Titan Network

I'm just going to leave this here and check back in the morning when I have enough brain power to say my thoughts on it.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/10/a-mild-mannered-reporter-stop-digging-up-the-grave/

I have an email saved in my drafts. I spent some time going over it, and in reflection I've decided to share it here and encourage others to send their own feelings and thoughts in a positive and constructive manner :)

Quote
Hello,

I just wanted to send you an email thanking you for continuing coverage of CoH on Massively even after its end.

While I haven't given up hope, it's a different kind of hope than when someone dies and the desire for them to return to the living. When someone dies, they're gone. I've been through that. Its hard, it hurts, and its sad. Nothing can change it. When my girlfriend died it took me five years to stop crying every time I thought of her because the emotions were too intense. Nothing would bring her back, and eventually I was able to work past my feelings. But this situation is not the same.

Code can be executed again after it's been terminated. While what made CoH special was more than just its code, the people can return too. If not all of them, enough for it to be worth hoping and fighting for.

Our hope is also not the kind that demands or needs things to occur immediately. A lot of us have already accepted its probably not going to happen. It might not. But it could. It could, so we can't give up trying in ways that don't harm our abilities to continue living our lives. I've taken the closure of CoH to learn how to code, to get back to writing more. If CoH returned I would have less time for it, but i would be grateful all the same.

We aren't holding our breath. We aren't living in the past. We've moved on from the closure. That's not why we persist. That's not why twitter has so many of us showing #SaveCoH tags and #CallJack tags. it's because we hope for a future with CoH again. We hope for a future where City of Heroes is once again active.

The spirit of CoH is alive in those who remember it, those who were affected by it, those who loved it. That, might be able to be killed and never again resurrected. But it hasn't died. The Spirit of CoH is alive. It just needs a codebase to inhabit.

I know this was a long email, and I partially don't expect you to read it. I imagine it must have been emotional to compare our hope and grieving process with your own lost loved one. By no means is this email to call that loss illegitimate, or to bare you any ill will. I'm glad you were able to move on, just as I'm sad you had to in the first place. This email was to share how I, and many in the City of Heroes community feel and will continue to feel. You can call us crazy. You can say our hopes have no chance. We're okay with that.

Heroes don't need odds to be in their favor, and neither do Villains.

If you choose to drop continuing discussion of CoH from Massively, that's fine. It will be disappointing, but understandable. You can only report on new goings ons, right? If we do something that gets notice, I hope you'll report on it. That's all we can ask for.

Thank you for your honest posting, and I hope that you have a wonderful day.

Best Wishes,
*My real name is not important I put it in the real email*

I guess this is what Elliot was talking about when he said on his twitter feed that he hoped his CoH peeps didn't hate him after Wed (today).

He has  right to move on and "accept" things as they are. We also have a right to hope, even if it is small. Didn't this guy only join the last few months and join because it was shutting down? Or was that someone else? (I /think/ this is the one that covered the closing. And if he had only played till shut down it's easy to see his "acceptance".)

+1

If he wishes to move on, then I'll wish him the best of luck.  As for me, I believe I will wait and see.

I skimmed through that article because after the first paragraph I had a pretty good indication how it was going to go.    A third rate rant on a "news" site.   It's not journalism, and it's not his job to tell other people what to feel or how to behave. 

It's not mine, either, but then, I'm not masquerading as an internet reporter.    Or even a "blogger."

I'll consider my response as I finish this six pack, so as to be sure my response is lucid, well reasoned and inciteful. Wait: insightful. ;D

Quote from: goodtime on April 10, 2013, 11:34:35 PM
I skimmed through that article because after the first paragraph I had a pretty good indication how it was going to go.    A third rate rant on a "news" site.   It's not journalism, and it's not his job to tell other people what to feel or how to behave. 

It's not mine, either, but then, I'm not masquerading as an internet reporter.    Or even a "blogger."

Indeed, it's just an ill-informed rant - he must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel for something to write this week.

When we get CoH back, in one form or another, I'll make a point to bring this article up to him so that I can laugh in his face.

Quote from: goodtime on April 10, 2013, 11:34:35 PM
I skimmed through that article because after the first paragraph I had a pretty good indication how it was going to go.    A third rate rant on a "news" site.   It's not journalism, and it's not his job to tell other people what to feel or how to behave. 

It's not mine, either, but then, I'm not masquerading as an internet reporter.    Or even a "blogger."

But as of now most of internet, and therefore gaming (few mags still out, and those arent much better anyway) journalism, is done by bloggers like this.

That said, we can work with them to share our viewpoints to enhance the news and information gamers recieve. Blowing it off as "not journalism" is a slippery slope. Its editorial journalism. Most journalism has an opinion to it. This is just heavily in that direction.

You don't need to be CNN to be giving the news... some would argue you can't be CNN and give the news.  :roll:

Someone should remind Eliot of all the online games that have been rezzed, although, being a reporter, he should know this himself better than anyone.  Offhand, I can think of many, though:  Vanguard, Hellgate:  London,  A.P.B., Gods & Heroes, Saga of Ryzom (several times changing hands on that one no less!!), Asheron's Call 2 just recently, and this isn't counting ones that have been bought out from their original publishers without having to close down first, like Pirates of the Burning Sea, DDO and LoTRO.  And I'm sure there are more I'm not thinking of right now.

Granted, NCSoft doesn't usually sell off its closed-down IPs, but it is far from unheard of for games to be rezzed down the road.  And I have to admit that a small part of me just refuses to give up hope that if we put enough pressure on NCSoft, and it negatively impacts their long-term income from future games, that they will one day consider selling CoH, if only to repair a small part of the damage to their global reputation.

And Eliot should know above all things that playing other NCSoft games only validates and encourages their future bad behavior.  The only way to send them a message is to speak with your wallet, or in this case, the lack thereof.  People who continually give NCSoft money after they've been shafted are just enabling them to continue with their shoddy behavior.  That's why it has kind of surprised me that he's so big on Wildstar.  (It just looks like a cheesy WoW knockoff to me anyway, like Allods, but I'm just going by the screenshots.)

that article does not faze me any way. He obviously did not have his creative heart invested in our game as much as my friends and I did. His footprints only indented sand to where many of us have been around since launch firmly planted in the concrete of the world we co created. it's like a novice telling Beethoven not to approach music writing so passionately. bottom line there is no competent substitute and there is an audience in need of a proper auditorium.

Interesting article. Don't necessarily agree with this one, but hey, in the past, been willing to take this as a form of news and reporting on the status of COX on this site, and thus just because I  don't agree with them on this doesn't mean now they are now just a "news" site.

I don't see anywhere in there where he tells people how to feel or what to do but describes actions and thoughts of his that of course is not agreeable with others. It doesn't seem anymore of telling people how to feel or think anymore than the other articles there that was in favor of not giving up hope. Not every article about COX and the closing will be positive. That wouldn't be journalism. That would be reporting only one side and the feeling of one side.

The reality of it is that not even all players of COX feel as passionate about the closing and trying to bring it back as most people here. Hell, the petition only got about nearly 22,000 signatures out of the 100,000 players or more that played COX at one point or another. And any thing against our views shouldn't be viewed as mere rant. That is display prime example of not being able to accept any view outside that everyone should be fighting to bring the game back or they are just ranting or unicorning and shouldn't express their view. That is feeding into the already negative stereotype that people here in Titan cant accept differing views without dismissing it when many of us was getting irked when people couldn't accept our view that the game is worth saving. If we want people to accept or listen to our view we must be willing to listen to views that are different or else, why should they listen to views they don't agree with if we cant even do it ourselves without getting negative about it?

So what the man feels like there is no hope. That is how he feels. That is how many ex coxers feel. We feel there is plenty of hope. But this with us or you're something negative is not good. How are we ever going to convince a major corporation to at least come (back) to the negotiation table when every time someone say something we dont agree with, we have nothing but negative things and sometimes insulting things to say about it? That is not good for negotiation. Hell, I wouldnt want to nor dont see how any one can negotiate wit ha crowd like that when they want everyone to feel their pain, and their view but cant even in a respectful manner accept other views that may not be in line with their view?

Even major news companies, some may say this is a valiant effort while others may say that it's a lost cause. What? we are going to treat the one that is with us as gods while insulting the other one? Is that how low we are supposed to operate here?

Quote from: JaguarX on April 11, 2013, 12:02:51 AM
So what the man feels like there is no hope. That is how he feels. That is how many ex coxers feel. We feel there is plenty of hope. But this with us or you're something negative is not good.

But that's just it.  He's not just saying that he has no hope and that the "mature" thing to do is give up and move on, he's saying that we should also do the "mature" thing and give up and move on.  That isn't just disagreeing with us, that is against us.

It certainly is possible to disagree with us but not be against us, but that's not the case here.

Quote from: JanessaVR on April 11, 2013, 12:08:30 AM
But that's just it.  He's not just saying that he has no hope and that the "mature" thing to do is give up and move on, he's saying that we should also do the "mature" thing and give up and move on.  That isn't just disagreeing with us, that is against us.

It certainly is possible to disagree with us but not be against us, but that's not the case here.

But that phrase is no where in that article, not even "give up" or "move on" besides move on being used in the comment section. So I dont see anywhere where he said we should do the mature thing and give up and move on. or anything of the likes. 

Or maybe other keywords that you seen that gave that image?

I'm curious as to what he meant by this:

"I may be nervous about the "Plan Z" projects actually getting off the ground, but I have endless respect for the people working on them." (emphasis mine)

Quote from: JaguarX on April 11, 2013, 12:12:35 AM
But that phrase is no where in that article, not even "give up" or "move on" besides move on being used in the comment section. So I dont see anywhere where he said we should do the mature thing and give up and move on. or anything of the likes. 

Or maybe other keywords that you seen that gave that image?

Um...yes.  That would be these parts:

Quote
I'll be first to the party to point out that CoH is still worth discussing in hindsight, but that is hindsight. It's gone. I don't want it to be gone, I wish it wasn't gone, but it still is. And we as a community do not want to be the guys endlessly ranting about the fact that a game you liked shut down.

Those people are not fun to be around. They are the children who sit and endlessly pick at a scab, opening the wound over and over until they're left with a nasty scar stretching across most of their bodies. I already see people in comment threads railing about other superhero games failing to measure up, the same sort of endless grousing about a moment that's passed that you see in any thread about Star Wars: The Old Republic from old Star Wars Galaxies players.

We don't want to be those people. We need to let it go.
.....
Should we forget CoH? Of course not. But we should accept that it is, in fact, gone. Jack Emmert's comments don't undo that, nor will future mentions of the game. It's gone and we miss it, but we have to learn to live without it.

City of Heroes was a magnificent game, worthy of recollection, worthy of tribute, and worthy of contemplation. It's a game I miss. But it is gone, and we collectively need to accept that the time to hope for a reprieve has passed. There's discussing a departing friend and then there's comparing everything to that departed friend in unflattering terms.

And we -- as a community united by a game that is gone -- are better than that.

Which of those parts seem unclear on that score to you?

QuoteFact is, it's past time to stop hoping.

QuoteWe need to let it go.

QuoteA Mild-Mannered Reporter: Stop digging up the grave

If that's not telling us how we should feel ... :/


Now, if this was just a matter of "I've moved on" etc etc etc
versus some pretty inciteful digs
that'd be one thing.

I respect those who have moved on. That's their prerogative. And as I've said in the FB goups, and I'll say it again, everyone is different in choosing to handle things in their own way. Not in the way someone else thinks we should. And comparing CoH to the death of a loved one just doesn't sit right with me.

I applaud TonyV & Kitsulot for their replies, because I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have been able to articulate quite that well. At least not just yet.

I hate to sound cynical, but of course a Massively writer would like folks to move onto other games, perhaps becoming interested in another MMO, preferably one they write about. After all, there isn't much more they can write about CoH that hasn't been written. They want folks to visit their site often, read their articles, and look at their revenue-generating ads; they want folks to play live and upcoming MMOs, because those are the games that provide news and thus bring visitors to the site.

I just made a quite rational post there (I'm Denice Cook). 

I feel better now.   :P

And excellent post there, Tony, as usual!  You truly are a gifted writer.  You never fail to impress me.

Quote from: JanessaVR on April 11, 2013, 12:26:05 AM
Um...yes.  That would be these parts:

Which of those parts seem unclear on that score to you?

Ah I see how it could be taken as such.

But how is that, mostly replying to Tanklet, is much different from our end when saying "we should never give up hope, we should mail NCSoft capes and "stuff", We should contact Jack. Not even most posts about how people feel about this game is worded How I feel." It's how we should feel and how ncsoft dissed this community, and how ncsoft screwed us all, and how ncsoft did this to everyone. Even here is it rarely, I feel that NCSoft screwed me over.


Why is what he saying although opposite, telling us what we should do and not do, and such a big problem, when telling us what we should do and not do in the same manner but for us is not a problem and havent been taken as telling us what to feel and what to do?


That is why to me it's coming off as more hate because he disagree with the general consensus around here than actual hate that is he telling us what to do or not do. It seemed ok for that type of wording for those for us, but as soon as someone says something that may be opposite it's them trying to tell us what to feel and think. Looks like a double standard.

Not to mention the daily digs here towards NCsoft, is kind of backwards to be catching feelings when someone may or may not take a dig at us. I dont think this was a dig, just saying, but as many times as NCSoft cant even be mentioned without taking a pot shot at them but worried anything that may be a dig at us , which seems to be anyone that is moving on or saying they will move on. Sounds like as a whole we can dish it but cant take it. Another double standard. I mean if we dont want people taking digs or what might be taken as a dig at us, then maybe we should stop taking digs at other things. You know, treat other how we would like to be treated?

It's not even like the guy is on here, saying that stuff. He is on his own site, own article. If the shoe was on the other foot, there would be someone by now telling him to leave. Yet, many go over there to massively to express their view, which is opposite of here but if he came here, it would have been an even bigger issue. Another double standard.

Trying to not come off as rude or aggressive as that is not my point, but really this "We can talk about "certain people" anyway we choose wrath of god if anyone say anything negative about the movement anywhere on the net" double standard is not cool.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand your post.  Could you re-state that, a bit clearer?   ???

Quote from: JaguarX on April 11, 2013, 12:33:09 AM
Ah I see how it could be taken as such.

But how is that, mostly replying to Tanklet, is much different from our end when saying "we should never give up hope, we should mail NCSoft capes and "stuff", We should contact Jack. Not even most posts about how people feel about this game is worded How I feel." It's how we should feel and how ncsoft dissed this community, and how ncsoft screwed us all, and how ncsoft did this to everyone. Even here is it rarely, I feel that NCSoft screwed me over.


Why is what he saying although opposite, telling us what we should do and not do, and such a big problem, when telling us what we should do and not do in the same manner but for us is not a problem and havent been taken as telling us what to feel and what to do?


That is why to me it's coming off as more hate because he disagree with the general consensus around here than actual hate that is he telling us what to do or not do. It seemed ok for that type of wording for those for us, but as soon as someone says something that may be opposite it's them trying to tell us what to feel and think. Looks like a double standard.

I can see your point.

Pardon what will be the following multiple use of one word ....

I can see how when we say we, we mean those of us who still fight.

And I can also see how when we see someone else use we in the opposite, it's taken differently
*******************

The only thing I can say to that, is (at least in my case) we're encouraging those of us still fighting and not telling those who aren't, that they should be.

As I see it, Elliot (in a more public fashion than ours) isn't encouraging ... he's quite the opposite.

Yes, I know it's like slicing hairs through a mandolin, but with any movement and effort that has such emotions attached to it as this one does ... this is what to expect...

Okay... wait, didn't they already do a "get over it" article months ago?

Quote from: JanessaVR on April 11, 2013, 12:43:26 AM
I'm sorry, I don't really understand your post.  Could you re-state that, a bit clearer?   ???

Your part ends with "Ah I see how that could be taken as such."

Quote from: JaguarX on April 11, 2013, 12:47:04 AM
Your part ends with "Ah I see how that could be taken as such."

Okaaay...thanks for vaguing that up for me.

Quote from: Tanklet on April 11, 2013, 12:44:12 AM
I can see your point.

Pardon what will be the following multiple use of one word ....

I can see how when we say we, we mean those of us who still fight.

And I can also see how when we see someone else use we in the opposite, it's taken differently
*******************

The only thing I can say to that, is (at least in my case) we're encouraging those of us still fighting and not telling those who aren't, that they should be.

As I see it, Elliot (in a more public fashion than ours) isn't encouraging ... he's quite the opposite.

Yes, I know it's like slicing hairs through a mandolin, but with any movement and effort that has such emotions attached to it as this one does ... this is what to expect...

Of course. 

Also we have to expect, if not already know, that not everyone is on board with us. Right now, it's relatively small publicity. Not to mention, Titan Network and the people here are not the entire community. We are a part of the community but not THE community. Many out there that consider themselves part of the community are not with us here for various reasons, and when uses "we as a community" to me always meant the part of the community that they are a part of and not THE community or only here or even including people here. Many people of the community do agree with Eliot said. We should move on. Here, we wont. Many have, many are waiting to see COX come back and others dont give a crap. Many of those people played since beta, some more recent. Either way they are part of the COX community and have their own view and way of dealing with it.

I can see how his article may be a dig at us. But we must remember we are not the only ones of the COX community and thus everything about COX closing is not and probably shouldnt be taken as a dig directed towards us. But again, I see how it can be taken that way as this part of the community have to be visual and loud to reach the goal. The ones moving on, can simplely reach the goal by doing not a single thing if they chose to.

But my main worry is this, by going to all these articles that may not agree with our cause and coming off as being THE community is doing nothing but giving them easy ammo against us. And it's not good for encouraging people to keep fighting or not give up. It looks like, "hey you dont agree with us. We can come to your site and give our opinion that is different than yours but come to our site and give different opinion, you will find trouble." Trust me on this, it sounds weird, but people gain respect by letting people choose and letting people have their say just as we like to have our say. And letting people have their say sometimes it will be different. How many articles have massively written "for the movement?" A few or more. If I wasnt a COX player or outside looking in I would have thought that Massively is showing favoritism towards the movement and Titan network. One article expressing a differing view is an opportunity. It gets people that may be on the fence or dont know about it coming to the site. But when people go over there angry in the name of the movement, and basically flaming the author, that is not a good look and describes exactly what the author said in his article and what some take it as a jab at us here. Main point, maybe it wasnt in agreement with the movement, and some words may be viewed a dig but dont go over there making those statements true. Ok so the author have no hope that COX will come back. So what? He probably aiming at those that share his view. Hell, even many here said it will be slim chance and some of those people are supposedly as hopeful as hope can get.

What happens when and if this thing do go large? Are we going to be consume all the time chasing down articles and opinions that don't fit with the movement instead of moving forward?

Quote from: JaguarX on April 11, 2013, 01:08:12 AMBut my main worry is this, by going to all these articles that may not agree with our cause and coming off as being THE community is doing nothing but giving them easy ammo against us. And it's not good for encouraging people to keep fighting or not give up. It looks like, "hey you dont agree with us. We can come to your site and give our opinion that is different than yours but come to our site and give different opinion, you will find trouble." Trust me on this, it sounds weird, but people gain respect by letting people choose and letting people have their say just as we like to have our say. And letting people have their say sometimes it will be different.

From a more objective standpoint though, what I'm reading from that article isn't "Get over CoH." It's like we're being told to be good little sheep, forget what happened, and treat NCsoft like nothing ever happened. In our society, this is more or less what everyone expects to happen. Something that hurts a lot of people happens, the people flip out, they then lose interest and forget, and the 'bad guy' gets away with it to do the same thing to someone else. I'm using 'bad guy' loosely here, because I'm not accusing NCsoft of spite.

But ironically the kind of short-term attention span that Eliot is 'expecting' of us, is exactly the kind that prevents change from ever happening in society. It's almost like a disguised call to complacency.

I don't think that there is anything he says that's precisely wrong. I wouldn't even dispute any of his points. My Friday night group misses the game, but none of them are here. A couple check savecoh.com from time to time, but the info there doesn't seem to be as "fresh" as it is here.

That said, what I see is just Eliot getting irritated by the innundation he received from people here. Maybe he is one of the people who just gets worn out when surrounded by "too much" enthusiasm. Whatever the case, I will continue to read the column, but I won't be sending him "tips." I don't think he's "joined the other side" or that he's not still friendly, but he's moved on.

(I was not one of the ones who e-mailed him. I'm not saying that to try to say "it wasn't my fault," like some 10 year old who got the dog so riled up that he knocked a lamp over. I was waiting for some kind of word from our resident media types and those who have methods of contacting Jack. I'm right there with any call to action, but, when one of the aforementioned cooler heads says, "hang on while I try this thing first," I'm willing to wait.)

I just wanted to throw in here that there *has* been an official response from Jack Emmert on one of his game's forums, according to a Massively poster.  I will quote it here:




This is the official word from Cryptic-Studios community manager Trailturtle on the game's official boards:


"Since both Jack Emmert and I have been getting questions about what he said at PAX East, we had a quick email conversation to figure out what went down (I wasn't at the panel).

Jack's got an emotional attachment to CoH, and when he said he'd take a call from NCSoft, it was an off-the-cuff remark born from his love of the game. If NCSoft gave him a call, he'd be happy to talk to them, but that's all that there is -- there aren't any plans at Cryptic or PWE to bring back City of Heroes. There's no plan, just a wistful hope that it gets another issue someday".

Sheesh, he would've been better off keeping that quiet. NCsoft won't call now, even if they were slightly considering it. He's let them off the hook.

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on April 11, 2013, 01:15:14 AM
From a more objective standpoint though, what I'm reading from that article isn't "Get over CoH." It's like we're being told to be good little sheep, forget what happened, and treat NCsoft like nothing ever happened. In our society, this is more or less what everyone expects to happen. Something that hurts a lot of people happen, the people flip out, they then lose interest and forget, and the 'bad guy' gets away with it to do the same thing to someone else. I'm using 'bad guy' loosely here, because I'm not accusing NCsoft of spite.

But ironically the kind of short-term attention span that Eliot is 'expecting' of us, is exactly the kind that prevents change from ever happening in society. It's almost like a disguised call to complacency.

Exactly.

But overall what choices do people have? They have on one end, the corporation that will take them everything they are worth and wont give a blink of remorse, then on the other side you have angry rally with us or against us people or seemingly so especially to people that may not be as enthused. many dont like being ripped off, but on the other hand, they dont want to be surrounded by a group that is "excited" that may turn on em because they dont share that excitement. What do many people do instead? Forget about it, do nothing, move on and just accept it as that is the way the world work.  We can be that way out.

W

Me personally I want the community back again. THE community. So far it seems so divided. You have people here, you have people that moved on, you have people that don't like Titan, you have people that are indifferent, you have people that chose the games, and you have people not sure what or who to choose. Of course everyone wont come back, especially the ones that despise Titan but let them despise Titan. But lets face it, when the project Zs come out, which will be a couple more years, who do we want playing? Only COHTitan members? As much as I like you guys, I wouldn't mind having more especially in a MMO game. Or are we doing this for THE community? We wont get the community back by being only inviting to people that share our hope. Unless that is what we are going for, the 20,000 odd maybe more maybe less that are here and forgetting the rest of the community. I hope that the game(s) can go beyond the original community and add players from all over to THE community. But we have to understand not all of them played COX and even care if COX come back or not but if we jump on them and bite us, they'll remember Titan as the ones that jump on them and bite them for speaking their mind like every other bloke on the internet and probably wont want anything to do with anything Titan push Plan Z or anything they endorse if they was thinking about it.

I give him credit for waiting until now to say something like this. A lot of people were singing this tune on September 1st.

But it'd have been much better off if he just left it alone and didn't try to poo in people's cereal just because he personally has given up.

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on April 11, 2013, 01:22:25 AM
Sheesh, he would've been better off keeping that quiet. NCsoft won't call now, even if they were slightly considering it. He's let them off the hook.

If they were going to sell, they would have sold to Bryan Clayton and crew right before the shut down.  Did you read Matt Miller's Gamasutra interview that posted today?  I seriously don't believe NCSoft will ever call anyone of its own volition.

They'll have to endure consistent reminders about their horrible business practices to the point where their future launches are negatively impacted, for anyone else to be able to contact them and get a successful buyout onto the bargaining table.  They have to want to shed their bad reputation even more than they want to bury their IPs for us to ever have a chance of getting that IP back in a lawful fashion.

I give him credit just for saying it. He's been a friend, so this couldn't have come easily for him.

I'm curious just exactly how many emails he got from outside his usual contacts list...

Quote from: dwturducken on April 11, 2013, 02:17:16 AM
I give him credit just for saying it. He's been a friend, so this couldn't have come easily for him.

I'm curious just exactly how many emails he got from outside his usual contacts list...

yuup.

Quote from: Perfidus on April 11, 2013, 01:33:34 AMBut it'd have been much better off if he just left it alone and didn't try to poo in people's cereal just because he personally has given up.

There's been a rather disturbing trend I've been seeing in society lately that I can only describe as an anti-naivety movement. At first it just seemed like it was about religious issues, but more I've been seeing it spreading to ANY kind of hope for ANYTHING that the calculated odds don't favor. It was happening on the official forums quite a bit. Having hope for saving CoH was equated to believing in the Easter Bunny, and hope was described as a cancer that needed to be extinguished. Since that time, I've been seeing it spring up randomly in all sorts of internet communities. It's rather frightening.

Yeah, the official forums got downright toxic towards the end. It was as if someone gave the Talons of Vengeance keyboards.  :P

Quote from: FlyingCarcass on April 11, 2013, 02:58:46 AM
Yeah, the official forums got downright toxic towards the end. It was as if someone gave the Talons of Vengeance keyboards.  :P

Yeah it did get a bit chaotic. As if people just took off the gloves and reasoning and started swinging at everyone and anything.

There is a reason why I tended to avoid all but the red-name posts near the end on the forums.

He got annoyed at all the emails and tweets about the Cryptic thing.  So he lashed out in the form of a blog post.

Quote from: Kemphler on April 11, 2013, 03:09:58 AM
There is a reason why I tended to avoid all but the red-name posts near the end on the forums.

Oh yeah. I just avoided the place overall.

It seems the red names left or rather the red name seemed swamped.

I find it sullenly sad that adults cant even be mature enough to police their own self and control their own behavior. Sad, very sad. That on one hand I can understand what Tim noticed about the society of no hope. It's like unless there is someone laying down the law, enforcing the law, telling us exactly how to behave and basically forcing us to behave, we are mere animals in a zoo running amok. Like we cant take care of ourselves and do what is right without some entity waving a stick threatening to bash us if we dont get in line. While it's a mere forum, it showed me a piece of society that can reach so low even in a game that is known within game circles as one that is friendly casual and mature and usually of age, and how people act when things go south.
As an ex-soldier, there were many there that I'm glad I never had the pleasure of sharing a fox hole with when crap hit the fan or else I probably would have had to shoot them myself.  I couldn't help to think, "Really? Come on this is getting absolutely absurd. And kind of embarrassing when trying to go around saying how great the community is while on the forum that anyone passing through cared to see, people, too many people are acting a plum fool. I remember poking fun at WoW a bit with how many immature people I could come across a day, but after that, I realized it doesn't matter what game, people are like that everywhere in game and out. There is no escape from them, and thus a slight feeling of no hope for society as a whole. I wonder what is going to happen if something real and dire do happen?

But yet, somehow, as illogical as part of my brain is telling me it is, I have hope for society with no reason to. I have hope that this game will come back even in the light that NCsoft probably wont budge. I don't need to hope that we will succeed because I KNOW we WILL succeed. We must succeed.

And it's a little late now but one common misconception about hope. Pessimism is not opposite of hope. And hope are optimism are not even the same thing. Opposite of hope is despair. So by definition you can be a pessimist and still have hope while you can be an optimism and still be stuck in despair. But you can still have optimism and hope at the same time.

Quote from: Sajaana on April 11, 2013, 03:27:12 AM
He got annoyed at all the emails and tweets about the Cryptic thing.  So he lashed out in the form of a blog post.

I thought it was agreed we as a whole wasnt going to do that? Or was it outside sources?

But if that is the case, this could show why it's not always a good idea to email bomb everything.

Quote from: Menrva Channel on April 10, 2013, 11:09:48 PM
He has  right to move on and "accept" things as they are. We also have a right to hope, even if it is small. Didn't this guy only join the last few months and join because it was shutting down? Or was that someone else? (I /think/ this is the one that covered the closing. And if he had only played till shut down it's easy to see his "acceptance".)

No.  His first article about the game was Oct 14th, 2009 about the Halloween Event that year.  His MMR column started Jan 27, 2010.  (Edit: Massively started it's coverage Oct 7, 2007.  Massively's first article ever on anything, in their archive, is Sept 27th, 2007)

And comments like this is exactly the crap he is talking about.  Your first assumption that he wasn't a "true believer", a Johnny come lately, a lookie-loo reporter, someone who wasn't a player simply because he stuck a pin in your hope balloon.  You are like someone in stage 4 grasping at faith healers, untested herbal treatments and an all fruit diet.

If you haven't read it yet, read the Gamastutra article about the closure of the game and the attempted buyout.  It shows how hopeless the situation is resurrecting the game, as it was, truly is.

------------------
[rant]

It's about time that Massively, which supported the game for years, not just the last few months as other sites did, if that, threw a bucket of cold water on the zealots who in some cases are unintentionally giving the image of anyone who played CoH in the end and supported the calls to save it a, pardon the expression, nutbar.

Everyone take a freaking step back.  Take a deep breath.  It's gone.  The game that we loved, and played, some of us including me for years (I date back to Aug 2004, pre Issue 2) is no more.  And no I'm not going to insert the dead parrot sketch here but in all honesty some of you are in as much denial as the clerk in that.  I'll support any super hero game that is closer to the feel of CoH than the two we currently have.  I support ICON and the pigg diving to find all the untapped resources the game has.  The custom maps people have shown using the list of map pieces and IDs.

But to crucify Eliot and Massively because they said what, 4+ months after the closure, needed to be said is downright petty and as narrow minded as the Westboro Baptist Church.  If someone disagrees with your POV they are evil, the enemy, a target.  I know first hand since my e-mail is public here as it was in the old forums.  I got my fair share of vitriol dripping hate mail because of my posts here but I didn't give a rat's behind because I felt that it was just a few bad apples, the extremists that every group end of having.

Hate NCSOFT as much as you want.  Put CoH on the altar to worship as the one true MMO.  Believe it was a conspiracy to prop up ArenaNet or Carbine or paying for a baseball team (they are 0-7 so far this year) or it was a Nexon plot (Nexon, Nemesis, both start with N).  Whatever you do support the efforts of the groups trying to "recreate" the magic that was this game.  Maybe one of them will attract a sugar daddy to fund them for real.  But please stop pulling the good name of CoH into the mud by being the "crazy" commenter on all those other websites.  There is a difference between posting and harassing and I think some are starting to cross the line.

[/rant]

Ya, there's an extremely high chance it's gone.  Still going to warn people about NCSoft games whenever I have an excuse to.  And I'll keep doing that unless they let CoH go to a company that can take care of it.

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 11, 2013, 05:20:57 AM
No.  His first article about the game was Oct 14th, 2009 about the Halloween Event that year.  His MMR column started Jan 27, 2010.  (Edit: Massively started it's coverage Oct 7, 2007.  Massively's first article ever on anything, in their archive, is Sept 27th, 2007)

And comments like this is exactly the crap he is talking about.  Your first assumption that he wasn't a "true believer", a Johnny come lately, a lookie-loo reporter, someone who wasn't a player simply because he stuck a pin in your hope balloon.  You are like someone in stage 4 grasping at faith healers, untested herbal treatments and an all fruit diet.

If you haven't read it yet, read the Gamastutra article about the closure of the game and the attempted buyout.  It shows how hopeless the situation is resurrecting the game, as it was, truly is.

------------------
[rant]

It's about time that Massively, which supported the game for years, not just the last few months as other sites did, if that, threw a bucket of cold water on the zealots who in some cases are unintentionally giving the image of anyone who played CoH in the end and supported the calls to save it a, pardon the expression, nutbar.

Everyone take a freaking step back.  Take a deep breath.  It's gone.  The game that we loved, and played, some of us including me for years (I date back to Aug 2004, pre Issue 2) is no more.  And no I'm not going to insert the dead parrot sketch here but in all honesty some of you are in as much denial as the clerk in that.  I'll support any super hero game that is closer to the feel of CoH than the two we currently have.  I support ICON and the pigg diving to find all the untapped resources the game has.  The custom maps people have shown using the list of map pieces and IDs.

But to crucify Eliot and Massively because they said what, 4+ months after the closure, needed to be said is downright petty and as narrow minded as the Westboro Baptist Church.  If someone disagrees with your POV they are evil, the enemy, a target.  I know first hand since my e-mail is public here as it was in the old forums.  I got my fair share of vitriol dripping hate mail because of my posts here but I didn't give a rat's behind because I felt that it was just a few bad apples, the extremists that every group end of having.

Hate NCSOFT as much as you want.  Put CoH on the altar to worship as the one true MMO.  Believe it was a conspiracy to prop up ArenaNet or Carbine or paying for a baseball team (they are 0-7 so far this year) or it was a Nexon plot (Nexon, Nemesis, both start with N).  Whatever you do support the efforts of the groups trying to "recreate" the magic that was this game.  Maybe one of them will attract a sugar daddy to fund them for real.  But please stop pulling the good name of CoH into the mud by being the "crazy" commenter on all those other websites.  There is a difference between posting and harassing and I think some are starting to cross the line.

[/rant]

basically.

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 11, 2013, 05:20:57 AMBut please stop pulling the good name of CoH into the mud by being the "crazy" commenter on all those other websites.  There is a difference between posting and harassing and I think some are starting to cross the line.
[/rant]

Surely you mean mud wrestling. I do it in the name of justice. I always ask myself, would Statesman or Manticore (the characters) post this?

And then I click the post button.  :P

Always ask yourself - what would Calvin Scott do?

Quote from: Golden Girl on April 11, 2013, 07:00:47 AM
Always ask yourself - what would Calvin Scott do?

That traitor?  Hah, I betrayed him and turned him in.  We Loyalists from Powers Division ask a different question - what would Marcus Cole do?

All Hail the Emperor!   ;D

Quote from: JaguarX on April 11, 2013, 01:08:12 AM

But my main worry is this, by going to all these articles that may not agree with our cause and coming off as being THE community is doing nothing but giving them easy ammo against us. And it's not good for encouraging people to keep fighting or not give up. It looks like, "hey you dont agree with us. We can come to your site and give our opinion that is different than yours but come to our site and give different opinion, you will find trouble." Trust me on this, it sounds weird, but people gain respect by letting people choose and letting people have their say just as we like to have our say. And letting people have their say sometimes it will be different. How many articles have massively written "for the movement?" A few or more. If I wasnt a COX player or outside looking in I would have thought that Massively is showing favoritism towards the movement and Titan network. One article expressing a differing view is an opportunity. It gets people that may be on the fence or dont know about it coming to the site. But when people go over there angry in the name of the movement, and basically flaming the author, that is not a good look and describes exactly what the author said in his article and what some take it as a jab at us here. Main point, maybe it wasnt in agreement with the movement, and some words may be viewed a dig but dont go over there making those statements true. Ok so the author have no hope that COX will come back. So what? He probably aiming at those that share his view. Hell, even many here said it will be slim chance and some of those people are supposedly as hopeful as hope can get.

What happens when and if this thing do go large? Are we going to be consume all the time chasing down articles and opinions that don't fit with the movement instead of moving forward?

Honestly, from what I've seen ... and even to the point of this most recent Massively article, those of us in the community commenting to these threads are doing a bang up job of being fair, civil, and sincere.

Elliot was expecting a flame war, but doesn't look like he got one.

I understand your worry. However, I disagree in the mindset that the worry should be reason for inaction or waiting and seeing. That IMO is admitting defeat. Am I saying that CoH has any bigger chance of coming back? Nope. But it has no chance, if everyone simply took the stance of 'sit back and watch.'

This country (which I'm sure you know) was built on change, and revolution. It's what we do. If I don't like something, I complain, and send my complaints to the right channels until it's made right, or I'm tired of complaining. I'm not tired yet. As a consumer, we also have every right to represent ourselves, and our displeasure.

Now, do we have extremists? Yes. Do they do more harm than good oft times? Yes. But, from what I've seen, there are more of us with a level head on their shoulders than not, quite civily expressing opinion supported by facts, in a manner I find admirable.

Quote from: Tanklet on April 11, 2013, 10:52:31 AM
Honestly, from what I've seen ... and even to the point of this most recent Massively article, those of us in the community commenting to these threads are doing a bang up job of being fair, civil, and sincere.

Elliot was expecting a flame war, but doesn't look like he got one.

I understand your worry. However, I disagree in the mindset that the worry should be reason for inaction or waiting and seeing. That IMO is admitting defeat. Am I saying that CoH has any bigger chance of coming back? Nope. But it has no chance, if everyone simply took the stance of 'sit back and watch.'

This country (which I'm sure you know) was built on change, and revolution. It's what we do. If I don't like something, I complain, and send my complaints to the right channels until it's made right, or I'm tired of complaining. I'm not tired yet. As a consumer, we also have every right to represent ourselves, and our displeasure.

Never said anything about inaction. What is it with either it has to be in your face all the time everywhere vs inaction? It's not a light switch.

What I'm saying is this. Of course we can express displeasure, respresent ourselves, and such but also at he same time while we have the right to do that, so do they. Many of us complained dearly on the forums about non hopefuls forcing their point of view down our throats, yet I think in a way many of us are doing the exact same thing with this point of view. All I'm saying just as much as we have a right to express our point of view others should be shown that same right. That is civil, which isnt seem to be the case in many cases, especially on other websites but at the same time, it dont seem to be welcomed here. I seen the reaction when an opinion is expressed like Eliot on this site. It sure isnt welcoming. But yet we expect other site to listen and respect our view. What I'm saying is if we expect people to respect our view all over other sites and media, we should do the same instead of flaming them and telling them to leave or asking that condescending question of "why are you here?" Yet, if I was to go on Massively comment section and ask, those that feel hope, "Then why are you here on an article that is talking about no hope?" It will be a problem. It's like as he described that we dont want to become.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

I have no problem with Eliot posting what he believes. I encourage it in fact, let's get past the fear and doubt and find the heart of the matter. The game is closed, we all agree on that. However, it is not a certainty that it has to remain so. It is a 100% fact that if we do nothing - it will stay gone.

We have 2 teams working on restoring a private server. We have 2 teams working on 2 new games based off the CoH style. We have another team working on getting the game pitched to Google - BY GOOGLE'S REQUEST. We have a panel of 6 top game developers all agreeing CoH shouldn't have closed - dammit!

Personally I think publicity is never bad.

You all probably know someone who a year after CoH launch was saying "That game is old, move on already, get something newer and shinier!"  This guy at Massively is one of those people.  Except now he's taking broader license with that because the game is much older now, and it's been closed down.

That's all it is.

No, it really isn't. This guy's written kindly and with a friendly ear about SaveCoH and its sibling projects. He's saying, not, "give up and shut up," but rather, "don't make a fool of yourself and make everybody who supports you look bad by being 'that guy' who won't shut up about it even when it's inappropriate." He's even more focusing on the point that we haven't REALLY got anything new to latch onto, and that leaping on this phantom hope like it's a certain life raft only makes everybody associated with this effort look pathetic and desperate.

He could be wrong, but he's not trying to tell people to give up. Just to not be visibly unrealistic in ways that embarrass everybody else associated.

Again, he could still be wrong. But he's not insulting people.

Quote from: Ironwolf on April 11, 2013, 02:31:20 PM
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

I have no problem with Eliot posting what he believes. I encourage it in fact, let's get past the fear and doubt and find the heart of the matter. The game is closed, we all agree on that. However, it is not a certainty that it has to remain so. It is a 100% fact that if we do nothing - it will stay gone.

We have 2 teams working on restoring a private server. We have 2 teams working on 2 new games based off the CoH style. We have another team working on getting the game pitched to Google - BY GOOGLE'S REQUEST. We have a panel of 6 top game developers all agreeing CoH shouldn't have closed - dammit!

Personally I think publicity is never bad.

Yes.

Frankly, I think he's right. It was a random comment, and I just knew we'd over-react. We always knew there were buyers for CoH. The problem was NCSoft's refusal to sell. Nothing wrong with looking for ways to continue to pressure them to sell the IP but - what he was describing? I was afraid of that.

Quote from: P51mus on April 11, 2013, 05:25:40 AM
Ya, there's an extremely high chance it's gone.  Still going to warn people about NCSoft games whenever I have an excuse to.  And I'll keep doing that unless they let CoH go to a company that can take care of it.

Now this I can get behind.

If nothing else, even if COH is gone forever, the saveCOH movement  SHOULD continue on.  Perhaps not only as a way to get COH back, but rather as a consumer effort to effect changes within the gaming community.   Simply to let the gaming companies know that we are not all lemmings following their lead.

Quote from: Segev on April 11, 2013, 02:54:33 PM
He could be wrong, but he's not trying to tell people to give up. Just to not be visibly unrealistic in ways that embarrass everybody else associated.

I agree with your take on it, and this quote sums it up nicely. So I'm not trying to single out Eliot or anyone else with this next statement, I'm just curious.

When a few of us start "throwing around" overzealous optimism, a reporter comes out within days with a prominent article about how that subgroup of players are embarassing the rest of us, and should dial it down a notch. But for roughly the last six months a few of us have been "throwing around" an endless stream of childish insults and bitter ranting anywhere they could type it. To my knowledge, nobody ever wrote a prominent article calling out that subgroup of players and accusing them of embarassing the rest of us.

What's up with that?

Quote from: Triplash on April 11, 2013, 03:20:12 PM
What's up with that?

Indeed, what's up with that?

I would argue that that sub-group is actually part of the larger sub-group - to the minds of article-writers - being called out for embarrassing the community as a whole. The sudden upsurge in unrealistic hope/expectations brings greater attention to the vitriolic childishness of others, in no small part because said vitriol bubbles up near and around those wild hopes, becoming, itself, more visible and further tainting the already somewhat wild-eyed, hope-filled comments.

Alright, look! (Cuz putting it that way makes you so receptive to what's coming next, right? ;) )

Did we overreact to an off the cuff remark? Maybe. Did we run clamoring for hope where there was none? Maybe. Did it come at a time when we need a jolt, a shot of hope? Yes!

It's been more than four months since the game closed. I don't know how many people have left here, but I know that, in the last week, I've seen post from people who've seemed to be missing for a while. Maybe it goes nowhere, but, for a week, we were motivated and excited. Maybe NC$oft doesn't call Jack, but it looks like it's inspired us to start thinking and trying again. 

Quote from: dwturducken on April 11, 2013, 03:53:12 PM
looks like it's inspired us to start thinking and trying again.

When its said and done that is what matters.

It is unreasonable to think that NCSoft might just open up a conversation with a past partner?

It is unreasonable that this partner might say - I am not interested in buying the game but I know someone who might?

I think it is unreasonable not to try and lead NCSoft to doing what we would like.

On another thread, there was talk of throwing wallets. I'm not really present enough over there to say for sure, but it's certainly worth pointing out the will and enthusiasm we have as a reply to Trail Turtle's response from Jack.

Quote from: Ironwolf on April 11, 2013, 03:59:10 PM
It is unreasonable to think that NCSoft might just open up a conversation with a past partner?

It is unreasonable that this partner might say - I am not interested in buying the game but I know someone who might?

I think it is unreasonable not to try and lead NCSoft to doing what we would like.

But are we doing that by insulting them at ever turn and treating and or viewing them as an evil villain that needs to be defeated?

Looks to me like Eliot Lefebvre's written something of a self-cathartic piece there - the fact that he brings up how he dealt with his own father's passing makes it pretty clear he's chosen his own path of how to handle the closure of CoH.

I can understand why he's gone off on a bit of a rant : because he's reached his own balancing point he's expecting others to do the same, and with that expectation in mind, he seems almost to take personal offence to the fact that some folk still have the hope he left behind.

Jealousy perhaps? Or sympathy? Possibly both. Losing CoH wasn't easy for any of us, and because we're all individuals, we all must deal with it in our own way. Eliot's found his way, and I think he's simply trying to pass on what he learned along that way. That's laudable, but it overlooks the fact that some of us did not, and will not accept that the loss of CoH was final.

He's right to say that he had to accept his father's passing because 'the alternative was dumb', but a video game is not a person. In a very real way, CoH still exists completely unchanged on each and every one of our hard drives. The game is not currently active, sure, but it certainly is NOT dead in the way people die. As a digital entity, CoH is merely currently dormant, so it's perfectly understandable for many people to outright refuse to accept that CoH is 'history'.

Eliot's good people, and he knows he's stuck his neck on a block here to an extent, because he's fully expecting rants and flames back at him. So while he and we may differ in how we regard the future of CoH, we should never forget that the only reason he stuck his neck out at all is because he loved CoH just as much as we do.

I personally feel bad for him.  I can only imagine how crazy the e-mails he received must have been and the volume must have been staggering to make him feel he needed to write what he did.  It's not like COH is currently active so it's not really something I'd think would be worth his time writing about...he is supposed to write about active games I'd assume that helps keep his job best. 

I'm guessing the target audience of his piece were those who wrote in that he's worried have unrealistic expectation and he's hoping to get them back to reality.  Hopefully he doesn't get a ton of unnecessary nasty e-mails for sharing his feelings on this matter.  He seems like a good guy, has been plenty supportive of COH over the years, and doesn't really seem to deserve a ton of grief over this article.  So if you are one who must e-mail/comment defensively regarding this story, please consider the good he's done too before sending your response to him and/or posting in the comments section of his article. 

Quote from: jeangray on April 11, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
I personally feel bad for him.  I can only imagine how crazy the e-mails he received must have been and the volume must have been staggering to make him feel he needed to write what he did.  It's not like COH is currently active so it's not really something I'd think would be worth his time writing about...he is supposed to write about active games I'd assume that helps keep his job best. 

I'm guessing the target audience of his piece were those who wrote in that he's worried have unrealistic expectation and he's hoping to get them back to reality.  Hopefully he doesn't get a ton of unnecessary nasty e-mails for sharing his feelings on this matter.  He seems like a good guy, has been plenty supportive of COH over the years, and doesn't really seem to deserve a ton of grief over this article.  So if you are one who must e-mail/comment defensively regarding this story, please consider the good he's done too before sending your response to him and/or posting in the comments section of his article.

Yeah

Quote from: Segev on April 11, 2013, 03:33:00 PM
(good points)

Quote from: Turjan on April 11, 2013, 04:04:01 PM
(good points)

Yeah that makes sense. When you're forced to move on from something, especially when there are negative feelings involved, sometimes just seeing someone who can still be positive about it can trigger a harsh response. It's not even deliberate, it's simple instinct. "If he didn't give up, does that mean I was wrong to?" Moving on when there's no choice is one thing, but if something comes along later to make it seem like there was a choice (realistic or not) then it can make you feel like you abandoned it. And nobody wants to feel like they quit on something they loved. Worst part is, that's an unwarranted response; moving on is just how some people deal with things, it certainly doesn't make it wrong. But emotions have never made much sense. That's part of what makes us human.

I'd hazard a guess that his article was tinted by such emotions. I also agree that it was most likely a direct response to all the comments coming from people who are still strongly driven by their own emotions over the whole thing.

Basically I agree with jeangray... his articles over the years were probably some of the biggest advertising City got. He flew the same skies we did, guys. Let's cut the man some slack.

I've had to come to accept that CoH is not coming back. It is hard, and frankly, I keep wishing I were wrong.

Want to know why TPP hasn't done a kickstarter yet? Because deep down we hoped we wouldn't need to, that something would come and some miracle would happen. We have come to accept that will not happen. So we must move onto the next step, making sure that we can play again, in our own game, which no corporate master, no bureaucrat, can take away from us.

Quote from: downix on April 11, 2013, 05:26:31 PM
I've had to come to accept that CoH is not coming back. It is hard, and frankly, I keep wishing I were wrong.

Want to know why TPP hasn't done a kickstarter yet? Because deep down we hoped we wouldn't need to, that something would come and some miracle would happen. We have come to accept that will not happen. So we must move onto the next step, making sure that we can play again, in our own game, which no corporate master, no bureaucrat, can take away from us.

People can say I went bat mess but I agree with this about the part of making our own game. I think that is our best hope and best chance in the long run
Even if they sold coh to any random company with a check or turn the lights on there is nothing to stop them from putting us in the exact same situation now. Instead if ncsoft (possible if they sold) we will griping about another company. If they turn lights back on there is no stopping them from doing a repeat even if its because not as many players came back as they thought would return.

With our own game we control and unlike many of the suits running things we know what it is like to lose a game and not look at it as mere numbers on a graph. Not to mention show that you need a fancy corporation and millions to make an idea. Just an idea the will and know how and it can be done. It might inspire a movement fat beyond ncsoft and coh closing. After a while the corporations will have no choice but take notice.
Hell might even have ncsoft knocking at the door trying to buy one of the games. We can tell them that we have exhausted all options in finding a Suitable buyer.

Quote from: downix on April 11, 2013, 05:26:31 PM
I've had to come to accept that CoH is not coming back. It is hard, and frankly, I keep wishing I were wrong.

Well, there are those of us here that don't accept that - and we'll keep fighting.

If I move on it will be with Plan Z.  People that know what I HAD, so they know what I WANT!  I am using Plan Z to generically point at both projects.  I can waste time on mine sweeper, but to be honest I miss the community the most.  Being on the forums here reminds me that mature and dare I say professional  ;) played my favorite game and you folks are what I miss the most.

Quote from: MindBlender on April 11, 2013, 06:08:59 PM
If I move on it will be with Plan Z.  People that know what I HAD, so they know what I WANT!  I am using Plan Z to generically point at both projects.  I can waste time on mine sweeper, but to be honest I miss the community the most.  Being on the forums here reminds me that mature and dare I say professional  ;) played my favorite game and you folks are what I miss the most.

Well mostly mature. :p.

(Just lightly ribbing ya.)

Quote from: JaguarX on April 11, 2013, 04:02:24 PM
But are we doing that by insulting them at ever turn and treating and or viewing them as an evil villain that needs to be defeated?

Keep in mind that attitude towards them is based almost solely on their actions - they're viewed as villains because what they've done is typical of a villain. If that changes - if they do the right thing and so much as acknowledge that other people exist - I will be willing, eager, even, to change my attitude to reflect that.

Quote from: Quinch on April 11, 2013, 06:52:11 PM
Keep in mind that attitude towards them is based almost solely on their actions - they're viewed as villains because what they've done is typical of a villain. If that changes - if they do the right thing and so much as acknowledge that other people exist - I will be willing, eager, even, to change my attitude to reflect that.

*nod* *nod*

Yep but going back to what Wolf said about trying to lead ncsoft into doing what we would like them to do. If that is the view we hold towards them it probably means that is how people will approach them which would be counterproductive in trying to convince them. Its like your worse enemy is dogging at every corner insulting you everywhere but at the same time saying they are trying to get you to sell your house. Would you happily run to negotiate with them because they say they will be your friend if you sold the house to them they will be your friend but until then they will hate you and ensure they let everyone know? Me personally id tell them to stay off my porch and even if I was selling they wouldn't be on the top of my phone list.

But overall sounds like what they did was typical corporation. They didn't kill anyone or level a city, actual brick/ mortar city. They discontinued a product. Like corporations sometime do.

Quote from: Quinch on April 11, 2013, 06:52:11 PMKeep in mind that attitude towards them is based almost solely on their actions - they're viewed as villains because what they've done is typical of a villain. If that changes - if they do the right thing and so much as acknowledge that other people exist - I will be willing, eager, even, to change my attitude to reflect that.

This is what happens when you don't have transparency.

Take a look at what happened with Disney and the LA shutdown. There was pandemonium for about... 3 days? And by then, we knew why Disney was doing it, we learned about their overall videogame situation, we learned what was being done with the games that were in production, and the impact it would have on future Star Wars games.

We may not like it. But we got an honest answer. Maybe we technically got one from NCsoft, but they waited SO LONG to even toss a single breadcrumb (and a vague one, at that), that it made the whole thing seem much less believable.

I happen to agree with Father Xmas, Segev, and Mr. Lefebvre.  (Like the first, I was subscribed, if not always playing, since shortly before Issue 2; and like the last, the whole thing has acquired additional depth/context/resonance due to losing a parent just a little over a year ago.  Yeah, 2012 was a fun year for me.)
Does that mean I should stop posting here, because I'm not sufficiently committed to the cause?

I've loaded up SEGS and logged in dozens of times, even though I have the graphics bug.
If any of these projects bears fruit, I'll be right there too.
And I'm not going to tell anyone to stop hoping (and have taken issue with some in Massively comments who have said that, and worse things).
But I personally moved from "will be disappointed if it doesn't" to "will be pleasantly surprised if it does" a while back.

I think it would be a miracle if NCSoft would ever sell COH or reopen the game itself.

That being said, I would be happy to be proven wrong.  ;D

My main hope is that Phoenix or Heroes and Villains-- or someone else-- comes up with a game that shares more with COH than the other games I've been able to play since it shut down.

And I do think that by keeping the pressure on NCSoft, we may make future companies think twice about how-- or when-- to shut down a  game.

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 11, 2013, 05:20:57 AM
No.  His first article about the game was Oct 14th, 2009 about the Halloween Event that year.  His MMR column started Jan 27, 2010.  (Edit: Massively started it's coverage Oct 7, 2007.  Massively's first article ever on anything, in their archive, is Sept 27th, 2007)

And comments like this is exactly the crap he is talking about.  Your first assumption that he wasn't a "true believer", a Johnny come lately, a lookie-loo reporter, someone who wasn't a player simply because he stuck a pin in your hope balloon.  You are like someone in stage 4 grasping at faith healers, untested herbal treatments and an all fruit diet.

If you haven't read it yet, read the Gamastutra article about the closure of the game and the attempted buyout.  It shows how hopeless the situation is resurrecting the game, as it was, truly is.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, apparently I confused him with someone else. There was a blogger who covered the shut down and did a really nice job of it. I thought that blogger said that he had only joined near the end. I might have just mixed up some facts. (Seriously, I don't remember the name of the blogger, I just remember the coverage and finding it really nice.)  I have no problem with people who don't want to hope and who want to move on. I also sent him a respectful email and said that he had a really well written article. Even if I don't agree with his perspective, he voiced his opinion well. I also /thanked him/ because even if this isn't a view I have, it still brings the game back up. I also read the Gamastutra article. It's great he's decided to accept things as they are and in his conclusion I felt that he wasn't all "rawr get over it" and acknowledged that many people loved the game. He also said that it should be remembered for what it was. Clearly that is someone who respects the community at large. (As an after thought, I've read some of his comments to other posters and he has been very respectful in replying and giving a little more about his feelings about the game. I particularly like his reply to @jonno28nz. [Like, seriously--that comment has endeared him to me on so many levels]. I think ultimately he shares the realistic view many of us have.)

I feel I am taking this pretty realistically. I go to work every day and move on with my life as usual. I've even tried other MMOs. I understand the chances of getting the game back are slim, but I see nothing wrong in hoping anyway. Please be more considerate in your posts and do not make assumptions about me or my views. (I did take that post a little personally even if it was not intended. I assume that it was meant to be an outburst at those who are more passionate in their approach.) I asked a question because I wasn't sure of my facts. (And felt that it was a logical conclusion that if he hadn't been playing long it would be easier to let go of. ) I wasn't attacking him. I just wanted to clarify that.

Quote from: JanessaVR on April 11, 2013, 05:36:16 PM
Well, there are those of us here that don't accept that - and we'll keep fighting.

Keep in mind that "acceptance" is not the same as "quitting." :)

Little side note about that article.

*ahem* I dont think telling Massively to stop writing about us is a good idea. One, I think in some cases we brought it to their attention, 2) that is about the biggest piece of publicity exposure we have at the moment. 3)It's just not nice after all the articles they covered about us.

*steps off stump, kills a tapir and drags it off to the nearest thicket.*

Quote from: JaguarX on April 12, 2013, 12:29:53 AM
Little side note about that article.

*ahem* I dont think telling Massively to stop writing about us is a good idea. One, I think in some cases we brought it to their attention, 2) that is about the biggest piece of publicity exposure we have at the moment. 3)It's just not nice after all the articles they covered about us.

*steps off stump, kills a tapir and drags it off to the nearest thicket.*

I agree.  Although it really isn't anyone's place to tell anyone else how to feel or what to think, let alone blanket-criticize their mental health, Eliot and Massively gave CoH a lot of coverage over the years, more than most other sites ever would have. 

It doesn't change my mind a bit.  I'm kinda surprised one person would think that somehow their opinion would.  But whatever.  To each his own.

But I wouldn't bother giving Massively any more tidbits about CoH.  And Eliot's little rant was a bit ill-timed what with poor Matt Miller giving that three-page interview over at Gamasutra the same day.  But again, to each his own.  I think the professional developers are more aghast at CoH's closing to begin with, though, as evidenced also in that PAX East panel with Dave Georgeson, etc.

Quote from: Surelle on April 12, 2013, 12:40:48 AM
I agree.  Although it really isn't anyone's place to tell anyone else how to feel or what to think, let alone blanket-criticize their mental health, Eliot and Massively gave CoH a lot of coverage over the years, more than most other sites ever would have. 

It doesn't change my mind a bit.  I'm kinda surprised one person would think that somehow their opinion would.  But whatever.  To each his own.

But I wouldn't bother giving Massively any more tidbits about CoH.  And Eliot's little rant was a bit ill-timed what with poor Matt Miller giving that three-page interview over at Gamasutra the same day.  But again, to each his own.  I think the professional developers are more aghast at CoH's closing to begin with, though, as evidenced also in that PAX East panel with Dave Georgeson, etc.

yup but I think one of our members did just that as what I described about a few minutes ago.

Was poking around seeing if anyone I knew or recognized looked borderline that I may be able to nudge gently to our side. Then I saw something that may not be good even though it came from only one member.

I can't begin to tell you how hard it was for me to restrain myself when I clicked the reply button in that thread. What a freakin asshole.

Quote from: JaguarX on April 12, 2013, 12:42:07 AM
yup but I think one of our members did just that as what I described about a few minutes ago.

Well....again, opinions are opinions and everyone's got a right to theirs.  And people have the right to express themselves.

Welcome to Amerrrrreeeka, the land of the free!   8)

Quote from: Noyjitat on April 12, 2013, 12:42:57 AM
I can't begin to tell you how hard it was for me to restrain myself when I clicked the reply button in that thread. What a freakin asshole.

I could tell. I understand the anger but breath for a moment, woooosaaaaaa. ;D We might need that site for later.

Publicity is thin right now.

Quote from: Surelle on April 12, 2013, 12:44:48 AM
Well....again, opinions are opinions and everyone's got a right to theirs.  And people have the right to express themselves.

Welcome to Amerrrrreeeka, the land of the free!   8)

yup yup. Might be over reacting. Sometimes I get off work but cant stop working. After I finish off this Tapir I'm going to play a little CO to relax for once.

Quote from: JaguarX on April 12, 2013, 12:42:07 AM
yup but I think one of our members did just that as what I described about a few minutes ago.

I'm probably better off if I don't go look.

Quote from: Surelle on April 12, 2013, 12:40:48 AMBut I wouldn't bother giving Massively any more tidbits about CoH.  And Eliot's little rant was a bit ill-timed what with poor Matt Miller giving that three-page interview over at Gamasutra the same day.  But again, to each his own.  I think the professional developers are more aghast at CoH's closing to begin with, though, as evidenced also in that PAX East panel with Dave Georgeson, etc.

Yeah, that was REALLY bad timing. The PAX news hit first and Massively probably got spammed before the Miller article was up. And then Massively probably read the Gamasutra article when they got around to investigating the PAX rumors, and then thought, "What the heck are these crazy people talking about?"

I can't even begin to list the number of times stupid things like that have happened in my life.

Quote from: dwturducken on April 11, 2013, 11:57:24 PM
Keep in mind that "acceptance" is not the same as "quitting." :)

What NCSoft did was unacceptable.

It's sad that we lost another one of our community but it's his choice to move on as it is inevitable. Some of us here are still hoping that City of Heroes will be saved by some company (including me) but his opinions and thoughts does not need to cloud our own.

Gah...for anyone who read this post before I snipped a chunk of it...I just don't feel right even mentioning my own losses in comparison to the shut down of City of Heroes. Just doesn't sit well with me. (Feels like I'm cheapening my memory of them.)

City of Heroes was (and IS) a thing with a switch that was turned off--a switch that also has an "ON" function.

The switch should be turned back ON. Either by NCSoft or a buyer. Not merely because it's possible, but because by doing so, the world would be made BETTER. Instantly. Friendships would rekindle, families separated by time zones and distance would reunite, joy would be felt. That's worth it. It was worth it yesterday. It'll still be worth it tomorrow.

Time hasn't changed the fact that there are still servers in a room that have an ON/OFF switch.

Quote from: Captain Electric on April 12, 2013, 01:45:10 AM
Gah...for anyone who read this post before I snipped a chunk of it...I just don't feel right even mentioning my own losses in comparison to the shut down of City of Heroes. Just doesn't sit well with me. (Feels like I'm cheapening my memory of them.)

City of Heroes was (and IS) a thing with a switch that was turned off--a switch that also has an "ON" function.

The switch should be turned back ON. Either by NCSoft or a buyer. Not merely because it's possible, but because by doing so, the world would be made BETTER. Instantly. Friendships would rekindle, families separated by time zones and distance would reunite, joy would be felt. That's worth it. It was worth it yesterday. It'll still be worth it tomorrow.

Time hasn't changed the fact that there are still servers in a room that have an ON/OFF switch.

I give you long odds that the server software is still loaded and the player database is intact.  Heck I wouldn't be surprised if after four months they've "misplaced" all the live/I24 source code and raw art assets. 

The physical servers have likely been re-purposed for another game, existing or future beta.  The developer's rigs have all been packed up and sent to Carbine or ArenaNet with their drives wiped.  You aren't going to leave that much expensive equipment simply idle now, be serious.

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 12, 2013, 03:46:54 AM
I give you long odds that the server software is still loaded and the player database is intact.  Heck I wouldn't be surprised if after four months they've "misplaced" all the live/I24 source code and raw art assets. 

The physical servers have likely been re-purposed for another game, existing or future beta.  The developer's rigs have all been packed up and sent to Carbine or ArenaNet with their drives wiped.  You aren't going to leave that much expensive equipment simply idle now, be serious.

Storage space is pretty cheap though, especially compared to the costs of running a business like NCSoft. They could keep everything CoH related archived indefinitely without really costing much, but who knows with NCSoft.

Put my two cents in.    Even if this doesn't help...it's time for online gamers to stop "accepting" that their favorite game can be taken from them at any time.   Fans of other kinds of games don't have to do that.   Attitudes can change if you don't "accept" being treated like a temporary pile of money.

Quote from: P51mus on April 12, 2013, 05:36:37 AM
Storage space is pretty cheap though, especially compared to the costs of running a business like NCSoft. They could keep everything CoH related archived indefinitely without really costing much, but who knows with NCSoft.

I know it's cheap and trivial but the logistics of keeping track of it I'm worried about.  It's the "but I thought you had the drives?" moment.  If whatever reason that kept them from agreeing to the buy out also is the sticking point with selling the game to anyone else (possibly some legal who ha), will someone there actually care about keeping track of it?

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 12, 2013, 06:35:11 AMI know it's cheap and trivial but the logistics of keeping track of it I'm worried about.  It's the "but I thought you had the drives?" moment.  If whatever reason that kept them from agreeing to the buy out also is the sticking point with selling the game to anyone else (possibly some legal who ha), will someone there actually care about keeping track of it?

Heh, now THERE's a scenario I hadn't thought of.

"Why aren't we selling this IP again?"

"Because we can't find the source code."

"Oh... yeah, good reason. Keep ignoring calls."

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on April 12, 2013, 06:39:19 AM
Heh, now THERE's a scenario I hadn't thought of.

"Why aren't we selling this IP again?"

"Because we can't find the source code."

"Oh... yeah, good reason. Keep ignoring calls."

That made me chuckle.

Although I don't agree with Elliots sentiment, in defense of a fellow journalist:

1) The piece was filed under 'opinion', and that's exactly what he's writing - his opinion. It isn't fact, it isn't 'news', there's no interview, no piece of information he'd found.  It's what he thinks and how he feels.

2) You can't stop him writing about us.  The worst we can do is not talk to him or give him quotes or tips.  There's no copyright in news - just look at the other sites who ran the gamasutra article again, just reporting the fact that Gamasutra had run the article.  I'm not saying we SHOULD do these things.  He knows we need him and the publicity he can give us, a lot more than he needs us. A quick browse of these boards, could easily give him (or any other journo) enough information to pick up on what we're planning to do, when, and hundreds of quotes that are already in the public domain.

3) Mailbombing the media just isn't a good idea.  I know people are keen to get our story/idea out there, but from experience, if I have deadlines to meet and if 200 people sent me a 'write about this! ' email,  I would probably not have been too impressed either.  I know by our nature we're a bit of a multiheaded beast, and there will always be CoH players who aren't at this site, and will act independent of whatever advice is given here.  But harrassing people who can write and tell the world how we're behaving isn't a good plan if we want to keep them sympathetic to us.

Like I said,  I don't agree with his opinion, but I think that a) cutting our nose off to spite our face with Elliot would probably just drive home his opinion that we're losing the plot,  b) we couldn't really anyway, even if we tried and c) doing things that annoy journalists can backfire on us, on the CoH campaign and on CoH badly, and we should do what we can not to put ourselves in this position again.

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on April 12, 2013, 06:39:19 AM
Heh, now THERE's a scenario I hadn't thought of.

"Why aren't we selling this IP again?"

"Because we can't find the source code."

"Oh... yeah, good reason. Keep ignoring calls."

I'm thinking more of an "Ark of the Covenant" moment where all the materials associated with the game is crated up, warehoused and then the paperwork is misplaced.

Quote from: Menrva Channel on April 11, 2013, 11:27:59 PMI particularly like his reply to @jonno28nz. [Like, seriously--that comment has endeared him to me on so many levels]. I think ultimately he shares the realistic view many of us have.)

Yeah, I was really glad to get that response too. Eliot has been a great help to any efforts to save CoH and his initial article was a bit jarring. But from his comments it's just a call for people to be realistic, I'd think that he'd still share the word and lend support if a truly genuine prospect of getting the game back comes up.

[EDIT: Fixing quote box syntax ~Agge]

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 12, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
I'm thinking more of an "Ark of the Covenant" moment where all the materials associated with the game is crated up, warehoused and then the paperwork is misplaced.

Congratulations, FatherXmas, in your last few comments, you've finally entered the garden of wild speculation along with the rest of us. You're just watering a different plant a few feet over.

You've been a bastion for the facts (which I appreciate despite the frustration involved). But you're just being lazy now. You're just being cynical and making stuff up. I like you, don't take this the wrong way. But...

"Yeah? Well...well uh...YEAH WELL I bet they LOST the data, CAPTAIN!!!"

Come on, now. Really? :roll:

NCSoft needs to sell.

Quote from: Turjan on April 11, 2013, 04:04:01 PM
Looks to me like Eliot Lefebvre's written something of a self-cathartic piece there - the fact that he brings up how he dealt with his own father's passing makes it pretty clear he's chosen his own path of how to handle the closure of CoH.

I can understand why he's gone off on a bit of a rant : because he's reached his own balancing point he's expecting others to do the same, and with that expectation in mind, he seems almost to take personal offence to the fact that some folk still have the hope he left behind.

Jealousy perhaps? Or sympathy? Possibly both. Losing CoH wasn't easy for any of us, and because we're all individuals, we all must deal with it in our own way. Eliot's found his way, and I think he's simply trying to pass on what he learned along that way. That's laudable, but it overlooks the fact that some of us did not, and will not accept that the loss of CoH was final.

He's right to say that he had to accept his father's passing because 'the alternative was dumb', but a video game is not a person. In a very real way, CoH still exists completely unchanged on each and every one of our hard drives. The game is not currently active, sure, but it certainly is NOT dead in the way people die. As a digital entity, CoH is merely currently dormant, so it's perfectly understandable for many people to outright refuse to accept that CoH is 'history'.

Eliot's good people, and he knows he's stuck his neck on a block here to an extent, because he's fully expecting rants and flames back at him. So while he and we may differ in how we regard the future of CoH, we should never forget that the only reason he stuck his neck out at all is because he loved CoH just as much as we do.

+1

Quick reply: Some guy on an MMO website decides to "move on."

That's nice. But we are in no way obligated to obey what he wants.

This is just like anti-CoXers on the official boards telling a grief-stricken, punch-drunk game population that we needed to "move on" because we were not this upset when Auto Assault closed, so we have no right to be upset now. Roffle! Really?! Because I and only I will decide when and what my response to any given thing will be.

Also an immediate family member dying is in no way equivalent to a game dying. None of us will get off this planet alive. But what happened to CoX was sheer senseless maliciousness; we know this because they are unwilling to sell. That's outright malice. Some guy's father dying isn't an act of malice, it is natural law, adjudicated by no company, and inescapable.

I have been through the loss of an immediate family member and therefore speak from experience. 

Quote from: Illusionss on April 12, 2013, 02:15:54 PM
Quick reply: Some guy on an MMO website decides to "move on."

That's nice. But we are in no way obligated to obey what he wants.

I don't even read it as a "move on, already!" plea, but a "please take a reasoned, realistic stance when discussing possible hope" request. He's not spitting on anything. He's not questioning people's desire to see the game return. He is saying he doesn't expect it to. He is asking as a personal request that people not jump up and down in rabid excitement at the barest straws of hope, but instead examine such offered tidbits to determine if there's really anything likely to be there.

Quote from: Illusionss on April 12, 2013, 02:15:54 PMNone of us will get off this planet alive.

Astronauts will disagree with you. ^_~

Quote from: Rae on April 12, 2013, 07:16:44 AM3) Mailbombing the media just isn't a good idea.  I know people are keen to get our story/idea out there, but from experience, if I have deadlines to meet and if 200 people sent me a 'write about this! ' email,  I would probably not have been too impressed either.  I know by our nature we're a bit of a multiheaded beast, and there will always be CoH players who aren't at this site, and will act independent of whatever advice is given here.  But harrassing people who can write and tell the world how we're behaving isn't a good plan if we want to keep them sympathetic to us.

The trouble with even trying to prevent this though, is it would just lead to the exact opposite extreme: the word doesn't get out at all.

Nobody who sent an email knows that someone else did. And if we assume that someone else already has it covered, we risk running into the "stone in the road" scenario, where everyone leaves the issue alone based on the assumption that someone else will handle it. Not only is this a poor assumption to make in the everyday world, but it's also the exact opposite of how superheroes think.

And then there's the question of, would the PAX incident even have been reported without the mass of emails? Would one email have been sufficient? Everything I know about the media tells me no. In many ways, media is a democracy. They try to give what the majority wants to see, because that maximizes profit. If all of us who care, don't inform them that we care, then how will they know if a story is worth running?

Quote from: Captain Electric on April 12, 2013, 08:29:30 AM"Yeah? Well...well uh...YEAH WELL I bet they LOST the data, CAPTAIN!!!"

Come on, now. Really? :roll:

Its not outside the realm of possibility though.

I seem to remember SOE losing the original code for SWG, sometime after the NGE fiasco happened.

Quote from: Captain Electric on April 12, 2013, 08:29:30 AM
Congratulations, FatherXmas, in your last few comments, you've finally entered the garden of wild speculation along with the rest of us. You're just watering a different plant a few feet over.

You've been a bastion for the facts (which I appreciate despite the frustration involved). But you're just being lazy now. You're just being cynical and making stuff up. I like you, don't take this the wrong way. But...

"Yeah? Well...well uh...YEAH WELL I bet they LOST the data, CAPTAIN!!!"

Come on, now. Really? :roll:

NCSoft needs to sell.

Nope, actual personal experience.  A little over a decade ago I was working at a company on a project with around a half a dozen other developers.  The company had a couple of financial missteps, like betting the wrong way on the new Euro (we sold internationally so hedging overseas currency is SOP), the Y2K fix slowed production for 3 months because because the SAP migration from test to live didn't go smoothly, etc.  So they brought in new upper management and decimated the R&D department (and sales and training and service and manufacturing, it was company wide) including the product I was working on.  We had been developing a new version of a 10+ year old fairly successful product, from the ground up to embrace the "modern" computer of the day with loads of memory, huge hard drives and a proper Windows GUI.  They decided the current version, one which was developed as a DOS app running under a home brewed DOS 32-bit extender with virtual memory support but then hacked into a barely Windows program that took no advantage of a modern OS and computer, was good enough and could be sold for a few more years so they laid off the entire group (who most have worked on the product for 5 or more years) and mothball development.

They misplaced all that new code we worked on.  The SOP of the IT department is to wipe the drives of every laid off employee (because we are all evil corporate terrorists as soon as we are laid off) by the end of the day and since our group ran our own code archive server, just like every other project, they mindlessly wiped it as well.  The backup tapes had been packed up and sent off site and they couldn't find them (likely they were mistakenly sent with all our paper records to an industrial shredder).  While they could rebuild the existing product, they still had the source for that, about 6 man years worth of new code development went into the great bit bucket in the sky.

I still know people who work there, after 10 years of mothballing they finally started to rewrite the code, from scratch, again.

So don't underestimate the stupidity, well accidental stupidity, of an organization.  Everyone was just doing what they were suppose to do and FUBAR happens.

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on April 12, 2013, 05:04:51 PM
The trouble with even trying to prevent this though, is it would just lead to the exact opposite extreme: the word doesn't get out at all.

Nobody who sent an email knows that someone else did. And if we assume that someone else already has it covered, we risk running into the "stone in the road" scenario, where everyone leaves the issue alone based on the assumption that someone else will handle it. Not only is this a poor assumption to make in the everyday world, but it's also the exact opposite of how superheroes think.

And then there's the question of, would the PAX incident even have been reported without the mass of emails? Would one email have been sufficient? Everything I know about the media tells me no. In many ways, media is a democracy. They try to give what the majority wants to see, because that maximizes profit. If all of us who care, don't inform them that we care, then how will they know if a story is worth running?

Hmmm. Interesting good point. But in case of massively I think they stated at one point to slow to email bombing to them. Not to mention it seems even after they ran articles they continued to get bombed which one looks as if they the bombers are not looking at the stuff they write and come off as not being able to be satisfied.

I think the issue that it seems that some people don't know when to stop the bombing.
Which can be hard to gauge in itself because the receiver usually can't or won't reply to every email coming in.

Then it depends on the topic. Many topics that make the big news don't happen through mass emails. Sometimes its merely a person emailing them something that look interesting and then due to it being reported it becomes popular. Not to mention how they view email bombing the slant could be "a small group valiently standing up to a bully corporation against all odds." Or get them annoyed at being bombed and saying " Crazed game addicts. More at 6"

Quote from: Illusionss on April 12, 2013, 02:15:54 PM
None of us will get off this planet alive.

I'm a transhumanist with a cryonics contract (2 actually, primary and backup) - so speak for yourself as I plan on sticking around.   

So it's business as usual with me when I expect our game to rise from cold storage as well.  :)

Quote from: JanessaVR on April 12, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
I'm a transhumanist with a cryonics contract (2 actually, primary and backup) - so speak for yourself as I plan on sticking around.   

So it's business as usual with me when I expect our game to rise from cold storage as well.  :)

Heeeeeeeyyy! I heard rumors about those people existing but never even see one communicate in person. That is cool stuff. We might need a few of y'all at least in the future so the historians can't pretty up the time period and make it look like everything was all harmony with no worries in one to two hundred years. You can set the record straight.

Me when I buy the farm the farm is good ole fashioned bought for good.. If I wake up in 2080 id be pissed and probably go chewing on people's brain.

Quote from: JanessaVR on April 12, 2013, 05:49:24 PM
I'm a transhumanist with a cryonics contract (2 actually, primary and backup) - so speak for yourself as I plan on sticking around.   

So it's business as usual with me when I expect our game to rise from cold storage as well.  :)

Well, good luck with that. I have frozen steaks in my freezer this minute, and they look pretty dead to me.

Quote from: Illusionss on April 12, 2013, 09:03:57 PM
Well, good luck with that. I have frozen steaks in my freezer this minute, and they look pretty dead to me.

Just give them some green color, and they will ask for more.

Quote from: Illusionss on April 12, 2013, 09:03:57 PM
Well, good luck with that. I have frozen steaks in my freezer this minute, and they look pretty dead to me.

Janessa is referring to vitrification, not freezing.

http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/vitrification.html

Quote from: Captain Electric on April 12, 2013, 09:22:53 PM
Janessa is referring to vitrification, not freezing.

http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/vitrification.html

Indeed, thank you.  However, not wishing to hijack this thread (any further), if anyone wishes to open up a thread on this topic in General Discussion, I will be happy to expound on it there at greater length for the curious.

Quote from: JanessaVR on April 12, 2013, 09:48:10 PM
Indeed, thank you.  However, not wishing to hijack this thread (any further), if anyone wishes to open up a thread on this topic in General Discussion, I will be happy to expound on it there at greater length for the curious.

And I don't want to hijack it either but I do want to say the old saying "You learn something new everyday".

Back to our regularly scheduled programing...

Well I think it's time to start reporting the assholes in that thread. I've stopped responding to the nonsense... I think you probably see who I'm talking about.

Quote from: Noyjitat on April 13, 2013, 01:07:50 AM
Well I think it's time to start reporting the assholes in that thread. I've stopped responding to the nonsense... I think you probably see who I'm talking about.

You can't let trolls get to you.  All you can do is respond with your own points in a rational way, and then move on.  Even though the troll might never change, other people that read your post might get something positive out of it.

Quote from: Surelle on April 13, 2013, 03:37:02 PM
You can't let unicorns get to you.  All you can do is respond with your own points in a rational way, and then move on.  Even though the unicorn might never change, other people that read your post might get something positive out of it.

Exactly. There's relatively little chance of changing a unicorn's mind. If they're doing it for fun, then they're getting a kick out of making you angry and they'll never stop. And if they're doing it out of stubbornness, then there's nothing you can say because they're simply not listening.

What you have to do is talk, not to the unicorn, but to the other people reading it. Be positive and polite for them, because they're your best chance for a point to be heard. But if they see you acting just as negatively or rudely as the unicorn, they're not going to care which side is which. Because people who aren't involved in the conversation only see two sides: "worth listening to" and "not worth listening to".

Quote from: Triplash on April 13, 2013, 04:16:14 PM
Exactly. There's relatively little chance of changing a unicorn's mind. If they're doing it for fun, then they're getting a kick out of making you angry and they'll never stop. And if they're doing it out of stubbornness, then there's nothing you can say because they're simply not listening.

What you have to do is talk, not to the unicorn, but to the other people reading it. Be positive and polite for them, because they're your best chance for a point to be heard. But if they see you acting just as negatively or rudely as the unicorn, they're not going to care which side is which. Because people who aren't involved in the conversation only see two sides: "worth listening to" and "not worth listening to".

Basically.

What is that saying.

"Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

and or

"Never wrestle with a pig—you get dirty and the pig likes it"

Quote from: JaguarX on April 13, 2013, 04:45:06 PM
Basically.

What is that saying.

"Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

and or

"Never wrestle with a pig—you get dirty and the pig likes it"

I prefer:
"Never argue with an idiot -  they will drag you down to their level and trump you with experience"

Quote from: downix on April 13, 2013, 05:07:49 PM
I prefer:
"Never argue with an idiot -  they will drag you down to their level and trump you with experience"

Nice one

I dont think it s mostly negative. The writer think there is close to no hope of the game being relauched. Well, he surely is right. And the call of Emett doesn't change a thing.

The point is that, even if there is very little hope in succedeed, there still be some reason to keep up the fight. The first is that little hope is not really the same as no hope. Second is that may let designer think that there is place for a spiritual successor for City of Heroes (there are some SWG-like which are being developped, and the IP was far more important for SWG that it is for COH, i think). And third, it support the fan base game which will eventually succeed in produced good spiritual successor.

On the Emett claim, now. The more I think of it, the more I m convince that Emett dont plan at all on relaunching the game. At the worst, it is a very in appropriate try to make public relation. Old player of COH will remains the poll that was made to let people think that cryptic care about what they were wanting. At the best (and i incline to this), Emett is only interesting in the IP. We know he love super heros games. CO is actually not performing well, aand with Neverwinter almost launched, he may be thinking that it is time to start thinking about a successor to CO (he may even already have convinced PWE to support the game). When the IP of the most successful super heros game, whose he has some strong bond to, is no longer in use, it seems a legitimate move to try to get a hold on it. I think that Emett want to talk with NCsoft about COH2 and not about COH.

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 12, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
I'm thinking more of an "Ark of the Covenant" moment where all the materials associated with the game is crated up, warehoused and then the paperwork is misplaced.

I was thinking more of NCsoft execs melting when they looked at the code.

(https://imageshack.us/a/img24/8399/facepsf.jpg)

Quote from: Triplash on April 13, 2013, 04:16:14 PM
Exactly. There's relatively little chance of changing a unicorn's mind. If they're doing it for fun, then they're getting a kick out of making you angry and they'll never stop. And if they're doing it out of stubbornness, then there's nothing you can say because they're simply not listening.

What you have to do is talk, not to the unicorn, but to the other people reading it. Be positive and polite for them, because they're your best chance for a point to be heard. But if they see you acting just as negatively or rudely as the unicorn, they're not going to care which side is which. Because people who aren't involved in the conversation only see two sides: "worth listening to" and "not worth listening to".

Yep. This is exactly what I keep in mind while I'm "responding" to people who use flimsy, full-of-holes-and-leaking anecdotal evidence to explain why saving CoH is a bad idea. "Well a loved one died last year, so we should accept City of Heroes is gone for good." ... "Well one time these IT guys at my job lost ALL the data, so don't hold out hope for City of Heroes either!"

When I respond to those posts, it's not so much an opportunity to talk sense into the author, as it is an opportunity to mention to everyone else, for the millionth time, why it is still worth saving City of Heroes.

Yea! I'm a unicorn.

Well there isn't a bunch of idle servers with the code on them just waiting to be turned on again either as you suggested.

Quote from: FatherXmas on April 14, 2013, 06:29:33 AM
Yea! I'm a unicorn.

Well there isn't a bunch of idle servers with the code on them just waiting to be turned on again either as you suggested.

It is highly unlikely at this point, right.

No, that was harsh. You're not a unicorn. It was anecdotal though, you make it sound like every IT department in the world might be run by Azuria; and therefore, we should give up based on...yeah no. In this of all places, you can't expect people to mince words when you constantly rain on their parade. It doesn't matter if you're doing it with facts and figures or cats and memes. If someone writes a post saying how hard it was to lose City of Heroes, there you are with a chart or graph for them, like you're helping the blind to see. Don't take that as an attack. My best friend in the world has been doing this crap to me for years and I like him just fine. Doesn't mean I poop flowers every time he thinks he's right.

Look at this experiment. (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8252.0.html) I wanted to know how slim our odds really are. I wanted to know how many of us are left and motivated to fund an advertising campaign, since we need to raise thousands of dollars for one. I decided to measure this in mouse clicks. How many clicks does it take for each individual to fund an advertising campaign? I don't know. They may have to click on their bank website a few times before clicking around on PayPal. They have to pull their credit card out of their wallet and type numbers in. They may have to get out of their chair if their wallet is sitting somewhere around their house. So it's an indirect measurement; but we can imagine that some typing and several clicks would be involved.

My experiment required two clicks. Maybe a few more for those without a Massively account.

I posted in several high-traffic communities/threads/channels for CoHers where they've ended up, and lured 24 participants in 24 hours. That's no flash mob. Just imagine what a mail-in campaign really looks like behind the scenes.

Here's another way to imagine our odds. Let's say I fly 24 people with me to NCSoft's headquarters and stand in front of their building for 24 hours, wearing Atlas Park 33 t-shirts and holding torches. (Unlit, of course--don't think we'd make it 24 hours otherwise.) Do you think they'd turn the servers back on or sell the game? We have 24 people, after all.

Yeah, me neither.

See, I'm not blind. Odds are that you'll get to tell all of us that you were right; but you'll never be able to convince people that City of Heroes wasn't worth fighting the odds for. It improved on many peoples lives. And if there was even a small chance of saving a game (or a book, or a TV show, or a device, or a person) like that, one shouldn't always listen to the guy whispering doubts in their ear. It's good to measure your chances when you're going up against the odds; lingering in doubt, not so much.

Quote from: Captain Electric on April 14, 2013, 09:03:13 AM
No, that was harsh. You're not a unicorn. It was anecdotal though, you make it sound like every IT department in the world might be run by Azuria; and therefore, we should give up based on...yeah no. In this of all places, you can't expect people to mince words when you constantly rain on their parade. It doesn't matter if you're doing it with facts and figures or cats and memes. If someone writes a post saying how hard it was to lose City of Heroes, there you are with a chart or graph for them, like you're helping the blind to see. Don't take that as an attack. My best friend in the world has been doing this crap to me for years and I like him just fine. Doesn't mean I poop flowers every time he thinks he's right.

Look at this experiment. (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8252.0.html) I wanted to know how slim our odds really are. I wanted to know how many of us are left and motivated to fund an advertising campaign, since we need to raise thousands of dollars for one. I decided to measure this in mouse clicks. How many clicks does it take for each individual to fund an advertising campaign? I don't know. They may have to click on their bank website a few times before clicking around on PayPal. They have to pull their credit card out of their wallet and type numbers in. They may have to get out of their chair if their wallet is sitting somewhere around their house. So it's an indirect measurement; but we can imagine that some typing and several clicks would be involved.

My experiment required two clicks. Maybe a few more for those without a Massively account.

I posted in several high-traffic communities/threads/channels for CoHers where they've ended up, and lured 24 participants in 24 hours. That's no flash mob. Just imagine what a mail-in campaign really looks like behind the scenes.

Here's another way to imagine our odds. Let's say I fly 24 people with me to NCSoft's headquarters and stand in front of their building for 24 hours, wearing Atlas Park 33 t-shirts and holding torches. (Unlit, of course--don't think we'd make it 24 hours otherwise.) Do you think they'd turn the servers back on or sell the game? We have 24 people, after all.

Yeah, me neither.

See, I'm not blind. Odds are that you'll get to tell all of us that you were right; but you'll never be able to convince people that City of Heroes wasn't worth fighting the odds for. It improved on many peoples lives. And if there was even a small chance of saving a game (or a book, or a TV show, or a device, or a person) like that, one shouldn't always listen to the guy whispering doubts in their ear. It's good to measure your chances when you're going up against the odds; lingering in doubt, not so much.

As long as NCSoft knows that people are interested in the property, they will keep the price sky-high, and keep the strings attached which will prevent a sale.

The irony here is that the more people fight to keep NCSoft aware that yes, they want this property, the less likely they will be to sell it.

Quote from: downix on April 14, 2013, 03:58:21 PM
As long as NCSoft knows that people are interested in the property, they will keep the price sky-high, and keep the strings attached which will prevent a sale.

The irony here is that the more people fight to keep NCSoft aware that yes, they want this property, the less likely they will be to sell it.

When there is one supply+ bunch of demand=Sky high price.

When there is one supply+ little demand= super low price.


Supposed we pull back, and let them come to us (and us I mean them going to find a buyer whether it's Google or Disney or what.). When the demand goes down, the price tend to drop. But when you have the likes of Google even looking interested, then they could keep the price as high as they want with a yarn ball full of strings. because in their mindset we came to them and want what they have not them came to use trying to rid of something they dont want.

Either course of action is fine with me as they each have their ups and downs and might work or not work either way.   

Quote from: downix on April 14, 2013, 03:58:21 PM
As long as NCSoft knows that people are interested in the property, they will keep the price sky-high, and keep the strings attached which will prevent a sale.

The irony here is that the more people fight to keep NCSoft aware that yes, they want this property, the less likely they will be to sell it.

It's this kind of circular reasoning that can be so discouraging. It would be nice if there were some way to cast NCSoft as petulant children who have capriciously taken away a toy and won't give it back, without us looking petulant in the process. It would weaken their footing in the above argument.

Quote from: dwturducken on April 14, 2013, 04:31:39 PM
It's this kind of circular reasoning that can be so discouraging. It would be nice if there were some way to cast NCSoft as petulant children who have capriciously taken away a toy and won't give it back, without us looking petulant in the process. It would weaken their footing in the above argument.

There is a way, support the Plan Z projects. "Fine, you can keep your toy, we're playing with this new, shinier toy over here...."

Quote from: downix on April 14, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
There is a way, support the Plan Z projects. "Fine, you can keep your toy, we're playing with this new, shinier toy over here...."

yup

We are passionate about City of Heroes because it afforded the opportunity for a unique community to form and, unlike many other games, often brought out the better angels of our nature.  And we had a helluva good time playing it. 

I get puzzled when vitriol is spilled in response to a blogger's column.  If we are heroes and this is what we do,  then give someone who sees our passion and our hopes as something to "move on from" simple respect for his opinion and continue our own efforts to save/revive CoH.  You can disagree with anyone on any subject.  Talk is cheap.  Channeling our passion and love into sweat equity, making positive statements about this game- that's going to regain our home for us, in one way or another. 

Quote from: downix on April 14, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
There is a way, support the Plan Z projects. "Fine, you can keep your toy, we're playing with this new, shinier toy over here...."

I am totally on board with this, but at the moment I'm limited to sitting on the sidelines and admiring the efforts from afar. I'm normally OK with that, but I'm starting to get "itchy." Since I'm currently baffled by formatting text inside a frame, I'm not much help to the actual team, and, if I'm reading it right, what they could use more of is coders.

So, as I blow the dust off my old HTML books and try to knock some rust out of the gears, know that I do support the Plan Z effort. In spirit, ATM. :)

Quote from: dwturducken on April 15, 2013, 05:34:33 AM
I am totally on board with this, but at the moment I'm limited to sitting on the sidelines and admiring the efforts from afar. I'm normally OK with that, but I'm starting to get "itchy." Since I'm currently baffled by formatting text inside a frame, I'm not much help to the actual team, and, if I'm reading it right, what they could use more of is coders.

So, as I blow the dust off my old HTML books and try to knock some rust out of the gears, know that I do support the Plan Z effort. In spirit, ATM. :)

Know how to manage a Drupal site?

Quote from: downix on April 15, 2013, 06:00:35 AM
Know how to manage a Drupal site?

I know how to manage Joomla. I'm sure I can pick up Drupal.

Quote from: downix on April 15, 2013, 06:00:35 AM
Know how to manage a Drupal site?

I haven't the faintest clue what "Drupal" is outside of the context in which you just mentioned it (presumably some kind of code for web page management or something similar).

But am I weird that the first thing that popped into my head in regards to seeing both the word itself and said context was to think -

"This sounds exactly like the sort of word that would H.K. Rowling would come up with for a Wizarding World attempt at re-creating "the inter-tubes" - except magic based." 

:D

Quote from: downix on April 14, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
There is a way, support the Plan Z projects. "Fine, you can keep your toy, we're playing with this new, shinier toy over here...."

I am NOT on board with this one.  Support BOTH Plan Z Projects, yes. I totally agree with this.  But to insinuate, even as a tactic, that either of these will "replace" COH?   no.

Besides, as I posted over on the site, I do believe this has grown a bit beyond simply trying to get NCSoft to release the game/IP.

I don't think, over all, that we are simply protesting about COH anymore...but rather putting the gaming companies on notice that we are starting to get tired of their practices!

One reason I support the Plan Z Projects is because I am hoping that neither of them will adhere to the current practices.

After COH, I swore that I would not subscribe to any game that did not give me at least a minimal amount of offline ability...so that when the game eventually died....I would still have something to show for my money.

We have seen games closed (isn't NCSoft known as an MMO Killer?)  leaving players with nothing.

On that site, I have been criticized for part of my comment...rather than not caring about how my actions affect players of other games, I should be Empowering them (in my neck of the woods, we call that enabling, not empowering).

The chances that we will get our game back?  Not good. I never expect to see it again beyond what SEGS can recreate.  But I can hope.   And I can continue to be be a voice against companies that continue to hold players hostage to their whims.

*is not allowed to twirl his mustache, tie up little NellCSoft, and threaten:* "If you don't give me the deed to your City, I'll throw you on the railroad tracks!"



(Now I'm going to make sure that the Phoenix Project's avatar builder will let me build a top-hat-and-cape-wearing mustachio'd villain with the physique of a broom.)

Quote from: Dylan Clearbrook on April 15, 2013, 01:31:06 PM
I am NOT on board with this one.  Support BOTH Plan Z Projects, yes. I totally agree with this.  But to insinuate, even as a tactic, that either of these will "replace" COH?   no.

Besides, as I posted over on the site, I do believe this has grown a bit beyond simply trying to get NCSoft to release the game/IP.

I don't think, over all, that we are simply protesting about COH anymore...but rather putting the gaming companies on notice that we are starting to get tired of their practices!

One reason I support the Plan Z Projects is because I am hoping that neither of them will adhere to the current practices.

After COH, I swore that I would not subscribe to any game that did not give me at least a minimal amount of offline ability...so that when the game eventually died....I would still have something to show for my money.

We have seen games closed (isn't NCSoft known as an MMO Killer?)  leaving players with nothing.

On that site, I have been criticized for part of my comment...rather than not caring about how my actions affect players of other games, I should be Empowering them (in my neck of the woods, we call that enabling, not empowering).

The chances that we will get our game back?  Not good. I never expect to see it again beyond what SEGS can recreate.  But I can hope.   And I can continue to be be a voice against companies that continue to hold players hostage to their whims.

I'm with you here.

Simply put, while I believe in this form of entertainment, I don't believe in the business model that provides it to us.  It punishes the end user for things the end user has no control over.  It places a risk burden on the consumer that he or she can neither mitigate nor predict.  So until I get some better guarantees, I'm done throwing money into these games.

I personally have decided to vote with my wallet and I am finished with MMO's.

If a capricious publisher can destroy 8+ years of my work in one day...........not doing it again.

Quote from: Sajaana on April 15, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
I'm with you here.

Simply put, while I believe in this form of entertainment, I don't believe in the business model that provides it to us.  It punishes the end user for things the end user has no control over.  It places a risk burden on the consumer that he or she can neither mitigate nor predict.  So until I get some better guarantees, I'm done throwing money into these games.

What both you and Dylan, and Ironwolf, all said has weighed on our minds. People want the social capability, but they do not want to live in fear of a corporate master wiping away years of work on a whim.

And I'm damned well going to make sure that doesn't happen with TPP.

Quote from: downix on April 15, 2013, 04:39:01 PM
What both you and Dylan, and Ironwolf, all said has weighed on our minds. People want the social capability, but they do not want to live in fear of a corporate master wiping away years of work on a whim.

And I'm damned well going to make sure that doesn't happen with TPP.

Indeed. We're exploring several options - all in conceptual stages at the moment, since we have a lot more basic things to do on the coding side before we get there - for ways to ensure players retain some measure of ownership over the game and their ability to play it, should the sad day come that Missing Worlds Media has to cease supporting the servers for the game. Some are pretty straight-forward, others are somewhat innovative. We'll figure something out; the last thing we want is our community to be right back here, facing this same tragic problem, again in a decade.

Personally - if you came to end of life allow the players to pay directly for the server time. It could go into maintenance mode and just do a kickstarter or some such thing to fund it month to month. I personally won't join another MMO until they post an end of life plan.

It really isn't worth it to me.

Quote from: Segev on April 15, 2013, 04:52:08 PM
Indeed. We're exploring several options - all in conceptual stages at the moment, since we have a lot more basic things to do on the coding side before we get there - for ways to ensure players retain some measure of ownership over the game and their ability to play it, should the sad day come that Missing Worlds Media has to cease supporting the servers for the game. Some are pretty straight-forward, others are somewhat innovative. We'll figure something out; the last thing we want is our community to be right back here, facing this same tragic problem, again in a decade.

Remember the old Unreal Tournament games?  You could play play offline (very limited...once you finished the "Practice" Missions, all you could do was play them again or play on downloaded maps against bots), You could play online against others, or (and here is my point) you could play play on a LAN.

THAT is where I think modern MMO's got lazy. You could play on this rich, ever growing world...but only online.

Obviously players are not going to be able to play to THAT extent offline or even on LAN.  But there should be SOMETHING to do offline. Strictly FOR offline/Lan toons.   I seem to remember some games that allowed you to play offline and online, but you could not use the same toons for both.   

I know this means a bit more work for the devs....but I think this is something that should be considered.

Quote from: Dylan Clearbrook on April 15, 2013, 07:26:47 PM
Remember the old Unreal Tournament games?  You could play play offline (very limited...once you finished the "Practice" Missions, all you could do was play them again or play on downloaded maps against bots), You could play online against others, or (and here is my point) you could play play on a LAN.

I want to mention that I loaded up Unreal Tournament 2004 a few weeks ago and there were still folks playing online on privately hosted servers. Plus as you said I could play offline against bots. I like games that provide the players with tools/features that allow them to determine the lifespan of a game.

Anyone think the epic 'cloud' concept might actually be useful for the future of MMO's?

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on April 15, 2013, 07:47:44 PM
Anyone think the epic 'cloud' concept might actually be useful for the future of MMO's?

Well, seeing as how MMOs are online-only anyway, it might be, however it does just add in one more thing to possibly go wrong.

I had a Microsoft rep tell me over a year ago that the new XBox will be cloud:  This thought I cannot stand, as it means that single player games are no longer playable offline, a taboo to me.  What if your internet goes down?  What if cloud goes down, or gets hacked?  (PSN debacle, anyone?)  Thanks but no thanks.  And the recent twitter press abomination with the "Get over it" on the new XBox's "always online" info leak only reinforces the whole potential cloud fiasco even more.

What is it with Microsoft always trying to become ever more controlling and restrictive?  (Windows 8 closed platform nonsense being the most recent example of that, which has done nothing but send Gabe Newell and many mainstream game developers and publishers scrambling toward Linux as fast as their fingers will carry them.)

And whoa!  We are really derailing the thread here, lol.  Sorry for jumping on the bandwagon too.

Quote from: Surelle on April 15, 2013, 08:02:36 PMAnd whoa!  We are really derailing the thread here, lol.  Sorry for jumping on the bandwagon too.

(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/CoH%20boards/th_thread_derail_zpsf505213c.jpg)

Quote from: eabrace on April 15, 2013, 08:11:46 PM
(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/CoH%20boards/th_thread_derail_zpsf505213c.jpg)

LOL. Actually, I think it just took a sidetrack, evolving from comments :)

Quote from: Dylan Clearbrook on April 15, 2013, 07:26:47 PM
Remember the old Unreal Tournament games?  You could play play offline (very limited...once you finished the "Practice" Missions, all you could do was play them again or play on downloaded maps against bots), You could play online against others, or (and here is my point) you could play play on a LAN.

THAT is where I think modern MMO's got lazy. You could play on this rich, ever growing world...but only online.

Obviously players are not going to be able to play to THAT extent offline or even on LAN.  But there should be SOMETHING to do offline. Strictly FOR offline/Lan toons.   I seem to remember some games that allowed you to play offline and online, but you could not use the same toons for both.   

I know this means a bit more work for the devs....but I think this is something that should be considered.

You *are* aware that we are using the Unreal engine yes?  I still fire up UT every so often to play.

We are going to make sure that there is a way to continue playing. The exact form is not yet settled.

Quote from: downix on April 15, 2013, 06:00:35 AM
Know how to manage a Drupal site?

It is so odd that you say that. I don't know what that is, except that something that I use occasionally (so occasionally that I'm blanking on what site it is) was down last night, and it was a Drupal error page that came up. I'm an OK quick study, but some things, like the various layers of VoIP troubleshooting, staunchly refuse to bend to my Google-foo! ;)

And, I think we have some parallel threads, so I don't mind the occasional derial.

Quote from: downix on April 15, 2013, 08:21:21 PM
You *are* aware that we are using the Unreal engine yes?  I still fire up UT every so often to play.

We are going to make sure that there is a way to continue playing. The exact form is not yet settled.

I would hope after all the shit with ncsoft that you would just sell it to the next person in the community willing to run the server.

Quote from: Noyjitat on April 16, 2013, 03:26:35 PM
I would hope after all the pancake with ncsoft that you would just sell it to the next person in the community willing to run the server.

That's one option, but I'm aiming for something a bit better than asking for more money at the end.