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Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: Ammon on November 03, 2012, 11:51:29 AM

Title: Current position/Update
Post by: Ammon on November 03, 2012, 11:51:29 AM
We could really use a status report if Tony is well enough to spare the time.

Meantime, let's see where we are, and what needs doing right now, or in the next few days.


As always, priority number one is to keep increasing the volume.  Keep the story of our fight and plight in the news wherever we can.  Everyone can help in this as simply as linking to stories from their twitter, facebook, or Google+ accounts whenever they appear, which all helps make the stories more visible.  Additionally, the appearance of lots of links and mentions actually incentivises more coverage by the media (Let them think: If we cover this story, hundreds of people will link to us and send more readers?  Let's do it!).


We appear to have a confirmation of an asking price (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5250.msg72575.html#msg72575), although it still seems a little fuzzy just what that price would include.  $80 million has been stated as the price in question, which while ridiculously high, is at least a starting point, and puts us in a far better position to work from than having no idea whether NCsoft were willing to part with it at any price.


Our efforts to apply pressure to NCsoft where it counts - financially - are looking to be having some effect, but it needs to be clearer to everyone that doubts about the negative press, and NCsoft managerial decisions, are affecting the share prices.  More forums where gamers are claiming doubts about buying into NCsoft, hesitating to buy NCsoft games also help here.


So far we have, at least here, managed to remain determined rather than petty.  We need to keep this going, as we can't afford to alienate future or current borderline supporters by seeming to be sufferers of nerdrage, or unrealistic people with an overdevelopped sense of entitlement.  We need to remain passionate, sure, but it must always seem logical and fair too.  There is nothing wrong with uniting as customers to demand better service, and that's how we should be seen.  The ultimate 'right' of any people is to rebel and change the system.  Sure, ours is a very small-scale rebellion in the grand scheme, but I think we can be seen to be just as concerned about freedom, and being heard as any noble rebels ever were.  Just let's all remain focussed on being passionate rebels, not terrorists.


In general, it should be clear that we do not expect for the closure of COH on 30th November to be stopped.  Its is almost certain, barring divine intervention or similar miracle, that the servers will turn off.  However, this is expected and part of our plan, and better, helps us.  NCsoft's decision makers honestly and fully expect that they only need to hold out til then.  That when the servers go down, the fight is over.  As a result, when that does not happen, our fight becomes far more effective.  It shows them that there is no end to this until it is settled.  It can't be burried.  That then only leaves them reconsidering how to fix the problem, with no doubt at all that there is a problem for them, and one that will require fixing (and that always costs somewhere, whether that is paying for PR, paying for advertising, or writing something off as a cheaper expense).


In general, we can feel quite positive.  We have already pushed NCsoft to make some public statements and otherwise pushed the issue to where someone is being paid to address it (its costing them, even if not much yet).  They will likely try to bury their heads in the sand a little more (trust me, old-school marketing and business loathes to admit that times and practices have changed, and that the customers have a lot more power thanks to the internet).  The thing is that NCsoft are a business, and that makes them pretty predictable.  For them, the motive is always money (short term or long), and we as their market, and gamers connected to all of their markets, have power there.


We have also potentially opened up yet another possibility.  I've spoken about the power of negative PR, and VV has shown an incredible offer of positive PR.  Well, an initial asking price point of 80 million, if this does include the code, could easily mean that with just a little more pressure, NCsoft would more than gladly leap at an offer of $20 million (still a LOT of money), but $20 million is something a large enough company could offer JUST to buy the publicity we've been working on building.  Many of the big companies are spending far more than $20 million each month just in TV advertising for their latest games, so ... this could flag up as a possible alternative method of advertising and promoting.

Again, this is all dependant on keeping the PR rolling, and the publicity growing.


If others have anything else to add to the 'update' at the moment, please do.  If nothing else it may make Tony's job a bit easier when he can give us an official update. :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Artillerie on November 03, 2012, 02:34:16 PM
Very much agree with all of the above. I have recently posted on Facebook stating my belief that the real fight will start after november 30th. When NCSoft realise that the bad PR is not stopping at this point, a lot of people in the company are going to be asking themselves if the cost of hanging onto the IP is worth it in the end.

This is the message that we have to spread around as much as we can because a lot of people are going to lose heart come the 30th. Those of us who can carry on will have to take on some of this pressure and offer reassurance to the others who feel that it it all over.

To quote Churchill : Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Knightslayer on November 03, 2012, 03:34:05 PM
We have also potentially opened up yet another possibility.  I've spoken about the power of negative PR, and VV has shown an incredible offer of positive PR.  Well, an initial asking price point of 80 million, if this does include the code, could easily mean that with just a little more pressure, NCsoft would more than gladly leap at an offer of $20 million (still a LOT of money), but $20 million is something a large enough company could offer JUST to buy the publicity we've been working on building.  Many of the big companies are spending far more than $20 million each month just in TV advertising for their latest games, so ... this could flag up as a possible alternative method of advertising and promoting.

Again, this is all dependant on keeping the PR rolling, and the publicity growing.
I like that, and it makes sense - it would show them as being the heroes of the day, and I imagine a lot of sites would cover the story. :D
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 03, 2012, 05:53:34 PM
I'm starting to become convinced that TonyV is now under an NDA.  8)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Mister Bison on November 03, 2012, 06:19:08 PM
To quote Churchill : Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
And look at the name of whom I'm quoting from :roll:

Thanks for the update, especially the price tag.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: emu265 on November 03, 2012, 08:00:41 PM
I agree with all of what you said.  But I was curious about a status update myself.  Tony's been so quiet I actually stalked his most recent posts >.> 
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: LuchRi on November 04, 2012, 03:02:50 AM
New to the forum, Actually just made this account to add my thoughts and support to the fight. CoH was the first MMO that didn't feel bland and meaningless to me. Te first one where I did not have to worry about keeping level with friends or Grinding boringly for hours on end. Reading this abates many of the things I worried about most. However there is one additional factor that we have to consider.

I have many GW playing friends. They like GW, and many of them seem to feel that we are over-reacting. The argument seems to be that NCsoft owns the IP and we should just find a new MMO. I know many people who may wish to spam or troll at such words, but I think one of the best things we can do right now is to explain to people, individually, why this is wrong.

As has been said over and over anger will get us nowhere. NCsoft right now is starting to see that their call for this game was a bad one, but they also seem confident in the fact that their new and upcoming titles will offset the losses. We need to appeal individually and en mass to those who use or wish to use NCsoft. Try to explain to them in a friendly and rational matter how it could be their game next, how they could lose an investment with little warning. This isn't like picking up a new game with some DLC from a store. If another Megaman or Monster rancher game never comes out I personally would be very sad, but I still have the ones I own. The same is true for others I am sure. With an MMO though if it goes down it goes down for good and few get the nice, dedicated private servers games like PSO may enjoy when the company no longer cares about the IP.

People need to realize that so long as NCsoft behaves like this, so long as they continue to pull games entirly, all the work and all the effort and all the enjoyment could be gone in an instant due to the short sighted whims of those who may not even care about the game itself.

We are the players, and we are the ones this affects most.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 04, 2012, 03:04:59 AM
I agree with all of what you said.  But I was curious about a status update myself.  Tony's been so quiet I actually stalked his most recent posts >.>

I did as well. Noticed most of them were in the Plan-Z forum. Doesn't seem like a good sign.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ammon on November 04, 2012, 03:24:00 AM
New to the forum, Actually just made this account to add my thoughts and support to the fight.
Welcome to the forum.  We're glad you added your thoughts and support to the fight.  :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: emu265 on November 04, 2012, 03:30:16 AM
I did as well. Noticed most of them were in the Plan-Z forum. Doesn't seem like a good sign.
I'm not gonna read too much into it, but it could mean anything. I highly doubt Tony would give up on the "save" part without telling us :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: JaguarX on November 04, 2012, 04:54:01 AM
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 04, 2012, 04:55:27 AM
I'm not gonna read too much into it, but it could mean anything. I highly doubt Tony would give up on the "save" part without telling us :)

/this

its very possible that tony could be busy with RL stuff as well and just havent had the time to comment everywhere even though hes doing more behind the scenes
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: downix on November 04, 2012, 08:28:19 AM
I'm not gonna read too much into it, but it could mean anything. I highly doubt Tony would give up on the "save" part without telling us :)
Absolutely not. Shoot, if NC Soft makes an offer for the IP without engine we would jump. Plan Z has lots of options on the table, including making NC Soft completely redundant.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Mister Bison on November 04, 2012, 08:31:28 AM
Absolutely not. Shoot, if NC Soft makes an offer for the IP without engine we would jump. Plan Z has lots of options on the table, including making NC Soft completely redundant.
You're right, maybe Tony is just approaching Plan Z to use some things for plan B (which should be more along the line of saving City Ourselves rather than waiting for NCSoft to do it, which is Plan A).
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: eviella on November 04, 2012, 08:51:43 AM
Thank you.  I've kind of figured there's relatively little to do at this point; other than actually play the game and keep in touch with friends.  This changes on Dec 1, but right now the big thing is establishing out of game communication with people and making sure people know that the fight is going to continue- and needs to continue.

One good effect we've had, and think we'll continue to have, is I'm SURE other companies are watching how this is going down.  Even if we can't save our city, I think our actions will have a major impact on how future game shutdowns happen.  Somebody made the Batman comparison- our parents may be dead, but the response to than can keep the same thing from happening to others.

Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Artillerie on November 04, 2012, 03:08:19 PM
Please, let us try to stay focused on this thread - which is to realise that the fight is only starting, that we will have to continue beyond november 30th, and that a calm and reasoned approach to this is having an effect.

Focus on spreading the word, networking, keeping up the pressure and offering reasurrance to the people who think that there is no hope.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 04, 2012, 03:14:31 PM
I'm trying to keep up optimism but we don't seem to have a snowball's chance to keep the game as we know it up and alive. Even if we could the devs were laid off and many have already taken new jobs. I want this game to continue. Plan Z is enticing but I don't understand much of it at all and to be honest I sort of doubt my old computer can handle a new game.

I hate to think that in less than a month my characters will be gone. My main with 1100 badges, 3 sets of purples, the 3 first Incarnate powers slotted. Until I took a break from the game. Now I can't even renew my VIP to play with all that stuff and I feel terribly left out :(

To be honest I never participated in the community. My Supergroup pretty much died out so I only soloed or did pick up groups. I'm not going to miss the people (though you are all very nice, nothing against you), I'm going to miss the stories, the work and sense of accomplishment after gaining a new ability or badge. And all that work, all those little accomplishments, will be erased, gone forever. Buh-bye.

So anyway, my morbid rant. An update would be nice. All I can offer is myself as a number and a rather small voice, if I can do something to save my little part of the city of heroes world then please let me know.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Artillerie on November 04, 2012, 04:04:57 PM
I'm trying to keep up optimism but we don't seem to have a snowball's chance to keep the game as we know it up and alive. Even if we could the devs were laid off and many have already taken new jobs. I want this game to continue. Plan Z is enticing but I don't understand much of it at all and to be honest I sort of doubt my old computer can handle a new game.

I hate to think that in less than a month my characters will be gone. My main with 1100 badges, 3 sets of purples, the 3 first Incarnate powers slotted. Until I took a break from the game. Now I can't even renew my VIP to play with all that stuff and I feel terribly left out :(

To be honest I never participated in the community. My Supergroup pretty much died out so I only soloed or did pick up groups. I'm not going to miss the people (though you are all very nice, nothing against you), I'm going to miss the stories, the work and sense of accomplishment after gaining a new ability or badge. And all that work, all those little accomplishments, will be erased, gone forever. Buh-bye.

So anyway, my morbid rant. An update would be nice. All I can offer is myself as a number and a rather small voice, if I can do something to save my little part of the city of heroes world then please let me know.


A lot of people are feeling much the same way Jordan, it is to be expected.

But the point of this thread is to highlight that NCSoft is expecting us to all just fade away. Their silence is a tactic that they have no doubt used before to good effect. So read the stuff here, see what people are doing to save the game and let it keep your optimism up.

It can be difficult because they consequences of our actions are hard to percieve and interpret but to make it work we need every possible person involved. Check out the 3rd paragraph of Ammons post above, we can all do these things.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Codewalker on November 04, 2012, 04:07:49 PM
Agreed, they're hoping that if they hold fast and shut down the game on the 30th, that we'll all give up and go our separate ways, and not cause any more trouble for them. That's why they haven't made any other statements, they think they can wait us out.

We need to make it clear that's not going to work. Even after it shuts down, we need to be campaigning hard that they need to sell or otherwise release the IP so that it can come back.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 04, 2012, 04:13:27 PM
"Now I can't even renew my VIP to play with all that stuff and I feel terribly left out."

Another reason I'll never deal with NCSoft again. Yes, selling us a major powerest three days before the announced closure was fraud, but I was with this game since soon after it opened, and have just over five years of active subscription. For them to just shut off the ability to resubscribe, cut me out of the majority of new content with no warning whatsoever... that was just plain mean and inconsiderate. And I'm far from alone here.

Those who say we're just trying to "smear" NCSoft don't know what they're talking about.

"Even after it shuts down, we need to be campaigning hard..."

And continuing our so-called smear campaign to let players know what sort of jerks they're giving their hard-earned to.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on November 04, 2012, 04:28:03 PM
I understand some may not give another penny to NCSoft and that if fine and may the right thing to do for some. Yet on the flip side, more people that say that the more it seems that the player base is done with NCSoft and COX under them. This of course would have minimized the chance that NCSoft would relent and either reboot the game into he future or do anything with the IP if they keep it because then they will think that the player base is gone and the money that it would cost to restart it would be wasted.

As I understand it, the "not another penny" statement is more along the lines of protesting NCsoft's poor customer relations; it's a way of saying "they obviously don't care about their customers, so I don't care to purchase their products" and "if they're this abrupt with shutdowns, I don't want to get financially (and emotionally) involved with another of their games because they could just yank it with no warning".

In regards to what happens after Nov. 30th:
Right now, we could still lose our last few weeks of gameplay, but after the servers go down, that's not an issue.  Some players may become more inclined towards spreading negative PR because "what are they gonna do, ban us?".
I'm all for turning up the volume, but we need to be careful of how we do it, especially after Doomsday.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 04, 2012, 05:46:11 PM
You're right, maybe Tony is just approaching Plan Z to use some things for plan B (which should be more along the line of saving City Ourselves rather than waiting for NCSoft to do it, which is Plan A).

I thought it's already been stated that if the game gets saved, there's not a chance in Hell that the Plan Z stuff could be integrated into it, because every single person who has contributed even a shred to it, has to sign off on it being given to "PS" or whoever. Otherwise it's begging for a lawsuit sometime down the road.

Either way, something feels "off" right now. It's been a month to this very day since there's been an official Titan statement. We're in the final month. "Orders, sir?"
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: JaguarX on November 04, 2012, 06:05:50 PM
As I understand it, the "not another penny" statement is more along the lines of protesting NCsoft's poor customer relations; it's a way of saying "they obviously don't care about their customers, so I don't care to purchase their products" and "if they're this abrupt with shutdowns, I don't want to get financially (and emotionally) involved with another of their games because they could just yank it with no warning".

In regards to what happens after Nov. 30th:
Right now, we could still lose our last few weeks of gameplay, but after the servers go down, that's not an issue.  Some players may become more inclined towards spreading negative PR because "what are they gonna do, ban us?".
I'm all for turning up the volume, but we need to be careful of how we do it, especially after Doomsday.

yep.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Manga on November 04, 2012, 06:25:45 PM

Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Terwyn on November 04, 2012, 06:36:09 PM
Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.

Do you have any proof of this?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: downix on November 04, 2012, 06:39:01 PM
Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.
Save your characters with Sentinel then.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: epawtows on November 04, 2012, 07:43:50 PM
Listen up because I said this before in another thread, but I'm trying not to thread-bomb this:

After November 30th, it will be too late, because NCSoft will be deleting all City of Heroes characters.

This is not speculation.  It already happened to a couple of people who ended up with their CoH account "closed" - they got the accounts restored, but with no characters.  They were deleted, irrecoverably.

If the game re-opens after November 30th, we'll lose pretty much everyone who doesn't want to start over their dozens of alts from level 1.

Assuming that has happend:

I have little doubt that the records of those characters still exist, on backups if nothing else.  I.E., NCSoft *could* have restored the accounts with the characters intact, if they wanted to.  They probably don't.  They most likely want to be punative and petty. 

So, if someone does manage to get the IP out of them next year, it *could* have the characters- the data will still exist.  Weather it does or not depends on the terms of the deal.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 04, 2012, 07:51:11 PM
"Whilst it might be considered mean and inconsiderate..."

No offense, CMGangrel, but this happened with no warning at all. I have no patience for NCSoft apologists who say this "may be considered" mean and inconsiderate when it bleedin' well is mean and inconsiderate! And no mush-mouth doubletalk excuses will make it otherwise.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 04, 2012, 08:00:45 PM
i think the largest source of confusion for me is that they still allowed the release of the nature affinity set to live and <1 week later they decide to want to shut the game down

i agree that make it look very bad for other customers because nobody will want to spend any money on ncsoft games if they know that even after major release they could shut the game down for essentially no reason

as far as im concerned im not gonna be getting into any mmos unless they are f2p and premium currency earnable in game so i wont have anything to say i wasted except for time if the game dies
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 04, 2012, 08:36:14 PM
I thought it's already been stated that if the game gets saved, there's not a chance in Hell that the Plan Z stuff could be integrated into it, because every single person who has contributed even a shred to it, has to sign off on it being given to "PS" or whoever. Otherwise it's begging for a lawsuit sometime down the road.

If the game can be saved, this part isn't completely accurate, thanks to the Mission Architect system. However, that would be something done "privately" and something to be considered if/when the time comes.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Omega Mark V on November 04, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
Let's keep our cool, and continue the fight. Remember the "5 P" rule...

I will not give up fighting after CoX's closure. That is our most important goal, no matter whats going on.

Thanks for the update, keep your head held high.

Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 04, 2012, 10:07:22 PM
If the game can be saved, this part isn't completely accurate, thanks to the Mission Architect system. However, that would be something done "privately" and something to be considered if/when the time comes.  Just sayin'.

Yeah, but with MA, anyone can offer up their ideas for free. It's not that someone can't resubmit a story into MA that they wrote for Plan Z, but I'm thinking more along the lines of game design and mechanics. Things that aren't in CoH but we wish was there, and is now in Plan Z. It's just one of those annoying legal quirks that makes it harder and harder to "sell" to someone else as more people contribute to it. It would've been different had there been something all forum users had to sign before posting ideas there, but there really wasn't any time to plan ahead for that.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ampithere on November 05, 2012, 12:57:52 AM
Whether CoH has our characters or not won't impact my decision to continue playing it in the future. If you are fighting to save the game, what does it say about you if you don't play it after it comes back?

"My characters aren't there so I'm not playing."

So...you're saving the game because you don't want to play it?

Honestly that just makes me mad.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 05, 2012, 01:01:09 AM
Gangrel, we're talking past each other because we're running under different premises.

While I let my subscription lapse, my subscription time amounted to over five years. I continued to support the game by purchases.

Had NCSoft given us some warning, I would have happily invested the $15 to spend the last months of CoH's existence in VIP status. With no warning, I was cut off. And I'm far from alone. Just a little notice, a little consideration. A week's notice would not have gotten them into any legal trouble. It would have shown they have some little bit of consideration for their audience.

As it was, everyone was thrown out like the town trunk at last call, a treatment I for one am not accustomed to. This cancellation-without-notice is one of several gestures of contempt NCSoft has shown us.

Ethics are about treating people kindly and respectfully when it is inconvenient to do so. Ethics are not meant to be convenient. Look carefully at your argument. It boils down to, "companies should place convenience over consideration."

NCSoft owns the game. They have every right to close it. I know that. But they have flipped us The Bird in multiple ways.

1. Cutting off purchases without prior notice. (Contempt.)
2. Releasing a major new powerset (nature mastery) three days before the cancellation notice. (Fraud.)
3. Releasing I-24 to Beta before the cancellation, thus giving us all the false idea the game would be around a while. (Mendacity.)
4. Advertising the game as "Play Free Forever." (False advertising, again fraud.)
5. Not responding to our inquiries, ignoring us and hoping we'll all just go away. (Contempt again.)

And finally, I don't care for a company that would cancel a family-friendly, venerable game like City of Heroes, only to publish "Boobs and Shame" (Pandering,) or as I understand, send musclemen to force our devs out of the office, then strip the place (Tyranny.)

These are my grievances with NCSoft. Until they address them, I refuse to have anything to do with them, I will not shut up about their shady business practices, and honestly after this experience I'm going to resist purchasing an MMO ever again. This has nothing to do with "cultural differences" or "profitability" or any other excuses people have made to try to explain NCSoft's behavior. It's about respect -- showing us, the customers, respect.

Hope this clarifies my argument.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Aggelakis on November 05, 2012, 02:56:29 AM
1. Sound business sense. If they continued to allow purchases, they would continuously be required to refund purchases *or* they would create confusion as to why Bob got a refund but Joe did not.
2. Not fraud. If you purchased points on 8/28 to get Nature, you were refunded that purchase. If you had previously purchased points AFTER a certain date and used some to get Nature, you were refunded that purchase. If you had previously purchased points BEFORE a certain date, you had plenty of time (and still have time) to use those points in the store. No fraud there. (Fraud is a very specific term; don't throw it around willy-nilly just because you think it sounds cool.)
3. I24 was in development LONG before the decision was made to close City. I24 was in closed beta probably before the decision was made to close City (above Paragon Studios' heads, without talking to them). I24 went into open beta on 8/8, probably around the same time the decision was made to close City (above Paragon Studios' heads, without talking to them).
4. Not fraud. It's called "puffery" - you can play free, forever, as long as the game is around. Again, fraud is very specific.
5. Not very sound business sense, but understandable because they don't know how to handle this kind of outcry. We're the first to get really stank about it.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Manga on November 05, 2012, 04:55:11 AM
Do you have any proof of this?

Follow this thread:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5943.0.html (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5943.0.html)

It's a day-by-day account of how a friend of mine had her account "closed" and the subsequent behavior of NCSoft support.  Since then, she contacted them once more, and they told her the problem was fairly widespread, but their hands were tied in what they're allowed to do to fix it (e.g. not being able to restore characters).

Also you're all getting off track.  Deleting every single character in a CoH account, in a manner so it's not recoverable, isn't something that often happens by accident.  NCSoft has to have either authorized their server techs to wipe closed accounts daily, or even script it.  This also means, with great certainty, that the day the CoH servers shut down, our CoH accounts close, and the next night everything gets wiped. 

If CoH is ever started back up again, all the accounts will be empty.  A very large number of players will see that years of hard work has vanished, and they will leave.  There is no amount of anger or name-calling which will change that.  And it very well might make the difference between the game being self-supporting and not.  I'm not saying it's time to give up - but after November 30th, everything gets much more difficult.  This is why timing was so important.

Also, Sentinel will not help with this because CoH will never allow you to import a saved character to the server.  That would just open the floodgates to cheating.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 05, 2012, 05:58:51 AM
i would figure that they would not allow the players themselves to import characters

also i think guyperfect mentioned that they have a way to detect if the file has been modified from the original creation (i think from what i read when it does the initial read when you run it, it creates a hash value thats passed through several layers of encryption and if the file is edited in any way it wouldnt match the hash and thus be useless for importing anyway)

(im about 95% sure thats what goes on as i remember from the various sentinel threads when it was first released and some before release, but please correct me if im mistaken in any part)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: eabrace on November 05, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
(im about 95% sure thats what goes on as i remember from the various sentinel threads when it was first released and some before release, but please correct me if im mistaken in any part)
You are correct.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 05, 2012, 04:07:18 PM
...sound business sense. If they continued to allow purchases....

:: Facepalm! :: You're. Not. Listening.

In simple monosyllabic English -- I did not say they should let us buy once the date passed. I said warn us first. What part of that is so hard to get?

"If you purchased points on 8/28 to get Nature..."

My experience contradicts you.

"I24 went into open beta on 8/8, probably around the same time the decision was made to close..."

As you say, it's a case of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing. Another example of the disconnect between NCSoft and Paragon Studios that culminated in Paragon (so I understand, hearsay on this point) getting all but bodily thrown out the door. It still had the side effect of making the abrupt closure announcement all the more shocking and infuriating.

"Not fraud. It's called 'puffery'"

It's called lying. I'm not gonna bandy words with you.

I don't expect anyone to operate the game at a loss for our benefit. I do expect them to take cost-cutting measures, attempt alternative business models, to keep the game going so long as it has some kind of paying audience, just like so many of the other venerable MMOs out there. Their advertising contains that promise, and instead NCSoft has done the opposite. Sadly truth-in-advertising no longer exists and we no longer expect it, and put a figleaf over it with doubletalk words like "puffery."

"...understandable because they don't know how to handle this kind of outcry."

Y'know, I don't see what's so difficult about it. Early on, I wrote a thread called "how to shut down an MMO" that, since NCSoft if determined to destroy this game, outlined how to do it in a way that defuses as many harsh feelings as possible. It's not hard, it's called empathy, taking the trouble to imagine yourself in the other guy's shoes and anticipate how he'd feel and react. Y'know, "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

And that's not a cultural thing either. Master Kong's (Kong Tzu, "Confucius") works reached Korea and he said that about five hunded years before Yeshua did.

Aggelakis, no offense, but I swear if you weren't listed as a Paragon Wiki Admin, I'd suspect you of being an NCSoft sock puppet. You are completely out of touch with why the community here is so upset with NCSoft. It's not just that they're closing the game, it's how they're closing the game and how we're being treated. Heavens, do you really suppose we'd all be cheering when NCSoft's stock falls, creating and posting 'net memes, buying the Devs dinner in sympathy, dredging up the Garriott mess, just because the game's closing? I for one am not that petty. These are legitimate grievances.

"We're the first to get really stank about it."

If I may speak on behalf of the good folks gathered here, we're the first to have so many ethically sound and logically valid reasons.

And Blade and Soul is still pornography.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 05, 2012, 04:26:16 PM
Speaking solely for myself, it's the squatting on dead IPs that pisses me off the most about NCsoft's behavior.  CoH's closure wouldn't bother me nearly as much if I knew that, through either sale or relinquishment, CoH's IP would eventually be up for grabs, and someone else could either buy it, or reverse engineer a server for it, and run it the way it ought to be run.

But I know from experience that NCsoft protects its IPs about as jealously as a vulture protects a fresh carcass from smaller scavengers.  It doesn't matter that an IP isn't making them a single red cent or even a hundredth of a Won, they'll squat on it and refuse to budge.  Long before the Garriots or Tabula Rasa was ever an issue, they did it with Auto Assault, and more recently with Exteel.

Anyone could've told NCsoft that the Garriotts were more than a little crazy.  What really do you expect from a guy that slips self-inserts into every game he's been a part of the making of (Lord British, General British, etc.)?    Anyone who was part of Auto Assault could've told the Garriotts not to get involved with NCsoft.  Now we have the pair of them squabbling like children, and NCsoft has decided to take its ball and go home... but not before kicking his mutual-friend's sandcastle out of spite; that being CoH.

If it wasn't for the fact that properties worth potentially millions were involved here, it would be pitiful.  As it stands, it's just infuriating.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Osborn on November 05, 2012, 05:53:11 PM
Speaking solely for myself, it's the squatting on dead IPs that pisses me off the most about NCsoft's behavior.  CoH's closure wouldn't bother me nearly as much if I knew that, through either sale or relinquishment, CoH's IP would eventually be up for grabs, and someone else could either buy it, or reverse engineer a server for it, and run it the way it ought to be run.

But I know from experience that NCsoft protects its IPs about as jealously as a vulture protects a fresh carcass from smaller scavengers.  It doesn't matter that an IP isn't making them a single red cent or even a hundredth of a Won, they'll squat on it and refuse to budge.  Long before the Garriots or Tabula Rasa was ever an issue, they did it with Auto Assault, and more recently with Exteel.

Anyone could've told NCsoft that the Garriotts were more than a little crazy.  What really do you expect from a guy that slips self-inserts into every game he's been a part of the making of (Lord British, General British, etc.)?    Anyone who was part of Auto Assault could've told the Garriotts not to get involved with NCsoft.  Now we have the pair of them squabbling like children, and NCsoft has decided to take its ball and go home... but not before kicking his mutual-friend's sandcastle out of spite; that being CoH.

If it wasn't for the fact that properties worth potentially millions were involved here, it would be pitiful.  As it stands, it's just infuriating.

Honestly I mostly agree. If NCSoft had shown itself to be like "We're done with this, it doesn't fit with our company, but here, you take this and make something out of it.", I wouldn't have no real problem with them.

My problem with them wasn't that they wanted to make their types of games or they were too un-American or whatever.

My problem with them is two fold. It's the fact that, even if I buy another game of theirs I honestly have no confidence that it'll remain open or viable no matter how much money I dump into it. I can 'do my part' and it won't matter. The second part is the frankly insulting manner that this has been handled. I'm told that I should be OK with being insulted because that's 'how it is done in Korea' but I don't buy it. If I should change my habits to make a Korean audience feel better about my product or views, then honestly it should go both ways. So I've had little tolerance for the excuse of 'If the CEO spits on you, you thank him for the extra water because that's how it's done in Korea'.

Neither problem is unresolvable. Frankly, I'm used to rude businessmen, so the latter I could honestly get over almost entirely the second the first was addressed. But the first won't ever be addressed, it seems, and so my grief with them as a company stands.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 05, 2012, 08:33:16 PM
And Blade and Soul is still pornography.
Debatable. I was under the impression low-grade CGI pornography has slightly higher standards for quality of character models and their animation.  ;D
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: P51mus on November 05, 2012, 10:01:16 PM
Debatable. I was under the impression low-grade CGI pornography has slightly higher standards for quality of character models and their animation.  ;D

Pretty sure they're worse, or most of them are all the same grade of awful.  There's some sort of easy to use 3d modeling program/ready to use models most of them use or something.  Ranges from so bad it's awful to so bad it's funny.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Turjan on November 06, 2012, 12:03:05 AM
But I know from experience that NCsoft protects its IPs about as jealously as a vulture protects a fresh carcass from smaller scavengers.  It doesn't matter that an IP isn't making them a single red cent or even a hundredth of a Won, they'll squat on it and refuse to budge.

Exactly.

I've pondered why this should be the case with every MMO NCsoft have closed and then kept the IP - which basically is all of them. It's my belief now that the single reason for this is NCsoft founder and CEO Taek-jin Kim. And while it's undeniable that the previous MMO closures have all been financially motivated, that still doesn't explain why he's never parted with a single IP. I don't believe the decision to retain these IPs was business motivated at all - not for any of them.

I believe Kim sees himself as a creative visionary, and in some way regards himself as directly responsible for the creativity behind the MMOs NCsoft makes. So when he closes an MMO, he selfishly hangs on to the IPs because he regards them as his creations. And as long as he has the IPs still in NCsoft's hands, he can wander down his MMO Hall of Fame, looking at the IPs frozen in their display cases, and he can live vicariously through the work of others, thinking to himself "I made these worlds!".

I reckon it's all about him - his wants, his desires, his ego. And to be perfectly honest, I'm beginning to wonder now if the reason CoH was closed when it was is to do with Kim's voluntary 'soft merger' with Nexon. I've always thought that financially speaking, keeping CoH alive would make far more sense from the perspective of a joint Nexon-NCsoft association...which is one of the reasons its sudden closure so soon after the Nexon-NCsoft merger (and perhaps more interestingly, less than ONE week after Min Kim took over as head of Nexon US) made so little sense to me.

And so in the absence of logic, I simply stopped thinking logically...and the answer magically became clear...

TJKim wanted CoH closed so he could preserve the IP in his personal company Hall of Fame, his last 'hurrah' before taking a backseat to Nexon. And it served a dual purpose too - not only did he get to keep a unique creative jewel, he also got some vicarious payback against the west, land of Tabula Rasa (which is also still sitting in his IP vault of course).

I'm firmly convinced now that this whole thing was personal. And in making such a petty personal move, TJKim has betrayed tens of thousands of loyal customers, many of whom have paid him faithfully every month for eight years. He lost their trust when he tried to kill their dreams - and as a visionary, that's about the biggest crime he could've committed, for in betraying us, he has also betrayed his own vision for his company.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 06, 2012, 12:15:17 AM
Is it his?  I thought they bought the game from Cryptic and set up Paragon to maintain and continue developing it.  I came to the game shortly before the change, so i wasn't really paying attention to that.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: P51mus on November 06, 2012, 12:21:50 AM
I have no idea whether such a thing is true or not, but I think it sounds too conspiracy theorist to gain traction with most people.  Better to stick to what we can prove, which is how horrible they've acted towards us, and all the IPs they've been sitting on.

Unless you can find some way to prove that.  Not speculate about it.

Ramblings like that with no proof, only speculation, would only serve to make us look like madmen/women.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: eabrace on November 06, 2012, 12:22:47 AM
Is it his?  I thought they bought the game from Cryptic and set up Paragon to maintain and continue developing it.  I came to the game shortly before the change, so i wasn't really paying attention to that.
NCsoft has been the publisher of City of Heroes from day 1.  Cryptic was the initial developer of the game.  NCsoft later bought Cryptic out of their half of the game to become the soul owner of the IP, created NCsoft NorCal (later renamed Paragon Studios), and hiring a handful of developers from Cryptic to continue development of the game.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Turjan on November 06, 2012, 12:53:00 AM
Ramblings like that with no proof, only speculation, would only serve to make us look like madmen/women.
NCsoft stubbornly refuse to provide any logical explanation for their actions, and in the absence of solid facts, rumour, hearsay, speculation, and mad rambling naturally flood in to fill the void.

I said that the conclusion I arrived at is simply one of belief, the result of negative deduction in that (to quote Sherlock Holmes) "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

The beauty of being in the position of a disgruntled ex-customer of NCsoft is that the burden of proof does not lie with me because I am not in possession of the facts. Therefore all I CAN do is speculate. It's up to NCsoft to react to such speculation with the facts they do possess to either prove or disprove any speculation - or they can remain silent and simply invite yet more damaging rumours. It's entirely their call.

For my part however, I too do not see much practical use for such a supposition.
Yet.
But things change...
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 06, 2012, 01:50:55 AM
NCsoft has been the publisher of City of Heroes from day 1.  Cryptic was the initial developer of the game.  NCsoft later bought Cryptic out of their half of the game to become the soul owner of the IP, created NCsoft NorCal (later renamed Paragon Studios), and hiring a handful of developers from Cryptic to continue development of the game.

Fair enough. As I said, it was "before my time," but it would speak to a raging ego problem, if it were true.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 06, 2012, 04:33:15 AM
The bottom line for me is that we lose focus when we try to figure out the motives over at NCSoft.  Trying to figure out motives made sense when we thought that understanding motive might bring them to change their mind, or at least let CoX go to someone who would treat it right.  Now we know that's not true, not at an $80 million price-tag.  Now we know there is only one tactic that will work in our favor.  Let's speculate on motives later.  We need to concentrate on bringing the pain to NCSoft until it becomes too painful for them to keep cybersquatting on our game. 
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Moonfyire101 on November 06, 2012, 04:56:26 AM
New to the forum, Actually just made this account to add my thoughts and support to the fight. CoH was the first MMO that didn't feel bland and meaningless to me. Te first one where I did not have to worry about keeping level with friends or Grinding boringly for hours on end. Reading this abates many of the things I worried about most. However there is one additional factor that we have to consider.

I have many GW playing friends. They like GW, and many of them seem to feel that we are over-reacting. The argument seems to be that NCsoft owns the IP and we should just find a new MMO. I know many people who may wish to spam or unicorn at such words, but I think one of the best things we can do right now is to explain to people, individually, why this is wrong.

As has been said over and over anger will get us nowhere. NCsoft right now is starting to see that their call for this game was a bad one, but they also seem confident in the fact that their new and upcoming titles will offset the losses. We need to appeal individually and en mass to those who use or wish to use NCsoft. Try to explain to them in a friendly and rational matter how it could be their game next, how they could lose an investment with little warning. This isn't like picking up a new game with some DLC from a store. If another Megaman or Monster rancher game never comes out I personally would be very sad, but I still have the ones I own. The same is true for others I am sure. With an MMO though if it goes down it goes down for good and few get the nice, dedicated private servers games like PSO may enjoy when the company no longer cares about the IP.

People need to realize that so long as NCsoft behaves like this, so long as they continue to pull games entirly, all the work and all the effort and all the enjoyment could be gone in an instant due to the short sighted whims of those who may not even care about the game itself.

We are the players, and we are the ones this affects most.

That is what i told people at the con. It could be any game. Welcome to the group too.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 06, 2012, 04:57:52 AM
You are correct.

fantastic, i did that post completely on memory lol
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Terwyn on November 06, 2012, 06:20:40 AM
Follow this thread:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5943.0.html (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5943.0.html)

I do not consider that sufficient proof unless the transcripts of her interactions with NCSoft can be verified.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Undercat on November 06, 2012, 06:41:50 AM
I'm actually rather concerned about the image I'm forming for the head of NCsoft. He seems to be a rather impulsive individual---someone who flies by the seat of his pants, rather than by what his instruments are telling him. He seems like the kind of guy who likes power and would love nothing more than to dig in his heels if it hurts those who have become his enemies. As evidenced by his handling of previous game closures, he's even willing to completely absorb enormous financial losses rather than give comfort to his enemies by liquidating for fractional recovery.

This just doesn't strike me as the kind of individual who is especially subject to the pressures of publicity---especially if it comes from a foreign market a fraction of the size of the one he evidently now has in his sites (China). If we manage to put enough negative pressure on NCsoft, they may simply focus even more intently on the Asian market, perhaps even to the point of abandoning US localizations for some of their Korean titles, but without budging one iota on the matter of liquidating their mothballed IP, including CoX.

In other words, he seems like the kind of guy who would be inclined to pay plenty just for the pleasure of giving us the great big digitus impudicus (middle finger).

That would probably piss me off so much it would give me an aneurism, but I really am starting to wonder. Cripes...I wish I knew what to do.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Quinch on November 06, 2012, 06:45:19 AM
Corporate hierarchies aren't my strong point, but can he be ousted, or rendered ineffective?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 06, 2012, 06:48:27 AM
In other words, he seems like the kind of guy who would be inclined to pay plenty just for the pleasure of giving us the great big digitus impudicus (middle finger).
It ain't Taek Jin Kim we have to deal with.

It's his stockholders.  Who, I should stress, are in the business of watching their investments grow.  If the CEO keeps making decisions that seem to hurt those investments, and keeps getting customers and potential customers pissed off as a result, they're going to pull those investments out.

That's something he can't ignore; these people are the reason why he has a business to run in the first place.

All we have to do, is use solid facts to paint NCsoft as a reactionary, xenophobic company with little to no connection to its Western audience, with a CEO that is making unwise decisions with company intellectual property and endangering the company's bottom line in the process.

Once NCsoft's investors are running scared because of us, they have two choices: come to the negotiating table, or sink beneath it and fail as a company.  Either one serves our goals.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 06, 2012, 06:48:41 AM
Corporate hierarchies aren't my strong point, but can he be ousted, or rendered ineffective?

Based on some of what I've heard, I'm not even sure NCsoft knows for sure how its hierarchy is structured.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Undercat on November 06, 2012, 06:57:56 AM
It ain't Taek Jin Kim we have to deal with.

It's his stockholders.  Who, I should stress, are in the business of watching their investments grow.  If the CEO keeps making decisions that seem to hurt those investments, and keeps getting customers and potential customers pissed off as a result, they're going to pull those investments out.

Yeah, good point. I suppose that the fact Kim's share in the company recently declined from almost 25% to about 10% may have muted his voice some, too. Of course, the other shareholders may also be almost entirely Asian and may not care much about the US market in comparison to the "Chinese prize," but why would a rational investor throw money away?

Kim may not be rational, I don't know, but hopefully a majority of NCsoft's other shareholders will be. I guess we'll see.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: JaguarX on November 06, 2012, 07:14:14 AM
It ain't Taek Jin Kim we have to deal with.

It's his stockholders.  Who, I should stress, are in the business of watching their investments grow.  If the CEO keeps making decisions that seem to hurt those investments, and keeps getting customers and potential customers pissed off as a result, they're going to pull those investments out.

That's something he can't ignore; these people are the reason why he has a business to run in the first place.

All we have to do, is use solid facts to paint NCsoft as a reactionary, xenophobic company with little to no connection to its Western audience, with a CEO that is making unwise decisions with company intellectual property and endangering the company's bottom line in the process.

Once NCsoft's investors are running scared because of us, they have two choices: come to the negotiating table, or sink beneath it and fail as a company.  Either one serves our goals.

You do realize that negotiation is usually more than about serving our goals right? It should be about the benefit of both parties involved.

But you are right about the pain point- We have to get the solid facts.

Now I do agree that NCSOft seem to have little connection to it's western audience but no more less than than most other buisnesses doing buisness in other countries, even US based ones, with some of those seemingly not connected much to their own country besides the cutsomer but having their entire operation based over seas and benefiting that countries economy with jobs, and stuff yet only take money from the US people. But if that is the goal, to paint them as such, first have to understand what Xenophobia actually is. As the definition stands, xenophobia would be very hard to prove there. Unaware or disconnected from the Western ways, easier yes, but I think a little would be expected given that they are mostly Korean based. To prove this point, all you need is the track record of their handling of American products compared to their domestic products and that may prove that or at least prove something. Yet the outcome may not be as glorious as we want it. They may clam up even more and shut down other American games and leave for good and really focus on the Korean grind fest games walking away as not wanting to deal with that headache ever again. Thus COX still will be gone, they still wont sell, and they wont entertain anything coming from this side of the water. Reactionary, the actions should speak for themselves.

Remember we are not the Mafia or mob, or shouldnt be tryign to strong arm them into "do our bidding or else." Unless that is the solid goal and then it should be gone after full force. Right now, some want to negotiate others want to smash them. I dont see how both can be done. Would you want to negotiate with someone that aim is to smash you? That is not a good negotiating starter.

 The goal seems to be getting muddled. We dont have the resources to strong arm them and they probably will justify ignoring us if we tried not to mention would hurt our cause, especially if we try to get investors for plan z. If we are going to burn them, then we should step up the efforts and do it but cant expect at the same time for them to be willing to play nice and open up about the situation or hold us in good regards and can expect them to act like we are beneath their notice. Or we can negotiate, but that takes time, patience, understanding, knowledge of how that buisness works, and listening to both sides even if it sounds like bs. But the goal then cant be all about what we want. We have to think about what benefit would they get from negotiating without outside the usual mob tactic of "Give in to our demands or else you'll pay."
(random)Do people talk to their spouse like these days? (end random)

We need to focus on one and stick with it and go for it full force.

Me personally I would say to hell with NCSoft and lets show them how to build a true game even if we must find some sort of financial backing to get it up and running. But not many companies are going to be willing to invest in it if we come off as we will try to smear and hurt anyone company that doesnt do what we want. Maybe the mafia, but that is a whole nother can of worms.

We have to appear clean...even when we are being grimy. :D
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Copper Cockroach on November 06, 2012, 07:36:07 AM
Exactly.

I've pondered why this should be the case with every MMO NCsoft have closed and then kept the IP - which basically is all of them. It's my belief now that the single reason for this is NCsoft founder and CEO Taek-jin Kim. And while it's undeniable that the previous MMO closures have all been financially motivated, that still doesn't explain why he's never parted with a single IP. I don't believe the decision to retain these IPs was business motivated at all - not for any of them.

I believe Kim sees himself as a creative visionary, and in some way regards himself as directly responsible for the creativity behind the MMOs NCsoft makes. So when he closes an MMO, he selfishly hangs on to the IPs because he regards them as his creations. And as long as he has the IPs still in NCsoft's hands, he can wander down his MMO Hall of Fame, looking at the IPs frozen in their display cases, and he can live vicariously through the work of others, thinking to himself "I made these worlds!".

I reckon it's all about him - his wants, his desires, his ego. And to be perfectly honest, I'm beginning to wonder now if the reason CoH was closed when it was is to do with Kim's voluntary 'soft merger' with Nexon. I've always thought that financially speaking, keeping CoH alive would make far more sense from the perspective of a joint Nexon-NCsoft association...which is one of the reasons its sudden closure so soon after the Nexon-NCsoft merger (and perhaps more interestingly, less than ONE week after Min Kim took over as head of Nexon US) made so little sense to me.

And so in the absence of logic, I simply stopped thinking logically...and the answer magically became clear...

TJKim wanted CoH closed so he could preserve the IP in his personal company Hall of Fame, his last 'hurrah' before taking a backseat to Nexon. And it served a dual purpose too - not only did he get to keep a unique creative jewel, he also got some vicarious payback against the west, land of Tabula Rasa (which is also still sitting in his IP vault of course).

I'm firmly convinced now that this whole thing was personal. And in making such a petty personal move, TJKim has betrayed tens of thousands of loyal customers, many of whom have paid him faithfully every month for eight years. He lost their trust when he tried to kill their dreams - and as a visionary, that's about the biggest crime he could've committed, for in betraying us, he has also betrayed his own vision for his company.

I think you may be on to something. Remember back when TonyV got a hold of the e-mail addresses of some of NCsoft's top big-shots, in the hopes that we could reason with them directly? Guess what handle our pal here goes by (or did... he probably changed it after the first e-mail he got from a CoH player)?

Mr. Taek-Jin Kim, CEO
<snip>

When I saw that, I thought to myself, "Self... you gotta be friggin' kidding me". After Turjan's observation, though, there's no doubt in my mind.

This little jackass considers himself the Leonardo DaVinci of online gaming. A brilliant engineer, despite the fact that he's written not one line of code; a genius artist, despite the fact that he's designed not so much as a single costume piece; a transcendant philosopher, despite the fact that he's never even written a crummy fire farm mission for the AE.

i'm reminded of the controversy from the early 90s, when Japanese businessman Ryoei Saito bought Van Gogh's "Portrait of Dr. Gachet" and triggered international outrage when he announced that the painting would be burned upon his death. It was his, after all, he paid good money for it, he could do whatever he wanted with it... similar display of ego, similar cluelessness, similar contempt for the West. (Saito died in '96; the painting was not burned, probably because Saito (or his heirs) realized the world-wide hatred and scorn that would be heaped on his memory and surviving family... it's since changed hands a couple of times and its location is currently unknown. Hopefully CoH's IP won't pull a similar disappearing act after NCsoft goes belly-up.)



[EDIT: Removed unauthorized posting of email address. We've been asked not to publicize those email addresses. Feel free to do so anywhere but here. ~Agge]
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Turjan on November 06, 2012, 02:16:46 PM
He seems like the kind of guy who likes power and would love nothing more than to dig in his heels if it hurts those who have become his enemies. As evidenced by his handling of previous game closures, he's even willing to completely absorb enormous financial losses rather than give comfort to his enemies by liquidating for fractional recovery.

He's certainly willing to absorb huge financial losses, but not necessarily always to spite his enemies. Don't forget that in 2005 he gave away a 3.84% stake in NCsoft to his wife at the time, Eui-jeong Chung, as part of a divorce settlement. If there's any larger conclusion to be drawn from that though, I don't know what it is - I merely mention the fact for the record.

Divorce, wherever it happens in the world, does tend to follow at least some logical parameters in terms of settlement. But the share deal Kim made with Nexon is less logical...at least on the face of it :-

Speculation mounts over NCsoft (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/06/182_112965.html)

But the more I ponder it, the more I'm thinking Kim's personal "realignment of focus" may be leaning towards taking a backseat, more sort of executive consultant role in the NC-Nexon behemoth. I think he's trying to cash himself out as gracefully as he can while still retaining that needlessly melodramatic 'kibun' culture mask apparently so important in Korean business.

His transfer of power from NCsoft to Nexon earned him $685million from the sale of 2/3 of his personal stock directly to to Nexon...at $16 per share less than the market price, it should be pointed out. A quick calculation shows that in doing so, Kim netted himself $51million less than he would've got if he'd simply sold the same number of shares on the stock market.

So you're talking here about a man who's content to lose $51million as part of some long term scheme. Perhaps he wants to move his attentions to running the company's pro-baseball team - Korean pro-baseball teams do usually run at a loss, so maybe he needs the extra cash in pocket to indulge that particular fancy.

But if he's backing out of running NCsoft, he also wants his legacy to remain...and I think that's where retaining the IPs comes in. Those IPs are his great creative assets of the past - sure, all but one of the ones he's closed were failing financially, but each was its own creative world after all, and I believe he wants to keep them just because of that - they are his 'Trophy Intellectual Properties'.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Quinch on November 06, 2012, 02:51:22 PM
And as long as he has the IPs still in NCsoft's hands, he can wander down his MMO Hall of Fame, looking at the IPs frozen in their display cases, and he can live vicariously through the work of others, thinking to himself "I made these worlds!".

Frankly, the more I think about it, the less I see it as a Hall of Fame, and more as a collection of ears on a string.

But I might be feeling just a little bit hostile.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Undercat on November 06, 2012, 02:52:23 PM
His transfer of power from NCsoft to Nexon earned him $685million from the sale of 2/3 of his personal stock directly to to Nexon...at $16 per share less than the market price, it should be pointed out. A quick calculation shows that in doing so, Kim netted himself $51million less than he would've got if he'd simply sold the same number of shares on the stock market.

Equity trading prices are determined at the margins, not by core investors. Dumping 15% of a company's outstanding shares at once would unquestionably have exceeded elastic demand for the stock, causing its price to tank. It's unlikely, in other words, that he would even have made $680 million if he had tried to sell the stock through the open market mechanism. However, I tend to agree with your point about Kim possibly distancing himself from the day-to-day operation of the company, and that might well be a good thing.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Mister Bison on November 06, 2012, 03:12:05 PM
Mr. Taek-Jin Kim... hopefully it's not an anagram of Mender Silos, or people would really begin to overthink things :-)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Quinch on November 06, 2012, 03:25:19 PM
All I've got is Knit Maim Jerk .
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: jabiggers on November 06, 2012, 03:32:27 PM
This is all just my speculation, but perhaps they are closing City of Heroes to lower the overall operating costs of the company, trying to recoup their loses and development costs when B&S hits stores.

I have a feeling the merger with Nexon is happening in order to re-enter the US market(since they will now have more resources to do so) and with better success. They don't have the right recipe to make a great US game, but maybe Nexon does..

just my 2 cents
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Quinch on November 06, 2012, 03:39:03 PM
There's nothing to recoup, really. With the IP not for sale, and the game having operated at profit, the only assets they actually free up are what, some server banks?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 06, 2012, 04:08:31 PM
Not sure about anyone else, here, but I would not lose a minute of sleep if, whatever the cause, NCSoft goes down like the Hindenburg. Is it what I'm here for? Of course not.  Am I actively pursuing it? Absolutely not. But my most developed characters are red side.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: jabiggers on November 06, 2012, 04:26:18 PM
There's nothing to recoup, really. With the IP not for sale, and the game having operated at profit, the only assets they actually free up are what, some server banks?

I'm talking about Tabula Rasa and Auto Assault, there's a lot of money that was lost there that they would love to make back

but it still would make sense to actually sell the CoH IP to help make up for the lost money, but maybe they don't want to be shown up by another company making CoH more profitable than they did
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Turjan on November 06, 2012, 11:04:37 PM
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 07, 2012, 02:19:10 AM
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: P51mus on November 07, 2012, 07:02:58 AM
This is all so very far over my head. Does this mean I also need a Boycott Nexon pic on my facebook? Anyone got one of those?

Well, according to this conspiracy theory, Taek-Jin Kim(Of NCSoft) killed CoH so Min Kim(Of Nexon) wouldn't be able to run City of Heroes, I think  Seems a bit weird to think that they'd shut down a game so a new business partner wouldn't be able to use it.  I suppose people have done more insane things, but seems unlikely.  Then again, I did think a profitable mmo was extremely unlikely to get shut down, and here we are.

Nexon tends to have pretty shitty customer service (with Tickets taking weeks to resolve at times), the free nexon points stuff is really shady(I'm pretty sure most of the surveys are scams), and they really agressively push their cash shop stuff, but they do make some interesting games that tend to have you fighting large amounts of enemies at once (as opposed to the player equals 1 mob mmo style, which I believe NCSoft games other than CoH follow).
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Knightslayer on November 07, 2012, 08:36:00 AM
(as opposed to the player equals 1 mob mmo style, which I believe NCSoft games other than CoH follow).
Hmm, the only exception there would be GW1 I think - but then again, you have either a party of NPCs with you, or other players to help you fight the (sometimes large) groups of mobs.
You might be able to in Lineage 2 as well, since I remember fighting multiple enemies in the first game too.
Aion is generally one or two mobs at a time.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: cygnata on November 08, 2012, 02:23:01 PM
Just be careful that after the shutdown, all copies of the server code and anything else related to the engine might "disappear" with a reformat. "Oh, sorry, we *can't* bring it back, it all got deleted!"
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Terwyn on November 08, 2012, 02:56:49 PM
Just be careful that after the shutdown, all copies of the server code and anything else related to the engine might "disappear" with a reformat. "Oh, sorry, we *can't* bring it back, it all got deleted!"

They do that, there shall be no mercy. Ever.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 08, 2012, 03:31:49 PM
Unlikely, it's almost always archived somewhere (until all copies eventually go extinct to media failure or corruption).
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: DrakeGrimm on November 08, 2012, 11:52:39 PM
The complete deletion of all related materials would result in a maelstrom so potent the resulting backlash would make their ancestors quake in fear.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Mistress Urd on November 09, 2012, 07:21:17 AM
Heh, I see that Valve is joining forces with Nexon.   :P Ouch!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Aggelakis on November 09, 2012, 07:51:00 AM
Currently only for Dota2.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 09, 2012, 08:05:38 AM
at least nexon is still making some smart decisions to promote some of their games

im not 100% sure if its nexons fault that the coh closure decision was made, but of course theres still quite a lot of ambiguity in whats going on that anything could be possible, nearing an episode of conspiracy theories lol
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Knightslayer on November 09, 2012, 08:18:39 AM
The complete deletion of all related materials would result in a maelstrom so potent the resulting backlash would make their ancestors quake in fear.
In all honesty, IF they decide to do that, I doubt any of us will ever hear about it, they would never say why it'd be impossible to revive the game, just that it's impossible and thank us for our interest in CoH or something along those lines.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: emu265 on November 09, 2012, 10:38:27 AM
They do that, there shall be no mercy. Ever.
I very much doubt this would ever happen.  Erasing everything doesn't really make any sense.  Even if it did happen, we would never hear about it anyway.  But in that vein, I'd love to know where the reverse engineering team stands at this point.   
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: JaguarX on November 09, 2012, 07:26:26 PM
I very much doubt this would ever happen.  Erasing everything doesn't really make any sense.  Even if it did happen, we would never hear about it anyway.  But in that vein, I'd love to know where the reverse engineering team stands at this point.

whoa! I thought it has been more than firmly stated, at especially on the COH forum, that there was no such thing as an effort to reverse engineer here?

Soooooo is there an effort now to do that?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ironwolf on November 09, 2012, 07:54:49 PM
Two ways to reverse engineer an item of software - one is legal the other is not.

1. You can for reaons of understanding code and to ensure you don't copy other IP make a working copy of an item of software to study it - you can't actively operate it other than for research. This is going on.

2. Reverse engineer to open your own off the grid server - this one is not in the works as I personally know. If it is they would get a Cease and Desist letter in a short time from NCSoft with no doubt.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: JaguarX on November 09, 2012, 08:11:45 PM
coooool.

what are we researching?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Codewalker on November 09, 2012, 09:14:43 PM
The plan is to build a working server (from scratch) for research and archival purposes, in accordance with the laws that permit reverse engineering for interoperability.

If we are able to secure a license to use the content, or if NCSoft as a company ceases to exist at some point in the future, and causes ownership of the IP to become unclear, then we will be prepared for that event so that we can publicly operate a set of servers.

This effort is completely unrelated to plan Z; the people involved in it are not working on that project.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: JaguarX on November 09, 2012, 10:44:16 PM
The plan is to build a working server (from scratch) for research and archival purposes, in accordance with the laws that permit reverse engineering for interoperability.

If we are able to secure a license to use the content, or if NCSoft as a company ceases to exist at some point in the future, and causes ownership of the IP to become unclear, then we will be prepared for that event so that we can publicly operate a set of servers.

This effort is completely unrelated to plan Z; the people involved in it are not working on that project.

That is one hell of a good idea.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: emu265 on November 10, 2012, 05:24:43 AM
The plan is to build a working server (from scratch) for research and archival purposes, in accordance with the laws that permit reverse engineering for interoperability.

If we are able to secure a license to use the content, or if NCSoft as a company ceases to exist at some point in the future, and causes ownership of the IP to become unclear, then we will be prepared for that event so that we can publicly operate a set of servers.

This effort is completely unrelated to plan Z; the people involved in it are not working on that project.
Would you happen to know how this is coming along? :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 10, 2012, 06:48:55 AM
Would you happen to know how this is coming along? :)

The first rule about how this is coming along....
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Luna Eclypse on November 10, 2012, 02:14:08 PM
The first rule about how this is coming along....

"Don't ask?"
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Fansy on November 10, 2012, 02:23:07 PM
The first rule about how this is coming along....

My fair Lady, everyone knows the answer to this riddle!

''Fish sticks'' says I. And nothing more!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 10, 2012, 02:47:30 PM
As someone who has a bit of experience with reverse engineering simpler things (mostly early-to-late 90's game saves / data formats), I can tell you that these things take a lot of work and even more experimental data.
After November 30th, any such attempts will be stuck with only archive data to work from (assuming they have any).

Unless there's a large team of skilled people working on those (I know one of them has only one developer), Plan Z is more likely to be completed before either of them.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Tommy2Toes on November 11, 2012, 06:47:57 PM
The complete deletion of all related materials would result in a maelstrom so potent the resulting backlash would make their ancestors quake in fear.

You say that like you have power to actually DO something about it.  What are you going to do?  Boycott NCSoft?  Not like that matters.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Turjan on November 11, 2012, 10:28:40 PM
You say that like you have power to actually DO something about it.  What are you going to do?  Boycott NCSoft?  Not like that matters.
A single drop of water can be easily brushed away. An ocean can flatten a mountain.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 12, 2012, 12:50:05 AM
You say that like you have power to actually DO something about it.  What are you going to do?  Boycott NCSoft?  Not like that matters.

It would seem that it matters enough to Starbust magazine and its 250,000 readers.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Tommy2Toes on November 12, 2012, 01:42:04 AM
It would seem that it matters enough to Starbust magazine and its 250,000 readers.

Perhaps but if those 250,000 readers represent 0.01% significance to NCSoft, my question remains.  What does a boycott matter unless it equates to measureable impact to the target.  You bandy about threats like they have any merit when clearly they don't.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Artillerie on November 12, 2012, 01:57:39 AM
Perhaps but if those 250,000 readers represent 0.01% significance to NCSoft, my question remains.  What does a boycott matter unless it equates to measureable impact to the target.  You bandy about threats like they have any merit when clearly they don't.

Please, we have a lot of people here who just want to do our best to save our game and preserve our community. Even if we cannot continue to enjoy City of Heroes then we will know that we did our best. Instead of losing hope and only seeing the negative side of things, i would urge you to read through this forum and maybe gain something positive from it.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Aggelakis on November 12, 2012, 02:07:30 AM
Perhaps but if those 250,000 readers represent 0.01% significance to NCSoft, my question remains.  What does a boycott matter unless it equates to measureable impact to the target.  You bandy about threats like they have any merit when clearly they don't.
The way to get measurable results is to start small. No one ever starts out with a billion people boycotting something.

(Please note, I am not personally boycotting NCsoft. I like Guild Wars 2 and ArenaNet, and I am enamored of WildStar. Thus I cannot.)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 12, 2012, 02:22:05 AM
Perhaps but if those 250,000 readers represent 0.01% significance to NCSoft, my question remains.  What does a boycott matter unless it equates to measureable impact to the target.  You bandy about threats like they have any merit when clearly they don't.
So are you saying we shouldn't even try?  So we shouldn't even care?  Give up, move on, accept whatever crap gets shovelled into our mouths and like it?

No.  We're going to do everything in our power to fight this.  Why?  Because we have something we care about, and something worth fighting for.  And I for one will not be accused of sitting idly by while some corporation walks all over me and thinks it can dictate what I can and cannot enjoy.

Sure, Starburst is advocating a boycott of NCsoft.  It's fairly small, 250k readers.  Some of 'em might not even go through with it.  But it's only one (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6471627997) of (http://www.boycottowl.com/NCsoft/701) several (http://www.change.org/petitions/ncsoft-keep-ncsoft-from-shutting-down-city-of-heroes) boycotts and other efforts to try and Save CoH.

Read the Thank the Media (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,4908.0.html) thread some time.  Take a real close look at the spreadsheet in the OP.  Make sure to look at both tabs.  We've gotten a lot of coverage already.  Even if the boycott itself fails, it gets the word out.  People get curious, and people look back here.  Some of 'em start getting worried about NCsoft's business practices.  Some of 'em might be investors.

What I'm saying is, this thing can snowball.  We've already seen some evidence of it.  Take a look at the NCSoft Stockwatch (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5250.0.html) thread.  Particularly, look at the Reuters Stock Graph (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) based on data from Korea Stock Exchange.  From Nov. 7th  to today, NC's been in a steady decline, currently sitting at 174.5k won/share.  They haven't been this low since early April of 2010.  Sure, not all of that is our doing, but I find it hard to believe we've had no effect at all.

Ultimately, it's customers that control whether a business thrives or dies.  Customer faith makes a business a success, and breaks them just as easily.  Our best chance of making NCsoft reconsider its decision is to undermine the faith its customers have in it.  If gamers playing NC's other products start worrying that they could be next, we've done our job.  If investors start shying away from NCsoft on account of their mistreatment of us, then that's even better.

Raking NC's public image through the mud of it's own poor decisions via any responsible, respectable, legal means available to us is the best option we have.  If you got a better suggestion, then let's hear it.  If not, then would you kindly get the hell out of our way.  Criticizing those who are actually trying to get something done, through whatever options they have to do it, is even more useless than a failed protest or boycott.  Don't complain at us for 'wasting' our time, when you're quite clearly willing to waste yours.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Surelle on November 12, 2012, 02:27:40 AM
Perhaps but if those 250,000 readers represent 0.01% significance to NCSoft, my question remains.  What does a boycott matter unless it equates to measureable impact to the target.  You bandy about threats like they have any merit when clearly they don't.

I don't even think it's merely a question of how many CoH players refuse to have anything to do with NCSoft again.  I think it's more a case of the straw that broke the camel's back:  Former CoH players, combined with former Tabula Rasa players, combined with former Auto Assault, Dungeon Runners and Exteel players, etc., combined with current Aion and Lineage 2 players....   

Have you seen how Aion's profits just keep nosediving come every new earnings report?  Those players are completely disgusted with NCSoft's lack of support (they launch very buggy, completely untested new patches directly onto the live servers because they're too cheap to even keep a public test server running in the west, they let gold farmers and lag overrun their games, and they spend their time making it take twice as long to level--doubling the XP curve-- then jacking up the prices of XP pots on the cash shop).  Players are not investing money into NCSoft anymore.  And a lot of them are leaving altogether.  Try Aion sometime-- it is run exactly this way.

So "bandying about" this or that, even if it encompassed every single CoH player that is or ever was, is only one part of a much larger avalanche that I am still quite convinced is going to bite NCSoft in the arse come Blade & Soul's launch more than they ever imagined it could.  Their reputation has hit rock bottom and commenced digging.  And I think continuing to remind all those other disenchanted gamers of what NCSoft is continually like via honest press and forum/blog posts is necessary to keep momentum going right up through Blade & Soul and Wildstar's launches and beyond.

Just my two cents.  Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Tommy2Toes on November 12, 2012, 03:39:25 AM
My point is that all this internet tough guy talk about "woe be to NCSoft if they make me mad!" is just silly.  Boycotting them is irrelevant at this stage.  Clearly, NCSoft does NOT WANT COH customers in their fold.  That's clear or they would have handled this much differently.  They don't care about anyone posting on here, your money OR your opinions.  Its meaningless to bluster about it, you have no power over their future as they have already divorced you from their future.  With extreme prejudice.

Its like a really bad breakup.  The wife has dumped you, moved on and has already remarried someone else.  They don't want you anymore.  You can keep pining away at them, begging to reconsider, but they've already gotten on with their life without you.  Get on with your own life, or throw efforts into supporting the Plan Z or whatever comes next.  Why isn't there a magazine with 250,000 readers proclaiming support for Plan Z?  Why isn't there a fundraising effort underway to support even the marketing of Plan Z?  Where's the letter writing campaign in support of the "spiritual successor of COH?"  How many of you are sporting banners on your Facebook page saying "Support Plan Z!"

People want to grouse because grousing is the easy part.  Boycotting is simply "doing nothing."  Its passive.  It requires absolutely zero effort to boycott something.  That's why its a popular mantra....because its all about nothing.  And a magazine boycotting NCSoft is about as effective as the Pope boycotting a Death Metal concert.  Who cares, he wasn't going to attend it in the first place, so how is that of any financial impact to the concert?  Unless you find a way to get ACTIVE subscribers of NCSoft's top properties to leave EN MASSE it means absolutely nothing.  Its just noise.  By a bunch of "do-nothings" that are too lazy to "do-something" active in defiance instead.

You want to get NCSoft's attention?  Compete with them.  LOUDLY.  They don't care about the playerbase of COH.  They want you to go away.  Boycott them?  Sure, that's exactly what they want from you...to leave.  Competing is the only chance for survival here.  Anything else is just words.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ironwolf on November 12, 2012, 04:01:11 AM
4 posts Tommy and all of them are meant to cause us to quit fighting.
How do we know you don't work for the PR group? Your posts are exactly what I would post to discourage people.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Artillerie on November 12, 2012, 04:11:07 AM
Tommy, you are coming to this forum and asking us to quit. By the sounds of what you say - you are not even a player.

I have not been with Titan for very long but in that time i have seen a few like you pop up. I don't know the reasons why you should spend your time trying to discorage us and i realy don't care. We are not quitters, it gives us personal satisfaction to fight on.

If you really wish to spread your opinion about - please start a new thread where it can be discussed without disrupting this one.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 12, 2012, 04:15:47 AM
My point is that all this internet tough guy talk about "woe be to NCSoft if they make me mad!" is just silly.  Boycotting them is irrelevant at this stage.  Clearly, NCSoft does NOT WANT COH customers in their fold.  That's clear or they would have handled this much differently.  They don't care about anyone posting on here, your money OR your opinions.  Its meaningless to bluster about it, you have no power over their future as they have already divorced you from their future.  With extreme prejudice.

Its like a really bad breakup.  The wife has dumped you, moved on and has already remarried someone else.  They don't want you anymore.  You can keep pining away at them, begging to reconsider, but they've already gotten on with their life without you.  Get on with your own life, or throw efforts into supporting the Plan Z or whatever comes next.  Why isn't there a magazine with 250,000 readers proclaiming support for Plan Z?  Why isn't there a fundraising effort underway to support even the marketing of Plan Z?  Where's the letter writing campaign in support of the "spiritual successor of COH?"  How many of you are sporting banners on your Facebook page saying "Support Plan Z!"

People want to grouse because grousing is the easy part.  Boycotting is simply "doing nothing."  Its passive.  It requires absolutely zero effort to boycott something.  That's why its a popular mantra....because its all about nothing.  And a magazine boycotting NCSoft is about as effective as the Pope boycotting a Death Metal concert.  Who cares, he wasn't going to attend it in the first place, so how is that of any financial impact to the concert?  Unless you find a way to get ACTIVE subscribers of NCSoft's top properties to leave EN MASSE it means absolutely nothing.  Its just noise.  By a bunch of "do-nothings" that are too lazy to "do-something" active in defiance instead.

You want to get NCSoft's attention?  Compete with them.  LOUDLY.  They don't care about the playerbase of COH.  They want you to go away.  Boycott them?  Sure, that's exactly what they want from you...to leave.  Competing is the only chance for survival here.  Anything else is just words.


I see your point, even agree with it for the most part. Thing is I still won't pay for any game NCSoft has published in the future. Mostly it's because none of their other games interest me, but how they handled CoH has been such a slap in the face that I really think they are a crappy company. I cannot articulate all the D-bag things they did properly, it's close to my bedtime so I can't really articulate period. But they shut down and tore up Paragon Studios in one day, the did it on a busy weekend in order to avoid bad press, and have given a horrible reason of 'we're going a different direction and won't regret this action' as to why they are closing. Now they own CoH and we don't, so they have every right to wipe their butt with it if they so choose. They don't have to take our money, let us play the game, or tell us a damn thing. I know that.

But I don't like it. No one likes it, some just accept it better than others. If NCSoft could give us a good understandable reason for shutting down CoH, that'd probably get 90% of us off the SaveCoH Train. But they haven't, they won't, and because they won't a number of conspiracy theories have cropped up as to why they will not. Some of them are very fun, in fact there should be a consolidated thread on them.

Now, with NCSoft's record of closing MMOs, I don't think I will play another MMO from them. Why? Because I'm a woman and can hold a grudge FOREVER (serious, just ask my 2nd grade boyfriend Tyler). And, because I have spent over $1000 on City of Heroes. At least 5 years of active subscription, bought expansions and extra packs. And I've spent thousands of hours working on my characters. On December 1st I can never play City of Heroes again. All that money, all that work, is gone forever.

In comparison I spent maybe $200 on my Mass Effect games plus DLCs, I can play those anytime I want to. Today, tomorrow, 10 years from now. Those will always work for me because even if Bioware or EA Games says they are going in a different direction, they can't press a magic button that keeps me from playing it.

I think that got off track and might even show that I've been drinking this evening. Anyway. You are right that by competing with them and providing a better product than them will be more effective than boycotting them. Well, that's in the works but until then I'm loudly (and apparently drunkenly) still boycotting NCSoft. Because I think as a customer who has given more than $1000 of her hard earned money (very often my entire entertainment budget for the month was the $15 for my subscription, I was laid off for 6 months a few years ago and couldn't even afford that much and had to suspend my subscription for a time - I have to choose carefully where my money goes) that more is deserved from NCSoft. Not in compensation, just in respect.

So, I will not purchase or play any other NCSoft title. I will not install any of their games, in fact when the final nail is driven into the coffin I'm even looking forward to uninstalling the PlayNC Launcher. Because I do not respect the company, nor do I like them. And should I hear anyone talking about them or their titles I'll happily tell them what NCSoft did to other well-liked games so they think twice about giving them money, too.

Now...how did I run out of rum? Dang it.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Tommy2Toes on November 12, 2012, 04:34:37 AM
4 posts Tommy and all of them are meant to cause us to quit fighting.
How do we know you don't work for the PR group? Your posts are exactly what I would post to discourage people.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.

Oh c'mon.  PR group?  Don't you think if NCSoft had a PR group that gave a rats behind about the COH community they'd be doing something in PUBLIC to address you?  The only people here on this forum are COH players, active and former.  The whole point of PUBLIC Relations is, you know, the public part LOL.

As for altering the course of history....whining about how you'll "get NCSoft" ain't changing anything.  You want to change history, help market a successful COH 2.  Otherwise, you are just clawing at your own coffin lid.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Lily Barclay on November 12, 2012, 04:37:10 AM
My point is that all this internet tough guy talk about "woe be to NCSoft if they make me mad!" is just silly.  Boycotting them is irrelevant at this stage.  Clearly, NCSoft does NOT WANT COH customers in their fold.  That's clear or they would have handled this much differently.  They don't care about anyone posting on here, your money OR your opinions.  Its meaningless to bluster about it, you have no power over their future as they have already divorced you from their future.  With extreme prejudice.


The point of the boycott is to expand it beyond CoH players.  That's why news outlets are beginning to pick it up.  NCSoft shuts down games.  More games than any other company. CoH became the thing that really showed how dangerous NCSoft is when it comes to killing games because it provided the example that NCSoft will shut down anything at any time, even if it is profitable enough to fund itself and other projects.  That's why the boycott came out of CoH instead of the other games NCSoft shut down.  It means that players can't be confident that their NCSoft game will keep going even if it is doing well, because NCSoft may realign their focus and shut it down.  So how do you keep that from happening in another NCSoft game?  Don't start playing them in the first place.  Boycott NCSoft because they don't inspire enough consumer confidence to give them your money.

This isn't solely about NCSoft making us mad.  It's about the fact that NCSoft isn't stable enough to provide an ongoing quality product, and people should know that.  And not buy their products.  That's the difference here. 
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 12, 2012, 05:59:29 AM
"Raking NC's public image through the mud of it's own poor decisions via any responsible, respectable, legal means available to us is the best option we have."

NCSoft has swindled us, answered our pleas in the negative, and our protests with stony silence. Destroying their public image by every means available appears to be the only option of the average gamer, like myself. I did warn that if we went on the attack, they would erase CoH simply out of spite. Since we are now on the attack, I have given up hope of saving Paragon City.

My intent now, apparently shared by so many other players, is to erode away NCSoft's reputation, boycott them and encourage others to do the same. That's all I can do.

"...whining about how you'll 'get NCSoft' ain't changing anything."

Probably not, but I don't intend to quit. If NCSoft exists twenty years from now, I shall, God willing, still warn people away from them. Thanks loads for the moral support. Here, have some lemon and salt to rub into our wounds. Would you like to lick the tears from our faces now, Tommy Two-Tongues?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Twisted Toon on November 12, 2012, 06:27:38 AM
My point is that all this internet tough guy talk about "woe be to NCSoft if they make me mad!" is just silly.  Boycotting them is irrelevant at this stage.

The same could be said for the NYPD filling the streets of NY and shooting their 9 mils at an invading army of space aliens. Yet, they did just that in the Avengers. And really, I wouldn't have given 6 guys, no matter how super they may be, a snowballs chance of actually defeating that same army. Yet, it happened in the movie.

Granted, that was scripted into an entertainment media, but the point still stands. Thoe people were up against very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad odds and they did not give up.

I live by my family motto.  Dum Spiro Spero.  Translation: While I can breath, I hope. Nothing may come of it, but I still hope.

I truly feel sorry for those of you who give up hope so quickly and easily.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ironwolf on November 12, 2012, 11:49:56 AM
As a famous man once sang:

You can stand me up at the gates of hell but I won't back down.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Rotten Luck on November 12, 2012, 02:01:25 PM
The same could be said for the NYPD filling the streets of NY and shooting their 9 mils at an invading army of space aliens. Yet, they did just that in the Avengers. And really, I wouldn't have given 6 guys, no matter how super they may be, a snowballs chance of actually defeating that same army. Yet, it happened in the movie.

Granted, that was scripted into an entertainment media, but the point still stands. Thoe people were up against very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad odds and they did not give up.

I live by my family motto.  Dum Spiro Spero.  Translation: While I can breath, I hope. Nothing may come of it, but I still hope.

I truly feel sorry for those of you who give up hope so quickly and easily.

I give you a real life example.  No one said give up to the first responders who rushed in to ground zero after the towers fell.  No one said don't try to save anyone even thought all logic said anyone in the rubble would be dead.

We know like them our chances are 0.000000000001%, But 0% is still enough.  It's not about winning it's not about getting what we want.  It's about Trying and refusing to give up.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Turjan on November 12, 2012, 02:20:30 PM
My point is that all this internet tough guy talk about "woe be to NCSoft if they make me mad!" is just silly.  Boycotting them is irrelevant at this stage.  Clearly, NCSoft does NOT WANT COH customers in their fold.  That's clear or they would have handled this much differently.

This statement contains both WIN and FAIL.

The WIN is that NCsoft would indeed have handled this differently if they understood exactly what type of players CoH has.

The FAIL is to assume 'not wanting' and 'not understanding' are the same thing.

Basically, NCsoft took us for granted. They assumed that closing CoH would just make us scamper off and chow down on another of their bland grind-o-matic offerings. But the CoH devs themselves have said that the strength and volume of the SaveCoH response took NCsoft completely by surprise, forcing the company to break their traditional "Wall of Silence" approach in an attempt to mollify us and get us to shut the hell up.

And again in this, they misunderstood us.

To suggest that NCsoft didn't want to retain loyal customers of 8 years' standing is nonsensical. It costs a company far more to acquire a new customer than to retain an existing one. They just assumed we'd stay, and stay quiet, because they're the mighty corporation and we're just the people who pay their salaries.

They were wrong.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Nafaustu on November 12, 2012, 04:25:33 PM
<snip>

Its like a really bad breakup.  The wife has dumped you, moved on and has already remarried someone else.  They don't want you anymore.  You can keep pining away at them, begging to reconsider, but they've already gotten on with their life without you. 
</snip>

Its actually more like that wench has my boat and doesn't fish, and i'll be damned if I let her take something I love and she doesn't out of spite.    I'm not willing to burn it down, but until she sets it on fire and its nothing but ashes, i'm going to try and get it back.    8)

And before anyone gets mad, i'm a woman. :P
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Sylvanus on November 12, 2012, 05:26:14 PM
Is there an organized plan?  If so, where are we with that?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 12, 2012, 06:24:29 PM
There's something like half dozen in different states of organization. Several of them operate on the principle of either convincing NCSoft it's bad for their business to shut down the game,  or to sell it off instead of shutting it down.
Then there is Plan Z, which amounts to creating a brand new superhero MMO that carries over the general spirit of CoH if not neccessarily the precise mechanics or IP.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Twisted Toon on November 12, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
I give you a real life example.  No one said give up to the first responders who rushed in to ground zero after the towers fell.  No one said don't try to save anyone even thought all logic said anyone in the rubble would be dead.

We know like them our chances are 0.000000000001%, But 0% is still enough.  It's not about winning it's not about getting what we want.  It's about Trying and refusing to give up.
That would have bee my next example.  :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 13, 2012, 02:29:13 AM
All right people.  I want you to put THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc) on heavy rotation on your music player of choice.  Enjoy the last days until the shutdown and know that we are not even close to being finished.

Quinch, Ammon, Rae and I are working on a crazy-but-it-might-work plan.  A sideshoot of that same plan (we can use the same pitch to both places) is one my husband Larry Dixon is working on.  We should be ready to hit you guys with what you can do in a few days.  This is new stuff for me, I have never worked on a marketing pitch of this magnitude before, but the worst that can happen is that we'll be turned down.

And I have heard from Brian Clayton and expect to talk to him on the phone on Wednesday (he has been out of the country at a family wedding, and unfortunately tried to get hold of me while I was out of the country at World Fantasy.  I'll bring him up to speed and with luck we can recruit him, and maybe some of the devs, as well.

TUBTHUMPING!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Golden Girl on November 13, 2012, 02:34:21 AM
I'll be ready and waiting to do whatever I can to help this latest plan of attack.

EDIT: Going by the wording, I'm assuming that this is a post-shutdown rescue effort?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 13, 2012, 02:58:00 AM
I'll be ready and waiting to do whatever I can to help this latest plan of attack.

EDIT: Going by the wording, I'm assuming that this is a post-shutdown rescue effort?

Unless someone can stop time, I don't see shutdown being averted.  Business decisions don't happen overnight, and this is a longshot, I am not going to blow smoke up anyone's derriere about that.  But if you don't try, you automatically cannot win.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Terwyn on November 13, 2012, 02:59:52 AM
Unless someone can stop time, I don't see shutdown being averted.  Business decisions don't happen overnight, and this is a longshot, I am not going to blow smoke up anyone's derriere about that.  But if you don't try, you automatically cannot win.

The only losing move is to not go on playing/trying. Basic game theory. ^_^
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Golden Girl on November 13, 2012, 03:04:46 AM
Unless someone can stop time, I don't see shutdown being averted.  Business decisions don't happen overnight, and this is a longshot, I am not going to blow smoke up anyone's derriere about that.  But if you don't try, you automatically cannot win.

Yeah, I guessed that - I was just wondering if any new proposal might have included an offer to cover NCSoft's costs for running the servers for 1-2 months while a transition was made, to help keep the core community together.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 13, 2012, 03:11:02 AM
Yeah, I guessed that - I was just wondering if any new proposal might have included an offer to cover NCSoft's costs for running the servers for 1-2 months while a transition was made, to help keep the core community together.

I don't think even a tentative decision for that could be made quickly enough, just based on my experience working with businesses. 
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: pogoman on November 13, 2012, 03:19:14 AM
I am standing by, ready, willing, and able, to do whatever i can to help this out! 

*Prays and hopes REALLY hard this plan works.*


KEEP HOPE ALIVE!!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Cinnder on November 13, 2012, 07:15:32 AM
Quinch, Ammon, Rae and I are working on a crazy-but-it-might-work plan.

I like the cast; looking forward to seeing the first trailer!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Mister Bison on November 13, 2012, 09:45:42 AM
Yeah, I guessed that - I was just wondering if any new proposal might have included an offer to cover NCSoft's costs for running the servers for 1-2 months while a transition was made, to help keep the core community together.
At this present point we would all like them to accept any offer that doesn't end up in the accounts being closed, and this offer is even above that. But I'm all behind it.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Segev on November 13, 2012, 01:39:45 PM
The only losing move is to not go on playing/trying. Basic game theory. ^_^
Well, as long as you're not playing in a casino. There, the only losing move is often continuing to play.

However, that's not the game we're playing! So keep it up, keep going!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Knightslayer on November 13, 2012, 03:10:56 PM
All right people.  I want you to put THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc) on heavy rotation on your music player of choice.  Enjoy the last days until the shutdown and know that we are not even close to being finished.

Quinch, Ammon, Rae and I are working on a crazy-but-it-might-work plan.  A sideshoot of that same plan (we can use the same pitch to both places) is one my husband Larry Dixon is working on.  We should be ready to hit you guys with what you can do in a few days.  This is new stuff for me, I have never worked on a marketing pitch of this magnitude before, but the worst that can happen is that we'll be turned down.

And I have heard from Brian Clayton and expect to talk to him on the phone on Wednesday (he has been out of the country at a family wedding, and unfortunately tried to get hold of me while I was out of the country at World Fantasy.  I'll bring him up to speed and with luck we can recruit him, and maybe some of the devs, as well.

TUBTHUMPING!
*sighs* Youtube doesn't want me to watch that one apparently... *mutters rude things about regional restrictions*
Can't wait to see more of the plan though!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Terwyn on November 13, 2012, 04:49:55 PM
All right people.  I want you to put THIS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc) on heavy rotation on your music player of choice.  Enjoy the last days until the shutdown and know that we are not even close to being finished.

Quinch, Ammon, Rae and I are working on a crazy-but-it-might-work plan.  A sideshoot of that same plan (we can use the same pitch to both places) is one my husband Larry Dixon is working on.  We should be ready to hit you guys with what you can do in a few days.  This is new stuff for me, I have never worked on a marketing pitch of this magnitude before, but the worst that can happen is that we'll be turned down.

And I have heard from Brian Clayton and expect to talk to him on the phone on Wednesday (he has been out of the country at a family wedding, and unfortunately tried to get hold of me while I was out of the country at World Fantasy.  I'll bring him up to speed and with luck we can recruit him, and maybe some of the devs, as well.

TUBTHUMPING!

Anything I can do to help?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: omegaultima on November 13, 2012, 06:25:22 PM
I think, at this point, we should step up the non-polite methods, as we've given them all the chance they'd need with polite, and they blew it.  We can no longer get back exactly what we had before, with all of Paragon Studios in other jobs/seeking jobs.

This is not just about the game, it never was; it's about the community, the family, the WORLD we all collectively built, worked on, lived in, grew up in, and loved, these past 8 years.  To let up, to GIVE up, would not only be a disservice to ourselves, but to all of our sweat, blood, and tears that the Devs and us have put in.


Apologies for any incoherency, I'm kinda just thought-streaming here.  :-\
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ironwolf on November 13, 2012, 06:44:14 PM
Here is the thing - relentless positive efforts will do 2 things for us:

1. Increase our own morale - very important if the game closes without a new owner in sight.

2. Increase the pressure from other sites. If we move to nasty business it will alienate a lot of people. The fact we have stayed above the fray and fought as heroes should is gaining us respect every day. Companies spend millions of dollars to try and create a game with loyal passionate fans. The fact that a company has exactly what others struggle to find the recipe for and is willing to just toss us on the trash heap, really leaves the gaming community stunned.

The unique ability to customize characters, powers and the very world we live in makes this a game like no other. You literally could never travel out of a single zone and yet create your own world in the AE and live within your own minds vision. No one has ever made a world online with this much power.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 14, 2012, 01:27:23 AM
Anything I can do to help?

ALL OF YOU are going to be part of this plan.  In fact, we are counting on you. 

Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Golden Girl on November 14, 2012, 01:34:50 AM
ALL OF YOU are going to be part of this plan.  In fact, we are counting on you.

Will it be violent? :P
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 14, 2012, 01:39:18 AM
ALL OF YOU are going to be part of this plan.  In fact, we are counting on you.

Ok I'm totally the kid that opens Christmas presents early and reads the last chapter of the book first, I cannot sit in anticipation long at all sooooooooo....

What is this super duper uber awesome secret plan?????
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ammon on November 14, 2012, 01:46:56 AM
What is this super duper uber awesome secret plan?????
Secret, of course. :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Stellar Agent on November 14, 2012, 01:50:16 AM
ALL OF YOU are going to be part of this plan.  In fact, we are counting on you.

You have no idea how excited I am by this news.  I have felt so useless, reading and watching and waiting.  To be fair, in the beginning, I sent the e-mails, did the FB and Twitter stuff, but it always seemed to be a lot like The Flee vs. The Giant; annoying but not overly effective in changing his course of action.

Waiting with bated breath,
Stellar Agent
Victory Server
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 14, 2012, 01:52:01 AM
Secret, of course. :)

Can I get anything out of you so I can at least stop twitching?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ammon on November 14, 2012, 02:12:57 AM
Can I get anything out of you so I can at least stop twitching?
I can't prescribe drugs you know! :D
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Artillerie on November 14, 2012, 02:35:52 AM
You have no idea how excited I am by this news.  I have felt so useless, reading and watching and waiting.  To be fair, in the beginning, I sent the e-mails, did the FB and Twitter stuff, but it always seemed to be a lot like The Flee vs. The Giant; annoying but not overly effective in changing his course of action.

Waiting with bated breath,
Stellar Agent
Victory Server

I understand how you feel Stellar, been seeing a fair number of people express the same feeling. Part of the problem is that the results from individual efforts by people like us are very difficult to percieve.

I think of it like advertising where a company spends a lot of money in order to attract the attention of a lot of people. In this case however, we are getting a lot of people to attract the attention of a company - and it is costing the company a lot of money  :)

Individually we count for little but in a co-ordinated effort we can exert a great deal of pressure. We just have to keep it going long enough.

Also the people who are out there trying to make deals and keep our community going need us. They can prove the worth of saving City of Heroes by pointing to the number of people on this forum or the number of people who post protests on the NCSoft Facebook page. All of these efforts, while small, add up to a greater whole.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 14, 2012, 02:42:19 AM
I can't prescribe drugs you know! :D

I'm fully prepared to bribe you with baked goods.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 14, 2012, 02:53:45 AM
I'm fully prepared to bribe you with baked goods.

Maybe some combination of the two? ;)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Arctic Force. on November 14, 2012, 03:17:38 AM
I can't prescribe drugs you know! :D

No need for a prescription in Washington & Colorado. >.>
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: epawtows on November 14, 2012, 03:42:56 AM
I'm fully prepared to bribe you with baked goods.

People at the Sci-Fi club tell me I bake a mean cheesecake  8)

Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 14, 2012, 03:44:59 AM
"I have felt so useless, reading and watching and waiting."

Yup. Same. My skillsets really don't apply, except to give some advice here and there.

"Individually we count for little but in a co-ordinated effort we can exert a great deal of pressure. We just have to keep it going long enough."

I hope you're right.

"ALL OF YOU are going to be part of this plan.  In fact, we are counting on you."

You have my sword....
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 14, 2012, 06:07:40 AM
I don't want to get peoples' hopes up too high.  This is a crazy longshot.  It's also requiring every bit of the writing skillset I've spent 62 years acquiring, baking my brain, and probably doing the same for Rae, Quinch, and Ammon too.  But like you, I can't just sit here and NOT try it.  And I am reminded of the joke my friend Ellen Guon told me:

Every day, Moishe would go to the temple and pray.  "Yaweh, please, I'm so poor, please, let me win the lottery!"

This went on for ten years.

And one day when Moishe went to the temple, the sky opened up!  Beams of light shone down on him!  And a mighty voice spoke from on high!

"For crying out loud, Moishe!  FIRST YOU GOTTA BUY A TICKET!"

So...we're buying a ticket.  Maybe the same lousy odds, but by Yaweh, we are buying that ticket.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 14, 2012, 01:47:03 PM
OK, I was going to make this a PM to VV, because saying, "Hey, [celebrity], I had a dream about you" is general a great way to end up on the express bus to Restraining Order Plaza, but I just find this one too hilarious.

I kid you not, I dreamed, last night, that the "super secret plan" was a heist, and you guys needed me to "crack" the security. It made complete sense, in-dream, and there was this complete, Ocean's 11 type plan that started with Mercedes having an appointment with NCSoft management as the "in" to get us in the building.

Apparently, my dreams are directed by Steven Soderberg. Anyway, I had to share it, because it had me sitting up laughing after I woke up. (Which weirded my wife out a little...)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Rae on November 14, 2012, 01:49:44 PM
Ooh, I hope I was the contortionist?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Segev on November 14, 2012, 02:03:58 PM
Whatever the plan is, you can count on my small army of skeletons and zombies. I won't volunteer my ghasts; gotta keep my bodyguards close. Paladins are SO twitchy with their evil-dar.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 14, 2012, 02:13:13 PM
There was a Catherine Zeta-Jones from Entrapment type bit, at one point. The context of it is a little fuzzy, at this point, but I believe all the "heist movie tropes" were well represented. :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Rotten Luck on November 14, 2012, 02:41:08 PM
Great now I see myself as the comic relief sidekick.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Triplash on November 14, 2012, 02:45:53 PM
Apparently, my dreams are directed by Steven Soderberg.

You could do worse. They could be directed by Michael Bay.

The sun would keep getting in your eyes, VV would transform into a cybernetic fountain pen, and half of Korea would be destroyed in the final battle.

It wouldn't be a very deep dream, but at least it would be entertaining!  :D
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Quinch on November 14, 2012, 06:12:17 PM
I don't want to get peoples' hopes up too high.  This is a crazy longshot.  It's also requiring every bit of the writing skillset I've spent 62 years acquiring, baking my brain, and probably doing the same for Rae, Quinch, and Ammon too.  But like you, I can't just sit here and NOT try it.

Longshot might be underselling it. Crazy, even moreso. Everything we have done so far has been a longshot, from the rally to the emails and capes and cowls and roping the media, given what we're up against, a multicontinental monstrosity of a megacorporation that hasn't treated us with more acknowledgement than one would give to ants in a picnic. The fact that we've been - are, in fact - trying to overcome something of this scale, and not destructively, but constructively... I don't think I've, until now, thought to step back and admire the sheer audacity of what's being prepared.

I'm reminded of a scene in Chrono Trigger. I don't know how many of you played it, or even remember it. It's, by no stretch of imagination an iconic moment, but it's one that's always stuck in my memory. The characters are told that the way ahead, the only way out, the only way of merely not being slowly but surely stomped out of existence is a path that nobody has ever returned alive from.

"Gotta try, right?"

And at that point, everything crystallises. I could never see those three words being spoken with any spark of home. I couldn't even hear them with determination. All I could see is grim, desperate realism, because all around them, the world is dying. Humanity as a whole slowly being extinguished, without escape, without hope, and the only other thing left to do is to push forward - forward into something that has never been accomplished before, something that may very well be impossible to accomplish no matter what - and realizing that the only choices left to take are to struggle, and risk and toil for the sake of a hopelessly improbable victory, or lay down and accept the easy certainty of defeat.

I, honestly, don't expect us to win this. I don't know how many of us really do. But I am willing to struggle, and risk and toil to prove myself wrong, because when time runs out and hope vanishes and determination loses all direction, I'll be able to look back and know that I didn't accept the easy certainty of defeat. I'll know that for years and decades to come, there will be one less "if only" to torment myself with whenever I look back on this game and think how differently things might have gone. And so, here we are, trying to harness forces that are, when you step back and look at it, quite literally beyond our understanding because, well...

Gotta try, right?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 14, 2012, 06:57:19 PM
Long shot? Crazy? If it works, it will just be a highly unorthodox approach. :)

Really, what's the worst thing that could happen if we try and fail? We have everything to win and nothing to lose, here - other than what we'd lose if we never tried to begin with. And so, if we can try... why not?

It's not "gotta try" for me. It's "no reason to surrender, so why not give it our best shot?".
Strangely relevant:
(https://i.imgur.com/A0fpn.jpg)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 14, 2012, 07:02:46 PM
I gotta pop up and repeat myself -yeah, again!- that this is not the end.

Ideas are bulletproof. Ideas always come back. They mutate and change and resurface. There's no stopping a good idea. CoH is a good idea.

Even should NCSoft do its level best to stomp CoH into the ground, hide the code in a vault and never speak of it again, the good idea will respawn elsewhere, later, better than ever. Then we won't care that CoH is hidden away. All they'll have in their vault is a pile of old code no one cares about anymore, except as a historical footnote.

But the bad karma they earned will endure until NCSoft changes ownership, names, and essentially ceases to exist.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: V-Mink on November 14, 2012, 07:24:02 PM
We're really up against an immovable object here.  NCsoft has demonstrated a complete unwillingness to see CoH exist in any form that we recognize.  We don't know why that is, only just this.  Fighting multinational corporations who are beholden solely to their stockholders -- and if NCsoft's stock plummeting is any indication, not even tham, it seems -- and not to the consumer/customer, is always, always a loosing proposition with a rare few exceptions.  We are also fighting against denigration from our so-called "fellow" gamers, who have heaped scorn on our desire to simply keep playing CoH.*

Longshot?  Crazy idea?  The deck was stacked against us from the start.  So whatever it is, it can't make things worse.  And... it just might work.

Waiting patiently for more information from VV and TonyV.  Then, action.


* - I'd like to see how well they'd like it when their modern military FPS du jour gets completely blocked and removed from the Internet.  But, to each their own.  I'm sure Contemporary Conflict 3: The Duty Calls VI: The Coming Storm II: Special Rainbow Part 3: Burgundy Ops: Cunning Hammer DLC is fun for them, and this is all about enjoying our own games of choice.

ETA: No, really, I know it's called FPS.  I was being... ironic, yeah.  That's the ticket!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 14, 2012, 07:39:50 PM
Waiting patiently for more information from VV and TonyV.  Then, action.


Ditto. Though wish they'd just tell us already! I just hope their plan doesn't involve pickles.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Turjan on November 14, 2012, 08:16:57 PM
I'm all in favour of crazy plans that are so crazy, it just...might...work! - as long as we keep an eye out for meddling kids. If there's such a thing as the opposite of a patron saint, then that's what meddling kids are when it comes to crazy plan territory ;)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Flashtoo on November 14, 2012, 08:20:10 PM
Chrono Trigger was my first great love in gaming, Quinch. Things would be a lot simpler if we could just confront Taek Jin Kim, force him back into his true form as a twelve-foot-tall goat/slug monster, and unload.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Mister Bison on November 14, 2012, 10:37:46 PM
No one has ever tried this before...
That's why it's going to work
(The Matrix) (http://youtu.be/oZ1-M8O70zk?t=1m55s)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Rae on November 14, 2012, 11:09:49 PM
Secret plan is secret.

In the meantime, can I make my daily plea for some volume raising? Tweet some of the memes ,chat in the FB groups and extra specially comment on articles and blogs.

Twitter users, don't forget to use the hashtags saveCoH, hkstrat (Nc softs pr agency) and Nc soft.  Make sure you're seen and heard.

Pressure the sites who ran the "Nc soft says no" piece copy and pasted to find out what efforts they exhausted, thank the sites who wrote kind articles, put forward concerns you have on the ones who didn't.

Politely, of course.

There's a spreadsheet of all the media articles in the 'thank the media' thread, and even more links on the thread itself.  Make us popular with the gaming sites, interact ,boost their traffic so they did feature us some more.

It'd be such a huge help, and if we support those sites and magazines, they should support us, and put pressure on NC Soft.

If the article you want to see written about CoH/saveCoH doesn't exist yet, open a blog, join a citizen journalist site like nowpublic and get it out there. Show NC Soft we're still here, strong as ever and we won't shut up.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 15, 2012, 12:29:30 AM
I had a long talk with Brian Clayton today, and he was encouraging.  He's going to fact-check us and be the go-to guy if it works.  I have to say I feel much better about trying this since he didn't immediately shoot it down, and in fact said essentially that any longshot is worth pursuing at the moment.

For those of you worried about the Paragon staff, they've managed to get jobs for about 60 of the 80.  However...Brian indicated that if CoH rises from the ashes, he should be able to get the core group together again. 

We promise we'll keep you as updated as possible.  Meanwhile, as Rae said, continue the pressure.  Brian told me that NCSoft is definitely feeling the heat over this, it took them completely by surprise and they are very much not happy about it.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Golden Girl on November 15, 2012, 12:32:11 AM
I had a long talk with Brian Clayton today, and he was encouraging.  He's going to fact-check us and the the go-to guy if it works.  I have to say I feel much better about trying this since he didn't immediately shoot it down, and in fact said essentially that any longshot is worth pursuing at the moment.

For those of you worried about the Paragon staff, they've managed to get jobs for about 60 of the 80.  However...Brian indicated that if CoH rises from the ashes, he should be able to get the core group together again. 

We promise we'll keep you as updated as possible.  Meanwhile, as Rae said, continue the pressure.  Brian told me that NCSoft is definitely feeling the heat over this, it took them completely by surprise and they are very much not happy about it.

Can we repost this on the official CoH forums?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 15, 2012, 12:33:25 AM
We promise we'll keep you as updated as possible.  Meanwhile, as Rae said, continue the pressure.  Brian told me that NCSoft is definitely feeling the heat over this, it took them completely by surprise and they are very much not happy about it.
*reveals a wide, fang-filled grin*

This is the kind of news that makes this worth fighting for.

You'll have to excuse me.  I must go laugh maniacally about this.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 15, 2012, 12:38:25 AM
Can we repost this on the official CoH forums?

Yes you may.  I especially want people to know that at least 3/4 of the former Paragonites are not going to have to start living in their cars.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 15, 2012, 12:48:17 AM
So, not a heist, then?  :(
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 15, 2012, 12:51:35 AM
So, not a heist, then?  :(

If this were an action movie, I'd be in trouble.  Unless I was the old-lady decoy, who distracts the marks with her senile fumbling and partial-deafness.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Terwyn on November 15, 2012, 12:56:30 AM
If this were an action movie, I'd be in trouble.  Unless I was the old-lady decoy, who distracts the marks with her senile fumbling and partial-deafness.

Nah, you're the mastermind. :P
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Golden Girl on November 15, 2012, 12:57:37 AM
If this were an action movie, I'd be in trouble.  Unless I was the old-lady decoy, who distracts the marks with her senile fumbling and partial-deafness.

That's known as the Yoda strategy ;)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: eabrace on November 15, 2012, 12:58:35 AM
Nah, you're the mastermind. :P
Kaiser Soze.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 15, 2012, 01:00:13 AM
That's known as the Yoda strategy ;)

EH?  WHAT?  THIS IS THE EM CEE SLOTH BUILDING?  I DON'T WANT A RAPPER SLOTH!  I'M LOOKING FOR MY KITTEN!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 15, 2012, 01:29:41 AM
EH?  WHAT?  THIS IS THE EM CEE SLOTH BUILDING?  I DON'T WANT A RAPPER SLOTH!  I'M LOOKING FOR MY KITTEN!
Don't forget to flail at the guards with your handbag for being 'ruffians' and 'hooligans' when they try to escort you out.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 15, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
Decoy, yes, but it was way more in the vein of Kathy Bates in Fried Green Tomatoes. Only cooler. Like I said, my recollection is fuzzy, as it was a dream, but you were "the money," and the rest of us were your "assistants and lawyers."
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Electric-Knight on November 15, 2012, 02:01:50 AM
I'm still here and ready and willing!
Crazy, longshot plans are what life is all about!

Also...
EH?  WHAT?  THIS IS THE EM CEE SLOTH BUILDING?  I DON'T WANT A RAPPER SLOTH!  I'M LOOKING FOR MY KITTEN!
This seriously made me laugh rather loudly!  ;D


It's been nice to have some good vibes around my limited CoH time lately. Regardless of the outcome, it has been great standing and fighting alongside all of you. I believe these bonds will continue, regardless.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: downix on November 15, 2012, 02:15:20 AM
I had a long talk with Brian Clayton today, and he was encouraging.  He's going to fact-check us and be the go-to guy if it works.  I have to say I feel much better about trying this since he didn't immediately shoot it down, and in fact said essentially that any longshot is worth pursuing at the moment.

For those of you worried about the Paragon staff, they've managed to get jobs for about 60 of the 80.  However...Brian indicated that if CoH rises from the ashes, he should be able to get the core group together again. 

We promise we'll keep you as updated as possible.  Meanwhile, as Rae said, continue the pressure.  Brian told me that NCSoft is definitely feeling the heat over this, it took them completely by surprise and they are very much not happy about it.
If this works out, I'll never have been so happy to have two months of worth flushed down the toilet in my life!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 15, 2012, 06:53:50 AM
"I had a long talk with Brian Clayton today...."

Just to clarify for everyone, here's the Paragon Wiki entry.

Brian Clayton is the General Manager of Paragon Studios and the Executive Producer of the "City of" franchise, which includes City of Heroes, City of Villain, City of Heroes: Going Rogue and City of Heroes: Freedom. Brian was the executive producer of the "City of" franchise with NCsoft since the game's inception, and became General Manager of the new NorCal studio once the "City of" IP was fully acquired by NCsoft in 2009.

"Brian told me that NCSoft is definitely feeling the heat over this, it took them completely by surprise and they are very much not happy about it."

Heh heh hehhhh....

However, if NCSoft simply feels obligated to shutdown before selling to another custodian, I feel a little bit guilty about injuring them as much as we have. (They may never live down "NCSoftcore."  ;D ) Granted, poor communication kills. They could have avoided this whole inbroglio had they been forthright with us.

Perhaps it is time to alter course.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Mister Bison on November 15, 2012, 07:30:33 AM
Brian told me that NCSoft is definitely feeling the heat over this, it took them completely by surprise and they are very much not happy about it.
This is so much my face right now (and I think many others)
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=content9.flixster.com%2Fphoto%2F13%2F46%2F74%2F13467499_gal.jpg)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 15, 2012, 09:47:44 AM

However, if NCSoft simply feels obligated to shutdown before selling to another custodian, I feel a little bit guilty about injuring them as much as we have. (They may never live down "NCSoftcore."  ;D ) Granted, poor communication kills. They could have avoided this whole inbroglio had they been forthright with us.

Perhaps it is time to alter course.

Oh by no means do NOT feel sorry for NCSoft.  And don't alter course.  Every bit of the grief they are getting, they have earned three times over.  It was an hour plus long talk...and I got an earful.

Keep up the pressure; remember that as NCSoft feels the heat, the asking price for City will drop further.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: eviella on November 15, 2012, 09:57:07 AM
And over the past few days I've started to have hope again.  So I'll keep playing the game- I'm sure decent numbers the last few weeks will help keep any BUYERS interested- and keep doing anything I can, expecting updated orders Dec. 1.

My thanks to everybody once again, the community here matters a LOT to me even if I haven't had much to actually say.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Atlantea on November 15, 2012, 10:07:10 AM
OK, I was going to make this a PM to VV, because saying, "Hey, [celebrity], I had a dream about you" is general a great way to end up on the express bus to Restraining Order Plaza, but I just find this one too hilarious.

I kid you not, I dreamed, last night, that the "super secret plan" was a heist, and you guys needed me to "crack" the security. It made complete sense, in-dream, and there was this complete, Ocean's 11 type plan that started with Mercedes having an appointment with NCSoft management as the "in" to get us in the building.

Apparently, my dreams are directed by Steven Soderberg. Anyway, I had to share it, because it had me sitting up laughing after I woke up. (Which weirded my wife out a little...)

Ooh ooh! Can I be the wheelman for the Bolo Stealth RV? :D

Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 15, 2012, 10:12:37 AM
Flails at the security goons with her Giant Purse.

HOOLIGANS!  RUFFIANS!  DOES YOUR MOTHER KNOW YOU BEAT UP HELPLESS OLD LADIES?
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 15, 2012, 01:16:49 PM
Keep up the pressure; remember that as NCSoft feels the heat, the asking price for City will drop further.

As much as I hate playing Devil's advocate, this seems counter-intuitive to me, based on my brief time as a car salesman.  So, bearing in mind that I wasn't a very good one, we were told that interest in the product weakened the buyer's negotiating position. Particularly if there is more than one interested party, NCSoftcore (I, for one, am never letting go of that one, even if they "redeem themselves.") may see an opportunity to, if nothing else, stick it to us.

Just because it was the bully's fault for spilling his drink on himself, he's still likely to blame us for bumping into him. (And, that is why I leave the writing to the professionals! ;))
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Segev on November 15, 2012, 01:56:07 PM
If this were an action movie, I'd be in trouble.  Unless I was the old-lady decoy, who distracts the marks with her senile fumbling and partial-deafness.
Congratulations; I just pictured you as Mrs. Weston (the main character of Burn Notice's Mom).
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Segev on November 15, 2012, 01:59:54 PM
As much as I hate playing Devil's advocate, this seems counter-intuitive to me, based on my brief time as a car salesman.  So, bearing in mind that I wasn't a very good one, we were told that interest in the product weakened the buyer's negotiating position. Particularly if there is more than one interested party, NCSoftcore (I, for one, am never letting go of that one, even if they "redeem themselves.") may see an opportunity to, if nothing else, stick it to us.
While this might be more "red side" than "blue," making something unattractive to hold on to is a tactic that buyers with sufficient PR clout have used in the past to overcome this supply/demand law. Now, it won't help in the face of multiple interested buyers bidding it up, but it will help ensure that NCSoft will sell at the best price it can get, rather than trying to drive the price up higher with negotiating tactics.

Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 15, 2012, 02:27:56 PM
Flails at the security goons with her Giant Purse.

HOOLIGANS!  RUFFIANS!  DOES YOUR MOTHER KNOW YOU BEAT UP HELPLESS OLD LADIES?
Perfect.  Now the deception is complete.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 15, 2012, 02:48:32 PM
Thank you, Segev. The whole thing just recast as the folks from Burn Notice. Rae, you are now, and forever, Fi. :p
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Rae on November 15, 2012, 03:01:52 PM
I'll take it  ;D
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Ammon on November 15, 2012, 03:11:24 PM
As much as I hate playing Devil's advocate, this seems counter-intuitive to me, based on my brief time as a car salesman.  So, bearing in mind that I wasn't a very good one, we were told that interest in the product weakened the buyer's negotiating position. Particularly if there is more than one interested party, NCSoftcore (I, for one, am never letting go of that one, even if they "redeem themselves.") may see an opportunity to, if nothing else, stick it to us.
There are two vital reasons why our continued support for COH must be not only strong, but also seen to be strong.

The first is that Marketing is all about supplying a demand.  You see, old style businesses would invent or make something, and then look for a way to sell it to people.  Marketing turned that backwards, and was the first time real strategy was applied to business.  Marketing looks for where people already want something, and then looks at how you can produce it and make profit.  We need to show that City of Heroes still has a market - people wanting it and prepared to pay for having it.

The second is that we have already affected NCsoft's willingness to sell, and our continued action not only increases the value to any prospective buyer by showing them there is still strong consumer demand for the 'product', it also makes NCsoft more and more eager to sell it and have us go back to playing and ceasing to give them such a terrible black eye.

Our continued action and noise makes a deal after the closure a lot more possible.  It helps push the desire by both the buyer and seller to reach an agreement.  It makes the buyer see more opportunity in buying it, and it makes NCsoft see more cost to keeping it.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Colette on November 15, 2012, 07:54:26 PM
"Every bit of the grief [NCSoft is] getting, they have earned three times over."

There's more than what we've heard? Dang! Message received and understood. :: Salutes. ::

"NCSoftcore (I, for one, am never letting go of that one, even if they 'redeem themselves.')"

And I shall continue to be insufferably pleased with myself for stumbling upon that little gem.

"You'll have to excuse me.  I must go laugh maniacally about this."

I've been practicing. Laugh with me! Mwuh hahha hahhaaa!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: dwturducken on November 15, 2012, 09:09:59 PM
I didn't say it was a perfect analogy. :)
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: KnightHawk Prime on November 15, 2012, 10:43:12 PM
Thank you, Segev. The whole thing just recast as the folks from Burn Notice. Rae, you are now, and forever, Fi. :p

Rae as Gabrielle Anwar in a slinky short black dress, with a Barrett Light .50?

OooooOOOooo! *falls out of chair.*

2cp. ;]
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Palladiamors on November 16, 2012, 11:41:59 PM
Here it is.  Good to see this thread wasn't as plagued by...unicorns as the one on the official forum.
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 17, 2012, 04:30:13 AM
Congratulations; I just pictured you as Mrs. Weston (the main character of Burn Notice's Mom).

MIIIIICHAEL!    MIIIICHAEL!   GET THESE THUGS OFF OF ME!
Title: Re: Current position/Update
Post by: downix on November 17, 2012, 08:18:27 AM
Here it is.  Good to see this thread wasn't as plagued by...unicorns as the one on the official forum.
No, we have our own threads for Unicorns:

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5582.0.html (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5582.0.html)

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.freeimagehosting.net%2Ff8oho)