Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: Artillerie on October 25, 2012, 01:05:33 PM
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Hi there. I hope this has not been posted yet but it seems very new so far. A week or so ago - 2 at the most i posted this on the NCSoft FB page -
우리는 영웅이되는 법이지
이런 우리가 할 일입니다!
당신은 듣게 될 것입니다 우리의 목소리!!
우리는 멈추지 않을거야!!!
저장 우리의 시티 의 영웅!!!!
Which essentially means -
We are heroes.
This is what we do!
You will hear our voice!
We're not going to stop!
Save our city of heroes!!
Today i recieved this reply, seen at least 1 other person got it too -
Dear NCSOFT Facebook Fan,
We feel immense gratitude towards your love and enthusiasm of 'City of Heroes'. It has been quite the privilege and we would like to thank you all. 'City of Heroes' is the world's first and best Super Heroes MMORPG. It has received unconditional love for more than 8 years and it is like a family member of this company.
However, to provide a better game and service in the future, we have made the tough decision to discontinue the game. It was very hard on all of us here at NCSOFT.
NCSOFT will strive for a better game and superior service and anticipates the day that we will meet again. We are confident that we will not look back towards today's choice with regret.
Lastly, for the users who enjoy other games of NCSOFT, we would greatly appreciate it if you can hold back the negative and hurtful comments.
Thank you very much.
This is my reply -
Thank you for your reply. Whilst i appreciate the fact that i may never have played City of Heroes without the work of NCsoft, i have to take issue with some parts of your reply. Firstly - if, as you say, the game is 'the best super heroes MMORPG why are you cancelling it? Surely it would put your company in a better light to preserve it in order to display not only this fine game - loved by thousands - but also your loyalty to the customers who has committed so much time and money to it.
Secondly, are you really sure that cancellling CoH will 'provide a better game and service in the future'? We have all seen examples of Blade and Soul and are universally baffled as to why you would replace a family safe game with another that can only be described as purile at best. It will not be recieved well except by the most shallow of gamers and unlike the players of City of Heroes - their loyalty will be very flimsy.
Thirdly. Sadly your notion of 'service' and mine differ greatly it seems. You are cancelling this great game just as a matter of realigning policy, this is not service - it is the opposite of service. The fact that you are willing to offend your customers with this kind of casual dismissal drives our determination to save the game.
Finally, we are all striving to avoid being 'negative and hurtful', we would much prefer to just carry on as before. Unfortunately NSCofts actions have made carrying on impossible. What kind of people would we be to just let this unwise decision go unchallanged? CoH is a lively ongoing product with years more left in it and a legion of loyal followers. The game is well known for the dedication of its players, many of whom are older, steadier and more determined.
We would ask you to urgently reconsider your decision and if you cannot bring yourself to do this then we ask you to sell the game to someone who will treasure it and the loyal players who for eight and a half years have enjoyed this wonderful game. There is nothing else like it.
Thank you very much.
I hope this is appropriate. I would urge as many as possible to follow up on this, read into it what you like but i can't help but see it as a good sign.
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I'd say that's not only appropriate but a masterful response. Nicely written!
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I been passing out links to the Facebook site myself. I posted my own reply.
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Given their patronising and dismissive reply to your initial comment, I'd say you showed great restraint there actually, and got your point across perfectly - excellent work! :)
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Oh, now they can hear us. :roll:
You know, its odd that suddenly, after months, they can finally reply to our concerns and criticisms, when they could not be bothered to reply to all the nice polite requests for a price or an open discussion...
I see only one thing in their response there ... Fear. I do not see genuine remorse, honesty, or a willingness to finally talk with us. But, oh boy, I sure see them terrified of what we can and will do. Its as if they know exactly what we've been discussing here as our next move, isn't it? ;)
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Great job indeed!
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It's like how the mule trainer uses his two-by-four - first you get their ATTENTION...
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Oh, now they can hear us. :roll:
You know, its odd that suddenly, after months, they can finally reply to our concerns and criticisms, when they could not be bothered to reply to all the nice polite requests for a price or an open discussion...
I see only one thing in their response there ... Fear. I do not see genuine remorse, honesty, or a willingness to finally talk with us. But, oh boy, I sure see them terrified of what we can and will do. Its as if they know exactly what we've been discussing here as our next move, isn't it? ;)
That's pretty much what I got from it, they are noticing the negative press spreading and are hoping to do a little damage control.
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I re-considered part of my post and edited it. But here's the part I edited out. Just in case you think I should post it as a separate replay now or later. Perhaps this should be posted on December 1st.
You HAD our loyalty. Many of us made videos and spread the word among other gamers about City of Heroes. WORD OF MOUTH of the DEVOTED CUSTOMER was what kept the game alive for 8+ years! How the hell else do you think it was still making money? You certainly spent NOTHING on advertising the last few years! WE DID IT FOR YOU.
Every ounce of trust in you is GONE. And where once you had loyal customers, now you have made ENEMIES. Every single player of City of Heroes who once played and loved the game and spread the love of the game by that same word of mouth that kept it going will now be turned squarely against you.
You think to placate us? You cannot. You think to shut us up? You cannot. You think we will buy anything from you? WE WILL NOT.
And we will do our utmost to spread the word to every gaming site, every gaming magazine. Every facebook page. Every blog. Every news site. We will spread the word of your DISHONOR and DISRESPECT to your customers. Your lack of Face.
You have destroyed the "kibun" of a community the size of a middle-sized city. You think you can survive that as a company? Think again. Look at your stock numbers. They are in freefall. And we will work to see that they STAY in freefall.
Now you will reap the whirlwind.
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Wise to edit that back for now, aye - that's a larger caliber comment altogether! Best to save that for the bigger boom-boom battles to come I reckon :)
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Funny, I've been posting that on the NCSoft page. All my responses 'disappeared'. No email. Hmm.
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NCSoft...
I can smell your fear...
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I found this Cheezburger pic - I wonder if this cat works for NCsoft? ;)
(https://i.imgur.com/FVJz0.jpg)
Also... Enigma : I Love You... I'll Kill You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsuUHbjXA7Q)
I think I'll have to caption a new bipolar Mars Attacks (http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/NCSoft%20the%20MMOKiller/SchizoGameCEO_supportshutdown_zpsc4b27e4a.jpg) panel with the love you/kill you concept now ;D
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I'm considering re-emailing the CEO etc. I still have the email addresses from when they were posted. Frankly, if their attitude is to delete posts and block users, I see zero reason to play nice any longer.
If they were going to sell, then yes. But they've bare-faced lied about 'exhausting all options' and I don't see them doing anything except continuing to be a cross between a Trappist monk and an ostrich. So how do you get an ostrich to remove it's head from the sand? Use dynamite on the sand.
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I recently had a... spirited... conversation with a person in-game on the Beta server. Not gonna name names, outta respect for the guy's dignity, but he was claiming that "a better superhero MMO would come along, and CoH would be forgotten." And he claimed he had "inside tips" and that we should "trust him."
The response basically consisted of just about me and everyone else on Beta saying "dude you're full of it." He's right that a better superhero MMO might come along, but if it does, it'll only be because Titan Network developed it. Even then, CoH won't be forgotten, because the MMO we're working on is dedicated to the memory of CoH. NCSoft will never know success in the superhero MMO market again, if they're ever inclined to reenter it, because they've made enemies of all the fans they might have had. Even if they hadn't, they still gutted Paragon Studios. Those devs have other jobs now, and they're the only people in the market with proven success at making a super hero MMO.
I often think that honestly, had NCSoft tried to sunset City of Heroes in a responsible fashion, with considerations to the playerbase and an attempt to have a legitimate reason for shutting it down, we might not be so outraged right now. But they didn't. They took the most heavy-handed, arbitrary, unreasonable attitude they could towards us, and that is the main reason for our outrage. Then NCsoft had the gall to meet our (polite) requests for information or reconsideration with a silence so thick a Warwolf couldn't tear through it.
The response we got here can only, only mean fear. I think it's finally dawning on them just what kind of hornet's nest they've kicked. What kind of monster they've awoken. They're begging us to go back to sleep and let them continue unopposed.
Nope. I don't know about you, but this monster doesn't like rude awakenings.
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"We are heroes.
This is what we do!
You will hear our voice!
We're not going to stop!
Save our city of heroes!!"
That's a negative and hurtful comment? 8)
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*At NC HQ*
Ring ring... "Hello NCsoft main office how may I help you?" "yes I'm a Stock holder and investor and I notice this thing on the Facebook page... what this guy ranting about city of heroes for?" gulp "please stand by I redirect you to the PR office."
Yeah it can hurt!
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Artillerie,
You can read and write in Korean?
Do you have any idea how much we need that?
NCSoftcore can safely ignore all our slogans, funny pictures and complaints so long as they aren't posted in Korean and put into Korean message boards. Can you translate them and find the places to put 'em?
Then they would begin to understand just how angry they have made us.
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"However, to provide a better game and service in the future, we have made the tough decision to discontinue the game."
"NCSOFT will strive for a better game and superior service and anticipates the day that we will meet again."
"We are confident that we will not look back towards today's choice with regret."
I would urge as many as possible to follow up on this, read into it what you like but I can't help but see it as a good sign.
Just want to put these into perspective; and no, I don't trust NCsoft anymore or less than I have after the initial decision to shut down our game.
First: "to provide a better game and service in the future, we have made the tough decision to discontinue the game."
Optimism: This might mean a sequel. Pessimism: No game will be better than this one has been, if it isn't a sequel; not to mention the PS devs are already gone.
Second: "NCSOFT will strive for a better game and superior service and anticipates the day that we will meet again."
Optimism: Again, sequel? Please? Pessimism : Like their 'service' has been great so far, with the silence for two months. :P
Third: "We are confident that we will not look back towards today's choice with regret."
Optimism: I sure hope so, for their sake. Pessimism: Yeah right.
I still have the hopes that there will be a sequel, whether by our team or another. Thoughts?
PS: Good reply Artillerie. :)
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Third: "We are confident that we will not look back towards today's choice with regret."
Optimism: I sure hope so, for their sake. Pessimism: Yeah right.
I still have the hopes that there will be a sequel, whether by our team or another. Thoughts?
Thoughts: If you're putting down a still-healthy and beloved family member, and will not look back upon it with any regret, I question the truth of your love for that family member.
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First: "to provide a better game and service in the future, we have made the tough decision to discontinue the game."
Optimism: This might mean a sequel. Pessimism: No game will be better than this one has been, if it isn't a sequel; not to mention the PS devs are already gone.
"Better game and service" is probably referring to B&S.
And if not... if NCsoft is planning a CoH2 on their own... based on their realignment of company focus, it'll end up being a Korean-based PvP-centric superhero game populated by Hentai kiddies.
And yet again, they have a chance to save face and announce a CoH2. They're not. It isn't anything.
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Thoughts: If you're putting down a still-healthy and beloved family member, and will not look back upon it with any regret, I question the truth of your love for that family member.
"Oh, I'm sorry kids, I know you loved Grandma as much as we did, but she was getting old, so we've had to put her down. Don't ask about the why, just know that she is in a better place....."
Huh... That sounds familiar for some reason....
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Artillerie,
You can read and write in Korean?
Do you have any idea how much we need that?
NCSoftcore can safely ignore all our slogans, funny pictures and complaints so long as they aren't posted in Korean and put into Korean message boards. Can you translate them and find the places to put 'em?
Then they would begin to understand just how angry they have made us.
I'm sorry, i can do neither - i got the korean text from the Save City of Heroes facebook page.
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Just had a look at that FB page and saw their new cover photo:
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-prn1%2F539859_325072697548234_41824329_n.jpg)
You'd think they'd at least have the courtesy to make a Zombie Statesman image to include...at least on December 1st.
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I was in shock when I read their reply. So now they are trying to silence us ? Do they have any idea that this will produce exactly the opposite effect and make us more aggressive in our posts ?
I think NCSoft should just go away now... their very existence is starting to get on my nerves !
(ok: I admit I'm pissed off, which happens only once or twice per century !)
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It's a very good response to them, direct but civil. I only wish it was more appropriate to say something like, "I'm just playing nice until the servers go down, you do not yet know what hurtful is." But maybe later :P Their reply is... typical. The same burning-the-puppy type thing as before.
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I was in shock when I read their reply. So now they are trying to silence us ?
Well, they're trying again, but it didn't work last time, so I don't know why they think it'll work now.
Do they have any idea that this will produce exactly the opposite effect and make us more aggressive in our posts ?
If they were that quick on the uptake, they wouldn't have cancelled the game to begin with.
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Well, they're trying again, but it didn't work last time, so I don't know why they think it'll work now.
They might not think it'll work at all. It's pretty clear that they're all the more threatened by us, given that they've taken the time to blink -er, respond- again. This time they even asked to play nice. Hah.
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Just had a look at that FB page and saw their new cover photo:
You'd think they'd at least have the courtesy to make a Zombie Statesman image to include...at least on December 1st.
Zombie Statesman? Now there's a thought...revenant Statesman shuffling along chasing Taek-jin Kim, moaning "brrraaaiiiinnnssss...", bashing through doors and walls, because he is a super zombie after all ;D
Just while I'm here, pondering zombies and all, I'll add that line in their comment about "to provide a better game and service in the future, we have made the tough decision to discontinue the game." is pure BS - if that was a valid reason, then why keep Guild Wars alive? If your future plan was to make GW2, "a better game and service", why not kill GW if you think killing CoH makes for "a better future"?
Nope, they're running scared - note their use of the word "hurtful" btw. To use that word suggests there's hurt at all. Never mind the hurt they've given us, their loyal family members of course...woe betide if we kick up a fuss for the other siblings to hear when we're being suffocated!
Game ON!
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With NCsoft pulling out of the Superhero MMO market. Either Champions will boom (not counting Marvel it's play as the Hero you like and not make a hero yourself,) Not sure if DC fits either. Or if we get Plan Z out the door as fast as we can we could fill the void.
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With NCsoft pulling out of the Superhero MMO market. Either Champions will boom (not counting Marvel it's play as the Hero you like and not make a hero yourself,) Not sure if DC fits either. Or if we get Plan Z out the door as fast as we can we could fill the void.
Not necessarily rush it out the door, the Delta II's cancellation was announced in 2005. The Falcon 9 didn't launch until 2009, four year gap. SpaceX has a full launch schedule for years, as does Orbital, despite the gap.
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A question from someone too highly involved in antisocial networking to have ever made a Facebook account - what's the "size" of a comment you can make on the NCsoft page?
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Does NCsoft have a public page anywhere for fanart submissions?
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They REALLY have NO IDEA what they've started by using those specific words there, do they?
But we do...
(https://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/NCSoft%20the%20MMOKiller/FamilyKiller_zps0c9f334d.jpg)
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"We are heroes.
This is what we do!
You will hear our voice!
We're not going to stop!
Save our city of heroes!!"
That's a negative and hurtful comment? 8)
Well, its negative in that its not what they want to hear = aka -> cheers for their (wushu+T&A) 'B.S.' game.
And - I'm hesitant to do this but to best describe it - I guess if I were judging, I'd have to call it "Butt-hurtful".
Yes, I went there = my day (so far) has been full 'stuff' that irks me in one way or another.
Actually several "anothers", so - you'll just have to pardon me on this one. :roll:
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They REALLY have NO IDEA what they've started by using those specific words there, do they?
But we do...
(https://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/NCSoft%20the%20MMOKiller/FamilyKiller_zps0c9f334d.jpg)
I have a mental image of the crime show plots where a family member conveniently dies right after someone takes out an insurance policy. Think it's something that can be worked with?
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They REALLY have NO IDEA what they've started by using those specific words there, do they?
But we do...
(https://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/NCSoft%20the%20MMOKiller/FamilyKiller_zps0c9f334d.jpg)
YES!!!
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Hey team, Tom Delfi here. I may not be writing as articulatly or politely as I was in the begining, but we got the sorry bastards shaking. Keep on the rage and lay it thick so they choke on it.
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The God Father picture! With the NCsoft hat.
I think that would work better then the Martians. The "FAMILY" angle. MAH HA HA HA.
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I have to concur on not using the Martians, 'Mars Attacks' wasn't a box office hit when it came out - even with the "ensemble cast" (which was large and famous) it barely broke even - [Budget = $100 million] & [Box office = $101.37 million].
Sorry, I'm just not a fan - (IMHO it was funny once -> twice was pushing it - beyond the third time+ I'd leave the room/vicinity.)
And, It came out in 1996 = There are plenty of people we're trying to reach - who I'm betting won't even begin to recognize those Martians, I think our Memes should be more a teeny bit more recognizable - so folks will more easily recall the source of the pictures {especially, if they're from movies} = unless they're meant to be vague/niche/obscure... :-\
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This is how I feel about this whole thing. I would almost pity NCsoft's position right now, if I had any pity left for them.
(https://i.imgur.com/3mtSW.jpg)
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Been trying to think of a way, that doesn't look utterly lame, to get Hulk to smash Loki/NCsoft for weeks now.
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You'd think they'd at least have the courtesy to make a Zombie Statesman image to include...at least on December 1st.
(https://i.imgur.com/uG4Bn.jpg)
Fixed that for you 8)
btw I've already downloaded a couple of Fredo pictures for the "you're nothing to me" idea...will try to sort that one later ;)
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Been trying to think of a way, that doesn't look utterly lame, to get Hulk to smash Loki/NCsoft for weeks now.
Paste the NCSoft logo over Loki's face as Hulk delivers the punch.
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Been trying to think of a way, that doesn't look utterly lame, to get Hulk to smash Loki/NCsoft for weeks now.
If you're going for the Avengers movie clip, first get the raw image down to a minimal-frame .gif to capture the whole thing. Then, very, very carefully, edit the NCSoft hat onto Loki's head in each frame, being careful to keep it oriented and positioned in the same place on his head the whole time.
Probably want a word-balloon coming from Loki's mouth (still wearing the hat) saying, "You little customers can't hurt me! I'm NCSoft!" just before the beat-down.
Paste the NCSoft logo over Loki's face as Hulk delivers the punch.
No, if you go for a still, just make Loki wear the hat.
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With NCsoft pulling out of the Superhero MMO market. Either Champions will boom (not counting Marvel it's play as the Hero you like and not make a hero yourself,) Not sure if DC fits either. Or if we get Plan Z out the door as fast as we can we could fill the void.
Champions character customization and power selection is too shallow to be very appealing to CoH players. I've been trying it since the day after Black Friday and have been nothing but disappointed.
Add the fact that the game is massively monetized with most of the good costumes and items being cash purchases and you have a real loser of a game.
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(https://i.imgur.com/uG4Bn.jpg)
I can't stop laughing at that image. :D
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This will be the response I intend to send:
Dear NCSOFT representative,
We feel immense gratitude toward your creation and development of CITY OF HEROES. Indeed, it has been quite the experience and we would like to thank you. CITY OF HEROES, as you said, is the world's first and best superhero MMORPG. And as you said, it has received love (not quite unconditional but close) for more than eight years, and it is like a family member to much of the community.
However, to express our displeasure with your heavyhanded decision to sunset the game and poor customer service during said sunsetting, we have made the tough decision to champion our game. It was very hard on all of us to abruptly lose something we love here in the CITY OF HEROES community. We will strive for our game to continue, to ensure the service its community deserves, and anticipate the day when we will either see you restore the game and its studio to the community of players that loves it, or see the game sold to a studio and/or developer that will do it in your stead. While we may look back with regret at the day you decided to close our game, we are confident that one day, CITY OF HEROES will be returned to us.
Lastly, for the users who enjoy other games at NCsoft, we will continue to provide, as is our Constitutional right, our opinion of NCsoft and its handling of this matter. What you see as 'negative and hurtful', we see as honest opinion. What they do with that opinion, be it to heed it, ignore it, or debate it, is entirely up to them.
Thank you very much.
Yours sincerely,
Michelle Travis
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
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....we have made the tough decision to discontinue the game. It was very hard on all of us here at NCSOFT.
And it'll be our genuine pleasure to make it a HELL of a lot harder.
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(https://i.imgur.com/uG4Bn.jpg)
Fixed that for you 8)
So much win! 8)
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I was in shock when I read their reply. So now they are trying to silence us ? Do they have any idea that this will produce exactly the opposite effect and make us more aggressive in our posts ?
I can see two possibilites:
1. They're incompetent
2. Some PR person really hates their job at NCsoft, doesn't like the company, and knows full well he/she is fanning the flames. Also technically they're still doing their job.
Btw, I really like some of the stuff we've been coming up with lately, in the pr front.
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They might not think it'll work at all. It's pretty clear that they're all the more threatened by us, given that they've taken the time to blink -er, respond- again. This time they even asked to play nice. Hah.
In my experience, people that are in panic mode fall into familiar and predicable patterns.
NCSoft's pattern seems to be trying to convince us that shutting down CoH was needed for the benefit of all humanity and to blissfully ignore the impending fall out of a horribly stupid decision to shut CoH down in the manner that they did.
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Maybe they really have City of Heroes 2 in the line and they are thinking that no one will play it when part 1 is still running. But it's a matter of fact that even when there is a part 2 coming from an other developer, then it will be an different game. Maybe just an other genetic mmo like all the others out there, and I don't think that anyone here still wants to play it after this community managment, so I hope that Plan Z will come to live.
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Maybe they really have City of Heroes 2 in the line and they are thinking that no one will play it when part 1 is still running.
Guild Wars.
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even if they did launch a CoH2 from NCSoft, i wouldnt play cause i just dont have much faith in NCSoft anymore since the announcement.
personally im hoping plan z comes into action myself.
that i would play
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In my experience, people that are in panic mode fall into familiar and predicable patterns.
NCSoft's pattern seems to be trying to convince us that shutting down CoH was needed for the benefit of all humanity and to blissfully ignore the impending fall out of a horribly stupid decision to shut CoH down in the manner that they did.
I concur...but I also think that "realignment of company focus" stuff is real: they're de-emphasizing the Western market. Not all at once, and not in a way that would too-greatly compromise their considerable investment in GW2...but all the signs are there. A near-complete retreat into the safe confines of the high-fantasy genre (very nearly the only genre worth bothering with in the Asian market); a heavy push for Blade in Hole, er...Blade and Soul (high fantasy with a distinctly Asian focus in terms of its lore); shutting down a Western studio subsidiary, which is probably a precursor to a reduced presence/staff at NCSoft West...and so forth.
I very much suspect that NCSoft has realized that the Asian and Western MMO markets are profoundly different in terms of customer expectations...and that their idea of being able to develop for one and simply port to the other is a failed model. Sure, they're trying it again with B&S...but to me that smacks of a decision made a while back and simply being carried forth because the only alternative is to not release the game in the West at all. When it (inevitably) tanks over here, I expect it to be the last attempt on NCSoft's part to do this sort of thing.
In the meantime, sunsetting CoH without selling the IP creates a very advantageous (tax-wise) loss of value for them...something to use in their EoY profit/loss accounting. I still maintain that that write-off of loss of value of the IP is more than they could possibly have secured from a potential buyer...which makes the decision a no-brainer for any competent C-level exec. I don't like it...but it's how it works.
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even if they did launch a CoH2 from NCSoft, i wouldnt play cause i just dont have much faith in NCSoft anymore since the announcement.
personally im hoping plan z comes into action myself.
that i would play
I agree here. NCSoft isn't that stupid. Cancelling CoH to make COH 2 would make no sense cause it would piss off damn near every player who played COH 1 and they would loose too much loyal customers. COH 2 may be in production but if they canceled COH for COH 2 then it is a wonder they have stayed in business with plans like that. There is always the option maybe they don't wanna sell the IP cause they already intended to sell it to someone else to make COH 2. Pure speculation though.
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I try other games, but most of them are the same just with an other graphic style. City of Heroes was different. After 6 years of playing there still was new ideas in my head with new characters and powersets I can try. I have this in no other game. I want to chose the size from my nose and my feet, a character I want to play and not have one like thousend others, looking exacly like me in the game. Champions Online have the right direction but... I don't know, it's not my game at all.
I have decided in stop trying to find an other one and playing other offline games I always wanted to play. I look forward what the other part from the Paragon Studios are doing next (I know a part of them are working on Star Trek, but this isn't my universe) and I'm with you with Plan Z, but I don't see an other game so far so long every developer is trying to copy one game over an over again...
...and NC-Soft is on my ignore list right now, what ever they do next...
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Several comments have been made here as to the tone of their response, as though they are responding directly to our OP. If you read the entire FB thread, which I didn't really do so much as skim, you see a pattern of negative response, ranging from disdain to outright mean-spirited. There was more than one in Korean, as well. I don't think the response was directly to us. Do I think the OP, here, triggered the response? Perhaps. Did they blink? Oh, hell yes, so it's still a win. I just felt their tone and wording needed some context.
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I agree here. NCSoft isn't that stupid. Cancelling CoH to make COH 2 would make no sense cause it would piss off damn near every player who played COH 1 and they would loose too much loyal customers. COH 2 may be in production but if they canceled COH for COH 2 then it is a wonder they have stayed in business with plans like that. There is always the option maybe they don't wanna sell the IP cause they already intended to sell it to someone else to make COH 2. Pure speculation though.
Well now there's an interesting thought. Though that would still royally tick off the original fanbase, if they cut Paragon's funding for a CoH 2, just to give it to another developer.
Not that other companies haven't been able to do that and get away with it, such as Lucas Ltd. Both with the SWG/SWTOR debacle regarding developer politics, AND destroying the film franchise for the original fans.
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Well now there's an interesting thought. Though that would still royally tick off the original fanbase, if they cut Paragon's funding for a CoH 2, just to give it to another developer.
Not that other companies haven't been able to do that and get away with it, such as Lucas Ltd. Both with the SWG/SWTOR debacle regarding developer politics, AND destroying the film franchise for the original fans.
But HAS Lucasarts et al. actually gotten away with it though? Really? The move to F2P for SWTOR after less than a year (announced in less than 6 months after release!) and the general contempt and disdain among fans for George Lucas and his continuous efforts to "tweak" the original trilogy (Han shot FIRST, DAMNIT!) and for the Prequels (Jar Jar!) says to me that Lucas Ltd. has actually damaged their IP pretty badly over the last few years. True - nothing there is a fatal blow to sales. But Star Wars is no longer quite the unstoppable juggernaut it once was. Many fans have given up and chosen to move on. They may have "gotten away with" shutting down Star Wars Galaxies, but like with City of Heroes, that's left a sizable cadre of fans with a very bitter and jaundiced view of Lucasarts*, just as we have now with NCSoft.
And that's not even mentioning the effect that the Mass Effect 3 debacle had on Bioware and EA.
Factor all of that in, and I think in the long run, even if they "got away with it" it is, at best, a Pyrrhic victory.
(* I still see many fans mistakenly attribute the closure of SWG to Sony Online Entertainment when it was actually Lucasarts unwillingness to renew the license in favor of SWTOR that forced the closure. In fact, other than SWG, SOE's track record is actually one of the absolute BEST for supporting older MMOs. The original Everquest was theirs and it's STILL GOING. Albeit at reduced capacity on fewer servers. If they follow the same pattern over the next 10 years it's conceivable that DCUO may outlast Champions Online!)
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In the meantime, sunsetting CoH without selling the IP creates a very advantageous (tax-wise) loss of value for them...something to use in their EoY profit/loss accounting. I still maintain that that write-off of loss of value of the IP is more than they could possibly have secured from a potential buyer...which makes the decision a no-brainer for any competent C-level exec. I don't like it...but it's how it works.
This.
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So, more or less, insurance fraud then.
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In the meantime, sunsetting CoH without selling the IP creates a very advantageous (tax-wise) loss of value for them...something to use in their EoY profit/loss accounting. I still maintain that that write-off of loss of value of the IP is more than they could possibly have secured from a potential buyer...which makes the decision a no-brainer for any competent C-level exec. I don't like it...but it's how it works.
I'm not convinced. Just because we know how US (and Canadian) companies work in terms of tax write-offs, it does not follow that this is how Korean corporate law is written. We don't even know if there is such a thing as a tax-write-off in Korean corporate law. Is there anyone here who knows how Korean corporate and tax law works? Don't ever assume that because something is true in the US corporate structure, it is true universally.
However there was a very interesting set of implications in one of Ammon's posts and one of Codewalker's (IIRC).
Ammon suggested that for the purposes of "future use," NCSoft is valuing their dead IPs at about 100 million dollars each--which would make the dead-and-dying 6 IPs "worth" (on paper) about 600 million dollars.
But Codewalker (IIRC) dug up a corporate (tax?) audit that stated NCSoft valued ALL of their IPS, alive AND dead, at a mere 2 million total.
Is it possible that NCSoft is playing some kind of shell game with their stockholders? Claiming assets in terms of held IPs in excess of a billion dollars, when in fact they are actually worth a tiny fraction of that?
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I'm not convinced. Just because we know how US (and Canadian) companies work in terms of tax write-offs, it does not follow that this is how Korean corporate law is written. We don't even know if there is such a thing as a tax-write-off in Korean corporate law. Is there anyone here who knows how Korean corporate and tax law works? Don't ever assume that because something is true in the US corporate structure, it is true universally.
However there was a very interesting set of implications in one of Ammon's posts and one of Codewalker's (IIRC).
Ammon suggested that for the purposes of "future use," NCSoft is valuing their dead IPs at about 100 million dollars each--which would make the dead-and-dying 6 IPs "worth" (on paper) about 600 million dollars.
But Codewalker (IIRC) dug up a corporate (tax?) audit that stated NCSoft valued ALL of their IPS, alive AND dead, at a mere 2 million total.
Is it possible that NCSoft is playing some kind of shell game with their stockholders? Claiming assets in terms of held IPs in excess of a billion dollars, when in fact they are actually worth a tiny fraction of that?
I have no words for describing just how illegal that is in most of the world...
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So, more or less, insurance fraud then.
Tax fraud, I think, but yup. That's exactly what it is. Which is why they won't be able to sell the IP after they write it off, because they will never get the ridiculous price they will write it off for. If they sell the IP for what it is actually worth afterwards (likely way less than how they will value it for the write off), the fraud will be obvious. That's why the PR cost has to be huge right now, before they make that write off, so they have time to reconsider if it is really a cost effective decision.
NCSoft has a history of doing this. This is why they have closed so many games. Every time they have a bad quarter, they close a game and write off the IP for more than it is worth to cover their losses. It makes them still look profitable on paper. I think that's why they chose Paragon to close instead of Aion or GW. Paragon had TWO games, two IPs, in the works and was a little more profitable, so they can overvalue it all for a lot more, and cover their HUGE losses this quarter better.
NCSoft is the worst example of a sleazy, dishonest corporation. It's our job to let other gamers know that this is how they function and that no game is safe from them. It's going to be really hard to drum up enough negative PR in time, I think, but this blink today is a big sign in our favor. And at the very least I think everyone feels that if we can't save the game, we still want to watch NCSoft go down in flames for their terrible business practices, and I think we will at the very least have that.
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Is it possible that NCSoft is playing some kind of shell game with their stockholders? Claiming assets in terms of held IPs in excess of a billion dollars, when in fact they are actually worth a tiny fraction of that?
That could be it, too. Whatever they are doing, it's obvious that they are trying to look more profitable than they actually are, and are likely committing fraud.
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They don't even have to have a tax write-off in order to claim 100 million in assets held for the IP of a dead game.
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They don't even have to have a tax write-off in order to claim 100 million in assets held for the IP of a dead game.
Ugh. That's awful. They are just awful. At least we seem to be making them hurt. Let's keep doing so.
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Tax fraud, I think, but yup. That's exactly what it is. Which is why they won't be able to sell the IP after they write it off, because they will never get the ridiculous price they will write it off for. If they sell the IP for what it is actually worth afterwards (likely way less than how they will value it for the write off), the fraud will be obvious. That's why the PR cost has to be huge right now, before they make that write off, so they have time to reconsider if it is really a cost effective decision.
Okay... if this is fraud of some kind, can we get NCSoft's investors to A). become aware of it and B). pursue litigation? I mean, sure, identifying it as fraud is one thing, that's all well and good, but it does us no good unless we can leverage in some way against NCSoft.
Personally, I'd love to see NCsoft burn in class-action litigation hell for this kind of stuff. However, I'd settle for exposing their little writeoff shenanigans and using it as leverage to force them back to the table to renegotiate CoH's closure.
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Okay... if this is fraud of some kind, can we get NCSoft's investors to A). become aware of it and B). pursue litigation? I mean, sure, identifying it as fraud is one thing, that's all well and good, but it does us no good unless we can leverage in some way against NCSoft.
I don't think we can actually come out and SAY that it's fraud, that would open us up for libel suits and what not. What we can do is point out the closures coinciding with bad quarters and make it obvious enough for people to connect their own dots. I've been wanting to do a blog post about this, but I've had trouble actually finding the time to do the research (to be sure I'm actually correct) and write it with work and college.
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Okay... if this is fraud of some kind, can we get NCSoft's investors to A). become aware of it and B). pursue litigation? I mean, sure, identifying it as fraud is one thing, that's all well and good, but it does us no good unless we can leverage in some way against NCSoft.
BE VERY CAREFUL about actually claiming fraud. That can get you sued.
You can say things like "is it possible"...? You can lay out "one knowledgable poster suggests that NCSoft might be claiming defunct IPs as 100 million dollar assets" and "a company audit discovered by another source says NCSoft actually values ALL its IPs at 2 million dollars in total" and maybe even add "this begs the question as to why NCSoft refused a buyout of CoH from Valve at more than the total for all IPs stated in the audit" and just let the reader connect the dots.
But you really really really really need to be very careful about using the word fraud in a public story. Here on a private board, it's just speculation. Out on the public front page of, say, CCCP, it becomes something I can lose my house over.
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... you really really really really need to be very careful about using the word fraud in a public story. Here on a private board, it's just speculation. Out on the public front page of, say, CCCP, it becomes something I can lose my house over.
So I'm aware. Hence the "if" in my statement. Still, I think we'd be doing NCsoft's investors a disservice if we didn't at least hint that they should do a little of their own digging into their investee's business practices, just for the sake of protecting their investments.
Honestly, that should be the first action and standard practice of any potential stockholder looking to make a major investment in a business.
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It's not fraud, it is massaging the tax laws to their benefit and utilizing loopholes and subtext. Thousands of companies, big and small, do it all over the US (which is where it would apply since City/Paragon was American). It's terrible, and it should be criminal, but it isn't.
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It's not fraud, it is massaging the tax laws to their benefit and utilizing loopholes and subtext. Thousands of companies, big and small, do it all over the US (which is where it would apply since City/Paragon was American). It's terrible, and it should be criminal, but it isn't.
Yea didnt companies like GE and a few make record profits last year or year before but ended up not paying a cent in taxes on their billions they raked in due to loopholes?
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(which is where it would apply since City/Paragon was American).
Not true, and I have to keep emphasizing this. City/Paragon was not American. The existence of NCSoft West no more makes the Parent company of NCSoft American than the Toyota plant in Georgia makes the parent company of Toyota American.
NCSoft is Korean and operates under Korean corporate law. City/Paragon was wholly owned by NCSoft, just as the Toyota plant in Georgia is wholly owned by Toyota.
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NCsoft has to pay American taxes for all of their games and companies in the US. Then they also pay whatever taxes there needs to be for the Korean side of things.
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Yea didnt companies like GE and a few make record profits last year or year before but ended up not paying a cent in taxes on their billions they raked in due to loopholes?
This is correct. There are all kinds of slimy things you can do with your excess money to make it not affect your taxes.
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So even if they are doing is or not fruad or something of the likes by US laws, is it fraud according to Korean Corporate law, especially if the tax breaks are less generous or dont even exist?
But since they pay taxes here, does that mean that they could get the tax write off for the IP here too?
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So even if they are doing is or not fruad or something of the likes by US laws, is it fraud according to Korean Corporate law, especially if the tax breaks are less generous or dont even exist?
But since they pay taxes here, does that mean that they could get the tax write off for the IP here too?
]
Unknown.
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What NCsoft does with their American money under American tax laws doesn't matter to Korean tax law, because it's only AFTER all the American tax stuff happens that it funnels over to the Korean side of things.
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Per an email I'd gotten from Brian Clayton:
The short answer is that NC Interactive (a legal subsidiary of NCsoft) owns City of Heroes (and Paragon Studios for that matter).
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
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We also still want to keep things Honorable and respectful.
As Mahatma Gandhi said...
"Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." ~
Mahatma Gandhi
Keep this in mind as you post. Shame them! Show them more Honor then they gave us and make them doubt their own honor. Respect them and bruise their pride. If we go and get to aggressive they can brush is off as "Crazy Westerners". Remember too a whisper is often heard louder then screams.
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Okay...
I'm not Olantern, and International Tax Law is not my domain...
however...
If a foreign entity, person or corporation, has business that is performed in the US where they earn money from US holdings, then they have to file US income taxes. Same goes for the opposite... if, for instance, an American is in Korea performing a job for their company, then they have to file taxes for both countries, especially if they earn money for both. It can get EXTREMELY confusing. This is where the Form 1040NR (Non-Resident Alien) and other international tax forms come into play.
What Korean tax law is, I have no idea. I'm not even going to pretend to know.
((deletes a lot of stuff due to not wanting to get into trouble... waves at the nice TIGTA people))
I cannot go into a lot because I really like my job. One of the things I'd do, first, is see what other companies value THEIR IPs at, and go from there. If NCSoft is using an Industry Standard amount for valuation, then there's nothing to get all blustery about.
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I can't stop laughing at that image. :D
same, thats frickin hilarious lol
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We also still want to keep things Honorable and respectful.
As Mahatma Gandhi said...
"Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." ~
Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sqmq_-6cwk
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I have a theory about why NCSoft is posting all these replies and press releases.
Because it's working in Korea, that's why.
I think that's all that's important to NCSoft right now. They want to portray us as American bullies who have been harassing their poor hometown company. They're telling their loyal friends and followers in Korea: See? This is why we shut down CoH, it's keeping our Korean company safe and secure from this kind of typical American behavior.
And since they're pulling out of the U.S. market and concentrating on new Korean games, they can get away with it.
Just food for thought.
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And since they're pulling out of the U.S. market and concentrating on new Korean games, they can get away with it.
Maybe if CoH were indeed their FINAL U.S. game, I could see that. They still risk losing a lot more by still trying to bring B&S here. Why not just cut their losses now and abandon that idea as well?
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And since they're pulling out of the U.S. market and concentrating on new Korean games, ...
But they're not.
Boobs & Shame, for one. WildStar for another. Aion and Lineage2 are still getting huge pushes on the NA side, too.
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I'm not convinced. Just because we know how US (and Canadian) companies work in terms of tax write-offs, it does not follow that this is how Korean corporate law is written. We don't even know if there is such a thing as a tax-write-off in Korean corporate law. Is there anyone here who knows how Korean corporate and tax law works? Don't ever assume that because something is true in the US corporate structure, it is true universally.
Oh, I'm not. I had a bit of a look see (http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/apcity/unpan014586.pdf (http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/apcity/unpan014586.pdf), among several others) into Korean corporate tax codes and tax law (albeit an admittedly high-level overview intended for non-lawyers), and at least that cursory impression leads me to believe that their system is largely similar to our own in these areas. Their loss relief and capital gain/loss rules are, if anything, more favorable to corporate interests than our own (hard to believe, innit?). Depreciation of assets is definitely deductible, although the section I looked at closely (Article 23) refers largely to physical assets, not intellectual property...but also fails to make that differentiation explicitly.
I may very well be mistaken about all this (it would take that genuine expert to provide us with anything definitive...and that ain't me), but my impression is that NCSoft have indeed valued the IP and other Paragon Studios assets as high as they can get away with in order to generate an offset.
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I hope this speculation is wrong. If it's accurate, and NC is making more money off losing CoH than they possibly could with a successful game in 5 frigging years, then there's nothing we're going to do that will cause enough damage, UNLESS it leads to a federal investigation. And even then, if NC was caught red-handed, it would probably just toss everything into a legal meat-grinder, and NOTHING viable of NCs IP's would ever become available for another company to breathe new life into.
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Per an email I'd gotten from Brian Clayton:
The short answer is that NC Interactive (a legal subsidiary of NCsoft) owns City of Heroes (and Paragon Studios for that matter).
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Ok, so whatever the loss, NC Interactive is going to incur it and this will fall under United States corporate laws since (from two (http://www.neoseeker.com/Companies/profiles/nc_interactive/) sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft)) NC Interactive (aliases: NC West/NC North America, maybe NCNC) is the (an?) american subsidiary of NC Soft (the Korean company)
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I hope this speculation is wrong. If it's accurate, and NC is making more money off losing CoH than they possibly could with a successful game in 5 frigging years, then there's nothing we're going to do that will cause enough damage, UNLESS it leads to a federal investigation. And even then, if NC was caught red-handed, it would probably just toss everything into a legal meat-grinder, and NOTHING viable of NCs IP's would ever become available for another company to breathe new life into.
Don't lose hope. Ammon quoted a price of $100 million as the valuation. But he also quoted a pricetag of $100 million to do a successful reputation repair with stockholders if we can mount a negative publicity campaign that reaches the stockholders. HandK will be watching for that--that is part of their job--and believe me, when they start reaching numbers in the millions, and mounting, for a reputation repair campaign, I suspect we won't have to wait for it to reach the magic $100 million number before they come crying. It is much, much more expensive to repair a business reputation than it is to establish it.
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Agreed, and one thing to remember is that the owning the IP itself, does *not* give you access to stuff created on it. And trying to get your hands on *that* can also increase the price by quite a bit.
Side note: Have a look at the mess that Harebrained Schemes LLC have had to go through for the *creator* of Shadowrun to make another game based on that IP. And this is just for a *new* game based on it. I am sure that just gets messier for them to re-release the original games on top of that.
Christ, I am not sure who even *owns* the rights to that game either... the original developer/publisher has gone through several name change/ownerships, and the other publisher is now defunct, with *some* of their titles now owned by different companies.
I can actually speak to this, as I'm an involved party.
Originally there was FASA producing BattleTech, Shadowrun, etc.
Then Jordan Weisman stepped aside to do Virtual World (Red Planet racing game and VWE BattleTech), which eventually became FASA Interactive.
Microsoft bought up FASA Interactive and took full control of the rights to all FASA properties in an electronic medium. In short, the guy who owns Virtual World today has a license for "Site-based Entertainment" rather than a license to produce video games.
Eventually FASA closed their doors, a purely monetary/bookkeeping decision by the owner and became a license holder.
The licenses for BattleTech and Shadowrun (at least), were bought by WizKids, another company founded by Jordan Weisman.
The BattleTech and Shadowrun games were licensed to FanPro. An outfit that'd been handling german translations of the various games and novels for years. They formed FanPro USA and the person in charge was also the lead dev for Shadowrun. WizKids also moved forward bringing BattleTech to their click-base "Mage Knight" game system as MechWarrior: Dark Age. Rights to any future BattleTech novels with ROC transitioned into MechWarrior: Dark Age novels.
During this time, InMediaRes productions started up as a way to bring back BattleTech fiction. We were rebuffed several times by FanPro, so we went over their heads and straight to WizKids. Most of the people involved in IMR were also the people developing the BattleTech game at the time, as well as working with/for WizKids to keep all the various periods of the BattleTech universe in alignment.
Fast forward several years. FanPro made the decision to drop their licenses back to WizKids. IMR stepped up and formed the Catalyst Game Labs imprint and picked up BattleTech and Shadowrun. It's still the same people doing the development from FASA through CGL for BattleTech. Just different management. With Shadowrun, the lead dev there decided to go off and do his own thing with his own game, called Eclipse Phase.
During this time, WizKids was bought out by Topps (the baseball card guys). So, at this point CGL basically has to deal with a rep from Topps. They're generally fairly understanding about new products in ancillary markets, at least once they're educated as to the niche these products occupy. And we're pretty much left alone to run our license the way we want to.
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Can someone explain something to me? This reference to making money on a write-off thing is bugging me, in particular, the concept that it blocks any sale of the IP.
First, I'm assuming U.S. Corporate Tax Law.
In my understanding, typically, a company can only write off an asset for tax purposes when it is "disposed" of. This is something the company largely gets to determine as to when it happens, yes, but it does have to back that up if their friendly neighborhood IRS agents come knocking (been there, done that). So, shutting down the game and/or selling it both would/should count as disposal.
Let's say they have $100 million of accumulated R&D and other "goodwill" associated with CoH that they are looking to write off. (This is a number picked out of a hat, btw, and has no known relevance to whatever the actual figure might be. Please do not go around quoting "SOMEONE SAID CoH WAS WORTH $100 MILLION ON NCSOFT'S BOOKS". You will be (probably) VERY wrong.)
Let's also assume they have profits from another product in the U.S. market (cough GW2 cough) they are looking to write this loss off against in the current FY, and/or are looking to carry back the loss to previous years. Let's use a relatively conservative think tank's effective federal/state tax rate (CATO Institute, do your own googling) value of 37.2% as a basis, and bump it to 40% for good measure by assuming NCSoft is as incompetent at managing it's U.S. financials as it is as managing it's U.S. service offerings (and to make the math that much simpler). Note that this figure includes such elements as state income taxes, sales taxes, etc.
That would indicate a tax savings of $40 million on the $100 million write-off.
Typically, when you sell an asset, you still get to write off any difference between the sales price and the "value" of that IP on your books. So let's assume they instead sold the IP for $10 million.
They now have the $10 million from the sale, plus $36 million from the remaining $90 million ($100 million value-$10 million payment received) write-off. A total of $46 million.
Last time I checked, 46 was greater than 40.
What am I missing here? I admit this is a drastically simplified model, ignoring, for example, repatriation of assets to South Korea and the possible currency conversion and taxation effects of that, but I'm still having trouble coming up with any scenario where completely destroying an asset is worth more than selling it, even at fire sale prices. Are there special limits on R&D/goodwill write offs in a sale/transfer situation that I'm not aware of? If someone could just PM with an IRS regs section number to review in relation to this, I'd appreciate it.
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But they're not.
Boobs & Shame, for one. WildStar for another. Aion and Lineage2 are still getting huge pushes on the NA side, too.
It's still a Korean game though, and they're being released in Korea first and managed from there.
Maybe it's a national pride thing then, that CoH has been embarassing them for years because it's a successful title that's made/maintained outside Korea.
I'm looking for other reasons why NCSoft might be doing this, because a tax writeoff makes no sense. You can only take that once, and you can't just make up any amount you want. Tax writeoffs are heavily regulated and watched closely by tax authorities for a reason.
It really could be a national pride thing. Maybe NCSoft has been mocked by local gamers for catering to American gaming more than Koreans for years, and they want to change their image in Korea. So they're trying to push everyone to Korean made games, and at the same time show off their power by dictating terms to Americans (no, you can't have your game no matter what!). Pretty much what any dictator does when they want to flex some muscle.
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Embarrassment doesn't make sense. Why buy something you will be embarrassed if it pays you back?
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Embarrassment doesn't make sense. Why buy something you will be embarrassed if it pays you back?
See above, I edited. :)
In some countries your company's reputation is everything. And in some of those, that reputation better be tough and ruthless or you become a laughingstock. American companies used to be like that around the industrial revolution time, but our culture is different now. Maybe Korean culture is still more like that, and NCSoft wants to attract investors and customers by proving how aggressive and vicious they can be.
We're going to kill off a healthy game, make those spoiled Americans cry, make sure they cry some more, and we're going to mock them while we're at it, too! Sounds pretty aggressive and vicious, doesn't it? Maybe they believe that's a positive image for them in Korea. Maybe even more so if they've been accused of being too soft and catering to Americans more than Koreans, in the past.
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Adding: I'm just guessing here too, but it's the only thing that makes logical sense for why they would not only refuse a buyout of CoH, but make crazy demands like even asking to buy it is insulting to them. It could simply be that they're trying to look vicious, and if they give in and sell CoH reasonably it makes them look weak and bending to American demands again.
Or shorter version: That they believe their boost to reputation back home is worth losing money on the shutdown and refusing a sale.
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Well I would say -
NCSoft - We would kindly and thoughtfully recommend buyers for any assets you have here in North America. You could sell off NCWest or spin them off into their own independent company. Why - you could even structure it as a loss for the tax write-off, since that seems to be a move you like to do.
Then, you no longer have to worry so much about Arenanet and Carbine being troublesome Western appendages that you don't know what to do with. They could function under the re-branded and re-organized NCWest and Paragon Studios could be reformed and City of Heroes could keep running as well, which would save you a lot of negative publicity.
If you - NCSoft - value your Western market so little, and are wanting to be rid of it and focus on Korean games and customers, we would be more than willing to assist you in your endeavor to be a provincial company that only does business in Korea to Koreans and no one else.
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Atlantea:
If you can rephrase that to be more supportive rather than obviously derisive (and believe me, I understand your derision), that could be something worth sending to NCSoft via every vector we have. If that is, truly, a model they're hoping to follow, helping them expedite it in a way that might fit their business plans at an accelerated pace - while avoiding an adversarial tone - might have more than a Villain's chance in Atlas Park of working.
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Atlantea:
If you can rephrase that to be more supportive rather than obviously derisive (and believe me, I understand your derision), that could be something worth sending to NCSoft via every vector we have. If that is, truly, a model they're hoping to follow, helping them expedite it in a way that might fit their business plans at an accelerated pace - while avoiding an adversarial tone - might have more than a Villain's chance in Atlas Park of working.
I'm sorry. I'm a little bitter these days and enjoying the schadenfreude as I watch their stock continue to tumble is one of the few things that bring me anything close to enjoyment. Frankly the above is as polite as it's going to get from me.
But if you want to run with the idea, be my guest.
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Don't lose hope. Ammon quoted a price of $100 million as the valuation. But he also quoted a pricetag of $100 million to do a successful reputation repair with stockholders if we can mount a negative publicity campaign that reaches the stockholders. HandK will be watching for that--that is part of their job--and believe me, when they start reaching numbers in the millions, and mounting, for a reputation repair campaign, I suspect we won't have to wait for it to reach the magic $100 million number before they come crying. It is much, much more expensive to repair a business reputation than it is to establish it.
Its better than that, VV, because the $100 million PR repair figure I mentioned was just for the US alone, and needs to have amounts added for other countries. Branding campaigns are very expensive. The costs of fixing negative PR can run into many hundreds of millions very quickly indeed when you have to run those campaigns throughout all of the Americas, Canada, and Europe too.
However, the flip-side of that is that human nature can take a while to admit mistakes. In a worst case scenario we may indeed have to show them that they will spend a lot more than the value of the company before they force themselves to admit that its the smarter choice to change their minds. That doesn't bother me too much, though, as we know we can do exactly that.
I think to an extent we need to stop speculating on exactly how and why NCsoft have decided they make more money from closing CoH than selling it. Its enough to simply know that obviously they do, and that no offers made so far have come close to making them reevaluate their business decision to close CoH and Paragon.
Heck, maybe the whole thing *is* to remove Paragon Studios from the picture so they can use a cheaper or asian firm to make CoH2, or because some property resided in the subsiduary and this was all about transferring that property to the parent company without having to buy it and publically declare its value. We can't know, we can just know that so far no offer has come close to tempting them, meaning that their own plan seems to them to be the more profitable.
The end result is the same regardless. They are predictable because for them, this is just business. Its all about the money, either directly, or in share values. We can lead them by the nose by affecting the money. We have that power. And we are unbeatable, because while they can throw money around they only do so in order to make more. We act in passion, and don't care what this costs. All that matters to us is whether or not we can do it, which we can. :)
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I'm sorry. I'm a little bitter these days and enjoying the schadenfreude as I watch their stock continue to tumble is one of the few things that bring me anything close to enjoyment. Frankly the above is as polite as it's going to get from me.
But if you want to run with the idea, be my guest.
Hm. I just might! Thanks! (It is a good core concept.)
Going to quote you and edit in-quote, so nobody assume I'm direct-attributing here. It's just easiest for me this way:Dear NCSoft,
We, the community of the City of Heroes, would be delighted to kindly and thoughtfully recommend buyers for any assets you have here in North America. If it is, indeed, your intention to slowly divest yourself of non-Asian holdings in a calculated business re-alignment, we would like to aid you in expediting and smoothing this process to the benefit of all involved. You could sell off NCWest or spin them off into their own independent company, and we would be happy to aid you in structuring this sale however most benefits your new company position.
This will remove the need to focus on Arenanet and Carbine in the West, which may also not fit your company alignment for much longer, and return profit while cutting losses and perhaps allowing them longer life under Western management whose company visions include that market. They could function under the re-branded and re-organized NCWest and Paragon Studios could be reformed and City of Heroes could keep running as well, which would result in a net positive publicity gain. The good reputation of NCSoft West, left to focus on its own company goals in the Western market, will reflect admirably upon NCSoft while NCSoft will have no financial obligations to the overseas company.
Since your realigned focus no longer includes City of Heroes and its siblings in Western genre, we would be more than willing to assist you in your endeavor to consolidate your resources and continue to bring the world excellent games with a strong focus on their target audiences.
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Heck, maybe the whole thing *is* to remove Paragon Studios from the picture so they can use a cheaper or asian firm to make CoH2, or because some property resided in the subsiduary and this was all about transferring that property to the parent company without having to buy it and publically declare its value.
Interesting notion...could be they want to work with Nexon on a new product, but one that's unashamedly NOT a PC-based MMO - that would explain why they thought removing Paragon Studios AND the PC-playerbase was logical. Guild Wars 2 after all was the same platform as Guild Wars, so killing the original Guild Wars would've been damaging. But if they don't care about a PC future for the CoH franchise, and are totally focused on smartphones...then yes, there is a sort of twisted logic in killing the past for the sake of the future.
Which would also mean negative PR surrounding their handling of CoH would cause even more harm to that future than we'd thought...
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Which would also mean negative PR surrounding their handling of CoH would cause even more harm to that future than we'd thought...
A smartphone replacement would be an even bigger insult than the shutdown.
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A smartphone replacement would be an even bigger insult than the shutdown.
And all the more reason for Plan Z to put out its costume editor early...as a web and phone application. "Ours will connect to a real game!"
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And all the more reason for Plan Z to put out its costume editor early...as a web and phone application. "Ours will connect to a real game!"
Already beginning the framework.
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And *that* is just for the non electronic version of the game....
Yeah. I could probably break down the way the electronic licenses have run, but it's byzantine with a capital "BYZANTINE!!!" at best.
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See above, I edited. :)
In some countries your company's reputation is everything. And in some of those, that reputation better be tough and ruthless or you become a laughingstock. American companies used to be like that around the industrial revolution time, but our culture is different now. Maybe Korean culture is still more like that, and NCSoft wants to attract investors and customers by proving how aggressive and vicious they can be.
We're going to kill off a healthy game, make those spoiled Americans cry, make sure they cry some more, and we're going to mock them while we're at it, too! Sounds pretty aggressive and vicious, doesn't it? Maybe they believe that's a positive image for them in Korea. Maybe even more so if they've been accused of being too soft and catering to Americans more than Koreans, in the past.
As reasonable as this is, and I don't disagree with it, it would hold more water if the stock were rising instead of falling, whatever the cause.
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/em applause
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I thought their stock prices was already falling prior to the end of the game announcement? Although it seems the drop started to pick up speed afterwards, maybe karma, maybe just a coincidence or they forseen this and for some odd strange reason thought killing off a profit thing would help.
Know what's funny, I was going to buy stock in that company and had the money tranfered to the account that I use for that purpose on Aug. 29th. It was suppose to take only one day and was suppose to arrive on Aug 30th, but something happened and it got delayed until Sept 3rd. Man, things really happen for a reason because if everything happened as scheduled, I would have lost a lot and be in the red with that at the moment.
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killing off a profit
Woah woah woah....
I don't think we need to go so drastic as to killing me off.....
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I thought their stock prices was already falling prior to the end of the game announcement? Although it seems the drop started to pick up speed afterwards, maybe karma, maybe just a coincidence or they foreseen this and for some odd strange reason thought killing off a profit thing would help.
Know what's funny, I was going to buy stock in that company and had the money transferred to the account that I use for that purpose on Aug. 29th. It was suppose to take only one day and was suppose to arrive on Aug 30th, but something happened and it got delayed until Sept 3rd. Man, things really happen for a reason because if everything happened as scheduled, I would have lost a lot and be in the red with that at the moment.
My goodness, JaguarX, you are the PERFECT spokesperson to the stockholders, or would-be stockholders. "This is why I am so very pleased I did NOT buy NCSoft Stock! They are committing corporate suicide!"
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Woah woah woah....
I don't think we need to go so drastic as to killing me off.....
O.O
whoa didnt realize there was a dude actually named Profit here. lmao! sup man, no, no one is killing you off here.
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O.O
whoa didnt realize there was a dude actually named Profit here. lmao! sup man, no, no one is killing you off here.
*Sighs and put away knife and hockey mask.* If you say so... but if a human sacrifice was needed would you be willing Profit?
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*Sighs and put away knife and hockey mask.* If you say so... but if a human sacrifice was needed would you be willing Profit?
Well, now we know who to tell the cops had a Profit motive...
But don't worry; I'll reanimate you.
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I re-considered part of my post and edited it. But here's the part I edited out. Just in case you think I should post it as a separate replay now or later. Perhaps this should be posted on December 1st.
I think that you may be missing a bet by not pointing out -- preferably in Korean -- that the reaction of the CoH playerbase to NCSoft's sudden and heavy-handed announcement of the closure, followed by a complete stonewalling of inquiries, demonstrated very clearly that the NCSoft management is completely incapable of understanding the mindset of the Western gamer, a proof that was only repeated with the content-free platitudes they have released. If NCSoft intends to be a top-flight gaming company worldwide, they are going to have to understand the mindset of gamers from other cultures, so that they can connect with the players in those cultures. But NCSoft has proved that they don't care about other cultures, that their position is that the Korean MMOs are the ideal type of game, and that all they have to do is shove game after game down our throats, and we'll eventually realize the inherent superiority of Korean games and clamor to play them.
I don't think we can actually come out and SAY that it's fraud, that would open us up for libel suits and what not. What we can do is point out the closures coinciding with bad quarters and make it obvious enough for people to connect their own dots. I've been wanting to do a blog post about this, but I've had trouble actually finding the time to do the research (to be sure I'm actually correct) and write it with work and college.
If you intend to bring these facts to light, do it in the context of asking for more information. Present the documentation showing NCSoft's valuation of all their IPs for tax purposes, and then the documentation of the value that NCSoft is claiming as a loss from shuttering just City of Heroes, and respectfully request to be enlightened regarding the aspects of corporate tax law and financial regulations that allows NCSoft to claim a loss from the closure of one game that is many times the value they claim for all their games, because from our Western viewpoint that looks like misrepresentation on one end or the other, but that NCSoft wouldn't be deliberately conducting such misrepresentation, so there must be something that we are missing, and wish to be enlightened.
Maybe it's a national pride thing then, that CoH has been embarassing them for years because it's a successful title that's made/maintained outside Korea.
It's just a theory, but I think CoH was squashed, not just because it's a successful title that's produced outside Korea, but because it's a successful title that is almost the complete antithesis of the Korean-style grindfest MMOs that they keep throwing at the Western market. These games generate an initial rush of subscribers attracted by the 'New Shiny', then start to hemorrhage players as they learn how horrid the grind is. City of Heroes, by bumbling along with even moderate success, is glaring proof that NCSoft doesn't understand the Western gaming market -- that they can't 'read' their potential customers to deliver an MMO that they'll rush to play and play for years (as we have CoH). With CoH gone, NCSoft can handwave their MMO flops in the Western market as their just not having found the right subject for an MMO -- that everyone loves the fundamentally-superior Korean-style grindfest MMO, and if they just get the right content it will be an instant success and displace WoW as the premiere MMO.
We're the inconvenient counterexample that proves they don't understand the Western market, so we have to go.
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This might be the reason that I'm not some big CEO.
I would have valued it for sale probably 1-2 years worth of the profits it was raking in at the time and the discount price would be off the calcuation of the steady decrease and if it continued in that manner up to two years.
But all of this is assuming that there is not a sliver of a chance that I may have future plans for it or even part of the IP, like a chracters and storyline making an appearance in another game.
But I have another question though. Do anyone know the ture amount that have een offered to them? I asked this because sometimes it's not the actual value of what being sold it's also how willingly is the company want to let it go and also how much was actually offered. I was thinking when I was selling the 300 that I had. I was asking for ten thousand, kbb had it for 14,000, he offered 9,000 cash and I took with no hesitation. Now I also been offered 3,000 for it, 5,000 grand for it and low ball (in my eyes) offer. Of course these people walked away talking about how I must not really wanted to sell the car. And if the car didnt sell or the guy didnt offer the 9,00 cash then the car would have not been sold and I would say that I exhausted all options in this and probably kept the car and still drive it until I'm ready to put it on the market again even though I was truely tryignto sell. On the other hand, the MBZ which was kbb less than 300 and some people even offered more than what I got for the 300 but I turned it down because I was not selling at all. SOme offers I listened to but even as I listened I knew good and well unless they said some price and had the money there that was nuts to offer, I was turning it down. Thus, in that case, all options was also explored except there was only one option, I'm not selling unless you offer me some crazy amount. I notice that NCSOft never give a reason to what happened so they may be telling the full truth but hiding the reason of that outcome. But most of us probably have an idea of what really went one by putting the pieces together to get some sort of picture. It may not be 100% acc. but I think the just of the matter can be seen.
So the question is did they really want to sell that IP or just was entertaining offers? One way to determine is find out what exactly was offered and what exactly is the true value of the IP to the seller and what is the ture value of the IP to the buyer. I bet when those numbers are no where close to each other, then the problem of what exactly happened can be seen.
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Well Ammon put forth that the "value of an IP" can include things that are more than the game...ancillary products like books, movie rights, etc. These would inflate the "value" to as much as 100 million dollars. And this is true...to an extent.
However, when you start talking ancillary products, you are also blue-skying to death. As an author, I know a lot about the real value of ancillary rights, as opposed to "what you tell the stockholders."
Let's take CoH, point by point.
Movie rights:
CoH has been optioned, it is true. I will also bet any amount of money you like that the price of the option was somewhere in the neighborhood of $5,000 to $25,000. Stuff gets optioned all the time and nothing ever comes of it. As an example, Mists of Avalon, Marion Zimmer Bradley's megahuge Arthurian novel that never dropped off the Trade Paper bestseller list, was optioned right out of the gate by George C. Scott, who held onto those options (at about $25,000 every five years) until he died. Only then did the series get made--for TV. Did all right, but certainly was not a blockbuster movie and certainly did not make millions of dollars. And for a game to be made into a movie, well there kind of needs to be a living game to generate initial support for the movie. So, movie rights for CoH? Until the current option runs out--worth zero. Someone already has them. Once the current option runs out? At that point the trend for superhero movies could well have died, and there will be no living game to support it. I would say, worth maybe $5,000. Certainly not millions.
Book rights:
There were, already, three CoH books written. They are not currently in print, and did not do well. This bodes very ill for future book projects. I won't go into why, in my estimation, they did not do well; the simple facts speak for themselves, and book buyers for the big chains are going to be reluctant to order any new books based on the track record of the old books. A traditional publisher is going to be equally reluctant to pick up such a project for the same reason, and because the game is not live. This means the books would have to be funded by NCSoft. So book rights, are not only not worth millions, at this point, book rights are worth $0.
Comic rights:
See book rights.
Other kinds of games:
It's certainly possible to make a standalone console game, or even a standalone PC game out of CoH. It's certainly possible to make a side-scrolling browser game. But NCSoft has killed the original game. So it would be as if they were starting from scratch. NCSoft has no studios working on console games or standalone PC games; they have no experience with marketing these things. This means that the "value" of the rights for such applications is pretty much what another studio would be willing to pay for it--and looking at all the acrimony that NCSoft has generated at this point, if I were the manager of such a studio, I would be saying "No, you pay me to do this for you. I sure as hell am not taking the risk."
Toys, etc:
No game? No market. End of discussion.
The bottom line here is that while NCSoft can place some crazy valuation on City's ancillary rights, the real world value of such things, total, is not $100 million. It's more like $100,000. If that.
As for the value of City itself, if the buyer were able to reboot within a couple of months, probably what Valve offered; about $3 million. But this is contingent on being able to reboot quickly. I suspect, although I do not know, that the value would degrade rather quickly over time. City plus Paragon Studios could be worth much more; I couldn't put a value on Paragon Studios.
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Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.
I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...
"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."
That's what my crystal ball is telling me. I tried shaking it to get a different image, but all it said was "Radio. RADIO! RADIOOOOOOO! Free Opportunity!" ...and that didn't help much really ;)
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Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.
I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...
"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."
That's what my crystal ball is telling me. I tried shaking it to get a different image, but all it said was "Radio. RADIO! RADIOOOOOOO! Free Opportunity!" ...and that didn't help much really ;)
I have a gut itch that you may not be too far off with that prediction.
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Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.
I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...
They're welcome to sell it. Who will buy it? That's a good question. I don't see any way a "City"-scale game works well in a tablet - or, $deity-forbid, smartphone - format. It'd be something with the name attached and the soul sucked out.
Pass.
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"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tabletsMuch like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."
If they really want to do that, just make it cross-platform for crying out loud. But even then, it's hard to say if I'd play it. CoH came from a very different era of gaming, when MMO's targeted a specific subset of people. Sadly, this is part of the reason the community here was so great. A mass-appeal version of CoH, in the modern gaming age, targeting people who only know how to use internet because it now enhances their social butterfly lifestyle? That would water the community down to the point of oblivion. It would make the game feel like a 3D version of Facebook.
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Next post in my quest to make life a living hell for NCSoft's PR firm.
http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1258 (http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1258)
Sadly, CCCP works on some extremely old board software and I couldn't make it do proper clickable hyperlinks.
Woohoo! I win! I found an item with links coded, got the edit of the page and figured out how to make it work!
Bwahahahaha
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If I had any suggestions, it's that normally you'd want to integrate links into what you're already saying. Like "stocks slide to a new 52 week low" would link to the stock page. "a game so close to perilously close to soft-core pornography" could link to the first blade and soul link, and you could link "'Boobs and shame' or 'Bits and Tits'" to the video.
At least, that's how I would normally structure links into a post. Any thoughts on this from Ammon? I'm not an expert in this.
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Which is probably why they have just valued all their IP's *combined* at around the $2million mark.
Sure, someone could buy the IP for City of Heroes, but that wouldn't actually include any work done on the game side though. So how much is the game code actually worth? Once again, it is a value that we actually don't know, and one that is *hard* to gauge, because it has had years of work done on it. One could make the argument that the game code and content itself was more valuable in August than it was at launch.
I think that's doubtful. The game engine is flawed and dated. Even the code base built on it is probably not worth much without the ability to hire a number of developers familiar with it. And then it's only real value is to run CoH. So neither the engine nor the code base is likely to have much value now that Paragon Studios is disbanded. And when CoH shuts down in a 5 weeks even that small value is likely to drop. Given that the content is tied to those tech elements, even that isn't worth much.
IMO, the majority of the IP value at this point resides in the non-tech IP. And most of that is tied up in a potential CoH2. Which NCSoftcore has done a very good job of making worth as little as possible by alienating a large chunk of any potential market for such a product published by them.
When they made their announcement at the beginning of Oct I believe that made the customer list the most valuable asset in the CoH/PS bundle, since by that time PS was unrecoverable and they'd done a great job of undermining the value of the CoH brand (it's main value to NCSoftcore at this point might be to keep a competitor from making them look bad).
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"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."
A 2D side-scrolling version of CoH. Thanks, I'll pass.
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If I had any suggestions, it's that normally you'd want to integrate links into what you're already saying. Like "stocks slide to a new 52 week low" would link to the stock page. "a game so close to perilously close to soft-core pornography" could link to the first blade and soul link, and you could link "'Boobs and shame' or 'Bits and Tits'" to the video.
At least, that's how I would normally structure links into a post. Any thoughts on this from Ammon? I'm not an expert in this.
Thanks!
I'm just glad I got clickable links to work at all.
The CCCP site is mostly kludge-code that dates all the way back to 2005 in most places. (The original coder actually denied to my face that he was the one that coded it in order to get out of helping me to fix it when a hacker hit it.)
I'll work on this as I get more familiar with putting stuff up on it, but at least I have two of Ammon's three major "needs" to increase visibility. I have keywords in the titles that will get business people rather than gamers, and I have clickable links. The third--embedded video--I don't think we even have the capability to do on that site.
After November 30th if you are feeling the ache of withdrawal and think some decent CoH fan-fiction might help, please feel free to browse through the archives by clicking "View All Story Arcs" and reading in chronological order.
As for a 2-D sidescrolling version of CoH....if it were the last electronic game on the planet, I would be playing checkers in the park with retirees.
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As for a 2-D sidescrolling version of CoH....if it were the last electronic game on the planet, I would be playing checkers in the park with retirees.
Indeed, this is another thing that puzzles me - suppose my tinfoil hat theory is right and the two-headed giant Nexsoft do want to make an i-device product out of CoH...who the heck would buy it anyway? Existing players would rather shove their iphone painfully into parts of said two-headed giant's nether anatomy, and the CoH-naive are simply going to say "Superheroes? Where's Batman then? Not interested..." ???
As always, nothing that Nexsoft does seems to make any sense whatsoever.
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Thanks!
As for a 2-D sidescrolling version of CoH....if it were the last electronic game on the planet, I would be playing checkers in the park with retirees.
Can I make a tentative reservation w/ you on a couple games of... chess maybe? ;)
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To be fair, the plan may be to kill CoH to make the fans grateful when it revives in that format, calculating that they wouldn't have been interested if the PC game was still alive. Very cynical, and obviously at this point grotesquely flawed, but a possible original plan.
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NOOOOOOOOO NEXON no! We don't wan't a stupid side scrolling, dumbed down, iphone/tablet piece of crap. Why can't they just sell it to someone who gets us? I am so dissapointed in NC and NEXON. Why? Why are they both so stupid? They want us to evolve? We evolved that game for 8 years! They are the ones who need to get on board and evolve. We don't want stupid phone games. Leave that to Zinga. Phone/tablet games are the de-evolution of games. I might as well play genesis or atari.
"i feel like i'm a kid.... and all i wnt for my birthday is a simple little red remote controlled car...... i keep telling my parrents that this is what i want and i even show them exactly what it looks like and where they can find it.... i also tell them that this is the ONLY thing that i want for my birthday and NOTHING else..... but when my birthday actually rolls around and i open up my gift i see that it is not the little red remote controlled car that i wanted... but some over the top gaudy looking space toy that i never wanted in the first place because it's stupid...... that is exactly what i feel like right now....."~RockDeadman
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Genesis/Atari > iPhone games.
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Genesis/Atari > iPhone games.
All the wisdom are belong to you :-)
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Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.
I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...
"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."
That's what my crystal ball is telling me. I tried shaking it to get a different image, but all it said was "Radio. RADIO! RADIOOOOOOO! Free Opportunity!" ...and that didn't help much really ;)
I'm wearing the same tinfoil hat. I fear they will be trying to make a smartphone game out of the IP as well.
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I um.. took out my meditation crystal stones... Think I might try the tin foil.
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I um.. took out my meditation crystal stones... Think I might try the tin foil.
I've been wearing one of those before they became the 'in' thing.
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I got well a good size amount of crystals and stones. Divination mostly for me using Norse Rune methods I modified for my use. Been doing that for ... er 15 or 16 years now give or take.
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There is a chance for CoH2, NCSoft recently extended the trademark on the name:
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=85004611&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
but that still doesn't make since to cancel the original before releasing CoH2
and as far as why they won't sell, I believe, is because they don't want the competition of CoH on their new releases. And they don't want anyone else making more money on CoH than they are making on their new titles. It's kind of a "It's ours and you can't have it" type of attitude.
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I got well a good size amount of crystals and stones. Divination mostly for me using Norse Rune methods I modified for my use. Been doing that for ... er 15 or 16 years now give or take.
Hmm... considering a lot of Hero lore is rooted in Norse mythos, do you think Odin might be interested in giving NCsoft a kick in the nads? 8)
There is a chance for CoH2, NCSoft recently extended the trademark on the name:
Given the situation, 2010 is hardly recent. The 'realignment of company focus' BS was announced because it was an unprecedented shift in their long-term goals. Anything NCsoft was thinking even a year ago, is probably irrelevant now.
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4TH extension granted on October 23, 2012
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(https://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/GameKiller/Ahighnote_zpsb087cf53.jpg)
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Wow, nice one Hyperstrike! Did you draw that? O.O
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(https://i.imgur.com/H6tmQ.jpg)
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Wow, nice one Hyperstrike! Did you draw that? O.O
No, had it pointed out to me on FB.
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Wow, nice one Hyperstrike! Did you draw that? O.O
*raises hand*
I'm the guilty party for drawing that toon, and Quinch can share the rap for the idea behind it ;D
I uploaded it to the GameKiller folder at the MMOKiller (http://s1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/) Photobucket site - feel free to drop in, browse around, and download whatever you like to use wherever you want :)
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4TH extension granted on October 23, 2012
Aren't extensions of this type only good for one year? If so, NCSoft is going to be spending a lot of money just to make sure that NO ONE can use their IP in any form.
Sad.
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Aren't extensions of this type only good for one year? If so, NCSoft is going to be spending a lot of money just to make sure that NO ONE can use their IP in any form.
Sad.
Registering a trademark doesn't cost very much at all to maintain. I doubt they'd even notice it.
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There is a chance for CoH2, NCSoft recently extended the trademark on the name:
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=85004611&caseType=SERIAL_NO&searchType=statusSearch
but that still doesn't make since to cancel the original before releasing CoH2
That sounds more like they don't want anyone else, especially perhaps some other iteration of a re-formed Paragon Studios, possibly taking the name if it's left out in the wilds.
One just never knows, does one? ;)
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Registering a trademark doesn't cost very much at all to maintain. I doubt they'd even notice it.
My understanding ( I could be wrong) that this is the Fourth of Five allowed extensions of the ITU (Intent To Use) and they have to renew every 6 months at this point. If they do not show use or work by the end of the 5 extension they could lose the copyright. I doubt that they will lose it, but if it does go into default I know a few people that would snatch it up as quick as they can. ;)
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My understanding ( I could be wrong) that this is the Fourth of Five allowed extensions of the ITU (Intent To Use) and they have to renew every 6 months at this point. If they do not show use or work by the end of the 5 extension they could lose the copyright. I doubt that they will lose it, but if it does go into default I know a few people that would snatch it up as quick as they can. ;)
So that makes 1 year before they start working on City of Heroes 2, or 1 year before they get City of Heroes 2 out ?
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So that makes 1 year before they start working on City of Heroes 2, or 1 year before they get City of Heroes 2 out ?
I believe 1 year before they show work in progress, that means that it could be whatever Paragon Studios was working on or the dreaded sidescroller that was mentioned in another thread that they could label as COH2.
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I believe 1 year before they show work in progress, that means that it could be whatever Paragon Studios was working on or the dreaded sidescroller that was mentioned in another thread that they could label as COH2.
Paragon Studios Secret Software (PSSS ?) is reportedly KIA with PS itself, and was reportedly a new franchise.
I've already seen a sequel dumbed down from the original... (Supreme Commander), but not this much ! Side-scrolled would really kill all of us ten times.
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Paragon Studios Secret Software (PSSS ?) is reportedly KIA with PS itself, and was reportedly a new franchise.
True, but it is still artwork that hasn't been shown to anyone and a COH2 label being slapped on it wouldn't take much. It is what I would do if I wanted to hold on to a name that I have copyrighted.
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True, but it is still artwork that hasn't been shown to anyone and a COH2 label being slapped on it wouldn't take much. It is what I would do if I wanted to hold on to a name that I have copyrighted.
For that matter, they could take the concept work that they themselves shuttered 2 years ago for the REAL CoH2, slap the name on it, and call it done. If what I have been told is correct, they sent their people in immediately to strip the offices, and that CoH2 stuff should still have been in the files.
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I'm getting better at this!
http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259 (http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259)
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I'm getting better at this!
http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259 (http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259)
Is Nigel single? Because I just fell a little bit in love with him. ;D
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It's also on reddit - http://redd.it/12d7uf
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I'm getting better at this!
http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259 (http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259)
Better? You are getting brilliant at this :-)
Everytime I see one of your posts, I scratch my humble attempts at writing something. 8)
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I'm just tickled to death I managed to embed the clickables in the text this time.
Want to see what I have to go through to do that? Here's the code I have to literally put in manually:
"<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill " blank">take a little nap while his ship hit a rock < /a>"
And THANK YOU so much for the Reddit!
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Just wanted to pop in quickly to 1) Thank everyone for the continued efforts. Great job and thank you!
2) After talking with Captain-Excitement about the recent podcast with Matt Miller ( http://www.analogholegaming.com/episodes/2012/10/26/episode-233.html ), we agreed that the point Captain pulled from the podcast ...as a matter of fact, City of Heroes is the largest and most active MMO ever to be shut down. Specifically, it had more active and average concurrent daily users than any MMO ever to be shut down.
should possibly be used for us in our continued efforts to make the public, the press and everyone informed and interested in order to make NCSoft aware of how serious of a hit this can be and influence them to make real efforts to sell this beloved game.
I have to run now, but I wanted to pop on and mention this to you good people!
Take care and I hope all are well and safe if you happened to run into Sandy recently! (In the Hudson Valley of New York and managed to mostly watch her go by without much incident at all).
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um...is it just me or is the link broken Electric-Knight? NVM it's working now
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I'm just tickled to death I managed to embed the clickables in the text this time.
Want to see what I have to go through to do that? Here's the code I have to literally put in manually:
"<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill " blank">take a little nap while his ship hit a rock < /a>"
And THANK YOU so much for the Reddit!
Mmmm... Good ol' HTML. Party like it's 1999!
Anyone who has a blog can do this, right? Not quality, so much as quantity?
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I'm just tickled to death I managed to embed the clickables in the text this time.
Want to see what I have to go through to do that? Here's the code I have to literally put in manually:
"<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill " blank">take a little nap while his ship hit a rock < /a>"
And THANK YOU so much for the Reddit!
Yep, that's html. I remember having to use that to make links in forum posts, back before sites started limiting what you could make posts do.
Also I broke a thread with </table> while experimenting. Spam enough of those and everything past my post would be destroyed.
I think stuff like that is why posts aren't allowed to use straight html anymore.
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I'm getting better at this!
http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259 (http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259)
That, VV, is absolutely awesome. Great copy for search, good length, powerful message for people, and some links in there too. Top marks. :D
Anyone who has a blog can do this, right? Not quality, so much as quantity?
In terms of helping the effort, you don't even need a blog. Anywhere you can post a link online, such as facebook, twitter, or G+ can all help someone else's post to do better both in reads, and in search engines.
However, yes, beyond just linking to stuff, (which anyone here should be able to do), any additional articles that can carry a message and links to pages we want to be found is a 'good thing'. Also if you have a blog, but don't feel you have the writing skills, do feel free to offer up some guest posting opportunities. The more volume we can create, the more weight it can all have directed in to particular hubs, such as these forums.
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That, VV, is absolutely awesome. Great copy for search, good length, powerful message for people, and some links in there too. Top marks. :D
In terms of helping the effort, you don't even need a blog. Anywhere you can post a link online, such as facebook, twitter, or G+ can all help someone else's post to do better both in reads, and in search engines.
However, yes, beyond just linking to stuff, (which anyone here should be able to do), any additional articles that can carry a message and links to pages we want to be found is a 'good thing'. Also if you have a blog, but don't feel you have the writing skills, do feel free to offer up some guest posting opportunities. The more volume we can create, the more weight it can all have directed in to particular hubs, such as these forums.
Indeed. There is a reason why I settled on the title "Voices."
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*raises hand*
I'm the guilty party for drawing that toon, and Quinch can share the rap for the idea behind it ;D
I uploaded it to the GameKiller folder at the MMOKiller (http://s1339.photobucket.com/albums/o714/MMOKiller/) Photobucket site - feel free to drop in, browse around, and download whatever you like to use wherever you want :)
Mad skillz, Turjan, mad skillz! ;D
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Look at you go, VV!
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"If what I have been told is correct, they sent their people in immediately to strip the offices..."
Dear Lord! See, that's just so ugly and crass, it's like some corporate Gestapo pounding down the door of your workplace. When the devs are free to speak, that deserves more attention.
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"If what I have been told is correct, they sent their people in immediately to strip the offices..."
Dear Lord! See, that's just so ugly and crass, it's like some corporate Gestapo pounding down the door of your workplace. When the devs are free to speak, that deserves more attention.
In a couple of the Twitch talks you can hear the workers breaking down the stripped cubicles in the background.
Thank you, Ammon! Oh and anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can feel free to copy and crosspost any of the CCCP posts. After all, this IS the CCCP and Commissar Belladonna is in charge of Propaganda. Just link back to the original, please.
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That not only summarized the entire thing very well but also wrapped it in several layers of caustic sarcasm - in an extremely appropriate fashion. ;D
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I watched the last Twitchcast and thought........
Nothing says CoH like seeing Black Pebble wearing Mickey Mouse ears and gold boxing gloves while imitating an Irish/Scottish pirate.
That was worth seven years of playing the game...LOLOL
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Yes indeed. :D
And may I just say - Tunnel Rat is ADORABLE!!!
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Yes indeed. :D
And may I just say - Tunnel Rat is ADORABLE!!!
I was thinking "HOT!!!". But, adorable works too. :)
She won't see this will she? I mean, It'd be embarrassing if she were to know that I thought she was hot.
Um...
<hides>
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Hmm for whatever reason I couldnt find the original FB post a second time. I went to my long neglected FB acc't (2 years inactive? I hate FB) to reply to the OP on FB. While it's nice to know I have permission to quote the CCCP (would that include simply posting this link? http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259 ) and while I loved reading NCSoft Drops the Ball, it didn't express in tone what I wanted to convey nor my perspective, as a consumer writing a company to either continue/restore a discontinued product or else sell it to another who would. (This worked by the way when Fit was taken off the market - not enough consumer demand they said. Whoops! and here is back: http://www.fitwash.com/ )
Is NCSoft simply deleting all comments, including their PR reply? CoH is like a "family member"? Gimme a break! Since when does one "sunset" a family member, when that family member is still vital and all reasonable if not extraordinary measures have been taken? (Sorry, you guys already made that point but I needed to rant a little.)
If I had used the CCCP article I would have expanded the title to read NCSoft Drops the Ball and Its About to Shatter (unless appropriate action is taken swiftly.)
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Hmm for whatever reason I couldnt find the original FB post a second time. I went to my long neglected FB acc't (2 years inactive? I hate FB) to reply to the OP on FB. While it's nice to know I have permission to quote the CCCP (would that include simply posting this link? http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1259 ) and while I loved reading NCSoft Drops the Ball, it didn't express in tone what I wanted to convey nor my perspective, as a consumer writing a company to either continue/restore a discontinued product or else sell it to another who would. (This worked by the way when Fit was taken off the market - not enough consumer demand they said. Whoops! and here is back: http://www.fitwash.com/ )
Is NCSoft simply deleting all comments, including their PR reply? CoH is like a "family member"? Gimme a break! Since when does one "sunset" a family member, when that family member is still vital and all reasonable if not extraordinary measures have been taken? (Sorry, you guys already made that point but I needed to rant a little.)
If I had used the CCCP article I would have expanded the title to read NCSoft Drops the Ball and Its About to Shatter (unless appropriate action is taken swiftly.)
The three CCCP articles are only the beginning. I've been a bit derailed by an international trip but there are more to come.
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The three CCCP articles are only the beginning. I've been a bit derailed by an international trip but there are more to come.
Canada's international? :D
Hope you enjoyed Toronto, that's in my neck of the woods!
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Canada's international? :D
Hope you enjoyed Toronto, that's in my neck of the woods!
Canada is not the 52nd state in the US. :p
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You're right. It's our hat. Gotta keep the Northern states warm somehow. j/k :P
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You're right. It's our hat. Gotta keep the Northern states warm somehow. j/k :P
While we kid about Canada I have a joke. An elderly couple lived in Canada near the North Dakotan border, so close in fact that they weren't sure if they were technically in Canada or North Dakota. One day they finally declared that their home was indeed in North Dakota. The old woman says 'Thank god! I couldn't take another Canadian winter!"
Not nearly as funny if you haven't experienced a Canadian or North Dakotan winter, but it makes me chuckle :D
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While we kid about Canada I have a joke. An elderly couple lived in Canada near the North Dakotan border, so close in fact that they weren't sure if they were technically in Canada or North Dakota. One day they finally declared that their home was indeed in North Dakota. The old woman says 'Thank god! I couldn't take another Canadian winter!"
Not nearly as funny if you haven't experienced a Canadian or North Dakotan winter, but it makes me chuckle :D
...I live in Minnesota. I scoff at your Canadian and North Dakotan winters. >.>
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Hah.
DHave you ever shoveled 3 ft drifts in -40 temperatures? I have. Canadian Winters get worse the further north you go.
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...I live in Minnesota. I scoff at your Canadian and North Dakotan winters. >.>
You guys get all that cold wind blowing through from West to East.
We used to get all the snow that wind dropped on us after it blew over Superior when I was in college. Diving into a fresh drift of powder is fun! (More fun if you're bolting out of the sauna door to dive in and run back in.)
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Hah.
DHave you ever shoveled 3 ft drifts in -40 temperatures? I have. Canadian Winters get worse the further north you go.
No, because when it gets that cold I refuse to go outside, like every other sane and rational human being. (And it DOES get that cold here.)
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See - that's why Canadians needed City of Heroes even more than Americans did! It's something to do and social connectivity in the long dark winters under the blankets of snow! :D
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See - that's why Canadians needed City of Heroes even more than Americans did! It's something to do and social connectivity in the long dark winters under the blankets of snow! :D
Not really. If you take a look at certain indicators of demographics, there's something else that fills the time....
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Not really. If you take a look at certain indicators of demographics, there's something else that fills the time....
There sure are a large number of late summer/fall babies.........
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Not really. If you take a look at certain indicators of demographics, there's something else that fills the time....
The same holds true for power outages. Which are common in snowstorms.
City of Heroes on the other hand, doesn't deal well with downed lines, as I learned all too well last week. :P
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Not really. If you take a look at certain indicators of demographics, there's something else that fills the time....
I rather thought that was so obvious I didn't need to mention it. :P
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I rather thought that was so obvious I didn't need to mention it. :P
Yeah, it's kinda silly. Everyone knows they waste their storm-time singing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL7n5mEmXJo).
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See - that's why Canadians needed City of Heroes even more than Americans did! It's something to do and social connectivity in the long dark winters under the blankets of snow! :D
Would that explain Red/Green man, with the Duct Tape powerset?
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Would that explain Red/Green man, with the Duct Tape powerset?
yes, sadly, Red Green was snowed in for so long that he started experimenting with the case of duct tape he had. He found so many uses for it that he just had to make his own TV show and tell everyone about it.
And Tim, everyone knows that we sing about Back Bacon and Beer in the Great White North (ko ko ko kooo ko ko ko). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqzZ1UkypqU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqzZ1UkypqU)