deletion of an account in a message board/discussion forum should result in the removal of all that account's contributions.
That notion is just... extremely weird to me.
I have nothing worth saying about the specific case others were talking about.
I do, however, believe that recognizing, admitting, communicating-about (and not simply forgetting and dismissing) repeated social infractions is the route towards social harmony, However, for that to be true and successful, everyone doing as such must be as respectful as possible... So, that's not for everyone.
This is just a general statement and not about any specific users/drama:
The wolf that repeatedly fouls the watering hole gets growled, barked and/or nipped at... If his approach isn't changed to be more respectful of the pack, the pack's reactions will get more serious.
This is the natural way of learning, adapting and/or sorting social things out.
You certainly don't want conformists and bullies running the show, but... Anyone claiming that people here are zealously adhering to a single way... would be hilarious. :D
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Web Forums without drama are like gardens without flowers, cacti without spines or smartphones without apps. ;D
And like a city without sewage system!
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There really is a need for this kind of posting. He didn't merely have "a different way of expressing himself." His attitude, behavior, and persistence was destructive on the main forums. You either weren't reading, or you have a very unique sense of tolerance. But I won't stand for it, and apparently I'm not alone here. He questioned the legitimacy of everything we tried, and his attempts were often squarely aimed at deflating those who wanted to save the game and community. I have no idea what his agenda was or what fueled it, but his pursuit was dogged. He may have doubled his post count in the final three months. The time to pick your comrades to pieces is not in the thick of the fight.
I didn't leave my forums and come here to these forums until after midnight when NCSoft shut them down, though I did lurk here. He walked the line here, most likely for the sake of self-preservation. I saw what I saw over there and I know I'm not the only one.
I don't know what you saw over there, but as far as I could tell, Gangrel posted nothing that wasn't fair comment or questions that were fair enough to ask unlike some of the real unicorns over there for whom Titan could do nothing right and were a bunch of swindlers and degenerates apparently.
On these forums, his posts were pretty constructive, although stuff clearly blew up that I didn't see. Live and let live, while GG incites strong emotions, some of the abuse she's taken here has gone well beyond the pale particularly from one poster who clearly hated her from the main boards and brought it with him. Gangrel also is pretty up front and (like me) can rub people up the wrong way, but I can't imagine what was done to him to incite this behaviour.
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I didn't see any negativity from Gangrel either. So I don't know what was said here that made matters blow up so bad but back on the old forums there were times that remind me of movies where the unruly mob decides to form a posse to deliver some "old west justice" and Gangrel was the sheriff trying to preach calm and have members of the mob turn on him.
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this thread should just be locked no reason to keep it going lets continue to focus on saving cox and destroying ncsoft
loved the story in the korean times i would be posting more here but it takes time and effort to plan a day of trading to make a company lose money and trigger alarms on automated HFT systems everyone keep your heads high keep up the good work lets save our city!
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As posted earlier, did you see his posts on the main COH forums?
I can't speak for anyone else, but the main CoH forums were blocked at work for me a few years ago, so I hadn't been a "forum regular" over there (outside of my server's boards just to keep up to date on who was running what for badges) for quite some time.
Edit: And really, even if I am familiar with someone's posting history on some other forums, I'm willing to give them a clean slate here if they're willing to try to get along.
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I'm not sure about this.
I see people agreeing with my interpretation of his activity on the main forums, and I see some people disagreeing with me, people who I believe to be pretty honest. So, here's my chance to either indulge in some self-doubt and think back on things--and whether I may have misinterpreted Gangrel's motives--or behave like an idiot and blindly stick to my grievance.
Kallandra said something about reading things differently from where she sits. And apparently she knows Gangrel intimately, according to a post above.
If I'm wrong, then I've got a lot to apologize for.
I've got some things to take care of away from the computer. If this thread is still open later, I'll post. But I need to think back on how some of those "discussions" went on the main forums.
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I'll just say this about posters playing devil's advocate and/or persistantly being an opposing voice...
Sometimes people aggrandize themselves as some sort of balancing factor.
I take things post for post and try not to swell larger than that.
I have absolutely seen some people believe their own hype in thinking that they are serving the greater good by behaving in certain ways that may be causing arguments/debates and such.
I'm all for discussion and disagreement! However, I find it is occasionally manufactured and, when so, it lessens the authenticity of "balance".
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posters playing devil's advocate and/or persistantly being an opposing voice...
As with so many things in life, there are right ways and wrong ways to go about playing devil's advocate. The right way is to just make sure that an opposing viewpoint has been given a voice and taken into consideration before proceeding. If an individual chooses to adopt that opposing view as their own view and fight to the death for it, they are no longer playing devil's advocate.
(This message brought to you by someone who gets paid to play devil's advocate.)
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I'm not sure about this.
I see people agreeing with my interpretation of his activity on the main forums, and I see some people disagreeing with me, people who I believe to be pretty honest. So, here's my chance to either indulge in some self-doubt and think back on things--and whether I may have misinterpreted Gangrel's motives--or behave like an idiot and blindly stick to my grievance.
Kallandra said something about reading things differently from where she sits. And apparently she knows Gangrel intimately, according to a post above.
If I'm wrong, then I've got a lot to apologize for.
I've got some things to take care of away from the computer. If this thread is still open later, I'll post. But I need to think back on how some of those "discussions" went on the main forums.
Just for the record: as i said earlier, I remember the thread, but I don't remember the exact poster. MAYBE it was "I Burnt The Toast" that started that thread. He was in hypermode troll during the last 3 months of the game, along with Evil_Legacy and Another_Fan (who actually managed to get himself banned!)
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I'll just say this about posters playing devil's advocate and/or persistantly being an opposing voice...
Sometimes people aggrandize themselves as some sort of balancing factor.
I take things post for post and try not to swell larger than that.
I have absolutely seen some people believe their own hype in thinking that they are serving the greater good by behaving in certain ways that may be causing arguments/debates and such.
I'm all for discussion and disagreement! However, I find it is occasionally manufactured and, when so, it lessens the authenticity of "balance".
As someone who has been on the internet for over two decades, and someone who has participated in many online forums since the days when Usenet was the only game in town, I have to state that I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.
Sometimes people who claim to play "Devil's Advocate" do so less out of a sense of fairness, than a need to be contrary in general, and a center for bad attention. As Alfred said in "The Dark Knight", "some men just want to watch the world burn", and its as true online as it is in real life. Even moreso I would say. Some unicorn in simple ways, others are more complex in their approach, but in the end its very much the same thing: sow the seeds of chaos and then enjoy what unfolds.
Now I have no idea about Gangrel's behavior over on the official forums, because I had long since grown tired of some of the posters over there, and had not followed them for years. So I don't know if what I describe is applicable to this person at all.
What I would say is this: we're ALL entitled to a bad day now and again. Was what happened a bad day in action, or a pattern that oft repeats itself? Think upon that a bit before passing judgement.
Just for the record: as i said earlier, I remember the thread, but I don't remember the exact poster. MAYBE it was "I Burnt The Toast" that started that thread. He was in hypermode unicorn during the last 3 months of the game, along with Evil_Legacy and Another_Fan (who actually managed to get himself banned!)
I did lurk on the main forums in the weeks before shutdown, and those usernames eventually filled me with weary disgust on a regular basis, and in short-order.
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Absolutely, earbrace.
And, indeed, there's a big difference between having your own point of view/contention than doing so just to provide a contrarian voice.
It's funny... Many on the forums may see me as an agreeing, positive go-along...
But I have lived a life of being quite a natural contrarian to most everyone and everything around me.
I suppose that is another aspect that is offensive from those believing that they're providing some needed counter balance - it is assuming that others are unbalanced with their own views (just because there's a large amount of agreement).
Since Gangriel has been mentioned, I'll just say that I don't have anything personal against him and we'd shared some jokes and friendly exchanges.
I did see a bit of a constant contrarian from him, but he generally did it reasonably so... No one is perfect, of course. I found him to be a bit too eager to offer that voice at times when it *seemed* forced, to me... But he may have been genuine.
(EDIT- hastily tapped that out on my mobile and just fixed a few typos now)
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I must admit, I consider playing devil's advocate can be a very useful tool in making people look at problems to which they are too close to see as problems in IT projects. I was paid to ask awkward questions as a problem solver in the IT industry, and have done so several times here. The key is to get people to realise that's what you're doing and that you're doing it not out of negativity, but to get them to take a step back and think.
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Exactly. and when its done correctly, that can happen.
Unfortunately, in the online world, its often an excuse for asshattery.
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I'm going back to lurking. You'll just start on me next for sticking up for someone I admired, who spoke their mind and had quite a lot of interesting points to ponder.
I'm afraid I can't agree with you about the lurking thing - your voice is one that should be heard!
The thing I've found most interesting about Gangrel's posts is his obvious desire for factual accuracy. If he believed something to be factually inaccurate he'd go out of his way to research the subject in his quest for the facts, and he posted what he found - even if it meant contradicting an original stance he may have had.
On top of that, if he saw that an inaccuracy was being continually repeated, he seemed to feel it was his duty to correct that inaccuracy - even if that meant potentially alienating people.
Ordinarily, these two traits might be considered as admirable ones I'd say - but the situation in which we currently find ourselves is, alas, anything but 'ordinary'...
NCsoft have treated us all horrendously. They've lied to us, they've stonewalled us, they've taken our heartfelt pleas and thrown them in the rubbish bin - along with the game and community we've held dear for nearly a decade. We're all hurting, we're all trying to deal with this in whatever way we can, and a lot of emotions are running high.
In short, it is a topsy turvy time when even the ordinary can seem aberrant. If Gangrel was guilty of anything, I believe it was trying too hard to be the voice of reason at a time when for most of us, reason was taking an understandable backseat to our very justifiable rage at NCsoft.
But no storm can last forever. And when the squalls have passed I have faith that our community will be back on an even keel once more.
The most important thing now is to remember that the crisis we've all just had to live through, and the moods a lot of us have been feeling, are likely not the norm for any of us. Each of us has to find our own balancing point - it may the old one we had before, it may be a new one, but either way it's ours to find. No-one else can pick it for us.
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I wanted to add a few notes to the thread, since I'm also involved in the process.
The Titan Network's forums have experienced a ton of growth over the last several months. Prior to the closure announcement, our forums were pretty quiet. Now they're positively thriving with activity. So we're going through growing pains. We're having to deal with issues we haven't had to deal with before. And we're still trying to figure out how to do that.
I have no doubt that our handling of everything falls short of perfect. However, our team is trying their hardest.
It may sometimes also seem like our team isn't always fully in sync with one another, especially when things like this come up. Our admin and moderator staff live busy lives. When an issue comes up, we often feel like need to address it fairly quckly, and we often don't have time to talk over all the details with everyone else on the staff or review all the many other posts on the forums first. For example, when I made this post (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6975.0.html), I didn't know that this post (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6967.0.html) existed. I was trying to address some of the pressing concerns so that I could attend to my real-world responsibilities for the morning. So please bear with us and be a bit forgiving. Hopefully this kind of this will become less common as we continue to grow into our new role as the community's main forums.
I want to point out that this post (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6975.0.html) isn't fully in response to cmgangrel. We've had a few other people who have replied to us with variants of "well you never told me I couldn't do that!", so between that and this incident, I wanted to get something out there to give people at least some sort of expectations for what we expect. I agree 100% with TonyV, we don't want to go down the path of rules lawyering. However, I am going to see about providing something that at least covers the basics of what we expect.
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Exactly. and when its done correctly, that can happen.
Unfortunately, in the online world, its often an excuse for asshattery.
In the real world, facial expression, body language and tone of voice can project a sense that the speaker isn't coming from a place of "asshattery" but of genuine concern that the group is too hyperfocused on their cause/solution/blame.
In black and write it can be difficult for some, including me, to project the same tone that I can in person versus a cold e-mail or forum post.
On the flip side it's easy for people to overreact to same e-mail or forum post, reading into it all the negativity that the reader perceives, especially when it's questioning core beliefs that the reader embraced as a reaction to a situation, in our case the sudden closing of the game with only the lamest of corporate speak to explain why.
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Believe me, I understand that.
As stated: some people cause trouble for its own sake. Sometimes the only way to really tell if that's the case online is to look at a particular poster's history.
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In the real world, facial expression, body language and tone of voice can project a sense that the speaker isn't coming from a place of "asshattery" but of genuine concern that the group is too hyperfocused on their cause/solution/blame.
In black and write it can be difficult for some, including me, to project the same tone that I can in person versus a cold e-mail or forum post.
On the flip side it's easy for people to overreact to same e-mail or forum post, reading into it all the negativity that the reader perceives, especially when it's questioning core beliefs that the reader embraced as a reaction to a situation, in our case the sudden closing of the game with only the lamest of corporate speak to explain why.
Absolutely. And well stated.
Also, I meant to say towards Tony, Sekoia and team...
All before the shutdown, I'd been wondering and hoping that the impending population explosion here wouldn't cause too many gray hairs and loss of (whatever remnants exist) of your collective minds. :D
Seriously, I greatly respect the enormous task at hand (for the record, I've been a moderator and community team member of a small forum community in the distant past) and I appreciate, greatly, what we have been afforded here, how well (I believe) you all have been doing with it and how important it is for all users to recognize and respect the fact that this is not a paying job, these are not the official forums and that each and every contribution/demand we put into this thing is a burden of responsibility for all of us, because we're just people with other greater realities trying to make a cohesive, fun, happy thing go round these parts.
Thank you and I shall do my best to be respectful, patient and helpful.
*smashes his own soap box, tips his hat and heads out the door for now* :)
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I can't speak for anyone else, but the main CoH forums were blocked at work for me a few years ago, so I hadn't been a "forum regular" over there (outside of my server's boards just to keep up to date on who was running what for badges) for quite some time.
Edit: And really, even if I am familiar with someone's posting history on some other forums, I'm willing to give them a clean slate here if they're willing to try to get along.
emphasis added
Clean slate in the community is how I think we should go. We've many if not all been in the trenches together, figuratively speaking. We've all been thru enough lately.
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Exactly. and when its done correctly, that can happen.
Unfortunately, in the online world, its often an excuse for asshattery.
I always try to be open and forthright in my asshattery! ;D
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I'm sorry you had to bother with posting this, Tony. All of what he said should be common sense, so please just try understand things from all three perspectives: your own, your 'opponent' and Titan's.
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To summarize...
"I'm not your mother. So stop coming to me complaining every time one of your siblings does something you don't like."
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To summarize...
"I'm not your mother. So stop coming to me complaining every time one of your siblings does something you don't like."
This, yet said without the tone that would make such a statement hair pulling.
:)
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Prior to the closure announcement, our forums were pretty quiet. Now they're positively thriving with activity.
I used to read every single post.
My "All Unread Posts" is now up to 18 pages.
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I used to read every single post.
My "All Unread Posts" is now up to 18 pages.
I still try to read every post outside of the Plan Z sections. (They have their own moderators for a reason.) Eventually I just have to stop, take a break, and take care of non-forum things like eating dinner, walking the dog, cleaning the house, running errands, etc. Then I dread seeing the number of unread posts when I get back to the keyboard. :)
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I used to read every single post.
My "All Unread Posts" is now up to 18 pages.
Then get to readin', slacker! ;)
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And I don't have anything against Gangrel. As far as I could tell at a brief glance, I didn't see anything outrageous or negative that he posted, certainly nothing I would have moderated. I don't know what exactly caused him to flip out and want to start burning bridges, but if anyone is thinking that my post was in response to something negative he posted or some opinion he held, nothing could be further from the truth. We've just got way too much going on to be constantly be bugged about deleting accounts or banning people or whatnot. 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there, it adds up.
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And I don't have anything against Gangrel. As far as I could tell at a brief glance, I didn't see anything outrageous or negative that he posted, certainly nothing I would have moderated. I don't know what exactly caused him to flip out and want to start burning bridges, but if anyone is thinking that my post was in response to something negative he posted or some opinion he held, nothing could be further from the truth. We've just got way too much going on to be constantly be bugged about deleting accounts or banning people or whatnot. 15 minutes here, 30 minutes there, it adds up.
Just keep telling yourself "This is what I get paid the Big Bucks for!"
Then try not to laugh yourself to death...
:o
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As with so many things in life, there are right ways and wrong ways to go about playing devil's advocate. The right way is to just make sure that an opposing viewpoint has been given a voice and taken into consideration before proceeding. If an individual chooses to adopt that opposing view as their own view and fight to the death for it, they are no longer playing devil's advocate.
(This message brought to you by someone who gets paid to play devil's advocate.)
On more than one occasion I stated the following. If someone's only crime is expressing a personal opinion as an opinion, I believe they deserve a lot of latitude when it comes to interpreting what they write in the least incendiary manner possible. Most people are not socially surgical pockets of eloquence.
However, the moment someone decides to take it upon themselves to direct a conversation, manipulate a context, or elevate their expression above personal opinion to social engineering, all bets are off. Such a person is required to be and should assume they will be held to the highest standards of social discourse, and the absolute limits of free-form reciprocity.
To put it simply, don't dress up as the devil and complain when people treat you like the devil. I have on many occasions played the role of devil's advocate. But I made it absolutely clear what I was doing and was nevertheless still willing to take my lumps when I did it and extend maximal patience to those that didn't recognize the tactic for what it was. And I have more years of experience dealing with that than most posters probably have with electricity, and its still a dangerous thing to do.
Lastly, I should mention this. It is not impossible to sound incendiary and yet moderate the crowd, and sound reasonable and incite them to conflagration. I've done both, and deliberately. If you don't know what you're doing, never take it upon yourself to be the voice of reason or the voice of sanity or the voice of temperance or the voice of anything other than the grey matter between your ears. Because people are not as predictable as anyone thinks, and anything else is going to be, deservedly, self-immolative.
Just say what you think for no other reason than to express what you think. Attempting anything else is volunteering to be a pinata, and honestly you'll have no one to blame but yourself.
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Just say what you think for no other reason than to express what you think. Attempting anything else is volunteering to be a pinata, and honestly you'll have no one to blame but yourself.
In my experience, even just saying what you think can make people start swingin' a stick at you. My advice is to have a tougher social skin than papier-mache if one wants to keep one's sweet, sweet emo-guts on the inside.
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In my experience, even just saying what you think can make people start swingin' a stick at you.
Its true there's no way to avoid that. But there's a difference between expressing your opinion while people swing sticks and expressing your opinion while standing in traffic.
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Plus, I'd rather be hit for saying what I believe than for saying stuff I was just saying for other reasons.
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Plus, I'd rather be hit for saying what I believe than for saying stuff I was just saying for other reasons.
I'll be sure to remember that the next time I'm looking for someone to hit with a stick.
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I'll be sure to remember that the next time I'm looking for someone to hit with a stick.
I don't believe you'd really want to hit me! :D
(Ah, shoot, I don't really believe that...)
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Suddenly it's starting to feel like a hidden corner of the D in here... 8)
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Its true there's no way to avoid that. But there's a difference between expressing your opinion while people swing sticks and expressing your opinion while standing in traffic.
Ah, so that's the real reason they call this the "information highway"... ;D
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RACIST!
Wouldn't that be 'specieist"?
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The only substantive comment I have is this;
Several posts above have statements mentioning behavior on other sites. "He was never bad here but he was really bad there" sort of things.
Should not matter.
If we are going to judge people by what they post on other sites and what they do in other places on the internet, then you are all perverts because we all know the internet is for porn.
Seriously though, we can hope that the Admins here are only judging folks by what they do here, because to use hearsay of "on this other site he was a big meanie" would be improper.
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Suddenly it's starting to feel like a hidden corner of the D in here... 8)
I see no bi-curious catgirls.
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Suddenly it's starting to feel like a hidden corner of the D in here... 8)
Hey! What Arcana and I do on a public forum is everybody's business!
I see no bi-curious catgirls.
What if I was a bi-polar bear-pig?
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What if I was a bi-polar bear-pig?
If you were blue, you'd be Shadow Hunter.
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The only substantive comment I have is this;
Several posts above have statements mentioning behavior on other sites. "He was never bad here but he was really bad there" sort of things.
Should not matter.
If we are going to judge people by what they post on other sites and what they do in other places on the internet, then you are all perverts because we all know the internet is for porn.
Seriously though, we can hope that the Admins here are only judging folks by what they do here, because to use hearsay of "on this other site he was a big meanie" would be improper.
While certainly an ideal concept, trying to separate what is posted on this forum vs. the CoH forums isn't always feasible from an emotional stand point. As an example: If you felt that that I argued with you on every post in the CoH forums, or you thought I was being a "troll" there, you're still going to have that emotional response to anything I post here, deservedly or not. It would take time for "me" to prove that I wasn't trolling, or just being argumentative for your emotional response to change. While I try not to get too worked up over things, I can see how some people can, and will, do so. 'Tis human nature.
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I would like to point out that this is not my fault:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWEjvCRPrCo
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I'll see your WoW, and raise you CoH.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JziYZ-saFu0
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<facepalm>
How did I miss this? :)
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Probably because it's four years old, and only has 30k views. >.< I only knew about it because I was linked to it in game way back. More people should see it though.
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I see no bi-curious catgirls.
I see talk of caning. Isn't that sufficient?
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:o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv7YfDIsjtE
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:o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv7YfDIsjtE
... and James Bond relaxed a little.
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While certainly an ideal concept, trying to separate what is posted on this forum vs. the CoH forums isn't always feasible from an emotional stand point.
If someone is posting negative comments about someone else and using 'because he was a douche to me over on another forum' as their proof of unicorn-ness, then they are losing credibility. If someone is having an emotional reaction and posts out negative things about someone else and is using 'because he was a douche to me on another forum' as their proof, I have even less reason to trust anything they have to say.
My original point stands.
This entire thread is about someone who let their emotional state over take them and effectively ragequit from Titan. Tony is kindly explaining some of the mechanics behind how the forums work and why something technical is difficult to do on short notice. I believe it was in hopes of reducing drama and informing other people who want to take something back that it just ain't that easy to do, so watch what you post.
It has devolved into a bunch of people ragging on and about the person who has already split the scene, and then defenders of the person coming in to defend him and back and forth.
Pointless.
Thank Tony for explaining the process and move on.
Calling the guy out over dreck he did over on CoH forums is not just pointless, it's counter productive. Arguing that you should be allowed to bring in your opinion of someone's posting on other forums as a reason why you should be legitimately allowed to publicly condemn them here is just sad.
If someone has an issue with another someone in a different forum, that's an issue for those two people. Trying to make it an issue for everyone else is not what I would consider adult and responsible behavior.
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Like it or not, past history will both effect and cloud people's judgements and actions. Yours and mine included. That's really all I was saying.
Unlike yourself, I wasn't passing judgement on the validity, or lack there of, of what people were doing and saying in this thread. More of an observation on human nature.
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Maybe we could try to think of this as a fresh start, then. I don't know most of you coming over from the official forum, but I recognize a lot of names. I see it as a good thing that people are coming here, but I have no preconceptions of anyone. It's a new place, and, if someone wants to start fresh, they should have the chance.
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Unlike yourself, I wasn't passing judgement on the validity, or lack there of, of what people were doing and saying in this thread. More of an observation on human nature.
(a) I was not 'passing judgement' on anyone, matter of fact I was requesting people cease that particular activity and (b) You do realize that statement is a passing of judgement. Right?
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Like it or not, past history will both effect and cloud people's judgements and actions. Yours and mine included. That's really all I was saying.
Separated from Snark for Clarity
No. Don't have to like it. Don't have to just let it slide because 'Oh well, can't be bothered' type opinions.
Someone had an issue with Titan Boards and went in a public flame out. Tony, in a gesture of openness and fairness, explained publicly as to why one of the major complaints of that person was an untenable option for these forums. Other than a "Thank you Tony" there was really very little else that should have been said about the matter. Instead it has become a 5+ page thread about people debating over why the guy deserved to be banned, using hearsay information about what he may have been like in other forums.
And while the court of public opinion allows hearsay information for condemnation, I would like to think we can at least make the attempt to prevent that sort of behavior as being the default position.
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Someone had an issue with Titan Boards and went in a public flame out.
I added the boldness for emphasis - if it offends I can remove it.
I think this is the issue here is the public nature. I dont really know many of you, but theoretically, lets say I hate Roughtrade because we got in a tiff on the old forums over... a dominator build. I was a huge jerk and kept going on about how elec assault was the worst powerset ever, and demeaned anyone who used it to the point where people were wondering why I wasnt kicked off. (Hypothetical of course. Because elec is always the best power ever).
Now let's say I'm here, and being civil. We're all torn up about CoH - that's why emotions are running so high around here. It's because of a shared passion. So let's say this passion calms theoretical me, but because I've been such a jerk, Roughtrade wants to tear into me for absolutely no good reason. Would I have earned being disliked, mistrusted, and not being accepted until I'd proven consistently that I was changed, and maybe not even then? Yes. But it would still be wrong to blow up at someone for something they did in the past.
I'm not saying that applies to now, as I avoid this sort of situation enough that I rarely know all of what's going on.
But I think this discussion has turned a bit... harmful? It might help to remember why we're all so easily set off lately, agree that we'll all try to handle things smoother in the future, and work for unity at every turn.
Apologies if this post comes off as condescending or patronizing. I just don't want the CoH refugee community to degrade without trying to be diplomatic.
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Sadly, I've found that particularly in the current incarnation of society, holding eternal grudges is not only common, but even encouraged. It allows John Doe to remain the butt of jokes in social circles until the end of time, and extra tools for socialization are always seen as a good thing. Add to that a world in which all words spoken between people are more or less engraved in stone, and it all becomes pretty pathetic. :-\
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Maybe this time it's because of the time difference, Gangrel being in the UK, but I have no idea what happened. I woke up one morning, all his/her posts were manually deleted, in an epic display of childishness, and there was this thread. I never had a problem with Gangrel, but I never hung out on the official boards, much.
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I see no bi-curious catgirls.
Do you want me to ask my wife to make an account here then?
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Sadly, I've found that particularly in the current incarnation of society, holding eternal grudges is not only common, but even encouraged. It allows John Doe to remain the butt of jokes in social circles until the end of time, and extra tools for socialization are always seen as a good thing. Add to that a world in which all words spoken between people are more or less engraved in stone, and it all becomes pretty pathetic. :-\
Indeed. We've become increasingly insular, self-centered, and very, very petty as a society.
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Indeed. We've become increasingly insular, self-centered, and very, very petty as a society.
Ont he other hand sometimes turning the other cheek only gets you smacked twice.
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Ont he other hand sometimes turning the other cheek only gets you smacked twice.
There's a gulf of difference between sustained grudge-holding and turning the other cheek, and in that gulf there's many different ways of handling situations. This is not a black/white, either-or proposition. Such absolutes are rare.
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There's a gulf of difference between sustained grudge-holding and turning the other cheek, and in that gulf there's many different ways of handling situations. This is not a black/white, either-or proposition. Such absolutes are rare.
Which is why I stated earlier: While certainly an ideal concept, trying to separate what is posted on this forum vs. the CoH forums isn't always feasible from an emotional stand point.
Some people can. Some people can't. Everyone does so to a varying degree.
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Maybe this time it's because of the time difference, Gangrel being in the UK, but I have no idea what happened. I woke up one morning, all his/her posts were manually deleted, in an epic display of childishness, and there was this thread. I never had a problem with Gangrel, but I never hung out on the official boards, much.
Gangrel always seemed like one of the more level-headed ones, trying to get everyone to see some balance between the two extremes. So I really can't imagine what the heck happened, unless someone on one end got really peeved at anyone trying to achieve some moderation of attitude.
I've tried to keep people balanced to a point too though, and I've never had a major issue.
*shrug*
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I think there are a range of unrelated commentaries going on in this thread that could easily clash, mostly from miscommunications/misunderstanding, and turn into series of back and forth disagreeing about the proper ways to be.
So, please be careful. ;)
People are sort of riffing off of different ideas and different interpretations and speaking in some (I'll say slight) absolutes.
If I say, "Johnny was a jerk when I dealt with him last, therefore, while I will give him the ability to prove himself otherwise, I am not going to simply erase my history with that person"... there is nothing unreasonable about that.
If I say, "Moderators shouldn't hold a user's actions from elsewhere against them here", that's a reasonable and responsible assessment. A user here gets moderated for what they do here. If anything were to spill out elsewhere, there can be a case-by-case basis (obviously... I'm talking about some sort of weird and/or foul stalkerish, bullying, abusive, etc. behavior against another member... some sort of extreme that I could see possibly bring outside activity into play).
If I say, "giving a person the chance to change, and respect the possibility that they may have changed is a fair and reasonable way to approach things"... it does not remove the idea that sometimes you truly might have to cut someone out and/or stop giving them chances... and/or it is up to the individual person what they do or do not wish to hold against a person.
If I say, "It's a bit illogical and unreasonable to expect and suggest that no previous interactions with a person should come into play within your head when dealing with them again"... it does not mean that I have no grasp of forgiveness or that I lack the reason to handle things respectfully.
If I say that "eternal grudges have become all too popular, common and easy for people to adopt" it does not mean that some people haven't earned animosity and that you may possibly be best off not dealing with such people from your past.
If I say that "I think another problem with people today is that they do not incur honest social responses/reactions to poor behavior, thus helping to perpetuate continued bad behavior by the original offender(s) and helping to breed an accepted standard of asshole-ness among society"... It does not mean that I don't also think that some people jump to overly-harsh grudges and dismissals.
I hope that made some sense to people and most find it agreeable (if you bothered to read).
I just see a lot of truths in here... that some people are starting to use as debating points against other truths... when I believe that those truths don't cancel each other out or make the others untrue.
:)
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Gangrel always seemed like one of the more level-headed ones, trying to get everyone to see some balance between the two extremes. So I really can't imagine what the heck happened
Its actually not that hard to imagine at all.
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It's also possible that his personal e-mail got out (or even fully dox) and someone made griefing him their personal mission in life. Now some people were getting quite ... passionate about the various efforts to save the game and brook no point of view that even hinting that a business case could be made for the closure of the studio and the game or possible reasons why NCSoft weren't serious about selling.
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One of the other anti-Titan types from the CoH forums made a brief appearance here shortly after November 30th, but they disappeared quite quickly - although I'm not sure if it was their choice :P
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It's also possible that his personal e-mail got out (or even fully dox) and someone made griefing him their personal mission in life. Now some people were getting quite ... passionate about the various efforts to save the game and brook no point of view that even hinting that a business case could be made for the closure of the studio and the game or possible reasons why NCSoft weren't serious about selling.
The *possibility* certainly existed. The relative *certainty* that was often expressed belied the fact that was actually wrong.
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In an attempt to stop some of the guessing...
I do not want to state his reasons for leaving (that's for him to decide whether he wants to or not), but I will say that as far as I know, he wasn't being griefed and his personal e-mail had not gotten out.
The person in question is not actually banned from the Titan Network. He asked that his cmgangrel account be deleted. In the process of that happening, things escalated a bit and his forums account did get banned, but that was only to prevent further escalation. It's not a reflection of a permanent ban. He's not barred from making a new account in the future should he so desire.
I would also add that after the escalation was nipped, he was later pretty reasonable in his follow up communications with me.
I'd ask that people stop discussing why he left or trying to guess the reasons behind it, as there's really nothing to be gained by it.
And in a somewhat different vein...
If you are moderated on our forums, it's because of what you've posted on our forums. If you are banned from the Titan Network, it's almost certainly because of something you did on one of our websites. Our staff is not in the habit of penalizing people based on their behavior elsewhere. I won't say it's impossible to happen. As Electric-Knight pointed out, there are extreme situations where it might be warranted (such as cyber-stalking). But I don't think anything that extreme has ever come up, and hopefully it never will.
However, if you have a history of being a troublemaker on another forum and some of our mods are first-hand aware of that history, don't expect them to forget it. They won't mod-hammer you for being a troublemaker elsewhere, but that doesn't mean they won't keep more of an eye on you because of it initially. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not. But that's just how people work. And if your troublemaking days are truly past, then you really have nothing to worry about.
None of this came into play for cmgangrel. I was the person primarily handling his account closure, and I wasn't even aware of any history he might have had elsewhere. (I never really followed the official forums.)