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Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: TimtheEnchanter on October 02, 2012, 09:17:51 PM

Title: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 02, 2012, 09:17:51 PM
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 02, 2012, 09:18:32 PM
Yeap.

Nobody do anything stupid until we hear from Brian Clayton's group and TonyV.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 02, 2012, 09:21:40 PM
Yeah definitely not the response I was hoping for :(
So it looks like Plan A is down the tubes officially now.


So basically this means the game is dead.


Looks like my last hoorah will be on 10/20/2012 then when I do the Extra Life campaign. I will continue to try to get sponsors because Children's Miracle Network is an awesome cause...and it looks like 10/20 will be the last time my in game friends and I will get together.


I have no desire to be a part of plan Z or anything like that. I wanted the game to continue; even if it was on a skeleton crew of designers etc...damn it I wanted Issue 24.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 02, 2012, 09:22:47 PM
Yeah definitely not the response I was hoping for :(
So it looks like Plan A is down the tubes officially now.


So basically this means the game is dead.


Looks like my last hoorah will be on 10/20/2012 then when I do the Extra Life campaign. I will continue to try to get sponsors because Children's Miracle Network is an awesome cause...and it looks like 10/20 will be the last time my in game friends and I will get together.


I have no desire to be a part of plan Z or anything like that. I wanted the game to continue; even if it was on a skeleton crew of designers etc...damn it I wanted Issue 24.

To further clarify, I consider "giving up" to be "doing something stupid." >.> Knock it off until we hear from Brian. :P
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Golden Girl on October 02, 2012, 09:23:23 PM
I'm still not giving up on a last minute rescue.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: V-Mink on October 02, 2012, 09:23:51 PM
To further clarify, I consider "giving up" to be "doing something stupid." >.> Knock it off until we hear from Brian. :P
Delurking to approve of this message.

/em holdtorch

ETA: And to note that we ARE talking about the company that forged a resignation letter as part of closing another game.  Waiting for someone slightly more... shall we say... reliable to chime in would seem to be prudent.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 02, 2012, 09:25:53 PM
"Exhausted options" really makes no sense in the business world. It 'sounds' like there's an attempt to get more investors, so why is NC saying "No" now, instead of waiting?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Knightslayer on October 02, 2012, 09:26:42 PM
Yeap.

Nobody do anything stupid until we hear from Brian Clayton's group and TonyV.
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Jetfire99 on October 02, 2012, 09:27:49 PM
Keep calm don't drink the NCSOFT-aid kiddos. Seriously don't we need to keep up the heat we actually got them to respond lets keep going, and keep it blue.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: darkquill on October 02, 2012, 09:28:07 PM
I believe we should prepare to go on PR-wartime footing.  If we do not hear from the other side of the negotiations, I'm prepared to assume that NCSoft did not negotiate in good faith.

PR-Wartime Footing would mean things like:
-spreading the MMOkiller meme
-advocating boycotts

Waiting to hear from Clayton and/or Tony seems reasonable. Jumping to PR-Wartime Footing this very afternoon would seem pre-emptive.

Edit for clarity: lock and load for the next phase. Just don't fire yet, eh?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TheFlea on October 02, 2012, 09:28:21 PM
Nice words. Shame they're the same words you said to us on August 31st. The same words you said on September 3rd. The same words you said during the week following.

If you're going to attempt to repackage them then try harder.

We've not brought our Kronos to your Hamidon Raid yet NCSoft.

Kronos has a hold too, after all.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 09:29:09 PM
Do not mistake this for the end, my friends.  There is no way NCsoft has exhausted everything they can do.  That's a bold-faced lie.  However, we still don't know exactly what it means.  I take it to mean one of a couple things:

1) The current negotiations have fallen through.  This does not mean that future negotiations are doomed to fail, however.

2) They've exhausted ideas that they are willing to entertain.  In other words, we need to make them willing to entertain more drastic or difficult measures.

3) They're really, really desperate to get us to back off.  This has more of a conspiracy theory air to it, but it's a possibility considering we've forced multiple blinks.

However, until we know more (probably from Hitstreak or Mr. Clayton) this is all speculation.  But the take home message is:   WE ARE NOT BEATEN YET

Love you guys, we'll get through it. 
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Teege on October 02, 2012, 09:29:17 PM
"Exhausted options" really makes no sense in the business world. It 'sounds' like there's an attempt to get more investors, so why is NC saying "No" now, instead of waiting?

Could be a number of things like asking for more than they'd get by writing it off. I still think a factor that isn't easily overcome: They don't want to risk Company B making it more profitable than it was under their control.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Codewalker on October 02, 2012, 09:29:39 PM
"Exhausted options" really makes no sense in the business world. It 'sounds' like there's an attempt to get more investors, so why is NC saying "No" now, instead of waiting?

Especially since I know for a fact that there have been attempts from serious investors to acquire the IP, not counting Brian Clayton's efforts, that were not answered or even acknowledged. So no, they did not "exhaust" anything.

It's PR fluff to get people to shut up, pure and simple.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 02, 2012, 09:30:09 PM
As I said in the News thread, we are not yet done with the time for patience. Keep holding the course we've set, at LEAST until the end of the week. We need to hear from Brian and others who were representing Paragon Studios, who were trying to be the ones buying. I cannot even speculate what they will be able to say and what they won't, nor what they WILL say and what they won't.

If we get silence or find out that Brian et al have had to give up, then we may need to increase the pressure in more hardball ways. But even as we do that, we must remain united. It is not yet Nov. 30. Do not go apocalyptic. Plan A is not truly hopeless until we KNOW why NCSoft says it failed, or NCSoft does something other than sit on the IP et al. SOMEBODY might be able to make an offer they find acceptable, especially if we keep it up.

We can be strong, resolute, and yet disciplined. The carrot remains as important as the stick, even if we must start tightening the grip on the latter in preparation to use it. Do not scatter our force across ten million rain drops that annoy but ultimately only drive one to open an umbrella. Instead, we must be as a flood dropped all at once, directly in the right place, with the only refuge the high ground of the result we desire.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Turjan on October 02, 2012, 09:31:41 PM
"Exhausted options" really makes no sense in the business world. It 'sounds' like there's an attempt to get more investors, so why is NC saying "No" now, instead of waiting?
This is what I find most curious, but for the flipside of that same reason.

If their intention was always to kill the game and bury its bones in the desert (alongside the unmarked graves of Tabula Rasa, Exteel, etc etc) then why tell us this now? Why not keep stringing us along til Nov 30th and minimise any potential backlash from angry (and still active) players?

So I am forced to conclude that at least some of what they're saying is true, i.e. they were actually talking options.

Whether they were being sincere and/or reasonable with the demands in said options however, is another matter entirely...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Golden Girl on October 02, 2012, 09:34:04 PM
To be fair to NCoft, it would be pretty mentally exhausting to turn down money in exchange for somethimg that you intending to just throw away.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 02, 2012, 09:34:10 PM

No thanks.


Like I said 10/20 will be my last venture into Paragon City. Not doing it to #SaveCoH - doing it to raise money for children in need.


After that I will probably just uninstall CoH and close this chapter in my life.


I have absolutely no desire to play CoH unless it was a game that was advancing with new content etc. If others want to invest in a Plan B,X, Y, or Z that is their prerogative  Me... I am done. NCSoft has made their decision thus negating the possibility of the only plan that was acceptable to me (The sale of CoH so that it could continue legitimately).


I know you were trying to be humorous with yer "knock it off" comment, but truth be told... No. I am done. I'm not going to be one of those "you people should let go" "You people are dumb for trying" people, but I am done cheer-leading because the cause that I was fighting for...(the survival of CoH to continue on legitimately)  is no longer a remote possibility.


No amount of petition signature or articles will make NCSoft change their minds. They have made their decision twice now...so be it.





To further clarify, I consider "giving up" to be "doing something stupid." >.> Knock it off until we hear from Brian. :P
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Rae on October 02, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
Well..balls.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: downix on October 02, 2012, 09:35:57 PM
"Exhausted options" really makes no sense in the business world. It 'sounds' like there's an attempt to get more investors, so why is NC saying "No" now, instead of waiting?
It indeed makes no sense. I know they have failed to even respond to some interest, which says that no, not all options are exhausted.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 09:37:30 PM
It indeed makes no sense. I know they have failed to even respond to some interest, which says that no, not all options are exhausted.
I can understand if there are hurdles involving the account servers or whatever else, but if they're not willing to even enter into negotiations with other parties, they're not even trying.   
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 02, 2012, 09:37:50 PM
Burnt Toast, I do not suggest giving up hope until Nov. 30 at the earliest, barring solid information that shows exactly why this cannot happen.

I do not fault you for fatigue, nor for wishing to save your memories of it. But I hope you will continue to, if not actively cheerlead, at least cheer quietly in hope. You deserve that much!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Terwyn on October 02, 2012, 09:38:58 PM
If this is indeed true.... I can give a solemn guarantee that NCSoft will no longer exist as a viable company within a decade.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Vulpy on October 02, 2012, 09:39:05 PM
I can understand if there are hurdles involving the account servers or whatever else, but if they're not willing to even enter into negotiations with other parties, they're not even trying.

If we want to change the messages that's going to be circulating after this, though, we'll need one of those "other parties" to be willing to go public. Very public, in business and gaming news.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Vox Doom on October 02, 2012, 09:39:08 PM
Yeah.

I don't believe them.

Every effort?

Nope.

I'm looking forward to the private servers.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Teege on October 02, 2012, 09:40:19 PM
They're dealing with a PR shit storm and maybe the hurricane needs to be bumped up a category  8)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 02, 2012, 09:41:28 PM
Now, now. It's only been a heavy rain so far. We've got a couple levels of "Tropical Storm" to go through before we consider "Hurricane."  ;)

(Which is to say, "If they think it's bad now or that the next level is as bad as it gets...")
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 09:41:54 PM
If we want to change the messages that's going to be circulating after this, though, we'll need one of those "other parties" to be willing to go public. Very public, in business and gaming news.
Unfortunately I am not a member of one of those parties (my bank account has a resounding $21 in it), or I would be making it as public as humanly possible. 

That said, I agree.  I'd like for anyone involved with that kind of thing to chime in, if possible.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Electric-Knight on October 02, 2012, 09:43:21 PM
...
No amount of petition signature or articles will make NCSoft change their minds. They have made their decision twice now...so be it.
Third time is the charm! ;)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Golden Girl on October 02, 2012, 09:45:24 PM
I'd like the bidder/s to go public with just how much they were offering - it'd really help to keep the pressure on NCSoft if we could publicize what they were turning down in exchange for something that they were going to just throw away.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: SithRose on October 02, 2012, 09:46:13 PM
Keep talking. Keep pushing. Be polite. DO NOT give up.

They're giving us PR fluff. Don't fall for it.

Increase the pressure. Politely. Wait for the people who are actually going to give us real facts to have a chance to talk.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 09:47:30 PM
The best way to shut them up is to set up a fan fundraise. Gotta keep theirs eyebrows up.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 09:48:07 PM
I'd like the bidder/s to go public with just how much they were offering - it'd really help to keep the pressure on NCSoft if we could publicize what they were turning down in exchange for something that they were going to just throw away.
That'd be nice, yeah.  Would there be any issues with NDAs or otherwise that could stop this from happening?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: pandora114 on October 02, 2012, 09:48:42 PM
*em holdtorch*

Until the servers go dark  there will always be some hope. 

Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Cerulean Shadow on October 02, 2012, 09:50:32 PM
Those who said it was just PR fluff are absolutely right. This means nothing. It's a ploy to make us shut up. Which is a perfect time to turn up the heat. Keep banging those drums!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: eabrace on October 02, 2012, 09:51:40 PM
Quote
We've exhausted all options
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A3qCSaNCAAErkE6.png:thumb) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A3qCSaNCAAErkE6.png)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 02, 2012, 09:52:40 PM
They're dealing with a PR shit storm and maybe the hurricane needs to be bumped up a category  8)

Weather control, being my dream superpower since I was 5, I like the sound of this.  8)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 02, 2012, 09:52:58 PM
I'm not even sure it is a ploy (though a post in the other thread now has me suspicious). It could be their current honest belief. In which case, it means they're tired. And that we need to change their minds.

Which we definitely can do.

Ignoring my last two posts in the /em hold torch thread, we should consider something along the lines of the OP's suggestion in that thread as an ongoing attention-getter and support-show.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Rae on October 02, 2012, 09:53:17 PM
They do something like this whenever we're all fiesty. We were starting to flag a little and then Tim's video got us all fired up again (and we were all 'YAY LETS FIGHT GUYS'), and they announced the refunds and the sunset schedule of events and everyone was all like '..oh. Doooom.'

Now we're all Fansied up and getting a bunch of new interest and they've issued this.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Hyperstrike on October 02, 2012, 09:53:29 PM
Again.

Wait for word from Brian and TonyV.

Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 09:57:30 PM
Again.

Wait for word from Brian and TonyV.
I quite like the discussion that's going on, myself.  It gets me all fired up, which in turn will get others fired up, which means that eventually the whole world will be on fire.  Then what will NCsoft do?  :P 
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 09:57:56 PM
All in all, it means we finally got their attention and need to stop the mindless banging and come up with a real plan now. They couldn't continue ignoring us. This was their answer to the "fan".

Now, are we "fans" ? sure. But we are more than that. We have to prove them that we mean "business", they need to treat with us, Tony and all of us whole.

We are not disbanded or disgruntled. We have one, simple objective: keep the game alive. What's their objective ? We don't know yet, but we can discuss. We need more "serious" leverage than raw power now, I think.

I'm going to steal some words, we need MMs, dominators and defenders now, not Brutes. Now that we got the aggro, we need debuffs and buffs.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Codewalker on October 02, 2012, 09:58:25 PM
I quite like the discussion that's going on, myself.  It gets me all fired up, which in turn will get others fired up, which means that eventually the whole world will be on fire.  Then what will NCsoft do?  :P

It would be ironic if a PR move intended to shut down the "save COH" movement wound up catalyzing it.

Just sayin' :)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: pandora114 on October 02, 2012, 09:59:17 PM
Tempted to come up with a very scathing blog post about this.  But, I want to keep it civil and calm, but they  need to be called out on their bull.

*sigh*

I'll keep my fingers still for now.  After TonyV says to release the hounds..you better believe I'll be posting a nastygram.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Palladiamors on October 02, 2012, 10:00:51 PM
These are standard demoralization tactics.  A month in and they've 'exhausted' their options?  Hardly.  We're putting pressure on them,  and they don't like that.  So they are trying to send us a clear "Its over" message,  when in reality nothing is over.  But the more of us they can knock off the wagon,  the less they'll lose over this whole fiasco.  I am sure they are aware that they can not afford a continuing campaign on the players part that makes them look bad,  and the longer we refuse to give up the worse they look.  This is damage control,  and not even at its most convincing or finest.

Do yourselves a favor NCsoft,  and next time hire some one who knows how to handle damage control,  and who isn't just going to stir up the hornets nest with bull.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 02, 2012, 10:04:04 PM
This is my reply to NCSoft - They will never see another (https://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd369/IBurntTheToast/UninstallGuildWars2.jpg)penny from me:



Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Arcana on October 02, 2012, 10:06:24 PM
It would be ironic if a PR move intended to shut down the "save COH" movement wound up catalyzing it.

Just sayin' :)

I don't get the impression its intended to do even that.  I get the impression they felt the need to acknowledge the player response, so they waited what they felt was an appropriate amount of time and then cranked out a generic "we hear you" message.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 10:07:40 PM
I don't get the impression its intended to do even that.  I get the impression they felt the need to acknowledge the player response, so they waited what they felt was an appropriate amount of time and then cranked out a generic "we hear you" message.
With the generic "you're doomed hero, you have no chance to win" taunt too.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Jetfire99 on October 02, 2012, 10:07:49 PM
As Golden Girl said a few posts back why doesn't the bidder come forward if they need more cash? *points at ever last person with a torch*

I'd be willing to chip in money I'm sure many of you would even if it's a few bucks.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Knightslayer on October 02, 2012, 10:08:03 PM
These are standard demoralization tactics.
And the result is a sudden influx of new voices speaking up on the forums here.
I'd say their ploy has backfired.  8)
Welcome!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
Seriously doesn't the bidder realize the players like us would be willing to add money to the bid if only to save the game? I damn well would who else would?
In fact, e wouln't add to it, we would repay it.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Turjan on October 02, 2012, 10:09:02 PM
You know what's laughable? Have a look at their share prices since the end of August :-

(https://i.imgur.com/nsMuI.jpg)

NCSoft stock is down 6.92% on what it was the day Guild Wars 2 launched. If shutting down CoH was indeed not about profit/loss but was a ploy to boost shareholder confidence after the announcement of Q2 losses, then it seems to have been about as successful as trying to seal a torpedo hole with a sticking plaster.

That huge spike is due to sales of 2 million copies of Guild Wars 2...and the subsequent drop is likely because they'd hyped the market to expect sales of double that. 2 million copies is a fair old sale I'd say...but they were so desperate to claw back the losses they made in Q2 that (as always) they overcooked their PR and got burnt.

That's what saddens me the most really - the fact that we might simply be corporate collateral damage in a  share price fight they weren't winning anyway :(
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: pandora114 on October 02, 2012, 10:09:11 PM
I know I'd pitch in.  I know if a little indie company wanted the IP, and said "NCsoft wants $X we only can afford $Y"  You bet your freeking britches this community would raise the remainder!  Look how fast we raised cash for the devs dinner!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Rae on October 02, 2012, 10:10:25 PM
Is this sort of like in the films, where the bad guy outlines their entire dastardly scheme to the incapacitated hero, maniacally laughs, and then gets dunked his own tank of sharks with lasers when the hero escapes?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: SithRose on October 02, 2012, 10:10:35 PM
With the generic "you're doomed hero, you have no chance to win" taunt too.

Monologuing villains NEVER win against the heroes.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: eabrace on October 02, 2012, 10:12:27 PM
Let's recognize this announcement for what it is:  We've fooled them into monologuing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBIMQxsJb_s&t=1m25s
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 10:13:16 PM
Monologuing villains NEVER win against the heroes.
Hell no they don't !
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Rae on October 02, 2012, 10:13:30 PM
I bloody love you guys, I swear to god.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Knightward on October 02, 2012, 10:13:59 PM
To be fair to NCoft, it would be pretty mentally exhausting to turn down money in exchange for somethimg that you intending to just throw away.
Win.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 10:14:35 PM
Let's recognize this announcement for what it is:  We've fooled them into monologuing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBIMQxsJb_s&t=1m25s
This is EXACTLY what I thought of.  Favorite movie, haha.

Now let's get to the part where their cape gets stuck in a turbine ;)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Terwyn on October 02, 2012, 10:14:39 PM
Monologuing villains NEVER win against the heroes.

Indeed. Usually the heroes take the time the villain spends monologuing to come up with a more effective plan of assault.

^_^

(Many consider "^_^" to be a mere happy face. For me, it means nothing less than "Come, Watson. The Game is Afoot!" or in other words, impending chaos.)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: SithRose on October 02, 2012, 10:15:17 PM
This is EXACTLY what I thought of.  Favorite movie, haha.

Now let's get to the part where their cape gets stuck in a turbine ;)

Let's prove Edna Mode wrong.

Send MORE CAPES! :)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 02, 2012, 10:16:41 PM

Not to be snarky but that was $1,000 we are talking upwards of $10 million+.


Heck we can't even get people to donate to the Extra Life Campaign which is sitting at less than $1,000 now after a week hehe.





I know I'd pitch in.  I know if a little indie company wanted the IP, and said "NCsoft wants $X we only can afford $Y"  You bet your freeking britches this community would raise the remainder!  Look how fast we raised cash for the devs dinner!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: pandora114 on October 02, 2012, 10:19:06 PM
Who says we have to cover ALL of it?  Get a publisher willing to pony up a good chunk of it, then we put in the rest to pad it.  Really. 

(btw I've been getting my Extra Life link out there.. not just to CoH players)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 02, 2012, 10:22:45 PM

Which is my point. If every poster on these forums who wasn't participating gave their monthly sub for Extra Life... we would be doing much better. Heck I have donated $24 ($12 to 2 people) just to help out some. I am finding people are all WOOHOO on the forums etc, but when it comes to actually supporting CoH with their wallets; not so much; which is why a fund raising of CoH players is not something I would consider feasible; especially in LARGE amounts of money.



Who says we have to cover ALL of it?  Get a publisher willing to pony up a good chunk of it, then we put in the rest to pad it.  Really. 

(btw I've been getting my Extra Life link out there.. not just to CoH players)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 10:24:01 PM
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=4407864#post4407864

As Local Man posted in the Twitch thread, Hitstreak quoted them.  Means almost more than slightly nothing, but really... doesn't add much.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TigerKnight on October 02, 2012, 10:24:13 PM
Let's recognize this announcement for what it is:  We've fooled them into monologuing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBIMQxsJb_s&t=1m25s

I so expected this to be the part where they are sitting in the car and Frozone starts talking about one of his adventures in the beginning and the two of them burst out laughing. I know the statement made me want to burst out laughing.... Really? The game has 2 months and you're exhausted already? Mental Note: After COH is saved, suggest that NS soft start a rigourous excercise program for it's people......
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: eabrace on October 02, 2012, 10:24:39 PM
Which is my point. If every poster on these forums who wasn't participating gave their monthly sub for Extra Life... we would be doing much better. Heck I have donated $24 ($12 to 2 people) just to help out some. I am finding people are all WOOHOO on the forums etc, but when it comes to actually supporting CoH with their wallets; not so much; which is why a fund raising of CoH players is not something I would consider feasible; especially in LARGE amounts of money.
Can't speak for others, but I was waiting to see my refund from NCsoft posted to my online credit card statement.  It showed up yesterday.  Haven't had time yet to make a donation yet today.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: eeek on October 02, 2012, 10:26:58 PM
This is my second post, after just (finally) registering, instead of just reading and following what's been going on.


This announcement INFURIATES me!  Such a blatant PR ploy to shut everyone up!  It's not even saying anything NEW!  Aug 31: "we're shutting down the game."  Oct. 2:  "really, we're shutting down the game."


Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 02, 2012, 10:27:57 PM
Hm. Falling stock prices.

Nah. As amusing as the thought is, even fallen like that, there's no way this community could simply buy up a share to compare with Nexon's.

Pity.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 10:28:43 PM
This is my second post, after just (finally) registering, instead of just reading and following what's been going on.


This announcement INFURIATES me!  Such a blatant PR ploy to shut everyone up!  It's not even saying anything NEW!  Aug 31: "we're shutting down the game."  Oct. 2:  "really, we're shutting down the game."

Welcome aboard.  It seems as though this is actually helping people come and join us.  Hah, NCsoft.  You're digging a hole.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: MishaFox on October 02, 2012, 10:29:11 PM
This stinks of PR CRAP. The 'Toss the noisy idiots something to shut them up', type ploy.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Terwyn on October 02, 2012, 10:29:41 PM
To be technical, NCSoft actually has yet to do *any* PR regarding the decision.

All they've done is barricaded themselves into a corner. And we've yet to unleash the siege weapons. ^_^
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Palladiamors on October 02, 2012, 10:31:14 PM
And the result is a sudden influx of new voices speaking up on the forums here.
I'd say their ploy has backfired.  8)
Welcome!

Oh I've been supporting the movement.  Just with this announcement I felt the need to speak up and try to do a little damage control.  They want us to shut up,  and the best way to do that is to just tell us its over.  And most likely yeah,  this will cost us a few people,  especially when it gets out mainstream,  which it will.   But we still have two months to go until lights out,  and even THAT doesn't mark the end.  They haven't exhausted their options.  But they know that no one they are talking to can say anything to the contrary,  so all we have is their word.  Which personally,  I ain't buyin'.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 02, 2012, 10:31:41 PM
This is my second post, after just (finally) registering, instead of just reading and following what's been going on.


This announcement INFURIATES me!  Such a blatant PR ploy to shut everyone up!  It's not even saying anything NEW!  Aug 31: "we're shutting down the game."  Oct. 2:  "really, we're shutting down the game."

Nov: 4 "no, really, guys. We mean it!"

<giggle>
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: laufeyjarson on October 02, 2012, 10:31:52 PM
Which is my point. If every poster on these forums who wasn't participating gave their monthly sub for Extra Life... we would be doing much better. Heck I have donated $24 ($12 to 2 people) just to help out some. I am finding people are all WOOHOO on the forums etc, but when it comes to actually supporting CoH with their wallets; not so much; which is why a fund raising of CoH players is not something I would consider feasible; especially in LARGE amounts of money.

Been hanging on to my funds for a drive to save the game itself.  There will always be excellent and deserving charities.  There will be one shot for the game.

Don't think this means I don't care.  I'm just not spending money on this today.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 02, 2012, 10:31:56 PM

Sorry I am just frustrated with the Extra Life campaign atm (and then the announcement made my frustration that much worse).


Took 3 hours to raise money for the devs dinner.


In a week we can't even raise that for a charity to help children with cancer etc.


Not only is CMN a GREAT cause, but it also shows that CoH players are people trying to help their local children's hospitals even while facing the end of their virtual world. A great cause with great publicity and it sits stagnate.. that is my frustration :(


I thought for sure the Extra Life campaign would have easily been to $3,000 or higher by now :(


So far my friends that are signed up have either donated to themselves or I donated to them... at this rate I am thinking of just letting the donations stand and not actually doing the campaign. It's quite disheartening actually to think we have a chance to do a lot of good for children, but no one wants to support us.


Sorry for being Debbie Downer...

Can't speak for others, but I was waiting to see my refund from NCsoft posted to my online credit card statement.  It showed up yesterday.  Haven't had time yet to make a donation yet today.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mindscythe on October 02, 2012, 10:32:39 PM
Hm. Falling stock prices.

Nah. As amusing as the thought is, even fallen like that, there's no way this community could simply buy up a share to compare with Nexon's.

Pity.

One has to wonder how much stock is available. If the negotiations have truly fallen through, perhaps an investor or two could buy up enough NCsoft stock to affect their decision-making processes. If someone was willing to do that, of course. Looks like an increasingly shaky investment opportunity from what I've been reading.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: MishaFox on October 02, 2012, 10:32:44 PM
Has Tony had a comment on this?

The good point is that it proves were ARE making ourselves felt. They wouldn't send that message unless we were having an effect.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: pandora114 on October 02, 2012, 10:33:17 PM
*KARPOW*

Hear that?

That's the sound of NCsoft's plan backfiring.  Shut us up? HAH  this just kicked the hornets nest even harder.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 10:33:40 PM
It ain't over till Desdemona dons the mask !
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: JaguarX on October 02, 2012, 10:33:51 PM
Well  I view this as another mere kink in the plan.

Sometimes companies hold to IP for various reasons and it happens a lot often than people realize.

Take Pontiac for example, GM have no plans on bringing that make back to life, or doing anything with it but I bet if another company used the Pontiac emblem in a manner that that GM dont approve or another company slap it onto another vehicle then GM will probably send a lawyer.

This difference is that now we have opportunity to make our own "vehicle" that is not quite the same as the old one but hopefully will entail all the good of COX and maybe even improvements that couldnt be done, havent been done or they just havent gotten around to do.

Dont lose hope my friends, I see an opportunity.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 10:34:48 PM
Has Tony had a comment on this?

The good point is that it proves were ARE making ourselves felt. They wouldn't send that message unless we were having an effect.
No, not yet.  I imagine we'll get a post about it soon though.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Aquashock on October 02, 2012, 10:35:49 PM
And some of us are waiting for our paychecks so we can donate to Extra Life. I'm sorry that those of us who -aren't- getting refunds from NCSoft have to wait a little for extra cash. I'm ever so sorry that I can't say "screw paying for gas this week" and donate right this second for you.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Knightslayer on October 02, 2012, 10:36:12 PM
Sorry I am just frustrated with the Extra Life campaign atm (and then the announcement made my frustration that much worse).


Took 3 hours to raise money for the devs dinner.


In a week we can't even raise that for a charity to help children with cancer etc.


Not only is CMN a GREAT cause, but it also shows that CoH players are people trying to help their local children's hospitals even while facing the end of their virtual world. A great cause with great publicity and it sits stagnate.. that is my frustration :(


I thought for sure the Extra Life campaign would have easily been to $3,000 or higher by now :(


So far my friends that are signed up have either donated to themselves or I donated to them... at this rate I am thinking of just letting the donations stand and not actually doing the campaign. It's quite disheartening actually to think we have a chance to do a lot of good for children, but no one wants to support us.


Sorry for being Debbie Downer...
It seemed off to a good start and then kinda slowed to a stop... =/
Here's to hoping it picks up again.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 10:36:22 PM
Hey, if CoH had a special place in their heart, I wonder where Guild Wars 2 is...

I do care about fellow players you see...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 02, 2012, 10:36:33 PM
You know, I'm wondering: does this mean that talks have fallen through on the timeframe of keeping the game running, or does that mean that talks have fallen through, period?

This could be a half-truth. It could be that there were negotiations to sell the studio promptly so that the lights could stay on after November 30. I don't think any of us were realistically expecting that to happen any more - as Tony V said a couple weeks ago, the servers are going down. The question was, and, until Tony V verifies or debunks this, whether the servers are ever going to come up again.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 02, 2012, 10:37:10 PM
Oh I've been supporting the movement.  Just with this announcement I felt the need to speak up and try to do a little damage control.  They want us to shut up,  and the best way to do that is to just tell us its over.  And most likely yeah,  this will cost us a few people,  especially when it gets out mainstream,  which it will.   But we still have two months to go until lights out,  and even THAT doesn't mark the end.  They haven't exhausted their options.  But they know that no one they are talking to can say anything to the contrary,  so all we have is their word.  Which personally,  I ain't buyin'.

Why can no one say anything to the contrary?  Is the NDA carried forward?  If there is no deal, there should be nothing gagging anyone who was at the table. Bearing in mind that I'm a techy, not a lawyer or business person.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: downix on October 02, 2012, 10:37:21 PM
And some of us are waiting for our paychecks so we can donate to Extra Life. I'm sorry that those of us who -aren't- getting refunds from NCSoft have to wait a little for extra cash. I'm ever so sorry that I can't say "screw paying for gas this week" and donate right this second for you.
*relax*

He's just fustrated, just as we all are. I too am waiting for my paycheck (darn once a month paychecks) to help out.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 10:38:12 PM
And some of us are waiting for our paychecks so we can donate to Extra Life. I'm sorry that those of us who -aren't- getting refunds from NCSoft have to wait a little for extra cash. I'm ever so sorry that I can't say "screw paying for gas this week" and donate right this second for you.
Easy easy easy.  His frustration is understandable, and I don't think he has it out for anyone.  If you're going to donate, that's great.  I really don't think anyone's going to fault you for needing to wait.  It's those who have not and will not donate that are at issue. 
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: no hero on October 02, 2012, 10:39:55 PM
It's not over!
* grits teeth

(https://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/DarkLordOfTheDance/Save%20CoH/ResizedImage_1348648691214.jpg)


(https://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu114/DarkLordOfTheDance/Save%20CoH/2012-09-08_18-21-02_973.jpg)

(first post)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 10:41:19 PM
Why can no one say anything to the contrary?  Is the NDA carried forward?  If there is no deal, there should be nothing gagging anyone who was at the table. Bearing in mind that I'm a techy, not a lawyer or business person.
Some of those at the table, Hitstreak for example, still have their jobs with NCsoft.  I'd imagine that the NDA could be extrapolated to cover negotiations, given it concerns City of Heroes and the decision to shut it down.  I don't know the details (obviously) though.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Knightslayer on October 02, 2012, 10:41:36 PM
(first post)
And another one stands up! Welcome!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Palladiamors on October 02, 2012, 10:41:57 PM
Why can no one say anything to the contrary?  Is the NDA carried forward?  If there is no deal, there should be nothing gagging anyone who was at the table. Bearing in mind that I'm a techy, not a lawyer or business person.

But no one's talking.  Which either means that yes,  negotiations are over and the NDA is carried forward,  or that negotions are still ongoing and the NDA is in full effect.   In the first case,  what they are saying is true.  In the second,  they are just trying to shut us up.  Considering it has only been a month,  I really don't see everything having been exhausted yet.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 02, 2012, 10:43:06 PM
And another one stands up! Welcome!
Indeed, a warm welcome to no hero!

Gee, that sounded... odd.

Anywho, I love your decal.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: SithRose on October 02, 2012, 10:45:17 PM
But no one's talking.  Which either means that yes,  negotiations are over and the NDA is carried forward,  or that negotions are still ongoing and the NDA is in full effect.   In the first case,  what they are saying is true.  In the second,  they are just trying to shut us up.  Considering it has only been a month,  I really don't see everything having been exhausted yet.

I'll point out that a lot of the people on our side have day jobs, and haven't gotten out of work yet. They may not be able to post because they're working on making sure what THEY say is accurate.

NCSoft has a nice big PR firm to write these things for them. We get to write ours all on our own. :) It hasn't even been an hour since the announcement was made.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: V-Mink on October 02, 2012, 10:45:43 PM
No, not yet.  I imagine we'll get a post about it soon though.

A long time ago, in an MMO I shall not name, I was in a party and we were hunting through a desert zone.  I was looking for a rather plain but unique (not raid- or brag-worthy) piece of gear.  After a couple of hours wandering and fighting, the gear dropped, and another person in the party won it.  I asked how much he would be willing to sell it for.  He said to make him an offer.  So I did.  His reply was that if I was willing to pay that, he could get someone else to pay more.

So I do not think NCsoft even set foot at the negotiating table in good faith.  They don't have to; they can simply sit on the franchise and not worry about it and let it be forgotten and deny it to someone else.  Because it makes them more appealing to someone else.  When the time comes to sell NCsoft, that will be amongst its assets.  We certainly are making an effect on them, and I firmly believe this is just a PR stunt to get us to give up.  (It's already started to succeed, as you can see with some posts here.)  Because this has the potential to be a very bad black eye for them.  And if nothing else, if they are holding out for more money for the IP, they may be sorely disappointed.

A coda to the above story, of perhaps caution: Said person put the item it the auction house, at roughly twice what I was willing to pay.  I watched it, but did not bid, and as the hours whiled away, there were no bids for it, until finally the auction simply expired, unsold.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: chasearcanum on October 02, 2012, 10:46:08 PM
This is my reply to NCSoft - They will never see another (https://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd369/IBurntTheToast/UninstallGuildWars2.jpg)penny from me:
So... you're uninstalling Guild Wars, a game you already paid for, thus giving them money for a service that costs them nothing to provide? I say play the hell out of it 24/7 without paying a dime extra.  Consume server resources.

...or were you going to uninstall it, download it again, uninstall it again, etc, etc.... driving up their bandwidth costs? That might work as well... *



* I do not encourage malicious attacks like this- solo, organized, or part of a botnet storm.  As others have said, wait for word from the official parties and stay as positive.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 02, 2012, 10:52:02 PM
Sorry I am just frustrated with the Extra Life campaign atm (and then the announcement made my frustration that much worse).


Took 3 hours to raise money for the devs dinner.


In a week we can't even raise that for a charity to help children with cancer etc.


Not only is CMN a GREAT cause, but it also shows that CoH players are people trying to help their local children's hospitals even while facing the end of their virtual world. A great cause with great publicity and it sits stagnate.. that is my frustration :(


I thought for sure the Extra Life campaign would have easily been to $3,000 or higher by now :(


So far my friends that are signed up have either donated to themselves or I donated to them... at this rate I am thinking of just letting the donations stand and not actually doing the campaign. It's quite disheartening actually to think we have a chance to do a lot of good for children, but no one wants to support us.


Sorry for being Debbie Downer...

Here. You need one of these.

/me hugs Toast
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: NecrotechMaster on October 02, 2012, 10:54:37 PM
i agree that this is standard PR crap to make it look like they are responding to our actions
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Angelus Animi on October 02, 2012, 10:56:40 PM
Stand strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC3tseY-ic0&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC3tseY-ic0&feature=youtu.be)

http://cohtube.blogspot.com.ar/2012/09/save-city-of-heroes_26.html (http://cohtube.blogspot.com.ar/2012/09/save-city-of-heroes_26.html)

http://cohtube.blogspot.com.ar/2012/09/httpwww_30.html (http://cohtube.blogspot.com.ar/2012/09/httpwww_30.html)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Terwyn on October 02, 2012, 10:59:52 PM
i agree that this is standard PR crap to make it look like they are responding to our actions

This is not PR, actually. PR is invariably an active process, one which NCSoft has not at all fully demonstrated even a remote competency with.

Considering that they are only damaging, if not destroying, their own reputation, their best bet is to keep silent, lest they end up hampering themselves further.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Heat Guard on October 02, 2012, 11:00:19 PM
The fight is far from over.  All this is doing is making me ready to fight harder.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 02, 2012, 11:02:19 PM

No I uninstalled it because I have no intentions of playing it.
Sure they got my money for the game, but they will never see any money from me on their micro-transactions which I tend to spend a lot of (Well I did in CoH anyways). And as well all know after the initial boom of box sales...micro transactions are what will be supplying GW2 with a lot of it's revenue.


I know I am just one person, but this one person will not be feeding the MMO Killer that is NCSoft.
 

So... you're uninstalling Guild Wars, a game you already paid for, thus giving them money for a service that costs them nothing to provide? I say play the hell out of it 24/7 without paying a dime extra.  Consume server resources.

...or were you going to uninstall it, download it again, uninstall it again, etc, etc.... driving up their bandwidth costs? That might work as well... *



* I do not encourage malicious attacks like this- solo, organized, or part of a botnet storm.  As others have said, wait for word from the official parties and stay as positive.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mister Bison on October 02, 2012, 11:05:18 PM
No I uninstalled it because I have no intentions of playing it.
Sure they got my money for the game, but they will never see any money from me on their micro-transactions which I tend to spend a lot of (Well I did in CoH anyways). And as well all know after the initial boom of box sales...micro transactions are what will be supplying GW2 with a lot of it's revenue.

I know I am just one person, but this one person will not be feeding the MMO Killer that is NCSoft.
The greastest taunt you could show them is playing the hell of GW2 while not giving in the micro transaction. That's will not expand the turnover, but will surely up the expanses.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: MishaFox on October 02, 2012, 11:06:32 PM
This really stinks. How can a company be so callus and uncaring about a game that has been running so long? The whole shut down from the first announcement stinks badly of being poorly managed and without a thought about the players feelings.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Artillerie on October 02, 2012, 11:10:22 PM
Hello all, this is my forst post. I also see this statement as a piece of misinformation to dishearten us all and think becoming a member of this community is a good way of sending a message back.

I will be fighting on, i look forward to hearing more news soon.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: gypsyav on October 02, 2012, 11:13:26 PM
So... you're uninstalling Guild Wars, a game you already paid for, thus giving them money for a service that costs them nothing to provide? I say play the hell out of it 24/7 without paying a dime extra.  Consume server resources.

This is my thoughts on it. If you've already bought it, play it. Don't give them your money for nothing. Buying anything additional from them on the other hand is a different story. The more people they have playing without buying from the in game store the better. 
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: downix on October 02, 2012, 11:17:11 PM
This really stinks. How can a company be so callus and uncaring about a game that has been running so long? The whole shut down from the first announcement stinks badly of being poorly managed and without a thought about the players feelings.
A corporation has no feelings, so it can only be callus. That being said, the decisions make no sense from a business perspective. They are in effect throwing money away, due to some non-corporate ideology. This is not good for their stockholders.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Luna Eclypse on October 02, 2012, 11:37:26 PM
A corporation has no feelings, so it can only be callus. That being said, the decisions make no sense from a business perspective. They are in effect throwing money away, due to some non-corporate ideology. This is not good for their stockholders.

NCsoft is good at throwing money away, in fact, that's about all they're good at. Perhaps we should appeal to their stockholders then?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Knightslayer on October 02, 2012, 11:38:34 PM
NCsoft is good at throwing money away, in fact, that's about all they're good at. Perhaps we should appeal to their stockholders then?
That was one of the things that crossed my mind as well.
A possible future course for when it's deemed necessary?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Soundtrack on October 02, 2012, 11:51:19 PM
Have we heard anything from Brian Clayton? (Not just on this topic, but ANYTHING?)

I know that tone sounds sarcastic, but please know it isn't meant to be. I'm just curious if anybody could provide a link to the forums here where Brian has said something, as I'd be curious to read it. :)

Again...no sarcasm. I do hope Brian will chime in on this latest "news", but I'm also curious if he has said anything that I could read while I wait. :)

Thanks for any links!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Copper Cockroach on October 02, 2012, 11:52:59 PM
This is my thoughts on it. If you've already bought it, play it. Don't give them your money for nothing. Buying anything additional from them on the other hand is a different story. The more people they have playing without buying from the in game store the better.

I can respect Burnt Toast's decision here... the product is tainted by association. It doesn't matter how much fun it is to play, or how beautiful the visuals are, or how much you feel you're ripping them off by not using their cash shop... it's an NCsoft product. NOT an ArenaNet product... NCsoft. 'Nuff said.

To make a bad analogy, think of Gary Glitter. In the early 70s he made music that was brilliant, innovative, and influential, and still is, 40 years later. And then he had to go and get into his, uh... "extra-curricular activities". Doesn't matter now how brilliant he was Back In The Day, doesn't matter that the music was recorded long before he got into his, uh... "extra-curricular activities"; he's damaged goods, FOREVER. When "Rock 'n Roll Part II" comes on the radio (if you can find a station that will still play it) it's cringe-inducing.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 02, 2012, 11:54:07 PM
The last I heard was that VV expected to hear from him on Sunday. If she posted something, I missed it.  Not hearing from her since this tells me that she's either where she can't access internet or trying to get something that she can tell us.  Tony has spoken positively, as expected, but he still appears to be trying to find out more.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Copper Cockroach on October 02, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Have we heard anything from Brian Clayton? (Not just on this topic, but ANYTHING?)

Is there even really a Brian Clayton? I keep hearing about this guy but I've never seen a direct statement from him, or even a photo. He's like the Keyser Soze of online gaming.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 03, 2012, 12:01:57 AM
Is there even really a Brian Clayton? I keep hearing about this guy but I've never seen a direct statement from him, or even a photo. He's like the Keyser Soze of online gaming.
Haha, seriously.  I believe he is/was the general manager of Paragon Studios.

Mercedes Lackey (Victoria Victrix) has been in steady communication with him.  I think Tony as well, but I am unsure.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 12:03:08 AM
Is there even really a Brian Clayton? I keep hearing about this guy but I've never seen a direct statement from him, or even a photo. He's like the Keyser Soze of online gaming.

Ha1  I loves me a good Usual Suspects reference!  +2 Internets to you!  :)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Heliphyneau on October 03, 2012, 12:06:57 AM
They do something like this whenever we're all fiesty. We were starting to flag a little and then Tim's video got us all fired up again (and we were all 'YAY LETS FIGHT GUYS'), and they announced the refunds and the sunset schedule of events and everyone was all like '..oh. Doooom.'

Now we're all Fansied up and getting a bunch of new interest and they've issued this.

Exactly -- they're trying to debuff us!   >:(  Pop some purples and let's go!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 12:07:58 AM
*rise to the challenge*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 12:09:09 AM
*rise to the challenge*

/me pounds chest, activating Integrated Healing
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Knightslayer on October 03, 2012, 12:14:47 AM
Is there even really a Brian Clayton? I keep hearing about this guy but I've never seen a direct statement from him, or even a photo. He's like the Keyser Soze of online gaming.
Does that mean we'll eventually discover Tony IS Brian? :P
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 03, 2012, 12:15:54 AM
Does that mean we'll eventually discover Tony IS Brian? :P

That's just silly. One wears glasses. The other doesn't.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 12:17:19 AM
That's just silly. One wears glasses. The other doesn't.

Yeah, but I've never seen Brian and Tony in the same room...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Aggelakis on October 03, 2012, 12:18:43 AM
Heck we can't even get people to donate to the Extra Life Campaign which is sitting at less than $1,000 now after a week hehe.
I want to point out that I had already donated to a separate Extra Life campaign before anyone set up the City one. And I cannot afford to donate to more than one at the level at which I donated. I'm pretty sure there are many more like me who already had their donation funds set aside for something else well before this was announced.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Heliphyneau on October 03, 2012, 12:30:54 AM
*rise to the challenge*

*SBs everyone*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Heliphyneau on October 03, 2012, 12:31:33 AM
/me pounds chest, activating Integrated Healing

*activates Clarion*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: SithRose on October 03, 2012, 12:34:41 AM
*activates Clarion*

*readies Fulcrum Shift*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Teege on October 03, 2012, 12:36:01 AM
*summons Image of the Well pet*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: pandora114 on October 03, 2012, 12:37:57 AM
*puts Pepsiman in bag*

*Readies Pepsiman down NCsoft Exec's back move*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Tahliah on October 03, 2012, 12:43:26 AM
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Copper Cockroach on October 03, 2012, 12:50:47 AM
/me pounds chest, activating Integrated Healing

*Copper Cockroach flips bird in general direction of NCsoft, gathers ENTIRE COMMUNITY, hits Accelerated Metabolism*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: voodoogirl on October 03, 2012, 01:00:23 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=static.someecards.com%2Fsomeecards%2Fusercards%2FMjAxMi05N2RiYWE3YjYzZDI2OTFi.png)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Luna Eclypse on October 03, 2012, 01:15:17 AM
That part about "ensuring its reputation and the memories we share" sounds like they don't want to sell the studio or rights.  The game's reputation is stellar, as is Paragon's, it's NCsoft's reputation that is taking a beating because of this.  And they know it.  And "end on a high note"?!?  THIS is a high note?  No way they believe that or think that; as others noted, it sounds like this is supposed to quiet us.  Keep fighting the good fight; this will not daunt me in the slightest.

#SaveCOH

It's not a high note. They curb stomped us and the developers, stabbed us in the gut, and left us to bleed to death on the pavement. They missed the part where Superheroes don't go out this way.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Kosmos on October 03, 2012, 01:18:53 AM
This is my thoughts on it. If you've already bought it, play it. Don't give them your money for nothing. Buying anything additional from them on the other hand is a different story. The more people they have playing without buying from the in game store the better.

I disagree. CoH players should know better than any the value of the MMO's community. So unless you're prepared to be a rotten apple in their barrel, you are adding value to their game simply by playing it.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Turjan on October 03, 2012, 01:24:56 AM
Quote
City of Heroes has a special place in all of our hearts, and we want to ensure its reputation and the memories we share for the game end on a high note.

Sure, we can do that. We can ensure the GAME'S REPUTATION ends on a high note. But we certainly don't share the same MEMORIES of the game as NCSoft do. If they shared our memories they wouldn't be closing the game in the first place.

I have the greatest respect for the game, and as the Russians say, "If we have to die, let us die with music". CoH deserves that 'high note'.
However, I have no respect for the company. Haven't had since they killed Tabula Rasa before my eyes.

So if NCSoft want us to ensure that their memories end on a high note? Nope, sorry - I'm afraid that I cannot ensure.

Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Terwyn on October 03, 2012, 01:27:59 AM
Sure, we can do that. We can ensure the GAME'S REPUTATION ends on a high note. But we certainly don't share the same MEMORIES of the game as NCSoft do. If they shared our memories they wouldn't be closing the game in the first place.

I have the greatest respect for the game, and as the Russians say, "If we have to die, let us die with music". CoH deserves that 'high note'.
However, I have no respect for the company. Haven't had since they killed Tabula Rasa before my eyes.

So if NCSoft want us to ensure that their memories end on a high note? Nope, sorry - I'm afraid that I cannot ensure.

I have every intention of ensuring precisely the opposite, myself. Having some experience with the more... ruthless... aspects of investment, I'm considering it an option when I have the means to support that initiative.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 01:30:17 AM
Brian Clayton (PICTURE in ThorsAssassin's blog post about the dev dinner) is the studio manager of Formerly-Known-As Paragon.  I have generally heard from him on Sunday night.  I did not hear from him this Sunday, so I have nothing to tell you.

This, from my husband Larry Dixon however:

Larry Dixon: *shrug*  It's as "real" as anything else NCsoft says or does.  That'll flip if they want it to. What it *is* is an admission that they've noticed enough to respond to it "on company letterhead." Its face value is meaningless.

The REAL takeaway from this is "Hey this is starting to hurt, stop it guys!"  If the revival efforts meant nothing, NCsoft would not post what amounts to "Elvis has left the building."  And that is all that is. They want the negative attention to stop. That is an official attempt at deflection.  Or, in political terms, an "Un-Answer."

It appears to be a response but actually accomplishes nothing except silence those who weren't very into it.  Like I say, what it says is irrelevant; the thing to take notice of is that it was put there at all.  And that means time to step it up because the other fighter just staggered.

If the "Save CoH/We love Paragon" etc. efforts were ineffective, we'd never have seen such a statement. The hidden meaning of that note is that it has dawned on somebody that this is developing into "anti-NCsoft," not "Save-CoH," so they issued a mollifying statement with a lot of buttonpushing feel-warm cozy buttons about how special what they just murdered was to them.

Now they reap the mistrust they sowed, they can see the coverage increase, the caution against them and the players taking their money away in droves, and we can look them steely in the eyes and reply "Too bad.  It's just business.  Isn't it."

The "exhausted all options" is bizspeak for "We didn't get what we wanted, so we stopped bothering to find solutions."  Businesspeople who truly WANT a result  ALWAYS find a way, they never "exhaust all options." So right there is an admission from NCsoft that they're very bad businesspeople.  Most certainly unimaginative and inflexible.

Shortest form: As a strategist, the hits are being felt by NCsoft, and they've barely begun.

Second message: This is the murderer issuing an official statement that they "really tried hard" not kill what they had a choice about murdering, and hoping that "Oh they loved it like I did, they're really sorry!" should be your takeaway from that and that should make EVERYTHING just fine, right?

I don't take "We loved it too!" as anything but an insult to our intelligence.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Terwyn on October 03, 2012, 01:36:27 AM
I would avoid a discussion of the psychology of serial killers, but... there are some rather disturbing parallels that could be drawn to NC Soft....
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: HEATSTROKE on October 03, 2012, 01:36:44 AM
 Im an old school NY'er who grew up between two tough neighborhoods and one summer had to fight every day on my way home just to get into my building where I lived..

 I know a punk move when i see one.. THIS is a punk move..
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Flamazing Sally on October 03, 2012, 01:42:09 AM
Once again, VV has it correct.  NCsoft wants us to stop.  And, if NCsoft wants us to be silent, then we need to make more noise. 

Has anyone noticed that this newest message from NCsoft is NOT on the CoH website?  Apparently, they know where the noise is coming from.   

Our work here is just beginning.  I'm sending out a new round of letters and emails.  I think Nexon needs some of the 'luv' too.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 01:42:33 AM
And it's nothing compared to some other punk moves (http://massively.joystiq.com/2009/05/06/richard-garriott-blasts-ncsoft-with-24-million-lawsuit/) they've tried. As yet, at least this one isn't actionable.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 01:45:32 AM
Actually that is entirely correct. 

Remember.  This is the company that thought NOTHING of forging a letter of resignation/farewell/withdrawal.  Who seemed to think that forgery was a perfectly reasonable business practice.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Luna Eclypse on October 03, 2012, 01:50:49 AM
Speaking of Richard Garriott, anyone ever think to try and contact him for support?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Golden Girl on October 03, 2012, 01:54:57 AM
Maybe we should mention the whole forgred letter and lawsuit thing in passing a bit more? Just to help bring up the kind of company we're dealing with.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 01:56:57 AM
What, you mean like tweeting, "Hey, did you hear about NCSoft forging Lord British' resignation letter? #MMOKiller"

That wouldn't be classy...   ;D
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 01:59:28 AM
Speaking of Richard Garriott, anyone ever think to try and contact him for support?

I have a couple of better-than-acquaintance-not-quite-good-friends of Garriott trying to get some time to talk to him about this.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 02:00:31 AM
I have a couple of better-than-acquaintance-not-quite-good-friends of Garriott trying to get some time to talk to him about this.

Rock on, ma'am. Rock on.

/em salute
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: johnrobey on October 03, 2012, 02:03:10 AM
Thank you, Larry and Misty, for what I'm quoting, below.  I concur with this assessment.   Here's hoping our Community prevails!!!!

Brian Clayton (PICTURE in ThorsAssassin's blog post about the dev dinner) is the studio manager of Formerly-Known-As Paragon.  I have generally heard from him on Sunday night.  I did not hear from him this Sunday, so I have nothing to tell you.

This, from my husband Larry Dixon however:

Larry Dixon: *shrug*  It's as "real" as anything else NCsoft says or does.  That'll flip if they want it to. What it *is* is an admission that they've noticed enough to respond to it "on company letterhead." Its face value is meaningless.

The REAL takeaway from this is "Hey this is starting to hurt, stop it guys!"  If the revival efforts meant nothing, NCsoft would not post what amounts to "Elvis has left the building."  And that is all that is. They want the negative attention to stop. That is an official attempt at deflection.  Or, in political terms, an "Un-Answer."

It appears to be a response but actually accomplishes nothing except silence those who weren't very into it.  Like I say, what it says is irrelevant; the thing to take notice of is that it was put there at all.  And that means time to step it up because the other fighter just staggered.

If the "Save CoH/We love Paragon" etc. efforts were ineffective, we'd never have seen such a statement. The hidden meaning of that note is that it has dawned on somebody that this is developing into "anti-NCsoft," not "Save-CoH," so they issued a mollifying statement with a lot of buttonpushing feel-warm cozy buttons about how special what they just murdered was to them.

Now they reap the mistrust they sowed, they can see the coverage increase, the caution against them and the players taking their money away in droves, and we can look them steely in the eyes and reply "Too bad.  It's just business.  Isn't it."

The "exhausted all options" is bizspeak for "We didn't get what we wanted, so we stopped bothering to find solutions."  Businesspeople who truly WANT a result  ALWAYS find a way, they never "exhaust all options." So right there is an admission from NCsoft that they're very bad businesspeople.  Most certainly unimaginative and inflexible.

Shortest form: As a strategist, the hits are being felt by NCsoft, and they've barely begun.

Second message: This is the murderer issuing an official statement that they "really tried hard" not kill what they had a choice about murdering, and hoping that "Oh they loved it like I did, they're really sorry!" should be your takeaway from that and that should make EVERYTHING just fine, right?

I don't take "We loved it too!" as anything but an insult to our intelligence.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mr. Wentworth on October 03, 2012, 02:04:22 AM
...

I don't take "We loved it too!" as anything but an insult to our intelligence.

I love Larry! Please let him know. :D I was feeling the same way about this latest NCsoft statement and he expressed it very well. We should all look at this in just such a way. Don't grow despondent and think it is over. They are admitting that our punches hurt! Keep them on the ropes!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Golden Girl on October 03, 2012, 02:06:03 AM
By the way, the #MMOKiller tag should really be #GameKiller - it carries more weight with non-gamers who mightn't know what MMO meant.
Game = fun/entertainemnt, so adding "Killer" to that makes for a much clearer message - NCSoft kills fun.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Turjan on October 03, 2012, 02:14:14 AM
By the way, the #MMOKiller tag should really be #GameKiller - it carries more weight with non-gamers who mightn't know what MMO meant.
Game = fun/entertainemnt, so adding "Killer" to that makes for a much clearer message - NCSoft kills fun.
A valid point - especially as I've seen the actual phrase "MMO Killer" used in the past to refer to a (usually overhyped) game as being a potential Warcraft killer

However, I suspect it may be too late to try and cram that particular meme genie back in its bottle. Wouldn't hurt to have both though, even running them parallel for both the MMO audience and those outside.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 02:16:19 AM
By the way, the #MMOKiller tag should really be #GameKiller - it carries mroe weirght with non-gamers who mightn't know what MMO meant.
Game = fun/entertainemnt, so adding "Killer" to that makes for a much clearer message - NCSoft kills fun.

Well put, let's see if we can get the dog to hunt.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Luna Eclypse on October 03, 2012, 02:21:11 AM
Whoops, I've already been using #MMOkiller but I've made sure the context was correct in my Tweets. I'll switch to #GameKiller if that's the general consensus.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 02:28:03 AM
By the way, the #MMOKiller tag should really be #GameKiller - it carries more weirght with non-gamers who mightn't know what MMO meant.
Game = fun/entertainment, so adding "Killer" to that makes for a much clearer message - NCSoft kills fun.
Nice. I'm willing to give it a shot.  I've been staying away from Twitter, because I normally stay away from Twitter. I'm looking at changing that.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: CrimsonCapacitor on October 03, 2012, 02:33:14 AM
By the way, the #MMOKiller tag should really be #GameKiller - it carries more weirght with non-gamers who mightn't know what MMO meant.
Game = fun/entertainemnt, so adding "Killer" to that makes for a much clearer message - NCSoft kills fun.

I believe this is my first post.  Yeah, delurking, yadda.

Removing the ammo then, so no one gets any ideas.   ;)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 02:36:10 AM
I advice #GameKiller, but not #Anti-NCSoft. The second one makes us look kinda like whining kids throwing hate directly at a group, because the tag calls them out -by- -name-. #GameKiller is a little less direct. Less aggressive.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Luna Eclypse on October 03, 2012, 02:40:12 AM
I advice #GameKiller, but not #Anti-NCSoft. The second one makes us look kinda like whining kids throwing hate directly at a group, because the tag calls them out -by- -name-. #GameKiller is a little less direct. Less aggressive.

I can mud sling with the best of them but even I wouldn't use #Anti-NCSoft.  Kill'em with facts, bring up the Garriott lawsuit, reiterate all the MMO's they've killed, remind the GW2 people who their developer's publisher is and what BS they've pulled in the past.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Viridian Surge on October 03, 2012, 02:41:29 AM
When they use the the word exhausted in their response, my first thought is too bad we can't send them some Enriche energy drink.  So that they will feel refreshed and get back to the negotiating table  8)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 02:46:36 AM
No one is saying we create an anti-NCSoft hashtag. Now, if we mention NCSoft in a Tweet using a hashtag that suggests that they are less than nurturing to their stable of games...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 02:52:05 AM
I think we can all conclude that this is the official NCSoft spokes-creature.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net%2F80450F%2F983thesnake.com%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F01%2FPants-On-Fire-Mike-Licht-NotionsCapitalDOTcom-Flickr.jpg)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 02:54:13 AM
I think we can all conclude that this is the official NCSoft spokes-creature.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net%2F80450F%2F983thesnake.com%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F01%2FPants-On-Fire-Mike-Licht-NotionsCapitalDOTcom-Flickr.jpg)

...excuse me, sir, you seem to have a litttle. Uh. Something. There. On your pants. Yeah.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 02:55:25 AM
Yeah, sorry. I got "fire in the belly," which would be more appropriate to us, but now I get it.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: unladenswallow on October 03, 2012, 02:55:36 AM
http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.html

To summarize:

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=theintelhub.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F05%2FNuke-Ocean-2.png)

Honesty, or another teargas attempt to quiet the rioters?

Yes this appears to be their large wooden rabbit. Time to man the catapults and throw it back at them and force them to build a large wooden badger...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 02:58:42 AM
And here is the NCSoft "Negotiator"

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=pmwr74.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fliar-liar-pants-on-fire.jpg)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Battle Ant on October 03, 2012, 03:19:15 AM
This is my reply to NCSoft - They will never see another (https://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd369/IBurntTheToast/UninstallGuildWars2.jpg)penny from me:

I like this. At some point and time it would be nice to have people who own other NCSoft products take a similar screenshots of them uninstalling their games. It could make quite and impact. Send those screenshots to NCSoft with a polite caption such as NO THANKS or something to that nature. That would get their attention.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Colette on October 03, 2012, 03:22:11 AM
Okay... I believe NC-Soft's behavior can officially be described as "scandalous." In my experience, however "big" they are, entertainers never truly recover from scandal, whether their name is Michael, Arnold or Woody.

We've been nice-nice so far. I suggest it's time to get serious and jeopardize some livelihoods.

Nothing convinces like the truth. The question is which truths will be told, and who can tell then loudly enough? The truth is... NC-Soft sold us goods in bad faith, failed even to consider less draconian options like consolidating servers and cutting costs, disposed of their western customers like old garbage, and shut down the game without proper notice or demonstrable need. This on top of a history of forgery, double-dealing and"game-killing."

NC-Soft is already finished here in the English-speaking world. There are too many people saying "I hate you!" for them ever to feel welcome again. I suggest the next step is to translate our displeasure into Korean and get it onto the appropriate message boards there. When we start costing them won instead of dollars, then they will feel the pressure.

It won't save CoH, but it will teach other game companies how and how not to treat their customers. A pyrrhic victory is better than abject defeat.

Besides, who else will we beat up on when the Freakshow are gone?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 03:24:19 AM
I've said before: it may be less important whether we win, but whether they do.  I'm not there, yet, but it is possible for us to lose and still beat them.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 03, 2012, 03:24:28 AM
Yes this appears to be their large wooden rabbit. Time to man the catapults and throw it back at them and force them to build a large wooden badger...

... I'll get the cows.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 03, 2012, 03:29:56 AM

We've been nice-nice so far. I suggest it's time to get serious and jeopardize some livelihoods.


I agree, however instead of massive boycott of NcSoft, let's just go to their biggest competitor and (in the memory of 3's company) buy 1 or 2 of their projects. Money seems to be the key issue here, so lets talk with our wallets.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: johnrobey on October 03, 2012, 03:31:12 AM
Just FYI, here's what I posted to my guildportal SGmates:  NCSoft had the affrontry to post this pile of PR BS today:  http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.html

Which Jessie, the redname Assistant Community Manager for Paragon Studios posted to the official forums here:  http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297822  (My reply to this is on page 7 of this thread.)

See also, what Larry Dixon (Mercedes Lackey's husband) had to say (as posted by Ms. Lackey as Victoria Victrix) on Titan Network forums:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5434.msg57520.html#msg57520

See also, what TonyV had to say:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5437.0.html

My gravest concern is that CoH would be worth more to NCSoft dead than alive, but provided that's not the case, then I think there's still hope.  What makes this difficult for me is all the speculation (some quite plausible, especially from forum posts by people with relevant financial expertise) combined with the lack of data of what's actually been attempted/what it would take to get NCSoft to sell.  However, I'm convinced that we do best to support CoH/Paragon Studios by continuing to play CoH, to participate some on both the official and Titan Network forums, and by remaining positive, upbeat, courteous and professional while NOT BACKING DOWN.

At minimum, we've made enough noise that NCSoft PR is trying to get the CoH Communtiy to shut up, so they  can go forward with killing and burying City of Heroes (by not licensing/selling the IP) without generating a LOT of negative publicity for NCSoft.  Ha!!  They've now earned that in spades, and are about to reap a TON more, as TonyV and others intend to Pump Up the Volume (but only in ways that reflect well on the game/community) while still angling to negotiate for the IP and reboot of Paragon Studios and our dev team.  [End quote]

I hope that's a fair and accurate assessment of the current situation.  Now, I'm gonna log in and play some CoH!!!  :D
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: eabrace on October 03, 2012, 03:44:29 AM
Speaking of Richard Garriott, anyone ever think to try and contact him for support?
I may have very, very quietly suggested that he should be consulted on how best to deal with NCsoft since he has experience with this sort of thing.  I may have also suggested that we shouldn't mention having contacted him if we did given the fact that NCsoft might immediately slam the door.  :)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 03:47:15 AM
I may have very, very quietly suggested that he should be consulted on how best to deal with NCsoft since he has experience with this sort of thing.  I may have also suggested that we shouldn't mention having contacted him if we did given the fact that NCsoft might immediately slam the door.  :)

I was actually looking for this, but I gave up after going three pages worth of threads from the last page.  Any advice he gives should be kept nameless.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: eabrace on October 03, 2012, 03:56:59 AM
I was actually looking for this, but I gave up after going three pages worth of threads from the last page.  Any advice he gives should be kept nameless.
You won't find it.  I didn't make the suggestion out in the open.  :)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: chasearcanum on October 03, 2012, 04:03:30 AM
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Eldershinjo on October 03, 2012, 04:12:57 AM
To everyone that is saying we should boycott NCsoft...
Honestly, that would be your choice... and I would not begrudge you that.
However, I already have Guild Wars 2. I have played it. Its a very good game that has finally filled my desire for a fantasy MMO that didn't feel as grindy as Aion or as childish as WoW (probably more thanks to their gaming communities...)

When the announcement came that NCsoft was killing CoH, my first, gut reaction was to uninstall GW2, throw a big middle-finger at NCsoft, give up on online gaming...

But then, a friend of mine showed me this... (warning, the language is NSFW, but I believe that the message being said here must be heard by more people...)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6187-Why-Boycotts-Fail-Where-Whining-Tantrums-Win


Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 04:28:18 AM
Kind of unrelated, Yahtzee (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/6337-Guild-Wars-2) reviews GW2.

I love this guy...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 03, 2012, 04:30:47 AM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6187-Why-Boycotts-Fail-Where-Whining-Tantrums-Win

I do kinda feel that NC is on the verge of pulling an EA-level blunder. And EA wasn't lost for customers when their stocks took a nosedive either. But they still earned that "worst company of 2011" award.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 03, 2012, 04:41:17 AM

I am not boycotting them... just not buying anything else they produce. I cannot support a company that has done what they have in the past month. My not buying is not an act of protest it is an act of self preservation. I will not give another NCSoft title the time and money I have CoH; because I do not like the way they treated me as a customer. When a company treats you badly; as a customer you have the choice of not supporting that company any more and not having it labeled as a boycott...it is just a personal decision not to be treated like crap again. No rallying cried for others to not buy NCSoft products; that's a personal decision...one which I have made for myself.







To everyone that is saying we should boycott NCsoft...
Honestly, that would be your choice... and I would not begrudge you that.
However, I already have Guild Wars 2. I have played it. Its a very good game that has finally filled my desire for a fantasy MMO that didn't feel as grindy as Aion or as childish as WoW (probably more thanks to their gaming communities...)

When the announcement came that NCsoft was killing CoH, my first, gut reaction was to uninstall GW2, throw a big middle-finger at NCsoft, give up on online gaming...

But then, a friend of mine showed me this... (warning, the language is NSFW, but I believe that the message being said here must be heard by more people...)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6187-Why-Boycotts-Fail-Where-Whining-Tantrums-Win (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6187-Why-Boycotts-Fail-Where-Whining-Tantrums-Win)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 04:42:21 AM
I do kinda feel that NC is on the verge of pulling an EA-level blunder. And EA wasn't lost for customers when their stocks took a nosedive either. But they still earned that "worst company of 2011" award.

And, who determines this "winner?"

<twirls mustache>
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Blitzwing on October 03, 2012, 04:52:28 AM
Do not mistake this for the end, my friends.  There is no way NCsoft has exhausted everything they can do.  That's a bold-faced lie.  However, we still don't know exactly what it means.  I take it to mean one of a couple things:

1) The current negotiations have fallen through.  This does not mean that future negotiations are doomed to fail, however.

2) They've exhausted ideas that they are willing to entertain.  In other words, we need to make them willing to entertain more drastic or difficult measures.

3) They're really, really desperate to get us to back off.  This has more of a conspiracy theory air to it, but it's a possibility considering we've forced multiple blinks.

However, until we know more (probably from Hitstreak or Mr. Clayton) this is all speculation.  But the take home message is:   WE ARE NOT BEATEN YET

Love you guys, we'll get through it.

I'm guessing option #3...they've likely gone into panic mode, not anticipating the entirely negative reactions they've been getting...and they now know just how big a hornet's nest they've stirred up....  :D
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: darkquill on October 03, 2012, 05:45:36 AM
That is great, Eldershinjo. He's absolutely right. We'll get further by doing more bitching and whining than we will by just 'not buying things.'  Now to go think about how to bitch and whine in the most PR-inconvenient way for NCSoft possible. . .

But then, a friend of mine showed me this... (warning, the language is NSFW, but I believe that the message being said here must be heard by more people...)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6187-Why-Boycotts-Fail-Where-Whining-Tantrums-Win
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 05:49:37 AM
Well here is something that occurred to me.  It will take some research....but in most cultures there is a token, an object or something of the sort, that indicates that you have committed an act of such shame and cowardice that you really should consider going home and drowning yourself.  In the West it is a white feather--white feathers were given to young men in WWI who did not enlist, very often by young women.  I am sure there is something similar in Korean culture.

Now imagine dozens, hundreds of such tokens sent to NCSoft...attached to "save CoH" cards.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Teege on October 03, 2012, 05:55:42 AM
I found this on the 1up website while searching around in Google. While it's a blog they do have an Articles section... has anybody been in touch with any editors there?

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9114174
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 05:59:52 AM
Well here is something that occurred to me.  It will take some research....but in most cultures there is a token, an object or something of the sort, that indicates that you have committed an act of such shame and cowardice that you really should consider going home and drowning yourself.  In the West it is a white feather--white feathers were given to young men in WWI who did not enlist, very often by young women.  I am sure there is something similar in Korean culture.

Now imagine dozens, hundreds of such tokens sent to NCSoft...attached to "save CoH" cards.


This. Do we got any Asian culture specialists in the house? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 06:06:02 AM
It's not quite as general as that, and it may be something that could seriously backfire.  It's very late for me, so lemme revisit this in the morning and report back. (caviat: NOT an expert, just done a lot of research into early 20th century Asian history.)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Eldershinjo on October 03, 2012, 06:09:05 AM
That is great, Eldershinjo. He's absolutely right. We'll get further by doing more bitching and whining than we will by just 'not buying things.'  Now to go think about how to bitch and whine in the most PR-inconvenient way for NCSoft possible. . .

I'll assume you are actually serious here and go with this...
We /have/ been 'bitching and whining' in our own way... Namely by following TonyV and loudly showing our support for the game and the Developers.
the fact that they took the time to write us that BS letter saying 'We loved the game' and 'We exhausted our options' shows that they have heard us. Now, we must continue to be vocal and keep giving them a headache from all our 'Bitching and whining.'

Shouldn't be too hard for some people, I heard enough of it when the game was running alive and well...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 06:14:03 AM
It's not quite as general as that, and it may be something that could seriously backfire.  It's very late for me, so lemme revisit this in the morning and report back. (caviat: NOT an expert, just done a lot of research into early 20th century Asian history.)

Anyone know anyone at Chicago's Oriental Institute?  Or just in Chicago?  They are usually really good at answering questions like this over the phone.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Teege on October 03, 2012, 06:16:18 AM
Well here is something you -can- do: Let Mr. Kim know he needs to update his message.

Taken from the NCSOFT website (About Us > CEO Message):

Quote
It all started in 1998 with Lineage. We delighted Lineage players with a harmony of great story, breathtaking visuals, and fantastic sound design. Back then, we set out to create a ground-breaking and totally engaging customer experience. That is still our objective.

Today we continue that commitment to quality and innovation. Just over a decade after our founding, we are a global presence in games. We constantly push the boundaries of game design, technology, and services. So not that long ago we were a new upstart competitor. But today with great games like Aion, City of Heroes, and Guild Wars under our belt, we now set the standard for the industry.

Moving forward, we envision new ways to use Internet technologies to entertain, delight, and bring people together. This means new products, reaching more customers, around the world. The future is bright, indeed. We hope you have enjoyed playing our games. We thank you for your support as we innovate and grow. Thank you.

Taek Jin Kim
Chief Executive Officer NCSOFT Corporation

Emphasis mine (areas he should edit... well, should probably just rewrite the whole damn thing).
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 03, 2012, 06:23:42 AM
Anyone know anyone at Chicago's Oriental Institute?  Or just in Chicago?  They are usually really good at answering questions like this over the phone.
So the accuracy on this might be a little shaky... but I have reason to believe it relatively truthful. 

My boyfriend is a Japanese Studies minor who recently learned about what gifts to give to your Japanese friend when going over to their house.  Conversely, what not to give.  Knives and scissors, and anything sharp, are a HUGE no-no because they signify "cutting off the relationship".  Similarly, you do not give gifts in sets of four (because apparently that denotes death).

Japan is NOT Korea, obviously.  I am not grouping two separate Asian cultures together.  However, a comprehensive Google search reveals that many of these things (read: all the ones I listed) are in fact the same in South Korean culture.  So I have reason to believe that my search-fu denotes at least some truth, given the information my boyfriend received came from someone who is from Japan and the stuff I found matches his lesson almost word-for-word.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 03, 2012, 06:28:05 AM
Now you've got me thinking of the "Ribbons of Shame" scene from Gung Ho.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: darkquill on October 03, 2012, 06:43:53 AM
I'll assume you are actually serious here and go with this...
We /have/ been 'bitching and whining' in our own way... Namely by following TonyV and loudly showing our support for the game and the Developers.
the fact that they took the time to write us that BS letter saying 'We loved the game' and 'We exhausted our options' shows that they have heard us. Now, we must continue to be vocal and keep giving them a headache from all our 'Bitching and whining.'

Shouldn't be too hard for some people, I heard enough of it when the game was running alive and well...

Yes, I was totally serious. That video really pumped me up! (I can see your confusion though. People don't usually call themselves whiners. . . but since the video made a point of that actually working, I went with it!)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Dollhouse on October 03, 2012, 07:13:40 AM
So the accuracy on this might be a little shaky... but I have reason to believe it relatively truthful. 

My boyfriend is a Japanese Studies minor who recently learned about what gifts to give to your Japanese friend when going over to their house.  Conversely, what not to give.  Knives and scissors, and anything sharp, are a HUGE no-no because they signify "cutting off the relationship".  Similarly, you do not give gifts in sets of four (because apparently that denotes death).

Japan is NOT Korea, obviously.  I am not grouping two separate Asian cultures together.  However, a comprehensive Google search reveals that many of these things (read: all the ones I listed) are in fact the same in South Korean culture.  So I have reason to believe that my search-fu denotes at least some truth, given the information my boyfriend received came from someone who is from Japan and the stuff I found matches his lesson almost word-for-word.

Sets of four are indeed inauspicious in Korean culture as well, as are messages delivered in red ink or print (red characters are associated with death and funerals). Business cards carry far greater importance in Korean business culture than they do in the west, and it is most polite to present them (and accept them) with both hands. The right hand is acceptable, but shows less respect. To use the left hand, particularly when not turning to fully face the other party, is considered flippant and downright rude.

Sooooo...if we have some skilled amateur artists (and no, I'm not going to ask Larry D. to do this...he's a pro and food on the table and a roof overhead take priority over even a much-loved game), perhaps a rendering could be made of a gamer (someone in a CoH logo T-shirt, perhaps?), looking back over his.her left shoulder, reaching out to hand four cards saying "thanks for nothing, NCSoft."  In red...addressed to the CEO by his given name (also considered quite rude).

I'll look up a few more such customs...those were just the ones I recalled.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: gypsyav on October 03, 2012, 07:19:48 AM
I disagree. CoH players should know better than any the value of the MMO's community. So unless you're prepared to be a rotten apple in their barrel, you are adding value to their game simply by playing it.

I hadn't thought of that. I was just thinking of them having a high number of players and no one buying from the store.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: gypsyav on October 03, 2012, 07:29:37 AM
When they use the the word exhausted in their response, my first thought is too bad we can't send them some Enriche energy drink.  So that they will feel refreshed and get back to the negotiating table  8)

What the most popular Korean energy drink and can we get it here in the US or in Europe? Send that to them with a nice polite letter saying, I'm really sad to hear you're so exhausted. Perhaps this will help you in your efforts to get back to negotiating.

If we can't get their most popular energy drink then we send them the best known one from whichever country we reside in.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: downix on October 03, 2012, 07:31:39 AM
What the most popular Korean energy drink and can we get it here in the US or in Europe? Send that to them with a nice polite letter saying, I'm really sad to hear you're so exhausted. Perhaps this will help you in your efforts to get back to negotiating.

If we can't get their most popular energy drink then we send them the best known one from whichever country we reside in.
*imagines the FourLoco rush*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Mentalshock on October 03, 2012, 07:42:05 AM
My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, situation excellent, I am attacking.   - Ferdinand Foch.



    Sound familiar?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Atlantea on October 03, 2012, 07:46:29 AM
My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, situation excellent, I am attacking.   - Ferdinand Foch.



    Sound familiar?

Why yes! Yes it does!

Sounds like every scrapper I've ever met in this game. Including me. :D

Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 07:47:36 AM
Why yes! Yes it does!

Sounds like every scrapper I've ever met in this game. Including me. :D

/me punches Revive and Moment of Glory and gets back in the fight.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Chaos Ex Machina on October 03, 2012, 07:50:42 AM
Please consider a number of implications.

Either the letter was a complete lie, there is a lack of buyers, or, I suspect, they set such a price that no buyers could justify it because they do not want a sale but just an excuse.

You should take a lot of effort to NOT BE BAD GUYS.  The letter may actually be a way to cover their position in the media and make any protests sound unreasonable to others.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: downix on October 03, 2012, 07:56:45 AM
Please consider a number of implications.

Either the letter was a complete lie, there is a lack of buyers, or, I suspect, they set such a price that no buyers could justify it because they do not want a sale but just an excuse.

You should take a lot of effort to NOT BE BAD GUYS.  The letter may actually be a way to cover their position in the media and make any protests sound unreasonable to others.
Not after only 33 days. Negotations can take months to settle on a price. No price has even been introduced so I understand, and investment groups have been ignored. If they set a price, they did so without ever offering it to those able to meet it.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 08:02:15 AM
Not after only 33 days. Negotations can take months to settle on a price. No price has even been introduced so I understand, and investment groups have been ignored. If they set a price, they did so without ever offering it to those able to meet it.

/me spittakes


Wait, HOW many days?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: downix on October 03, 2012, 08:05:32 AM
/me spittakes


Wait, HOW many days?
33. That is how many days since the announcement.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 08:08:00 AM
33. That is how many days since the announcement.

...and nobody finds that number auspicious?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: emu265 on October 03, 2012, 08:14:22 AM
...and nobody finds that number auspicious?
Well, yes.  Obviously.  But even if they did do it on purpose, what would it possibly mean?  That they -really- hate us?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 03, 2012, 08:16:23 AM
Well, yes.  Obviously.  But even if they did do it on purpose, what would it possibly mean?  That they -really- hate us?

Yes. >.>
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Quinch on October 03, 2012, 08:25:12 AM
So... you're uninstalling Guild Wars, a game you already paid for, thus giving them money for a service that costs them nothing to provide? I say play the hell out of it 24/7 without paying a dime extra.  Consume server resources.

...or were you going to uninstall it, download it again, uninstall it again, etc, etc.... driving up their bandwidth costs? That might work as well... *



* I do not encourage malicious attacks like this- solo, organized, or part of a botnet storm.  As others have said, wait for word from the official parties and stay as positive.

Another, possibly better way to use it is to tell people in GW what happened to CoH - because it's a NCsoft game, and because it will happen to them probably sooner than later, they should know. Just, y'know, don't be obnoxious about it.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: johnrobey on October 03, 2012, 09:07:25 AM

NCSoft,

We wanted to let you know that your message has been heard and your concerns have been taken into serious considertion.  We appreciate your response and acknowledgement of our emails, notes and packages we've sent in support of the game.  Closing Paragon Studios and shutting down City of Heroes should not have been easy. Bad decisions never should be, and this was a monumentally bad decision.  Bad for your creative teams, who now operate under the uncertainty of an overseer that doesn't seem rational or consistent. Bad for your shareholders, who have been deprived a positive revenue source, both current and future. Bad for your players, who have entrusted you with the custodianship of the social network.  Bad for your reputation, which continues to be tarnished by your demonstrated lack of the consistent and stable behavior a successful service provider must offer. Bad for the individual players who have brought our own creations to life within this online world.  You have been given options that would dissolve your relationship with City of Heroes and Paragon Studios in a way that preserves that community, reassembles as much of the development team as possible, leaves our creative contributions intact, and possibly even provides compensation for your shareholders.   You have continued to make bad decisions by rejecting those options. 

You say your options are exhausted.

We have not exhausted all our options.  We will provide opportunities to save yourselves from your own folly.  We will celebrate the work of the development studio you so abruptly dissolved.  We will demonstrate the value and strength of the community you are working to destroy. Should NCSoft come around and find an amicable resolution, we will recognize the merits of your actions.  Should you not, we will warn everyone we know everywhere we go of the hazards of placing any trust in NCSoft, protecting others as best we can. 

We are heroes. This is what we do.




(at least, this is what I was going to post.... not sure if I should use TonyV's signature line.)

I very much like what you said in your post, ChaseArcanum.  While NCSoft may be all business, so are we!!  And our motivation is not maximizing our portfolios or profits but the love all enthusiasts have for their chosen hobby.  (Note, one definition of "hobby" is "obsession".)   I imagine NCSoft did NOT anticipate this reaction to their decision to "sunset" City of Heroes, and callously laying off the Paragon Studios development team late Friday afternoon of Labor Day Weekend (U.S.) with no warning probably made sense to bean-counters (accountants) with no vision or thought to the harm NCSoft is doing to its reputation as a MMO publisher, nor what impact this decision and how they handle the on-going situation may make to their future financial prospects in this industry.

As others have pointed out, NCSoft upper managment did NOT work with Paragon Studios; there was no hint that anything was amiss, or that NCSoft needed more profit from CoH (if in fact that's the issue).  Nor were steps taken or even explored that I know of to work with the CoH Community to make CoH a product still considered viable by NCSoft.  As we all know, new Powersets and other market items were released just 10 days prior to the shutdown notice.  Maybe I'm naive, but this seems a very strange way to  run a business.  I've worked for and gotten laid off from companies that went out of business, but always we employees knew/were told by management that things weren't looking good, and everyone worked harder to save our jobs and the business.  Steps could have been taken.  Certainly the dev team should have been in the loop that their jobs were on the line.  NCSoft and the Studio could/should have explored via Community Relations ways to reach NCSoft's goals.  But no one with enough clout at NCSoft did this.  I hope NCSoft gets a clue, quickly, that stonewalling us with silence is counter-productive since it leads only to speculation (some quite unflattering) in how this business decision was reached.  They also should clue in that their recent actions are opposite to and fly in the face of their stated Core Values:  http://global.ncsoft.com/global/aboutus/visiongoals.aspx   Rather than promoting Happiness (or even mere Enjoyment) what NCSoft did and HOW they did this has provoked Grief reactions ranging from sorrow to anger, and turned the publisher into the biggest Arch-Villain ever to menace Paragon City.  Joy-killers! Sorrow-bringers! are epithets NCSoft is earning by its actions.  Yet, they still have a chance to turn this around and salvage this debacle, if only they have the wisdom to do so, and demonstrate with integrity the values they profess.

Pessimistically, I expect NCSoft to revert to more silent stonewalling, especially now when today's PR tactic has backfired and encourages us to continue our efforts to save City of Heroes.  Stonewalling would be a mistake typical of Top-down management.  Despite the fact that we fans are remain upset, NCSoft still has a Golden Opportunity to reach out to us, to work with us, to craft a Win-Win scenario so that we CoH enthusiasts can continue what we love in a way that helps NCSoft reach corporate objectives. 

I can imagine articles published months from now about this our "darkest hour",  about the creative and constructive Community response (in addition to our fan outrage and unhappiness), and how NCSoft rose to the challenge courageously and worked WITH the Community of fans (and previously loyal customers!)  If NCSoft has the vision and foresight to do this, I can imagine them coming out better than ever, re-establishing trust, and adding a layer of patina rather than deeper tarnish to their corporation.

Meanwhile, the pessimist in me believes they'll "raise the drawbridge" and retreat further into their corporate castle of isolation.  That said, What are the next steps Tony and Mr W for figuratively storming the castle walls?  I was rather impressed with the CNN iReporting and Cresting Twitter Trends, as well as other suggestions on these forums--but then, I may be easily impressed.  ;-)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 03, 2012, 12:13:15 PM
To everyone that is saying we should boycott NCsoft...

I'm not suggesting boycotting them, by all means, if you want to buy their products do so. However, I may buy one or three items  of their biggest competitors products to show my displeasure. With the biggest shopping season OF THE YEAR approaching, I would think the PR  nightmare of being the Grinch that stole Christmas isn't going to do their bottom line any good.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Frostyfrozen on October 03, 2012, 12:41:17 PM
Hello all just wanted to throw this you're way. On a idea I checked out South Korea  national holidays and they have 2 in the first 4 days. So maybe the talks did stop but not for said reasons lol For they really out visiting family and friends? And hoping to demoralize us in this window?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 03, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Anyone know anyone at Chicago's Oriental Institute?  Or just in Chicago?  They are usually really good at answering questions like this over the phone.

The University of Chicago's Oriental Institute is an archeology museum focused on the ancient Middle-East (Egypt, Mesopotamia). I don't think they could help us.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 01:21:01 PM
I don't know. One of the things on my list is to email the guy who was best man at my wedding. He works at UofC while finishes his disertation. He's spent a few months a year in China for the past ten years and has a fresher perspective on this than my book learnin'. :)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Greg Lloyd on October 03, 2012, 01:29:49 PM
The University of Chicago's Oriental Institute is an archeology museum focused on the ancient Middle-East (Egypt, Mesopotamia). I don't think they could help us.

Maybe they can send a swarm of mummies or something.
What's the collective noun for mummies? Pride, nest... a preservation of mummies!
G
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 01:38:27 PM
Business card, with a six-sided die in each corner, each with 4 pips showing.

In red ink, the text on the card reads, "NCSoft.\n The Game Killer has taken the Left-Hand Path."



Better still if somebody can re-arrange the text into a haiku. Or, if Korea has a similarly iconic poetic form, better still in that form.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 01:48:47 PM
Business card, with a six-sided die in each corner, each with 4 pips showing.

In red ink, the text on the card reads, "NCSoft.\n The Game Killer has taken the Left-Hand Path."

Better still if somebody can re-arrange the text into a haiku. Or, if Korea has a similarly iconic poetic form, better still in that form.

That sounds more like an organized crime death threat than a message of protest to this little fox...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 01:50:53 PM
Hm. Perhaps you're right. I am not sufficiently versed in the subtleties of the symbols to know exactly how to nuance them. But concern over sounding like a threat of violence is a reason I deliberately do not suggest putting any persons' names on there. We do kind-of want to threaten NCSoft's reputation's health.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Rae on October 03, 2012, 01:59:15 PM
It's..bull, isn't it? How do they figure they 'exhausted the options to sell the studio' when they dismantled it the same day they announced they were closing COH?

I'd love to know what they did to try and sell Paragon Studios, or to try and sell the IP, like they claim they have. And if they were 'options' not 'option' they didn't exactly give it much time for other negotiations to take if they had managed to 'exhaust' one route.

I bet it took them a week to write that press release and get it signed off, too.

Ugh. I don't know whether to cry or kick things.



Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 02:03:25 PM
Neither! There are numerous calls to action (And I know you've volunteered in at least one event), so participate in those or, if you've done all you can think of for them for now, there's always /em holdtorch.

Actually, that's one of the calls to action, if you can get a torch-like icon to hold aloft IRL and take a picture!
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: StarRanger4 on October 03, 2012, 02:31:24 PM
I'm guessing option #3...they've likely gone into panic mode, not anticipating the entirely negative reactions they've been getting...and they now know just how big a hornet's nest they've stirred up....  :D

 Well, at least part of what we're seeing here seems to be an offshoot of this:

http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/south-korea-country-profile.html

The Concept of Kibun

. Kibun is a word with no literal English translation; the closest terms are pride, face, mood, feelings, or state of mind.
. If you hurt someone's kibun you hurt their pride, cause them to lose dignity, and lose face. Korean interpersonal relationships operate on the principle of harmony.
. It is important to maintain a peaceful, comfortable atmosphere at all times, even if it means telling a "white lie".
. Kibun enters into every facet of Korean life.
. It is important to know how to judge the state of someone else's kibun, how to avoid hurting it, and how to keep your own kibun at the same time.
. In business, a manager's kibun is damaged if his subordinates do not show proper respect. A subordinate's kibun is damaged if his manager criticizes him in public.
. Nunchi is the ability to determine another person's kibun by using the eye.
. Since this is a culture where social harmony is crucial, being able to judge another person's state of mind is critical to maintain the person's kibun.
. Nunchi is accomplished by watching body language and listening to the tone of voice as well as what is said.

It seems that the key here is that they have, in fact, told what they see as a little white lie in order to try and restore Kibun between us and them.

The problem is that they've really gone about it the wrong way.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 02:35:07 PM
It seems that the key here is that they have, in fact, told what they see as a little white lie in order to try and restore Kibun between us and them.

To reject such an attempt risks damaging social harmony. Assuming for a moment that the statement is, in fact, not entirely true, evidence of falsehood would be very awkward for all parties involved.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DamianoV on October 03, 2012, 02:39:22 PM
If there are negotiations going on under confidentiality agreement or NDA (and NCSoft signed any that were binding upon themselves), they may just have broken said agreement... which could be valuable to any of the other parties negotiating with them, in terms of how they might proceed with their own PR posture.

Just a random thought.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 03, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
But wouldn't that be the reason to have a PR Firm, to navigate the cultural differences. 
Sorry, but I'm calling BS on the cultural differences. I would understand it being more of a factor if they strictly operated in Korea, but to do business internationally they would know other countries don't play by their cultural rules.  In the end it's about money. Always has.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Solaris on October 03, 2012, 02:46:20 PM
They want to bury the City, just like all the other games they've given up on. It's time to include Nexon whenever we mention the travesty that is NCSoft. They're supposedly one of the bigger shareholders and we've been letting them off too easily. I'm sure they'd love the association.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 02:48:54 PM
But wouldn't that be the reason to have a PR Firm, to navigate the cultural differences. 
Sorry, but I'm calling BS on the cultural differences. I would understand it being more of a factor if they strictly operated in Korea, but to do business internationally they would know other countries don't play by their cultural rules.  In the end it's about money. Always has.

The cultural differences shouldn't have a negative impact--NCsoft's executives doubtless interact with people from other cultures all the time. But that doesn't mean that taking the time to learn a little more about our audience is a bad thing. I just enjoy learning about other cultures in general.

Still, "a little learning is a dangerous thing."
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 03, 2012, 02:49:52 PM
There is, in all cultures with a concept akin to "kibun," a way to turn so ham-handed an effort to restore it when one is wronging you and attempting to artificially hide it around without violating it yourself. I am not an expert on Korean social judo, so I can't offer the proper, precise means of doing so. But I can say this: we must be willing to both play this as Westerners - take the insult as an affront and demand satisfaction - and to also take a more subtle tack, wherein we play the game and demonstrate that it is NCSoft who is causing the embarassing loss of kibun for all parties while we attempt desperately to spare it.

West-wise, "You're lying" is the easiest and best response. It instantly undercuts their effort, it shows just how badly they've affronted us, and it makes them look inept at maintaining kibun AND at handling PR. Kibun-wise, doing so does hurt them, but also makes us look crass for so baldly declaring it. It still, if Asian fiction can be trusted, can be done, but we will have to otherwise be PARAGONS of courtesy and virtue to demonstrate that our failure in this instance to accept their effort is not a failing of ours, but a sign that NCSoft has so badly violated the spirit of kibun and done such a dishonorably abhorrent job of exercising Nunchi that it is obviously entirely their fault.

I think, but I could be wrong here, that a more subtly-worded but still pointed variant on the following might be a good way to try to shame them into giving us what we want lest they damage kibun further while we demonstrate proper nunchi:

"Your understanding and hearing is appreciated, and we feel your great pain at the sorrow you feel for the harm your actions have caused. In order to spare you further turmoil, let us join in brotherhood with no secrets between us that we might find a solution. We understand that you're exhausted, so allow our energy to sustain you as we find the harmonious solution we all doubtless desire. Your wisdom can surely find it, if you but take of our energy and innovation. We are all distressed to see you fail in this beloved goal you have set. Let us assure that you do, instead, succeed."
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 03:12:48 PM
"Your understanding and hearing is appreciated, and we feel your great pain at the sorrow you feel for the harm your actions have caused. In order to spare you further turmoil, let us join in brotherhood with no secrets between us that we might find a solution. We understand that you're exhausted, so allow our energy to sustain you as we find the harmonious solution we all doubtless desire. Your wisdom can surely find it, if you but take of our energy and innovation. We are all distressed to see you fail in this beloved goal you have set. Let us assure that you do, instead, succeed."

That seems to be a fair message to me. Would anyone else have an opinion?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: darkquill on October 03, 2012, 03:53:32 PM
That seems to be a fair message to me. Would anyone else have an opinion?

Only to agree.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: dwturducken on October 03, 2012, 03:56:45 PM
Well here is something that occurred to me.  It will take some research....but in most cultures there is a token, an object or something of the sort, that indicates that you have committed an act of such shame and cowardice that you really should consider going home and drowning yourself.  In the West it is a white feather--white feathers were given to young men in WWI who did not enlist, very often by young women.  I am sure there is something similar in Korean culture.

Now imagine dozens, hundreds of such tokens sent to NCSoft...attached to "save CoH" cards.

Here's an idea: How about we go the other way.  There is some symbology of theirs that we could use to our advantage. For instance, cats are seen to expel evil spirits, while bats were used in decorations to symbolize luck.  Also, for some reason, roosters were symbols of patience, war, and other surprisingly noble things.

Not sure if this sort of symbolism is too "old-fashioned" to be of use, but maybe it' a way of accomplishing what you suggest without "going negative."
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Nyghtshade on October 03, 2012, 09:49:54 PM
I'm only just weighing in here, so forgive me for taking so long.  It seems to me an amazing bit if irony that just at a time when "Save CoH" enthusiasm seemed to be lagging for a number of players... NCSoft went and threw gasoline on the fire.   

*Warms hands over the flames, wonders how much pressure lots of facebook posts about NCSoft's unseemly business practices and how Garriott won both his lawsuit and NCSoft's appeal (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/10/25/richard-garriott-wins-lawsuit-against-ncsoft-again/)" might generate.*
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Turjan on October 03, 2012, 10:32:17 PM
It seems that the key here is that they have, in fact, told what they see as a little white lie in order to try and restore Kibun between us and them.

The problem is that they've really gone about it the wrong way.

Exactly. As ever, they have demonstrated a singular lack of understanding of western Kibun!

This continues to surprise me when you consider Taek-Jin Kim's missus Dr. Song-Yee Yoong has a degree from MIT. Which logically implies she spent enough time living in the US to at least acquire said degree.

It occurs to me that if they're not going to try and understand the western mindset, we should make every effort to understand the Korean mindset. Because in so doing, we'd be playing Kibun oneupmanship...if you get my drift ;)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Valjean on October 03, 2012, 11:00:12 PM
I call BS on cultural differences too. NCsoft has an American PR team. This isn't about cultural differences, this is about them not giving a darn about the players.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 03, 2012, 11:13:58 PM
I call BS on cultural differences too. NCsoft has an American PR team. This isn't about cultural differences, this is about them not giving a darn about the players.

I actually think both are true.

NCSoft absolutely, as a corporate entity, thinks we are a bunch of children.  They have showed this contemptuous attitude toward us in everything they have done since Black Friday.  To them, we are nothing but sheep to be sheared and it is outrageous that we are daring to threaten to withhold our wool.  And to be fair, how many corporations in the West can you name that don't pretty much have the same outlook?

However I think that their outrage and attitude also stems from a complete inability (or unwillingness) to understand the West. 

In a way, it's the worst of Western corporate culture married to the worst of Korean cultural attitudes towards underlings (ie, customers).

I believe that using their own culture against them cannot hurt, and might herd them in a direction we want them to go.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 01:01:11 AM
While many corporations in the West do view the customer as a funding base, if any saw the kind of reaction we're giving NCSoft, they would be playing a much more active PR game. If dead-set on killing CoH no matter what, they'd be working very, very hard to spin it into the ground and spin us with every carrot, stick, and trick they could think of, because they'd recognize that, "children" or not, this is a disaster for their future.

VV is right; the lack of understanding of the West is making NCSoft not only do this callously, but foolishly. And our best hope is to understand them enough to show them precisely why.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: MishaFox on October 04, 2012, 08:30:30 AM
Why is it that every time NCSoft does something it just makes things worse? What is painfully clear is that they just do not understand how we feel and how to handle this tactfully and politely. Their whole treatment of this has been heavy handed and cavalier. Whatever ultimately happens to CoX this will hurt the company as a whole.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 04, 2012, 08:34:38 AM
While many corporations in the West do view the customer as a funding base, if any saw the kind of reaction we're giving NCSoft, they would be playing a much more active PR game. If dead-set on killing CoH no matter what, they'd be working very, very hard to spin it into the ground and spin us with every carrot, stick, and trick they could think of, because they'd recognize that, "children" or not, this is a disaster for their future.

Could it just boil down to the fact that because this is mainly impacting western audiences, and NC is switching to focus on only eastern, that they figure anything that happens with us won't affect them in a year or so?

To summarize, without any intention of sounding racist, nationalist, or whatever, "We're only going to focus on the Korean market soon, and our customers won't care what the English-speaking world thinks of us."
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Ascendant on October 04, 2012, 10:06:56 AM
I agree that there are cultural differences-- this is is a documented fact.

What I don't agree with is that this is an insurmountable problem. NCSoft is a business, and even if they don't value us as a customer base, they have to value us as a potential commodity-- a salable item someone else WILL value.  I think the whole "we can't reach an agreement" thing is smoke an mirrors designed to amp up the offering price as possible (and I take some small amount of pleasure in the fact that it will probably cost NCSoft about $60 to translate "Smoke and mirrors" into a culturally appropriated phrase).

However, I think that every instance where we make ourselves public indicates to potential buyers/investors is that yes, there is an established and passionate playerbase here, and that's worth something tangible.  Heck, lots of MMORPGs have sunsetted with a less committed players.  One that values the game, and actually wants, no, is EAGER, to pay for it.  I'm pretty sure that SW:TOR or CO would pay good money for that kind of commitment.

Lastly, there's the matter that you simply don't try to destroy a City of Heroes without expecting those Heroes to fight back.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 04, 2012, 10:11:37 AM
I agree that there are cultural differences-- this is is a documented fact.

What I don't agree with is that this is an insurmountable problem. NCSoft is a business, and even if they don't value us as a customer base, they have to value us as a potential commodity-- a salable item someone else WILL value.  I think the whole "we can't reach an agreement" thing is smoke an mirrors designed to amp up the offering price as possible (and I take some small amount of pleasure in the fact that it will probably cost NCSoft about $60 to translate "Smoke and mirrors" into a culturally appropriated phrase).

However, I think that every instance where we make ourselves public indicates to potential buyers/investors is that yes, there is an established and passionate playerbase here, and that's worth something tangible.  Heck, lots of MMORPGs have sunsetted with a less committed players.  One that values the game, and actually wants, no, is EAGER, to pay for it.  I'm pretty sure that SW:TOR or CO would pay good money for that kind of commitment.

Lastly, there's the matter that you simply don't try to destroy a City of Heroes without expecting those Heroes to fight back.

"I'll be damned if I'm going to let you take away the whole city!"

<.<

>.>

Also:

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=p.twimg.com%2FA345z5BCYAATJyQ.jpg)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Soundtrack on October 04, 2012, 12:49:02 PM
In the words of Captain John Paul Jones (http://quotationsbook.com/quote/15057/)...
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: eeek on October 04, 2012, 12:55:32 PM
Why is it that every time NCSoft does something it just makes things worse? What is painfully clear is that they just do not understand how we feel and how to handle this tactfully and politely. Their whole treatment of this has been heavy handed and cavalier. Whatever ultimately happens to CoX this will hurt the company as a whole.

I don't believe their announcement was ever meant for us.  It was intended as a way for them to plaster their (suddenly oh-so, very) compassionate and heartfelt message.

After Black Friday, the media were reporting on us, the plucky underdogs, taking on this big, multi-national mega-corp.  The responses from the readers were often supportive, and of the  "go get 'em!" variety.  They took a nasty hit, and got some PR folks to do some spin doctor magic.

Now after their recent announcement, what's been in the media?  THEIR headlines, stuff like "CoH Is Gone."  Why?  Because NCSoft made the last news.  Not because anyone has any negative bias, but because they made the headline news.  And what happened when their message made headlines?  The responses got much more negative, telling us to give it up and move on, and stop acting like whiny crybabies.

So, no, it doesn't seem like this maneuver was heavy handed at all.  It seems like they pretty skillfully shifted the headlines from OUR message, to THEIR (suddenly kind and gentle) message.  I don't think their move this time made things worse for them at all.  I think it was pretty slick, actually.

We can leave the headlines alone, but then that leaves NCSoft with the last word,  in the broader eye of the public.  That is really counter-productive to our cause, because regardless what you or I think of it, or whether it had the slightest truth to it or not,  it sounded reasonable.  (Dammit!)

We need our own spin doctors to tell us how to make the next headline, without US looking like the heavy-handed jerks here. 

Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Turjan on October 04, 2012, 01:56:58 PM
Good point indeed there, eeek.

Just a week ago, the media was all over that BS rumour about "NCSoft in talks to buy Valve". I'm seriously beginning to wonder now if that rumour was actually started by someone at NCSoft in an attempt to hike share prices and save a bit of face from the drop they had after the initial flush of GW2 sales. As it happened, the rumour was quickly quashed and didn't impact share prices anyway...but all the same, my tinfoil hat is tingling...

As far as how NCSoft's latest announcement is being handled by the media, there's a not a lot we can do about that because they are always more likely to get a headline than we are because they're a global gaming corporation and we...well, basically we aren't.

But it occurs to me that as all they've done is repeat their initial announcement (which made headlines) then we should repeat OUR initial actions (which also made headlines).

A Unity rally would be ideal - but I fear that might actually end up doing us more harm than good. There's no doubt there are a hard core of players with heels all dug in, refusing to budge, but I'm also certain there are less players to draw on than we had during the initial emotional reaction to the news on Aug 31st. And if we put together a rally that attratced less than the 3700 shown in Leandro's now-legendary video, then NCoft could just lean back in their shiny leather exec chairs, fold their hands behind their hands and say "Ha! See? Support is waning. Now all we have to do is wait them out".

Alas, this will always be our problem, so if we can't do what we did before, then we must do something entirely different. So different the media will have to look at us almost as if to say "wtf are they doing there now? Oh, I gotta write this down..."

I'm thinking something ingame, something visual, something...symbolic. Something that wouldn't necessarily require thousands of players, but would be visual enough to send a message that we've not gone away and we still think of Paragon City as OURS. All we'd need is that one special screenshot to speak the proverbial thousand words.

If you cannot have the depth of a crowd, you will need the length of a line. And a tracking shot. And a suitable location.

- The top of a moutainous ridge, zulu style, holding torches (at night perhaps).
- A row of swimmers all in perfect synch, swimming out from the shore together.
- Two rows, heroes and villains, facing each other in a PvP zone not with conflict but all with boombox emotes.
- Heroes huddled atop the Atlas globe, like so many angels on the head of a pin.

I'm sure other ideas will present themselves once folk make the mental shift from the idea of straight numbers to one of context and symbolism. The point is to capture that magic "Kodak moment", one that can sit atop a news article as a visual hook. All journos love a good visual hook after all. And it wouldn't even matter if the article under the hook picture said nothing new - because after all, that is essentially exactly what NCSoft just did with their announcement wasn't it? ;)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 04, 2012, 02:06:44 PM
Maybe we should get a PR firm or Publicist?
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 02:16:36 PM
There's been good community response to the Media Day (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5388.0.html) event, though I've not been able to follow up on my end this week. I am taking off work tomorrow and will hit it hard, getting a press release/invitation written in the morning and researching where to send it. I'll ask the community for their editorial input (TonyV in particular) before sending it, just to be sure I haven't made any obvious faux pas.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: cptbarcode on October 04, 2012, 04:42:53 PM
NCSoft absolutely, as a corporate entity, thinks we are a bunch of children.  They have showed this contemptuous attitude toward us in everything they have done since Black Friday.  To them, we are nothing but sheep to be sheared and it is outrageous that we are daring to threaten to withhold our wool.  And to be fair, how many corporations in the West can you name that don't pretty much have the same outlook?

And they may be compensating for insecurities. After all, ultimately, they're only entertainers.
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Sleepy Wonder on October 04, 2012, 05:40:46 PM
The war aint over until the fat lady sings.  8)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: JWBullfrog on October 04, 2012, 10:49:03 PM
In the words of Captain John Paul Jones (http://quotationsbook.com/quote/15057/)...

So the bass player from Led Zeppelin was a captain? I never knew that. ;D ;D
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Soundtrack on October 04, 2012, 10:55:30 PM

So the bass player from Led Zeppelin was a captain? I never knew that. ;D ;D

ROFL...yes, well he was multi-class.   :o  ;)
Title: Re: And NC says...
Post by: Atlantea on October 05, 2012, 03:40:58 PM
ROFL...yes, well he was multi-class.   :o  ;)

A bard who could also wield a wicked axe? **RIMSHOT**  :D