Hello all. I was hoping to get some people's perspectives on how scrappers and brutes felt as compared to each other. I am running a homebrew RPG and a new player has requested to play as a brute. I never played one in the game so would appreciate a little sharing of experiences with them. I know about Fury, but need to put it into perspective compared to an AT that I know more about so I can design the new player character. Thank you for sharing.
Brutes thrived as the team's anchor, first guys to into the fight staying the focus of enemy attention for maximum fury.
As for scrappers, you could always rely on them to deal good damage regardless of fury levels.
In teams, brutes benefited more from resistance buffs due to their higher resistance cap, while scrappers benefited more from damage buffs due to their better base damage. Brutes were much better at keeping aggro, but when someone else already had that job (like a tanker or another brute) they tended to perform worse than scrappers.
This is from a more general RPG mechanics/concept standpoint since your post suggests that you aren't personally familiar with CoH's character roles and mechanics.
Brutes and Scrappers are primarily melee combatants. Brutes tended to be more durable than Scrappers and had an ability called Fury that made it so they did more damage the more enemies they were fighting and the longer they fought. Not that total damage output over an entire battle was necessarily all that different, but Scrappers tended to do more frontloaded single target damage than Brutes. In general concept Scrappers were more about using their attacks to take down single very tough targets quickly and Brutes were more about engaging groups, holding their attention, and defeating them en masse. Their roles were not always that clear cut depending on build and powersets, but that was the general concept. Brutes were somewhat notorious for combining damage that rivaled a Scrapper with durability that rivaled a Tanker. The major limitation of Brutes being that they needed to engage multiple enemies and constantly attack to keep their damage up due to their Fury dropping off if they didn't have multiple enemies attacking them.
Scrappers: High damage from the start of a fight, generally more focused on beating down single targets quickly. Tough enough to survive going toe to toe with most threats.
Brutes: Lower damage at the start of a fight but the more enemies and the longer they fight the greater their damage becomes. Every time they use an attack or get attacked their damage boost from Fury increases slightly. Their Fury boost also decreases whenever they're not attacking or being attacked. Somewhat tougher than a Scrapper at base, but can become durable enough to rival a Tanker. Good at getting and keeping enemy attention.
Tankers: Lower damage overall. Tougher than Scrappers and Brutes, can weather attacks that would put both on the floor. Very good at keeping enemy attention.
Hey, at least they're not asking to play a Night Widow or Crab Spider.
Scrapper: "THERE'S DUDES! KILL THEM!"
Brute: "WHERE'S THE NEXT DUDES? I NEED TO KILL THEM!"
Brutes are always looking forward. They want to keep their Fury high, so they are always looking one enemy ahead to make sure they're keeping a steady flow of damage boost.
Scrappers are always looking at what's in their face. Sometime's it's the floor because they don't look at what's happening TO THEMSELVES. This is called Scrapperlock.
("Brutelock" (which isn't a term that people use) is similar but it's based off "gotta get the Fury, gotta get the Fury, gotta get the Fury" like an addict, rather than "RAAAAAAGHGHGSFDKSDLFKSDN FSDF KILL DUDES *froths at the mouth*" of Scrapperlock.)
Quote from: Aggelakis on September 07, 2015, 06:11:07 PM
Scrapper: "THERE'S DUDES! KILL THEM!"
Brute: "WHERE'S THE NEXT DUDES? I NEED TO KILL THEM!"
Brutes are always looking forward. They want to keep their Fury high, so they are always looking one enemy ahead to make sure they're keeping a steady flow of damage boost.
Scrappers are always looking at what's in their face. Sometime's it's the floor because they don't look at what's happening TO THEMSELVES. This is called Scrapperlock.
("Brutelock" (which isn't a term that people use) is similar but it's based off "gotta get the Fury, gotta get the Fury, gotta get the Fury" like an addict, rather than "RAAAAAAGHGHGSFDKSDLFKSDN FSDF KILL DUDES *froths at the mouth*" of Scrapperlock.)
Adding to this.
With Scrapperlock: There isn't any thought running through your mind, just instinct and the joy of the damage you are inflicting. That's the reason you see them faceplant regularly since they've forgotten to check their health or even eat any vitamins (inspirations).
With Brutelock: There is a type of agony that sets in if you don't have a next group to attack. A nervousness and deflation while you watch as your Fury bar goes to nothing. That's the reason you see them running into the next group with a quarter health.
Quote from: Ankhammon on September 07, 2015, 06:28:03 PM
Adding to this.
With Scrapperlock: There isn't any thought running through your mind, just instinct and the joy of the damage you are inflicting. That's the reason you see them faceplant regularly since they've forgotten to check their health or even eat any vitamins (inspirations).
My version of Scrapperlock was more about focusing on defeating enemies to the point that i was paying minimal attention to anything outside of combat until there were no enemies left standing. Then again my Scrappers rarely faceplanted since i would pop inspirations as needed or as useful. If an ally was in danger i would switch targets to whatever was attacking them, but the fight would not end until there no enemies left. i usually played Brutes pretty much the same way.
Quote from: Nyx Nought Nothing on September 07, 2015, 06:40:48 PM
i usually played Brutes pretty much the same way.
Scrapperlock can happen on other archetypes. I played nearly all my characters in Scrapperlock (except Brutes, where I was jonesing for the Fury, and always let teammates plink off the last little bit of this group...GOTTA GO TO THE NEXT GROUP FULL FURY!)
Quote from: Aggelakis on September 07, 2015, 07:11:32 PM
Scrapperlock can happen on other archetypes. I played nearly all my characters in Scrapperlock (except Brutes, where I was jonesing for the Fury, and always let teammates plink off the last little bit of this group...GOTTA GO TO THE NEXT GROUP FULL FURY!)
Very True. Time/Ice scrapperlock with multiple ambushes and a team off leading someone to safety was a very fond memory for me. Had a scrapper with me in the room, but he didn't last long. After his faceplant, he just kept commenting on how many mobs I was dealing with.
Quote from: Hagis on September 07, 2015, 10:24:50 AM
Hello all. I was hoping to get some people's perspectives on how scrappers and brutes felt as compared to each other. I am running a homebrew RPG and a new player has requested to play as a brute. I never played one in the game so would appreciate a little sharing of experiences with them. I know about Fury, but need to put it into perspective compared to an AT that I know more about so I can design the new player character. Thank you for sharing.
The way I think of these two is that, the scrapper is a buzz saw. Whereas, brutes were more akin to being a super scrapper.
I played EVERY at aggressively. I didn't play favorites.
I charged in first and herded on blasters, timed flash fire so I'd land in the middle of the mob by the time the animation ended on controllers/doms and attacked a second group of 16 on my tank so long as it was too far away to attack before we killed the first 16.
I prefer brutes due to higher resistance caps and that cheating fury bar with temp powers (ever hit something with the baseball bat craft able temp power while near the damage cap?)
Made a Kin/wp scrapper that was just non stop animating awesomeness though.
In my mind scrappers were for big guys, but brutes were for mobs of LTs and minions where a team made you a boss farmer. I played CoX for friends and bar room brawls and brutes fed that need.
Thank you for your input, all. I consider myself a casual player, going back to just around issue 4. Had three lvl 50s and probably a dozen or so alts but very little experience with villain ATs. Definitely appreciate the insight, as I needed to craft some game mechanics to give the brute a flavor that is distinguishable from the two scrappers and two tankers already in the party. With what you gave me here, I think I can flesh out something that will do just that. Again, thank you all.
Scrappers rule
Brutes drool
Ha Ha... get it?
Ugh.
My standard response..
Scrappers suck..
If given the choice to play a scrapper or brute I will play a brute every single time and twice on Sundays..
Quote from: Hagis on September 07, 2015, 10:24:50 AM
Hello all. I was hoping to get some people's perspectives on how scrappers and brutes felt as compared to each other. I am running a homebrew RPG and a new player has requested to play as a brute. I never played one in the game so would appreciate a little sharing of experiences with them. I know about Fury, but need to put it into perspective compared to an AT that I know more about so I can design the new player character. Thank you for sharing.
Scrappers were like a fighter jet on patrol. As soon as a target popped up, they would go and be at full combat potential from the start. But without support they could easily get in over their heads if the target wasn't one they could cope with on their own.
Brutes were like a fighter jet on deck of a carrier. When a target popped up, they had to launch, get up to combat altitude and THEN they could go at it. But they had some support from being on a carrier, so could survive the climb to full combat potential.
As to how they actually felt when played, I personally liked scrappers. You went from stationary to kicking arse as fast as you could close on the target. Brutes had a certain <smash!> feel to them once you got rolling, but getting there could be irritating at times. Both benefited from support, it's hard to say which benefited more. Scrappers were already tough by the standards of most AT's, Brutes could end up tougher. Brutes were better at holding aggro than scrappers as they were a sort of scrapper/tank hybrid, but neither could hold aggro like a well specced tank.
In the end, to me, a fully buffed crit from a scrapper's high damage power (Golden Dragonfly on my most played Scrapper) just *felt* better than 'hohum, another high damage hit' from KO Blow on my most played Brute. Plus, I reckon could still rotate my usual attack chain on my main scrapper from memory, whereas I couldn't easily do that for any of my brutes.
(the scrapper was 7, 0, Tab, F, 6, 4, 5, 2, 1, Alt+1, 4, 3, 2... to start and then improvise further mayhem, when starting from outside combat with no aggro :) )
Quote from: Canine on September 10, 2015, 08:31:48 PM
Scrappers were like a fighter jet on patrol. As soon as a target popped up, they would go and be at full combat potential from the start. But without support they could easily get in over their heads if the target wasn't one they could cope with on their own.
Brutes were like a fighter jet on deck of a carrier. When a target popped up, they had to launch, get up to combat altitude and THEN they could go at it. But they had some support from being on a carrier, so could survive the climb to full combat potential.
As to how they actually felt when played, I personally liked scrappers. You went from stationary to kicking arse as fast as you could close on the target. Brutes had a certain <smash!> feel to them once you got rolling, but getting there could be irritating at times. Both benefited from support, it's hard to say which benefited more. Scrappers were already tough by the standards of most AT's, Brutes could end up tougher. Brutes were better at holding aggro than scrappers as they were a sort of scrapper/tank hybrid, but neither could hold aggro like a well specced tank.
In the end, to me, a fully buffed crit from a scrapper's high damage power (Golden Dragonfly on my most played Scrapper) just *felt* better than 'hohum, another high damage hit' from KO Blow on my most played Brute. Plus, I reckon could still rotate my usual attack chain on my main scrapper from memory, whereas I couldn't easily do that for any of my brutes.
(the scrapper was 7, 0, Tab, F, 6, 4, 5, 2, 1, Alt+1, 4, 3, 2... to start and then improvise further mayhem, when starting from outside combat with no aggro :) )
This ^^^^On fast moving teams scrappers were better.By the time brutes built up some fury the team was moving on.Scrappers did't have to wait to get better.
Quote from: worldweary on September 10, 2015, 10:48:28 PM
This ^^^^On fast moving teams scrappers were better.By the time brutes built up some fury the team was moving on.Scrappers did't have to wait to get better.
That's what Shadow Drain was for on my Electrical Armor/Dark Melee Brute. ;)
Quote from: worldweary on September 10, 2015, 10:48:28 PM
This ^^^^On fast moving teams scrappers were better.By the time brutes built up some fury the team was moving on.Scrappers did't have to wait to get better.
Not sure what game you were playing, but Brutes were good right out the gate, then got better by adding dudes. Same as Scrappers. :)
Main difference was that with a Scrapper, you could take a few seconds to look at the AV in the eye and say "You're soooo gonna die (*ahem* *You're soo gonna be arrested*)" while if you tried same thing on a Brute, the only thing he would say is "Poop, there goes my Fury bar".
I always saw scrappers as a class that brought balance to the team, whether getting rid of the boss or quick jumping out of the thick to get rid of some unwanted aggro on the squishier chars, when not under the effects of scrapperlock, of course... ;D
Brutes always made me feel like a crack addict running from street corner to street corner begging for their next high. Hated chasing that fury bar. Tanks and scrappers we more fun to me.
I enjoyed my Scrappers, especially at launch. But after I returned Brutes were just totally unstoppable. I totally lucked into playing Electrical Armor/Dark Melee and he was even more amazingly non-stop than my beloved, first Dark Melee/Invulnerability Scrapper.
Quote from: Nightmarer on September 11, 2015, 12:08:08 PM
I always saw scrappers as a class that brought balance to the team, whether getting rid of the boss or quick jumping out of the thick to get rid of some unwanted aggro on the squishier chars, when not under the effects of scrapperlock, of course... ;D
Being able to jump out of a melee, scrag a mob that's threatening a squishy and then jump straight back in without dragging a load of aggro onto the squishies due to lesser aggro holding on Scrappers was an underrated ability.
Of course, this was only likely to happen on the trained 'team scrapper' which could be a rare breed... The far more common 'Feral scrapper' wouldn't care what was happening to the rest of the team once the scrapperlock descended.
Some have said that Brutes held aggro better, and that's true, and the reason why was two-fold: they automatically Taunted every target they hit (similar to Tankers, but without the AoE), and they had a Taunt Aura power in their secondary (exactly like Tankers).
Scrappers had a harder time keeping aggro. They had nothing to keep enemies from running away, and their Taunt-like power (Confront) had a chance of missing.
In fact, that was the main reason I always preferred Brutes to Scrappers. I never had to chase anyone down with a Brute, but I did with a Scrapper.
Their powerset choices were also slightly different. Scrappers didn't have access to Super Strength, Stone Melee, or Stone Armor. (Before Issue 21, Brutes didn't have access to Katana, Broad Sword, or Regeneration; while Scrappers didn't have Battle Axe, War Mace, or Energy Aura)
Quote from: Thunder Glove on September 12, 2015, 04:37:58 PM
... and they had a Taunt Aura power in their secondary (exactly like Tankers).
So did several Scrapper secondaries. Willpower, Shield Defence, Invulnerability are the three I recall offhand. Brutes had more taunt aura options (and pokevoke on melee hits as you mentioned), as IIRC, some secondary powers were slottable for taunt on brutes, but not scrappers. But that's only a vague memory now, and I may be wrong.
I always preferred playing scrappers because they were good to go from the first moment of the fight to the last - I absolutely hated having to build up that fury bar.
The only brute I really enjoyed was my SS/Fire farmer, and he was only at his best in the specialized farming missions.
I didn't play much of either AT, unfortunately. I will say, that for me, because my scrapper was a Dual Blades, my scrapper lock was less about a general "gotta get 'em all!" mentality and more about "gotta hit the next power for my combo!" sort of thing.
Browsing old topics...
In case anybody is curious about numbers, brutes have the lowest base damage of all the melee AT's, but their fury bar lets them get up to 300% base damage. So with that in mind, (Not including enhancements) a Brute must stay at 30% Fury to have the same base damage as a Scrapper. Scrappers land critical hits though, so for a Brute to have the same damage as a Scrapper's crits, 90% Fury. So there's still 10% left for "higher damage" but that's not accurate either.
Even with the same enhancements, Fury doesn't modify the damage post-enhancements, it's a % buff to the base power damage, so having a damage enhancement on a Brute power vs a Scrapper power, the Scrapper will get even more damage increase than the brute, so the more enhanced a power is, the more fury the brute would need to match the Scrapper's damage, until it's not even comparable late game, especially with Incarnate stuff.
Of course, they do have higher health and higher caps and taunting mechanics, but still not AS GOOD as a Tanker. Everything else people have said is true, too, of course, but I prefer Scrappers over Brutes personally. Then again, I would rather play a Tanker than a Brute too for that matter. Brutes are fantastic farmers, I had one myself! But on a team I'd prefer either a Tanker or Scrapper. Simply for the fact that while a Brute can fill the role as a Tanker, he can't hold aggro as well. A good blaster will pull aggro off instantly, even with a competent Brute. A Tanker will hold aggro better, and the damage isn't HORRIBLE. A Tanker actually has higher base damage than a Brute, even. It gets overshadowed by Fury, of course, but the gap isn't THAT big, and I found having enough damage on the team isn't typically the issue.
I know nobody at this point was really wondering anymore, but I thought I'd throw some number game analysis at it.