Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: jimdog33 on September 19, 2012, 01:36:49 PM
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I always wondered why in-game ads for real life products (i.e. - cars, snacks etc.) was never implemented as a revenue stream? It's a city with highways, transit stops, billboards, stores, blank wall space... If it saves the game, I wouldn't mind having RL companies paste their logos & products all over the place.
Heck, even throw an ad on while loading zones... who cares? Save CoH!
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Honestly, this is a good idea. Heck, what if they sold "retail space" in game, allowing, say, Amazon to have a "book store" you could walk your heroes through and buy ebooks and other products with your game account being billed? Could even let the customer use the "supergroup base" construction engine to design their "store."
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That is a good idea, but I think they had considered it. Actually, I remember someone asking about this on the boards after the sad news. LocalMan has always known what's up so it should be pretty accurate: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297140&highlight=ingame+ads
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Hmm, on second thought, after reading that thread again, there's no reason they couldn't have tried it again really, maybe advertising gaming equipment. Normally I wouldn't particularly like advertising in game, but I would be all for it in a heartbeat if it saved our city!
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That is a good idea, but I think they had considered it. Actually, I remember someone asking about this on the boards after the sad news. LocalMan has always known what's up so it should be pretty accurate: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297140&highlight=ingame+ads
They could always re-visit the idea as an option for additional revenue stream. I understand the whole "impressions" argument and that players zip by without paying attention, the ads could be made more prominent like the stores being actual 7-11s or something.
As for the option to turn off in-game ads... well they could always remove that option. I think the player base would have a different standpoint with the future of the game in dire straits.
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Me, I'm for advertising in-game in ways that it would show up in the real world for two reasons: additional revenue stream, and it would make Paragon City look more "realistic" in a lot of ways.
Heck, to some extent, it would be getting somebody else to pay for the privilege of designing some of the in-game visuals. (It would obviously require a EULA-type thing that did something with ad images similar to what the EULA does with our game character images so Paragon Studios couldn't be sued for an ad showing up in somebody's webcast.)
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Hmm, on second thought, after reading that thread again, there's no reason they couldn't have tried it again really, maybe advertising gaming equipment. Normally I wouldn't particularly like advertising in game, but I would be all for it in a heartbeat if it saved our city!
Exactly. This was attempted back in 2006 or something. Online & in-game advertising/marketing has come a long way since. I don't see why this couldn't be re-visited now as a potential save situation? The deployment & management of online ads is far more intuitive than it used to be.
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As for the option to turn off in-game ads... well they could always remove that option. I think the player base would have a different standpoint with the future of the game in dire straits.
The biggest trick is one that a lot of web sites are learning these days: make the ads inoffensive. Not "unobtrusive," but also not "glaring, in-your-face annoying."
I use adblock on a lot of sites, but some I frequent I turn it off for (they had requests that I do so where their banners normally would show) because I do want to support them and because the ads aren't huge load-time additions and don't flash and pop and overlay in ways that make them irritating. They're there, off to the side, and if they catch my eye because they look interesting, I might be persuaded to check them out. That's how ads work best: pique interest, catch the eye of your intended audience, and inform them there is a product they might wish to buy.
Jumping out and screaming at them the way many pop-ups work is what gives advertising a bad name. I think a lot of quiet ad space could be very effectively sold in a game without offending anybody who wasn't going out of his way to be offended.
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I remember seeing a billboard for the film Babylon AD in Paragon, a number of years ago. Nothing since.
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My vote would be on doing it the same way some browser games do it, if you are a subscriber you don't see the ads (or get an option where they are turned off by default but can be enabled), and if you're a free player you do see the ads.
I believe part of the reason it went south the first time around was because the game was still P2P and a lot of people objected to the idea of ads in their game.
And yes, gaming gear would be great - make some deals with DELL, Steelseries, etc... maybe even some energy drinks* =P
* Might as well take advantage of the old gamer stereo typing ;)
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I see little reason to turn off "in-game billboards" or "storefronts" for subscribers; it would diminish the appeal of selling the ad space and would not enhance the game for anybody. Something is going to have to occupy that screen-space when it's on the client's screen anyway. Shutting off ads in the loading screens, though, might be worthwhile.
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I remember seeing a billboard for the film Babylon AD in Paragon, a number of years ago. Nothing since.
Well, I'm not sure where you were seeing them but it wasn't Paragon. We had two ads - some shoes and a phone - before the whole thing was scrapped.
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I see little reason to turn off "in-game billboards" or "storefronts" for subscribers; it would diminish the appeal of selling the ad space and would not enhance the game for anybody. Something is going to have to occupy that screen-space when it's on the client's screen anyway. Shutting off ads in the loading screens, though, might be worthwhile.
That would definitely be a workable solution.
Then again I was never among those that had problems with in game ads (it's a business after all, they have to money or close shop)
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Well, I'm not sure where you were seeing them but it wasn't Paragon. We had two ads - some shoes and a phone - before the whole thing was scrapped.
Huh.
Well, I wouldn't put it beyond me to hallucinate Vin Diesel.
(Unless it was a UK thing mebbe? Seems unlikely, though. I vaguely remember an official forum blow-up about it when it was announced. Wasn't it opt-in, though?)
Honestly, this is a good idea. Heck, what if they sold "retail space" in game, allowing, say, Amazon to have a "book store" you could walk your heroes through and buy ebooks and other products with your game account being billed? Could even let the customer use the "supergroup base" construction engine to design their "store."
This would cost me a fortune.
I /love/ it.
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*puts on his devious marketing hat*
If in-game retail stores (a la the Amazon store idea I mentioned above) were a "thing," buying locations for your retail stores could be a sneaky incentive for people to use your store. Imagine if each retail store owned by one purveyor had access to all "location" entrances. Suddenly, walking through the aisles of Super*Mart might be a shortcut across a couple zones, if you know of locations in two zones you want to visit.
In-game billboards could give, for an additional fee to the purveyor, inspirations to the heroes who interact with them that teleport them to the retail store, as well.
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The retail locations could even have Sponsored Events, wherein missions to rob them for villains clash with missions to protect them from heroes.
Successful "robbery" might come with some out-of-game promotional item (like a coupon or something), while successful "protection" would get similar. The former being "hey, you stole it!" and the latter being "grateful store-owner gift."
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*puts on his devious marketing hat*
If in-game retail stores (a la the Amazon store idea I mentioned above) were a "thing," buying locations for your retail stores could be a sneaky incentive for people to use your store. Imagine if each retail store owned by one purveyor had access to all "location" entrances. Suddenly, walking through the aisles of Super*Mart might be a shortcut across a couple zones, if you know of locations in two zones you want to visit.
In-game billboards could give, for an additional fee to the purveyor, inspirations to the heroes who interact with them that teleport them to the retail store, as well.
Now I'm suddenly picturing a huge shopping mall (zone like Pocket D) that connects to a bunch of zones :p
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And every store in it is more revenue to the company that the players don't have to directly generate, thus making the game more viable and self-sustaining! ^_^_v
The virtue of marketing is when it unites convenience and incentive with the designs of those who'll pay for access to the audience. Instead of being a nuisance the audience endures, it becomes a convenience they seek out. Suddenly, everybody's happy. Capitalism at its best!
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Destructible environments = Starbucks, Wal-mart & Apple stores
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I think that'd be a pretty sad thing to do...
Normally i wouldn't mind anything like billboard ads, but in CoH the whole way organizations and stuff advertises make them part of the game universe. It's one of those slight things that build the overall game magic to me.
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I think that'd be a pretty sad thing to do...
Normally i wouldn't mind anything like billboard ads, but in CoH the whole way organizations and stuff advertises make them part of the game universe. It's one of those slight things that build the overall game magic to me.
If there's no game, there's no magic... universe has gone dark.
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Normally i wouldn't mind anything like billboard ads, but in CoH the whole way organizations and stuff advertises make them part of the game universe. It's one of those slight things that build the overall game magic to me.
If in-game advertising worked anything at all like it did when they tried it before, you'd only see a few billboards here and there replaced. Not all of them would have real-world ads.
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I think that'd be a pretty sad thing to do...
Normally i wouldn't mind anything like billboard ads, but in CoH the whole way organizations and stuff advertises make them part of the game universe. It's one of those slight things that build the overall game magic to me.
Valid concern.
Done well, it wouldn't remove the fictional in-universe advertisements; they just wouldn't be the only ones. Heck, clever marketing execs at the client purveyors would take the style and feel of CoH into account and design special ads that play on it. It might be a bit off-putting to have Stateman shilling for Apple, but it would be kind-of cool to see hints that Nemesis is behind, say, Pizza Hut's new delivery service. Charge purveyors extra to incorporate them as a patsy, location, or other such thing in a grander scheme in missions, or something. Product placement without going over-the-top about it would be the key.
The theory is that these things are part of the in-game universe, and that everything has to happen somewhere, so let those who want to pay just to be seen get to be that "somewhere." Keeping it from overwhelming the story would not even be hard; it would just take some wisdom and moderation.
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For instance, changing the vending machines to dispense real-world sodas and snack would, IMO, further connect the game world to the real world... having every billboard converted to selling Pepsi would be a HUGE misstep, and piss me off.
There is a line.
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On a related note, I know Second Life managed to strike several deals years ago, with even Manpower opening some offices in the game (probably others too, but I recall reading the manpower article a few years ago when a friend was playing the game. http://www.manpowergroup.com/press/secondlife.cfm).
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For instance, changing the vending machines to dispense real-world sodas and snack would, IMO, further connect the game world to the real world... having every billboard converted to selling Pepsi would be a HUGE misstep, and piss me off.
There is a line.
Agreed. Any semi-skilled marketer would know how to balance capitalizing on a fervent & loyal fan base vs. complete spamming to the point of their brand becoming hated. You would think that, anyways LOL
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Agreed. Any semi-skilled marketer would know how to balance capitalizing on a fervent & loyal fan base vs. complete spamming to the point of their brand becoming hated. You would think that, anyways LOL
It's amazing how many professionals in many fields don't meet the underlined adjective. It's easy to do things wrong while feigning competence; all you have to do is convince somebody who knows they're not an expert that you know better than they because you claim to be an expert.
And marketing seems to be one of those fields where a lot of the "expertise" becomes in-bred, talking only to itself, and risks becoming ignorant and then contemptuous of the actual audience. I think it comes from a certain cynicism in viewing people as "manipulable" that makes the so-called experts think they know people better than they know themselves. It leads to confirmation bias, amongst other things. Add in second- and third-generation "experts" who learned from the last generation of experts and haven't really studied how the world has changed, and you get the mix of genuine talent with the huge swath of highly-educated ignoramuses that think they're much smarter than they think they are.
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Well, I'm not sure where you were seeing them but it wasn't Paragon. We had two ads - some shoes and a phone - before the whole thing was scrapped.
Nope, we definitely had a Babylon AD advert on the Union and Defiant back in the day. It was the only advert we had. I assume the EU and US servers ran different ads.
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I assume the EU and US servers ran different ads.
Quite possible. Different markets, different advertisements.
Clearly that wasn't left up to NCsoft to figure out. ;)
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This is the exact idea I have asked to be placed in the code for plan z and have mentioned to numerous people for after we save COH. Because managed correctly it does add to t.he game experiance. My background in marketing, sadly, can't do much *except* on the advertising or sponsorship front. Once we again have a viable project again...regardless if it is plan A, Q, B or even Z. I look forward to finding sponsors, designing real life rewards missions, immersive promotional contente, etc. In fact several of the ideas posted in this thread...well either a lot of brains are on similar wavelengths :P or you were among thosein game who I have spoken to about this idea :D
So provided we do save our game, I am very willing to join the marketing team.
Save my city...or let it rise from the ashes.
We are heroes nd this is what we do.
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Similar wavelengths, in my case. I have not played in years, but I am always looking for ways to make something that I am interested in make money for those who produce it, preferably without costing the direct consumer much at all. Because I recognize that making money is what makes something thrive. And, admittedly, I one day want to be the producer of such goods, and the more ways I can make such things profitable, the more of those goods I can get behind making, and...
Well, it's a beautiful upward spiral.
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So, you lurkers who report back to the two parties at the negotiating table are writing this all down, right? ;D
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I would absolutely LOVE this idea... my wallet may not. (I love Amazon and shop there frequently). :)
And as somebody suggested...those who pay x dollars a month see NO ads... if you pay Y dollars/month you DO see ads where X > Y.
I would just ask the stores, etc. were tastefully done.
What I would NOT want to see happen is regular broadcasts:
"SALE AT THE MACY'S STORE - WOMEN'S SHOES 20% off!" spammed.
Maybe there'd be a "Store" channel that people could block/allow?
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I hadn't even considered ads in chat channels. I would not recommend that, nor would I suggest NPCs that hawk wares out in public places. It would be too irritating. Maybe in a given company's "store" space, where NPCs and "PA announcements" could be the source of these things, but that'd be on the company's head.
And of course taste would be required; you don't go into a Wal*Mart or a Kohl's or a Neiman Marcus and find tastelessness on parade; it's bad for business. If any store tried to be tasteless, it would probably not get much custom. And it would be within terms-of-use to disallow designs that got too many complaints or offended sensibilities.
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Here's a question: where's the line? Would real political ads be allowed, or regional companies? What about content? We all could agree that porn ads would be disallowed, but what about male enhancement or ED treatments or feminine hygiene? I'm asking as a parent who has just introduced his kids to the game.
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No regular spam broadcasts....but how about including info among the things npc pedestrians might say. ;)
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Here's a question: where's the line? Would real political ads be allowed, or regional companies? What about content? We all could agree that porn ads would be disallowed, but what about male enhancement or ED treatments or feminine hygiene? I'm asking as a parent who has just introduced his kids to the game.
Good questions...first we are not compelled to take.a specific sponsor or representation. Second there is.concepts such.as zoning. There are certain portions of content that is a bit.dark for younger players anyway. So.yeah.certain products just aren't going in this game (at least if I have any say ;D ) except possibly in an 18 plus district or zone.
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Really, "content appropriateness" would likely go through the same filters that prevent the kinds of ads over which concern has been expressed from showing up during, say, "Avatar: the Legend of Korra" or "My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic" (to name two kids' shows popular with older audiences).
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I could get behind something like this... storefronts for places like Amazon, Egghead, TigerDirect, and GameStop seem to me the most appropriate way to go.
Feminine hygeine or male ED or pharmacuetical companies pushing their hottest new "cure"? I don't like them on regular tv, much less anywhere else.
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I could get behind something like this... storefronts for places like Amazon, Egghead, TigerDirect, and GameStop seem to me the most appropriate way to go.
Feminine hygeine or male ED or pharmacuetical companies pushing their hottest new "cure"? I don't like them on regular tv, much less anywhere else.
Mmmmm... Gamestop stores in-game? There's a slippery slope. ;)
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Mmmmm... Gamestop stores in-game? There's a slippery slope. ;)
It's so... meta.
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Guys? There was a point in that other thread that bears repeating - if only so we can figure out a way around it:
(Ghost Falcon here, on my personal account).
Ultimately, in-game advertising via billboards just didn't prove very successful. In a game where players can super speed, super jump, fly and teleport, players did not stay in front of an advertisement long enough to count as an advertisement "impression". (Note: "Impression" is defined as a player's character standing within a predefined area (and facing the ad) for a specified amount of time.)
Additionally, by providing players the option to turn off in-game advertising, those impressions were reduced even further.
He's right. I have one character with superspeed/superleap - another with flight - another with Superleap.
The one with SS/SL is FAST - velocity Hard-capped. When I'm racing down Steel Canyon I barely see/notice billboards at all.
The one with flight is often too high to see the ads.
The one with superleap? If I HAPPEN to land right in front of one that's distinctive? I might notice it. But most of the time I'm concentrating on where I'm going to land and take off from next and pointing in the right direction.
A little history lesson for you with shaving cream as the example - Burma Shave:
(From Wiki-pedia) Burma-Shave sign series first appeared in Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1925, and remained a major advertising component until 1963 in most of the contiguous United States. The exceptions were New Mexico, Arizona, and Nevada (deemed to have insufficient road traffic), and Massachusetts (eliminated due to that state's high land rentals and roadside foliage). Typically, six consecutive small signs would be posted along the edge of highways, spaced for sequential reading by passing motorists. The last sign was almost always the name of the product.
This use of the billboard was a successful advertising gimmick during the early years of the automobile, drawing attention and passers-by who were curious to discover the punchline. As the Interstate system expanded in the late 1950s and vehicle speeds increased, it became more difficult to attract motorists' attention with small signs.
(For the curious - the progression of the signs went like the following examples:
Every shaver / Now can snore / Six more minutes / Than before / By using / Burma-Shave
Train approaching / Whistle squealing / Stop / Avoid that run-down feeling / Burma-Shave
If you dislike / Big traffic fines / Slow down / Till you / Can read these signs / Burma-Shave )
So that's the main problem I see - the billboards in Paragon City would work for cars (in theory) and slower moving characters without travel powers. But once you get travel powers, it becomes a problem.
So what to do? Well - put them in places where the characters are naturally going to be slowed down or moving through tight spaces - or even stationary just hanging around.
I suggest Pocket "D" as the first place. C'mon! It's A BAR. How many advertisements do you ALWAYS see IN A BAR? There's all that wide-open window space to the outside. Put some holographic/see-through ads along the top half of those windows - or even neon signage style! Put ads behind the bars. Put the ads in the Lobby coming into the bar from the various entrances!
Next suggestion: Put a few in the power suppression room of AE. Or even in the kiosk area near the Interface node. (Perhaps using the same "semi-transparent/neon signage style suggested for the windows in Pocket D.)
Have a supergroup base? Want to reduce the cost of your rent? Put up some ads in your base!
Put up ads along the back wall of ICON (Facemaker for Villains?)
Put up ads in the various HO Stores.
Yin's Market.
Or anywhere the Heroes/Villains are going to be SLOWED DOWN - STOPPED - LOOKING AROUND.
(OOohhh!! Hey! If NCSoft wants to buy adspace in the game, we'll let them do so - but ONLY IN THE ROGUE ISLANDS!!! :D)
So what do you guys think?
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I think that's really smart.
Also at every contact that starts a TF/SF.
And at the stores/trainer spot in DA where we all gather for Incarnate Trials now.
And behind Lady Grey.
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Ouroboros: Proudly accepts the sponsorship of Crey Cola! Now in two new flavors!
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So what to do? Well - put them in places where the characters are naturally going to be slowed down or moving through tight spaces - or even stationary just hanging around.
I suggest Pocket "D" as the first place. C'mon! It's A BAR. How many advertisements do you ALWAYS see IN A BAR? There's all that wide-open window space to the outside. Put some holographic/see-through ads along the top half of those windows - or even neon signage style! Put ads behind the bars. Put the ads in the Lobby coming into the bar from the various entrances!
Hah, I was just about to say maybe add some ads for beauty products and perfume at the tailors (Icon & Facemaker)! :p
My solution to the problem would be to suggest placing them in locations where players naturally hold still, such as; in the tram station, on the ferries, at the trainers, near mission contacts... etc.
Edit: Oops! Seems it was already mentioned when I had to afk mid-posting! Ah well! :D
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Also, that bar proposition with the holo-ads makes me think of Mass Effect/Star Wars for some reason >.>
(I like it!)
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Ouroboros: Proudly accepts the sponsorship of Crey Cola! Now in two new flavors!
Heh.
You've reminded me of a caveat I should've mentioned - there are a few places in the game where placing obvious ads wouldn't feel appropriate, and Ouroboros is one of them.
I also like VV's suggestion for placing ads around the TF/SF Contacts - to a point. The ones in the city? Yes. Ones in places "out in the wild" like The Woodsman in Eden or Imperious in Cimerora? Obviously not
DO try to also make the ads near the trainers/TF contacts look "naturally placed." They should be nearby and obvious. But perhaps not RIGHT BEHIND the NPC contact.
For example - Dr. Kahn for the Reichsman TF. He's in Founders Falls near the Gaspee. Directly behind him is nothing but a canal. Ok. Don't put the ads back there - that's a residential area ( I assume ) and putting billboards on the canal? Tacky.
But he's right across the street from a line of stores, just down the way is the Tram station and close by is the Vanguard base entrance. These are all good places to put ads already. So put them there and make sure that a significant proportion of them face towards the gathering area in front of him. Put some billboards on top of the storefronts - at the edges of the little park area in front of the tram etc.
On the other hand - Numina and Infernal are in that lovely area with the Greek Columns. And it would seem wrong - even though they are in the city - to muck up that area with ads.
But on the gripping hand, the area around the Talos Station? OH HELL YES! PLACE THOSE ADS CHOCK-A-BLOCK!! Everyone goes through Talos eventually, and that area is obviously modeled on strip-mall retail areas. That is PRIMO Advertising location right there! Especially IN THE TRAM EXIT. There shouldn't hardly be ANY Wall space that isn't plastered with ads in that little area where the heroes get on and off the trams! If you've ever been through the New York Subway or the London underground, you'll understand that adspace in a tram station is the natural order of things!
So I assume you see where I'm going with this - Ads should be placed in high traffic areas where heroes are forced to slow down and stop. With some notable exceptions based on logic and taste.
One last consideration. Praetoria.
I don't think we should put real world ads there. Reasons:
1) Alternate Universe. Different products. (Enriche, etc)
2) EVERYTHING in Praetoria serves the story there, including the billboards. Propaganda is a HUGE theme in Praetoria. So don't mess with it!
3) If you move from Primal Earth Paragon City/Rogue Islands to Praetoria, the LACK of real world ads would add to the sense of "the other". The sense of this world having a VERY different history. To build on #2 above, it's all part of the "cultural zeitgeist" of Praetoria.
What do you think?
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The only way it would have really worked is load screens (that could be measured, and even as the best times, restricted) but to 'sell' it to the fanbase it would have had to have an in-game connotation to make it work.
Sorry, that's the way I see it, and that's the sad truth. While a McDonalds franchise in-game would have been neat to see, it just wouldn't have been a seller to an advertiser. There would be no way to 'guarantee' visibility...
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The only way it would have really worked is load screens (that could be measured, and even as the best times, restricted) but to 'sell' it to the fanbase it would have had to have an in-game connotation to make it work.
Sorry, that's the way I see it, and that's the sad truth. While a McDonalds franchise in-game would have been neat to see, it just wouldn't have been a seller to an advertiser. There would be no way to 'guarantee' visibility...
As mentioned before, there's no reason they couldn't do those too - it would be nice for subscribers to have those turned off by default though (while still seeing the boards)
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Oh, it could get slipprier: Steam with its own retail outlet in-game.
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Oh, it could get slipprier: Steam with its own retail outlet in-game.
...there goes my paychecks in their entirety...
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...there goes my paychecks in their entirety...
I would make my wife very unhappy with me if this one came about.
I would be opposed to ads in the bases, but product placement...
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I would make my wife very unhappy with me if this one came about...
I would be opposed to ads in the bases, but product placement...
I wouldn't mind having a Coke machine in the lobby of Liberty Manor or something. >.>
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They tried this a long time back... Ghost Raptor was the EU CC then so it was probably around 2007. They advertised one movie and then nobody else was interested
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My understanding is that there was a lot of pushback from players, largely because they were ALL subscribers at the time and paying for the privilege. I think a revamping as the game is being saved and while it's a f2p game will work better.
Now, attracting advertisers is another matter; it may be difficult to do. We'll have to show there's an audience.
The more the community is built around both casual "hanging out" online and superheroics, the more it will likely attract a wider audience. It may even be worthwhile to create a somewhat lower-level account type that just lets a casual person log in with a vaguely generic avatar to "look around" as a non-super on the street. (With awareness that straying outside of "safe zones" might get the random street gangs picking on them. Or maybe giving them aggro-free wandering as long as they stay out of events.) This would allow parents, SOs, random friends, etc. to log in to see if their player-buddies are online, send them a chat in-game without asking them to log off to use Skype or the like, etc. And if there are online retail outfits that are more fun to browse than the standard web site, it could be an attraction.
Of course, that level of interplay is getting pie-in-the-sky, so I should stop daydreamnig about it for the moment. Right now, just allowing billboards, sponsored "vending machines," "retail stores" and maybe allowing purveyors to pay for the privilege of creating in-game costume pieces that bear their name brand (the way people buy Calvin Klein and the like just to have the logo splayed across their jeans) would be a good start. Could vastly increase the "secret identity"/"street clothes" stuff available to players' characters.
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Nope, we definitely had a Babylon AD advert on the Union and Defiant back in the day. It was the only advert we had. I assume the EU and US servers ran different ads.
We did indeed have the Babylon AD advert on Union and Defiant, I remember it well.
AT first I thought "Oh, that's novel" and smiled whenever I saw the ad as I raced round Paragon. Then after a while it began to irritate me because it literally was the ONLY real world ad, so I turned off the "show adverts ingame" feature from the options menu. Then after another while, I realised I'd actually got used to seeing the ad...so I turned the feature back on again :)
Didn't last long as an experiment though - when I asked some of my CoH playing friends, they said things like : "It spoils the parallel universe feel, you know?" and "I'm paying for the game, why should I have to put up with adverts everywhere too?"
Personally I don't see either of those arguments as particularly valid. For the first one, any products alluded to in the 'parallel' worlds of superhero comicbooks are often so close to reality that it's blindingly obvious what's being referenced. And for the second, if you buy a newspaper, are you going to complain about the adverts in it with the logic that because you bought a newspaper, every inch of paper should have a news story on it?
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For the first one, any products alluded to in the 'parallel' worlds of superhero comicbooks are often so close to reality that it's blindingly obvious what's being referenced.
It could have been a parallel universe where the film didn't suck ;)
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The "parallel" feel may have to be sacrificed some, yes, but I think that objection is a bit of a reach, anyway. Especially now that it's f2p.
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Of course, that level of interplay is getting pie-in-the-sky, so I should stop daydreamnig about it for the moment. Right now, just allowing billboards, sponsored "vending machines," "retail stores" and maybe allowing purveyors to pay for the privilege of creating in-game costume pieces that bear their name brand (the way people buy Calvin Klein and the like just to have the logo splayed across their jeans) would be a good start. Could vastly increase the "secret identity"/"street clothes" stuff available to players' characters.
You have to be VERY careful with that in video games. You're basically talking about trying to open Pandora's box just a crack and hoping all Hell doesn't break loose.
The moment you give sponsors that much power and get that much money from them, they start to feel entitled to control other elements of gameplay, just like a producer stepping on the toes of the director. While there are a lot of junk games out there, there are a lot more GOOD games coming out every year than there are GOOD movies. There's a reason for that. Developers/Distributors can still often survive on their own without needing game characters running around with Red Bull shirts, unlike television, where the ratio of showtime to ad-time shifts further in favor of ads each year. If we ever reach a point where video games are as dependent upon product insertion as TV and film is, it will utterly destroy the creative freedom of the industry.
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Maintaining control is pretty simple: take a "take it or leave it" stance. Don't be rude about it, just be firm. Provide them tools or services to design some in-game stuff, but hold them to the same standards you would a player with a VIP account. They are paying customers, but that doesn't give them any more "creative control rights" than it gives a paying player.
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Having major temporary posting problems here....jury rigged phone that is a nightmare to type on,but reading and loving how many of you seem to have similar ideas to mine :D
I will.promise you that when we save our game in whatever version we save.it....if I am among those running in game adds...they will always be neutral or enhancing your experiance....that is my.pledge as a player and a professional.
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I saw a couple of posts a little earlier in the thread re: confirmation of the ad impression being difficult to obtain. How about if we as the players click on the ad to confirm that we saw it? Perhaps even have a "Like"/"Dislike" option for additional feedback?
You can count me amongst those who was mildly against this idea back in 2006: not so much so that I was going to stop playing the game, but definitely concerned about the details. To say that the situation now in 2012 is different is to be a master of the understatement... and I don't just mean the looming potential shutdown.
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I saw a couple of posts a little earlier in the thread re: confirmation of the ad impression being difficult to obtain. How about if we as the players click on the ad to confirm that we saw it? Perhaps even have a "Like"/"Dislike" option for additional feedback?
You can count me amongst those who was mildly against this idea back in 2006: not so much so that I was going to stop playing the game, but definitely concerned about the details. To say that the situation now in 2012 is different is to be a master of the understatement... and I don't just mean the looming potential shutdown.
Put them on posters in missions and give out badges for clicking on 10, 25, 50, 100, 1000... ;D
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To address an earlier comment about travel powers allowing players to bypass the billboards (and I have lamented the level 4 travel availability as the most aggregious nerf , since it was introduced, but I digress), what about, say, a car company having excluse rights to use one or two of their actual cars as models throughout the zones. I don't mean the "All Cars Are Fords trope, but, in among the existing, generic cars, maybe the occasional Camry or Prius. Or perhaps a dealership with a salesman "friend" who needs some heroic help, with some selected sales/feature talk thrown into the dialogue.
If you watch Mad Men or Burn Notice, those two shows are particularly good at working the product placement into the dialogue and not making it sound clumsy or heavy-handed.
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Put them on posters in missions and give out badges for clicking on 10, 25, 50, 100, 1000... ;D
I like this....very nice and not something on the list. kudos
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Put them on posters in missions and give out badges for clicking on 10, 25, 50, 100, 1000... ;D
As an on-again, off-again badge collector... I approve this message. :P
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Travel powers - specific spots depend on whether we have the same landscape when the dust settles....but you folks already half the answer, spots where players will want or need to go and slow down.
The other half involves real world forms of advertising that are expensive only in the real world. sponsored blimp anyone ;D How about landscaped logo.scenary visible from above. Also sponsored in game events. Sky writing planes.Movie theaters to submit our creations and real wprld trailers. I would say more if typing was not such a problem this week.
Even an idea is on my list keep them comming...we are going to save our world and keep it functioning....never thought we'd be here...but I am almost looking forward to working for a product I believe in :)
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To address an earlier comment about travel powers allowing players to bypass the billboards (and I have lamented the level 4 travel availability as the most aggregious nerf , since it was introduced, but I digress), what about, say, a car company having excluse rights to use one or two of their actual cars as models throughout the zones. I don't mean the "All Cars Are Fords trope, but, in among the existing, generic cars, maybe the occasional Camry or Prius. Or perhaps a dealership with a salesman "friend" who needs some heroic help, with some selected sales/feature talk thrown into the dialogue.
If you watch Mad Men or Burn Notice, those two shows are particularly good at working the product placement into the dialogue and not making it sound clumsy or heavy-handed.
Well for that matter, why stop at billboards? It's a big city, with a lot of room for shops. Some can just be fronts of course, but as an example, Starbucks as an RP hangout? (and right next to the PPD building of course)
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Well for that matter, why stop at billboards? It's a big city, with a lot of room for shops. Some can just be fronts of course, but as an example, Starbucks as an RP hangout? (and right next to the PPD building of course)
Dunkin Donuts! C'moooon!
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Here's a variation on this theme.
I'm not crazy about an in-game store front for real world companies. It feels like too much of an intrusion. I could, however support something like adding links to the in-game store.
For example: You open the Paragon Market as we are able to do now. Along one side of that screen is a set of links out to merchants who wish to advertise. Clicking on that link will connect you to that merchant's existing website.
As I see it, this gets around the inappropriate content issue since the advertisements will not be 'out in the open' as it were. Perhaps an option to block access to those could be included. I could also see this addressing potential issues of liability.
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Dunkin Donuts! C'moooon!
Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte = Level 50 +1.
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Dunkin Donuts! C'moooon!
Think Randy's Donuts, the inspiration for the donut shop in Faultline/Overbrook, would want to see their name on that building, instead?
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I'm not crazy about an in-game store front for real world companies. It feels like too much of an intrusion.
That's the beauty of it; you don't have to go into them. There will be incentives (e.g. the idea that all store-fronts link to the same store, so passing through could be a valuable shortcut), but it would be unintrusive to those who don't want to bother to enter.
I could, however support something like adding links to the in-game store.
For example: You open the Paragon Market as we are able to do now. Along one side of that screen is a set of links out to merchants who wish to advertise. Clicking on that link will connect you to that merchant's existing website.
As I see it, this gets around the inappropriate content issue since the advertisements will not be 'out in the open' as it were. Perhaps an option to block access to those could be included. I could also see this addressing potential issues of liability.
Ads not "out in the open" fail completely. The avoidance of inappropriate content is done in two ways: integrate the ads into the game in the same way they're integrated into real-world cities, and watchdogging the actual content to make sure it remains PG. Maybe the thinnest edge into PG-13.
That said, letting vendors advertise or link to wares in the Paragon Market might not be a bad idea, as long as it doesn't get in the way of shopping for the in-game stuff people want.
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Nope, we definitely had a Babylon AD advert on the Union and Defiant back in the day. It was the only advert we had. I assume the EU and US servers ran different ads.
It wasn't tied to the servers: I saw the Vin Diesel ad on a billboard in AP many times, and I play on Infinity and Virtue -- but I live in the UK. I guess that means it detected location via IP address, like US tv web sites that won't let me watch free episodes available to US residents.
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It wasn't tied to the servers: I saw the Vin Diesel ad on a billboard in AP many times, and I play on Infinity and Virtue -- but I live in the UK. I guess that means it detected location via IP address, like US tv web sites that won't let me watch free episodes available to US residents.
And all those Youtube commercials! =P
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Put them on posters in missions and give out badges for clicking on 10, 25, 50, 100, 1000... ;D
The more badges the better!
Just a thought that passed my mind: would any of the big companies, given the opportunity to advertize, be interested in acquiring the IP? Probably just a silly thought, but .... one never knows what brilliant plan can follow a silly thought.
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Okay now that I am on an actual computer.
I'm going to try and consolidate some of the general thoughts and concerns in this thread.
I'm doing this mostly from memory so if I miss anything speak up.
1. Most people seem to think in game advertising makes sense as a way of supporting a resurrected or reborn game. In the past there were objections but these are different times.
2. There were concerns about the types of adds that might be placed or how much they were likely to intrude on our experience. Many of us realized that if the community is in charge of this then the community also has the right to reject potential sponsors and govern in what manor their presence impacts our game.
3. In the past there was a limited attempt to have in-game adds and fast moving and often airbourne heroes made it hard to get useful view counts. Toward that problem we addressed placing adds in places where heroes naturally slow down, and created more places where they will want to visit.
4. We talked about storefronts - the pros and the cons
5. We talked about logo clothing for our street wear
6. Destructable signature locations from various sponsors and missions to rescue a company mascot with an in-game or coupon reward....but not forcing such content on players
7. We talked about incorporating adds into a linked game store as long as it didn't get in the way
8. We mentioned sponsored loading screens
9. I think I mentioned pizza delivery drivers who you could stop on the street in order to order virtual or real pizza and that might come to your actual house.
10. Protecting young gamers from R and X rated products....questionable products would be restricted to 18+ zones (along with missions that are a bit to gritty for children) or just would not be allowed in game at all.
11. We talked about immersion and how companies might either be required to use an "in-universe" style and might also pay a premium price for an in-universe endorsement. i.e. Manticore never leaves home without his (insert name brand here) running shoes.
12. We also talked about allowing/encouraging full storefront shopping experience as opposed to promotional facades that might even allow online shopping for real world and/or virtual items
How was that for off the top of my head ;) Anything missing?
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Anything missing?
Placing ads in missions and making them clickable for badges (and confirmation that someone actually looked at the ad.) Seriously. Badge monkeys like me would be all over that.
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Doh....sorry about that yes clickable adds both in AND out of missions that would link with badges.
A wonderful idea.
"View 10 billboards in Talos Island"
"Pick-up 20 signature coffee mugs in missions"
"100 adds viewed"
"30 real life rewards missions"
"Handed out flyers"
You also just gave me a new idea add design contests for new sponsored products...why not design them as a community ;)
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Placing ads in missions and making them clickable for badges (and confirmation that someone actually looked at the ad.) Seriously. Badge monkeys like me would be all over that.
That's actually brilliant!
Even in other games that have achievements instead of badges everyone would click them to get those achievements!
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Mild quibble I only bring up because it's caused me to have to double-take a few times:
"add" means to do addition, as in mathematics. Or to "add something on" to something else.
The word we're trying to use here is "ad," which is short for "advertisement."
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Segev is correct the shortened form of advertising should be Ad. Why was I just repeatedly guilty of usng the mathematical term...not the foggiest clue. We don't actually use the term much in my branch of the industry ;) but I still know better...just not concentrating on that aspect I guess
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Why was I just repeatedly guilty of usng the mathematical term...not the foggiest clue.
I suspect many of us can instinctively type something likes "Adds!" very quickly.
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Is it bad that I forget that is a meaningful one-liner in MMOs? ^^;
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...this gives me another thought. What if in-game ads could be clicked on for in-game adds, paid for as part of the sponsorship by the client? Maybe a shoe ad would give a speed buff when clicked on, or a food ad would give some minor healing.
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...this gives me another thought. What if in-game ads could be clicked on for in-game adds, paid for as part of the sponsorship by the client? Maybe a shoe ad would give a speed buff when clicked on, or a food ad would give some minor healing.
Just FYI, buffs are not adds. Adds are additional enemies that are either accidentally drawn into aggro or scripted to be drawn into aggro.
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Oh. ^^;
Well, then, my mistake. Sorry for showing my lack-of-knowledge so flagrantly.
Because I like the pun, is there a way to keep the concept of "ads giving adds" without making it something players view as a negative?
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Not really. Adds has a specific meaning and is specifically attached to additional enemies.
You can call them "click buffs" though, we already have that term and it's basically the same thing with a different mechanic behind it.
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"Click buffs" from ads are a good idea, I think (and I hope I'm not just tooting my own horn).
I know people will deliberately crank up difficulties in missions in order to get increased exp. (In fact, one of the last things that made me quit playing was one too many groups who couldn't cooperate properly but insisted on maxed-out difficulties...resulting in repeated party wipes. This isn't why I really never returned; I just am not a big MMO guy. CoV has kudos for being the one MMO I kept playing into the teen levels.)
To the point, though: what if some missions had optional difficulty enhancement by clicking on the ad associated with it? It literally adds adds to the fight, possibly with some useful and appropriate Salvage for beating them. But is purely optional; you don't HAVE to click on it. (Probably should have clear markers of what ads are buff ads and which are add ads.)
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I think it would be an awesome idea! Make the stores actual stores! If I saw a Pizza Hut or something, I may order a pizza while playing.
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Not really. Adds has a specific meaning and is specifically attached to additional enemies.
You can call them "click buffs" though, we already have that term and it's basically the same thing with a different mechanic behind it.
Makes you wonder if the screens on Rikti portal devices have pop-up commercials, forcing Comm Officers to click ads for their adds... ;D
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...this gives me another thought. What if in-game ads could be clicked on for in-game adds, paid for as part of the sponsorship by the client? Maybe a shoe ad would give a speed buff when clicked on, or a food ad would give some minor healing.
And yet another wonderful thinking outside the box idea from segev :P
Carefully sneaking over to plug his entire brain into my little idea file...bwaaahha ;)
Company mascot arena matches sound kinda fun....how about vanity pets from some of the more interesting mascots out there.
Tony the Tiger, Mr. Clean, Chester Cheetah, Toucan Sam, peanut m &m, an animated can of mountain dew, or living pizza box...I would laugh at what this community would do with silly and adorable tag alongs like those.
You could earn these pets with in game missions or clicks, purchase them outright, or else by turnin in real life game codes of some kind.
Keep the ideas comming
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And yet another wonderful thinking outside the box idea from segev :P
Carefully sneaking over to plug his entire brain into my little idea file...bwaaahha ;)
*Assimilating additional resources... Expanding neural net.... Assuming direct control!*
Er, um, I mean, Thanks! ^_^
Makes you wonder if the screens on Rikti portal devices have pop-up commercials, forcing Comm Officers to click ads for their adds... ;D
Company mascot arena matches sound kinda fun....how about vanity pets from some of the more interesting mascots out there.
Arenas with sponsors...and the ability to gain control of sponsor locations to put adds on the field against your opponents? Keep this strictly in an "arena match" type surrounding, rather than making it a part of missions; don't want to get too obnoxious with it in places where the "wow, that's amusing and fun" would clash with the verisimilitude.
Tony the Tiger, Mr. Clean, Chester Cheetah, Toucan Sam, peanut m &m, an animated can of mountain dew, or living pizza box...I would laugh at what this community would do with silly and adorable tag alongs like those.
You could earn these pets with in game missions or clicks, purchase them outright, or else by turnin in real life game codes of some kind.
Keep the ideas comming
We'd need to be mildly careful with permitting them to be obtainable pets. This is where the advertisers would probably have a feeling that they should have "creative control" levers, and we want to minimize the justified desire for that. I say this because, when their mascots are out there under player control, they will be very concerned that their mascots are not being used in some way that reflects "negatively" (as they see it based on their own desired image) on their company.
For instance, PepsiCo. might object fiercely to somebody making a "hero" or "villain" called "The Diabetic" that was made as slovenly and unattractive and as close to overweight as possible that had the Mountain Dew Can pet cheerfully following him around. (We avoid some of this by not having it possible to make The Blob with the CoH hero generator, but...you see where this could be a problem, I hope.)
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Another thought for something that could work as an in-game "store" type thing:
Movie theaters. (Yes, I just suggested somebody see if they could make a mock-up of one in the base-building contest thread; this is why.) As an example of how to do it without risking "I'll just record the movie with my game-recording software," it could interface with Netflix software. Players could either pay-per-movie from Netflix (or a proprietary) database, or use their Netflix (or proprietary) account to access the menu. Options to have your hero or party silhouetted, MST3k style, or have them not visible would be available, depending on how you want your movie-going experience to play out.
In-game movie theater screens could play actual movie trailers, or the like. There's no risk of those being recorded in a way that would be copyright-violating; the whole point of trailers is for people to see them.
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Always liked this idea...
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Honestly, I think what I'm proposing is transforming into creating a possibility for entire civilian life in the CoH zones. Put your hero in civvies, and he can go shopping for books, catch a movie, hang out in the mall with some friends...and advertisers are paying CoH for the privilege of having things he's using be there to use.
You want more, deeper role-play possibilities? "Secret Identity" missions where the plot of the mission revolves around aspects of daily life, made larger-than-life by the need to hide your powers or the ability to turn your powers towards their resolution. For villains, have some Task Force that has a side-mission when you "die" and wind up at the hospital: you were arrested, and now you have to break out or farce your way through a trial to "prove your innocence."
Obviously not something you'll want to do every time you die, but it could be interesting every once in a while, especially if it's a random rota. As a hero, you might even need to do some "secret identity" missions that build your secret identity's persona in the setting, getting a job and the like. Said jobs determine which "lifestyle"-related missions you can take later on. The "lawyer" job might let you prosecute (or even, perversely, have to defend) a supervillain. The "waitress" one might have you fighting Vazhilock's (sorry if that's misspelled) efforts to introduce an experimental mutagen into your restaurant's food supply. That sort of thing.
Sponsors could even ask to pay to be the company that's the "victim" or otherwise plays a prominent role; they'd have to agree to take the risks associated with marketing campaigns that put them in the line of fire of supers, but many would likely still leap at the opportunity.
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Sponsors could even ask to pay to be the company that's the "victim" or otherwise plays a prominent role; they'd have to agree to take the risks associated with marketing campaigns that put them in the line of fire of supers, but many would likely still leap at the opportunity.
If Pizza Hut was cool with having ads on the TMNT films, I don't see why this wouldn't work.
Easy on the mascot thing though. While I don't mind when I see players doing homage characters, the idea of actual Tony the Tiger pets would somehow terribly kill the immersion for me.
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If Pizza Hut was cool with having ads on the TMNT films, I don't see why this wouldn't work.
Sure, but you'd have to be careful to keep all parties aware at all times. If Pizza Hut were sponsoring the "waitress fights the mutagen in the food" mission, they might be leery of the visual of their food making people sick and turning them into monsters, even if it wasn't actually Pizza Hut's fault.
By the same token, they might be fine with it if their food were depicted giving them super-powers, even if they also went nuts and turned evil. After all, super-powers are cool. And the reward from that mission could be a limited-use "infected pizza" that somehow doesn't make your hero go crazy, just gives a brief super-transformation. But it only has a few slices...
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Sponsored temp power items ala Popeye spinach?
Random example: A shot of Redbull to reduce recharge time on powers.
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Pretty much. I would generally suggest that it should be something that comes as part of the standard "sponsor a mission" package, because we don't want it to replace standard inspirations. And "having to earn" the sponsored reward will actually make the advertisement slightly more effective by making it more memorable, which will in turn make the experience of "earning" it more fun for the player and make it more desirable as a marketing device to the paying purveyor. Win-win all around.
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Another thing is... are radio missions randomly generated as far as story content? Always wondered about this. Because if so, sponsors could also pay to just get their name in one of the random strings for those missions, and then instead of recovering the weapon prototype, it's research from an IRL cancer institute being held for ransom, a GM prototype clean-energy engine being sold off on the black market, or whatever you like.
Very interesting the stuff that is coming up in this thread now. It's something I've mused over in the past as bizarre ideas for financially sustaining online environments.
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I'm all for this idea since this is part of the "making noise" our community is doing.
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Another thought for something that could work as an in-game "store" type thing:
Movie theaters. (Yes, I just suggested somebody see if they could make a mock-up of one in the base-building contest thread; this is why.) As an example of how to do it without risking "I'll just record the movie with my game-recording software," it could interface with Netflix software. Players could either pay-per-movie from Netflix (or a proprietary) database, or use their Netflix (or proprietary) account to access the menu. Options to have your hero or party silhouetted, MST3k style, or have them not visible would be available, depending on how you want your movie-going experience to play out.
In-game movie theater screens could play actual movie trailers, or the like. There's no risk of those being recorded in a way that would be copyright-violating; the whole point of trailers is for people to see them.
I'd settle for trailers and Netflix ads/links in the in game theaters.
And even then I'm not sure how such stuff would accept the bandwidth and stuff (I suppose it could work if it went through a Netflix player instead of through the game itself).
Definitely an awesome plan on paper, not sure how feasible it is tech wise. (One for you tech savvy people? :P)
It'd be great for the RPers though! No more fastforwarding movie dates!
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In this post, I start getting very pie-in-the-sky, but it's in line with developing tech to make CoH as much a "casual hang out" as a MMO (which should help bring in advertisers).
This is a bit ancillary, as well. It's taking it from "simulated world" to also being "augmented reality."
iPhones and similar mobile devices have fairly decent cameras capable of motion video capture and real-time image processing (to a limited extent). An app to enable your mobile device to use bluetooth to ping other mobile devices carrying the same app and say, "the guy carrying me is so-and-so," combined with some image-processing tech to identify where people's heads are, could enable holding a phone up and seeing the in-game name tags and titles over a real-world player's head. Obviously, this would be a voluntary thing, used for "cool, I wanted to meet you IRL" situations; it must be turn-offable so people don't feel over-exposed should they not want to be recognized out of game.
Take this a step further, however, and you could allow people to take photos of themselves and input that into the avatar generator (to get body/build type) and build their characters' costumes around it. Why is this relevant, you ask? Aside from vanity "my character really does look somewhat like me" things, the app listed above could be further designed to use bluetooth to take from the viewed-person's mobile device the avatar construct and use image-processing tech to superimpose the avatar over the person's image in the camera.
Suddenly, the hero-view app allows us to look at each other through our phones and see our in-game avatars, moving as if in the real world.
Alone, this doesn't help attract advertisers, but it's a cool and fun augmented reality toy for social networking and meeting each other IRL if we want to. However, we could also "hang" ads in real-world locations, either with QR codes that advertisers can put into their otherwise-purchased real-world ads that would trigger special images and/or video in mobile devices using this ap to look at them, or by having locations actually recorded and recognizable by the app and putting virtual ads in them.
Truly ambitiously - this isn't likely to be realistic any time soon - if a real-world store made its in-game retail space modeled after a real-world location and set up the network in that real-world location to talk to mobile devices running this ap, people could look through their phones to see heroes who were there only virtually. Doing the reverse might be a bit too "big brother" esq for most people's comfort, as cool as being able to see "real people" walking through the virtual store might be. (This would involve cameras around the real-world store that placed the real world people in the virtual store.)
Like I said, pie-in-the-sky stuff, but amusing to think about.
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Sorry to go missing on you all...kinda had the vigilante hat on yesterday.
While City of Heroes has never had any direct control over Cape radio or the other streaming stations why not place them within this as well, invite advertisers to steam and/or appear in game with a discount for the package deal? Allow up to three featured sponsors per webcast. There are rules about sponsorship vs advertising and I have to look up how the apply to web tations but sposorship should be fine at minimum. We would obviously have to work out details with official reps from those internet stations or have them on the ad board for a reborn COH...but it should be viewed as an opportunity for all parties.
And wouldn't it be nice if those in game boom boxes could actually pick up those streams? There are some potential concerns with that but something to think about
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Another marketing ploy that honestly CO could probably use as well as CoH, but would go entertainingly hand-in-hand, perhaps, with the "in game retail space" idea:
There is very promising tech in the 3D printing arena. It isn't something that is going to be marketable to home users reasonably soon, but producing a unit intended for sale to toy stores and other retail outlets so they can print, say, figurines of a hero made in the avatar-builder that CoH uses could be interesting. Players could shop online in-game or just go to their friendly local store with their avatar saved in a special format on a thumb drive or something. Or they could log on at the store and grab their character for printing. The store either pays CoH rent for the device or pays a royalty for each printing, and keeps the rest.
If I remember correctly, you can make some pretty fantasy-esq and sci-fi-esq avatars (maybe even orcs, goblins, elves, and the like) with the CoH avatar-generator; there might be market here for custom gaming figurines, too.
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OK, the ideas in this thread are getting some really good traction, but one thing that occurred to me that I have not seen addressed is the effect in real terms of clicking on the ad. Do we want to have an actual pop up, because I still maintain software on my computer to stop that sort of thing, including the dynamic ad banners in web pages. I'm all for billboards and posters and rewarding our attention to them, but, if I'm in a fight with an AV or Elite Boss and accidentally click a poster, I'm gonna be extremely pissed if the game goes into the background and an ad webpage opens.
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I confess to only sharing "my vision" here. This is how I would do it were I in charge - and that is...not likely. (I wouldn't mind being so, but realistically, unless I get hired as a consultant for such a thing - which is totally outside my actual field of expertise - it's only slightly more likely than me winning the lottery by buying just one ticket.)
But. I see it as being as close to "real life" ads as possible, but with gameplay and convenience elements thrown in. Good heavens, no, there would be no "send game to background; here's a web page" ads. Clicking on ads would open, at most, in-game objects (e.g. for picking which Inspiration you want as your reward), and largely, even THAT likely wouldn't be necessary, since such things are generally automated in the game so they do not interrupt the ability of the player to keep his character alive.
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I confess to only sharing "my vision" here. This is how I would do it were I in charge - and that is...not likely. (I wouldn't mind being so, but realistically, unless I get hired as a consultant for such a thing - which is totally outside my actual field of expertise - it's only slightly more likely than me winning the lottery by buying just one ticket.)
But. I see it as being as close to "real life" ads as possible, but with gameplay and convenience elements thrown in. Good heavens, no, there would be no "send game to background; here's a web page" ads. Clicking on ads would open, at most, in-game objects (e.g. for picking which Inspiration you want as your reward), and largely, even THAT likely wouldn't be necessary, since such things are generally automated in the game so they do not interrupt the ability of the player to keep his character alive.
Segev I um put your name in for the Plan Z side ad team actually :) Because whether we end up on Plan A, Q, or Z if the community is involved...we NEED in game marketing. I hope it wasn't presumpive of me...but its where you belong :)
As for the adds what if they went to a tab for viewing later (tip missions) or hit the side of your screen like tool tips?
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If there's really a call for ads to have a "read this later for more info if interested" sort of thing, the most stylish in-game way to do it, I think, would be to include any ads you've clicked on that have that sort of thing as options in your Newspaper. When you open it up, you have the usual list of missions, and some ads you've selected for later viewing. You can open and read the whole ad the way you open and read the other "articles" that wind up providing missions.
Heck, for sponsored missions, those ads could HAVE missions associated with them. (Sponsored missions would have to be arranged carefully, as stated before, though if there's a Foundry-type mission-building system, "sponsoring" a mission could just be a way to get your self-made mission into the newspaper listings. Somebody has to find your ad in-game, click on it, then choose it from the list of Newspaper missions, but they don't have to hunt through the "normal" means of locating one.)
Putting them in other areas, like the tool-tips or the like, could also work; it would depend and could probably use some play-testing just to see how players like it best.
I don't mind helping out with "plan Z" in that capacity; I warn you that my expertise is in Computational Intelligence, and not marketing, but I'm happy to help. My whole personal goal here is involvement because I have...an idea...that would be greatly aided by an MMO as a development bed. Like all of you, I sincerely hope CoH is saved - preferably by IP being sold and Paragon Studios continuing to run it (whether independently or as a subsidiary of another company) - and to be able to work with them on it in the future. But if "plan Z" is how it works out, then I'll be quite happy to help with it as I can.
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I'm sorry, but if "Plan Z" is turning into City of Advertising, I'll just let City of Heroes die with dignity. Once you let in advertisers, you have lost control of the game. If it was limited to a .jpg pic of their product on a billboard, that would be one thing, but they will want to inject tracking code and other crap ware. Once that advertising money starts rolling in, they know they have you just like a drug dealer. If I am going to pay a subscription to play a game, I come there to play the game. I don't want to play City of Facebook.
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I'm sorry, but if "Plan Z" is turning into City of Advertising, I'll just let City of Heroes die with dignity. Once you let in advertisers, you have lost control of the game. If it was limited to a .jpg pic of their product on a billboard, that would be one thing, but they will want to inject tracking code and other crap ware. Once that advertising money starts rolling in, they know they have you just like a drug dealer. If I am going to pay a subscription to play a game, I come there to play the game. I don't want to play City of Facebook.
Well, 1) you wouldn't be paying a subscription unless you wanted to. It's a free-to-play model.
2) They can WANT all they like, but ultimately the game creator does control it. Anything that drives players away by making it more annoying is going to ultimately diminish ad revenue, something that many web designers seem to be learning these days as ads become less intrusive. (They can still be problematic, but I have noticed that we get fewer popup-swarms and that the number of obnoxious talking banner ads has gone down, lately.)
3) The goal would be to integrate the ads so that they "fit in" as much as they do in the real world. They are pictures on billboards, storefronts that are real stores (or are, themselves, at least references to said stores as a subtle sort of ad), product placement, etc.
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Well, 1) you wouldn't be paying a subscription unless you wanted to. It's a free-to-play model.
2) They can WANT all they like, but ultimately the game creator does control it. Anything that drives players away by making it more annoying is going to ultimately diminish ad revenue, something that many web designers seem to be learning these days as ads become less intrusive. (They can still be problematic, but I have noticed that we get fewer popup-swarms and that the number of obnoxious talking banner ads has gone down, lately.)
3) The goal would be to integrate the ads so that they "fit in" as much as they do in the real world. They are pictures on billboards, storefronts that are real stores (or are, themselves, at least references to said stores as a subtle sort of ad), product placement, etc.
The goal is to create ad revenue as unobtrusively as possible, similar to watching a movie. Yes, that's right, that awesome action movie you just watched contains massive amounts of advertising! Don't believe me?
Action Hero Man drives a Ford! That's an ad. Ford paid the studio money to make sure Action Hero Man drives a Ford car. Does this disrupt your ability to enjoy the movie? Not a bit! But somewhere in the back of your mind, your subconscious is now going "Man, Action Hero Man is so cool, I wish I had a car like his."
AHM drinks Coca-Cola. This is another ad. Coca-Cola paid the studio money to have AHM promote their beverage by drinking it on screen. Is this intrusive? No. AHM has to drink something during that heart-warming dinner scene with his estranged daughter, and the studio might as well get paid for it.
Now we start getting more subtle. Next time you re-watch the movie, check out the back ground of scenes. AHM owns a Sony television, with a Playstation 3.(Ad!) His coffee maker is a Mr Coffee.(Ad!) His washing machine is a GE.(Ad!)
"Product placement" is still advertising, and if done correctly, is almost "invisible" while still putting all of those brands into your subconscious. Oh, and one more example. Remember that awesome car chase scene with AHM and the bad guy? Check out the billboards in the background. More advertising! :P
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Well, 1) you wouldn't be paying a subscription unless you wanted to. It's a free-to-play model.
2) They can WANT all they like, but ultimately the game creator does control it. Anything that drives players away by making it more annoying is going to ultimately diminish ad revenue, something that many web designers seem to be learning these days as ads become less intrusive. (They can still be problematic, but I have noticed that we get fewer popup-swarms and that the number of obnoxious talking banner ads has gone down, lately.)
3) The goal would be to integrate the ads so that they "fit in" as much as they do in the real world. They are pictures on billboards, storefronts that are real stores (or are, themselves, at least references to said stores as a subtle sort of ad), product placement, etc.
1. So subscribers would see no ads, stores fronts, etc. You can guarantee that?
2. So traffic trackers and the like are OK to put on people's computers as long as they do not see them?
3. I have no problem with a picture on a billboard or a soda can with "Pepsi" on it as long as there is no underlying code attached to it. I do dislike the "storefront " idea. Like I said before, this is not City of Facebook. I came here to play a game with friends, not buy snow tires or feminine hygiene products. The only store we need was like the Paragon Store.
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1. So subscribers would see no ads, stores fronts, etc. You can guarantee that?
I will not guarantee that. It may be that there is a "turn off ads" option, but turning them off would turn off those soda cans and billboards. See DrakeGrimm's post on this.
2. So traffic trackers and the like are OK to put on people's computers as long as they do not see them?
Define "traffic tracker" in this case. It's never okay to load spyware on people's computers without their knowledge AND consent. Nor would it be permitted, if I were the one in charge (if I'm not, I can't speak for those who are, and it would be an interesting turn of events for me to be so; I can, however, speak to my "vision" of it as I've been brainstorming in this thread).
3. I have no problem with a picture on a billboard or a soda can with "Pepsi" on it as long as there is no underlying code attached to it. I do dislike the "storefront " idea. Like I said before, this is not City of Facebook. I came here to play a game with friends, not buy snow tires or feminine hygiene products. The only store we need was like the Paragon Store.
So don't. Don't go into the store areas. Ignore the product placement as you do in an action movie. Just go in and kick butt and save the day as per normal. It's not like you're going to be forced to watch commercials before you can go play a mission or something.
"City of Facebook" is something I can't comment on; I don't use Facebook enough to know what you think you're referring to.
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Define "traffic tracker" in this case. It's never okay to load spyware on people's computers without their knowledge AND consent. Nor would it be permitted, if I were the one in charge (if I'm not, I can't speak for those who are, and it would be an interesting turn of events for me to be so; I can, however, speak to my "vision" of it as I've been brainstorming in this thread).
So don't. Don't go into the store areas. Ignore the product placement as you do in an action movie. Just go in and kick butt and save the day as per normal. It's not like you're going to be forced to watch commercials before you can go play a mission or something.
"City of Facebook" is something I can't comment on; I don't use Facebook enough to know what you think you're referring to.
Sorry for using the incorrect name. "An ad tracker is defined as a tool which tracks ad campaigns to provide return on investment information (http://www.adtrackerreviews.com/ad-tracker.html)" These are little programs that send data off your hard drive back to the company doing the advertising. The problem is that no one can see what information is being sent because they run in the background unseen. These trackers are a MAJOR invasion of privacy. Sure the advertiser can say that they are only collecting game statistics and the like, but are they really? Plus, gamemakers force customers into having to use them by you accepting the EULA. If I am paying a subscription, why do the advertisers feel I need to pay them with more information about myself?
I use the term "City of Facebook" because that is what Facebook does.. It gathers all the information about a person that it can just to sell products. Every app or game you play on it has the distinct purpose to sell you something. I don't want "Plan Z" to be like that. I do not want to give up my privacy just to be able to play the game. Some of the posts in this thread come across like people saying "I'll give up my rights to privacy for a free game"
As I said before, I have no problem with a picture or and object bearing a product's name as long as the game is not bombarded with them. Information gathering is a whole other monster. Would you tolerate salespeople knocking on your door at different times of the day, everyday and writing down everything they can about you, your family, your household etc ? Then why tolerate it when they do it to your computer which probably holds even more of your sensitive information?
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Sounds like something a) we've not mentioned as options in this thread and b) that a good anti-malware program should be able to control. I know Avast! blocks a lot of things until I give them permission; a similar program might find a market in people who want these "invisible info gatherers" made visible and blockable.
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The goal is to create ad revenue as unobtrusively as possible, similar to watching a movie. Yes, that's right, that awesome action movie you just watched contains massive amounts of advertising! Don't believe me?
Action Hero Man drives a Ford! That's an ad. Ford paid the studio money to make sure Action Hero Man drives a Ford car. Does this disrupt your ability to enjoy the movie? Not a bit! But somewhere in the back of your mind, your subconscious is now going "Man, Action Hero Man is so cool, I wish I had a car like his."
AHM drinks Coca-Cola. This is another ad. Coca-Cola paid the studio money to have AHM promote their beverage by drinking it on screen. Is this intrusive? No. AHM has to drink something during that heart-warming dinner scene with his estranged daughter, and the studio might as well get paid for it.
Now we start getting more subtle. Next time you re-watch the movie, check out the back ground of scenes. AHM owns a Sony television, with a Playstation 3.(Ad!) His coffee maker is a Mr Coffee.(Ad!) His washing machine is a GE.(Ad!)
"Product placement" is still advertising, and if done correctly, is almost "invisible" while still putting all of those brands into your subconscious. Oh, and one more example. Remember that awesome car chase scene with AHM and the bad guy? Check out the billboards in the background. More advertising! :P
And pretty much every computer is from Dell. (just pay attention to the logos on them, pretty sure NCIS and CSI's labcomputers are all Dell, the ones in Bones too probably, not to mention all the cop and spy series.) :P
And I'm pretty sure fashionistas will be able to pick out several well known clothing brands too.
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Spyware deliberately placed on a computer is something I will *never* condone.
All add counters should be server side only.
And all advertising should be immersion building or neutral...anything that takes away from the experiance is just not acceptable.
We are also never required to accept a specific advertiser or campaign.
Also please remember that product placement and properly managed advertising revenue will allow the free to play model to continue.
Will it really bother you to find a starbucks coffee cup or a can of pepsi sitting on an office desk in your mission...or does that actually tell you more about the person who you are tryin to rescue? How about cases of hammermill paper? An HP printer? How about a brand of car drving by? A jimmy John's bicyle rider? A billboard for tigerdirect?
The idea is that these things exist all around you, you can just let it exist as a subtle part of theworld OR there are insentives to OPTIONALLY take part in missions where a brand is featured in a way that does NOT detract from our world. I.e. protect the Motorola office building. Save the pizza boy. Get back the Colonel's secret recipe. (Kfc). You are not required to take these missions but you will get real life and/or in game rewards for doing so.
As for storefronts of whatever kind, you have the option to walk right by, if contacts which are occasionally inside a building with a real world logo on it bother you that much...don't take thatparticular mission even if it has nothing to do with the brand.