Seems more is happening with NCSoft, namely the seattle offices.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/04/ncsoft-undergoing-realignment/
We all remember what happened the last time they "realigned resources" to better suit their needs, yes?
Three months later, another quarter, and another group gets the chop.
Quote from: Megajoule on December 04, 2012, 11:10:49 PM
We all remember what happened the last time they "realigned resources" to better suit their needs, yes?
Which makes you think how many more times they're going to be realigning their resources. Business most be going bad?
QuoteThis was a very tough decision to make
Uh-huh...somehow I doubt that.
Sounds to me like they're preparing to shut down their operations outside Asia.
Quote from: The Fifth Horseman on December 04, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
Sounds to me like they're preparing to shut down their operations outside Asia.
Was thinking something simillar, but it seems a bit drastic to be isolating themselves exclusivly to asia. In the end they would probably just loose money from reducing their customer market.
Looks like they are chomping their own Blueberries. Seriously I feel terrible for their employees firing them during the Christmas season that's just damn low. I heard of companies holding off layoffs before Christmas if they can? This is just makes me sick. I pray every laid off person is able to find a job quickly. If their plans are to go back to being Korean only I just hope some how some of their IPs aside from COH can be rescused as well. (Seriously I hope Arenanet can surive on it's own with the rights to it's game somehow)
Everything I've seen since this all started suggests that they make the vast majority of their money in Asia, from games aimed at/made for Asian players' tastes in art style, gameplay, etc.
Their presence and history in the NA/EU market is relatively minuscule and troubled.
I would not be surprised if there is a sizable segment of NCsoft management that doesn't really want to be involved in the overseas market(s), at all.
Quote from: Megajoule on December 04, 2012, 11:54:20 PM
Everything I've seen since this all started suggests that they make the vast majority of their money in Asia, from games aimed at/made for Asian players' tastes in art style, gameplay, etc.
Their presence and history in the NA/EU market is relatively minuscule and troubled.
I would not be surprised if there is a sizable segment of NCsoft management that doesn't really want to be involved in the overseas market(s), at all.
I think they want to be in the US market without having to deal with any american dev teams.
I expect them to pull out eventually, just remotely servicing the games. It IS possible. Square Enix has been doing that with Final Fantasy XI and XIV for years now (although mind you: they have a LOT more passion for their games than NCSoft does)
Quote from: The Fifth Horseman on December 04, 2012, 11:28:34 PM
Sounds to me like they're preparing to shut down their operations outside Asia.
Which would be right in line with what is mentioned in an employee review of NCSoft here:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-NCsoft-RVW1922137.htm
Specifically this portion:
"NDA: NCSoft is going to be insourcing more so than outsourcing. You can expect the full shutdown of all NCSoft Western-Run/European Run Offices with in the next two years."
Quote from: Chiller Beam on December 04, 2012, 11:34:14 PM
Was thinking something simillar, but it seems a bit drastic to be isolating themselves exclusivly to asia. In the end they would probably just loose money from reducing their customer market.
You're thinking too long term. NCSoft just had a bad year (revenues down sharply) and they want a better one next year.
GW2 has very little recurring revenue. It sells once in a big bang at the start and then money trickles in. Keeping the studio open is a risky investment: it's betting that after X years more development, an expansion will bring in a sales burst that pays for those years of operation.
If company management desires low-risk, steady income over the coming 5 years, closing the studio is obviously a good option. Selling it is a better one if they can find a buyer. The bottom line is that they've already got your money for GW2.
Obviously it's not what ArenaNet wants to do. But I think we all know that NCSoft does not care about that.
Quote from: pyber on December 05, 2012, 12:05:45 AM
Which would be right in line with what is mentioned in an employee review of NCSoft here:
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-NCsoft-RVW1922137.htm
Specifically this portion: "NDA: NCSoft is going to be insourcing more so than outsourcing. You can expect the full shutdown of all NCSoft Western-Run/European Run Offices with in the next two years."
Guess it wasn't completley absurd that they would be closing their international branches, however how credible can this source be? Can't anyone review on that site?
Quote from: cmgangrel on December 05, 2012, 12:11:54 AM
That might not mean the closure of Arena.net/Carbine studios though (to be honest, Carbine Studios would be under more risk of closure than Arenanet to be honest). But I can see NC Interactive and NC Europe being shuttered completely, with all responsibilities for running a game (marketing, customer support, server maintenance) being the development studios complete responsibility instead of NCSoft helping out in a few area (although some people could say that NCsoft were more of a hinderance than anything else for marketing!)
I believe that Samuraiko/Dark Respite asked Arenanet a question along the lines of "could what happened to Paragon Studios happen to you?" To be fair, I cannot remember the answer at the moment, but I hope that she is able to pop in answer it for us....
I do know that she posted it up on the official boards though before they closed down.
True enough, though while perhaps not likely, it is still quite possible considering the way NCSoft management seems to be behaving of late. That review is far from the first time I've run across mention of such closures, or that NCSoft as a whole is planning on focusing their operations primarily on Korea and East Asia in the future. Their current stable of games (besides GW2, sort of) seems to indicate that they're catering more to the Asian gamer, and the closure of CoH just serves to reinforce that in my opinion. Really the only game they have left that really has any appeal to Western and European gamers is GW2, and if they're starting to ditch people at Arenanet, it doesn't bode well for that franchise. And I must admit I feel for them. Some of the guys that started Arenanet were former Blizzard employees that left that company over a difference of vision for the Warcraft franchise, and now its possible, however slim the possibility, that their current overlord may be going with a different vision as well.
Anyways, I honestly won't be surprised if they do shutdown pretty much everything non-Korean. By many accounts, the way they see NCSoft and its games evolving in the future just isn't compatible with what Western and European gamers and developers want, which means its just a matter of time.
Quote from: Chiller Beam on December 05, 2012, 12:15:49 AM
Guess it wasn't completley absurd that they would be closing their international branches, however how credible can this source be? Can't anyone review on that site?
Anyone can yes, though that's far from the only review from a supposed NCSoft employee, most of whom are based in North America. So I'd be inclined to believe it, with a small grain of salt just in case.
I'm going to wonder if they're going to try to turn American gaming communities against each-other. "Those CoH miscreants are making business so bad that we've got to cut you, too. Now, go and stop them before we have to do anything worse!"
And hopefully... they'll say... 'No.'
And then add "You probably need to do something about letting that CoH IP and it's code get sold and used."
If they were, y'know, savvy.
Quote from: Chiller Beam on December 04, 2012, 11:34:14 PM
Was thinking something simillar, but it seems a bit drastic to be isolating themselves exclusivly to asia. In the end they would probably just loose money from reducing their customer market.
They would only lose about 4% of their yearly gross. (About half of that now that City is closed - City was about 40% of their non-Asian market in recent years.)
I would hazard a guess that removing the cost of employee pay and benefits, and dropping marketing in non-Asian areas, would more than make up for that.
Please note I don't think they're going to do that, just that it's not infeasible or even a terrible idea. They are failing out here, and are rockin' socks over there.
Well now that Paragon is gone, you aren't going to need as large of a support staff in Seattle anymore. Couple that with the decreasing playerbase of Aion and L2 in NA and Europe.
I'm wondering if they are running across conversion problems with B&S? Maybe a ratings problem? Label it an M and it limits places that will sell it. Edit it and get a T and it'll be like DieHard 4, just wrong. Plus you will be alienating all the potential customers who are waiting for their virtual locked in closet girl collectors.
Stupid American MMO player.
Edit: Also as someone has pointed out, it looks as if their stock is back on a downward decline after seemingly finding it's support level around 155,000. I wonder if this (http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/12/602_126197.html) article in The Korea Times money section has anything to do with it.
I know someone who used to work for NCsoft Japan, and I met and talked with him about two weeks after the closure notice. Though he now works for another gaming company, he said the Nexon connection had those still at NCsoft Japan worried about their jobs. When I see him again later this month, I wonder how things will have changed...
Feel free to let us know when you find out.
Quote from: Aggelakis on December 05, 2012, 02:14:07 AMPlease note I don't think they're going to do that, just that it's not infeasible or even a terrible idea. They are failing out here, and are rockin' socks over there.
I don't think they're doing so great on home turf. Their customers may still love them, but the investors are losing faith.
Even if they have countless loyal fans in Korea, they won't bring in as much money as investors. If they lose investors, they lose the funds to produce games, content and events. If they have nothing to offer their customers, they will lose them. If investors see they are losing customers, they will continue to sell off their shares and leave as well.
Quote from: Xieveral on December 05, 2012, 10:27:31 PM
I don't think they're doing so great on home turf. Their customers may still love them, but the investors are losing faith.
Even if they have countless loyal fans in Korea, they won't bring in as much money as investors. If they lose investors, they lose the funds to produce games, content and events. If they have nothing to offer their customers, they will lose them. If investors see they are losing customers, they will continue to sell off their shares and leave as well.
Well the stock market in general is just a huge voting machine that shows which companies people have confidence in. Some of their decisions are based on simple fundamentals; sales, earnings, balance sheet and the various values calculated from it such as book value, price to earnings, price to sales, price to book and earnings per share. Some use those ratios as guide to when a stock is over or under value.
Then you toss in market segment analysis, how well they are doing relative to their competitors; overall economic concerns; ancillary news stories (such as The Koren Times piece that came out a day or so ago). Various investment firms then advise their customers if they think a stock is over or undervalued and what they should do if it was them.
In 2009 NCSoft had a huge boost in earnings and sales due to Aion. We are talking sales growth of 83% and earnings growth of 623% (2008 wasn't a great year for earnings). It was during 2009 that their stock first started it's climb.
2010 was a flat year in sales and earnings but they kept talking up industry growth, talking about their future games, hinting they could repeat what happened with Aion.
In 2011 both sales and earnings were down a fair amount and it seems that during 2011 someone woke up and decided that NCSoft was way overvalued and it's stock slide started.
In 2012 it didn't look good when the company's CEO and 25% owner decides to sell off 60% of his stock to a rival company on the grounds that it's part of a cooperative arrangement on new games. Then the 3rd quarter numbers came out at the start of November, the first full quarter of Blade & Soul, and it wasn't a repeat of Aion. It did well enough but their other big three titles lost as much in sales as B&S brought in. If it wasn't for Guild Wars 2, a game not created by NCSoft's Korean studios, the numbers could have been just as bad as the 2nd quarter, where they lost money for the first time in years. Again BOOM, big drop. A lot of stock exchanged hands the first day and NCSoft is still being traded at a higher volume than it's 3-month average.
Now yesterday or the day before was the article about Ms Lackey calling them out over the closure and that may have something to do with perception which may have started another price adjustment downward. Yes it's still about a property that wasn't known well if at all in Korea but news of closing a game that was still bringing in some money doesn't sound too good. As of this point it's down another 2%, around 33% since the Q3 numbers came out and down 61% since it's peak in early October 2011.
Again, stock value isn't really a number that accurately reflects the actual strength or weakness of a company but the perceived strength or weakness.
(yes I know that there's a separate thread about the stock price)
Given how NCsoft has handled its Western properties, I get the feeling their upper management just have no idea how to handle a Western market. If the company's losing money, then I would not be in the slightest surprised to see them retreat from the Western market entirely. Frankly, given the nature of their "Eastern" games, that's probably best for everybody.
Here's the thing though: if they do retract to Asia-only stuff, why would Asians want to game with a company that has closed five(?) MMOs? After all, people in Asia pay subscriptions and spend time leveling up and buying stuff in the market, just like the rest of us do. Of course they have farmers and RMT idiots, but what game doesn't? Most people in Asia probably play just like we do. Why would they want to lose the characters they have spent time and money creating? We didn't like it: why would Asian people like it? Asians are not exactly stupid people, far from it.
It would be really delicious if EVERYONE all around the globe decided, "Hey this company sucks. Look at the crap they are doing! Let's go over to Blizzard, at least they dont close a game every six months."
In other news, I own GW2. Yes, I hang my head in shame. But honestly, that game is so damn boring. Mission: I go to an outdoor dinner party and talk to some guy posing as a friend, and he follows me around trying to take credit for what I do. Its a thrill a minute, let me tell you. SNOOOoooOOOOoooOOOOOOZE-FEST.
Quote from: Illusionss on December 06, 2012, 03:06:24 PM
Here's the thing though: if they do retract to Asia-only stuff, why would Asians want to game with a company that has closed five(?) MMOs? After all, people in Asia pay subscriptions and spend time leveling up and buying stuff in the market, just like the rest of us do.
I wonder if there's a fundamental difference between western and eastern customers? I wonder if they aren't as attached to their characters? Or they just keep remaking them from game to game.
What is the track record for other companies operating in the Eastern MMO space closing MMOs?
Quote from: CG on December 06, 2012, 03:10:39 PM
I wonder if there's a fundamental difference between western and eastern customers? I wonder if they aren't as attached to their characters? Or they just keep remaking them from game to game.
What is the track record for other companies operating in the Eastern MMO space closing MMOs?
There are behavioral differences.
Eastern MMO players in general tend to value PvP, grinding, group play, while Western MMO players tend to value PvE, fast leveling, solo play. Those are just two of the differences. Aion's probably a good example of what happens when you try to launch an Eastern MMO in the West without any gameplay adjustments.
Quote from: Illusionss on December 06, 2012, 03:06:24 PM
Here's the thing though: if they do retract to Asia-only stuff, why would Asians want to game with a company that has closed five(?) MMOs?
Well Auto Assault, Tabla Rosa and CoH were virtually unknown in Korea. Do you care if an American (or whatever country you may be in) company axes some product that isn't sold here? Very likely you aren't even aware of that product to begin with.
Quote from: FatherXmas on December 06, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
Well Auto Assault, Tabla Rosa and CoH were virtually unknown in Korea. Do you care if an American (or whatever country you may be in) company axes some product that isn't sold here? Very likely you aren't even aware of that product to begin with.
I have always felt sympathy for the players of every MMO that I have ever heard of being canceled, even the ones I honestly think "sucked". At the end of the day, there is likely at LEAST a thousand people out there that have been playing the game, enjoying the world and building relationships together.
It can be devastating for any community to have an MMO shut down.
I would not feel the same way I feel about City of Heroes, same way I would cry more for the death of a family member than the death of a stranger. Does not mean I don't feel bad about the family of that dead person. I just feel stronger about my personal loss.
But I am derailing... truth be told, I doubt Koreans have to worry too much. NCSoft seems to really care for their Asian market and the MMOs they host there. They just don't care about the western stuff. Everything here is just a disposable experiment.