Hello guys,
it is not intended to offend somebody, but... I was just laughing about how foolish we are. I mean, watch this:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo?ref=card
Over 1 mio. bucks pledged. Game will be designed now. 1 MILLION. GUYS! What's up here? And we're still begging somebody to buy COH like Disney?
Why not starting our new hero mmo there too? I'm pretty sure we will collect money, if it's just to buy stuff from ncsoft or to design our new hero mmo (plan Z). Then everything will run itself. I'm pretty sure there are people out there who want to invest some money into a new hero mmo (and after that long waiting time I believe COH is really past and we should start looking forward for creating our new hero game).
Ok, why I think it is important? Sometimes it is necessary to let the past go to look/walk into the future. I'm not telling this to make any fun here, for me I lost enough money and my loved chars with COH but I personally think we should start to look forward for our new hero MMO. And why not using kickstarter? Other games made it there too. So as long we're keeping our hands on the old COH these hands are not free for a new hero mmo (esp. when you make advertisements and other work/project to save the old game, the interest of people are not pushed forward to the new ideas and hero mmo (game mags etc.); I hope it was somehow understandable what I wanted to tell you...). :)
Your a few months late. We already started our own MMO operation... correction we started TWO. Both began as Plan Z operation. The last Plan if we can't have City of Heroes we make A new City for our Heroes/ and Villains.
The two projects now have their own Forums.
http://www.heroes-and-villains.com/phpb/index.php
http://missingworldsmedia.com
Many people are working on both. We not just tossing all our eggs into one basket.
Plans and ideas for fund raising including player owned housing. Some are already going forward and hopefully soon we see some content.
These projects are not on kickstarter... where you get the money from? How you want to know how many ppl. want to take part of the project and buy the game? These are only ideas offering and discussion sites. The first one offers a hero engine?
Edit: Actually it is missing any detailed information, what you guys are doing and offering now.
Kickstarter you need something to show once things get more developed where we have something to show then we move to Kickstarter and crowed raising operations. In other words we need a Tech Demonstration like they had on that video. Something to show we aren't just making something up. I remember being part of the Kickstarter talk.
Player Houses have been mentioned for Perks as well as other features.
The Goblinworks has it's own website and forum as well. Hope they do make that game it sounds like something I would try even thought I'm tired of the fantasy MMO one reason I went to CoH was it wasn't a typical fantasy game.
Ok thanks for updating me/us. At least you know about kickstarter and it seems you will use it then too, when the project goes further on. Be aware that I'm looking forward for it... (hinthinthint) to pledge something... ;D
I just wanted to also point out that Pathfinder Online already had full funding before the Kickstarter, the goal was to make enough money to cut down on development time not to fun the game itself. Even then they only just got to their goal and that was in large part due to a lot of neat offerings for the Pen & Paper game and the loyalty of Paizo's community. The deal ended up including a big super dungeon for the roleplaying game, miniatures, PDFs of game books and some other swag. They also had already run another Kickstarter for a 'tech demo' that was funded in June last year.
Don't get me wrong, I think that an eventual Kickstarter for a City of Heroes successor project would be a great idea and I'd happily back it. But the situation is quite different from the situation with Pathfinder Online at the moment.
Quote from: Rotten Luck on January 18, 2013, 12:44:51 PM
Kickstarter you need something to show once things get more developed where we have something to show then we move to Kickstarter and crowed raising operations. In other words we need a Tech Demonstration like they had on that video. Something to show we aren't just making something up. I remember being part of the Kickstarter talk.
Player Houses have been mentioned for Perks as well as other features.
Yep then it will be time for me to make the final convincements of why these projects are worthy of backing to people I know with "money laying around."
Quote from: JaguarX on January 18, 2013, 09:27:29 PM
Yep then it will be time for me to make the final convincements of why these projects are worthy of backing to people I know with "money laying around."
That's one of the reasons that we haven't started a Kickstarter yet, actually - We need to have a nice, professional-looking pitch before we do so, and having that is more important than rushing it and bungling it. :) (In my personal opinion, at the very least.)
I wasn't going to fund Pathfinder Online on Kickstarter. Other MMOs have offered pie in the sky and PO isn't even close to being done.
About the only way I can be convinced to fund a game in such early stages is if it has Arcana's stamp of approval on the maths.
I'm just curious, and this question has most likely been asked before, but what happens if/when you guys get one or both of the plan Zs almost done and CoH/V comes back, servers and all?
Likely at this point, they may well keep going. Really isn't any point not to unless it's 3 or 4 years to go. With todays engines and tech... I would be seriously surprised if a working demo wasn't available sometime this year from one of them, if not both.
Regardless of whether CoH is sold or not, I think one of these is committed to the whole shebang, becoming a competitor to CO and CoH outright. And given they are using any and all knowledge about how things worked in both, and others, it may well be the very dang best thing to ever hit the Internet since (The Game What's Name Shall Not Be Mentioned) (to those who see it that way) or Farmville to smartphones, and it or they will thrive like kudzu. :)
Quote from: Blue Pulsar on January 22, 2013, 12:49:11 AM
I'm just curious, and this question has most likely been asked before, but what happens if/when you guys get one or both of the plan Zs almost done and CoH/V comes back, servers and all?
yeah that is possible but probably best to keep going as they may bring it back, and lets say they just drop the project and leaveit be. Then uh oh, 1 year later they decide they are not makinge enough money again and shut down, or even if new company if for example they feel over their head or dont think the game is as popular, judged by in game population as they led on to be and shut down in 1 year. Then we are back in the same situation all over again.
Only way we can ensure that a game is ran for the player and with respect for the player is to be made by the players. Until then, we will be still at the mercy of companies ran by people that probably never played a video game in their life and the game being just another product among many that is supposed to make a certain amount of money and or when they tire of it, they just flip a switch and move on to another new product.
the best possible scenario would be if folks at titan somehow come into possession of the game code and IP if ncsoft decided to sell
it would definitely make the new projects a bit easier as they could just start running the game again and continue development on it instead of starting from scratch without using anything from the coh IP
The Plan Zs are the only reason I can think of that 'might' convince NCSoft it's worth selling the CoX IP. Because once the Plan Zs are available (assuming they're of the caliber of CoX), the IP will be worth next to zero. I don't think anyone here would play it if at that point NCSoft decided they'd reopen City or sell to 3rd party who'd reopen 'as is'. We're talking a 10 yr old game that hasn't seen an dev time in 1-2 yrs vs. a brand new successor built by people who loved the original.
Quote from: DarkCurrent on January 23, 2013, 12:33:04 AM
The Plan Zs are the only reason I can think of that 'might' convince NCSoft it's worth selling the CoX IP. Because once the Plan Zs are available (assuming they're of the caliber of CoX), the IP will be worth next to zero. I don't think anyone here would play it if at that point NCSoft decided they'd reopen City or sell to 3rd party who'd reopen 'as is'. We're talking a 10 yr old game that hasn't seen an dev time in 1-2 yrs vs. a brand new successor built by people who loved the original.
exactly, i think the main goal right now is to try to get the original game back ASAP, if that doesnt happen though there will still be work on the successors which when finished will most likely be able to replace coh if its like 95% same backend (ie game mechanics) but with completely new lore
Quote from: Memorandum on January 18, 2013, 12:18:13 PM
Hello guys,
it is not intended to offend somebody, but... I was just laughing about how foolish we are. I mean, watch this:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo?ref=card
Over 1 mio. bucks pledged. Game will be designed now. 1 MILLION. GUYS! What's up here? And we're still begging somebody to buy COH like Disney?
Why not starting our new hero mmo there too? I'm pretty sure we will collect money, if it's just to buy stuff from ncsoft or to design our new hero mmo (plan Z). Then everything will run itself. I'm pretty sure there are people out there who want to invest some money into a new hero mmo (and after that long waiting time I believe COH is really past and we should start looking forward for creating our new hero game).
Ok, why I think it is important? Sometimes it is necessary to let the past go to look/walk into the future. I'm not telling this to make any fun here, for me I lost enough money and my loved chars with COH but I personally think we should start to look forward for our new hero MMO. And why not using kickstarter? Other games made it there too. So as long we're keeping our hands on the old COH these hands are not free for a new hero mmo (esp. when you make advertisements and other work/project to save the old game, the interest of people are not pushed forward to the new ideas and hero mmo (game mags etc.); I hope it was somehow understandable what I wanted to tell you...). :)
I see what you're saying but; no, not really interested. I'll support the Plan Z projects and anything else in the works to the best of my ability but my main issue is;
I don't want a new game, I want my City back.
It's not just about the game for me. I lost the thing that means the most in the world to me as a direct result of NCSoft's stupidity and greed and I'm not talking about the game itself. My only real chance to get it back lies in getting City of Heroes back online.
I don't care if it takes 10 years to acquire City of Heroes. That's where I'm going to concentrate my efforts, now and forever until the day I draw my last breath.
The real world is where I survive. Paragon City is where I lived. I'm getting my City back, at any cost.
You always have to think about it that a Kickstart-Campain can also fail. Of coure we love our game, but not everyone have to think like that too so that we raised millions of dollars over there. You always need a Plan B when Kickstart is not woking...
Kickstart REQUIRES that you have a business plan in place before you are allowed to file. Neither Plan Z project is at that point yet. Kickstart also REQUIRES that you refund the money if your goals are not met, which basically means you can't spend any of that Kickstart money unless you are damn sure you are going to be able to make those goals.
So many people have no idea what Kickstart and Indiegogo require. It's actually a LOT; pretty much the same thing you would have to present to a bank to start a business. People have to have a reasonable expectation that what they crowdfund is actually going to happen, or none of these projects would ever get funded at all.
Pretty much what VV just said. It's a lot of work to put together a Kickstarter, and it's always in one's best interest to make sure one's goals are achievable.
Quote from: Victoria Victrix on January 24, 2013, 06:59:54 AM
Kickstart REQUIRES that you have a business plan in place before you are allowed to file. Neither Plan Z project is at that point yet. Kickstart also REQUIRES that you refund the money if your goals are not met, which basically means you can't spend any of that Kickstart money unless you are damn sure you are going to be able to make those goals.
Sounds like a good idea, Kickstarter or not. But yeah, that road is not ready to pave it seems yet for the Plan Z projects.
Unless the Plan Z is planning on being just some small time free app., then eventually a buisness plan will have to be set anyways. (again, Kickstarter or not.) And with any type of fund collection, unless it's specifically stated that even if the plan wont work, all money invested will be lost forever, then someone that gives money will expect their money back if things go belly up, Kickstarter or not. Otherwise it might as well been a donation....hmmmmm...donation eh?
"Nothing in this world is free. There is always a bill that someone somewhere has to pay." Time, money, knowledge, health, limbs, life etc.
Technically, Kickstarter is a donation. That they use PBS-style "rewards" at certain "donation levels" - rewards that sometimes include a copy of the product - doesn't change that there is no legal STAKE in the product that the donors get. It differentiates crowd funding from venture capitalism because it relies on people's willingness to spend money for something they want to be developed, rather than investing money they plan to recoup.
Quote from: Segev on January 24, 2013, 06:06:31 PM
Technically, Kickstarter is a donation. That they use PBS-style "rewards" at certain "donation levels" - rewards that sometimes include a copy of the product - doesn't change that there is no legal STAKE in the product that the donors get. It differentiates crowd funding from venture capitalism because it relies on people's willingness to spend money for something they want to be developed, rather than investing money they plan to recoup.
Yes by definition.
But in the context I was using, donation is money I give to someone which use of that money for stated purpose is ideal, I have no control or expectations of it as the money is no longer mine. I.e- transfer of ownership of the money with no expectation of delivery of a product or gains. Like the difference between loaning/investing someone money, with expectation of being paid back either with money and or product and donating, not expecting pay back.
In short-used as if loaned to family member who never pay back the loans with no wish to bring them to court to recoup the lost cash. It's basically money donated to their pockets with no chance of return.
Quote from: Memorandum on January 18, 2013, 12:40:52 PM
These projects are not on kickstarter... where you get the money from?
Private finance.
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I believe that most work being done on both projects so far is all volunteer effort. The bulk of the up-front cost of game development is labor. Having a staff of a few dozen developers and artists is really expensive. One thing about the City of Heroes community, though, is that there are a lot of really talented, professional people who are willing to donate their time, energy, and brainpower into making a spiritual successor to the game a reality.
I do know that The Phoenix Project is hoping to actually make money on the game after it launches, and has actually taken steps to form a corporation in anticipation of not being locked out of opportunities that require a so-called "real" business to deal with. It's my honest hope that one or more of these projects actually results in the formation of a brand new development studio with a heavy emphasis on community.
Keep in mind that I'm speaking for myself here, not on behalf of any Plan Z project or any official stance of the Titan Network...
...but I feel like our community--including Paragon Studios itself--got royally f*cked by NCsoft. But to be fair, I feel like gamers have been getting f*cked by most large game publishers for years now. Draconian DRM that is useless against piracy but that spies on and prevents legitimate users from playing, using downloadable content to prevent a second-hand game market, churning out substandard products and doing stuff like paying for positive reviews or issuing threats for negative reviews, nickle-and-diming people with microtranscations... the list goes on and on. Every time a company pushes the envelope, there's sound and fury, but it dies down and in another few months, some company pushes the envelope even further.
I for one am sick of it. I love gaming with a passion, but the regressive stuff that's been going on lately turns my stomach. People have asked me which game I'm moving on to. The honest answer is none, at least not yet. To be blunt, NCsoft has poisoned the well for me. While I always knew that at any given time, NCsoft could pull the plug and shut the whole thing down, practically speaking, I never actually thought they would do it as long as the game was successful. The fact that they did has made me VERY skittish about getting involved in another game as deep and engrossing--read: that takes as much time, effort, and money--as a full-blown MMORPG does. As I indicated above, once one studio pushes that envelope and other studios see that it's possible, who's to say that they won't do it too?
That's also a reason why I personally (again, not an official stance of the Titan Network) delight at the negative publicity that the Boycott NCsoft and part of the SaveCoH movements are generating. I want to see NCsoft punished for doing what they did. Not so much out of anger, but because the next time some idiot manager gets it in their head that they can kill off a game and kick its community to the side, I want SOMEBODY in the meeting to raise their hand and say, "Wait a minute, remember what happened when NCsoft killed off City of Heroes?"
There are some who argue that the era of MMORPGs is dead and gone. I don't subscribe to that view. I know that I'd LOVE to play a deep and engrossing game in a vast world full of adventure and opportunity. I've been playing Dungeons & Dragons since I was a teenager in the early 80s. In college it was a staple of weekend entertainment. Now that I'm all grow'd up and most of my social circle are people with young to teenage kids, no one has the time or will to play any more, and the Internet is the perfect place to keep the tradition alive.
But the thing is, if you play the pencil-and-paper version of Dungeon & Dragons, or something like Magic: The Gathering, and if the company were to go out of business tomorrow or otherwise decide that that game is no longer in their future plans, you still have the game. You can still get together with friends and play. That is obviously not true of an MMORPG like City of Heroes.
So yeah, I'm kind of off of MMORPGs for now. Not because I'm tired of the genre, I'm not. Not because there aren't any games out there that I like, there are. But because I simply can't invest what I did into City of Heroes into another game just to have it pulled out from under me, profit and community be damned.
...Which leads me to the Plan Z projects. I've probably been a bit of a thorn in the side of The Phoenix Project leaders, and I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this to Golden Girl at some point, but one thing I've consistently mentioned now and then is that the community needs to have an ownership stake in these projects. There needs to be assurances that even if they give up on the game, it won't just go kaput and everyone's time, money, and creative energy simply disappears.
If one or more of these projects ends up becoming a full-fledged independent game development studio, I want the top levels of management of that studio to do their dead level best to swing the pendulum of large publishers screwing over customers back towards showing people what a game publisher ought to be. Because I honestly believe that the main thing wrong with the MMORPG market right now isn't a lack of desire to play the games, it's that people need a company with a decent product that they feel actually looks out for them and doesn't diligently work to f*ck them for their money and move on to something else.
I know this post is kind of out of the blue, but it's definitely something that's been boiling up since August 31. I've got more thoughts on the matter, but it is 2:30am here and I have to work tomorrow, so they'll have to wait. :) And lest anyone misunderstands me, I still haven't given up on the prospect of NCsoft releasing the City of Heroes IP for the game to be resurrected at some point. There are definitely some great efforts being undertaken by Victoria Victrix, Quinch, and others to pursue that goal, and I am 100% on board with them. But given how NCsoft has been so far, I'm certainly not keeping all of my eggs in that one basket, either. I'm hoping that some day, we'll have an independent company and can write Taek-Jin Kim a letter saying, "You see? This is what NCsoft could have been, if you had just listened to us. Oh and by the way, hey industry, take note: we're here, and you're going to have to adapt to the new way of doing things if you want to stay competitive."
Quote from: TonyV on January 25, 2013, 07:36:21 AM
I'm hoping that some day, we'll have an independent company and can write Taek-Jin Kim a letter saying, "You see? This is what NCsoft could have been, if you had just listened to us. Oh and by the way, hey industry, take note: we're here, and you're going to have to adapt to the new way of doing things if you want to stay competitive."
I'll like that. ;D And would go a bit further: If Plan Z will show up with a working game, it will be a success either way - as the game is designed by gamers themself. "You see NCSoft, that's happening if you don't listen and care about your customers: We do not need you anymore." ;)
Hear hear Tony!
Tony I agree, and frankly this really isn't a game studio centric issue. This is a Corporation vs people issue. Corporations are designed to put profits first. We need to find a way to make it clear, the community, the customers, and the people are first.
If your business model supports the people who are your customers, it increases the likely hood of having a high customer retention rate, it also increases the likely hood of you having good PR, which in turn translates into respectable sales, which translates into a nice stock profile.
Corporations including game studios need to realize that strip mining your customer base, like any resource means eventually you run out of resources.
Quote from: TonyV on January 25, 2013, 07:36:21 AM
But the thing is, if you play the pencil-and-paper version of Dungeon & Dragons, or something like Magic: The Gathering, and if the company were to go out of business tomorrow or otherwise decide that that game is no longer in their future plans, you still have the game. You can still get together with friends and play. That is obviously not true of an MMORPG like City of Heroes.
This is a mantra I've been chanting for years....And one reason I resisted getting into online-only games for so long.
Earlier on, people from both Plan Z's claimed that at least some small amount of offline playing ability would be considered....don't know if that is still the case....I started back to school (at my advanced age...sheeesh) and have not had the time to keep up.
But, because of what NCSoft did, I refuse to pay for ANY other game that does not have some offline content. The return of COH might cause me to reconsider that...but I am not giving any money at all for any game that does not have at least a minimal offline playing ability.
Right behind you, Tony.
"I know this post is kind of out of the blue, but it's definitely something that's been boiling up since August 31."
Well, its pretty much what I've been saying since then, but then I'm at more liberty to. Feel better?
I have absolutely no objection to a game provider making money. I disapprove of get-rich-quick-and-easy schemes like selling "enhancements" for real money, but I'm perfectly pleased to purchase real, we-lavished-time-and-work-on-this content.
I also anticipated that some day, after a period of stagnation, CoH would run its course and cease operations. I expected the owners to be thoughtful and above-board about this. Instead they foisted a lot of new content on us, snapped up our money, and ran for the door.
They have indeed "poisoned the well" for me, and I doubt I will ever invest in a game that requires an online connection to play ever again. It's simply not worth the investment. I spent an order of magnitude more upon CoH than any other game in my selective little collection, and now it's the only one I can't play.
Yes, NCSoft must pay. Anyone who says otherwise is a... I don't have a polite way to express this metaphor... someone who likes being degraded, abused and robbed. NCSoft is slowly hemorrhaging money. Good.
One of our plans will, I've no doubt, come to fruition. For us non-programmers, it's a matter of patience. When they do, we'll have control, and no one will be able to wrest it from us. And we will have indeed accomplished "something important," and even salutary for the entire gaming industry.
Laugh with me -- mwuhahahaha!
Quote from: Colette on January 28, 2013, 12:28:45 AM
...
Yes, NCSoft must pay. Anyone who says otherwise is a... I don't have a polite way to express this metaphor... someone who likes being degraded, abused and robbed. NCSoft is slowly hemorrhaging money. Good.
...
I think NCSoft will pay in some manner, although I dont think I was robbed degraded and abused. But that doesnt mean I like being abused robbed degraded. I payed a month, I got month worth access to the game. When it went into the closing process, I would have gotten a refund according to the announcement around Sept. time period. Money I spend on MMO is not money I miss. Just mere spare change laying around that probably would have been lost and or spent on some other form of entertainment. Do they deserve to pay? Not anymore nor less than any other corporation that makes a decision to kill a product. If every corporation that killed a product that I liked deserved to pay then that would mean that about 50% of corporations in existance deserve to pay. But pay what? I payed them money, I got what I payed for. They didnt rob me a month worth of game time. In the end from the looks of it, if I chose to partake, I would have gotten about three months or $45 worth of free VIP game time that I didnt pay for.
Quote from: JaguarX on January 28, 2013, 04:06:53 AM
I think NCSoft will pay in some manner, although I dont think I was robbed degraded and abused. But that doesnt mean I like being abused robbed degraded. I payed a month, I got month worth access to the game. When it went into the closing process, I would have gotten a refund according to the announcement around Sept. time period. Money I spend on MMO is not money I miss. Just mere spare change laying around that probably would have been lost and or spent on some other form of entertainment. Do they deserve to pay? Not anymore nor less than any other corporation that makes a decision to kill a product. If every corporation that killed a product that I liked deserved to pay then that would mean that about 50% of corporations in existance deserve to pay. But pay what? I payed them money, I got what I payed for. They didnt rob me a month worth of game time. In the end from the looks of it, if I chose to partake, I would have gotten about three months or $45 worth of free VIP game time that I didnt pay for.
oooooooh, listen you, how dare you use logic and sense in this matter. Can't you see we're trying to hate irrationally? =oP
I don't want to go into things but NCSoft did rob me. NCSoft robbed me of the only life I have wanted for two years now and seeing as how I didn't really want life prior to that, it comes as a terrible blow. I never really expected NCSoft to consider my personal life in their business decisions but they went ahead and made one and in the process they f*ed me royally. I do not wish to go into details but suffice it to say that NCSoft took something that's more valuable to me than all the money in the world and I will take every opportunity available to make NCSoft bleed for something that they can never ever pay back. Three months of free VIP isn't worth diddly squat next to that. All my life, I have hated true violence and always gone the peaceful route. I hate who NCSoft has made me into. I now know in my heart that if I was locked in a room with NCSoft's executives, not only do I know that I would not be able to control myself; I know that I wouldn't even try.
I hate that.
"I paid them money, I got what I paid for."
"...listen you, how dare you use logic and sense in this matter. Can't you see we're trying to hate irrationally?"
Sorry Jaguar, we're gonna hafta agree to disagree on this one. Knight Light, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, what with all the hyperbole on these boards. If you are, you're engaging in ad hominem and Straw Man fallacy, and it is you who have transgressed against logic.
I feel that NCSoft committed grave discourtesies against us, the players, and in my very first post here, enumerated "how to shut down an MMO" without angering and alienating one's paying customers. It wasn't PR subtleties or arcane cultural sensitivities either, it was common sense stuff about taking others' feelings into consideration, not leaving them feeling ripped off or throwing people away like used tissue once you're done with 'em.
So y'see, I can't help but interpret your positions as "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." Well, looking at the hard, quantifiable evidence of NCSoft's stock performance since their announcement, their stockholders are angry at them too.
But Colette it wasn't a case of closing an MMO as it was shuttering a studio that they considered underperforming (at least according to NCsoft). CoH was the baby in the bathwater. Collateral damage. And it's likely that for reporting reasons, such as getting the studio and game off the books by the end 2012, before the reorg in the west, that they needed them to close immediately.
Sadly game studios have these kinds of sudden closures all the time. One day you're open, next day there's a guard at the door and your stuff has been carelessly stuffed into boxes that are way to small stacked haphazardly in the lobby (word of advice, don't bring in your valuable mint in package Major Matt Mason to display in your office).
NCsoft didn't just fire the devs at Paragon, they "fired" all of us. Sure they graciously kept the game open for another 3 months (not sure how much of that was required by law) but in the end we were all "let go". And for some reason reducing the staffing at Paragon down to "Freem 15" levels just to support the game was not an option that they were willing to consider. Getting I24 stable and released wasn't an option they were willing to consider. Preparing an end of world event wasn't an option they were willing to consider. They needed the studio closed immediately so all expenses associated with it are off the books by Dec 30 and tied up in a neat bow.
Also don't forget that about a week after shutting down the servers there were layoffs at NC Interactive, which according to the org chart NCsoft published is who Paragon was under, and then a week or so after that the announcement about reorganization of their entire western assets. Day to day operations for Aion and Lineage 2 in Europe had already been taken over by 3rd parties with NCsoft taking royalties early in 2012. Their only games that are out now in Europe, that are still directly run by NCsoft, are the two Guild Wars games. However they are looking to keep control of both Blade & Soul and Wildstar when they come out, everywhere.
It sucks being laid off from your preferred choice of entertainment but that's what NCsoft did to us.
Edit: yet, let ... tomato, potato ???
Quote from: Colette on January 28, 2013, 05:46:06 PM
So y'see, I can't help but interpret your positions as "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." Well, looking at the hard, quantifiable evidence of NCSoft's stock performance since their announcement, their stockholders are angry at them too.
Ah here lies the problem. It seems you are assuming I'm saying, NCSoft owes nothing to no one but their shareholders. See the point you misses is that I'm not talking about whether or not NCSoft owes anyone or someone or no one. I'm saying they do not owe me. I'm only speaking for myself and not anyone else. For others, NCSoft owes trhem dearly, as Knight said, as they destroyed something that rises beyond money. For me, it was a mere subscription that I paid for and I felt, you forgot the multiple "I"s in my previous statements, meaning I'm only talkign with regards only to myself, as they gave me what I paid for. Other people will experience different which is suppose to happen as if Knight didnt even allude to it, I wouldnt have known COX had that deep of a meaning to it. I could tell just by his statement in his reply to me, it meant a lot that money could not buy and something a price cannot be placed on. But even then I was just replying to mostly the statement that for the opposite end of the spectrum consisted of people that liked to be robbed abused and degraded. There might be some out there that felt the same as me, but I cant say, I dont know. I only know how I feel in regards to whether or not I was robbed, abused, and degraded, which in a nutshell was saying that is not the case for me, and only speaking for me.
There is really nothign to disagree about. You feel how you feel and I feel how I feel. As I mentioned, I gave not a slightest bit or rather gave no intentional indication I was speaking for any amount of the population outside myself. If that is what you gathered out of my statements when I for example said "I paid them money, I got what I paid for.", then I apologize for the confusion. Please let me know how I can make it clearer in the future that I only speak for myself and how I feel and view it?
Not to mention it's slightly annoying words being put into my mouth. No where did I say that "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." and not sure how you gathered that out of my statements from saying that I feel that NCSoft owes ME nothing. Unless you consider me a spokes person for everyone else, which although flattering you put me that high up as a respesentative for numerous people, that is not the case. It's only me. But if you really want my opinion about whether or not I think NCSoft owes consideration and courtesy to people and how much, then that is probably best for another topic or PM.
Jag, I said you and I would need to agree-to-disagree. I've courteously explained my position, and why we disagree. I have explained my understanding of your position with absolutely no "words being put into your mouth." Let it go. People are allowed to disagree.
Father Xmas, I don't really have a lot of experience with so-called corporate behavior. If you have greater experience, I defer to it.
But I believe... NCSoft is made up of people, and so was Paragon, and so was the playerbase. I recognise when a person or group of people have concern and consideration and respect for other parties, and when they are dismissive, uncaring and utterly self-absorbed.
Your argument boils down to, "it was only business." Simply saying "it's business"as if that incantation somehow magically grants a person or group carte blanche to act however they choose... well, that doesn't hold water with me. It's not how I would run a business, it's not how I expect to be treated as a customer.
So once again, I refer back to my original post, "How to Shut Down an MMO." For example, releasing a major product (in this case, "Nature Mastery") a mere three days before announcing cancellation without notice, in my opinion, constitutes a grievous example of bad faith, violating the spirit if not the letter of our contract with them. As I wrote above, they "snapped up our money and ran for the door." That is not business, that is bad business.
"Sadly game studios have these kinds of sudden closures all the time. One day you're open, next day there's a guard at the door and your stuff has been carelessly stuffed into boxes that are way to small stacked haphazardly in the lobby...."
That is another example of many discourtesies suffered by those foolish enough to do business with NCSoft, the sum of which paint a very, very ugly picture of blind avarice and ruthlessness. As he posted above, Tony hopes to see NCSoft punished for such collective arrogance, as a salutory example to others. I concur. You are free to disagree.
Quote from: Colette on January 28, 2013, 09:34:28 PM
Jag, I said you and I would need to agree-to-disagree. I've courteously explained my position, and why we disagree. I have explained my understanding of your position with absolutely no "words being put into your mouth." Let it go. People are allowed to disagree.
And I explained that your understanding of what I was saying is not what I was saying. Your own words
"So y'see, I can't help but interpret your positions as "NCSoft owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders." Well, looking at the hard, quantifiable evidence of NCSoft's stock performance since their announcement, their stockholders are angry at them too."
And I replied that is not my position at all bascially. Of course we can agree to disagree but insinuating that I'm speaking for more than myself and stating my position as the quote of yours above is wrong and not what I'm doing at all. That is all I was saying in my reply to you.
If you wanted it be let go you shouldnt have replied to me in the first place and just let it go yourself. Instead you invented a reason and basically assigned it to what I was saying. I'm not saying you cant disagree. I'm just saying that quote as you assigned as my postion is not my position, as one I did not say that was position. Two, I speak for no one but myself. Yes, you did put words in my mouth with that quote alone there. You speak of letting it go and saying people are allowed to disagree yet just because you disagree with how I feel NCSoft treated me, which I not sure how you can disagree with how I felt NCSoft treated me since it is my feelings afterall and I wasnt talking about how ncsoft treated anyone else, just me, you deduced it to mean my position means "I think owes nothing, not even courtesy and consideration, to anybody except its stockholders". How about taking your own advice and let people have their own interpretation of how they feel about NCSoft's action as it pertains to themselves. You feel ripped off? Fine. I dont. And that is all I was saying. I wasnt disagreeing agreeing or anythign of the likes with anyones. Just merely saying I keyword you keep missing
I felt I got my money worth.
Quote from: FatherXmas on January 28, 2013, 06:53:02 PM
NCsoft didn't just fire the devs at Paragon, they "fired" all of us. Sure they graciously kept the game open for another 3 months (not sure how much of that was required by law) but in the end we were all "yet go". And for some reason reducing the staffing at Paragon down to "Freem 15" levels just to support the game was not an option that they were willing to consider. Getting I24 stable and released wasn't an option they were willing to consider. Preparing an end of world event wasn't an option they were willing to consider. They needed the studio closed immediately so all expenses associated with it are off the books by Dec 30 and tied up in a neat bow.
The closure felt rushed and taking into consideration what you have said above, it really appears that the ground was burning under their feet. It's almost like they didn't anticipate the closure themselves. Why?
This is the million dollar question. They could have handled this a lot better and actually showed they cared about their customers. Instead they fired all the bar tenders, flipped the 'Closed' sign on the door, and shouted 'last call'.
Quote from: Colette on January 28, 2013, 05:46:06 PM
Knight Light, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, what with all the hyperbole on these boards. If you are, you're engaging in ad hominem and Straw Man fallacy, and it is you who have transgressed against logic.
Only the part you quoted was said with humour and sarcasm, the rest I was serious.
I'm not sure where the transgression takes place, I'm not entirely against NCSoft's position, CoH is their property; they can do what they want with it ultimately. However, their actions have caused me an immeasurable degree of pain and I intend to share it with them at first opportunity. Mayhaps, a necklace of executive teeth will be made, who knows really. The data at hand suggests to me that none of this had to happen; it seems as though CoH was profitable enough for a company of reasonable intelligence to keep open and if Paragon Studios itself was unprofitable, it seems it was by NCSoft's own doing.
Speaking humorously and not with any actual intention; I say kill 'em, kill 'em good.
Quote from: Little Green Frog on January 28, 2013, 10:11:58 PM
The closure felt rushed and taking into consideration what you have said above, it really appears that the ground was burning under their feet. It's almost like they didn't anticipate the closure themselves. Why?
No idea. Maybe by the time the figured out what kind of reorganization they wanted and get everyone at corporate to sign off on it they needed to act immediately. Or they knew what they were planning but decided to not tell Paragon until the last minute. Sort of the same way a boss would keep mum about layoffs until D-day. You know "Sorry Chuck but we need to cut back on costs so you need to clean out your desk now with this nice guard looking over you shoulder and then go to HR to sign the paperwork. And could you send Sally over."
Maybe it's just an example of disconnected Paragon was to the Seoul mothership. Or maybe Paragon was just following Nick Fury's lead; "Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on." So yes they release a new powerset just days before the plug got pulled because if it didn't why upset the schedule?
And my locking the doors story refers to EA or Infogames or THQ or any number of companies that by up studios, milk them dry and then kill them off or drive off the talent that made those studios worth buying in the first place. Sadly that's the way the games industry is. Don't expect to work for any one studio for more than a few years because most studios are like soap bubbles or fireworks, there one minute, gone the next. Studios live Valve are few and far between.
Quote from: Knight Light on January 29, 2013, 05:59:05 AM
... and if Paragon Studios itself was unprofitable, it seems it was by NCSoft's own doing.
Explain this comment please, I'm curious.
Quote from: FatherXmas on January 29, 2013, 06:08:08 AM
No idea. Maybe by the time the figured out what kind of reorganization they wanted and get everyone at corporate to sign off on it they needed to act immediately. Or they knew what they were planning but decided to not tell Paragon until the last minute. Sort of the same way a boss would keep mum about layoffs until D-day. You know "Sorry Chuck but we need to cut back on costs so you need to clean out your desk now with this nice guard looking over you shoulder and then go to HR to sign the paperwork. And could you send Sally over."
I have seen better lay-offs numerous times. In fact, the best one I've seen, in my opinion, was from Northrop Grumman. They let everyone know that they will have to reduce the work force by a certain number of people and ask for volunteer retirement first. Then they go in and lay off employees after the volunteers...well, volunteer.
My understanding of this debacle is that Paragon Studios had no warning and was as blindsided by the closure as we were.
Putting aside NCSoft's ineptitude and total mismanagement of it's resources, it doesn't appear as though they ever had any intention of releasing the "secret project". The devs have stated the game was profitable but that Lincoln Davis jackass stated the studio was unprofitable; what made it unprofitable? The staff and development of the secret project? Was that personnel there before the start of the secret project, whisked away from their CoH duties or were they added after? Wouldn't a responsible company that knows what it's doing know how to budget itself because a game tends to not make any money when it's, y'know, not finished? They couldn't claim City of Heroes wasn't profitable, so they never did. The secret project was supposed to be a compromise for not supporting PS on CoH2 but it looks to me like it was used as an excuse to drive Paragon Studios into the red so they could claim on a technicality that it wasn't profitable.
If I'm missing something, please let me know, I've been a little in and out of the threads lately. Thanks to NCSoft, I've been trying to figure out if I still like video games. The short answer is no, I don't. That's another thing they owe me for.
"Only the part you quoted was said with humour and sarcasm, the rest I was serious."
Fair 'nuff, Knight Light, and while you have felt more pain and grief than I over CoH's closure, I'm not gonna try to invalidate your feelings. This has been a hard time for us all, or we wouldn't be here. I'm sorry it's been even harder for you.
It's not the closure of CoH that I resent. I'm mature enough to know that all good things must end. But the way they did it violates certain abstract principles that I hold dear. People are simply not to be treated that way.
"My understanding of this debacle is that Paragon Studios had no warning and was as blindsided by the closure as we were."
As I understand it, and I'm working on hear-say here, our devs were called into a meeting Friday morning. There they were informed, and security escorted them outside the building rather than allow them to return to their workstations or offices.
I could understand that sort of behavior toward a DoD contractor or some other Serious Business. A game company? Hogwash! Again, people are simply not to be treated that way.
Quote from: Colette on January 29, 2013, 09:02:37 AM
Fair 'nuff, Knight Light, and while you have felt more pain and grief than I over CoH's closure, I'm not gonna try to invalidate your feelings. This has been a hard time for us all, or we wouldn't be here. I'm sorry it's been even harder for you.
Thank you. =*)
*ahem*
*cough*
/e FeebleAttemptToRegainComposure02
Well, I fully resent the closure. I respect their right to do what they want with their property but this was entirely the wrong time. At a bare minimum, CoH had 3 good years left. Issue 24 wasn't deeply revolutionary but I do feel it would have been a crowning achievement for Paragon Studios and the start of a new era. Imagine, an age of utility belts in Paragon City. It was an insult to deprive the devs of bringing their work to us.
Every last thing about this situation was wrong to the bone.
NCSoft is a gaming company; they are in the business of play and yet they declared loudly and blatantly, they are not willing to play with us.
If NCsoft would have cared about the fans they would've started cutting costs, transition the game to maintenance mode while looking for a buyer. I have no doubt CoH would've been sold and still be operating in some capacity today if they'd done this. However, NCsoft believes, as they have shown multiple times (Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Dungeon Runners, Exteel) that they want to kill IPs forever when they close them. It will take a complete management change at NCsoft to get these games back.
So, I'll reiterate my soap-box since day 1 of the announcement closure; a CoH private server is the only chance of getting our game back. Given NCsoft's stance on how they treat IPs I'm completely OK with the legal dubiousness of a private server and will support one 100%.
That was an amazing post, Tony!
Have you ever considered writing professionally? Or maybe you already do, I don't know....
Quote from: Twisted Toon on January 29, 2013, 06:41:41 AM
I have seen better lay-offs numerous times. In fact, the best one I've seen, in my opinion, was from Northrop Grumman. They let everyone know that they will have to reduce the work force by a certain number of people and ask for volunteer retirement first. Then they go in and lay off employees after the volunteers...well, volunteer.
My understanding of this debacle is that Paragon Studios had no warning and was as blindsided by the closure as we were.
Ah yes I heard of some companies doing this. Although I also seen many where there wasnt any volunteers. On the other hand I seen companies where they just mail out pink slips, some hand them out work still. I knew a few people who was let go over email due to cut backs. One company have this one guy from HR that workers call him the "grim reaper", because when you see this guy it means someone is going home today for good.
Some places help the ex-worker find work, some even go as far as offer a position in a different location or part time "consulting". While other boot you out the door immediately.
A similar thing happened to a call center around here about 4 years. They fired everyone locked the doors the next day. Over 90 people laid off in one day. This was so they could set up shop in India. No one got any warnings. The company released statement saying that the reason they released everyone without notice was that they didnt want the employees to negativelty affect sales. Here in the ELP I dont think they have 90 day law and or no one follows it. Same day layoffs are pretty common around here out side gov. organizations which have their own policies.
Quote from: Knight Light on January 29, 2013, 07:04:51 AM
The devs have stated the game was profitable but that Lincoln Davis jackass...
To be fair, Lincoln Davis isn't a jackass. He's a PR guy. His job is to convey whatever goofy message the executives at NCsoft instruct him to. Make sure your anger isn't misplaced; it should be directed to the executives that made the decision, not the messenger who's trying to spin what's going through their head. He likely doesn't personally have access to the numbers he was talking about, so as far as he knows, what he said was true.
I will fault him for one thing, though. As PR guy, he really needs to be pushing
hard back up the chain how important this is to NCsoft's player community. And to be fair again, maybe he is, I dunno. I've heard that we do have allies within NCsoft, but they're being suppressed and overridden by other executive forces within the corporate offices of Korea.
To me our job is quite simple:
We must make NCSoft understand that because of their actions towards the MMO community we have no interest in buying or paying for another game that they will cancel on a whim. They have poisoned the well and I have zero interest in playing another game at the moment. I am a 53 year old man who has gamed for over 30 years and they showed that the money and time I invested in their game was a waste of time.
A game making a profit was dumped and guess who was paying for that game? WE WERE.
I will not be paying them a single penny again and will warn all of my friends and fellow gamers not to play on their games. The reason that games go into maintenance mode is to retain the good will of the paying public who like to once in a while fire up that old dog and see if it will still hunt. They just kill the games and ignore the PLAYERS. Well we need to show them we not only will ignore them but actively seek to do them harm by not buying their products.
Y'all aren't wrong. The sort of no-warning deprivation-of-livelihood Jag describes are becoming more common. And uglier.
And the one nice thing I will say about the way NCSoft handled this is I understand they held job fairs for the Devs, and helped them find alternative work. That's setting a good example. There, I said something nice about NCSoft. Alert the media.
However, I disagree that our job is to make NCSoft understand -- anything. No offense, Ironwolf. It would be great if we could make MMO publishers understand there will be a backlash and severe PR penalties for shutting a game down brutally.
Nonetheless, I think our job now -- is to get back into Atlas Park, by "blue" methods like VV's effort to find a buyer, or "red" methods of cracking the codes and hosting a pirate server. (While I'm viscerally opposed to IP inrfringements, this is the exception that proves the rule.)
Yeah, let's continue to warn our fellow gamers away from NCSoft. I'm proud of the memes I created against them. But until they fold and their IPs are put up for auction, I suspect they're no longer relevant to our quest to return to Atlas Park.
Quote from: TonyV on January 29, 2013, 04:07:52 PM
To be fair, Lincoln Davis isn't a jackass. He's a PR guy. His job is to convey whatever goofy message the executives at NCsoft instruct him to. Make sure your anger isn't misplaced; it should be directed to the executives that made the decision, not the messenger who's trying to spin what's going through their head. He likely doesn't personally have access to the numbers he was talking about, so as far as he knows, what he said was true.
I will fault him for one thing, though. As PR guy, he really needs to be pushing hard back up the chain how important this is to NCsoft's player community. And to be fair again, maybe he is, I dunno. I've heard that we do have allies within NCsoft, but they're being suppressed and overridden by other executive forces within the corporate offices of Korea.
Well, to be fair, none of this was fair.
I should be spending time with the woman I love, but I'm not.
However, I see your point. My anger isn't misdirected, it's simply undiluted and filtering out as gobs of pure hatred when it's not unending utter sadness. I'll do what I can to keep it in check.
So, fine, the Lincoln Davis puppet said the studio was unprofitable.
Better?
Quote from: TonyV on January 29, 2013, 04:07:52 PM
I will fault him for one thing, though. As PR guy, he really needs to be pushing hard back up the chain how important this is to NCsoft's player community. And to be fair again, maybe he is, I dunno. I've heard that we do have allies within NCsoft, but they're being suppressed and overridden by other executive forces within the corporate offices of Korea.
Tony you are confusing PR with customer relations. A PR guy's only job is to convey the "official" line to the media and nothing more. He is a face for the media, not a conduit for player concerns.
Quote from: JaguarX on January 28, 2013, 04:06:53 AM
I think NCSoft will pay in some manner, although I dont think I was robbed degraded and abused. But that doesnt mean I like being abused robbed degraded. I payed a month, I got month worth access to the game. When it went into the closing process, I would have gotten a refund according to the announcement around Sept. time period. Money I spend on MMO is not money I miss. Just mere spare change laying around that probably would have been lost and or spent on some other form of entertainment. Do they deserve to pay? Not anymore nor less than any other corporation that makes a decision to kill a product. If every corporation that killed a product that I liked deserved to pay then that would mean that about 50% of corporations in existance deserve to pay. But pay what? I payed them money, I got what I payed for. They didnt rob me a month worth of game time. In the end from the looks of it, if I chose to partake, I would have gotten about three months or $45 worth of free VIP game time that I didnt pay for.
Here's the basic problem imo Jag. You are viewing this from only the bottom line standpoint. Well frankly, like Tony was saying, that won't do anymore. There is a growing sentiment in the gaming industry that at some point, so much creative effort is put into a game like CoH that it ceases to be 'just a game' and becomes
art. Moreover, the effect it has on the hundreds of thousands of people who play becomes deeply seated in the consciousness, just like any other art does. Does great music affect you? You bet it does and much more-so than most people realize.
Like the professor at Stamford pointed out:
"When a game shuts down, it can be an emotional blow to players. Dr. Henry Lowood, Curator of History of Science and Technology Collections for Stanford University Libraries, says, "When you have memories, a sense of space, you always have a sense of having been somewhere. You end up with associations with that world. Even though you know they're not real, the associations are real. When those are disrupted—especially in a way that would be catastrophic, when it goes dark—it's like a tidal wave or an earthquake wiping out a town. It's not exactly the same, but emotionally and in terms of memories, it's very similar."
No Corporation, Government, Religious organization or any other authoritative body has the right to destroy art, not now, not ever. Book burning is always wrong.
Quote from: Jonfan on January 29, 2013, 11:31:06 PM
Here's the basic problem imo Jag. You are viewing this from only the bottom line standpoint. Well frankly, like Tony was saying, that won't do anymore. There is a growing sentiment in the gaming industry that at some point, so much creative effort is put into a game like CoH that it ceases to be 'just a game' and becomes art. Moreover, the effect it has on the hundreds of thousands of people who play becomes deeply seated in the consciousness, just like any other art does. Does great music affect you? You bet it does and much more-so than most people realize.
Like the professor at Stamford pointed out:
"When a game shuts down, it can be an emotional blow to players. Dr. Henry Lowood, Curator of History of Science and Technology Collections for Stanford University Libraries, says, "When you have memories, a sense of space, you always have a sense of having been somewhere. You end up with associations with that world. Even though you know they're not real, the associations are real. When those are disrupted—especially in a way that would be catastrophic, when it goes dark—it's like a tidal wave or an earthquake wiping out a town. It's not exactly the same, but emotionally and in terms of memories, it's very similar."
No Corporation, Government, Religious organization or any other authoritative body has the right to destroy art, not now, not ever. Book burning is always wrong.
Yep I'm well familiar with that quote and understand how it can affect some people, but of course not everyoen is affected the same and those that are not affected the same doesnt mean automatically they enjoy abuse, or being robbed, or have no feelings.
As with music. Some people play music to fit their mood or to get into that mood. Music dotn have that affect on me. But I know many people where when they are sad, they play sad music, when they are happy or want to be happy, they play cheerful music, and some go as far that they play music that fits their personality and or how they view the world. Music do not affect me as so. It's music and if it has agood beat, I play it and thus within an hour it is not unusual for me to play Nirvana talking about suicide to a gospel song by Kirk Franklin, to Marylyn Manson Dope show, to Paula Adul Straight up, to Michael Jackson thriller, to Johnny Cash Tennesse Stud to Slayer South of Heaven and end it with The Game-Money. It's just happen to be music that I find pleasing to the ear.
While many feel, and rightfully so, that is seemed that offing COX felt like "catastrophic, when it goes dark—it's like a tidal wave or an earthquake wiping out a town. It's not exactly the same, but emotionally and in terms of memories, it's very similar", those wasnt the feelings for me but I understand those that do. I'm sure there is some stuff that I view is very catestrophic, like Mercedes design for the S-Class of 2007-current is that type of feeling but to others, it's just a car. How am I supposed to buy a new MBZ that is ugly as I dont know what. I been buying them for years and now what, I have Jaguar and BMW left for a decent ride with nice designs but still, they are not Mercedes. Just as there is CO and DCUO, but it's not COX.
Quote from: Colette on January 29, 2013, 09:02:37 AM
It's not the closure of CoH that I resent. I'm mature enough to know that all good things must end. But the way they did it violates certain abstract principles that I hold dear. People are simply not to be treated that way.
Colette that is the nail on the head. Couldn't of put it better my self, its the lack of empathy and the complete selfishness that makes me angry, the game wasn't mine it was NCSofts they could do what they please with their game, but not with their fans. As a musician I wouldn't betray the fans I do have and hope to have in the future, I would never just disappear or stop making music without a long and detailed reason why and I wouldn't do it without one final goodbye Album (or EP with the way music is these days). NCSoft is not better then their fans like they think. Sure it was their game but we loved/played/and payed for it and they could of at least given us an end of the world good bye with a well thought out apology and a consideration to sell it.
I guess the point is, people before money. Because without the people they wouldn't have the money. I tell you what every show I have ever played, ended with me telling the audience to give them self a hand because in all reality without them I am just some dude on the stage with a guitar.
Quote from: Taceus Jiwede on January 29, 2013, 11:48:06 PM
Colette that is the nail on the head. Couldn't of put it better my self, its the lack of empathy and the complete selfishness that makes me angry, the game wasn't mine it was NCSofts they could do what they please with their game, but not with their fans. As a musician I wouldn't betray the fans I do have and hope to have in the future, I would never just disappear or stop making music without a long and detailed reason why and I wouldn't do it without one final goodbye Album (or EP with the way music is these days). NCSoft is not better then their fans like they think. Sure it was their game but we loved/played/and payed for it and they could of at least given us an end of the world good bye with a well thought out apology and a consideration to sell it.
I guess the point is, people before money. Because without the people they wouldn't have the money. I tell you what every show I have ever played, ended with me telling the audience to give them self a hand because in all reality without them I am just some dude on the stage with a guitar.
Excellent point.
You say that "As a musician I wouldn't betray the fans I do have and hope to have in the future, I would never just disappear or stop making music without a long and detailed reason why and I wouldn't do it without one final goodbye Album" Yet, suppose, Im just saying suppose, NCSoft do not consider or even want nor care to have ex-COXers as fans anymore or in the future?
Quote from: JaguarX on January 29, 2013, 11:47:24 PM
As with music. Some people play music to fit their mood or to get into that mood. Music dotn have that affect on me.
I don't want to beat this horse anymore; it's completely off topic. But I will say that, with respect, I think you are one of those people who don't realize just how much music can affect us.
You probably weren't around back then but in my lifetime I've seen music help stop an unjust war, impeach a corrupted President, gain civil rights for minorities and so much more. The very culture that surrounds you is affected by music and all other art forms. Hell music has even been used a tool of propaganda and brain-washing which I find hideous in every respect. Don't fool yourself, there's a lot more depth here than you realize.
Thank you, Taceus.
I'm gonna throw Jonfan some support. Just as a solid object may "seed" the precipitation of crystals in a solution, or rain from a cloud, so may music, or any work of art, trigger a political or cultural change. Jag's right that individual effects vary.
I am hoping CoH, or rather the brutal manner of CoH's closing, may trigger something of the sort in the gaming industry. The story is ongoing.
Quote from: Jonfan on January 30, 2013, 12:40:22 AM
I don't want to beat this horse anymore; it's completely off topic. But I will say that, with respect, I think you are one of those people who don't realize just how much music can affect us.
You probably weren't around back then but in my lifetime I've seen music help stop an unjust war, impeach a corrupted President, gain civil rights for minorities and so much more. The very culture that surrounds you is affected by music and all other art forms. Hell music has even been used a tool of propaganda and brain-washing which I find hideous in every respect. Don't fool yourself, there's a lot more depth here than you realize.
ah. I see. I thought you meant on a personal level. You seem to mean humans, as a whole. Cant definilatey speak on what music means to anyone or everybody or human but yes of course as a whole, music have an effect from what I can see. On a personal level, not so much, which is something I can say in a definititly undeniable manner. Unless of course you or someone else know me better than I know myself.
But yeah on a personal level, which I know for a fact, as of course I know myself and how music affected me personally. I can definitely say that it dont effect me much. Nope I wasn't there during those wars, use it to brain wash people, or used it to impeach a president and thus it dont convey nor bring up those types of emotions in me. I haven't used music to calm myself, to protest a war or anything. It's another form of entertainment to me just like a screwdriver is another tool. How it is used in other hands, much stuff can happen. A person can build something or they can take a life, depends on the person and what that screwdriver means to them. But even the screw driver as a whole to humans is very significant.
Hey, maybe Kim is a hoarder.
Quote from: DarkCurrent on January 30, 2013, 01:39:14 AM
Hey, maybe Kim is a hoarder.
Why did that make me laugh so hard? Either way, bravo sir I tip my hat to thee!