NCSoft does not own our individual character creations, I have read the Terms before the game was shut down.
could actions be taken to force them to release the IP due to our ownership of the Characters we created?
aka a "we own ##% of the game in accordance that we own the rights to the characters we created and they total ##% of the content of the game, therefore NCSoft has no rights to shut down our portion of the game especially seeing as we are a majority. we call for a release of the IP on the grounds that we as a community own ##% of it"
if this fails we can always individually sue on the grounds that they took down our characters with the game and had no right over our individual characters, thus no right to shut them down"
cause enough financial pain over our IP's until they want to get rid of the IP
Quote from: Joshex on February 02, 2013, 03:18:14 PMNCSoft does not own our individual character creations, I have read the Terms before the game was shut down.
I'm pretty sure NCSoft does own everything created in their game. Does anyone have a link or a file containing the ToS? Just out of curiosity, I'd like to see it for myself, but I'm almost positive you're wrong on this. First of all, no offense but unless you are a lawyer it is easy to misunderstand legalese. (That's why lawyers make so much money. People need them to interpret what other lawyers put into agreements.) Second, even if there is nothing explicit in the ToS, there are other ways in which a company can protect its IP. The relevant IP laws themselves grant NCSoft rights in every single piece that is used in the costume creator, every bit of code that is used to execute movement, powers and other game interactions. Third, just look at it from a common sense business perspective: no software company with enough cash to hire better-than-totally-incompetent legal counsel would leave itself open to this sort of challenge. They'd be open to IP challenges every time they made a change that altered a player's "original" content. Not a good legal foundation for a business. Sorry, I wish you were right, but you aren't.
Quote from: McCreed on February 02, 2013, 03:53:15 PM
just look at it from a common sense business perspective:
Another aspect of common-sense business: who'd want to purchase an IP that comes with legal headaches? Yes, a purchaser could change the ToS, but would they want to offer ANY services to such an obnoxious playerbase?
I'm not saying we shouldn't poke at NCsoft, but we need to be VERY clear about our message ("we want our game back" rather than "NCsoft must Die!").
"...would they want to offer ANY services to such an obnoxious playerbase?"
Lucretia, I'm sure you didn't intend that the way I'm taking it, but just to be clear... we are not an obnoxious playerbase!
The CoH community was very welcoming of new players, answered the "help" channel, caused no problems for NCSoft until the announcement, and enjoyed warm, friendly relations with the developers.
When Paragon closed down, we bought the devs a nice dinner. We didn't have to do that.
If I may speak for everyone here, NCSoft infuriated us not by the simple action of closing the game... we're grownup enough to understand fiscal realities. It was the brutal, sudden, premature way they closed it. It was the number of new items they put up for sale right before the closure announcement, the way those with lapsed accounts were locked out of content forever, NCSoft's wall of silence, the way they bum-rushed the devs out like a Gestapo raid, the way they're hoarding the IP, and any number of other greivances... those transformed us from a loyal and forthcoming playerbase to a pitchforks-and-torches-wielding mob.
"...we need to be VERY clear about our message ('we want our game back' rather than 'NCsoft must Die!')."
I'm perfectly comfortable with both messages. Of course we want our game back. And NCSoft has behaved abominably. For the good of our fellow players, other MMO providers need to be put on notice that if they behave as NCSoft has, there will be consequences.
And any potential buyers need to understand we will be loyal patrons, or vindictive foes, depending upon how we are treated.
I dont believe there is one legal leg to stand on with this premise and I dont know one lawyer that would touch it.
I don't think there's a legal right either way. After all, what good is it to NCSoft to chase me down for remaking one of my CoH characters in Champs, if they even had that sort of power? Some companies are really protective of their own properties (see Marvel getting uppity over CoH in the first place), but I think that's a fairly grey area. After all, they could go after all the cosplayers if they really wanted to.
Quote from: WildFire15 on February 02, 2013, 06:20:13 PM
I don't think there's a legal right either way. After all, what good is it to NCSoft to chase me down for remaking one of my CoH characters in Champs, if they even had that sort of power?
I'm not sure that's using the word "character" in the same sense intended by the OP. If you simply mean a user's concept, backstory, name and
general design concept cooked up in the character creator, it isn't 100% clear (without further evidence of all of their documentation) that NCSoft has reserved all rights for itself along those lines, but I would be quite surprised to learn that they have not done so. Still, could/would they sue you for making a knock-off of one of your own CoX toons in another game? Doubtful.
Meanwhile, I took the OP's sense of the word to mean the actual in-game avatars that inhabited Paragon City, and I'd say it's virtually 100% certain that NCSoft has a legal right to do what they wish with our characters. Could we sue them for killing those avatars along with every other digital inhabitant of that game world? Almost certainly not.
Quote from: Lucretia MacEvil on February 02, 2013, 04:22:08 PM
Another aspect of common-sense business: who'd want to purchase an IP that comes with legal headaches? Yes, a purchaser could change the ToS, but would they want to offer ANY services to such an obnoxious playerbase?
I'm not saying we shouldn't poke at NCsoft, but we need to be VERY clear about our message ("we want our game back" rather than "NCsoft must Die!").
yes.
I never went to seek out the legal wording in the ToS but I was informed that NCSoft did indeed own our characters by someone by who's information was always reliable. I believed him but never worried about it because, knowing that CoH had something special above all other games, I never expected NCSoft to close City of Heroes.
Certainly not in the disrespectful, traitorous manner that they did close it.
Suing on the grounds that you are stating would never be possible, I don't think.
However,
given my feelings about the world I've been waking into for the past 63 days; I have been asking myself what are the possibilities of successfully mounting a class action lawsuit against NCSoft for intentional infliction of emotional distress or something off that vein. I'd even throw in something along the lines of wilful performance of actions with potential to harm the MMO industry. The economy is in rough enough shape as it is, it requires protecting; no one needs these clowns going around creating customer distrust in as lucrative an industry as gaming. Everyone knows this was a frivolous game shutdown.
frivolous. 1 -Silly, especially at an inappropriate time or in an inappropriate manner.
Of course, my legal knowledge is limited to what you can see on tv, so it's exceedingly difficult to credibly play this out in my head.
It would be my hope that if such a thing were possible, even in loss, that NCSoft might have to present their logic in shutting the game down.
I, hereby, hold NCSoft wrongfully responsible for what they claim is the unprofitability of Paragon Studios.
Signed, Francisco Lucio Fernandez
Kindly excuse me now, I have a pit of unending sorrow to return to.
Quote from: McCreed on February 02, 2013, 06:56:37 PM
I'm not sure that's using the word "character" in the same sense intended by the OP. If you simply mean a user's concept, backstory, name and general design concept cooked up in the character creator, it isn't 100% clear (without further evidence of all of their documentation) that NCSoft has reserved all rights for itself along those lines, but I would be quite surprised to learn that they have not done so. Still, could/would they sue you for making a knock-off of one of your own CoX toons in another game? Doubtful.
Meanwhile, I took the OP's sense of the word to mean the actual in-game avatars that inhabited Paragon City, and I'd say it's virtually 100% certain that NCSoft has a legal right to do what they wish with our characters. Could we sue them for killing those avatars along with every other digital inhabitant of that game world? Almost certainly not.
Yeah, that was sort of what I was thinking but when someone says 'character', I'd think of the name and general concept. The avatar itself, on the other hand, NCsoft own it just as you say.
Quotegiven my feelings about the world I've been waking into for the past 63 days; I have been asking myself what are the possibilities of successfully mounting a class action lawsuit against NCSoft for intentional infliction of emotional distress or something off that vein
Forgive me if this post comes off a little preachy. Please bear in mind that my intentions are good.
While I completely understand the depths of frustration and other feelings that are behind sentiments like those above, I hope that nobody will spend any money investigating or pursuing any sort of legal action against NCSoft. You'll be wasting your time, energy, money and good intentions.
I don't know if anyone in this community has more legal training than I do. I did my LL.B. in the early nineties, was called to the bar in my jurisdiction in '95 and practiced a year as an articling student (essentially an apprentice lawyer) before going back to school and pursuing other studies that led me to my current vocation. I am not a practicing lawyer, and so there may be "real" lawyers reading these boards who can correct me if they think I'm wrong, but I am definitely more than a layperson on legal matters so I hope you'll take what I say here seriously.
So far as I can see, there is zero, none, absolutely no legal recourse for CoH players who want to force NCSoft to sell, release or otherwise enable someone to run their server code without fear of legal repercussions. Moreover, there is no cause of action for breach of contract, there is no cause of action for violation of property rights, there is no cause of action for negligence, and there is no cause of action of any other sort recognized by American courts that flows out of NCSoft's decision to discontinue its game. And here's my most important point:
Any lawyer who tells you that you have a case to bring against NCSoft is almost certainly a shyster looking to run up bills for pointless legal work. Unless they're offering to handle your case for free, or on a contingency basis, please don't hire someone to move forward with anything like this. Even if it costs you nothing in terms of cash, it will still almost certainly cost you time and emotional investment that will lead you nowhere terribly good.
Again, as a devoted fan of the game, nothing would please me better than to have an experienced, practicing lawyer tell me that I'm dead wrong. However, I would only give weight to such a legal opinion if it were being rendered free of charge and without any possible hope of future billing as a result of offering such an opinion.
I realize that nobody here is talking about actually going ahead with any sort of real legal steps. I just want to give my advice here and now to make sure that this sort of talk doesn't turn into some well-intentioned Quixotic mishap that ends up leading to real legal bills for somebody, somewhere down the road.
Quote from: Colette on February 02, 2013, 05:48:50 PM
I'm sure you didn't intend that the way I'm taking it, but just to be clear... we are not an obnoxious playerbase!
We haven't been one so far, no. Far from it for the most part (which I'm genuinely proud to say). But to sue them because we're sad over losing our characters? To actually believe that the law would side with us because our hurt feelings are just that important? We'd
become an obnoxious playerbase the moment we tried something like that. And any "good will" value we might have gathered up to that point, would be lost through that one action.
To believe you're so important that rules don't apply to you... to think the only thing that matters is getting what you want... that's about as obnoxious as it gets. We can't be that kind of player if we want to use the quality of our playerbase as a point in our favor.
Oh! As to the OP's question:
"...could actions be taken to force them to release the IP due to our ownership of the characters we created?"
No.
The EULA's carefully worded. When we bought our copy of the game at Best Buy or whatever, we're only buying in the right to sign in. Considering this was my first MMO, I felt kinda bait-'n-switched, but that's how the MMO game works, it seems.
S'why I won't be wasting my hard-earned on any other MMOs.
I wish I could sue them for emotional distress.
My argument being:
Stress relief
Happiness
I'm sure I could name others that feel the same way.
Quote from: Noyjitat on February 03, 2013, 12:47:34 AM
I wish I could sue them for emotional distress.
My argument being:
Stress relief
Happiness
I'm sure I could name others that feel the same way.
Well I'm not lawyer but I do not think it works that way.
Given that I'm no lawyer, go ahead and try to see what happens. Worse that can happen if you manage to ge ta lawyer to take the case is a large legal bill for nothing. The best that can happen, you win and single handedly change how business of products do business. Or NCSoft counter sues for it being frivolous. But I say go ahead and go for it. You never know. Hell, a dude successfully sued McDonalds for getting fat.
I don't have anything to add to this discussion, except to provide this for reference to anyone who's curious:
EULA as of Issue 21 (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Talk:EULA)
Quote from: Blondeshell on February 03, 2013, 01:32:52 AM
I don't have anything to add to this discussion, except to provide this for reference to anyone who's curious:
EULA as of Issue 21 (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Talk:EULA)
The important part is Term 6, article B:
Quote(b) You acknowledge, and further agree, that You have no IP right related to any Account ID, any NCsoft Message Board ID, any communication or information on any NCsoft Message Board provided by You or anyone else, any information, feedback or communication related to the Game, any Character ID or characteristics related to a Character ID, any combination of the foregoing or parts thereof, or any combination of the foregoing with any Service, Content, Software, or parts thereof. To the extent You may claim any such IP right(s), You hereby grant NCsoft a worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, sub-licensable, perpetual and irrevocable license and full authorization to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such IP right(s), and all ancillary and subsidiary rights thereto, in any languages and media now known or not currently known. Your license to NCsoft includes, but is not limited to, all necessary trademark licenses, all copyright licenses needed to reproduce, display, publicly perform, distribute and prepare derivative works of any such IP right, and all patent licenses needed to make, have made or otherwise transfer, use, offer to sell, sell, export and import related to such IP right(s). In addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, You further agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless NCsoft with respect to any claim by third-parties that any such license to any such IP right(s) misappropriates, violates or infringes any third-party IP right or other proprietary right.
Specifically,
QuoteYou acknowledge, and further agree, that You have no IP right related to any ... Character ID or characteristics related to a Character ID.
Translated from legalese:
You do not have the rights to your character names or the characters attached to those names.QuoteTo the extent You may claim any such IP right(s), You hereby grant NCsoft a worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, sub-licensable, perpetual and irrevocable license and full authorization to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such IP right(s), and all ancillary and subsidiary rights thereto, in any languages and media now known or not currently known.
Translated from legalese:
If somehow you claim any intellectual property rights to the characters or content you've made, you grant NCsoft carte blanche
to do whatever the hell they want with the IPs used in this game, via whatever media they choose to do so, whenever and however they choose to do so.QuoteIn addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, You further agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless NCsoft with respect to any claim by third-parties that any such license to any such IP right(s) misappropriates, violates or infringes any third-party IP right or other proprietary right.
Translated from legalese:
You can't sue NCsoft for what they do with those IP rights, either. If somehow NCsoft gets in legal trouble for using IPs you've submitted to the game, they can ask you to foot the legal bills.Now, admittedly, I've seen legal argument made that EULAs are ToS 'agreements' such as these aren't enforceable, as it's impossible to provide physical documentation that the user has both seen them in their entirety and agreed to them. But if a judge determines this EULA is lawful and enforceable, than anyone trying to sue for their IP doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Keep in mind,
I'm no lawyer nor judge nor am I pretending to be either.
Quote from: Joshex on February 02, 2013, 03:18:14 PM
NCSoft does not own our individual character creations, I have read the Terms before the game was shut down.
Actually, if you read the EULA, they do specifically own everything about our characters. Right down to any stories we put in the "info" screen.
Quote from: Kaiser Tarantula on February 03, 2013, 01:53:43 AMNow, admittedly, I've seen legal argument made that EULAs are ToS 'agreements' such as these aren't enforceable, as it's impossible to provide physical documentation that the user has both seen them in their entirety and agreed to them. But if a judge determines this EULA is lawful and enforceable, than anyone trying to sue for their IP doesn't have a leg to stand on.
When you say that you've seen legal argument made that EULAs etc may not be enforceable, what sort of legal argument are you speaking of? There's about as much evidence that a user has read and agreed to the entirety of a EULA like this as there is evidence that a typical home buyer has read and agreed to the entirety of an Agreement of Purchase and Sale. The necessary act of clicking "I agree" on a EULA is the functional equivalent of a party's signature on a paper contract. A court would have to find the fine print of the EULA so outlandish as to run contrary to any reasonable expectations of the buyer (for example, if the EULA indemnified NCSoft against damage caused by a virus hidden in their client code). Nothing in this EULA seems terribly surprising, so I doubt any court would hesitate to hold the licensee to the letter of it.
Quote from: Colette on February 02, 2013, 05:48:50 PM
"...would they want to offer ANY services to such an obnoxious playerbase?"
Lucretia, I'm sure you didn't intend that the way I'm taking it, but just to be clear... we are not an obnoxious playerbase!
You misunderstood him/her, probably because you didn't also read the first post in it's entirety. If you did, you missed the part where he said we should sue the pants off of NCSoft for the IP. She was referring to any playerbase that would (try to) cause a truckload of legal issues for a company. Such an action by a broad group of people would actually cause potential buyers of the IP to back away slowly from any sale for fear of the same thing happening to them.
Quote"...we need to be VERY clear about our message ('we want our game back' rather than 'NCsoft must Die!')."
I'm perfectly comfortable with both messages. Of course we want our game back. And NCSoft has behaved abominably. For the good of our fellow players, other MMO providers need to be put on notice that if they behave as NCSoft has, there will be consequences.
That would be one way to look at it, or you could look at it from a company's standpoint and do as I mentioned before. Think to yourself, or board members for that matter, "Wow, these CoXers are all a bunch of madcaps. I don't think I want to inherit all of those players as customers."
QuoteAnd any potential buyers need to understand we will be loyal patrons, or vindictive foes, depending upon how we are treated.
If we appear as though there is a good chance of the second, we might as well throw in the towel now. No company is going to risk bad image and potentially losing face along with many millions of dollars when they may only be adding 5% to their bottom line. Let's be honest here. CoX made good money, but it was not a cash cow. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_cow)
Basically, it would seem that you have no problem with the message, "Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just don't turn our game off, or we'll reek havoc on you. :D" But it will not, I repeat, NOT make us more appealing to another company.
Quote from: Kaiser Tarantula on February 03, 2013, 01:53:43 AM
QuoteIn addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, You further agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless NCsoft with respect to any claim by third-parties that any such license to any such IP right(s) misappropriates, violates or infringes any third-party IP right or other proprietary right.
Translated from legalese: You can't sue NCsoft for what they do with those IP rights, either. If somehow NCsoft gets in legal trouble for using IPs you've submitted to the game, they can ask you to foot the legal bills.
I agree with most of what you said. The last part was pretty far off. No where does it say that a customer of NCSoft is financially liable for legal costs in the case of an IP rights case. And, IPs are not submitted by us to the game or NCSoft. The section you were quoting simply reinforces their own ownership of the game's IP (along with everything we create on their servers). The very thing we are trying to get them to sell to another company.
Quote from: Blondeshell on February 03, 2013, 01:32:52 AM
I don't have anything to add to this discussion, except to provide this for reference to anyone who's curious:
EULA as of Issue 21 (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Talk:EULA)
very important stuff to keep in mind there.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 03, 2013, 02:03:44 AM
Actually, if you read the EULA, they do specifically own everything about our characters. Right down to any stories we put in the "info" screen.
This, folks, is the most incorrect answer. YOU own the characters. As well as any AE mission you make. What you grant NCSoft in the EULA is exclusive worldwide royalty-free rights to use the characters/mission if they so choose to do so. Say, they wanted Brawling Humiliator to be part of the Freedom Phalanx. I can't say anything contrary, nor expect any payment. I might can expect a dialog about their not changing his looks, powers, or story. But that's about it.
This was gone round and round in the old CoH forums, with me at the head... it's like this:
1) NCSoft owns the game, the engine, the way it works, as well as all the parts and pieces used to do whatever is done on the client end.
2) YOU own whatever you *specifically create* in the game. That includes the character's bio, the *way* the powers are selected and slotted, the *way* the character is put together visually, the bio you create for it, the battle cry too. AE mission *text* is yours, as is the same 'how the character is made' player made custom enemies, What maps are used, where things might be placed, how the missions go along.
You DO NOT own the *pieces* or the *powers* of the characters you make. You ONLY own how the assembly goes together, as well as the description, and that's it.
Think of it as Lego, but with licensing of the actual Lego. You can get any set you like. You can put them together however you like, and even combine Lego sets. But you CANNOT sell the Lego, and Lego could take them back anytime it wishes. It is up to YOU to write down how to put together the "Amazingness Thingy" for your posterity. They have no legal obligation to make the Lego available anymore if they decide to pull all Lego from all people.
In other words... They get everything but your memories, personal notes, about what you built with the Lego. And that's how it is with CoH.
---
The legality of whether you can sue for YOUR IP is in a nutshell: NO. You own it already, you can't sue for what you own.
The legality of whether you can sue for CoH to be able to SEE and USE your IP? The right lawyer, expensively paid, might just pull that off, but you'd spend so much doing it... I think I'd just ride a motorcycle. But hey, I'd appreciate it if you'd go on and do that for us all. :)
---
I read every single word of the latest EULA, and have copies locally, and correctly interpreted and made notes. Legalese is such a headache. But that's the deal. Y'all have fun with it.
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 02:34:20 AM
In other words... They get everything but your memories, personal notes, about what you built with the Lego. And that's how it is with CoH.
---
The legality of whether you can sue for YOUR IP is in a nutshell: NO. You own it already, you can't sue for what you own.
This.
I dont think it can be said much better than this.
The Lego analogy above can only be taken so far. When you buy a set of Lego blocks, you own those blocks. The Lego Group can't come to your house and say "We no longer support Lego. Thanks for your loyalty, but we're taking our blocks back." You actually do own the blocks that you purchased at Toys R Us or wherever. You can keep that red and yellow plastic T-Rex on display in your living room until the day you die and pass it on down through your family line, ad infinitum if you so desire.
Your CoH characters are not yours forever. You don't own any part of them. Not the pieces, not the whole. You were just renting the blocks. As a condition to the rental, you agreed that NCSoft could stop renting to you at any time, in its sole and absolute discretion. (Go through the EULA linked on the prior page and count the occurrences of the term "sole and absolute discretion". That oughta make an impression on anyone who still thinks they were given more than a temporary key to Paragon City.)
This is why I always read those things before diving head first into it. That way I know what they can do and I know what I'm getting into, even if it would be very unlikely that they will ue the full extent of the EULA, still prep the worse as they have that option is what I do, and or did before spending a single penny on subscription.
Nah, screw legalese, I'm not saying lets pony up for a lawsuit but there's a way to get CoH back out there somewhere, we just haven't thought of it yet.
NCSoft may legally own City of Heroes but it belongs to the people of Paragon City.
I'm sure this has been talked to death in other threads, but I would try to find this much comfort in their refusal to sell: there's always a slim chance that they don't want to let it go because they haven't completely given up on the possibility of a CoH2 project. :)
Quote from: McCreed on February 03, 2013, 04:11:29 AM
I'm sure this has been talked to death in other threads, but I would try to find this much comfort in their refusal to sell: there's always a slim chance that they don't want to let it go because they haven't completely given up on the possibility of a CoH2 project. :)
Possible.
Hey they might even have plans, and just havent told us, or we been a pain in butt that they rather not tell us anything, to use the IP in other ways, either in other games, sequel, new Superhero game, app., clothes, comics, etc. No telling.
Or maybe they are so attached to the IP emotionally that they cant bear to let it go and want it all for themselves forever and ever and ever.
"...you missed the part where he said we should sue the pants off of NCSoft for the IP. She was referring to any playerbase that would (try to) cause a truckload of legal issues for a company. Such an action by a broad group of people would actually cause potential buyers of the IP to back away slowly from any sale for fear of the same thing happening to them."
Saw it, and I do grant your point.
My response was simply to defend our playerbase. It is important that we not be "obnoxious," yes. It is also important that we not be perceived as "obnoxious" by potential buyers. So any statement of us being so must not go unchallenged. Follow my logic?
:...it would seem that you have no problem with the message, "Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just don't turn our game off, or we'll reek havoc on you."
False attribution and straw man. My message is, "Come buy our game, accept our money, and follow the Golden Rule -- treat your customers as you would want to be treated, because we've had our fill of douchebags." I don't want any company to buy CoH if they don't understand enlightened self interest. We'd be better off waiting for our crackers to finish and opening up our pirate server. Given "Icon," that looks like what'll happen anyway.
Folks, this thread is a blind alley. We have neither legal recourse against NCSoft nor the means to pursue it. Let's move on.
Quote from: Colette on February 03, 2013, 05:06:32 AM
My response was simply to defend our playerbase. It is important that we not be "obnoxious," yes. It is also important that we not be perceived as "obnoxious" by potential buyers. So any statement of us being so must not go unchallenged. Follow my logic?
I just want to mention something for the sake of clarity: my post earlier wasn't directed to you specifically or anything. I was just responding to the phrase, and yours happened to be the post I quoted. When I was rereading it though, I realized it might have come across like I was arguing with you for some reason. Sorry if it sounded that way. I wasn't, I promise :)
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 02:34:20 AM
This, folks, is the most incorrect answer. YOU own the characters. As well as any AE mission you make.
Pop a yellow, bro. You missed my point. I never said we didn't own the characters. What I did say is they DID own the characters. At best it's a dual ownership. They have unlimited rights to use any aspect of your character without payment or your discretion as you stated. What do you think that means? I have legal rights to use something at any given time without needing permission, and have full power over it (to delete it, shut it down, "generic" it, etc), then I own it. NCSoft had 10 times the power over your character than you did. And they could (and did) use that power whenever they wanted.
It's like your dad handed you the keys to a car and said "It's all yours son." But then later he took it back. You never really owned it. Now you can go buy a car just like it and drive it the same way with the same gas and do the same things with it, but the old car? You never owned it.
You can rewrite any stories or draw and publish your characters, but in the game NCSoft owned your toons.
Quote from: Colette on February 03, 2013, 05:06:32 AM
My response was simply to defend our playerbase. It is important that we not be "obnoxious," yes. It is also important that we not be perceived as "obnoxious" by potential buyers. So any statement of us being so must not go unchallenged. Follow my logic?
I understand you, Colette. I was just trying to say that the poster you were quoting was not saying that the CoX playerbase were obnoxious. They were saying that if we did such a thing as the OP was suggesting would possibly paint us as obnoxious.
Quote
:...it would seem that you have no problem with the message, "Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just don't turn our game off, or we'll reek havoc on you."
False attribution and straw man. My message is, "Come buy our game, accept our money, and follow the Golden Rule -- treat your customers as you would want to be treated, because we've had our fill of douchebags." I don't want any company to buy CoH if they don't understand enlightened self interest.
Straw man? hah! All I said was "it would seem as thought you have no problem with" the message, not that it was what you were saying. And not false at all. Exaggeration maybe. Hyperbole at worst. There really isn't much difference between the way you put it and the way I put it. They are the exact same message... You just left off the ultimatum. Both mine and yours could be shortened to "Buy our game, make money, follow this rule." Mine just had an "or else" that yours implied.
Don't get me wrong, C. I agree with you. I don't want a s#!t company to run the game either. And I am proud of the CoX community being the best ever. Always helping like heroes should. Even us redsiders did. I'm not trying to argue with you, I just felt you misunderstood the point Lucrecia was trying to make. I really don't want us all to become so enraged with NCSoft that we scare off a new company. Also, I've read a lot of your posts and you're a positive voice here, IMO. Really don't want to see that change either. ;)
Heya Pulse, Trip. Nah nah, s'good. Didn't mean to sound confrontational. I'm a bit rigid sometimes.
I'm still gonna crank out anti-NCSoft memes in the hopes that continued pressure over.. well, several years if necessary, will convince them to sell the IP. I really don't see that what we're doing to NCSoft, when seen in the light of fairness and consumer activism, will scare away the kind of buyer we all want. We're in the right.
But given we're starting to see results from our programmers ( :: hugs the Icon program! :: ) I have a lot more faith that we'll revive CoH ourselves than that anyone will buy it. I'll of course still be there with postage ready for VV's next effort.
Back on topic, I really do wish we had some legal means to pry CoH out of NCSoft's clutches. But I don't see it.
Quote from: Triplash on February 02, 2013, 10:18:15 PM
We haven't been one so far, no. Far from it for the most part (which I'm genuinely proud to say). But to sue them because we're sad over losing our characters? To actually believe that the law would side with us because our hurt feelings are just that important? We'd become an obnoxious playerbase the moment we tried something like that. And any "good will" value we might have gathered up to that point, would be lost through that one action.
To believe you're so important that rules don't apply to you... to think the only thing that matters is getting what you want... that's about as obnoxious as it gets. We can't be that kind of player if we want to use the quality of our playerbase as a point in our favor.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 03, 2013, 08:34:29 AM
I understand you, Colette. I was just trying to say that the poster you were quoting was not saying that the CoX playerbase were obnoxious. They were saying that if we did such a thing as the OP was suggesting would possibly paint us as obnoxious.
This was pretty much what I meant.
The CoX playerbase has been absolutely wonderful, but I don't want a potential purchasers to be paranoid about irritating us, so worried to make a mistake after acquisition that no one wants to buy. Granted, this is an extreme "painting" of the actions suggested by the OP, but it seems unwise to give anyone the opportunity. If such actions are pursued, I strongly suggest that all care be taken to maintain our heroic image.
Note to self: Clarity of meaning in forum posts needs work.
Quote from: McCreed on February 03, 2013, 03:47:47 AM
The Lego analogy above can only be taken so far. When you buy a set of Lego blocks, you own those blocks. The Lego Group can't come to your house and say "We no longer support Lego. Thanks for your loyalty, but we're taking our blocks back." You actually do own the blocks that you purchased at Toys R Us or wherever. You can keep that red and yellow plastic T-Rex on display in your living room until the day you die and pass it on down through your family line, ad infinitum if you so desire.
Your CoH characters are not yours forever. You don't own any part of them. Not the pieces, not the whole. You were just renting the blocks. As a condition to the rental, you agreed that NCSoft could stop renting to you at any time, in its sole and absolute discretion. (Go through the EULA linked on the prior page and count the occurrences of the term "sole and absolute discretion". That oughta make an impression on anyone who still thinks they were given more than a temporary key to Paragon City.)
From my post: "Think of it as Lego, but with licensing of the actual Lego. " Abstract, not actual. I know they can't take the Lego away. That's silly. But the CoH engine is effectively a Lego set for us'ns, and they CAN take that away.
The CoH characters ARE ours forever. The EULA is highly specific, but because it's freakin' legalese, it's very difficult to correctly read it. This I get, but I am absolutely telling all of you, seriously, THE CHARACTERS AND AE STUFF YOU MADE ARE YOURS. Period. Why anyone thinks otherwise in regards to NCSoft owning them is just... wrong, and/or misinterpreting the EULA. You don't own the blocks, true, but you own the blueprints to how the blocks go together, and if you made a story about it, that too.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 03, 2013, 08:12:01 AM
Pop a yellow, bro. You missed my point. I never said we didn't own the characters. What I did say is they DID own the characters. At best it's a dual ownership. They have unlimited rights to use any aspect of your character without payment or your discretion as you stated. What do you think that means? I have legal rights to use something at any given time without needing permission, and have full power over it (to delete it, shut it down, "generic" it, etc), then I own it. NCSoft had 10 times the power over your character than you did. And they could (and did) use that power whenever they wanted.
It's like your dad handed you the keys to a car and said "It's all yours son." But then later he took it back. You never really owned it. Now you can go buy a car just like it and drive it the same way with the same gas and do the same things with it, but the old car? You never owned it.
You can rewrite any stories or draw and publish your characters, but in the game NCSoft owned your toons.
No, you have misread the EULA, and I enjoin you to 'pop a yellow'. The EULA says exactly the reverse, that you own the character, and they have exclusive rights to use them without paying you.
I hate to say it, y'all, but you guys need to take more time and make notes when reading the EULA. It's all highly specific, very detailed, and completely spelled out in this regard.
Maybe tomorrow, if I decide to, I may pull every stinking section of the EULA that is involved in this entire debate and point it out. It's gonna be a helluva long quote box post though... But trust me. I spent hours pouring over it. I am not wrong, and I simply wish to not allow the idea that NCSoft owns MY CHARACTERS to perpetuate.
I made them. I created them. They can use them, I said so, but they are damn well mine, and mine alone, and I can even use them to make books or a whole other game if I so choose. It's all in there. And there happen to be laws that also say that on our side too. This is why the EULA is worded the way it is, to allow them to use them in promo materials and not have players say "HAY. You used Brawling Humiliator in an AD! PAY ME!!!" Or such like that.
Telling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side. And it's wrong. And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow.
Have fun burninatin' me until then. :)
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 06:59:44 PM
I made them. I created them. They can use them, I said so, but they are damn well mine, and mine alone, and I can even use them to make books or a whole other game if I so choose. It's all in there. And there happen to be laws that also say that on our side too. This is why the EULA is worded the way it is, to allow them to use them in promo materials and not have players say "HAY. You used Brawling Humiliator in an AD! PAY ME!!!" Or such like that.
Telling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side. And it's wrong. And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow.
It's not technically wrong. They own your character - in the Paragon universe. You cannot go out and write books about Mr. Fabulous fighting the Skulls in Perez Park, followed by calling the Statesman on his phone and taunting a Hydra monster out of Everett Lake. That Mr. Fabulous doesn't belong to you. He belongs to NCsoft.
You can, though, write about Mr. Fabulous
completely removed from the Paragon universe, you can draw him and you can put him in games and all that. But you can't do it in the Paragon universe.
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 06:59:44 PMThe CoH characters ARE ours forever. The EULA is highly specific, but because it's freakin' legalese, it's very difficult to correctly read it. This I get, but I am absolutely telling all of you, seriously, THE CHARACTERS AND AE STUFF YOU MADE ARE YOURS. Period. Why anyone thinks otherwise in regards to NCSoft owning them is just... wrong, and/or misinterpreting the EULA. You don't own the blocks, true, but you own the blueprints to how the blocks go together, and if you made a story about it, that too.
As I said somewhere above, there may be a problem of ambiguity in this discussion as to the intent behind different posters' use of the word "character". My understanding of the OP's use was that he meant the avatars that existed within the world inside the game. I don't think he was hoping that some residual right to write stories using his character's backstory and name would somehow translate into the thin end of a wedge between NCSoft and its IP. I read him as expressing the hope that players somehow retained the right to control the fate of their game avatars and, by some manner of logical extension, the game itself.
BTW, I did understand that your point about Lego was based on some hypothetical licensed Lego as opposed to the real world. I just thought the limits of a "real world" Lego analogy worked well to underscore the main point at issue which is, you've only been renting pieces to play with (regardless of what manner of unenforceable rights you might claim to have in what you did with those pieces while they were in your possession.)
All that aside, I would be interested in seeing what analysis of the EULA you would offer. I definitely have no problem understanding legalese, but I have no doubt that you and other members of this community have read the thing much more carefully than I have. :)
QuoteYou acknowledge, and further agree, that You have no IP right related to any ... Character ID or characteristics related to a Character ID.
Quote from: Kaiser Tarantula on February 03, 2013, 01:53:43 AM
Translated from legalese: You do not have the rights to your character names or the characters attached to those names.
The above bit is not legal for them to claim. Read through Title 17, Chapter 2 (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/) and you'll find that copyright ownership (which you get on your characters automatically when you create them, per other sections of Title 17) cannot be transferred by means other than a written contract signed by
both parties.
A paper contract, that is, not a click-through agreement. Implied consent (they can't PROVE that it was you who clicked the button) is not enough to transfer ownership, and I don't believe it would stand up in court. Written contracts require certain components legally, and EULAs are missing most of them.
Now, the nonexclusive license for NCSoft to *use* your characters if they want to is probably valid, but they can't stop *you* from using them, or from licensing their use to others.
Thing about EULAs is that you can't take them at face value. Lawyers can and will put anything they want in there -- whether it's legal or not -- along with an "if certain parts of this agreement are found to be unenforceable, the rest of it still applies" clause. It's the legal equivalent of throwing a bucket full of pancakes at the wall and seeing what sticks.
As to the OP, it's highly unlikely that you could *force* anyone to operate a game or give up the server code based on copyright on the characters. You still own that copyright, and NCSoft shutting down the game doesn't prevent you from exercising your right to use them in a different medium.
Quote from: Colette on February 03, 2013, 05:06:32 AM
"Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just don't turn our game off, or we'll reek havoc on you."
not my intention, my intention to be honest is to spread the message: "Hey [big time software company here], come buy our game and you can make a little more money. Just if you want to turn off our game please at least have the decency to seriously consider selling the rights to another company, don't sit on the IP or we have every right to complain.."
Quote from: Codewalker on February 03, 2013, 09:44:32 PMThe above bit is not legal for them to claim. Read through Title 17, Chapter 2 (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/) and you'll find that copyright ownership (which you get on your characters automatically when you create them, per other sections of Title 17) cannot be transferred by means other than a written contract signed by both parties.
Sorry, where are you seeing that in 17 ch2? In section 201(d), I read the following:
Quote(d) Transfer of Ownership. —
(1) The ownership of a copyright may be transferred in whole or in part by any means of conveyance or by operation of law, and may be bequeathed by will or pass as personal property by the applicable laws of intestate succession.
I would read "any means of conveyance" to be intended pretty broadly and more than sufficient to cover the EULA we're discussing.
The only part that refers to instruments signed by both parties deals exclusively with works for hire (s.201 (b))
Quote from: Codewalker on February 03, 2013, 09:44:32 PMA paper contract, that is, not a click-through agreement. Implied consent (they can't PROVE that it was you who clicked the button) is not enough to transfer ownership, and I don't believe it would stand up in court. Written contracts require certain components legally, and EULAs are missing most of them.
I've never read any caselaw specifically dealing with the whether/the extent to which game EULAs satisfy the formal requirements of a binding contract. However, absent caselaw to the contrary, I think it's a pretty safe bet that a court would view clicking on the "I Agree" button as a meeting of minds constituting a legally binding agreement, including any transfers or release of IP claims contained therein. Unless I'm mistaken, the fact that you created the character is sufficient proof that you clicked on the EULA agreement button. The only way around that would be to claim that someone else installed the game for you...but in that case the installing party would nevertheless be acting as an agent for the game owner, and NCSoft would be entitled to rely on the doctrine of ostensible authority (
i.e. in business, parties are entitled to rely on representations made on behalf of the parties with whom they have business dealings.)
Quote from: Codewalker on February 03, 2013, 09:44:32 PMThing about EULAs is that you can't take them at face value. Lawyers can and will put anything they want in there -- whether it's legal or not -- along with an "if certain parts of this agreement are found to be unenforceable, the rest of it still applies" clause. It's the legal equivalent of throwing a bucket full of pancakes at the wall and seeing what sticks.
This is a very good point, although I still don't see what parts of this EULA aren't sticking to the wall at the moment. Again, I admittedly haven't spent a lot of time dissecting it, so I will wait to see what specifics get posted here by others.
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 02:34:20 AM
This, folks, is the most incorrect answer. YOU own the characters. As well as any AE mission you make. What you grant NCSoft in the EULA is exclusive worldwide royalty-free rights to use the characters/mission if they so choose to do so. Say, they wanted Brawling Humiliator to be part of the Freedom Phalanx. I can't say anything contrary, nor expect any payment. I might can expect a dialog about their not changing his looks, powers, or story. But that's about it.
This was gone round and round in the old CoH forums, with me at the head... it's like this:
1) NCSoft owns the game, the engine, the way it works, as well as all the parts and pieces used to do whatever is done on the client end.
2) YOU own whatever you *specifically create* in the game. That includes the character's bio, the *way* the powers are selected and slotted, the *way* the character is put together visually, the bio you create for it, the battle cry too. AE mission *text* is yours, as is the same 'how the character is made' player made custom enemies, What maps are used, where things might be placed, how the missions go along.
You DO NOT own the *pieces* or the *powers* of the characters you make. You ONLY own how the assembly goes together, as well as the description, and that's it.
Think of it as Lego, but with licensing of the actual Lego. You can get any set you like. You can put them together however you like, and even combine Lego sets. But you CANNOT sell the Lego, and Lego could take them back anytime it wishes. It is up to YOU to write down how to put together the "Amazingness Thingy" for your posterity. They have no legal obligation to make the Lego available anymore if they decide to pull all Lego from all people.
In other words... They get everything but your memories, personal notes, about what you built with the Lego. And that's how it is with CoH.
---
The legality of whether you can sue for YOUR IP is in a nutshell: NO. You own it already, you can't sue for what you own.
The legality of whether you can sue for CoH to be able to SEE and USE your IP? The right lawyer, expensively paid, might just pull that off, but you'd spend so much doing it... I think I'd just ride a motorcycle. But hey, I'd appreciate it if you'd go on and do that for us all. :)
---
I read every single word of the latest EULA, and have copies locally, and correctly interpreted and made notes. Legalese is such a headache. But that's the deal. Y'all have fun with it.
exactly what I percieved from the ToS, see they can't have any ownership of our characters, nor are they allowed to for legal resons, bassically if they owned all our characters and costumes they would open themselves up for multimillion dollar lawsuits every time one of us made a costume resembling a copyrighted character or a character named after a copyrighted charcter.
bassically owning our charcters is a topic no game company's legal advisors will touch.
plus, how do they know that we didn't actually copyright our characters before placing them in CoH?
conflicting copyrights are never a good thing. so they wont touch it.
I can read game legal a bit, part of the courses I took in college were about the legal side of videogames.
Quote from: Codewalker on February 03, 2013, 09:49:06 PM
As to the OP, it's highly unlikely that you could *force* anyone to operate a game or give up the server code based on copyright on the characters. You still own that copyright, and NCSoft shutting down the game doesn't prevent you from exercising your right to use them in a different medium.
thanks for your input Codewalker, I really respect your words.
that actualy points out something I didn't consider. but does start my semi-madscientist plotting again;
you see I know there were characters people created that were intended to 'fit-in' to paragon and the rougue isles and such, I have a few myself: Arbiter Seth for one on the redside.
you see, the character right is owned by me, and the character's implementation was specifically designed for CoH/V, withot CoH/V I would need to ascertain rights from NCSoft to continue using my character in other mediums because the story would definitely revolve around the CoH/V universe..
if I were to sue for anything, I wouldn't sue for money, maybe just enough to cover court expenses/travels ETC. and of coarse the main Suit; for them to release the rights to another company (based on an auction with a final date determined by the court, if it fails then they would need to release it to the player community and it would be up to us to find a buyer/host)
bassically, I'm just fed up with NCSoft sitting on the IP and laughably making claims that they tried to sell it (really? well, if you were really trying wouldn't you succeed?) then to further insult my intelligence they decide to come flat out and say "we have no plans for further development of CoH/V and we have decided not to sell the Rights to another company." (oh really? well then I feel the IP must be pried from your hoarding monopolistic hands then.)
Quote from: McCreed on February 03, 2013, 10:08:43 PM
Sorry, where are you seeing that in 17 ch2? In section 201(d), I read the following:
In section 204(a), which covers the execution of transfers:
Quote(a) A transfer of copyright ownership, other than by operation of law, is not
valid unless an instrument of conveyance, or a note or memorandum of the transfer,
is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owner's
duly authorized agent.
That only requires one signature, but 204(b) goes on to add that while not
required, a certificate of acknowledgement is much preferred and carries greater weight as to the validity of the transfer.
Quote from: McCreed on February 03, 2013, 10:08:43 PMUnless I'm mistaken, the fact that you created the character is sufficient proof that you clicked on the EULA agreement button.
Not necessarily. Someone else could have clicked the button before you went and created a character on their account. The character is still copyright the person who created it.
Also, in pre-NCSoft launcher versions of the game, the EULA was displayed by cohupdater prior to launching the game. It was quite possible to not use the launcher and run cityofheroes.exe directly without ever agreeing to the EULA.
Quote from: Codewalker on February 03, 2013, 10:37:33 PM
In section 204(a), which covers the execution of transfers:
That only requires one signature, but 204(b) goes on to add that while not required, a certificate of acknowledgement is much preferred and carries greater weight as to the validity of the transfer.
Not necessarily. Someone else could have clicked the button before you went and created a character on their account. The character is still copyright the person who created it.
Also, in pre-NCSoft launcher versions of the game, the EULA was displayed by cohupdater prior to launching the game. It was quite possible to not use the launcher and run cityofheroes.exe directly without ever agreeing to the EULA.
heh yep, I must admit Sometimes I never read the updated EULA and had someone else log me in (and they proceeded to play on my characters) then I'd log-out to the character select screen and make a new toon.
arbiter seth was actually done just like said there.
Also, Codewalker, I'm turing into a big fan of yours, and thats saying alot. takes alot to get me on board as a fan. carry on with your wonderful reverse engineering work, if you need any help and are still working on it come summer time I might be able to lend a hand I will be trying to finish my degree in computer science which requires alot of programming knowledge (Java is mandatory, and I think maybe I'll study python and C)
Quote from: McCreed on February 03, 2013, 10:08:43 PM
However, absent caselaw to the contrary, I think it's a pretty safe bet that a court would view clicking on the "I Agree" button as a meeting of minds constituting a legally binding agreement, including any transfers or release of IP claims contained therein.
It honestly depends on the court. Some have ruled that it's a binding agreement, some have ruled that it's not. So best to look up precedent in your area.
Even if it's a binding agreement, it's usually a weaker one than an actual signed contract and certain provisions may or may not be more likely to be struck from it.
Unless you live in a UCITA state, then you're royally f####d.
Quote from: Codewalker on February 03, 2013, 11:19:30 PM
It honestly depends on the court. Some have ruled that it's a binding agreement, some have ruled that it's not. So best to look up precedent in your area.
Even if it's a binding agreement, it's usually a weaker one than an actual signed contract and certain provisions may or may not be more likely to be struck from it.
Unless you live in a UCITA state, then you're royally f####d.
but if it's not a binding agreement doesnt it work both ways?
Given that charactersi ngame are created technically by using pieces that the game creators made, wouldnt the game creator still have ownership over the pieces, unless a person created their own pieces and inserted it into the game?
Quote from: JaguarX on February 03, 2013, 11:42:06 PM
but if it's not a binding agreement doesnt it work both ways?
Given that charactersi ngame are created technically by using pieces that the game creators made, wouldnt the game creator still have ownership over the pieces, unless a person created their own pieces and inserted it into the game?
nope, this is covered under artistic expression laws, it's no different than a retailer of colored pencils, yeah they own the patent of the pencils but not the works you create with them.
Quote from: Joshex on February 03, 2013, 11:57:32 PM
nope, this is covered under artistic expression laws, it's no different than a retailer of colored pencils, yeah they own the patent of the pencils but not the works you create with them.
I figured this much.
So then that means we can legally recreate our characters from there in other media since we own them. This which brings me to my next question. Since we still own our characters and can still create them and use them, then what would we be suing NCSoft for if we by definition already have ownership of our property that is rightfully ours?
Quote from: JaguarX on February 04, 2013, 12:03:48 AM
I figured this much.
So then that means we can legally recreate our characters from there in other media since we own them. This which brings me to my next question. Since we still own our characters and can still create them and use them, then what would we be suing NCSoft for if we by definition already have ownership of our property that is rightfully ours?
Quoteyou see I know there were characters people created that were intended to 'fit-in' to paragon and the rougue isles and such, I have a few myself: Arbiter Seth for one on the redside.
you see, the character right is owned by me, and the character's implementation was specifically designed for CoH/V, withot CoH/V I would need to ascertain rights from NCSoft to continue using my character in other mediums because the story would definitely revolve around the CoH/V universe..
this.
by CoH not being live I can't use this character because it pertains to the CoH/V universe.
Quote from: Joshex on February 04, 2013, 01:22:10 AM
this.
by CoH not being live I can't use this character because it pertains to the CoH/V universe.
Ah I see.
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 06:59:44 PM
Maybe tomorrow, if I decide to, I may pull every stinking section of the EULA that is involved in this entire debate and point it out. It's gonna be a helluva long quote box post though... But trust me. I spent hours pouring over it. I am not wrong, and I simply wish to not allow the idea that NCSoft owns MY CHARACTERS to perpetuate.
Actually, I would like it if you did this since you apparently (no sarcasm here) know more about the EULA (End User License Agreement for those of you who don't know) than most. If you are right, then I'll admit it. But, everything I've ever read, in the EULA and elsewhere, tells me otherwise. If I am wrong though, it would only be if you were to go by the strictest meaning of "ownership." The difference between the rights of ours and the rights of theirs to our characters is that we created them. Other than that, they could do with them as they please without our permission or reimbursement, which to me implies dual ownership.
QuoteTelling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side. And it's wrong. And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow.
Have fun burninatin' me until then. :)
No need to get unhappy because of someone else's point of view... especially if it's wrong. And no one is trying to burn you. Well, I'm not anyway. :D
why not just sue them and get it over with?
Quote from: Joshex on February 03, 2013, 11:04:39 PM
(Java is mandatory, and I think maybe I'll study python and C)
Study C. Study assembly (any architecture) if you get the opportunity.
Algorithms and high level languages are great, and are very useful for building complex applications. However, knowing how things work at the lowest level, how and
why things are designed that way, will help you be a much better programmer. Too many are ignorant of the layers they're building on and think only in terms of the high level concepts.
If you can look at piece of Java code and think to yourself, "It will be compiled to this sequence of bytecodes, which will probably get JITed to assembly that does XYZ." then you're doing good. Sooner or later, everything becomes a sequence of operations in a state machine.
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 06:59:44 PM
Telling me different, telling me my creation is theirs?!... well it gets me a little teensy bit on the unhappy side. And it's wrong. And that's all I'm gonna say about it until maybe tomorrow.
Have fun burninatin' me until then. :)
Well I think your creations are truely yours. no one can take that away. But that doesnt mean they have to allow use of the media that they own to continue to advance or create your creation.
The creation is yours. You can create it on any media you choose, assuming that media is available and the owners of that medium allows you to do so. By definition you can create a drawing of your creation and post it on youtube. You can even create a website with the creation of your making. You probably and most likely can create your creation on WoW, CO, DCUO and etc without fear of reprecussion. On the same token though, the game is their creation and just as a person is irked by saying that your creation does not belong to you, they probably feel the same way about the game. Just like I'm sure you'd probably wouldnt want people to tell you that you cannot delete your creation and by law, you havea right to do that, they can do the same with their creation.
On the prior page was a post dissecting parts of the EULA with "Translated From Legalese" sections.
Is there some imprecision in the language of the "translations" that would make it less enforceable, or would it just not impress a trained lawyer for its lack of typical "legal language?"
Quote from: Codewalker on February 04, 2013, 06:10:39 AM
Study C. Study assembly (any architecture) if you get the opportunity.
Algorithms and high level languages are great, and are very useful for building complex applications. However, knowing how things work at the lowest level, how and why things are designed that way, will help you be a much better programmer. Too many are ignorant of the layers they're building on and think only in terms of the high level concepts.
If you can look at piece of Java code and think to yourself, "It will be compiled to this sequence of bytecodes, which will probably get JITed to assembly that does XYZ." then you're doing good. Sooner or later, everything becomes a sequence of operations in a state machine.
thanks for the tips! I'll definitely study assembly. had some problems compiling from svc before, turns out I used the wrong C interpreter. Borland doesn't have updated support for macros. to be honest I already know Qbasic and visual basic and some python. but I'm still not in your league XD
Quote from: JaguarX on February 04, 2013, 06:05:57 AM
why not just sue them and get it over with?
precautions, must make sure to study the case myself and get second opinions from other legal professionals.
Quote from: McCreed on February 03, 2013, 03:47:47 AMThe Lego analogy above can only be taken so far. When you buy a set of Lego blocks, you own those blocks. The Lego Group can't come to your house and say "We no longer support Lego. Thanks for your loyalty, but we're taking our blocks back." You actually do own the blocks that you purchased at Toys R Us or wherever. You can keep that red and yellow plastic T-Rex on display in your living room until the day you die and pass it on down through your family line, ad infinitum if you so desire.
No, the analogy is still on all fours; what you're missing is that you're
not buying Legos to play with; you're going down to a center run by NCSoft where
they have all kinds of Legos available for people to play with, and making your constructs there. You don't actually
own any of the Legos; they all belong to NCSoft, and they just let you play with them.
Quote from: srmalloy on February 04, 2013, 07:09:22 PM
No, the analogy is still on all fours; what you're missing is that you're not buying Legos to play with; you're going down to a center run by NCSoft where they have all kinds of Legos available for people to play with, and making your constructs there. You don't actually own any of the Legos; they all belong to NCSoft, and they just let you play with them.
The problem with analogies that don't fit too well with reality is that... well... they don't fit to well with reality. There is no such thing as a place where you get to rent and play with Lego's and not own them. And if there were, it'd be very silly since you can buy Lego's really cheap. I, along with others here, understand the analogy, but it was poorly made.
A closer analogy would be my high school welding class. They provided the massive amounts of electricity to run the machines, the welding rods, the shielding gas, the steel and aluminum stock, and even the tools to cut, grind, and sand the pieces and product. I put my ideas, my intellectual property, into my work, but because of the contract I signed at the school, and the fact that everything I used was owned by them, they own my project and could use it for display purposes or recycle it. Now, I could go out and buy a welder along with all the other stuff and remake my project, but the original didn't belong to me. Only the concept of it did.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 04, 2013, 09:02:19 PM
The problem with analogies that don't fit too well with reality is that... well... they don't fit to well with reality. There is no such thing as a place where you get to rent and play with Lego's and not own them. And if there were, it'd be very silly since you can buy Lego's really cheap. I, along with others here, understand the analogy, but it was poorly made.
The problem with analogies is...
you're thinking too hard. The scenario is exactly what was described, and it doesn't matter if it does or does not exist, the analogy works
pretty much perfectly.
Folks, I had a pretty rough, long day, so I apologize... as I read somewhere, the analogy here is "bra's off." Not that I wear one, the concept of "I am DONE being all thinky and handsome and stuff. I'm chillin' out for now."
I'll get that whole legalease thing put together on this for ya Pulsar. I would like very much to show my homework, as it seems it might be somewhat important... and maybe, just maybe, there's a wedge.
Or not. I don't have the funds to find out anyway, as it happens...
/I ask for patience, some days really really suck. Thanks. :)
//I blame Reddit and my own weird brain for the bra analogy...
Quote from: Aggelakis on February 05, 2013, 12:43:07 AM
The problem with analogies is... you're thinking too hard. The scenario is exactly what was described, and it doesn't matter if it does or does not exist, the analogy works pretty much perfectly.
I never think too hard. Perhaps you are not thinking hard enough if you think Rent-a-Lego Centre is a
perfect analogy. We have brains for a reason, you know.
The point in using an analogy is to compare two or more things, one being simpler or easier to understand or almost as a proverbial canvas to "paint" or demonstrate the workings of a situation. The reason they are used is because when they are used correctly, they work. If your analogy is based in something in which it's existence is difficult to accept, it's a poor analogy. Hence, the LegoLand Colored Play-Block Emporium is a poor analogy.
Analogy is a great tool not only for debate, but also teaching. It's second, in my opinion, only to the Socratic Method. If you are going to try to prove a point, don't make up some non-existent stand to place it on. It's just silly.
Hey... I put the "Anal" in Analogy. ;)
Could we make a push for Cruel and Unusual punishment? Their stocks were not doing well so they shut down CoH. That was cruel punishment. Not to sell the IP is unusual punishment. That's a no no.
Quote from: houtex on February 05, 2013, 02:05:36 AM
...as I read somewhere, the analogy here is "bra's off."
I like where you are going with this.
Quote
//I blame Reddit and my own weird brain for the bra analogy...
Would that be reddit.com/r/gonewild?
QuoteI'll get that whole legalease thing put together on this for ya Pulsar.
Quote/I ask for patience, some days really really suck. Thanks. :)
Nah, Hou, it's all good. ;)
Quote from: Aggelakis on February 05, 2013, 12:43:07 AMThe problem with analogies is... you're thinking too hard. The scenario is exactly what was described, and it doesn't matter if it does or does not exist, the analogy works pretty much perfectly.
'Technically' if you wanted to make the analogy more precise... and this is something I've always used to describe how ridiculous Sony's DRM policy was at one point in time. Referring specifically to needing to buy a copy of an mp3 for each device you wanted to play it in. Would we find it ridiculous if every-time we paid for a hammer, we could only use it to build that doghouse, and then have to pay for it again if we decided we wanted to build a deck? Of course that's ludicrous, but that's exactly what Sony was pushing. If there were a way to put a limit on our use of non-electronic material items, you can be sure that hammers would come with a licensing agreement.
Same goes for legos. It'd be hard to enforce, but a company could conceivably put a license agreement on ANYTHING, stating you can only use it for X number of years. And if you get caught with it after that date, you're in big doodoo.
What's really scary is, if nanotech could ever be made efficiently and cheap enough, this could actually become possible. Imagine every hammer having a tiny RF chip that doubles as a motion sensor. And if it gets swung into something after a certain date, it starts emitting a wi-fi signal to notify the business of a license violation.
Quote from: Joshex on February 04, 2013, 05:32:44 PM
precautions, must make sure to study the case myself and get second opinions from other legal professionals.
makes perfect sense. Carry on then.
To try and help clarify:
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 03, 2013, 02:03:44 AM
Actually, if you read the EULA, they do specifically own everything about our characters. Right down to any stories we put in the "info" screen.
Quote from: houtex on February 03, 2013, 02:34:20 AM
This, folks, is the most incorrect answer. YOU own the characters. As well as any AE mission you make. What you grant NCSoft in the EULA is exclusive worldwide royalty-free rights to use the characters/mission if they so choose to do so.
1) NCSoft owns the game, the engine, the way it works, as well as all the parts and pieces used to do whatever is done on the client end.
2) YOU own whatever you *specifically create* in the game. That includes the character's bio, the *way* the powers are selected and slotted, the *way* the character is put together visually, the bio you create for it, the battle cry too. AE mission *text* is yours, as is the same 'how the character is made' player made custom enemies, What maps are used, where things might be placed, how the missions go along.
You DO NOT own the *pieces* or the *powers* of the characters you make. You ONLY own how the assembly goes together, as well as the description, and that's it.
Quote from: Codewalker on February 03, 2013, 09:44:32 PM
Read through Title 17, Chapter 2 (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/) and you'll find that copyright ownership (which you get on your characters automatically when you create them, per other sections of Title 17) cannot be transferred by means other than a written contract signed by both parties.
A paper contract, that is, not a click-through agreement. Implied consent (they can't PROVE that it was you who clicked the button) is not enough to transfer ownership, and I don't believe it would stand up in court. Written contracts require certain components legally, and EULAs are missing most of them.
Now, the nonexclusive license for NCSoft to *use* your characters if they want to is probably valid, but they can't stop *you* from using them, or from licensing their use to others.
Thing about EULAs is that you can't take them at face value. Lawyers can and will put anything they want in there -- whether it's legal or not -- along with an "if certain parts of this agreement are found to be unenforceable, the rest of it still applies" clause. It's the legal equivalent of throwing a bucket full of pancakes at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Those are the most salient points as I see them, as an author and a songwriter who holds registered copyright on some of her work.
Copyright law is a mess. What U.S. Copyright law recognizes is that anything an artist or writer creates is covered by copyright
immediately, whether that artist files for a copyright or not. In the event of a copyright breach, it is up to the author to prove that an alleged breach occurred, which is why most artists and authors will either formally obtain a copyright or at the least maintain notes, drawings, something that can be dated to prove they came up with a particular work first.
In the cases of our characters, the character concepts in general as well as the backstorys belong to us; NCSoft has no rights to any of them as long we do not include any information that IS specifically covered in the EULA, which is anything to do with Paragon City, Rogue Isles, Statesman, Dream Doctor, other signature characters or any other material included in game or in publication via NCSoft. I can write a story about my character Ganymede, who gained the power to manipulate dark energy after an encounter with a life-stealing alien who crash-landed on Earth, and be perfectly within my rights as an author. However, I am not legally allowed to refer to her as a Warshade, call the life-stealing alien a Nictus or describe her powers as Umbral Blasts or Umbral Auras. Ganymede, her backstory, her powers and personality and her future are mine. The specific interpretation of Ganymede the Warshade, her powers in CoH, the exact likeness of her character and costume pieces and the animations of her powers belong to NCSoft.
Hope that helps. This thread has gotten testy at times. We are all on the same side here, guys and gals. We miss our world and our community, and taking frustration out on each other isn't going to help. I still remain hopeful, so much so that I keep looking for a blue power ring to fly through my window any moment. If only...
Quote from: mr.joshua on February 05, 2013, 02:26:09 AM
Could we make a push for Cruel and Unusual punishment? Their stocks were not doing well so they shut down CoH. That was cruel punishment. Not to sell the IP is unusual punishment. That's a no no.
No. Also, you need to look up "cruel and unusual punishment" in its original context.
As much as I am heartened by the very existence of this thread, I think we'd have a better chance of pursuing a "fraud" avenue-- they knew they were going to do this, but continued to sell us things and keep us lured with the promise of new things on the horizon. A dick move, yes, but I'm still trying to find out if it's an actionable dick move.
Quote from: Kurrent on February 05, 2013, 05:14:31 PM
In the cases of our characters, the character concepts in general as well as the backstorys belong to us; NCSoft has no rights to any of them as long we do not include any information that IS specifically covered in the EULA, which is anything to do with Paragon City, Rogue Isles, Statesman, Dream Doctor, other signature characters or any other material included in game or in publication via NCSoft.
Now, you may very well be right in the long run, but not as far as NCSoft and the the game's EULA are concerned. According to them, once you save information on their severs, they have the right to do whatever they want with it (delete it, generic it, ban it, use in it posters, commercials, movies, shows, or even incorporate it into the game). We also have similar rights to do with it as we please. They can't stop us and we can't stop them. We created it, but that is where the difference stops. Both NCSoft and the creator of a character have equal rights to it.
Again, this is all according to the EULA. The question of whether that is enforceable by law is a fair question. I suppose the only time this would really matter is if one was to write a story via movie, comic, novel, etc, and if it were to become popular, then there could possibly be a conflict if NCSoft were to do the same.
Quote from: Pinnacle Blue on February 05, 2013, 05:35:05 PM
As much as I am heartened by the very existence of this thread, I think we'd have a better chance of pursuing a "fraud" avenue-- they knew they were going to do this, but continued to sell us things and keep us lured with the promise of new things on the horizon. A dick move, yes, but I'm still trying to find out if it's an actionable dick move.
Actually, from what can be told, it was a snap decision. Paragon Studios was responsible for the game in nearly all aspects including telling us about new content. The moment they were informed that the game was shutting down, they stopped taking money and even gave a bunch back. Even for unused Paragon Points, while still letting those with the points keep them. The game continued to run for 3 months and those who were VIP members retained the membership for free. I even heard of people simply messaging the devs and getting upgraded for free for the last few months. NCSoft Korea chose to close the game, not Paragon, and they didn't have anything to do with development.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 05, 2013, 05:43:13 PM
Actually, from what can be told, it was a snap decision. Paragon Studios was responsible for the game in nearly all aspects including telling us about new content. The moment they were informed that the game was shutting down, they stopped taking money and even gave a bunch back. Even for unused Paragon Points, while still letting those with the points keep them. The game continued to run for 3 months and those who were VIP members retained the membership for free. I even heard of people simply messaging the devs and getting upgraded for free for the last few months. NCSoft Korea chose to close the game, not Paragon, and they didn't have anything to do with development.
This is not in question, at all, even a little bit.
Everyone knows NCSoft is responsible. I guess I should have been clearer-- I believe NCSoft knew they were going to shut the game down while encouraging its development.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 05, 2013, 05:43:13 PM
Actually, from what can be told, it was a snap decision.
Quite unlikely. Multi-national businesses do not operate in "snap" fashion. Not to mention NCsoft was unhappy with Paragon and Paragon was unhappy with NCsoft - enough that Paragon attempted to buy itself out a year ago or so. NCsoft probably put "close Paragon" on its docket right about then.
Quote from: Pinnacle Blue on February 05, 2013, 05:47:19 PM
This is not in question, at all, even a little bit. Everyone knows NCSoft is responsible. I guess I should have been clearer-- I believe NCSoft knew they were going to shut the game down while encouraging its development.
Quit possible, but not easily proven. However, as the history of the game shows, NCSoft (K) did very little to encourage anything considering our beloved city for the last few years.
I mean, what should they have done? Put out a press release in April saying "We are considering closing City of Heroes. If it happens, it will be in about 8 or 9 months. We will be watching the game to see how well it does until then." Well, then the game would have surly deflated and they probably would have closed the doors even earlier. Don't get me wrong. I think the way they did it sucked. Frankly, I think the fact that game was closed at all sucks. I just think that considering their actions illegal, as fraud, or as IP theft is just frivolous and we should be focusing on TF:HM, TPP, or H&V. I just don't think we have any legal recourse against NCSoft that would be of any use.
Quote from: Aggelakis on February 05, 2013, 05:50:36 PM
Quite unlikely. Multi-national businesses do not operate in "snap" fashion. Not to mention NCsoft was unhappy with Paragon and Paragon was unhappy with NCsoft - enough that Paragon attempted to buy itself out a year ago or so. NCsoft probably put "close Paragon" on its docket right about then.
It happened rather abruptly from what players and even the devs can tell. We can
speculate that it was a decision made a long time ago, and maybe even be right, but we have no proof of it. Which is why I said "from what can be told" and not "it's 100% certain."
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 05, 2013, 05:43:13 PM
I even heard of people simply messaging the devs and getting upgraded for free for the last few months.
Oh, and just to stave this rumor off: you heard wrong. They didn't have the capability of upgrading freebs to VIP. Both Zwilly before he left and Hit Streak after he took over said it repeatedly.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 05, 2013, 05:37:27 PM
Now, you may very well be right in the long run, but not as far as NCSoft and the the game's EULA are concerned. According to them, once you save information on their severs, they have the right to do whatever they want with it (delete it, generic it, ban it, use in it posters, commercials, movies, shows, or even incorporate it into the game). We also have similar rights to do with it as we please. They can't stop us and we can't stop them. We created it, but that is where the difference stops. Both NCSoft and the creator of a character have equal rights to it.
Again, this is all according to the EULA. The question of whether that is enforceable by law is a fair question. I suppose the only time this would really matter is if one was to write a story via movie, comic, novel, etc, and if it were to become popular, then there could possibly be a conflict if NCSoft were to do the same.
I'm a bit confused here, and I think you might be misreading some of what I was saying.
The EULA clearly does state the in-game bits and pieces belong to NCSoft, including the CoH-specific power names, costume pieces, titles, trademarks, and appearance as they are described in game. They certainly
can and most likely
will try to prosecute someone who, say, tries to publish a comic book about one of his/her CoH characters with the same powers, appearance, costume pieces, etc., etc. as it existed inside CoH. That is a violation of the EULA we agreed to, regardless of whether or not we chose the various options and put them together. We gave away the future rights to those very specific objects and exactly how they were assembled
using those specific objects.However, if we take the same character concept and remove the CoH-specific pieces, going back to what we first thought of as an idea for a character, NCSoft has no right or claim to that. We can create a different version of that previously-mentioned character with the same concept, similar appearance, similar powers while avoiding any trademarked or copyrighted terms or properties. This version of the character NCSoft can't touch, and
they have no right to use or claim it as long as we haven't used or duplicated anything that is legally theirs. They might attempt to claim copyright infringement if the two versions are extremely similar, but as long as our reworked versions of those characters are significantly different (which can be a fine line) and avoid using any of NCSoft's property, NCSoft will lose that case every single time.
Quote from: Aggelakis on February 05, 2013, 06:04:29 PM
Oh, and just to stave this rumor off: you heard wrong. They didn't have the capability of upgrading freebs to VIP. Both Zwilly before he left and Hit Streak after he took over said it repeatedly.
Well, it wasn't a rumor then. It was a flat out lie. I was told this by some people in game that, according to them, had messaged the devs saying that their payment had lapsed at the most inopportune time and they were unable to re-upgrade to VIP, so the devs went ahead and did it.
However, as I have witnessed in this world, all things are possible. While you may be right, you may also be wrong. I would assume that the devs would not admit to this power for fear of a flood of messages to do so.
Edit: edited for clarity
Quote from: Kurrent on February 05, 2013, 06:09:15 PM
I'm a bit confused here, and I think you might be misreading some of what I was saying.
What I am saying is essentially this: Once we put information on their servers, they have all the rights to it that we have. Let's say I make a super generic character with a costume similar to what you can see in a hundred random comics, and I make a super generic story with no references to any CoH lore, and let's say I give that character Super Strength and Invulnerability. Now, I, as the creator, can port concept to any medium I chose as long as I don't use images specifically from CoX. I have that right. However, NCSoft also has the right to take the name and likeness of that character and use it anywhere they want. I will say this: The one thing we can do that they cannot is transfer the rights they have to another entity. We can (as long as we use no copyrighted material belonging to NCSoft).
I AM NOT saying that we have no rights to it, I am only saying that NCSoft has nearly all the same rights to it.
I believe you to be wrong on that Blue Pulsar, I played directly with Jim Butcher on his Harry Dresden character.
He would never in a million years do that if it left him open to a 3rd party using his creation freely. I beleive NCSoft had the right to using your character IN GAME - however they wished. Making them an NPC, Main Hero/Villain, making posters with you in them and so on - but they do not own creative rights to the character. Very similar to how a radio station can play your song to highlight a broadcast but not change your song and call it something new.
There is USE and then there is Creative license.
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on February 05, 2013, 05:58:31 PM
It happened rather abruptly from what players and even the devs can tell. We can speculate that it was a decision made a long time ago, and maybe even be right, but we have no proof of it. Which is why I said "from what can be told" and not "it's 100% certain."
Paragon Studios was blindsided by the decision, yes. The Execs at NCSoft took some time to think things over. They just didn't tell Paragon Studios until it was time to execute the decision that was already made.
Quote from: Twisted Toon on February 05, 2013, 07:14:49 PM
Paragon Studios was blindsided by the decision, yes. The Execs at NCSoft took some time to think things over. They just didn't tell Paragon Studios until it was time to execute the decision that was already made.
In order to successfully prove fraud, however, you have to have hard evidence of that. Internal memos, recorded conversations, etc. It can be surprisingly difficult to prove willful fraud in court. Their defense will most likely be to place blame on Paragon for making those offerings without verifying with the parent company that they intended to continue operating the game.
One interesting tidbit is that if we do eventually get a community server, and hypothetically if NCSoft filed suit against the operator, discovery in civil suits works both ways. So that could potentially open the door for us getting our hands on all sorts of internal documents they might not want us to see.
Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on February 05, 2013, 02:41:49 AMSame goes for legos. It'd be hard to enforce, but a company could conceivably put a license agreement on ANYTHING, stating you can only use it for X number of years. And if you get caught with it after that date, you're in big doodoo.
What's really scary is, if nanotech could ever be made efficiently and cheap enough, this could actually become possible. Imagine every hammer having a tiny RF chip that doubles as a motion sensor. And if it gets swung into something after a certain date, it starts emitting a wi-fi signal to notify the business of a license violation.
...at which point the manufacturer receives a bill from the purchaser in the amount of a hundred times the cost of the hammer for charges incurred during the process of disposing of the hammer in an ecologically-safe manner.
Amazon has received a patent for creating artificial scarcity -- a process for putting controls on reselling and lending used digital goods (http://www.geekwire.com/2013/amazon-wins-patent-reselling-lending-used-digital-goods/) -- that would allow publishers to control transfer to other hardware. For example, restricting an e-book to only allow it to be put on three devices, or prevent resale of downloaded music.
Quote from: srmalloy on February 05, 2013, 08:12:16 PMAmazon has received a patent for creating artificial scarcity -- a process for putting controls on reselling and lending used digital goods (http://www.geekwire.com/2013/amazon-wins-patent-reselling-lending-used-digital-goods/) -- that would allow publishers to control transfer to other hardware. For example, restricting an e-book to only allow it to be put on three devices, or prevent resale of downloaded music.
Darn, for a minute I thought that was something else. Somewhere I read that the newest incarnation of the SOPA/PIPA war, was actually widening the definition of piracy. The entertainment industry allegedly wants to make it illegal to resell ALL PHYSICAL MEDIA.
QuoteBe straight with me, (redirect this message to whom it concerns I don't care if it takes more than the normal support response time so long as I get an official reply)
What are your terms for potential buyers of the Intellectual property to City of Heroes/Villains?
do not reply with "we are not selling"
be realistic, if you were to consider selling what would the terms be?
QuoteHi Clifford,
NCsoft does not plan to make City of Heroes available as open source or to sell the rights to use it.
Quotethen, if you have no plans to make the game available for sale, then why?
what is the purpose of keeping the rights? do you have definitely plans to use them? or are there some legal matters involved?
no matter the issues your company is facing regarding this, I would like an answer as to; why wont you sell the Itellectual Property rights of City of Heroes/Villains?
again take your time and give me an official answer.
right now I'm trying to get answers, rather than sit here wondering why and thinking up thier probable reasons I must find out why from thier own mouths.
if I know thier reasonsing we might be able to construct a case.
QuoteHi Clifford,
Our last reply is the most information we can provide you in regards to your request. In regards to further details about our decision, we can not discuss this information as it is internal only.
Sorry that we could not help in the way that you wanted,
hmm.. only internal eh? very well we will see just how internal it is... I will now go consult the spam emperor
QuoteI'm sorry, But I must insist.
as the fans of the game we have a right to know why. you can give this email to your boss and let him answer it.
QuoteHi Clifford,
Your ticket has been escalated to me as a supervisor for NCsoft Account Support.
Please understand that you're contacting the NCsoft Support Team and our purpose is to provide assistance to our players for active game accounts or billing issues. While I would like to address all of your questions for City of Heroes, we simply don't have any answers for you since the NCsoft Support Team is completely uninvolved in making any such decisions for the game. It is possible there are legal complications involved with selling City of Heroes servers or source codes but such information is not disclosed to the support team so we can't give you any definite information about it.
At this time, if you are interested in purchasing City of Heroes, you can submit a complete business proposal to webmaster@ncsoft.net for consideration. Please be advised that you may not receive a direct reply in regards to your submission.
Additionally, you might be able to obtain more information about this issue from our corporate headquarters, here is our corporate website: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/
Quote from: Ironwolf on February 05, 2013, 06:38:24 PMHe would never in a million years do that if it left him open to a 3rd party using his creation freely. I beleive NCSoft had the right to using your character IN GAME - however they wished. Making them an NPC, Main Hero/Villain, making posters with you in them and so on - but they do not own creative rights to the character. Very similar to how a radio station can play your song to highlight a broadcast but not change your song and call it something new.
Not just in-game; one of the rights you ceded was the right to use of the image for related purposes -- so, for example, they could use screenshots that included your character, or take the likeness and use it in one of their trailers, whenever they wanted.
Quote from: Ironwolf on February 05, 2013, 06:38:24 PM
I believe you to be wrong on that Blue Pulsar, I played directly with Jim Butcher on his Harry Dresden character.
He would never in a million years do that if it left him open to a 3rd party using his creation freely. I beleive NCSoft had the right to using your character IN GAME - however they wished. Making them an NPC, Main Hero/Villain, making posters with you in them and so on - but they do not own creative rights to the character. Very similar to how a radio station can play your song to highlight a broadcast but not change your song and call it something new.
There are a lot of things that people wouldn't do if they knew what was at stake. The EULA specifically states that they can use your character as they please. Now, this never happened as far as we know, but they had the right. It was what we agreed to every time we logged in. By using their medium to bring your creation to life, you gave them the right to also use it. Simply throwing the name of Jim out there doesn't change things. Now, since he copyrighted it in The Dresden Files, he has more weight, but could have gotten in trouble with NCSoft for using copyrighted material, but who knows.
Quote from: srmalloy on February 05, 2013, 10:50:48 PM
Not just in-game; one of the rights you ceded was the right to use of the image for related purposes -- so, for example, they could use screenshots that included your character, or take the likeness and use it in one of their trailers, whenever they wanted.
Basically this.
We own the rights to our characters. All NCsoft can do is use our characters if they so wish (highly unlikely since they see no value in Americanized superheroes), without owing us anything. Big difference from NCsoft suing us if we profit from doing something with our characters.
I am an idiot, I was pursuing a case that was 'iffy at best' it would have been hard to sue on these grounds.
My Subconscious however is a %$#@ing genius, it suddenly hit me with the perfect way to sue NCSoft, it turns out NCSoft did actally commit a crime by shutting down City of Heroes, a big crime that we can all tack in on with a class action lawsuit.
so bassically, I have found flawless legal grounds to sue NCSoft on.
for now I will keep the topic silent, though I have already talked with legal professionals about it and they are certain we have a winning case. however while talking with them I explained the situation but didn't name any companies. so for right now no one but me is sure what the case is and who I am sueing.
I will be getting a final opinion on the case from the BBB again without mentioning a company name just merely stating the facts.
I will elude however to the point of the suit to you; NCSoft made claims in thier ToS that were not legal for them to make as they violate certain laws, ergo we actually have grounds to sue on that the terms of service say we can't.
that is all I can say for now.
We can definitely sue to force NCSoft to let CoH to live agian (whether in thier hands or others) and we can sue for some monetary gains, more monetary gains can be sued for if they have met certian conditions (which will be forcefully extracted in court). and of coarse as always with this sort of lawsuit we can sue for compensation for court time/lawyers.
before I actually make this suit official (while I am still doing the final research) what does everyone say to this?
Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on February 05, 2013, 11:23:14 PM
We own the rights to our characters. All NCsoft can do is use our characters if they so wish (highly unlikely since they see no value in Americanized superheroes), without owing us anything. Big difference from NCsoft suing us if we profit from doing something with our characters.
I don't think anyone here was insinuating that NCSoft could sue us. The original debate was if we could sue NCSoft. My point has been, since the beginning of this thread, that, according to the EULA we "agreed" to when we logged in the game, they have the right to use our characters as they wish. For profit even. We also have the same right. Now, we have two things on them. We are the creators and we can copyright them. Other than that, they have as much liberty with our characters as we do as long as we put them on their servers.
But, I agree with you wholeheartedly that they care little to nothing about Americanized superheroes.
Quote from: Joshex on February 06, 2013, 03:53:18 AM
before I actually make this suit official (while I am still doing the final research) what does everyone say to this?
All I have to say is don't put this up as a Titan Network effort, nor really should you do your groundwork commentary on this forum. I'm posting a topic to the admin area to get some sort of consensus, but I have a feeling we won't want to be involved, as we've already said we're not going to go after NCsoft and won't assist players going after NCsoft.
Can NC Soft just delete all of our data (toons, achievements) everything? Is it not their "right" to do so? Any talk of a lawsuit in a forum could lead to that. Not saying we should not look into it, but lets keep it on the down low lest our stuff on their harware suddenly disappear. By our, I mean as individuals not Titan.
As Agge said, the Titan Network probably isn't the best place to round up support for a lawsuit. Personally, it's impossible to say whether I would support such an effort or not without knowing exactly what angle you have on the situation. If you really feel like you've got a case, I'd suggest following up on it and posting what you find out. If you want to drum up support for it, I'd suggest looking into starting a blog or Facebook page or something. One thing you should at least mentally prepare yourself for is the fact that a number of people here probably wouldn't want to associate themselves with a lawsuit even if it were airtight just on principle that whether it's moral or not, NCsoft should have the legal right to do what they want with their IP. And whether or not I personally agree with your tack on the legal situation, I'm not going to shut down people expressing that opinion. (Unless, of course, it violates other forum rules. I'm just saying that people saying "you're wrong!" isn't inherently trolling.)
I'm with Agg and Tony on this. Pissing NCSoft off in anyway is not really what this forum is all about, and it could be a not-so-good practice. I mean, I know no one here is going to want to kiss up to them, but remember this: They have something we want that is very, very, VERY important to us. Think about that for a bit.
Quote from: MindBlender on February 06, 2013, 05:39:44 AM
Can NC Soft just delete all of our data (toons, achievements) everything? Is it not their "right" to do so? Any talk of a lawsuit in a forum could lead to that. Not saying we should not look into it, but lets keep it on the down low lest our stuff on their harware suddenly disappear. By our, I mean as individuals not Titan.
More than likely this purge has already occurred; and it likely included Source Code, Art Assets, and the Character Database.
Quote from: Joshex on February 06, 2013, 03:53:18 AM
before I actually make this suit official (while I am still doing the final research) what does everyone say to this?
Even if the ToS included unenforceable claims (e.g. by agreeing to these Terms of Service you grant NCSoft an irrevocable right to your first-born child), they would simply be severed from the rest of the ToS.... to a service that is no longer being sold. There's no way that a court would order as a remedy for defective ToS that anybody be required to re-institute and perpetually run any service, or even to spend the money and effort to turn over the code and IP to any other party. I don't think any lawyer worth his salt would tell you that you have a winnable case (in this or any other manner) without going over the specific details, so I'd be really wary of somebody who offered to represent you in this without knowing the names of any of the other parties to the case.
IANAL, etc., etc.
Quote from: Zerias on February 06, 2013, 09:09:44 AM
More than likely this purge has already occurred; and it likely included Source Code, Art Assets, and the Character Database.
There are certainly backup copies of all three.
I'm trying to contact the BBB to get thier take on this, and no noone said they'd represent me just that what I was saying was illegal for a company to do.
basically we are able to ignore the ToS because it's fraudulent in the area of our law suit. I know the titan network doesn't want to go this road, and honestly I'd rather not go to this trouble either.
but we're going to have a hard time getting a company to buy the IP if every company we contact goes to talk with NCSoft and NCSoft shuts the door and acts like no one is home.
we really need to force them to consider selling the IP and actually according to certain laws we have every right to do so, what NCSoft did was illegal.
I'll send a PM to Tony V regarding this.
this isn't a matter of us being facetious or annoying, this is a matter of NCSoft doing something illegal and we are the only ones who can call them out on it.
Quote from: Joshex on February 06, 2013, 04:21:03 PM
I'm trying to contact the BBB to get thier take on this, and no noone said they'd represent me just that what I was saying was illegal for a company to do.
basically we are able to ignore the ToS because it's fraudulent in the area of our law suit. I know the titan network doesn't want to go this road, and honestly I'd rather not go to this trouble either.
but we're going to have a hard time getting a company to buy the IP if every company we contact goes to talk with NCSoft and NCSoft shuts the door and acts like no one is home.
we really need to force them to consider selling the IP and actually according to certain laws we have every right to do so, what NCSoft did was illegal.
I'll send a PM to Tony V regarding this.
this isn't a matter of us being facetious or annoying, this is a matter of NCSoft doing something illegal and we are the only ones who can call them out on it.
Having a hard time following this thread so I may have missed this discussion, but...
What was illegal? And what did a lawyer tell you was done illegally?
NCSoft is not going to talk to you about the sale of one of their older games without proof that you can afford to buy it.
They won't just say - Hi Cliff, sure send us a money order for $6 million made out to Mr. Kim and we will mail you the game on a thumb drive.
I have tried to get folks to understand that in big companies there are layers you have to penetrate. Level one is the screening of daily mail and emails. The main bosses do not read the mail until after it is screened by a secretary - EVER. They also do not get emails from an open account - the Corp account email is going to a secretary again or even a service which filter it and send to a secretary things they think are possibly worthwhile to consider.
To get to someone who could help you with deciding if they will sell the game it would likely take a formally written bid with proof of financing and your lawyer contacting their legal office to submit the bid. A random email flunky or even his boss or his boss's boss would have no clue as to whether they would sell anything.
It is a multi-BILLION dollar company. They are not gamers, they are business flunkies investing and selling games.
In fact rather than suing the company you would be even better served at sending them the stock report showing since they closed City of Heroes and alienated over 100,000 people their reputation with the gaming public has been badly tarnished. If they would like the very people who have stood up and fought against them now for 5 months to work FOR them, they could show an act of good faith and make public their willingness to sell the game to the highest bid recieved in the next 6 months.
THIS MIGHT provoke a response from someone more than a flunkie. If I did this I would work through the investor relations folks and buy a share or 2 of the stock first.
Quote from: Joshex on February 06, 2013, 04:21:03 PM
I'll send a PM to Tony V regarding this.
Tony V has already posted in this thread asking you not to do the groundwork discussion here. To do it elsewhere. Just curious on how you think a PM would make him change his mind? Titan Network folks have already stated a couple times that we won't assist with or host action against NCsoft.
Quote from: Aggelakis on February 06, 2013, 05:08:16 PM
Tony V has already posted in this thread asking you not to do the groundwork discussion here. To do it elsewhere. Just curious on how you think a PM would make him change his mind? Titan Network folks have already stated a couple times that we won't assist with or host action against NCsoft.
I'm just telling him the case info.
But that doesn't change our stance on not hosting or assisting with action against NCsoft. We're not saying you can't link to it here - but we're not going to host it, put discussion somewhere else. We're not going to help it. We don't want the possibility of it being seen as a Titan effort - when it's against Titan's wishes.
Quote from: Joshex on February 06, 2013, 04:21:03 PMI'll send a PM to Tony V regarding this.
Quote from: TonyV on February 06, 2013, 07:58:13 AM... the Titan Network probably isn't the best place to round up support for a lawsuit.
Quote from: Aggelakis on February 06, 2013, 05:08:16 PMTony V has already posted in this thread asking you not to do the groundwork discussion here. To do it elsewhere.
Joshex, how much clearer do they have to be?
Look,
you might be convinced that you have an airtight case. Sadly, you're the
only one. If Titan Network were to be seen hosting legal action against NCsoft, which then fails, it could be seen as attempting to rake NCsoft through the mud, which would hurt Titan's image and make it difficult for people to take our efforts seriously.
Heck, just launching litigation against NCsoft could hurt Titan Network's credibility. This would harm
every other effort Titan has launched to try and get CoH purchased, including Team Wildcard and Task Force Hail Mary. Do you really want to do that, Joshex?
If you want file a lawsuit against NCsoft, do it on your own terms, on your own time, on your own webspace, and with your own community and preferably, with your own
professional legal counsel. Not here. This community has got too much at stake to be involved in an action like this.
Quote from: Ironwolf on February 06, 2013, 04:52:10 PM
NCSoft is not going to talk to you about the sale of one of their older games without proof that you can afford to buy it.
They won't just say - Hi Cliff, sure send us a money order for $6 million made out to Mr. Kim and we will mail you the game on a thumb drive.
I have tried to get folks to understand that in big companies there are layers you have to penetrate. Level one is the screening of daily mail and emails. The main bosses do not read the mail until after it is screened by a secretary - EVER. They also do not get emails from an open account - the Corp account email is going to a secretary again or even a service which filter it and send to a secretary things they think are possibly worthwhile to consider.
To get to someone who could help you with deciding if they will sell the game it would likely take a formally written bid with proof of financing and your lawyer contacting their legal office to submit the bid. A random email flunky or even his boss or his boss's boss would have no clue as to whether they would sell anything.
It is a multi-BILLION dollar company. They are not gamers, they are business flunkies investing and selling games.
This.
Yup NCSoft is just as much gamers as Commodity buyers are farmers.
Don't worry, I Understand fully, this case has nothing to do with anyone here or titan network itself, and I will never claim so.
if anyone from here wants to help/join they will have to agree that they are doing so out of thier own desire and that it has nothing to do with thier ties to Titan Network.
I will put up a website of my own when it's underway.
now for something fun:
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/objection.swf?s=NCSoft%20your%20ToS%20cannot%20claim%20that!%20You%20do%20not%20have%20a%20right%20to%20do%20what%20you%27ve%20done!
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/objection.swf?s=Titan%20network%20does%20not%20condone%20or%20support%20my%20Lawsuit%20against%20NCSoft
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/objection.swf?s=I%20am%20not%20a%20female%20dog%20having%20puppies,%20you%20shut%20your%20%$#@!?%20mouth%20when%20Phoenix%20Wright%20is%20speaking! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/objection.swf?s=I%20am%20not%20a%20female%20dog%20having%20puppies,%20you%20shut%20your%20%$#@!?%20mouth%20when%20Phoenix%20Wright%20is%20speaking!)
I will hold off on any law suit until we get an outcome from V.V.'s contacts at google.
Yet you're still coordinating here, asking for help from people and announcing an upcoming website. Seriously, just the fact that this thread is here hurts Titan's image. I think it would be best deleted and this discussion taken completely elsewhere.
Quote from: Lightslinger on February 07, 2013, 11:50:26 AM
Yet you're still coordinating here, asking for help from people and announcing an upcoming website. Seriously, just the fact that this thread is here hurts Titan's image. I think it would be best deleted and this discussion taken completely elsewhere.
asking and making a statement are 2 different things, I was again echoing what has been requested by Titan network regarding this: to make clear that they have nothign to do with it and that anyone from here that joins in it will agree it is by thier own terms not from titan network.
besides I will not be linking the site I make to this thread, and currently I am not asking for support par'se infact I havn't even told anyone here openly what the lawsuit is about except Tony V whom is not affiliated with this in any way, and I plan to keep it that way.
Consider this my personal plan ZI Alpha, it comes into effect if negotiations fail and companies give up. cause to be honest with the case I came up with I could have NCSoft by the balls with my pet aligator jaws of life.
seriously, why didn;t we have such a powerset? Reptile Summoning summon multiple savage reptiles from aligators and snakes to dinosaurs and dragons lol
for now this thread will sink to the bottom of the thread list as there is currently no action associated with it.
Quote from: Joshex on February 07, 2013, 09:43:32 PM
seriously, why didn;t we have such a powerset? Reptile Summoning summon multiple savage reptiles from aligators and snakes to dinosaurs and dragons lol
* my feeble attempt to lighten the mood here*
Well, if the game went longer, it might have been a possibility, but something about the models. At one point, four legged creatures was considered to hard and unlikey but eventually with hard work, they made it happen.
I would have liked to make a villian lawyer that summons his friends in the form of snakes as the first set of pets, two alligators, and a mutant frog as the third tier pet that make a constant croaking sound or at least croaked when it dies.