Now while I'm of the mind that everyone has a right to their own opinion there is a reason I'm glad I stayed away from the CoH forums recently.
I have watched as this little group of ProNcSoft activists has arisen over there. It irks me that they view NcSoft as this great corporations that can do no wrong. Well, the blind following the blind does not make it true that they are headed in the right direction.
Now, I know some of these people also post here, and I want it known that I am not doing anything here but citing a few things where NcSoft is concerned and a few cautionary comments for the Titan Group as a whole.
1. To date (after CoH closes) NcSoft will have closed 5 MMOs.
2. Tabula Rasa was closed with some shenanigans resulting in Richard Garriot being awarded 28 million dollars. The fact that he got this money means NcSoft poorly handled TR's closure.
3. The fact that NcSoft announced CoH's closure on August 31 is suspect. It was one day prior to three things: Labor Day weekend, first full weekend for all GW2 purchasers (preorders only were the weekend prior), and PAX. By Tuesday the announcement was forgotten. Was this a wise business maneuver, yes. Was it also shadey, yes.
All the arguing back n forth by the pro NcSofters seems to be about why the players are upset. And to the main argument that keeps coming up about us trusting them all this time after all the other closures, we didn't we trusted Paragon Studios because the dev team gave us no reason not to. I don't think any of us will deny we were a might nervous about the parent company this whole time, but as time progressed we came to trust the situation since our devs seemed to be in a secure place. Once our devs were squashed, and the news delivered about the game, we lost faith. This isn't a case of we should have known better, but rather the situation could have been handled better.
Now to the ProNcSoft crowd I would like to say this. It's your opinion. Just like our opinion on the matter does have solid ground, even though it seems to fall on deaf ears over there. Yes, NcSoft made a business decision, no one is denying that. The resolution to said action, though, was poorly handled.
One point made on the CoH forums, I would like to stress, tough. The emulator project. Titan Network needs to distance itself from anyone working on said project. Any connection will bring Plan Z under fire if the emulator is ever brought into legal constraints, and knowing NcSoft's history with them they will seek such avenues to shut it down. NOTE: Many involved in Plan Z have stated over and over they are not involved with the emulator project, but I wanted to post this for the sake of clarity anyway and because said attachments keep getting brought up on the CoH forum posts.
The one thing that really irks me is some stating there shouldn't ever have been a SaveCoH movement. Well, without it some good charities might never have received the exposure they did over the course of the last two months. Scrutiny has been placed on players involved in CoH by this crowd and it upsets me greatly. Why shouldn't people be voicing that there is still a place for a game that has meant so much to them? TonyV has been very vocal about letting cooler heads prevail as have others in the movement. It's as if the whole movement is an affront to their senses and that I do not understand. If you're content to let the game go, fine, let it go. The only reason to really be bad mouthing the movement is because of one word, t r o l l.
I have given up trying to educate the NCSoft apologists on the City boards.
I have explained multiple times Plan Z is NOT an illegal effort but a legal one using basic design ideas with a mixture of original ones but they seek to use FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) to make people think it is just crackpots.
On the official boards it becomes obvious who these people are and they are either NCSoft plats or Industrial Sized Trolls.
Quote from: Ironwolf on October 29, 2012, 05:41:11 PM
I have given up trying to educate the NCSoft apologists on the City boards.
I have explained multiple times Plan Z is NOT an illegal effort but a legal one using basic design ideas with a mixture of original ones but they seek to use FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) to make people think it is just crackpots.
On the official boards it becomes obvious who these people are and they are either NCSoft plats or Industrial Sized unicorns.
They can't be made to understand because they don't want to understand.
Some people just take great pride in their ignorance.
Quote from: Ironwolf on October 29, 2012, 05:41:11 PM
FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)
I have always seen FUD as "fucked-up data". Either one works, I guess. lol
"Crowds" is something of a misnomer.
It's a group of maybe 5-6 people who feel like they need to be absolute douchebags to others people.
In short, the sub-bridge dwellers? Feed them not!
Because if the game is taken down how will you be able to reverse engineer it?
Cloning the servers as a design study for your code is not illegal. To play it or allow people to play it would be.
From what I understood of it - you can have actual past devs work the rough code - however they cannot take it past the Alpha state and it must be finished by separate coders. I agree this may never see the light of day. I won't say never however.
I too stay away from that forum but remember in war both sides always think their side is right and the other side is dead wrong.
We have a place to get what we need to get done.
Let's not go over there feeding them, but I would like to understand where they are coming from. Yet, to get a mutual understanding even with opposite views, it takes two. And if the other party is not willing to listen then there is no point in even talking about it or bringing it up.
I would like to see less NCSoft bashing. No no, I'm not agreeing to them activists over there but what I'm saying is that if we want the spotlight, we must put on a good image. We do not want this media coverage to come back and bite us and be viewed as a bunch of crazy gamers who only purpose is to get revenge. We are heroes remember? Do statesman call LR or even Nemesis every derogatory thing in the book every other sentence? No. He just does what heroes do. Set the standard of how people supposed to act. I know it's harder said than done, but would like to see it kept to a min. plus that way, NCSoft, and the followers have no ammo to use against us. I think the greatest revenge is success and a not a single insult is needed for that. Just show them what they done and show them what we can do. Try to stay positive, but firm, and dignified. Do not stoop to levels that we criticize the other side for. Or else, think, then how does that make us look?
I don't think they have to support anything we do and they can voice their opinion all they want over there. Yet, over here, we are at work and trying to get things done.
As much as I would want the community to be together, sometimes even with family, you have to distance yourself from them.
In short all I'm saying is just leave them alone, let them have their opinion, no matter how twisted it is, and focus here on what we are doing. After Nov. 30th, that forum will no longer exist but this forum here will still be standing.
If we want them to respect our view then we must respect theirs even when they don't respect ours. If we want them to listen to us, then we have to listen to them or else no will listen anyways. We can't control others but we can control ourselves. If they act crazy, let them act crazy. It's trolling, and then reports them or just let them act crazy by themselves. Don't have to respond to every critic. Many are left best ignored.
The way I avoid temptation of getting in the mud with them is to stay out the pig pen.
Remember this is just all my opinion and how I deal with people that have strongly differing views. You won't catch Jag ranting and raving back and forth with someone trolling online because in the end, do it matter what they say or what they think of me? Why am I going to get emotional about some online raving lunatic that have no investment in my life as I have no investment in theirs. Sometimes I think it's better to just let them have the "i win" and walk away with dignity intact because remember, online arguments are like the Special Olympics because even if you win, you are still retarded. If they want to be in the Special Olympics, let them. Unicorns con gray to me, no xp, so they don't get my attention.
Quote from: cmgangrel on October 30, 2012, 01:20:07 AM
*raises hand* I assume that I am one of those people on the CoX boards? I have been fairly vocal (as it were), about certain issues that have been brought up on *both* sides, and generally speaking tried to get some facts either confirmed or straightened out.
I certainly haven't noticed anything here that was an issue. Nothing wrong with fact checking -- too much hyperbole can be damaging to a cause. Yeah, people are a little desperate and there will always be some outliers, but we've been trying to keep the ship as even keel as possible.
As for on the COH boards, no, I don't think so there either (took me a minute to find you cause of the _EU :-\). Certainly none of the ones I'm thinking of, who spam Every. Single. Thread. with the same thing.
Quote from: cmgangrel on October 30, 2012, 01:20:07 AM
Anyways, here is something that TonyV said that might have caused some problems (or at least some misconceptions). And to be fair, I am inclined to believe what he says here, and naturally assume the worst.
(quote)
Ok, that is a snippet, and later on he does indeed say that there is also another group of people who are working on another game (I am assuming Project Z here). So what does this mean that the 1st thing that he is doing? Is it a server emulation project?
So when people say "oh we are not working on a server emulation project", I am a little bit confused here, because TonyV has said that there is work running on reverse engineering the official game servers. Why on earth would you be wanting to do this without planning to run a CoX private server?
TonyV and a couple other people are working on reverse-engineering City. Plan Z does not have anything to do with that. I don't think anyone from either project is working on the other.
Wasn't there a plan to create an independent entity for Plan Z anyway, for business and liability reasons?
I'd search for it, but I've long since given up on trying to keep up with all the forum traffic.
Quote from: Aggelakis on October 31, 2012, 04:27:20 AM
TonyV and a couple other people are working on reverse-engineering City. Plan Z does not have anything to do with that. I don't think anyone from either project is working on the other.
No. We are
NOT reverse engineering. We have a completely different engine. Open source and used with permission. Even the content will have nothing to do with NCSoft. It will only be a superhero MMORPG only shares the
spirit of the previous game, not the content. In fact the project is much larger than just the game.
Quote from: avelworldcreator on October 31, 2012, 05:47:01 AM
No. We are NOT reverse engineering.
Sweetie, that's what I just got done saying.
TonyV and a couple other people are reverse engineering the City servers/engine.
Plan Z does not have anything to do with that.
Wonder if someone can make a clear, very clear, absolutely clear in non-technical computer language, of what exactly is the plan Z thing in a sticky or something? If one exist, carry on then.
Quote from: JaguarX on October 31, 2012, 05:56:13 AM
Wonder if someone can make a clear, very clear, absolutely clear in non-technical computer language, of what exactly is the plan Z thing in a sticky or something? If one exist, carry on then.
I don't think a mission statement or sticky exists with an exact explanation, but I can attempt to give one. Those in charge of the Plan Z project can correct me if I'm wrong.
With the closure of City of Heroes, the members of its community are left without a game they can comfortably call home.
To rectify this, Titan Network is spearheading the creation of a
completely new and independent super hero MMO that recaptures the spirit and community and outlet for creativity that City of Heroes once held for them. The ultimate goal of Plan Z is to create a
spiritual successor to CoH, without infringing upon the trademark or intellectual property rights of NCSoft or any other company.
Plan Z will
not use any resources or code from City of Heroes in any way, shape, or form. It will
not contain any signature characters owned by Paragon Studios or NCsoft, and will
not be set in the same universe as CoH.
You nailed it. 8)
Quote from: cmgangrel on October 31, 2012, 05:25:27 AM
even if it is just a separate website for now, the faster this happens the better it will be.
Not necessarily a bad idea, though tbh the about-to-become-unlicensed content on Paragon Wiki is probably of greater concern to anything plan Z related. That's something large and out there. Rumors of people maybe working on underground projects that may or may not exist and won't ever be positively linked back to them are no more worrisome than any of the other random garbage on the Internet that you have to look forward to. If Plan Z gets big enough to have that momentum, be prepared for people to say ANYTHING and EVERYTHING about it.
Speaking of which, I hear TonyV is into occult rituals and has sacrificed many souls to keep the Falcons in the lead.
TonyV is remaining silent on the issue of soul sacrifice.
Those strange symbols on his door are simply year-round Halloween decorations <whistles innocently>
Quote from: Codewalker on October 31, 2012, 05:11:41 AM
Wasn't there a plan to create an independent entity for Plan Z anyway, for business and liability reasons?
I'd search for it, but I've long since given up on trying to keep up with all the forum traffic.
That's not only the current plan, but is in fact a necessity. You can't expect to have a game ever be produced effectively or taken seriously by the public if there is no actual organization behind it.
Since I took over Scott's role in the project, I've seen very little involvement by TonyV. The sole exception is that Tony is using his experience with wiki code to create a Plan Z wiki which will better organize our information. To my knowledge, none of our coders are contributing in any way to any form of emulation project.
More details about the organizational structure of Plan Z will be forthcoming. We are still ironing out the details of what sort of entity to form and in which legal jurisdiction to do it, etc. Rest assured that we will share information when it exists to be shared.
One final note, there is no timeframe yet established for Plan Z. Keep in mind this is the production of an entirely new MMO. We saved ourselves some time by locating an open source game engine to use, but we still have to create all the code and art assets that will make it a comic book MMO. In short, it is probably going to be quite a bit of time before anything playable comes of it. We will, however, attempt to keep the community in the loop throughout development.
Anyone else involved with Plan Z that may wish to add to or correct these statements is of course welcome to do so. :)
Your statement is correct. Work is underway for the basic business set up. This, of course, is separate from the production side of Plan Z. We have only one person on that business side, and that's Terwyn. And there are two connected product lines in progress. TonyV is head of one by default at the moment, and we are still deciding on the head of the other. For the moment it is Ampithere. I'm one of the consultants on this organization as well as contributor on my own behalf and a representative of the company of which I'm COO.
Quote from: JaguarX on October 31, 2012, 05:56:13 AM
Wonder if someone can make a clear, very clear, absolutely clear in non-technical computer language, of what exactly is the plan Z thing in a sticky or something? If one exist, carry on then.
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5827.0.html
More stuff in that forum as well.
thanks for the info and links.