Titan Network

VV, in a move that makes me think she has the same empathic 'gift' that so many of her Heraldic charecters do, gave me a Mission last night.

It involved trying to get the managment of NC soft to understand us, even if we had to deeply shame them into doing so.

What I found, and what seems to be key here, is the concept of Kibun.  Here is the infodump of last nights research:

:startdump

http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/south-korea-country-profile.html

The Concept of Kibun

. Kibun is a word with no literal English translation; the closest terms are pride, face, mood, feelings, or state of mind.
. If you hurt someone's kibun you hurt their pride, cause them to lose dignity, and lose face. Korean interpersonal relationships operate on the principle of harmony.
. It is important to maintain a peaceful, comfortable atmosphere at all times, even if it means telling a "white lie".
. Kibun enters into every facet of Korean life.
. It is important to know how to judge the state of someone else's kibun, how to avoid hurting it, and how to keep your own kibun at the same time.
. In business, a manager's kibun is damaged if his subordinates do not show proper respect. A subordinate's kibun is damaged if his manager criticizes him in public.
. Nunchi is the ability to determine another person's kibun by using the eye.
. Since this is a culture where social harmony is crucial, being able to judge another person's state of mind is critical to maintain the person's kibun.
. Nunchi is accomplished by watching body language and listening to the tone of voice as well as what is said.

http://www.korea4expats.com/article-nunchi-kibun-values-norms-korea.html

Writing a person's name in red ink is tantamount to saying they are dead or will die soon.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=187344

Kibun
Korean relationships between people is based on Harmony. To maintain this balance is very important to the point where people will give up something or not tell the truth.

Kibun has no direct translation. It relates to a persons mood and feelings. To hurt someones kibun is generally a terrible thing to do, although foriegners do get allowances made for doing it (to a point).

So Korean culture is much about the feelings of others. Trying to keep other peoples kibun intact while maintaining your own is actually quite a job.

To ignore kibun in Korea will generally lead to problems on your side. For example if you were to try and get someone to do something while their kibun is hurt, they are more likley not to help you.

The somewhat annoying thing (for westerners) is that it is very easy to hurt someones kibun by everyday actions. Slagging someone off, being argumentative, giving bad news, or ignoring Korean social rankings.

A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

It is possible as a foriegn person to ignore kibun, but if you don't you will find you get more respect from Koreans.

Nunchi
Translation is eye measure.

To better understand how a persons kibun is, or what a person is feeling is called Nunchi. Koreans are taught not to make their true feelings shown so generally others have to use nunchi to guess how the other is feeling.

It is generally thought of as a sixth sense, but it is more looking at visual clues and understand what a Korean is really saying when they say something.

An example would be, If you are a boss of a Korean and you tell them they are doing a certain thing wrong in their work, they may take this to mean that you are not satisfied with all their work.

Or another. A Korean may say to you "Are you hungry?". They are actually saying "I am hungry, can we eat now?". So if you answer "No" it would hurt their kibun. The correct answer would be to ask the Korean what they want to eat.

http://outsideinkorea.com/culture/on-kibun/
Kibun (기분 — variously romanized, roughly pronounced 'gee-boon') has been translated into English as 'mood' or 'state of mind' or 'feeling', but these are pale concepts compared to the Korean one. In Korea, Kibun is regarded as much more important a matter than most westerners would regard mere mood. In another of those seeming contradictions of Korea, Koreans have a tendency to dwell, involute, on their more delicate feelings, despite their rough-and-ready, earthy exteriors. The degree to which they can focus on their emotional states can seem almost effete to a westerner, particularly one who, like me, grew up in a rough, tough northern town. Kibun is of overarching importance in social relations, is constantly discussed, and attempts are always made to ensure kibun is preserved.

Damage to your kibun is damage to your essence, and can have negative effects both mentally and physically.

It might be described as the part of you that goes beyond your physical presence, that not only permeates your being but surrounds you, invisibly, like a cloud. But it can be damaged, by unhappiness or disrespect, by losing face, by thoughtlessness or humiliation, by anything that's disruptive to the harmony you feel with other people. Damage to your kibun is damage to your essence, and can have negative effects both mentally and physically.

the only way to regain face and salvage personal kibun is to blow up and stomp and yell. This happens a lot, too.

It is this consciousness of an inner life, one that is molded by the degree of harmony one achieves in one's relationships with other people to whom one feels any degree of responsibility, that gives Koreans their almost preternatural ability to sense peoples' mood, and their character, and modify their own behaviour to lubricate the social gears. That's the nice part. The infuriating flip side of that, though, for many foreigners, is the tendency to dance elegantly away from any potential confrontation. An angry waeguk-in, until they understand what's happening, is likely to become angrier when the Korean with whom they have a bone to pick says 'Maybe' when they mean 'No', or 'tomorrow' when they mean 'never', in order to try and re-establish harmonious dealings. The accompanying, ever-present potential too, is that when someone is pushed too far, and they lose face, in which case 'social harmony' can take a flying leap, and the only way to regain face and salvage personal kibun is to blow up and stomp and yell. This happens a lot, too.

In this consciousness of the relationships between people and its effect on your own wellbeing, rather than the 'correctness', 'objective truth', or self-interest of an individual or his arguments, there is a minefield of potential misunderstanding. Most foreigners to Korea trip through it over and over again, myself included, before they realize that putting the kibun of the people around you first, even in a situation of confrontation, will bring results.

(As an aside, this is what the Americans do not seem to understand, or care to, when they deal with North Korea. The patterns of seemingly-irrational behaviour on the part of the DPRK negotiators isn't (always) irrational at all, from their own perspective.)

The importance of kibun for Korean people should never be underestimated. It's not merely convention, it's baked-in. Koreans can make crucial, important decisions based on kibun. Business decisions, choice of a mate, career and employment choices, all may be taken on the basis of what feels right, or what will result in the most socially harmonious outcome for all concerned. Koreans will discuss kibun, but rarely attempt to analyze it in this way. To do so would perhaps damage their kibun.

This is not to say that decisions, important or otherwise, are made strictly on a non-rational, intuitive basis. Things like love and marriage, about which westerners can be decidedly irrational, are approached with a combination of cold, rational analysis and intuitive leaps here, for example. It is another of the contradictions that make up so much of what it means to be Korean.

In future, look for more on this from me. Kibun is only one of the six controlling concepts of the Korean psyche : chemyeon, neunchi, kibun, bunuiki, jeong and han, and the interplay between these guiding forces is what makes Koreans so unique, and, at times, so difficult for the non-Korean to understand.

[originally published January 2002, revised and updated 2006]

http://www.korea4expats.com/article-nunchi-kibun-values-norms-korea.html

Even though they are evolving (as is the case with many other norms and values in today's Korea), the  following cultural values/norms are fundamental to Korean culture.

Harmony in personal relationships is a dominant force in a Korean's life. Facts, logic and conclusions are often not nearly as important as how one is looked upon by others. Friendships are tight-knit and valuable. It is an insult to refuse a friend's request. It is even less forgivable to fail a superior. These friendships are possible because everyone does his or her best to preserve and foster harmony and good feelings. The bearer of bad news may smile to soften the blow. S/he may avoid giving the news, even if s/he is merely the messenger and in no way responsible for it.

It is very hard for Koreans to admit failure and it is devastating to lose face in Korean culture. The directness of Westerners is thoroughly unpalatable to many Koreans (especially older and/or more traditional people), whose self-esteem is often on the line. In Korea, it is of unparalleled importance to maintain kibun or the mood or feeling of being in a comfortable state of mind.

Kibun – The word kibun has no literal translation in English. However, as a concept that permeates every facet of Korean life, it can be described in terms of pride, face, mood, or state of mind. In order to maintain a Korean's sense of Kibun, particularly in a business context, one must show the proper respect and avoid causing loss of face. In a culture where social harmony is essential, the ability to identify another's state of mind, often referred to as nunchi, is crucial to successful business ventures. For this reason, you must be aware of subtleties in communication, observing non-verbal and indirect cues that often suggest the true sense of what is being communicated. 

In Korea, breakage of machinery, a production line error or bad news from the head office may not be as important as the reporting of the news, which will cause loss of face for the teller and damaged kibun for the hearer. Bad news is rarely related in the first hour of the business day. If a bad report is inescapable, the evening is a better time to deliver it, when there is at least a night in which to restore kibun.

Consider the question of public reputation. The great importance placed on kibun can mean that it is more important to exhibit the external signals of politeness than other moral values, such as speaking the truth. A Westerner who knows that he is being lied to is apt to feel greatly offended by the  'perceived' rudeness of a Korean (or anyone else) who places kibun above honesty. That is, s/he feels that s/he is being treated as a fool. Meanwhile the Korean may feel that s/he is graciously lying to preserve the kibun of the 'foreigner'.   

More examples:
1. If you are a teacher, you may have students who treat you with great politeness, bowing to you when or leaving entering you class or even when meeting you on the street. However, these same students may answer their cell phone in your class, arrive late and unprepared or even with clearly plagiarised work, which are all signs of disrespect. to many non-Korean professors.
2. Your employer is more likely to fire you on Friday and tell you that you need not come back. In this way, you have saved faced by not having to return and face your failure. That the firing comes out of the blue, may be an indication that you did not pick up on subtle, non-verbal clues (nunchi).

Nunchi refers to a concept in Korean culture that involves listening and gauging the other person's mood – often without the help of clear (to foreign nationals) signals.  It is of central importance to the dynamics of interpersonal relationships. The literal translation of nunch is "eye-measure". With nunchi, Koreans are usuing non-verbal cues to convey emotion and meaning through various means, including voice pitch and volume as well as intonation. Nunchi  also relies heavily on an understanding of one's status relative to the person with whom one is interacting. Because Korea, as with other high-context cultures caters toward in-groups that have similar experiences and expectations and from which inferences are drawn, many things are left unsaid here. The culture does the explaining, in effect.   

Both Kibun and Nunchi are very difficult concepts for non-Koreans to get the hang of and we will generally be forgiven for our ignorance of these concepts and consequent rude behaviour, especailly if we are high on the status ladder. However, one gains more than one loses by trying to understand and, as much as possible, behaving according to these rules of behaviour. 

Inhwa – Drawing from Confucian beliefs, the term inhwa signifies the Korean approach to harmony. As a collectivist society, consensus is an important element in promoting and maintaining harmony in Korea. To avoid disturbing inhwa, Koreans will often reply with a positive answer and show reluctance to give direct refusals. In Korean business culture, this manifests itself in an innate sense of loyalty, employee obedience and courteous and formal behaviour.

Confucianism - Confucianism continues to pervade the consciousness of many Koreans, shaping the Korean moral system, its national laws, and general way of life in Korea, including its business culture. The Korean values of obligation towards others, respect for family, elders and authority, loyalty, honour, and filial piety are all part of its Confucian. Although it is not seen as a religion in this increasingly Christian society, and although it is no longer part of the 'public' school curriculum, Confucianism still plays an important role in Korean society. Confucian ideas and ideals such as chung / loyalty; hyo / ofilial piety; in / benevolence, and sin / trust are still part of the cultural fabric and strong elements of Confucianist thought still exist in day-to-day administrative and organisational hierarchies.

Personal Relationships - In Korea, personal relations frequently take precedence over business. In order to be successful, it is vital to establish good, personal relationships based on mutual trust and benefit. Korean business culture is firmly grounded in respectful rapport and in order to establish this, it is essential that you have the right introduction and approach the company, often through a mutual friend or acquaintance at the appropriate level. Koreans spend a significant amount of time developing and fostering personal contacts. Therefore, time should be allocated for this process, particularly during the first meeting, which is frequently used to simply establish rapport and build trust. Once good, solid relations have been recognised in Korea, continuous reinforcement and maintenance is vital. One of the modern ways of developing mutual trust and cementing a personnel relationship is the practice of getting closer through alcohol. However, there is growing recognition in Korean society that getting drunk for business reasons may not really be good for business and younger, health conscious workers are opting for alternative ways of bonding when they can. A traditional practice of 'gift-giving' is also being addressed in many sectors as anti-corruptions practices and policies are increasingly being implemented.

Over and above, culturally specific concepts such as kibun and nunchi, following are a few other non-verbal indicators you may want to keep in mind:
How you dress - This sends a message, so it is important that the clothes you wear reflect your status and also that of the person with whom you are doing business. If you are a man, you should wear a tie and a suit jacket when outside the office.
When a Korean smiles - Smiling can be an expression of happiness, but it can also express shame or embarrassment. If your assistant has made a serious mistake, s/he may smile or even laugh. Don't get upset by this reaction. It's not because s/he find the situation amusing, on the contrary. Let the context help you interpret the smile and/or laugh.
Koreans often speak very loudly - This frequently occurs when talking on the telephone. Should you be having a business conversation over the phone with someone who sounds as though s/he is shouting, don't take it to be an expression of anger or frustration on the caller's part.
Telephone conversations sometimes end - In what might appear to a Westerner as an abrupt manner, Koreans (those not used to communicating with 'foreigners') often hang up when they have finished saying what they wanted to say. The practice of saying "goodbye" does not always apply in Korea.

Gender Note: The Korean business world is still, in the beginning of the 21st century, male-centered and male-dominated. However, women are beginning to gain some inroads, but the glass ceiling here is very low still. This reality does present some special challenges to foreign women who come here to work.

:enddump

Of importance here is this bit, which actually makes their actions on 31 Aug make sense:

A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

How to turn this to our advantage...  I'm not sure, but I figure that there might be minds more cuturally attuned than mine that can use this info even if I am drawing a blank at the moment.

Thank you very much for this. It is extremely enlightening, and I think I can start trying to subtly alter my suggestions to use it. I am not sure I am going to be great at it; "nunchi" is something I have trouble with in an American context, let alone with people deliberately trying to put forth a more amenable face than they really feel.

That said, I'm curious about the "throw a tantrum" method of regaining kibun. Is it thus not shameful to do so? It would seem the ultimate violation of it, harming that of all around you as well as displaying you've failed to maintain your own, but it supposedly restores it. Do you have any further information about this?

It could be that they're desperately trying to figure out how to either prevent or mollify our display of what they see as precisely this sort of kibun-restoring tantrum. If we can help them find a way to do so while maintaining their own kibun and make turning the IP over serve that purpose...

Quote from: StarRanger4 on October 03, 2012, 02:41:54 PMBoth Kibun and Nunchi are very difficult concepts for non-Koreans to get the hang of and we will generally be forgiven for our ignorance of these concepts and consequent rude behaviour, especailly if we are high on the status ladder. However, one gains more than one loses by trying to understand and, as much as possible, behaving according to these rules of behaviour. 

This forms the core of what contemporary Western education refers to as "cultural comptence in communication": when talking to someone from a very different background, consciously adjust your style, tone, and word choice. Be willing to apologize if you make a social misstep in your ignorance. A few such mistakes may be made, but you should come out ahead overall--who doesn't appreciate someone genuinely trying to make them more comfortable?

QuoteA very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

This, too, struck me. NCsoft may have been trying to save face for Paragon Studios--which would be a very gracious move, even if such steps are not often required and are, indeed, occasionally harmful in American business.

As for how to turn this to our advantage... It would behoove us, especially in direct communications, to remember that we are dealing with learned businesspeople. They will--and should--expect us to be comptent in those communications, to present ourselves well. If we are willing to give opportunites to keep kibun, they will likely do the same for us. In this fashion, a stronger bond might be forged.

Quote from: Segev on October 03, 2012, 03:01:35 PM
That said, I'm curious about the "throw a tantrum" method of regaining kibun. Is it thus not shameful to do so? It would seem the ultimate violation of it, harming that of all around you as well as displaying you've failed to maintain your own, but it supposedly restores it. Do you have any further information about this?

I have never seen our efforts as a "tantrum." NCsoft's leaders owe us no kibun. Indeed, they've helped us many, many times before. But such a display could be a face-saving measure if one can continue to select their words carefully while obviously deeply distressed.

We need to make it clear to them that we speak out because we love what they have had a hand in creating. In fact, the more people that know this, the better off both parties will be.

I think they may see this as the sort of kibun-saving tantrum, if not consciously, than on an unconscious cultural level. Just as we unconsciously see the "exhausted all options" line as being a gross insult, even now consciously knowing what may have motivated it was a desire to preserve feelings. I'm not saying it IS a tantrum; I'm trying to look at what they might be thinking.


I have always advocated being professional; this helps refine what "professional" means in this case. Yes, we absolutely can go with them-as-allies if we can frame this as our kibun being enhanced by a product they made, even if they no longer can directly participate. The most difficult part, for me, would be the "white lies," but I think careful genteelity in phrasing the truth might serve similar purposes.

The first step will be to attempt to reformat our collective reaction to their most recent message. We need to absolutely not take its face value as finality, but at the same time, we must dance with it; accept the graciousness it attempts, from their perspective, to offer, and twirl it into an extended offer to devote more energy and work harder with them to find a resolution. They have risked losing kibun in admitting the shame of failure to find a solution after "exhausting all options." Instead of rubbing their faces in the fib, we instead accept the "exhausted" adjective as the explanation and say, "we know you can do better; we have faith in you. Let us offer our energy to elevate both our Kibun!"

What great research!
My response pretty closely resembles Segev's.

It makes me wonder if Paragon Studios' management was supposed to know they weren't doing well enough, but didn't because they didn't pick up on the right clues.  I would think "surely they would be more clear in business communications about business goals," but this wouldn't be the first thing about this situation that didn't make sense to me from a Western perspective. Then they were even nice enough to give the studios a 3-day weekend to regain kibun. . . which failed, of course.

There's not a lot in there about kibun specifically in the business-customer relationship. A customer's expression of dissatisfaction may be treated differently from a social peer's or an underling's or a superior's. I can only imagine that trying to handle the kibun of a group of thousands and thousands of customers all with slightly different reactions must be overwhelming.  In the West, we can write it off by saying "You can't please all of the people all of the time." I wonder what they have as a parallel.

Great job, StarRanger4!

There is much to ponder in this thread...please return to the table nsoft.  It is your departure from the effort that shames us all.  To redeem face is to find a solution for we do not accept the name of our world written in red ink.  We must wash that hated color away...that is how we can all restore ourselves to harmony

I can't right now for a few time constraint reasons, but later on I will try to reformulate my message in the first Kibun-mentioning thread and try to write a proper formal letter from the community. I have a means of gaining semi-direct access to business people, but it has been only marginally successful so far. I think this may be a good avenue to pursue, nonetheless. The goal will be to show that we are actively attempting to help them preserve kibun but that we are NOT giving up, to invite them to take part in activities which might increase their Face (a part of kibun) along side us, and invite them to come back to the negotiating table so we can explore more innovative solutions to whatever problems got in the way this last round.

Red enough?

Nice research.  I think a helpful phrase you might want to look up in addition is 체면 (pronounced cheh myun), as it is the Korean concept for face or more pertinently saving face.  I'm impressed by the depth of the explanations you found for 기분 (kibun) and 눈치 (nunchi), though to be honest it really depends on what level of society you are dealing with as to how deep those concepts stay true.  The younger generations are every so slowly becoming more western, and the older ones are digging in all the harder.  Though with business its probably a safe bet to assume the older/more traditionally focused people are running the show.

Seriously though, the saving face bit is probably a good avenue to go down if you've got the time.  I really haven't had any lately, so my contributions here have been virtually nonexistent.

Thanks for kicking ass in the research StarRanger.

-Opti   

Quote from: voodoogirl on October 03, 2012, 04:04:06 PMRed enough?

I'm...not so sure this is a productive way to express our sentiments... ^.^

Well, there is a serious question here. Do we (1) try to help NCSoft repair their kibun , or do we threaten to utterly destroy their kibun? Doing the latter could cause a major paradigm shift, or it could backfire badly.

Quote from: StarRanger4 on October 03, 2012, 02:41:54 PM
A very good example is that if person is to be let go, they will generally be told on the Friday evening and told not to return to work to finish up, because the persons kibun would already be hurt there would be no reason to make it worse having them work (this is good nunchi).

I suppose this may explain the abruptness of the termination of the game. I would have thought that given this social concept of theirs and the fact that they are an international corporation, that they would realize that what they view as respectful in Korea may be viewed as an affront by other cultures and they should have taken our (Paragon Studios and the players) concepts of what is socially appropriate in consideration. If they didn't this is telling of them. What it says about them is up to speculation. The only guesses I have are:

they didn't pay close enough attention to our cultural morays,

they are only concerned about how they appear to their own countrymen in how they deal with us

Or they are wholy unconcerned with us

Just to be clear I'm sure there are more possibilities than the ones I pointed out above.

However there is the nature of the corporate world to take in consideration as well. While I'm sure local customs are adhered to the nature of how the corporate ladder is structured makes it far far easier for an uncaring sociopath to succeed rather someone who is more compassionate. I could go into more detail about this assertion but I'm assuming most people will know of what I am referring to. If not I can give a more detailed explanation if I need to.

I would think that it would be far more likely that we are dealing with uncaring corporate heads that only give "lip service" to their local customs such as Kibun, as corporations do here in the US and we should give this reality of the corporate world similar consideration as well.

Since we are all geeks and nerds here I'll use a D&D term most of us here are familiar with. Corporate executives are frequently Lawful Evil.

I strongly disagree with the characterization that Corporate Executives are "frequently" evil of any stripe. Power does attract corrputable and corrupt people, but many executives - I would venture even the majority - are just men and women trying to do their best for themselves, their families, and their companies. Hanlon's Razor is in full effect, most of the time.

I would further venture that, especially in line with the kibun concept, characterizing them as evil is wholly and utterly counterproductive. We are not at war in a literal, guns-blazing sense, and since that won't happen in this context, we should not dehumanize anybody involved. And characterizations as blanket and black as "evil" have dehumanizing effects.

This is an amazingly huge amount of cultural information. Thank you, first of all, for digging it up.

This is far too much information for me to digest at this point, but I'll be picking it apart in the coming days. Time to Know Thy Enemy...

Quote from: chaparralshrub on October 03, 2012, 04:51:55 PMWell, there is a serious question here. Do we (1) try to help NCSoft repair their kibun , or do we threaten to utterly destroy their kibun? Doing the latter could cause a major paradigm shift, or it could backfire badly.

Positivity may accomplish a lot more.

Quote from: Segev on October 03, 2012, 05:35:02 PM
I strongly disagree with the characterization that Corporate Executives are "frequently" evil of any stripe. Power does attract corrputable and corrupt people, but many executives - I would venture even the majority - are just men and women trying to do their best for themselves, their families, and their companies. Hanlon's Razor is in full effect, most of the time.

Yes I am aware that many of them are just doing what is best for them and their families and are not inherently evil. However cognitive dissonance can allow for all sorts of evil or just thoughtless actions by using just following orders or doing what is best for the company as as either conformation bias or adaptive preference formation by moral people who would normally not do something comparable in their personal lives. People who work for insurance companies that search for reasons to deny people claims to save the company money even though the policy clearly states that they should be covered, even if a person may die without financial help is a good example of what I am referring to.

Quote from: Segev on October 03, 2012, 05:35:02 PM
I would further venture that, especially in line with the kibun concept, characterizing them as evil is wholly and utterly counterproductive. We are not at war in a literal, guns-blazing sense, and since that won't happen in this context, we should not dehumanize anybody involved. And characterizations as blanket and black as "evil" have dehumanizing effects.

I made no such blanket assertion nor did I "dehumanize" anyone. I just said this should be directly considered as well.

I'd also like to point out that these general assertions were NOT directed at the "Korean corporate world" but the corporate world in general. Which is not restricted by national boundaries.

Quote from: unladenswallow on October 03, 2012, 04:52:20 PMthey didn't pay close enough attention to our cultural morays,

they are only concerned about how they appear to their own countrymen in how they deal with us

Or they are wholy unconcerned with us

Just to be clear I'm sure there are more possibilities than the ones I pointed out above.

NCsoft's apparent decision to refocus on Korean and Chinese products, their dismissal of Paragon Studios on a Friday afternoon, and their perceived silence after the fact could all be construed as cultural blindness that approaches insular malignance by some. I am not one of those people, but I can see how the conclusion could be drawn.

Well, they do care about what we're doing, because otherwise they wouldn't be making these announcements to us. They may only care because we can potentially destroy their future profit margin, but they do care about that.

So we should keep doing what we are doing, I'd say. If we do wind up causing their western market to fall through, it might force a change in management. And if not, then at least we have some small part of our revenge.

Quote from: Vulpy on October 03, 2012, 07:47:07 PM
NCsoft's apparent decision to refocus on Korean and Chinese products, their dismissal of Paragon Studios on a Friday afternoon, and their perceived silence after the fact could all be construed as cultural blindness that approaches insular malignance by some. I am not one of those people, but I can see how the conclusion could be drawn.

Actually a few of those things can be construed as very Kibun things to do.  The Friday closure, the silence after the fact, even their announcement from yesterday, when viewed through the light of Kibun are indicators that they are strongly following their own cultural mores here.  Knowing that, gives us the ability to craft our messages to better appeal to that portion of their sensibilities.  It's something that I think may ultimately have a stronger impact on them then any financial argument.

I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision.  But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.

I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.

Quote from: Olantern on October 03, 2012, 08:11:35 PM
I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision.  But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.

I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.

It's human nature. Here, Cracked did a very well put together article on the subject. You can find it here: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-humanity-desperately-wants-monsters-to-be-real/

Nice work SR4. I wish I'd had something like this when I dealt with a group of Korean scientists and engineers a few years back.

One issue I ran into then is that Kibun seemed to make them inflexible on cultural matters. Kibun apparently doesn't make much allowance for accommodating the cultural norms of others. The concept of Kibun is simply too deeply ingrained. So you either play by the Korean rules or you are apt to lose Kibun in their eyes or cause them to lose Kibun in their own. And in the former case - as you're info suggests, but which I didn't realize at the time - they consider it polite to avoid those they believe have lost Kibun. Given that most of the Americans (including me) failed to "properly" introduce ourselves, we ended up with one side of the talks actively avoiding the other.

I admit - my rage at NCSoft is somewhat tempered by this knowledge. I begin to see that some of their actions make more sense in light of these concepts.

But my rage is still there.

There is a word for what ails NCSoft. That word is provincialism.

QuoteI have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision.  But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.

I would say the cultural issues are HUGE. The hand of the Korean Management has been extremely heavy and heavy-handed.

For an example of what I'm talking about, read the reports and reviews on NCSoft from The Glass Door site:

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/NCsoft-Reviews-E23242.htm (http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/NCsoft-Reviews-E23242.htm)

QuoteAdvice to Senior Management – Stop creating a hostile environment for those that want to bring positive change. Hire better management that are from the game industry. Stop wasting good talent and listen to what people have to say. Take heed of the reviews posted on here.

QuoteAdvice to Senior Management – To leadership in Korea:

Get your hands out of the darn cookie jar and EMPOWER your employees. You've guaranteed the failure North America and Europe operations because of your bureaucratic, and unnecessary approach to a global business. What works in Korea, doesn't mean it will in other territories. Look at Riot Games for god sake. They empower their Korean HQ to make their own decisions, and they are frequently different than the ones made in America. While they flourish in multiple territories, you're only truly successful in Korea, and even there, you haven't lived up to your potential in years.

QuoteAdvice to Senior Management – Stop trying to constantly change or micromanage. If you want to do it the HQ way then bring over HQ management. Bringing in washout from other electronic studios makes it much worse.

QuoteAdvice to Senior Management – If you only listen to the people who tell you what you want to hear you shouldn't be shocked with the general lack of performance and ever increasing turnover.

QuoteAdvice to Senior Management – Stop think that you are fooling people by holding back information. Everyone knew the layoffs were coming. Everyone knew about the leadership transitions. Have more all-hands meetings like the old days, including P&L.

Obviously these statements are from people who don't understand the Korean thought process and culture. And why should they? They were working here in North America. Not Korea.

The consistency of the complaints and the types of grievances show a pattern.

Obviously we're going to have to turn that pattern to our advantage somehow. I don't know how. And my seething rage at NCSoft is going to prevent me from being much help at this point.

But this knowledge will make me hold off on certain facebook postings on NCsoft's Facebook page until I can be shown a way of wording them that will be more effective in showing that they have VERY MUCH destroyed our "kibun".

Quote from: Olantern on October 03, 2012, 08:11:35 PM
I have no idea how much cultural issues played into the decision to cut off CoH because I have no idea how large a hand Korean management took in the decision.  But it certainly can't hurt to know these things.

I do find it troubling that we already have characterizations of people as "evil" in a thread about the nature of harmony, though.

Whether or not these "business people" are evil, business mentality drives humans to do evil things. Business decisions by their very nature are meant to be heartless. Anyone making such decisions, is able to just ignore the human aspect and tell themselves that they are actually thinking morally.

Modern capitalism, has told us that our main goal in life is to hoard money and material possessions; the polar opposite of everything philosophy has been saying for thousands of years. To use the word "evil" when discussing such matters, really isn't far off. The individuals themselves may not be evil, but you could easily use the metaphor that they have been 'possessed by the devil', and if that 'devil' did not exist, the world might be radically different.

Even the catchphrase that everyone uses to dismiss these evil acts, "It's just business", screams how hard people have worked in order to give 'business' carte blanche. Just imagine if every time America slaughtered a bunch of civilians overseas, the President was able to call a press conference and say, "It's just war." Just think about that for a moment. Business likes to tell itself that it is somehow better than war. Yet both of them destroy lives. Business kills, maims, causes poverty, homelessness, starvation, etc. All of these things are also negative aspects of war. Business isn't, and in many cases, decisions that result in such destruction, is even called GOOD business.

The pen is mightier than the sword? Perhaps. But only for one reason, that it has the world fooled into thinking that it isn't doing the same job. At least the sword is honest.

Evil indeed.

From what I can tell, even NCsoft West doesn't quite understand NCsoft Korea and vice versa. This is part of what's making it hard for us. We're trying to behave as westerners, which the smaller subsidiary may get, but the folks who do call the shots in Korea don't get it at all. And if we try to act in an eastern way, NCsoft west won't get it.

I am trying to understand them, the practical, analytical, business side of me kinda does...or at least is starting to, but it needs a lot more data.  And yet apparently like the Koreans I am a being of emotion, very strong emotions...things like betrayal, crushing hope, and lies set me boiling.  I have a very, very long temper and a great dea of self control for the most part...forgiveness is possible, if Ncsofts abhorent behavior toward us and other communities really is caused by a misunderstanding rather then malise and dehumanization...then I want mutual understanding and education..we can all regain face by *learning* together.

I can forgive but not forget... is it remotely possible that they have so little insight into the western world that *forging* a letter was supposed to help save the Kibun of Tabula Rasa's creater an community....the implication is staggering and very sad.

We are trying to understand you, NcSoft...and help you recover face but I can not do that while you have effectively launched every game, every community with letters writeen in RED and striken all Kibun from our very existance.  You have deemed all your propertes and all those who care about them as inherantly lacking in all value...and in so do *you* have lost face without even realizing it. In repeatedly slaughter the Kibun of the western gaming community you have also lost all Kibun for yourselves.  Harmony comes from compromise, open minds, and open hearts.  Understand that much and we can begin to heal this pain on all sides.

Join us, wash the red away from both of us for we are all stained with it...we have all lost face...together this can be repaired through REAL negotiation.

Sit down at the table in earnest that is what we ask

Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.

Quote from: Valjean on October 03, 2012, 11:23:01 PM
From what I can tell, even NCsoft West doesn't quite understand NCsoft Korea and vice versa. This is part of what's making it hard for us. We're trying to behave as westerners, which the smaller subsidiary may get, but the folks who do call the shots in Korea don't get it at all. And if we try to act in an eastern way, NCsoft west won't get it.

Perhaps that's something we can work on? Give NCWest our observations and then ask them nicely if maybe we could all get back to the negotiating table with this understanding that there was a mis-characterization or cultural misunderstanding?

It seems with kibun being so central to the culture, to miss that one angle is to have no hope of understanding the rest.

Who knows? Maybe we could raise the morale of NCWest a bit by helping them understand their bosses better?

And wouldn't THAT be a feather in our cap? :)

Quote from: Segev on October 03, 2012, 11:55:42 PM
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.

Thanks for that reply Segev.

Quote from: Segev on October 03, 2012, 11:55:42 PM
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.

If it's inappropriate, then whatever. I clearly have no point.

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on October 03, 2012, 11:06:04 PM
Business likes to tell itself that it is somehow better than war. Yet both of them destroy lives. Business kills, maims, causes poverty, homelessness, starvation, etc. All of these things are also negative aspects of war. Business isn't, and in many cases, decisions that result in such destruction, is even called GOOD business.

Sad part is is when anyone brings up doing something about that, the view is immediately viewed as "socialist", anti-buisness, wanting to destroy the economy, and used to be labeled "communist" for those old enough to remember those times.

Oh - should mention in regards to my above post and elsewhere - I still think we should be making NOISE and warning other gamers off NCSoft products for now.

But we can also "kill them with kindness" at the same time.

Play good cop, bad cop.

Or moral "rope-a-dope" as it were.

Quote from: JaguarX on October 04, 2012, 12:17:57 AM
Sad part is is when anyone brings up doing something about that, the view is immediately viewed as "socialist", anti-buisness, wanting to destroy the economy, and used to be labeled "communist" for those old enough to remember those times.

Which is probably why it shouldn't be discussed further.

But no, I'm not anti-capitalist. Only the current popular version of it, if that makes sense.

If more businessmen/women had a moral conscience in their work that extended beyond concern for the size of their wallets, nobody would feel the need to complain. That moral conscience has slowly been getting phased out of existence. So while it's true that often customers are getting dehumanized, the folks with the power are doing the same thing to themselves. It's a very sad and vicious circle, and there's a good chance that it's the reason NC is "unable to find a solution." Too much greed for even the chance of a compromise.

On the topic of Kibun, am I right in interpreting it as being similar to good/bad Karma? It all seems to boil down to telling NC, in Western terminology, "What you are doing is immoral/honorless." Are we sure that Kibun factors into the business world over there? It could be just as irrelevant when it comes to business, as social morality is on this side of the pond.

A stockbroker once told me "Greed is not a word in the world of buisness."


But you make sense.

It all depends on which morality I would assume. Buisness people usualy dont view themselves as immoral, or in fact most people dont regardless of their action. Most feel they are following the moral code of their environment. It might be a mixture of both. Just like some buisness will contribute to various charities and sponsor things then  turn around and fire people to cover the money they just gave out and consider that morally just.

Quote from: Segev on October 03, 2012, 11:55:42 PM
Tim, I think that is not a useful line of thought for this thread or even this sub-forum. It is taking a significant amount of willpower for me not to actively start arguing the morals of capitalism vs. other socio-economic systems with you. If you want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me, but please do not continue this sort of discussion in this thread. It just is the wrong place.

Thanks.

It was my post that brought this subject up and I am sorry that it has evoked such a strong response from you. It was not my intent to make this a point of contention but to address an international aspect of the issue that this thread addressed and how it relates to how we address NC Soft. I have strong opinions about similar issues as you apparently do but I unlike you have absolutely no urge to start arguing the morals of any socioeconomic models or systems with any one in this thread. Except of course Anarcho-syndicalism with Tim the Enchanter since he obviously represents the "violence inherent in the system" with his threatening explosive gestures.

I want to comment more but I am currently pressed for time. I will expand on this if needed or requested later.

I leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on October 04, 2012, 12:29:08 AMOn the topic of Kibun, am I right in interpreting it as being similar to good/bad Karma? It all seems to boil down to telling NC, in Western terminology, "What you are doing is immoral/honorless." Are we sure that Kibun factors into the business world over there? It could be just as irrelevant when it comes to business, as social morality is on this side of the pond.

Hmm... No... I don't read it as good/bad karma myself. It's more like... A very codified and rigid code of consideration for others face/feelings.

Or to put it another way - a very powerfully Asian version of "don't rock the social boat".

I think good/bad karma could be -part- of it.

Honor as well.

But as the OP article said, it's a concept that doesn't really have a direct translation. It means many things all at once.

I had two kibuns for breakfast, and a bowl of nunchi for lunch!

Quote from: Fansy on October 04, 2012, 01:47:19 AM
I had two kibuns for breakfast, and a bowl of nunchi for lunch!

It is SO hard to fin a good nunchi place in the Midwest!

My brain got lost on the wall of text, but this came to mind:
"That was a waste of a perfectly good explaination."

Code for:
"Shut up and tell us what to do!"
:-p

Quote from: WanderingAries on October 04, 2012, 01:56:51 AM
My brain got lost on the wall of text, but this came to mind:
"That was a waste of a perfectly good explaination."

Code for:
"Shut up and tell us what to do!"
:-p

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I suggest looking at my posts in response to this thread early on. I have not outlined a SPECIFIC course of action, but I did try to interpret the information into a general idea of how to frame our actions. It might give you some ideas. (I hope!)

Following StarRanger's lead, I found some more interesting info (on some of the same sites).

Here's one about Kibun and giving gifts in business settings:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-gifts-in-business.html
Interpreting our sending masks and capes, our buying the devs dinner, etc, and then their note of thanks in response through this lens may be useful.

And here about business contracts:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-business-practices-etiquette.html

QuoteContracts are seen as a starting point rather than as the final goals of a business agreement and as the parameter within which the working relationship will be conducted. Koreans prefer that contracts be flexible so that adjustments can be made as the project/work evolves. Even those who are aware of the legal implications regarding the signing of contract, often still view it as less important than the interpersonal relationship between the two companies and find it difficult to understand why, despite the excellent relationship you've been having, you are not willing to overlook or change elements of the contract as you go along. It is important that you be aware of how your Korean colleague/partner views the documents in order to avoid misunderstandings while ensuring that he/she is equally aware of your position.

and decision making:

QuoteThe decision- making process in Korea is done collectively and up through the hierarchy and therefore does take more time than you may be used to. Try to be patient, and even if you're not feeling patient, try not to show it.
Avoid criticizing someone in public, even if you have seen a Korean colleague do so. Criticism, especially of colleagues or Korean subordinates, should be conducted in private so as to reduce or prevent loss of face.
You may also want to avoid opposing someone in public as this, too, can mean a loss of face. Try thinking of alternative ways of going about expressing your opinion or concerns.

And about doing business with people you don't know:
http://www.ehow.com/about_6373036_south-korea-business-etiquette.html

QuoteSouth Koreans typically prefer to only do business with people they have a relationship with. According to Kwintessential, it is crucial to have a third-party introduction if you have never met or worked with a potential South Korean businessperson. This third-party person is typically called upon when a sensitive matter needs to be discussed.

Which may explain why those offers to buy the game from out of the blue don't get responded to.

Some of this stuff I only saw the one time. It's hard to know how up-to-date it is or how much it would apply to our Korean NCSoft friends here in America who are more used to us. But it seemed relevant, if correct.

Very enlightening read on the OP, sir. (Though I admit that I originally thought "kibun [気分] is a Japanese word! How does this--" You think that all the Gangnam Style I've been watching would let me know better.)

Quote from: unladenswallow on October 04, 2012, 12:50:35 AMExcept of course Anarcho-syndicalism with Tim the Enchanter since he obviously represents the "violence inherent in the system" with his threatening explosive gestures.

... it was the RABBIT! I didn't do anything!

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on October 04, 2012, 08:21:00 AM
... it was the RABBIT! I didn't do anything!

Yeah right, buddy. Come on, let's go. That's for a jury of your peers to decide, mister.

/me holds up cuffs


<.<

Quote from: darkquill on October 04, 2012, 07:02:59 AM
Following StarRanger's lead, I found some more interesting info (on some of the same sites).

Here's one about Kibun and giving gifts in business settings:
http://www.korea4expats.com/article-gifts-in-business.html
Interpreting our sending masks and capes, our buying the devs dinner, etc, and then their note of thanks in response through this lens may be useful.

That is interesting. Should I ever have cause to visit Korea, I should probably bring some bottles of Jack Daniels. It's sad that the biggest brand names native to my region are whiskey and Mountain Dew.

The very end of the "contracts" article is interesting.

Do we have any MIT attendees or grads on this board? The CEO's wife (and, I believe, CEO herself of NCWest) is an alumnus, and the special relationship between those who share a school may be quite useful here.

Thank every single one of you for these resources...facinating reading it really is.  The beginning glimmers of understanding have tempered my rage but not my frustration...and yet they have also renewed hope for a solution that is heroic.

Here are my questions.

Kibun is face, it is similar to honor but not the same.  Right?  It is also the mantaining of harmony.

The other word, Nunchi is to see, to perceive..correct?

So how would a South Korean react to causing massive loss of face to another through unknowingly "closed eyes" what is the remedy for massive loss of harmony through ignorance in their eyes.

Is the admission of previously closed eyes and willingness to partake in mutual healing a real tactic?

By their actions, in having closed eyes to the nunchi of the west they have stripped Kibun from themselves and all of us.  I game company that says games and their communities are without face or value is not a company that should be making games at all.

But the other option is closed eyes that have led to terrible lack of harmony for all and the chance to make a tre gesture of understandin and apology...Ignorance can be forgiven deliberate insult is much more difficult.

Did that make sense?

Made sense to me.

Quote from: DrakeGrimm on October 04, 2012, 08:41:48 AM

/me holds up cuffs

No comment.  8)

But back on track. Very interesting read! Thanks for that information.

I was able to follow it, Quantum.  And I think the answer is, "Depends on how well they cope with shame/embarrassment," which isn't much of an answer.  But I also haven't been doing all the research here.

Quote from: DrakeGrimm on October 04, 2012, 08:41:48 AM
Yeah right, buddy. Come on, let's go. That's for a jury of your peers to decide, mister.

/me holds up cuffs


<.<

You called me ?

/me flees

OK you folks who "get this" better than I do.  I am going to send another letter, this time to the CEO of NCSoft in Korea, via overnight, so it won't end up in the sorting room with the capes and masks.

This is the proposed content.  Anyone who has any comments or suggestions, they would be welcome.

I am an old woman.  I wake up weeping.  I go to bed weeping.  At times during the day, tears are flowing down my face.  I weep because you are destroying my home, you are destroying my village.  You are destroying City of Heroes.

You have closed your eyes to this destruction of our harmony.

I am an old woman.  I do not have the skills to join a new "game," even if I would be welcome there (in so many I have found, I am not).  I have no children.  My aged parents live 1500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband's parents live 1200 miles away and cannot travel.  My brother lives 750 miles away and cannot travel.  My best friend lives 500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband is ill.  All my social contact comes via a "game," my village, City of Heroes.  I live in the remote country, and am 20 miles away from the nearest town.  City of Heroes is my village.

You are destroying my harmony.  I will never get it back.  After November 30, I will live until I die in sorrow and loneliness.  You are the CEO of this company.  This is your fault.  You are destroying my village.  You have closed your eyes to this destruction.  I lay this at your feet.

There is a little crippled boy who has had his faith in adults to be wise and caring of the needs of children destroyed.  He will never get this faith back.  You have closed your eyes to destroying his faith.  I lay this at your feet.

There are parents who will never have the tool they need to reach out to their autistic children and bring them back.  They are weeping.  Their harmony is destroyed.  You have closed your eyes to their tears.  I lay this at your feet.

There are old and crippled and traumatized people who have also had their village destroyed by you.  Like me, they too will end their lives in sorrow and loneliness because of you.  You have closed your eyes to their sorrow.  I lay this at your feet.

Do not pretend you know nothing of me, of these people.  They have written you, many times.  If you ordered your underlings to destroy these letters before you saw them, that is just one more wrongful act you have done among all the others.  You have closed your eyes to their pleas.  I lay this, too, at your feet.

You are destroying our village as surely as if you were ordering bulldozers to bury a village of real houses.  There are thousands of us, who are losing what we need to make our lives a little more bearable.  I lay all this at your feet, all this destruction of harmony, all this promotion of grief and misery.  I lay it at your feet.  You are responsible.

Some of us are old, some of us are sick and dying, and will end our lives in sorrow and loneliness thanks to you.  We lay this at your feet.  You will bear the burden of this for the rest of your life.  Your company will bear the burden of this for as long as it survives.

There is one thing and one thing only you can do that will end this.  Sell City of Heroes to someone who will keep our village alive.  Only that will end the sorrow, the disharmony, and your guilt in perpetrating it.  Only this, and nothing less.

Wow. Never tick off a writer. If anyone can pull that off, you can.

oh and FPAVV (if that counts here)

That is powerful, polite, and yet shows the "fit of anger to regain kibun" that sounds like it's acceptable according to the OP and related articles. It also is deeply shaming, coming from an "old woman." (Characterizing it that way makes you both vulnerable and yet venerable-and-wise.)

I have not shown the best of judgment in some of the things I've suggested or thought were clever in the last couple of days, so I want to take a bit of time to think on it, but I think it's a good move. I also think that getting a strong, solid hint in there or via some other avenue that this will get wide public release should CoH/V actually finally close down would be utterly terrifying to the CEO of NCSoft. I think, based on my extremely limited knowledge of kibun and asian culture and PR in general, that you've found a masterful way of hitting them with a shame that could force the directorship of NCSoft to retire if it became public.

What I write here is a probably poor suggestion, but perhaps some variant on: "Because of the gravity of this to me and those I have named whose sorrows lay at your feet, it is imperative upon my own honor that I be certain you have seen and understood it. No private response will be sufficient; I cannot be sure it is you who have sent it. Therefore, should no action be taken to restore the harmony you are casting to the ground to splinter into ten thousand irretrievable shards, I will make this plea in a public reading of this letter on channels and venues I know you will be unable to miss."

That's clumsy and too openly threatening, I think, but if that can be reworked to fit the rest of the letter's tone and be a little more subtle (so nobody can point to it and scream "extortion!"), I think that we should try to get the sentiment in there.

Hm...  To this jaded cynical western ear, that sounds like "laying it on a bit thick".   

BUT...

You're not sending it to someone with a western ear. From what I've read on the kibun thread and related articles, I think this may be just right. Especially assuming it would be translated to Korean.

(For a comparative example - A lot of Asian emotional drama looks "caricatured" or "over the top" to Western eyes and ears It's why dramatic anime and Hong Kong Martial arts movies are still an "acquired taste" to many people. Although Asian comedy often translates quite well since slapstick is a common thing to both sets of cultures.)

I could be wrong though. Is anyone with a better "ear" for the kibun also thinking this looks good? I'm certainly no expert from reading what little has been posted here etc.

(And for what it's worth, VV - I have trouble thinking of you as "old". Blame those glamour shots of you they used for the hardcovers of your books. :)  )

Something else to consider mentioning is that this course of action is taking away the voices of many.

I have found it increasingly difficult to freely interact with people outside of my family in a direct fashion. I have not spoken a word to anyone I am not related to in the past three days, simply because I am no longer sure I can trust my own voice in regards to keeping the sense of betrayal from influencing my tone of voice and word choice.

I do not think I need to explain why it is important for one to keep one's voice from appearing aggressive and confrontational when there is no reason for such a tone to be taken with the person one is speaking with. It is really difficult for me to keep emotional control from bleeding into my voice when the feeling is of such intensity.

Quote from: Terwyn on October 05, 2012, 04:59:55 AM
Something else to consider mentioning is that this course of action is taking away the voices of many.

I have found it increasingly difficult to freely interact with people outside of my family in a direct fashion. I have not spoken a word to anyone I am not related to in the past three days, simply because I am no longer sure I can trust my own voice in regards to keeping the sense of betrayal from influencing my tone of voice and word choice.

I do not think I need to explain why it is important for one to keep one's voice from appearing aggressive and confrontational when there is no reason for such a tone to be taken with the person one is speaking with. It is really difficult for me to keep emotional control from bleeding into my voice when the feeling is of such intensity.

This is, from a western standpoint, a bit troubling, and I feel for your pain in this matter, Terwyn. If there's anything we can do as friends and fellow forumites, please let us know here or even in a pm.

From a Kibun standpoint, this seems the essence of just how badly they've damaged the Kibun of their customers and how their Nunchi is either utterly failed or they are deliberately scorning it. There is something in this we can use, much as I loathe the situation that makes it exist at all.

Added:

"There are people who are so burdened with sorrow, so burdened with anger over your actions, that they no longer dare to speak to others for fear their anger will overflow on those who do not deserve it.  You have stolen their voices, and you have closed your eyes to this.  I lay this at your feet."

....
:'(

Thank you.

Quote from: Terwyn on October 05, 2012, 05:15:06 AM
....
:'(

Thank you.

<hug>

Same here, but it's grief and not anger.  I can't even say the word "game" without breaking into tears.  Larry is terribly distressed on my behalf. 

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 12:43:55 AM
OK you folks who "get this" better than I do.  I am going to send another letter, this time to the CEO of NCSoft in Korea, via overnight, so it won't end up in the sorting room with the capes and masks.

This is the proposed content.  Anyone who has any comments or suggestions, they would be welcome.

I am an old woman.  I wake up weeping.  I go to bed weeping.  At times during the day, tears are flowing down my face.  I weep because you are destroying my home, you are destroying my village.  You are destroying City of Heroes.

You have closed your eyes to this destruction of our harmony.

I am an old woman.  I do not have the skills to join a new "game," even if I would be welcome there (in so many I have found, I am not).  I have no children.  My aged parents live 1500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband's parents live 1200 miles away and cannot travel.  My brother lives 750 miles away and cannot travel.  My best friend lives 500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband is ill.  All my social contact comes via a "game," my village, City of Heroes.  I live in the remote country, and am 20 miles away from the nearest town.  City of Heroes is my village.

You are destroying my harmony.  I will never get it back.  After November 30, I will live until I die in sorrow and loneliness.  You are the CEO of this company.  This is your fault.  You are destroying my village.  You have closed your eyes to this destruction.  I lay this at your feet.

There is a little crippled boy who has had his faith in adults to be wise and caring of the needs of children destroyed.  He will never get this faith back.  You have closed your eyes to destroying his faith.  I lay this at your feet.

There are parents who will never have the tool they need to reach out to their autistic children and bring them back.  They are weeping.  Their harmony is destroyed.  You have closed your eyes to their tears.  I lay this at your feet.

There are old and crippled and traumatized people who have also had their village destroyed by you.  Like me, they too will end their lives in sorrow and loneliness because of you.  You have closed your eyes to their sorrow.  I lay this at your feet.

Do not pretend you know nothing of me, of these people.  They have written you, many times.  If you ordered your underlings to destroy these letters before you saw them, that is just one more wrongful act you have done among all the others.  You have closed your eyes to their pleas.  I lay this, too, at your feet.

You are destroying our village as surely as if you were ordering bulldozers to bury a village of real houses.  There are thousands of us, who are losing what we need to make our lives a little more bearable.  I lay all this at your feet, all this destruction of harmony, all this promotion of grief and misery.  I lay it at your feet.  You are responsible.

Some of us are old, some of us are sick and dying, and will end our lives in sorrow and loneliness thanks to you.  We lay this at your feet.  You will bear the burden of this for the rest of your life.  Your company will bear the burden of this for as long as it survives.

There is one thing and one thing only you can do that will end this.  Sell City of Heroes to someone who will keep our village alive.  Only that will end the sorrow, the disharmony, and your guilt in perpetrating it.  Only this, and nothing less.

...I am an idiot child, scribbling in the dirt.

/me stands in awe

...it is always. Always. A treat to watch one of the master wordsmiths forge a blade of script and prose. Thank you for sharing this.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 05:24:58 AM
<hug>

Same here, but it's grief and not anger.  I can't even say the word "game" without breaking into tears.  Larry is terribly distressed on my behalf.

I can imagine. Humans have a tendency to reflect the emotional state of those whom they have the closest bond.

I suspect that the only reason why there is no outward expression of anguish that my family can detect is because my twin brother (Mentalshock) and I frequently discuss current matters. He does well to defuse the more volatile aspects of my mind.

Quote from: DrakeGrimm on October 05, 2012, 05:29:45 AM
...I am an idiot child, scribbling in the dirt.

/me stands in awe

...it is always. Always. A treat to watch one of the master wordsmiths forge a blade of script and prose. Thank you for sharing this.

Isn't it?

Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 05:48:04 AM
Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.

There's a reason why a modern linguistic debate is whether or not human musical ability pre-dates human language. You've definitely hit upon something instinctual here.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 05:48:04 AM
Aside from Confucianism, a major religious form in Korea is shamanism, and I was going for the rhythm and flavor of a shamanic chant, since I have more experience with that than Confucianism.

Hey Victoria, can you check your PMs when you get the chance?

Quote from: Terwyn on October 05, 2012, 05:30:27 AM
I can imagine. Humans have a tendency to reflect the emotional state of those whom they have the closest bond.

I suspect that the only reason why there is no outward expression of anguish that my family can detect is because my twin brother (Mentalshock) and I frequently discuss current matters. He does well to defuse the more volatile aspects of my mind.

As much as I do for you, you also do for me.   It's just that my volatile aspects are far more tightly contained.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 12:43:55 AM
I am an old woman.  I wake up weeping.  I go to bed weeping.  At times during the day, tears are flowing down my face.  I weep because you are destroying my home, you are destroying my village.  You are destroying City of Heroes.

You have closed your eyes to this destruction of our harmony.

I am an old woman.  I do not have the skills to join a new "game," even if I would be welcome there (in so many I have found, I am not).  I have no children.  My aged parents live 1500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband's parents live 1200 miles away and cannot travel.  My brother lives 750 miles away and cannot travel.  My best friend lives 500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband is ill.  All my social contact comes via a "game," my village, City of Heroes.  I live in the remote country, and am 20 miles away from the nearest town.  City of Heroes is my village.

You are destroying my harmony.  I will never get it back.  After November 30, I will live until I die in sorrow and loneliness.  You are the CEO of this company.  This is your fault.  You are destroying my village.  You have closed your eyes to this destruction.  I lay this at your feet.

There is a little crippled boy who has had his faith in adults to be wise and caring of the needs of children destroyed.  He will never get this faith back.  You have closed your eyes to destroying his faith.  I lay this at your feet.

There are parents who will never have the tool they need to reach out to their autistic children and bring them back.  They are weeping.  Their harmony is destroyed.  You have closed your eyes to their tears.  I lay this at your feet.

There are old and crippled and traumatized people who have also had their village destroyed by you.  Like me, they too will end their lives in sorrow and loneliness because of you.  You have closed your eyes to their sorrow.  I lay this at your feet.

Do not pretend you know nothing of me, of these people.  They have written you, many times.  If you ordered your underlings to destroy these letters before you saw them, that is just one more wrongful act you have done among all the others.  You have closed your eyes to their pleas.  I lay this, too, at your feet.

You are destroying our village as surely as if you were ordering bulldozers to bury a village of real houses.  There are thousands of us, who are losing what we need to make our lives a little more bearable.  I lay all this at your feet, all this destruction of harmony, all this promotion of grief and misery.  I lay it at your feet.  You are responsible.

Some of us are old, some of us are sick and dying, and will end our lives in sorrow and loneliness thanks to you.  We lay this at your feet.  You will bear the burden of this for the rest of your life.  Your company will bear the burden of this for as long as it survives.

There is one thing and one thing only you can do that will end this.  Sell City of Heroes to someone who will keep our village alive.  Only that will end the sorrow, the disharmony, and your guilt in perpetrating it.  Only this, and nothing less.

This is one great letter if I can recognize one, but even with as much respect I have, I'm concerned about the last paragraph.

Your letter risk being balled back because you only propose selling the game, where a lot more opportunities may exist. In fact, it's much more reasonable to think that all it could take to restore their Kibun, is to enter an open discussion, if not negitiation, with us that got hurt by their acts. The best we wish is this discussion to end with the IP sold to other hands, but if there is truly problems for them to sell the IP, stating their reasons is good enough. Coming open will "save face", whereas right now their obscurantism is hurting them more in our fan-publisher relation.

And a last far-fetched idea is to have Cryptic back up your letter as an "introduction" from a third person. It's also the last entity I think that may be needed to negotiate the IP/license, since NCSoft has acquired it from them.

Quote from: Mister Bison on October 05, 2012, 06:37:30 AM
This is one great letter if I can recognize one, but even with as much respect I have, I'm concerned about the last paragraph.

Your letter risk being balled back because you only propose selling the game, where a lot more opportunities may exist. In fact, it's much more reasonable to think that all it could take to restore their Kibun, is to enter an open discussion, if not negitiation, with us that got hurt by their acts. The best we wish is this discussion to end with the IP sold to other hands, but if there is truly problems for them to sell the IP, stating their reasons is good enough. Coming open will "save face", whereas right now their obscurantism is hurting them more in our fan-publisher relation.

And a last far-fetched idea is to have Cryptic back up your letter as an "introduction" from a third person. It's also the last entity I think that may be needed to negotiate the IP/license, since NCSoft has acquired it from them.

Bison makes an excellent point here..

Otherwise, I share Grimm's sentiment. The pen truly is mightier than the sword, and it is a craft you have done an exceptional job honing over your years.

I am really seriously tired of the stupid, badly bungled and rude handling by NCSoft. It all reeks of inept leadership and almost amateurish  thinking. The problem I see is that something is seriously wrong at NCSoft.

How hard is it to understand GAME MAKING MONEY - KEEP GAME GOING and MAKE MONEY.

It's late and I'm preaching. Time for bed.

VV, I swear that if I hadn't already recovered from crying once today, I would have after reading that letter.

I'm going to agree on Bison's point as well, though. Encourage them to reapproach the table but don't explicitly aim for selling the game. Yet.

This is why I post and ask for the opinions of those of you that understand kibun better than I do.

I'll revise it to say something about coming back to the negotiating table to "give us the chance for our village to be saved."

Revised text:

Sir;

I am an old woman.  Since August 31, I wake up weeping.  I go to bed weeping.  At times during the day, tears are flowing down my face.  I weep because you are destroying my home, you are destroying my village.  You are destroying City of Heroes.

You have closed your eyes to this destruction of our harmony.

I am an old woman.  I do not have the skills to join a new "game," even if I would be welcome there (in so many I have found, I am not).  I have no children.  My aged parents live 1500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband's parents live 1200 miles away and cannot travel.  My brother lives 750 miles away and cannot travel.  My best friend lives 500 miles away and cannot travel.  My husband is ill.  All my social contact comes via a "game," my village, City of Heroes.  I live in the remote country, and am 20 miles away from the nearest town.  City of Heroes is my village.

You are destroying my harmony.  I will never get it back, for I am old and the old do not recover quickly.  After November 30, I will live until I die in sorrow and loneliness.  You are the CEO of this company.  This is your fault.  You are destroying my village.  You have closed your eyes to this destruction.  I lay this at your feet.

There is a little crippled boy who has had his faith in adults to be wise and caring of the needs of children destroyed.  He will never get this faith back.  You have closed your eyes to this destruction of his faith.  I lay this at your feet.

There are parents who will never have the tool they need to reach out to their autistic children and bring them back.  They are weeping.  Their harmony is destroyed.  You have closed your eyes to their tears.  I lay this at your feet.

There are other old or crippled or traumatized people in this village besides me, who are suffering because of its destruction.  Like me, they too will end their lives in sorrow and loneliness because of you.  You have closed your eyes to their sorrow.  I lay this at your feet.

There are people who are so burdened with sorrow, so burdened with anger over your actions, that they no longer dare to speak to others for fear their anger will overflow on those who do not deserve it.  You have stolen their voices, and you have closed your eyes to this.  I lay this at your feet.

Do not pretend you know nothing of me, of these people.  They have written you, many times.  If you ordered your underlings to destroy these letters before you saw them, that is just one more wrongful act you have done amid all the others.  You have closed your eyes to their pleas.  I lay this, too, at your feet.

You are destroying our village as surely as if you were ordering bulldozers to bury a village of real houses.  There are thousands of us, who are losing what we need to make our lives a little more bearable.  I lay all this at your feet, all this destruction of harmony, all this promotion of grief and misery.  I lay it at your feet.  You are responsible.

Some of us are old, some of us are sick and dying, and will end our lives in sorrow and loneliness thanks to you.  We lay this at your feet.  You will bear the burden of this for the rest of your life.  Your company will bear the burden of this for as long as it survives.

You alone have the power to end this destruction of our harmony.  You have the power to decide, not to destroy our village, but to find a way to preserve it.  You alone have the power to return to the point between us and find a solution.  You have only to use that power, for harmony to be restored.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 10:49:50 AM
Revised text:

From my incredibly limited experience, this may hit on some cultural expectations--I believe that being able to properly produce poetry was considered a mark of high social standing at some points in Korean history. I'm no expert on Korean poetry, though, so I'm not sure what makes a poem "good" to a Korean ear. That said, I could produce some references if more research was desired.

VV,

That was a very powerful letter...studying comparative mythology has given me insight into what shapes many cultures, unfortunately when it comes to Korea I am still a child with barely open eyes....but a seeker of knowledge.  The only thing I can do is ask the uncomfortable questions that have to be asked :(

1. Is the admission of being childless helpful?  There are some cultures in which this would exponentially reduce your status.  There are some where an older woman without children well the thought of even finishing this sentance sickens me.  Is this true of Korea?

|2. Elder are honored in most of Asia to my knowledge, do we actually know this to hold true in Korea

3. Damaged children um, I hate even asking this, but do they find the damaged worthy of preservation?  <shudder>.

4.  Being female is there anything specific in the roles of women that could trip the efforts of women up in interacting with them?  Are women honored? Seen as Equals?

5. Bison may have a point on needing an introduction.

I don't like asking these questions...but the answers are important.

Please don't hate me for asking these questions.

Quote from: Optimism Penguin on October 03, 2012, 04:16:41 PM
Nice research.  I think a helpful phrase you might want to look up in addition is 체면 (pronounced cheh myun), as it is the Korean concept for face or more pertinently saving face.

Thanks for kicking ass in the research StarRanger.

-Opti

It looks like its actually spelled Chea Myun, and I'll be starting to work that research later today.  Right now I have to take care of RL comittments to maintain family Kibun and the like. (its also why I've been seemingly missing the last few days)

Quote from: QuantumHero on October 05, 2012, 02:16:11 PM
VV,

That was a very powerful letter...studying comparative mythology has given me insight into what shapes many cultures, unfortunately when it comes to Korea I am still a child with barely open eyes....but a seeker of knowledge.  The only thing I can do is ask the uncomfortable questions that have to be asked :(

1. Is the admission of being childless helpful?  There are some cultures in which this would exponentially reduce your status.  There are some where an older woman without children well the thought of even finishing this sentance sickens me.  Is this true of Korea?

|2. Elder are honored in most of Asia to my knowledge, do we actually know this to hold true in Korea

3. Damaged children um, I hate even asking this, but do they find the damaged worthy of preservation?  <shudder>.

4.  Being female is there anything specific in the roles of women that could trip the efforts of women up in interacting with them?  Are women honored? Seen as Equals?

5. Bison may have a point on needing an introduction.

I don't like asking these questions...but the answers are important.

Please don't hate me for asking these questions.

Anybody who gives you grief for asking these questions can answer to me. We need to be able to ask the hard questions to each other, or we'll never get anything done. Each of these is a valid cultural question, one I think our research team needs to get on.

I actually only read and processed what StarRanger dug up. Fortunately it seems I got it right the first time, but blame it on luck, on the Chaos that made us all different. Things come immediately for some where it could get very long for others because they understood the opposite, because they "draw" on the random numbers was a fitting one or the opposite.

I'm into learning algorithms, especially "stochastic" ones, so I may be more willing to see humanity as a huge brute-force algorithm :P

Quote from: Mister Bison on October 05, 2012, 10:26:00 PMI'm into learning algorithms, especially "stochastic" ones, so I may be more willing to see humanity as a huge brute-force algorithm :P

No, we're more of a hybrid Genetic Algorithm and Particle Swarm Optimization.

Quote from: Segev on October 05, 2012, 11:17:46 PMNo, we're more of a hybrid Genetic Algorithm and Particle Swarm Optimization.

And each particle's error function is a Neuronal Network whose parameters are from genetics.

Wasn't it us that discovered "42" ? or we were made to discover the question ? That seems mighty plausible.

Quote from: Mister Bison on October 05, 2012, 11:21:17 PM
And each particle's error function is a Neuronal Network whose parameters are from genetics.

Wasn't it us that discovered "42" ? or we were made to discover the question ? That seems mighty plausible.

The question.  Which, Mr Adams allegedly claimed was something along the lines of "What is six x seven"

Quote from: StarRanger4 on October 05, 2012, 11:28:55 PM
The question.  Which, Mr Adams allegedly claimed was something along the lines of "What is six x seven"

Potato!

Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!

Let's call the whole thing off!

:D

I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned.  I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.  I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it.  You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious." 

Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 12:33:01 AM
I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned.  I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.  I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it.  You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious." 

Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.

If you think of anything a wordsmith-in-training can contribute, VV, just let me know. I think this letter of yours has a great chance at hitting the mark, and would like to make sure it succeeds. :)

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 12:33:01 AM
I'm not sending this until it's fine-tuned.  I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.  I also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

But I'm not sure, so if anyone can dig anything up on either of those I would appreciate it.  You might have noticed I tinkered with the language a bit to make it more smooth and "harmonious." 

Since I plan to send this by overnight mail we have all weekend to work on it.

VV,

As another childless woman who holds enormous respect for you...I just wanted to offer you a hug for the things revealed in that letter and for any further pain I caused you by asking these painful questions...I was thinking of china and north korea with differently-able children you hit it right on the head.  I also hope they are more modern and that women are see as more then brood mares...but in Japan I understand that proper behavior is to walk behind one'shusband and they are also modernized in many ways.  They don't necesarilly haveto actually be degrading to women to have some small but critical piece of inter-gender protocal that could be very important for female leter writers..and there I ask for myself as well.

I am trying to decide if I am ashamed of myself for completely ignoring south korea in my quest to understand what shapes history and cultures across the world...but then I remember how little effort this company has previously made to understand us.  My words for them kep vacilating between pity for their ignorance and closed eyes, desperation for those eyes to open....and the desire to rip them multiple new orifaces with a razor sharp tongue.

/me hugs EVERYONE in this  thread.

Just so you know, I didn't have kids because I didn't want kids, not because I couldn't have them.  However I am not averse to playing that card to my advantage.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 01:19:52 AM
Just so you know, I didn't have kids because I didn't want kids, not because I couldn't have them.  However I am not averse to playing that card to my advantage.

I undertand VV, at the age of 37 I am at the point of needing to make that final decision one way or another before biology makes that point moot.. and somehow why am just the least bit afraid of the prospect of playing cards with you   ;) but then ncsoft is the one who keeps trying to play the game of Bullshit (which actually is a card game btw) but I also liked the phrase.

In a story it would come down to a dramatic speach, an honorabl competition, or an epic battle...one thingis for certain...if we do go down and there is no prospect of reprieve, no cooperation then on November 30th...we make a personal forest of sorrows for ncsoft which protects all other western gaming communities forever.   I suspect my implication there is clear to anyone who has read or written  ;) a certain series of books.

We are heroes, and this is what we do :) 

....but I don't want to turn into a tree!

Me, I do want kids. Scads of them. Hopefully, whatever girl is generous enough to wed me will feel the same.


And no, we're not turning you into a tree, VV. What do you think this is, Speaker for the Dead? :P

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 02:30:18 AM
....but I don't want to turn into a tree!

And thus the "Mercedes is secretly Fluttershy" rumor is debunked.

Yes, I just made up that rumor. What's your point?

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 02:30:18 AM
....but I don't want to turn into a tree!

I'd rather be the forest than the tree.  But I agree with VV in that respect.  Vanyel's curse, while powerfull, isnt exactly the way I wanna go out either.

Quote from: StarRanger4 on October 06, 2012, 03:04:34 PM
I'd rather be the forest than the tree.  But I agree with VV in that respect.  Vanyel's curse, while powerfull, isnt exactly the way I wanna go out either.

You gotta admit though - as final exits go - that one had STYLE.

All this focus on cultural angles gives me the image of trying to negotiate with Chiun from The Destroyer. Maybe that's a good image; one would not want to piss Chiun off.

Quote from: QuantumHero on October 06, 2012, 02:23:27 AM
In a story it would come down to a dramatic speach, an honorabl competition, or an epic battle...one thingis for certain...if we do go down and there is no prospect of reprieve, no cooperation then on November 30th...we make a personal forest of sorrows for ncsoft which protects all other western gaming communities forever.

It perplexes me that anyone ever expected... what? A transfer of ownership within a couple month's time and uninterrupted service come November 30? That's what it sounds like whenever folks speak of November 30 as if there is no hope of accomplishing anything on December 1, or in the following months or years. Are you aware of some nefarious plan by NCSoft to delete everything and burn all physical records at midnight, November 30?

Pressure to sell or license the property should persist just the same on December first. Shutting the servers down doesn't shut us down. Or shouldn't, at least.

Not that I'm against illicit measures, before and after November 30, but I'd hope such things are geared more to preserving City of Heroes than warring with NCSoft. Calling upon the DDOS wrath of Anonymous is not really my line of thinking.

Quote from: Mantic on October 06, 2012, 04:56:51 PMAre you aware of some nefarious plan by NCSoft to delete everything and burn all physical records at midnight, November 30?

I have no idea what is usually done with account info/game info when a game is shut down, or what NCsoft plans to do with it when they shut CoH down.  Pretty sure just storing it all wouldn't cost too much, but if they don't want anything else to do with the game they might not bother storing anything.  And they haven't told us anything about it, so who knows.

I'm not the best/most organized researcher but I've done some preliminary scrounging that might be able to get someone who is a better researcher in the right direction.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 12:33:01 AM
I *think* that enough modernity has trickled over into Korea at this point that admitting your are old and childless is inclined to elicit more pity ("she has no one to take care of her!") than scorn.

That seems to be correct, although there's a slight amount of panic (since it then falls to the government to lend a hand to the women, that puts a budget issue on the horizon)

Side note: if you follow some of the strictest ancestor worship, Congratulations! We're going to turn in to minor evil gods when we die.  See you in Dark Astoria and I call dibs on sending out the Elders of Sorrow.  :P  A more shamanic tone seems to be right on track: out in the countryside it's much more common for women to take up shamanism (http://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/publications/afs/pdf/a495.pdf).

QuoteI also believe that the SOUTH Koreans are at the stage of admitting that "differently abled" kids are worth having around, as opposed to China and NORTH Korea who refuse to admit they have any such thing.

There is still a large stigma attached unfortunately, especially to children in the autism spectrum (which is blamed on the children's moms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother_theory) and seen as a shame to the whole family).

However a somewhat recent study on the number of children in the autism spectrum in S. Korea (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/09/health/research/09autism.html?_r=0) garnered a fair amount of press, so hopefully someone in the city would have a more modern view.

Hopefully.

Quote from: Tacitala on October 07, 2012, 01:05:44 AM

There is still a large stigma attached unfortunately, especially to children in the autism spectrum (which is blamed on the children's moms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother_theory) and seen as a shame to the whole family).

Interesting, since that would seem to work in the letter's favor, since it is the mothers of these kids who themselves found a way via CoH to turn the kids around.

Quote from: P51mus on October 06, 2012, 09:53:04 PM
I have no idea what is usually done with account info/game info when a game is shut down, or what NCsoft plans to do with it when they shut CoH down.  Pretty sure just storing it all wouldn't cost too much, but if they don't want anything else to do with the game they might not bother storing anything.  And they haven't told us anything about it, so who knows.

Hit Streak said that they're probably planning to back up stuff. Check the stream from a couple of days ago.

Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?

I'm unsure. on the one hand, I wonder why they should get any warning at all, since they gave neither the players or Paragon Studios any warning of their intentions.

On the other hand - we're trying to play to a very specific cultural paradigm here. I have no idea if a warning is considered polite or if it's unnecessary or if in their culture "saving face" would mean they don't bring up such thing so neither should you?

Star Ranger? Got anything?

VV, thank you. Reading your letter was like reading what my heart has been chanting wordlessly for weeks now.

I, too, am childless, and will remain so.  While I do not consider 39 (dear god 40 in less than 2 weeks HOW DID THAT HAPPEN) to be remotely old, due to M.S. and other health problems my body suffers issues that are more akin to old age than middle age. I dread what might come when I have actual age-related issues on top of what I already suffer.

I spend most of my time trapped in my house. I cannot even spend much time outside due to severe heat sensitivity issues - I live in Louisiana, and it is typically dangerously hot for me up to 9 months out of the year. City of Heroes is not my only escape, but it is far and away the one that means the most to me. It is easy to play. It is friendly to solo or group. I can spend hours sitting on an island in the sky in Ouroboros, or flying in the sky, when I really need peace and escape from the facts of my life. Sleep has been difficult this past month. I either cannot fall asleep or I wake up in terror. I feel so trapped. Caged. Alone. Abandoned. Ignored.

Worthless.

And I lay that entirely at NCSoft's feet.

My wife was showing me an article on how NCSoft seems poised to replace CoH with Blade and Soul in Western markets. (It looks like adult entertainment replaces one of the few family-friendly MMOs, in this case. That should also tell us something about gender and violence attitudes in the NCSoft company decision making, as compared to this community's values. Article here (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/06/corps-shut-down-family-friendly-products/).) A point in that article grated against my understanding of business psychology, and the spark illuminated for me how the kibun concept may have played into the NCSoft decison making.

In Korean business, is it proper maintenance of kibun to quickly and softly dispose of "mistakes?" My wife said the article was suggesting that CoH is a cash cow. City of Heroes is no cash cow. A cash cow doesn't make up a mere 2% of revenue. In fact, despite the fact that CoH has been profitable, it may be considered a disappointment. Perhaps NCSoft leadership promised more to the directors, and the finanical and market performance of CoH is an embarrassment when put next to their other products. To preserve kibun, wouldn't it just be better to quietly trim that embarrassing product? There is no need to make a fuss or to say anything further; and certainly not to prolong or increase the visibility of the "bad" decision to have such a product in the inventory. This may explain the "why" of the decision. As other posters have suggested, it seems that NCSoft leadership has subsequently tried to implement its decision in the best way to preserve kibun.

Suggestion: Perhaps one way to approach this is to praise the charitable decision that NCSoft made in keeping the game for so long. They have supported their customers even when perhaps this decision should have been taken some time ago. Now, to further support their customers, NCSoft can lead the gaming community by seeking a worthy niche successor firm whose business model COH will fit, now that NCSoft has grown beyond this game. This would allow NCSoft to continue its good work with a wise business decision. They would be generous to the customers who are loyal to this product and wise to promote a niche firm that has no real competitive leverage against their preferred markets. In the age of online social media, the power of individual customers and collective networks is increasing. It may be wise for a forward-thinking firm to get out ahead of that trend and turn a difficulty into an advantage.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. Please take this for what it's worth.

Quote from: Atlantea on October 07, 2012, 08:47:35 AM
I'm unsure. on the one hand, I wonder why they should get any warning at all, since they gave neither the players or Paragon Studios any warning of their intentions.

On the other hand - we're trying to play to a very specific cultural paradigm here. I have no idea if a warning is considered polite or if it's unnecessary or if in their culture "saving face" would mean they don't bring up such thing so neither should you?

Star Ranger? Got anything?

Culturally, hinting at it without coming out and saying it allows them to exercise their nunchi to recognize something and take action to preserve kibun before they are shamed by the revelation that they "should have known" what was coming. If the hint is visible in retrospect but is not crass, then it likely will, when seen by "outsiders," reflect even more poorly on NCSoft for having had such poor nunchi that they failed to preserve kibun.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 07, 2012, 08:31:20 AM
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?

With the existing tone of the letter, I would leave it as unstated but understood. I would suggest (if it's possible) getting someone to translate the letter into Korean. I wish I had a resource to offer, but this is a bit too far afield for me to be able to impose upon my Korean acquaintances for help.

Kartanian's point about leaving the small way out to save kibun of "we'll praise your business acumen if you act with charity and correct your 'mistake' in a way that doesn't make another one - by finding a niche publisher" is a good one. While we ARE going to ramp things up at this point to make CoH's closing at least as big an embarassment to NCSoft as any form of keeping it running could have been, we should always leave the slightest door open so that, should NCSoft suddenly "realign" its position to serve our ends, we can help them spin the whole thing to a net positive as soon as the game is restored.

Quote from: Atlantea on October 07, 2012, 08:47:35 AM
Star Ranger? Got anything?

Not really.  Digging the stuff out of the net is one thing.  Doesn't exactly make me a cultural expert, though.

As a guess, I'd say no, though.  Even threatening this sort of loss of face could possibly be disturbing enough to cause them to bunker up even harder rather than bring them back to the bargaining table in good faith.

One other thought on it...  Make it a point that they're effectively destroying a whole village.  That happened a lot; it might still have enough cultural umph to make them think about it.

I think the "threat of loss of face" will have to be subtle but sharp. If it's not there at all, they will ignore it. If it's unsubtle, they will feel they lose face either way. If it's subtle and sharp, it may bring them back just by virtue of their cultural instinct to watch carefully for cues and avoid loss of face that results from failing to read them.

My personnal stance on these kind of thing is to be honest, not subtle. Frankly, thelepathy is hard for me, and I don't know the others, so I help them out. But then I'm also frequently told I'm hard to discuss with. I've also read that telling your feelings instead of your reasonning is generally easier for people to listen, less pedantic. But a discourse that's whine only is also hard to take into account, so it boils down to tell your feelings and then propose something, or downright tell you're helpless and seek for help.

The bottomline could be that if the subtle letter is not understood well, get them a rawer letter, even phrased "if you don't answer, I'm going to assume it's because I'm not good enough for you, so I shall ask somebody else , tell them how I feel, and they'll know what you have done to me, to get help". It doesn't look like a threat, but truth is hard to hear sometimes.

<hugs shaz>

1. I had a taste of it, but only a taste.    A serious car accident that took me 4 years of very difficult rehabilitation....I have multiple herniated disks in my neck and came very close to ending up with an arm that barely functioned.  I will be on pain medication for the rest of my life because of it but at least for now I am mostly recovered.   What happens when aging comes into play, in the not to distant future....I do not know.

2. As for the tree thing folks, you all do realize I was being a tiny bit dramatic there I hope...right?   My background is public speaking, among other things folks so when I am not completely playing around/relaxing I tend to choose my words for impact. :)

I would rather see the pieces of our souls that we placed in this game, this community, preserved in an active forest and/or a gathering of vrondi (tap, tap, tap, ncsoft, tap, tap, tap) then thrown on a garbage heap or disperse over thier pre-arranged cliff like good little sheep.  Is that clear enough  ;)  Guard and annoy until the bad people go away :)

3. I don't expect arrangements for a transition/sale to be *finished* by November 30, Mantic....but they sure as hell better have *resumed/started* and be moving forward.

I want an actual real sign that this company is willing to turn over a new leaf and learn the difference between retiring a game and killing it....if not then game killer is the crown they will wear until it becomes crushingly heavy

4. But back to learning how to speak the language of face and vision and getting VV's letter out :) followed by many, many more.

My instinct is to subtly go for the jugular here, to threaten them with loss of face...as long as they actually understand it then subtle is better but *will* they understand?  And do I want to be sharp to make them also feel pain or because it is the right move...I know anger tries to cloud my judgement these days.  That I lay at their feet.  All the anger all the tears all the pain...it is so rare for me to get angry to border on hatred...and yet they have

Let them only listen and understand...see a course of action that restores face to all.  Let us have the wisdom to temper anger and pain into solution.

I am trying, we are all trying...are they?

   

The reason for the subtlety is precisely because of kibun.

I'm like you, Mister Bison, but we need to be reaching out to their cultural standard on this one.

F--- Kibun. >:l I just want my game, and my friends to stay.

Edit: *ahem* -eabrace

As do we all, Orlock; trying to use kibun to our advantage is probably our best hope.

<orlock> we understand...this is a tool, a way to maybe actually reach them...I understand that completely and am still struggling to hold my temper in check...half the time these days.  There is a huge piece of me that can think of kibun only as a weapon, a way to hurt them but we *must* try making them truely hear us first...we must.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 07, 2012, 08:31:20 AM
Does anyone think I should add something to hint that if we don't get some kind of movement on saving City, this letter is likely to find its way to a larger...and more Korean...audience?  Or should I leave it as it stands?

IMO, the time for that move (hinting at greater distribution) would be after this version fails to get results. Hopefully, that won't be necessary...

Hey, it's only another $20 for an overnight letter.  I can ALWAYS write and send a second with "You clearly have shut your eyes to our disharmony, our grief, and our loss over the destruction of our village.  I must now lay this before the feet of your countrymen."

So the consensus seems to be send it as the "tuned" version, no further revisions.

I *might* know someone who could not only get this translated into good Korean, but would know what newspapers to send it to in Korea; one of our former CCCP members (Soviette/Untermensch/Chug, and yes, we've used his characters with his blessing in Secret World Chronicle) who has been living and working there for...3 years that I know of.  I'll get hold of him, he and I still correspond now and again.

What I wouldn't give to have eyes in the boardroom or offices when it FINALLY begins to dawn on the NCSoft execs what kind of hornets nest they've kicked. :D

Excellent, VV! Good luck. ^_^_v

Atlantea: You're not the only one. Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<

Translated into Korean is *good* <starts deliberately over-the-top dangerously mischievious laugh> oh to be a fly on the wall when this is widely seen.  Go get em VV.

Quote from: Segev on October 08, 2012, 01:44:38 AMAre we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<

Not a Nemesis Agent insists that he's working hard undercover on our behalf.
Of course, he's said that to almost every group, ever, so keep your salt handy...

Hey, if he's not a Nemesis agent, I'm not worried. It's only Nemesis agents that would worry me. *sagenod*

Quote from: Segev on October 08, 2012, 01:44:38 AM
Are we SURE we don't have any heroes or villains on our game who can break out of the fourth wall and do some super-spying for us? >_> <_<

...
...
Let's not go there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore)... yet.  Although I know there are characters well loved, and fully developed, enough to qualify.

Add another vote of getting the letter translated.  After all, it's only polite to send correspondence in the recipient's native language when possible.  Hopefully the rhythm will still flow when translated.

The closer it gets to Nov 30, the more I am inclined to the "up the ante" stage of this, but I am going to need a videographer and someone who speaks Korean to do a voice over for me.  I'm thinking about a You Tube video, entitled: Women of Korea!  THIS is how NCSOFT wants the West to think of you!

And use this footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel) with a voiceover of how NCSoft is pushing Boobs and Sluts in the West.

Thoughts?  If this seems like another good shaming technique I'll need an early start on it.

Wouldn't we need a fluent speaker of Korean for the vocals?

Quote from: Segev on October 09, 2012, 12:32:53 AM
Wouldn't we need a fluent speaker of Korean for the vocals?

That's why I need a long head start on this if peeps think it's a good idea.  I'd get it out there around Nov 15, so I would need that much time to contact Ken or, failing Ken, another friend who is working in Korea and get a sound file.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 12:16:05 AM
The closer it gets to Nov 30, the more I am inclined to the "up the ante" stage of this, but I am going to need a videographer and someone who speaks Korean to do a voice over for me.  I'm thinking about a You Tube video, entitled: Women of Korea!  THIS is how NCSOFT wants the West to think of you!

And use this footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzmqOW0c3o8&feature=fvwrel) with a voiceover of how NCSoft is pushing Boobs and Sluts in the West.

Thoughts?  If this seems like another good shaming technique I'll need an early start on it.

Gotta be careful on how this is worded. If I'm not mistaken, the slut walk began in Korea, which more or less a global fight to dress provocative without getting any negative comments. Is it even PC to say this is shameful anymore? Or could this end up making the liberal extremists bear down on us?

I honestly don't know Korean culture enough to say if it would work or not. Sorry.  :-\

You know I'd support anything you'd try to do on this front, VV.

First question that pops to my mind - is it possible to get any good read on what Korean women actually DO think about this?

Is gaming in Korea (and maybe by extension other Asian countries like China and Japan) an area nearly exclusive to young men?

I know that here in the West, there's been harassment of female gamers (thankfully not as much in COH). Is it prevalent enough in Korea to drive girls and women away almost entirely? Maybe this is one of the reasons for the objectification of women in B&S and other games - there's not enough pushback on it because girls and women in Korea simply stay away from computer games (or at least MMOs of that type)?

Before we can use this to shame NCSoft, it might be a good idea to find out what kind of reaction such an effort might receive. Will we get a "hell yeah! We're tired of that over here too!"  Or will it be "Oh? I don't associate with boys who play those games anyway, what do I care? I don't play video games anyway because women aren't welcome."

I would hope there's enough of a female presence in the gaming industry in Korea to even have an effect. But generally I suspect participation is low both as player and as designers, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing crap like Boobs and Shame in the first place!

It would be nice to know these things. Though in general I'd support anything like this.

These are all questions that I would like answers to, and don't have the time to research.  I could ask Ken, I expect...boy, is he gonna get a long letter...but if anyone else has time, please see what you can find.

My impression of Korean women is that they are very modest, and I don't imagine they'd care to be portrayed like this, especially not to foreigners.  But I could be wrong.

As to the Slut Walks, I think the point here is that this sort of portrayal of women is extremely exploitative, extremely objectifying (remember that the artist in question is male) and quite the opposite of what the Slut Walks are all about.  I'm about as liberal as they come, and I find the females portrayed in Boobs and Shame insulting, degrading, and infuriating, and I would even if NCSoft wasn't replacing CoH with T&A.

Okay, working on limited knowledge from past misdeeds but here you go (Last trip to the peninsula was Fall 09' so cultural data is current as of that, but their culture also has a habit of changing very slowly):

Korean women are still fairly conservative as far as dress, personal appearance and decorum are concerned.  There is more western influence being seen in the younger crowds (teen-college), but to get ahead in life (good paying job, advantages in education for the kids, etc.) you still need to pander to the older generations who are still in positions of authority.  So, Korean women would most likely not like to be portrayed like the pictures we've seen of Blade and Soul.  On the other hand, the pop singers of Korean fame these days are fairly risque even by our standards, and their influence does grow.  Really, target audience is going to be pivotal for any efforts directed towards the Korean peninsula.

Amusingly enough, and I don't have stats, just my observations from my previous misdeeds, computer games are pretty huge over there (5 million-ish play Starcraft at least casually, and it is considered a national sport). E-gaming is actually a way to make a living, and the salaries some of those people rake in are comparable to some of our own pro-athletes.  That said, you can check the standings all you like, women are in a stark minority.

There is less of a true spirit of individuality and more of a communal follower-ship dynamic present in society.  Current issues that work to our detriment in attempting to get people to see anything in our perspective are as follows.

Target age groups: Too young and they have no influence, too old and they won't have a reason to care or sufficient cause to speak out.  This isn't an area that's really easy to exploit because it really doesn't effect them and their economy as a whole, and if nothing else anti-American sentiment is slowly on the rise again in the nation's youth through younger college age work force (granted this is usually subject to which way the wind blows a given day, and the current status of the Korea-US FTA, but that is a different discussion for a different time).

Style of gaming:  The preference for them is competitive gaming.  City of Heroes did not resonate with them at all, and with our lack of PvP options, one of the primary stress relievers and status builders in their gaming mindsets was completely nixed.  Frankly, our game doesn't have much to offer them, and never really did.  Also, games come and go for them like any other fad.  I doubt its uncommon for them to see a game go dark.  Hence, in the U.S. we've still got older games, but most NC titles have been pulled off line at some point or another (Tabula Rasa, Exteel, Dungeon Runners).  When they're done, they're done.  That's the mindset.

Corporate Communal-ism: One corporation doesn't get in the chili of another corporation in any overt ways.  You aren't going to get people who work for a living in company X saying anything about anyone other than their own company, and that is only to tow the company line.  Organizations are like family extensions out there, and they believe in very large extended families.  Tangent-If you think travel is a nightmare here on Thanksgiving, you should see what traffic looks like there on 추석 (Korean Thanksgiving-Aug 15 on the Lunar calander, roughly pronounced Chuseok (By the way, I really hate attempting to do Korean phonetics into English-they never Romanize quite right)).

Internet society:  Trolling, cyberbullying, and otherwise just absolutely flaming people to death for daring to be different (culturally 'different is wrong' is the mindset not the 'different is different' we have here) is rampant.  There really is a stigma about doing things in untested ways that really get's their collective hackles up.  You can rise against your peers and outdo them in the standard ways:  academically, physically, charismatically, but if you are somewhat of an individual, quirky, or downright weird people will collectively make your life suck.

We're not Korean:  This is probably the biggest problem any efforts to sway the masses will face.  They will protest the hell out of a domestic issue, and some of their protests make ours look fairly tame.  However, City of Heroes is a foreign issue dealing with foreigners and frankly they aren't likely to care.  Most Koreans do not ever leave the peninsula, and while they are very good trading partners-sometimes-the average person is fairly xenophobic and is prone to openly stare at foreigners in their streets.  It can be kind of creepy at times.

That's it of the top of my head, but I'm fairly certain I'm forgetting stuff.

I'm genuinely sorry for a post that is a lot of problems without solutions, but my arena is not the corporate setting.  I happen to know a few things about the society and language, and I feel it is best to be forewarned about any potential pitfalls or societal idiosyncrasies that may hinder rather than help.

That said I very much encourage all efforts with any plans to deal with the people directly.  Finding expats with current knowledge of people they can talk to or what websites and forums are likely to get any traction is the best information resource I can think of at this time.  I've got neither, and aside from being able to poorly and slowly translate the language (my skills are really not what they once were, and my time is really not my own these days), bits of cultural data is about the best I've got to offer these days.

Happy hunting and hit me up with a message if you need anything more in depth or if you want to yell at me for the pessimism.

-Opti

*nods*  Sounds like the target audience wouldn't care.  Roger that, consider that idea ditched.

Quote from: TimtheEnchanter on October 09, 2012, 12:51:52 AM
Gotta be careful on how this is worded. If I'm not mistaken, the slut walk began in Korea, which more or less a global fight to dress provocative without getting any negative comments. Is it even PC to say this is shameful anymore? Or could this end up making the liberal extremists bear down on us?

Canada, actually. Since it was a police officer speaking at a university in Toronto whose comments lead to the start of such events, one must conclude its causal nature is fundamentally Canadian.

But still, that art style is insulting.

Quote from: Terwyn on October 09, 2012, 04:55:12 AM
Canada, actually. Since it was a police officer speaking at a university in Toronto whose comments lead to the start of such events, one must conclude its causal nature is fundamentally Canadian.

But still, that art style is insulting.

Sexisim in games is a long-brewing problem.  See

http://www.feministfrequency.com/  (http://www.feministfrequency.com/)

which involves one attempt to the issue.  And she's taken a LOT of abuse over it. 

Quote from: epawtows on October 09, 2012, 05:25:04 AM
Sexisim in games is a long-brewing problem.  See

http://www.feministfrequency.com/  (http://www.feministfrequency.com/)

which involves one attempt to the issue.  And she's taken a LOT of abuse over it.

Because she's wasting the time she should be spending making me a sandwich! ;)

I kid, of course.

In all seriousness, what I've seen it could really go either way, could be decent.. could be hypocritical extremist feminism in action.
The problem with the feminist movement is there have been too many who have taken it hypocritical extremes and gotten away with it, to the point where.. the pursuit of equality has been tainted to be seen as the pursuit of privilege. (Don't want to derail the thread with any possible further rant, or discussion that may spawn from this.. if you want to discuss this, or yell at me for being a sexist pig, PM me.)

Quote from: Zolgar on October 09, 2012, 07:08:19 AM
Because she's wasting the time she should be spending making me a sandwich! ;)

I kid, of course.

In all seriousness, what I've seen it could really go either way, could be decent.. could be hypocritical extremist feminism in action.
The problem with the feminist movement is there have been too many who have taken it hypocritical extremes and gotten away with it, to the point where.. the pursuit of equality has been tainted to be seen as the pursuit of privilege. (Don't want to derail the thread with any possible further rant, or discussion that may spawn from this.. if you want to discuss this, or yell at me for being a sexist pig, PM me.)

Nah.  I'm a feminist from the original 60s round, and I agree with you.  I like my fellow humans with external plumbing.  It's the Neanderthals who want to drag us back to the 1850s I can't stand.

Not to naysay what you're doing, because it's inspiring how much serious effort you are putting into a letter and I hope that NCSoft recognize that when they see it, but I'm not sure that the modest and humble image of S.Korea is quite in line with modern reality. I admit, my impressions come mostly from the pop culture, but most of what I have seen from S.Korea in the last decade has been heavy on over-the-top violence and perversion. This material is aimed at S.Korean audiences first, too. Gangster movies (with both gun and knife violence) are big, and even their comic-books explore subjects of sexual perversion and incest (not quite so much the pedophile material -- that's more from Japan).

Is it possible that there is a disconnect between different parts of the S.Korean culture, just as there is here in the States with more rural society rejecting the extremes of our culture? As I understand it there is a stark economic divide in S.Korea, moreso even than in the US, so the cultural divide may also be more pronounced. But even if that is the case, would that not likely place the corporate leaders of S.Korea in the wealthy metropolitan sector that both produces and consumes these kinds of products?

Wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but it is about S Korean culture and sort of tangentially relevant to our interests, so here seemed a reasonable place.

I caught this story on tv yesterday -

YouTube: Super wired South Korea seeks analogue comfort  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vQ6eXVYGvsA)

It's an interesting little peep into the consequences of the incredibly rapid and overwhelming recent immersion S Koreans have had into an ever more technological world - moreso than anywhere else on the planet.

Perhaps the most interesting point is the mention that 2/3 of S Koreans are now smartphone owners, and they spend 50% more time on their i-devices than they did two years ago. This struck a "hmm..." with me when I tallied it with two factors:-

First, the "realignment of company focus" at NCSoft, which I suspect concerns a shift towards mobile gaming. Remember that Nexon (a company very much interested in mobile gaming) bought 15% of stock directly from NCSoft CEO Taek-Jin Kim. It's not a merger, but it a sign of a co-operative venture.

Second, new laws were introduced into S Korea earlier this year to crack down on the amount of time children were allowed to play online games -
Korea's young gamers play all night, despite new law (http://www.geek.com/articles/games/koreas-young-gamers-play-all-night-despite-new-law-2012012/)

QuoteUnder the new law, platform owners and online game publishers are forced to block children under 16 from logging in during a six-hour window in the middle of the night. For technical reasons, only online games are affected, leaving other platforms available at all hours. The idea is to combat online game addiction.

One young Korean pointed out that the law has many workarounds and therefore ineffective. Players can either log in as their parents and continue to play late at night, or they can resort to other games unaffected by the system such as console and mobile games.

(emphasis mine)

I think I'm beginning to see a future pattern here, a move from online games (an area that's come under social and cultural fire in Korea) to mobile gaming...which while unrestricted at the moment, could well become a cultural hot potato itself soon enough too. In the meantime, could it be that one way to keep hold of the online market is perhaps by going to extremes? Persuading people to play...and therefore pay...with more overt ploys (*cough cough* I'm looking at you, Blade and Soul...) and desperation because that market's 'golden goose' potential is beginning to fade?

Not sure what (if any) conclusions to draw from all this, but as Sherlock Holmes once observed "It is a capital mistake to theorise in advance of the facts", so I feel if I find a fact lying around, it's only right I pick it up and pop it on the table with the rest :)

If that theory is right, Turjan, then I wonder how NCSoft would feel about somebody approaching them with a mobile ap game idea for CoH that required the base game to still be running for it to "work."

Quote from: Turjan on October 09, 2012, 02:32:38 PMI think I'm beginning to see a future pattern here, a move from online games (an area that's come under social and cultural fire in Korea) to mobile gaming...which while unrestricted at the moment, could well become a cultural hot potato itself soon enough too. In the meantime, could it be that one way to keep hold of the online market is perhaps by going to extremes? Persuading people to play...and therefore pay...with more overt ploys (*cough cough* I'm looking at you, Blade and Soul...) and desperation because that market's 'golden goose' potential is beginning to fade?

If it's true, it's one more logical reason for NC to NOT drop CoH. If the market they want to focus on could be legally shredded at any moment, putting all their eggs into that basket is pretty foolish.

More than likely though, the push to mobile will just encourage developers to produce an update where one can call up their avatar on a mobile device and flirt with it.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 04:19:35 AM
*nods*  Sounds like the target audience wouldn't care.  Roger that, consider that idea ditched.

I think it's still worth a shot.

Quote from: Felderburg on October 09, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
I think it's still worth a shot.

I think it's still worth waiting before making this move, make less edgy things first.

Let's see what things look like after Nov 2.

Anybody got any more ideas what can be done within the platform of kibun?  Gonna print and mail that first letter, since everyone seems good with it.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 01:09:11 AMAnybody got any more ideas what can be done within the platform of kibun?

Only a mostly not serious one at the moment: Invite Kim and his wife to your home for dinner, and hope the present they bring is the IP.

Quote from: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 01:09:11 AMGonna print and mail that first letter, since everyone seems good with it.

Go for it! ^_^_v

Quote from: Segev on October 09, 2012, 02:58:03 PM
If that theory is right, Turjan, then I wonder how NCSoft would feel about somebody approaching them with a mobile ap game idea for CoH that required the base game to still be running for it to "work."

Devious.

I like.

According to my extensive research on the ancient and noble Korean culture, they're terrified of electric fans. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death)  We should send them the scary Western-style fans without timers and threaten to keep sending them until they give CoH back.