Titan Network
Community => Task Force Hail Mary => Topic started by: Thunder Glove on October 05, 2013, 04:47:23 PM
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This is 50/50 hindsight, of course, but it occurs to me now that the pitches should probably have included a suggestion to get back to us directly - not because we're directly involved in the actual negotiations, but so we'd know to stop sending out pitches to other companies. (I'm sure that Disney or Google would definitely not have wanted us to continue sending them out if they had decided to try it)
That said, of course.... is TFHM over? The pitch to Google was sent out months ago, and despite saying they still have many targets lined up, the heads of this endeavor - particularly VV, who hasn't been here in months, and Rae, who seems to have moved on to being MWM's press head - haven't said who they're going after next, or (as far as I'm aware) crafted any new pitches.
If it's done, I can understand why (particularly VV's reasons), but I'd like to know.
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"well the person they know that know somebody that know some body that know somebody heard something that may be or may not be true but he cant say legally because the person that he know that know somebody that know somebody may get sued and it can years for these deals to work." :p
In reality I think, those pitches didn't do anything along time ago. And I think the meaning of lined up was mostly just any old random corporation they could think of. It was a nice noble try especially knowing it long shot from the get go, but it's probably didnt work. Just that they don't want to admit it. The most feared sentences around these forums for TFHM are "I dont know" and "It didn't work."
Plus do we really want to go through the corporate limbo again many of these companies they pitched too are far worse and far colder than NCSOFT could ever aspire to be. Only difference is that they are American companies and over all American corporations are kings of IP/trademark squatting. Think about all the products that came and gone throughout the industries and ever wondered, say why don't someone bring that back? No one can because the company that put it on ice isn't selling nor do they plan on bringing it back.
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They said many times that big corporations are extremely slow at this kind of things and it's almost a year after CoH was closed. At this stage, I think the spiritual projects as well as the project led by SCoRE will be finished much faster than if the game caught any interest by any big company.
All in all, it's a great effort by the people doing it and I'm personally very thankful they are taking the necessary time to do it but at the time being, I personally feel that the ongoing options will be faster. Maybe the only kind of company who could move things quick if they got interested in would be a gaming company or a developing studio, but they are also the most unlikely companies NCSoft would sell the IP to imho.-
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Remember, it hasn't even been a full year yet--though I'll admit we're getting close to the one year mark. I am hoping there is yet more to come from TF Hail Mary! If nothing else than because we fans don't have our game back. The community here still wants the City. Yeah, we were warned that corporate decisions especially when pitched ideas from the outside can take a long time. I still anticipate our fan efforts prevailing but expected that it might take more than a few months unless we happened to get super lucky (always a possibility). Focusing on next steps and/or where to direct efforts now is what makes sense to me. I'd really love to see City of Heroes back with all of the excellent community/communities! Those were excellent, fun times! /em holdtorch
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I think the fact that so many former Paragon Studios employees have financially backed (and are openly tweeting about) the City of Titans project speaks volumes. It's really all we have now besides SCoRE or however they abbreviate it. :)
Not that I'm not really happy there are those two things going on; I totally am. And if you think about it, the world's first open-source MMO is a groundbreaking thing. I am so proud of the CoH community for even attempting it! Not to mention that SCoRE has been silently plugging away for a year now as well.
I think Task Force Hail Mary is no more, but luckily, this community is still here and they are still individually a part of that. And that's all we really need. If anyone wants to do anything to further support any CoH causes, they should be helping either of those projects get off the ground.
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Check this thread http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9171.msg132332.html#msg132332
Answers everything nicely.
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TFHM is over? This is just too sad.
*sigh* I know how much people had worked hard on this but I wish they've warned us before they left us hanging. I was really hoping for it all to work out...well, there goes another hope down the drain :(
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I don't know that TFHM is over, so much, as perhaps taking a break while attention is focused on kickstarter and City of Titans (The Phoenix Project). I don't see us giving up on getting our City back! /em holdtorch
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Check this thread http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9171.msg132332.html#msg132332
Answers everything nicely.
Read this thread! TFHM is not over!
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Here's what I am wondering... you have $10 million to spend. On the one hand you have CoH, which is quite old and at least parts of it are essentially code frozen. You'd have to assemble a very specific team to continue work on it, and that's probably neither simple or cheap.
OR... you can throw $8 million at CoT and see if you can buy it. You get the same fans either way, and you have a new engine with lots of possibilities. You can probably keep the team you have already (although they all just got a share of that $8 million and are busy booking vacations), but if not you can bring in a new team at a reasonable level.
I'm just thinking if I'm Googney (or Disnoogle?) I might just sit back and watch the KS. Maybe MWM won't sell at any price, and I sorta hope that's the case, but if someone flashed millions at me it sure would be tempting.
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Maybe MWM won't sell at any price,
Sound very familiar except it was about a different company.
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As excited as I am about CoT (and VO and, yes, even HaV), I really want CoH back.
See, CoH already exists. It already has classes and powersets and eight years worth of content to play through, even if nothing new ever gets added again, and I know it can run on my current computer because that's what I was running it on. All someone has to do is set up the servers and flip a switch, and the game is back.
With CoT and the other projects, we're talking about something that might be in a playable form in two or three years, at which point it will have very little content (most likely with all the classes not even released) and will probably require a much better computer than the one I have, and I don't have the money to just go out and buy a new computer.
So there's an excitement with the Plan Z projects, but it's muted. Until they're open, and I'm logged in and playing them (at full speed, not the laggy crashy mess that Champions Online is), I can't get as excited about them as I would be about the revival of CoH.
I really wanted and still want TFHM to work.
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Yes, I think it's time to announce TFHM as officially dead and buried. It was, in fact, a complete failure and CoH as we knew it will stay dead; we will not succeed in persuading anyone to purchase it.
Which is too bad, as I participated in it, wrote dozens of letters, and got my friends in on it as well. But it was all for nothing. They doubtless circular-filed our letters and promptly forgot all about them. It's over.
At this point, it's time to look forward to City of Titans and whatever SCoRE will come up with. CoH as we knew it is dead forever - it will not be revived.
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Yes, I think it's time to announce TFHM as officially dead and buried. It was, in fact, a complete failure and CoH as we knew it will stay dead; we will not succeed in persuading anyone to purchase it.
Which is too bad, as I participated in it, wrote dozens of letters, and got my friends in on it as well. But it was all for nothing. They doubtless circular-filed our letters and promptly forgot all about them. It's over.
At this point, it's time to look forward to City of Titans and whatever SCoRE will come up with. CoH as we knew it is dead forever - it will not be revived.
Yeah even if revived, it probably wont be the same anyways. Still probably have to update that engine to be competitive in the market, game or not it's still business. Then, find new devs, which more than likely have a completely different method and chemistry that the old dev team had, and even different view on the direction of the game. Not to mention probably have to learn and untangle a lot of messy code. While mitt hands were bearable for old COX players, it probably wont fly too well if they plan on bringing in profits and new gamers. And lastly they probably would make chances to try to increase profits better than before. Meaning there probably will be changes to reach a wider audience that wasn't there in game before, that may be standard in other games that are frowned upon in the classic COX community, but brings in more people.
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If they'd just left the darn thing in maintenance mode for us, we would have avoided all this. If they'd actually let them finish I24 (and iron out the bugs for a bit) and then announced that it was going into maintenance mode, a lot of us would have been pretty happy with that. With just that, I'd have faithfully subscribed for the rest of my life - I was always a VIP subscriber for 4.5 years and had no plans to ever not be.
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If they'd just left the darn thing in maintenance mode for us, we would have avoided all this. If they'd actually let them finish I24 (and iron out the bugs for a bit) and then announced that it was going into maintenance mode, a lot of us would have been pretty happy with that. With just that, I'd have faithfully subscribed for the rest of my life - I was always a VIP subscriber for 4.5 years and had no plans to ever not be.
true but even maintenance mode cost money.
One, people will eventually leave but not many people would join a game in maintenance mode. Still have to pay some sort of tech support for bugs that pop up, servers (which I don't think cost much so it may be miniscule in the grand scheme of things), then still have to have moderators and over all still have to somewhat run the game.
And people will still be pissed either way saying it was dirty of them to let the devs release i24 and dump them like a bad habit. They still would have been pegged evil corporation and many still would have vowed to give NCSOFT another cent which means even less players on top of those that jump ship because maintenance mode means death shakes for a game. Which probably means it would barely even be worth running in maintenance mode in the long run.
But I think it would have been less hate if they did the maintenance mode thing, but even then, it's just staving off the inevitable that eventually it will close and whether they did it then or 3 years from then, the result would have been the same. So why not get out now and get it over with before running into the red?
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Because if I'd had even another 6 months I could have recorded much, much more of the content for archival purposes. I recorded fairly intensively for 3 months, and I still curse how much I could not get as I just ran out of time.
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Because if I'd had even another 6 months I could have recorded much, much more of the content for archival purposes. I recorded fairly intensively for 3 months, and I still curse how much I could not get as I just ran out of time.
Those three months did seem to fly by.
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staving off the inevitable
Stave it off, one two three. And now you can count to three.
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I would have rather NCSoft said this: "I24 will be the last issue. At that point, CoX will go into maintenance mode for one year."
I would have still not liked CoX closing, however it would have been more respectful of the players to allow a year after I24 than what actually happened.
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Check this thread http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9171.msg132332.html#msg132332
Answers everything nicely.
Kinda hard for me to believe. IF they really shut the game down due to legal issue it would of been immediate and not 3 months later. Going to read more... hmm. Oh its a JC thread - Joshex Conspiracy <3
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While mitt hands were bearable for old COX players, it probably wont fly too well if they plan on bringing in profits and new gamers. And lastly they probably would make chances to try to increase profits better than before. Meaning there probably will be changes to reach a wider audience that wasn't there in game before, that may be standard in other games that are frowned upon in the classic COX community, but brings in more people.
I personally think that's the biggest strength of CoH. See, latest big AAA MMO games are targetting the fabled "casual player" and failing miserably, being SWTOR arguably the biggest example... well, I don't think any MMO game can get more casual than CoH, you get to accomplish stuff whether you log for 30 min or for 30 hours and yet it went unnoticed because it had no marketing whatsoever.
It's understandable that anyone investing money will try to get the money back plus profits and here there's a golden opportunity to cater for the casual player aka the golden jackpot and still goes unnoticed probably because everyone wants to get the casual player's attention by copying the endgame raiding model and making it stupidly easy, which does not please neither casual nor hardcore gamers.
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If any potential buyer is interested in CoH, either from TFHM or otherwise, I think the current Kickstarter for City of Titans would only fuel their interest. The funding of the game coming so quickly shows just how much interest is still out there for CoH and how many people are prepared to back up that interest with cash. Any buyers could have been scared that the player base had moved on, but the Kickstarter shows that there is still a market.
Obviously the other side is that NCSoft may still be unwilling to sell or may even ask for more. But I think City of Titans doing well could only help the chances for TFHM type activities.
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It's understandable that anyone investing money will try to get the money back plus profits and here there's a golden opportunity to cater for the casual player aka the golden jackpot and still goes unnoticed probably because everyone wants to get the casual player's attention by copying the endgame raiding model and making it stupidly easy, which does not please neither casual nor hardcore gamers.
indeed
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Yes, I think it's time to announce TFHM as officially dead and buried.
Hello? http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9171.msg132332.html#msg132332
It's been linked 3 times now. ;)
None the less, at this point I am more over looking forward to MWM's City of Titans. It's a project that is completely funded, and will come out. That's something we can all be assured of (unless something catastrophic would happen). However, when it comes to City of Heroes, I can only say I hope that it's purchased and opened again at some point. It just doesn't seem right.
Also, I've always wanted a sequel to City of Heroes more than I wanted to continue playing the original since around 2010. Some might consider this as 'bad,' but it's the truth for me. That's why City's closure really hit me hard. I was sure there wouldn't be another game created that was as fun as it that I would enjoy again in my life.
But this community sure pulled through so far with MWM and it's City of Titans!
I consider City of Titans to fill the role of a 'City of Heroes sequel' so far. It's not direct, but it looks darn close enough for me. I'll have to wait and see how close it is to the original in spirit. City of Heroes just gave this certain 'feel' of gameplay that kept me addicted; I can only hope the spiritual successors follow suit.
Anyway, back on track, don't say TFHM is dead unless we know for sure. We're left out of business practice, so assuming it's 'dead' isn't the right thing to do at the moment, until explicitly stated. Sure we aren't contributing to any company's decisions at the moment, but that doesn't mean one of the companies we have contacted isn't working on something.
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...City of Titans. It's a project that is completely funded, and will come out. That's something we can all be assured of (unless something catastrophic would happen).
I wish that project well, but it is far from completely funded. The Kickstarter is not the complete development nut and actually, even at the KS current funding level, likely only 1/60th what it will take to ensure a 3 year development frame into its intended state. We hope it will come out and not meet misfortune.
My biggest concern is that in its volunteer state, burnout and turnover would (due to people having real lives and families and other jobs) cause the development time frame to extended beyond three years or longer and by that time be irrelevant to the market or surpassed by a "professional" studio.
TFHM still has juice. You'll see.
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I wish that project well, but it is far from completely funded. The Kickstarter is not the complete development nut and actually, even at the KS current funding level, likely only 1/60th what it will take to ensure a 3 year development frame into its intended state. We hope it will come out and not meet misfortune.
My biggest concern is that in its volunteer state, burnout and turnover would (due to people having real lives and families and other jobs) cause the development time frame to extended beyond three years or longer and by that time be irrelevant to the market or surpassed by a "professional" studio.
TFHM still has juice. You'll see.
Yeah, I don't doubt the issues that MWM faces with their studios, nor their KS goal being a fraction of what they needed to start out. I'm just glad that they were successfully funded so far. We can at least know it will be in development, but it will take a while for them to complete the game, especially in their volunteer state.
I basically meant that their KS project is completely funded. The project can start with a good step forward. MMO's take a ton of money to be complete, I know that.
And yes, TFHM is very much still an option. I'm waiting to see what it will do next; it's just that I'm also excited to know that we have a successfully started spiritual sequel in the works!
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I wish that project well, but it is far from completely funded. The Kickstarter is not the complete development nut and actually, even at the KS current funding level, likely only 1/60th what it will take to ensure a 3 year development frame into its intended state. We hope it will come out and not meet misfortune.
If by that you mean it would take about 20 million dollars to fund a three year development plan, I should point out that would only be true if Missing Worlds Media was structured like a large commercial studio, with most of the costs going to salary and benefits, rent and equipment leases, and other corporate expenditures that Missing Worlds doesn't have. A community development project only needs to fund the cost of development tools the developers need and don't possess, and other much smaller project costs.
Also, a substantial amount of time developing an MMO like City of Heroes is spent in two endeavours: first in design iteration; every MMO beta I've seen has written and rewritten and rewritten the design of how the game works. Second in developing the game engine. MWM is using off the shelf engine code and isn't really writing their own engine from scratch. And they already have a basic blueprint for the game: they have City of Heroes itself as a reference point. So I believe its reasonable to believe that an 18 month cycle is a more appropriate estimate than a three year one, with the caveat that volunteer efforts timetables are more difficult to predict.
I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially. Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.
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I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially. Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.
I'd feel a lot better if you were a part of MWM, but an endorsement from someone as sharp as yourself goes a long way with me.
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I'd feel a lot better if you were a part of MWM, but an endorsement from someone as sharp as yourself goes a long way with me.
I should emphasize that an endorsement from me in this case is not a statement of my belief that success is certain, but rather that the potential benefit is worth the risk. Everyone must make their own decision when it comes to pledging funds for any Kickstarter project, none of which offer a guarantee of success.
To me, City of Heroes was not just a game. It was a player community, it was a constellation of in-game communities, it was a complex web of player-developer interactions. It was a unique thing I honestly don't see anywhere else. I'm not naive enough to think it can ever be exactly as it was, but I believe any legitimate attempt to revive that environment is worth supporting, at least for me.
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I'd feel a lot better if you were a part of MWM, but an endorsement from someone as sharp as yourself goes a long way with me.
I'm giving them my support and you should to ;) Think about all those fun times we had together and how we aren't having them now :(
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I'm giving them my support and you should to ;) Think about all those fun times we had together and how we aren't having them now :(
I agree. I'm supporting all three of them. CoT, VO, and HaV (Whenever HaV starts accepting funds I'll do that too). I hope to enjoy the feeling of seeing all of those heroes everywhere. All those Villains plotting their next scheme. I imagine in my mind how cool it would be to at least at some point or another, see all of you in all three worlds!
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... Second in developing the game engine. MWM is using off the shelf engine code and isn't really writing their own engine from scratch. ...
I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially. Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.
Full Disclosure: I am also a Kickstarter supporter of the project.
I believe MWM has a very good chance of delivering a character creator. But while they are not writing their own engine from scratch, they ARE writing their own MMO from scratch because their engine doesn't include MMO functionality and they are intending to develop it themselves. That makes me remarkably less sanguine about their chances.
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If by that you mean it would take about 20 million dollars to fund a three year development plan, I should point out that would only be true if Missing Worlds Media was structured like a large commercial studio, with most of the costs going to salary and benefits, rent and equipment leases, and other corporate expenditures that Missing Worlds doesn't have. A community development project only needs to fund the cost of development tools the developers need and don't possess, and other much smaller project costs.
Also, a substantial amount of time developing an MMO like City of Heroes is spent in two endeavours: first in design iteration; every MMO beta I've seen has written and rewritten and rewritten the design of how the game works. Second in developing the game engine. MWM is using off the shelf engine code and isn't really writing their own engine from scratch. And they already have a basic blueprint for the game: they have City of Heroes itself as a reference point. So I believe its reasonable to believe that an 18 month cycle is a more appropriate estimate than a three year one, with the caveat that volunteer efforts timetables are more difficult to predict.
I still don't think MWM is a *certainty* of course, but I believe it has a very, very good chance of delivering *something*, and probably something worth supporting at least initially. Full disclosure: I am a Kickstarter supporter of the project.
The attitude that "there isn't enough money to do it" is very common among established development channels, far beyond even game development. How many people in 1990 proclaimed that a Server Operating System required tens of millions and needed a dedicated team of 100? Today a large portion of the servers out there run an operating system created by a bunch of volunteers, initially started by a student in Finland. How many people proclaimed that 3d printers required tens of millions and needed dozens of engineers? Now I can pick up a dozen 3d printers, again, designed by a bunch of volunteers. And an MMO is a tinker toy compared to the kinds of tasks these systems handle.
Whenever I hear "you need xyz amount and abc number of developers" I smile, because it tells me that the person speaking has stuck themselves in a box.
I would even point out that we would not be the first MMO to be handled by volunteers. That distinction belongs to The Saga of Ryzom, now 9 years running, 7 of which after its original developer went bankrupt, with its assets now under an open source license.
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The attitude that "there isn't enough money to do it" is very common among established development channels, far beyond even game development. How many people in 1990 proclaimed that a Server Operating System required tens of millions and needed a dedicated team of 100? Today a large portion of the servers out there run an operating system created by a bunch of volunteers, initially started by a student in Finland. How many people proclaimed that 3d printers required tens of millions and needed dozens of engineers? Now I can pick up a dozen 3d printers, again, designed by a bunch of volunteers. And an MMO is a tinker toy compared to the kinds of tasks these systems handle.
Whenever I hear "you need xyz amount and abc number of developers" I smile, because it tells me that the person speaking has stuck themselves in a box.
Yup but don't forget the tons that didn't make it before that one finally did get through. And not everyone even in today world can get up and build a 3d printer out of the blue in a successful manner.
But luckily, MWM isn't first non-professional game being made even in the MMO world, so they have lot of material of what worked what didn't work and what could possibly work now that didn't work then to go by, if they choose to heed to it.
A lot of stuff like this fail due to over confidence and not being honest with the weaknesses. Many figure they know a little about it and thus, their skill are infallible and unquestionable expert level when in reality, there are holes in their skills. Now holes in skills usually is not a killer as long as the builders are honest with themselves to know they are not perfect or near perfect and still can have open mind to learn. Those the latter type that isn't afraid to admit mistakes, know they are not perfect, take responsibility for the good AND bad, and know their weakness and know their strengths and took a look at it in a honest non egotistical view usually are the ones that end up finding the greatest success. Because those types can even turn their weakness into strength but there isnt any way to turn a weakness into strength if the fear of admitting there are weakness is present and or the presence of weakness is denied.
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Yup but don't forget the tons that didn't make it before that one finally did get through. And not everyone even in today world can get up and build a 3d printer out of the blue in a successful manner.
Of course. I mention from time to time that I was one of the first developers for Gentoo Linux. What I also mention is that it was one of 9 different Linux distributions I helped out with.
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Of course. I mention from time to time that I was one of the first developers for Gentoo Linux. What I also mention is that it was one of 9 different Linux distributions I helped out with.
Very cool! :)
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Very cool! :)
I was a kernel builder. I knew tricks to get every oz of performance out of the pre-2.2 Linux kernel. So people who wanted a high-performance kernel, I wound up helping.
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Yes, I think it's time to announce TFHM as officially dead and buried.
That's a shame. Guess we'll just throw out the pitch Quinch has been working on, then... :-)
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That's a shame. Guess we'll just throw out the pitch Quinch has been working on, then... :-)
Woohoo. That's what I was hoping to hear :D
Edit: er, that you're working on another pitch, not that you're throwing it out. DON'T THROW IT OUT.
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That's a shame. Guess we'll just throw out the pitch Quinch has been working on, then... :-)
Keep up the pressure!
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That's a shame. Guess we'll just throw out the pitch Quinch has been working on, then... :-)
If you're still trying, I won't say that's a bad thing (at all), but in a year, we've heard not one thing about about the slightest response to our efforts, and VV, who was a big part of that as I recall, is gone and at this point probably not coming back. When there's a total lack of a pulse it's a bit difficult to keep hoping the patient is still alive; to the best of my knowledge neither Disney nor Google even noticed all of our efforts. Perhaps one of the smaller studios will bother to speak to us, one of these years, but will they have pockets deep enough to try to pry the game from NCSoft's bony grasp?
At this point, I'm just trying to be realistic - there seems to have been absolutely zero returns here so far. At present, City of Titans and SCoRE are the only projects that seem to be actually making progress and showing returns.
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If you're still trying, I won't say that's a bad thing (at all), but in a year, we've heard not one thing about about the slightest response to our efforts, and VV, who was a big part of that as I recall, is gone and at this point probably not coming back. When there's a total lack of a pulse it's a bit difficult to keep hoping the patient is still alive; to the best of my knowledge neither Disney nor Google even noticed all of our efforts. Perhaps one of the smaller studios will bother to speak to us, one of these years, but would they have pockets deep enough to try to pry the game from NCSoft's bony grasp?
At this point, I'm just trying to be realistic - there seems to have been absolutely zero returns here so far.
Yeah even after nearly a year, even in the slowest turtle based prior to internet communication and telephone business, after a few months, there is usually at least the slightest expression of interest or not and by year they decided usually if they will pursue or not. Here after a year, from what it seems, there haven't even been word on progress of the first step.
Yes the process itself takes a while but usually expression of interest faster than that. Look, within a few months, according those "inside sources" They went from putting together a proposal to almost needing a few last signatures in a business deal within a matter of a couple of months. Unless they knew about the close down plan for at least a year prior (but that is another issues another time). And now it's expected to believe that within a year, major corporation that supposedly people have inside information to the person that make those decisions on buying stuff in the name of Google and Disney, cant decide whether or not they are even interested or not within a year time, the first step? You know, the way it looks, it looks like they are not interested or the proposal didn't get to the right people and that insider information stuff was a load of crap. Knowing someone that work for google or Disney doesn't mean insider information. That mean people know someone that work for google or Disney. Do they actually know the guy the person or persons, directly face to face by name friendly basis of the guy that decides what to buy or not?
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Let me try and understand where you are coming from, you believe that if we a non-official bunch of players request a company to look at a game now closed and explain that it was profitable and all with very little advertising ever done - that they will find the desire to contact us to tell us what plans they are making?
Why would they contact us? They MIGHT say thank you for the interest in our company and we hope you continue to enjoy our games. That is all I would expect. Businesses don't go public until the deal is over. I have put a timeline that was generous in how long it takes to get things done in a big company.
Where I work we laid out the plans to upgrade all local servers 18 months ago. Then 8 months later HP shipped all the hardware out (several hundred servers). I recieved my server and 2 months later was told to install it and that the load would follow shortly. I installed the server in the rack and 30 days later I got the load instructions. I loaded it and now have been waiting a week for the remote checkout and the pushing of the supplemental software (like the UPS management software).
It takes TIME. They don't move quickly and I am sorry that your experience is apparently as a member of the public and not as a company tech. Buying the game after researching what hardware and bandwidth would be required to host it and all other due diligence required. These are not fly-by-night companies that have been contacted but companies selected because of their success.
1. Legal would have to research the case settlement with Marvel and possibly get permission for the details to be given.
2. Hardware would have to reseach server farm requirements and bandwidth needed.
3. server software recommended and other running costs. (Electricity, SANand what else is needed.
I can think of a huge list of stuff I would do if I won the lottery and put the game back in service. Let's say I get a windfall and had $100 million to get the game going. I can't see how I could get it up in less than 4-6 months and do it right. I just think the 12 month time period is not seriously an issue.
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I hear that, but if we hear nothing and know nothing, we have no idea if they're completely ignoring us or not. In the absence of any information to the contrary, I don't see how we could conclude they're doing anything about it, or even if the pitches and our mountains of letters are still buried the mailroom.
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Let me try and understand where you are coming from, you believe that if we a non-official bunch of players request a company to look at a game now closed and explain that it was profitable and all with very little advertising ever done - that they will find the desire to contact us to tell us what plans they are making?
Why would they contact us? They MIGHT say thank you for the interest in our company and we hope you continue to enjoy our games. That is all I would expect. Businesses don't go public until the deal is over. I have put a timeline that was generous in how long it takes to get things done in a big company.
Where I work we laid out the plans to upgrade all local servers 18 months ago. Then 8 months later HP shipped all the hardware out (several hundred servers). I recieved my server and 2 months later was told to install it and that the load would follow shortly. I installed the server in the rack and 30 days later I got the load instructions. I loaded it and now have been waiting a week for the remote checkout and the pushing of the supplemental software (like the UPS management software).
It takes TIME. They don't move quickly and I am sorry that your experience is apparently as a member of the public and not as a company tech. Buying the game after researching what hardware and bandwidth would be required to host it and all other due diligence required. These are not fly-by-night companies that have been contacted but companies selected because of their success.
1. Legal would have to research the case settlement with Marvel and possibly get permission for the details to be given.
2. Hardware would have to reseach server farm requirements and bandwidth needed.
3. server software recommended and other running costs. (Electricity, SANand what else is needed.
I can think of a huge list of stuff I would do if I won the lottery and put the game back in service. Let's say I get a windfall and had $100 million to get the game going. I can't see how I could get it up in less than 4-6 months and do it right. I just think the 12 month time period is not seriously an issue.
No when a group of non-official people claim they have inside information on the inner workings of a major corporation after a year there would be enough of an update without giving up "Legal infor." and yet cant even answer the simple question of "Are they still going for it or not" or what is going on.
And you laid out a time line of stuff that happened. Those could be potential updates, if someone actually had inside information like they said they did. Which more and more it seems dubious beyond the insider being a normal employee for the company. And Even in the examples you used, within 12 months stuff happened. It didn't take them 12 months to decide whether or not they wanted to pursue the matter or not. And yeah I find it interesting that it's taking 12 months about before the first step is even updated on, in your time line averaged about 3-4 months, while the supposed bid to buy it originally took only a few months from start to finish according to the same people with insider information (what company don't they have insider information on :p) down to the last signature before it kinked up. Now, both were going for the same goal, except one managed to get that far in less than three or four months while the other in after nearly 12 months not even an update of whether or not they are looking into putting in an offer or not. That don't sound fishy about that information? And no, I may not be part of tech company but that doesn't mean I have not a slightest clue of how business work and would appreciate it if you and other stop approaching people that don't have "inside information as such" We are not complete idiots. Just like MWM never made an MMO before but that doesn't mean they don't know stuff about how to make one.
But I think in hindsight, I think it probably was best instead of bragging about how they have inside info and such and such and who they know, it was best that they kept quiet until they had something substantial they could share because right now, from the days of bragging about who they knew in Disney, and Google and how they had inside track to the guy who buys things for that company, it looks more and more like a whole load of crap fed to the public to get the hopes up and that they really had not much insider information than the average bloke here. They just happen to know someone that worked at Disney and Google. And so do I, well I don't know anyone that work for Google yet.
In a nutshell there was promise to deliver updates on this situation frequently, and after 12 months they failed to deliver. So of course someone will question it. If they couldn't give out any information or updates or didn't have that power then they should have left it alone instead of bragging is they were buddy buddy with the head guys and would be feeding information to the rest.
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Eh, I don't think they were bragging, so much as they had a plan and needed help to enact it. Specifically, the letter campaign. They explained why they thought they had reason to believe it could work.
People do run out of time. Updates would be nice; not arguing there. You may even have a point about them having something of a responsibility to provide them more frequently. But I do think characterizing their behavior as "bragging" is unfair.
I'm not saying I agree with the rest of your position, but I don't out-and-out disagree, either. Just objecting to characterizing the initial request for help's explanation as boastful or otherwise an ego-trip.
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Eh, I don't think they were bragging, so much as they had a plan and needed help to enact it. Specifically, the letter campaign. They explained why they thought they had reason to believe it could work.
People do run out of time. Updates would be nice; not arguing there. You may even have a point about them having something of a responsibility to provide them more frequently. But I do think characterizing their behavior as "bragging" is unfair.
I'm not saying I agree with the rest of your position, but I don't out-and-out disagree, either. Just objecting to characterizing the initial request for help's explanation as boastful or otherwise an ego-trip.
To me it seemed like bragging because at the time anytime someone had question nor doubt, the usual reply was "Well we have inside information and you don't." type answers. The first couple of times, ok, we get ya. After a while it comes off as bragging. As if they never let anyone forget that they have inside information. It seems letting people know they had inside information was more important that the information of what's going on. Which comes off as an ego trip of "we know people and nobody else could possibly know someone".
And through out I mostly stayed quiet about it, but eventually it came to a point when every time someone brought up the subject of what's going on, the first thing said is "They or we have inside information." After a while I started to question, if they had so much inside information then why do they not know anything or keeping their word on keeping people updated. Which then looked like the entire thing was merely a way to brag that they knew insiders and wanted everyone else to know but couldn't produce anything or information of substance because it was all for an ego trip.
That is how it came off to me. I think maybe they should have focused on less that they knew someone that knew someone and focused more on the task at hand.
Because I'm sure most people know someone in various places. I know people that do gov contracts. The yguy that decides yeah or nay what equipment goes into the hospital the guy that control the budget for the electrical water and gas system. What does that mean? I'm better than everyone? No. I don't think so. And If I said that I can push an agenda to those folks, keep watching for updates and a year go by with not much updates, then it's natural for people to starting asking. What happened and or did I really know the people that I said I knew. I could keep replying like they did "I know the water guy so sit down and wait." but I don't think it would one single bit die down the doubt and only serves as if I'm using the connection as personal ego stroking and not really caring about the task at hand.
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At present, City of Titans and SCoRE are the only projects that seem to be actually making progress and showing returns.
I missed something... And honestly searched and googled for it first... What's SCoRE?
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I missed something... And honestly searched and googled for it first... What's SCoRE?
It's that secret private server thing. Hell, that thing is secret and we get more bits and pieces of progress or what's going on and whether or not they are still at it than the supposed public TFHM thing. And without the "I know someone on the inside crap. and Without even knowing who exactly is working on it. Go figure.
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I missed something... And honestly searched and googled for it first... What's SCoRE?
Our reverse-engineering team - the Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers. I came up with the name, TonyV turned it into an acronym and made it the official title of the team. They're the ones slowly re-creating CoH from scratch, with an end-goal of giving us private servers for a re-made CoH.
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Our reverse-engineering team - the Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers. I came up with the name, TonyV turned it into an acronym and made the official title of the team. They're the ones slowly re-creating CoH from scratch, with an end-goal of giving us private servers for a re-made CoH.
Otherwise known as my new best friends. :) thanks, I thought it may have been something like that, but also wasn't sure if it was a spiritual successor project I hadn't heard about yet.
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You go, SCoRE!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/Cb8fRC1.gif)
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Knowing someone that work for google or Disney doesn't mean insider information. That mean people know someone that work for google or Disney. Do they actually know the guy the person or persons, directly face to face by name friendly basis of the guy that decides what to buy or not?
We didn't even know anyone at Disney. That pitch was sent blind.
For Google, a contact of Mercedes asked her to forward the pitch to him. That man was Jeson Patel, and you can read about him here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/small-business/sb-growth/success-stories/small-startup-hits-google-paydirt/article591719/?page=all
The only person who knew Mr Patel personally would be Mercedes' contact. This was explained in this FAQ:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8542.0.html
No when a group of non-official people claim they have inside information on the inner workings of a major corporation after a year there would be enough of an update without giving up "Legal infor."
We had input on pitch from a former member of Paragon Studios. I cannot break their trust in us, and we were given information strictly on the basis we did not say who it had came from, however it was a senior member of staff there. It was also checked over by at least three members of staff of Paragon Studios to make sure the information featured in the pitch was correct.
We never claimed to have inside information on the inner workings of a major corporation.
That is how it came off to me. I think maybe they should have focused on less that they knew someone that knew someone and focused more on the task at hand.
Mercedes, Ammon, Quinch and I spent weeks working on the original pitch - hours of time that we could have spent actually playing a game that we knew was going to close. Mercedes worked on it to the point that she was scrabbling to meet a deadline for a novel. With all due respect, we could not have been more focused on that pitch.
When it came to the pitch to Google, as you rightfully point out, Mercedes had left these boards, and we were unable to get hold of Ammon. Quinch was working on the pitch as he relocated to an entirely different country. As with the Google pitch, it was being written around real lives - a demanding day job and The Phoenix Project in my case, and a relocation for Quinch.
Hell, that thing is secret and we get more bits and pieces of progress or what's going on and whether or not they are still at it than the supposed public TFHM thing. And without the "I know someone on the inside crap. and Without even knowing who exactly is working on it. Go figure.
Supposedly public? TFHM isn't a.. I don't even know what to say here. It's not a TV show, or a magazine or a..mayor. It's (currently) two people sending out information to try talk people into trying to buy something we don't own, working on it around real-world commitments.
If we had updates, we would give them to you. Do you really think for a moment that if we hadn't heard from Google or Disney, we wouldn't have told people?
We do what we can to get the pitch out and make sure it's tailored to the company it's going to. We do what we can to make sure there's a show of support for City of Heroes. We're not in a position where we can force people to buy, or even read the pitch. And if they DO read the pitch and they ARE interested, and they do approach NC Soft, I can't make NC Soft sell, either.
All any of us wanted to do was to find a new home for City of Heroes, so you guys could go home again. I'm sorry you felt the whole thing is an ego trip. And honestly, if that's how it's being perceived there's not really much point, is there?
Sorry, TFHM, if you're actually here to read this, but you guys never really needed my help, anyway.
If I was a teenager right about now, I'd be flouncing out and slamming a door. Internet strops are so unbecoming.
Agge, Tony,. Feel free to delete this post if you like. You guys rock.
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If we had updates, we would give them to you. Do you really think for a moment that if we hadn't heard from Google or Disney, we wouldn't have told people?
Actually you havent been forth coming with even that information or much information besides you know people and how hard you worked on it and climb mountains both ways between real ife and usual mumbo jumble.
--snip--
I've edited out some more personal attacks and a wall of criticism text. --TonyV
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Actually you havent been forth coming with even that information or much information besides you know people and how hard you worked on it and climb mountains both ways between real ife and usual mumbo jumble.
Seriously, dude, enough. If you think you can do better, then do better. Otherwise, knock it off. I'm not asking this time.
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Don't worry about it, Rae. It's a few people who like to write walls of text that are complaining and going on and on about it. Most of us know that you're doing / have done everything humanly possible. I feel that it was made quite clear in the initial TFHM discussion and announcements that
- It's a huge long shot and nobody should expect it to be successful (but we have to try anyway). Hence, you know, the name.
- Due to how these kinds of companies work, it might be a long time before we hear anything, if ever. It's unlikely they would contact any of the TFHM members directly unless they wanted some additional information or clarification before trying to contact NCSoft.
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*emails Rae hugs and cookies*
I still think you're awesome. Team Wildcard is awesome. The pair of you still active with Team Wildcard is doubly awesome, for sticking it out this long even through such difficulties.
The City of Titans team is charting ridiculous levels of awesome, for all the sheer coolness I'm seeing lately.
The Heroes and Villains team are awesome, and the Valiance Online team are awesome, and they're both going to blow the roof off with sheer coolness once they're ready to start showing things off.
And the SCoRE team, well shoot, they've got the coolest gig of all... they get to rebuild a secret underground tunnel to the place we all know is amazing. There's no guessing whether their success is something I'd want to see... I know it for a fact. I know that game's awesomeness from my own memory. So the Rebel Alliance finding making a back door past the Death Star? Yeah, that's pretty badass.
When the day comes that one of these teams crosses their finish line, I'm going to be really, really, really, REALLY glad they didn't give up. They have tasks I can't take on personally - not "don't want to", but can't. I have neither the skills to make the attempt, nor the time to learn them. So if all I can do is support those who can... why on Earth would I ever choose to badmouth them instead??? :o
It makes absolutely no logical sense to want something, and then endlessly discourage the only people who are trying to make it happen. Positivity is a much better way to live your life. Not only is it a lot more helpful in getting what you want, but you're far happier while you're waiting.
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Don't worry about it, Rae. It's a few people who like to write walls of text that are complaining and going on and on about it. Most of us know that you're doing / have done everything humanly possible.
This.
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Our reverse-engineering team - the Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers. I came up with the name, TonyV turned it into an acronym and made it the official title of the team. They're the ones slowly re-creating CoH from scratch, with an end-goal of giving us private servers for a re-made CoH.
Can I just say I will build a shrine to you and your team and worship it daily the moment you bring back out beloved COH?
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I very rarely post here and hardly ever did back on the official forums either, but I've read these forums almost every day since the game ended. It's been inspiring to see all the people working at various ways to try and save the in whichever way they can. Seeing all of the people working so hard and not prepared to give up our little city of superheroes has been great.
I certainly hasn't believed that any of the options have been a guarantee of success, most are somewhere on the spectrum of being a real long shot. But things like TFHM may be a long shot, but they wouldn't be any kind of shot at all without Rae, Quinch & co working to try. Whether it gets the game back or not I think the work of the team has been great.
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Most of us understand what a daunting task you guys have taken upon yourselves and really do appreciate the effort! We also realize corporate decisions are never made overnight. At least, none of the ones I've worked for ever have. They work on the 5yr+ plan. There is always a great deal of waiting. The fact that you were willing to try says volumes!
Keep it up! I'm behind you all the way!
Never Give Up! Never Surrender!
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All any of us wanted to do was to find a new home for City of Heroes, so you guys could go home again. I'm sorry you felt the whole thing is an ego trip. And honestly, if that's how it's being perceived there's not really much point, is there?
I personally never lost faith in Task Force Hail Mary (Though I confess that I lost some desire to post here some time ago) but there's actually an example I'd like to point out in your post.
I don't think the problem is so much a matter of people simply not unloading all this information and updates and such. I think it's a matter of how people perceive work being done when there's silence for a long time. Mercedes Lackey, as mentioned in your post, stopped working on things, and stopped posting here, unannounced. As a result the perspective was that people go from "Yeah, she's helping!" to "I... Think she's helping?" to "There's been no word on anything for months. She's walked away." This isn't to say what -really- happened, just how it's perceived. The vast majority of the time when people abandon projects, they do so without a single word, so it gets demoralizing when you don't hear from someone.
In the beginning, everything was abuzz. "Yeah! We're working!" Posts were made by Mercedes, Tony, etc. It's not the fact that there's people telling everyone that there's so much work, also detailing -all- the work they do. It was just the mere presence of folks they know are spearheading these efforts.
You ever work a job where you have a boss that sits in his office two or three floors above you that you never see? You have no business criticizing his work, but it does affect morale negatively when you never see him around. What about the boss that you see all the time that just says "Hey, what's up!?" and goes to do his job, still without showing you anything that's none of your business? The latter often feels more pleasant, that the big wigs making all the decisions acknowledge you, and you can acknowledge them. That's kinda how it is. You may not be making decisions for NCSoft, but you're definitely our leaders in trying to get the game IP sold, to which I'm 100% behind you.
And I think that's what some people see. TFHM was a noble effort, is a noble effort. So I can't help but look at the people involved as sort of 'leaders' in that aspect. I've sent my letters, I've gone to people -not even on this forum- and gave them the information posted here. So I'm not going to bash on that effort. I'm just saying 'presence' could help. And one big hit to the morale of this forum was that Mercedes just... Got up and left. Without a word. Which, as I described before, is -exactly- how most projects internet borne come to an end. (Once again, not bashing Mercedes. She's got a lot on her plate, and I applaud her for the sacrifices made even up to now. I know we would be nowhere near where we were, and are, without her.)
Now on the flip side...
Actually you havent been forth coming with even that information or much information besides you know people and how hard you worked on it and climb mountains both ways between real ife and usual mumbo jumble.
This has been happening from day 1. From many different sides. And while I'll be the first one to say that... Yeah. I don't believe it. Ever. When someone says "I have an inside source!" I really have no reason to believe but faith in that what I'm being told is true.
What I do believe is that none of this "inside source" crap matters. Think about it. Even if it's completely false, these are grown adults with real jobs, and life they've sacrificed to do this. Don't you think they've weighed the odds enough to believe their efforts are worth it?
It was enough 1 year ago to get people to rally up and announce "Fuck yeah!". I understand how it can lose steam when there's no results a year later, but the point and purpose still stands. It really doesn't matter to me nor should it to anyone else, if there are inside sources or not. If they exist, they can't reveal them, lest the advantage is lost. If they don't, it at least serves the purpose of driving people towards a goal they feel is worthy of the effort. This information that they chose to release is completely irrelevant in whether or not it's true.
I do have one thing for Rae before I go back to lurking, though. Rae, I got in touch with both you and Mercedes earlier this year in an attempt to reach a few Internet personalities in an attempt to spread some awareness. If there's anything this internet fool whose experience is largely just writing can help, please send me a PM. If I can't help, I might be able to drag in someone that can, who doesn't come to this forum.
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I personally never lost faith in Task Force Hail Mary (Though I confess that I lost some desire to post here some time ago) but there's actually an example I'd like to point out in your post.
I don't think the problem is so much a matter of people simply not unloading all this information and updates and such. I think it's a matter of how people perceive work being done when there's silence for a long time. Mercedes Lackey, as mentioned in your post, stopped working on things, and stopped posting here, unannounced. As a result the perspective was that people go from "Yeah, she's helping!" to "I... Think she's helping?" to "There's been no word on anything for months. She's walked away." This isn't to say what -really- happened, just how it's perceived. The vast majority of the time when people abandon projects, they do so without a single word, so it gets demoralizing when you don't hear from someone.
In the beginning, everything was abuzz. "Yeah! We're working!" Posts were made by Mercedes, Tony, etc. It's not the fact that there's people telling everyone that there's so much work, also detailing -all- the work they do. It was just the mere presence of folks they know are spearheading these efforts.
You ever work a job where you have a boss that sits in his office two or three floors above you that you never see? You have no business criticizing his work, but it does affect morale negatively when you never see him around. What about the boss that you see all the time that just says "Hey, what's up!?" and goes to do his job, still without showing you anything that's none of your business? The latter often feels more pleasant, that the big wigs making all the decisions acknowledge you, and you can acknowledge them. That's kinda how it is. You may not be making decisions for NCSoft, but you're definitely our leaders in trying to get the game IP sold, to which I'm 100% behind you.
And I think that's what some people see. TFHM was a noble effort, is a noble effort. So I can't help but look at the people involved as sort of 'leaders' in that aspect. I've sent my letters, I've gone to people -not even on this forum- and gave them the information posted here. So I'm not going to bash on that effort. I'm just saying 'presence' could help. And one big hit to the morale of this forum was that Mercedes just... Got up and left. Without a word. Which, as I described before, is -exactly- how most projects internet borne come to an end. (Once again, not bashing Mercedes. She's got a lot on her plate, and I applaud her for the sacrifices made even up to now. I know we would be nowhere near where we were, and are, without her.)
Exactly.
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Can I just say I will build a shrine to you and your team and worship it daily the moment you bring back out beloved COH?
Um, I'm not on the team. I am a programmer/DBA, but not a games programmer.
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Um, I'm not on the team. I am a programmer/DBA, but not a games programmer.
Ah I see... well the shrine will go up for those who bring back coh regardless!
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*pictures thousands of grateful hearts holding torches around that shrine*
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I don't know Mercedes and I certainly won't try to speak for her, however I have lost close members of my family and loss hits us all differently.
Look at this from a different veiwpoint: You just lost a lot of friends and a community you had been with for 8 years. Then your mother dies and your world is once again destroyed. When she logs in here it is a reminder of the loss and it is hard for some people to take multiple hits and keep going.
In the middle of all of that you are contracted to write a book. It must be done you have a deadline. So yes, Mercedes gets a pass from me (not that she needs it) for all of the past work she has done.
Personally, I have spent over $20,000 on legal fees for my daughter on a custody case. I am moving soon to be closer to my grand kids and help with them. I also have been swamped at work for the last 3 months with a huge project which is finished in 2 weeks. However i did contact all of the game developers I could find in Michigan - including the U of M to float the idea of them trying to get the game.
I have seriously considered trying to get a college to seek out NCSoft to open the game as a developmental exercise to teach new game programmers and developers. They may not SELL the game but they may DONATE/Lease it to a school. I know I have less time to work on it but I still have a huge hole where the game used to sit.
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I don't know Mercedes and I certainly won't try to speak for her, however I have lost close members of my family and loss hits us all differently.
Look at this from a different veiwpoint: You just lost a lot of friends and a community you had been with for 8 years. Then your mother dies and your world is once again destroyed. When she logs in here it is a reminder of the loss and it is hard for some people to take multiple hits and keep going.
In the middle of all of that you are contracted to write a book. It must be done you have a deadline. So yes, Mercedes gets a pass from me (not that she needs it) for all of the past work she has done.
Personally, I have spent over $20,000 on legal fees for my daughter on a custody case. I am moving soon to be closer to my grand kids and help with them. I also have been swamped at work for the last 3 months with a huge project which is finished in 2 weeks. However i did contact all of the game developers I could find in Michigan - including the U of M to float the idea of them trying to get the game.
I have seriously considered trying to get a college to seek out NCSoft to open the game as a developmental exercise to teach new game programmers and developers. They may not SELL the game but they may DONATE/Lease it to a school. I know I have less time to work on it but I still have a huge hole where the game used to sit.
You never know what might work. Thanks for the effort! :)
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How dare you volunteer's spending your free time to help get our game back not spend more time updating us or sending out pitches!. Huge companies tend to make huge million dollar investments rather quickly with little to no discussion so I find it hard to believe your direct phone lines to Disney and Google haven't rang sense you sent the emails. Seriously though. TFHM doesn't owe anyone anything. They have done more then enough for the game and are continuing to do so. Their private info is theirs and theirs alone. If you don't like the way they are doing things. Write your own pitches to Microsoft or Valve or whomever is next on the list. But these guys are not your employees, they are not your henchmen, and they are not on trial. So ease off of them. Perhaps even.......thank them!
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My gods, what would happen if City of Titans turned out to be a stellar, smashing success? And at virtually the same time, we find out we got our CoH back and in our hands?
What would we do?
Celebrate.
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All any of us wanted to do was to find a new home for City of Heroes, so you guys could go home again. I'm sorry you felt the whole thing is an ego trip. And honestly, if that's how it's being perceived there's not really much point, is there?
I don't know you, certainly can't speak for you, and for that matter I was not ever really directly involved with TFHM's efforts. However, I can say this: the point to helping a community isn't the accolades some but not all who do so earn, its not the recognition most who do so never receive, its the knowledge you have that at the end of the day you did what you could to help something you love.
Everyone who has contributed long enough to the City of Heroes community, or any community for that matter, eventually finds their efforts underappreciated, misunderstood, ignored, or even reviled by some in that very community. Everyone. You have to value what you contribute, not how that contribution is perceived.
If it helps: those of us who have been there, we know. You have nothing to prove to us. I can't directly speak for anyone but myself, and I'm not nearly as active as I've been in the past, but I've spoken to a lot of community contributors over the years, and I cannot think of a single one who would disagree with me on this point. We all do what we can, and we all appreciate what gets done. The rest is the rest.
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My gods, what would happen if City of Titans turned out to be a stellar, smashing success? And at virtually the same time, we find out we got our CoH back and in our hands?
What would we do?
I will sing a Katy Perry song. And not the cool one!
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My gods, what would happen if City of Titans turned out to be a stellar, smashing success? And at virtually the same time, we find out we got our CoH back and in our hands?
What would we do?
Dance! We'd be in super hero heaven!
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What would we do?
Put coffee in IV drip lines to get the caffeine directly in to our bloodstream?
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A Hail Mary is the last possible play you have left at the end of the game. No time on the clock - everyone is scrambling to get open in the end zone and off goes a 45 yard pass from the quarterback.
What happens next?
You may win the game or lose the game. In the end you tried and that is what counts - people tried.
In Waylander - a David Gemmel book:
My favourite scene, that I've never forgotten is the scene where the heroine asks Waylander how he can put aside his emotions and fight the way he does when so much is riding on the outcome of the fight. So he teaches her a lesson. She wants to go with Waylander into danger and he tells her she can, if she can catch a pebble he throws to her in the moonlight.
When she catches it, he asks her why she's so happy and she tells him she's won. He pushes her to explain what she's done and finally she understands that she simply caught a pebble in the moonlight.
We are simply trying to find someone who can catch a pebble in the moonlight.
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I don't know Mercedes and I certainly won't try to speak for her, however I have lost close members of my family and loss hits us all differently.
Look at this from a different veiwpoint: You just lost a lot of friends and a community you had been with for 8 years. Then your mother dies and your world is once again destroyed. When she logs in here it is a reminder of the loss and it is hard for some people to take multiple hits and keep going.
In the middle of all of that you are contracted to write a book. It must be done you have a deadline. So yes, Mercedes gets a pass from me (not that she needs it) for all of the past work she has done.
Personally, I have spent over $20,000 on legal fees for my daughter on a custody case. I am moving soon to be closer to my grand kids and help with them. I also have been swamped at work for the last 3 months with a huge project which is finished in 2 weeks. However i did contact all of the game developers I could find in Michigan - including the U of M to float the idea of them trying to get the game.
I have seriously considered trying to get a college to seek out NCSoft to open the game as a developmental exercise to teach new game programmers and developers. They may not SELL the game but they may DONATE/Lease it to a school. I know I have less time to work on it but I still have a huge hole where the game used to sit.
I think that is very creative thinking (re: colleges and CoH). I also agree with your observations on loss.
Wishing you and our community the best and having increasing hopes for City of Titans. I hope you are each having an excellent day!
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In a way, even though CoT is by now pretty much on the way, I still hope google is trying or has succeeded but hasn't announced anything. Because 2015 november is still a ways away. But i'd rather play city of heroes any day over champions online or DCUO because of how holy-trinityish they are. CO barely dodges that core problem with the freeform system, but I know that eventually nerfs may cause the holy trinity being required in any late-game content, which is annoying me. While DCUO doesn't even bother to hide it, they have apparently implemented a system to try and move away from it(particularly, buffs that are included when there is no one in a particular role), but they have a long ways to go before the trinity is fully abolished to make it an interesting game to me in things other than solo play.
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http://www.freep.com/article/20131029/BUSINESS06/310290036/superfly-kids-capes-growth
So a Detroit area store starts selling capes and other superhero stuff and sales - take off as well? Maybe another thing to use as an incentive for someone to buy the game.
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Let's assume we get the best of both worlds, that City of Titans is a smash success AND that we get City of Heroes back, either with a new publisher or (probably a complete improbable daydream here) as some sort of open source or public domain MMORPG. In that "pie in the sky" unlikely event, perhaps the two could be wed in some way--e.g. the CoT dimension and the CoH dimension are like Praetoria with respect to one another, only moreso. I guess what I'm saying is I think there is room for both, and that I expect I'd play both CoH and CoT, maybe on an alternating schedule, assuming I get the chance.
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I almost wonder if CoT's success will push NCSoft to restart CoH....
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I almost wonder if CoT's success will push NCSoft to restart CoH....
I would have to assume that anything less than a hundred thousand subscribers or less than six million dollars of annual revenue for CoT would not be enough to cause NCSoft to care any more about City of Heroes, given that they were willing to walk away from comparable numbers without so much as blinking.
And given the costs to restart development and support, I doubt anything less than half a million players or twenty million dollars of annual revenue would even get anyone's attention. To be frank, if CoT is somehow wildly successful I think its more likely NCSoft tries to figure out a way to sue CoT to get money from it than they try to relaunch City of Heroes to get revenue from that.
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I would have to assume that anything less than a hundred thousand subscribers or less than six million dollars of annual revenue for CoT would not be enough to cause NCSoft to care any more about City of Heroes, given that they were willing to walk away from comparable numbers without so much as blinking.
And given the costs to restart development and support, I doubt anything less than half a million players or twenty million dollars of annual revenue would even get anyone's attention.
Indeed.
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To be frank, if CoT is somehow wildly successful I think its more likely NCSoft tries to figure out a way to sue CoT to get money from it than they try to relaunch City of Heroes to get revenue from that.
Sadly this is also disappointingly likely as it's SOP for most corporations.
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I almost wonder if CoT's success will push NCSoft to restart CoH....
Have thought for a while now that we are most likely to see CoX hauled out of the closet, when we start warming up for the CoT closed beta. I would not be at all surprised to see that happen.
I would go there, but the main focus of my energies will be CoT, since NC is so untrustworthy.
As for lawsuits, that would be amusing. We have already been through all this with the Marvel lawsuit; for all the reasons the Marvel lawsuit failed, a suit against CoT would fail as well. After all, we now have legal precedent. And if you could sue someone else for having a game in the same genre as your game, we would not have 50,000 fantasy games.
NC does not hold the patent on superhero games. That's not even possible.
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NCSoft could do considerable damage to CoT by bringing CoX back at the right moment. That would be true, perhaps even more true, if it was a limited time engagement.
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NCSoft could do considerable damage to CoT by bringing CoX back at the right moment. That would be true, perhaps even more true, if it was a limited time engagement.
Which is why the fact we have multiple projects helps. Valiance Online hits a pre-alpha release in 3 days. For NCSoft to gain any traction, they will need to reopen CoH within 5 weeks else VO will begin chiseling away at the impact from the reopening.
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Which is why the fact we have multiple projects helps. Valiance Online hits a pre-alpha release in 3 days. For NCSoft to gain any traction, they will need to reopen CoH within 5 weeks else VO will begin chiseling away at the impact from the reopening.
I'm not well versed in such things, but I'd think that it'd be impossible for NCSoft to bring COH back now even if it wanted to-- let alone in such a short period of time. Matt Miller has said-- more than once I believe-- that COH had such jury-rigged spaghetti code that he didn't believe any other studio could make the game work even if they bought the IP from NcSoft-- especially with the former Paragon Studio Devs scattered to the four winds.
And even if that part were technically possible-- even if they still had the servers-- they'd need a studio to run the game and do tech support.
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GM_Lloyd may still be around.
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I'm not well versed in such things, but I'd think that it'd be impossible for NCSoft to bring COH back now even if it wanted to-- let alone in such a short period of time. Matt Miller has said-- more than once I believe-- that COH had such jury-rigged spaghetti code that he didn't believe any other studio could make the game work even if they bought the IP from NcSoft-- especially with the former Paragon Studio Devs scattered to the four winds.
And even if that part were technically possible-- even if they still had the servers-- they'd need a studio to run the game and do tech support.
Greetings, I used to work for an outsourcing firm which specialized in doing just this. It would likely be a maintenance mode, no studio to run the game, just basic support at best.
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I'm not well versed in such things, but I'd think that it'd be impossible for NCSoft to bring COH back now even if it wanted to-- let alone in such a short period of time. Matt Miller has said-- more than once I believe-- that COH had such jury-rigged spaghetti code that he didn't believe any other studio could make the game work even if they bought the IP from NcSoft-- especially with the former Paragon Studio Devs scattered to the four winds.
And even if that part were technically possible-- even if they still had the servers-- they'd need a studio to run the game and do tech support.
It can be done but probably not easily and would take some time. Hell, people are doing it without the actual code.
Unless they view it as a profitable to do so, the likelihood of them doing it is slim.
I'm hedging a bet on that they probably wont bring it back in the past form at least not in the 2014 if ever. But they do still have time.
pre alpha, is still a long ways from beta and live but probably closer than it takes to get stuff up and running. And if they do bring it back they probably wont do it only in maintenance mode nor would a company looking for long term probably want to spend millions on something only to immediately put it into maintenance mode which can significantly slow down the return of investment rate especially in the wake of three new games that are similar hoping that if the best do happen they break even within the first couple of years and still have to figure out how the code works in order to do even basic maintenance. Remember even the devs that worked on it for years had trouble from time to time with fixing stuff without breaking something else which also would slow things down as the new people learn their way around. But hey, anything is possible.
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Even if NCSoft re-launched CoH to take advantage of any of the other projects, can't see them attracting many people, they didn't bother marketing a brand new game back in the day, they wouldn't do so now. At best, they'd get only a part of the previous CoH community and for most of them (or us if you prefer) it would be a very cautious approach and even more cautious at the time of spending any cash on it.
Now, if any of the projects (or all) has drifted as far away from CoH as, let's say CO did, then said project would be in a clear disadvantage against an hipothetic CoH return as far as old CoH playerbase goes, let's not forget we know what we like and what we like is CoH, hence why we are still here but still, said project would be able to fish players who never played CoH hence they don't know what they're missing.-
The only way I see such a move succeeding would be if CoH was still a far better game than all three existing projects plus the SCoRE effort was as full of bugs and server restarts as pretty much any WoW private server around.-
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Even if NCSoft re-launched CoH to take advantage of any of the other projects, can't see them attracting many people, they didn't bother marketing a brand new game back in the day, they wouldn't do so now. At best, they'd get only a part of the previous CoH community and for most of them (or us if you prefer) it would be a very cautious approach and even more cautious at the time of spending any cash on it.
Now, if any of the projects (or all) has drifted as far away from CoH as, let's say CO did, then said project would be in a clear disadvantage against an hipothetic CoH return as far as old CoH playerbase goes, let's not forget we know what we like and what we like is CoH, hence why we are still here but still, said project would be able to fish players who never played CoH hence they don't know what they're missing.-
The only way I see such a move succeeding would be if CoH was still a far better game than all three existing projects plus the SCoRE effort was as full of bugs and server restarts as pretty much any WoW private server around.-
Yup it will be interesting.
Oh and don't forget the effects of having COX back directly in the form of the private server thing.
Given that neither three projects cant be direct copies, meaning they probably will change some stuff and as varied of what the community's view of what made COX COX to them, the projects seem to also have three different views of what a successor is. And believe it or not, even within the community there is different views of what the next game they should play, while generally COX was well liked, it was liked on various levels. SOme people felt COX was stale, but there wasn't better choices and now, probably wouldn't lay a direct copy of COX, while others will settle for nothing less than a direct exact copy, other only if everything is the same but reskinned, while others have other factors all the way down to, they are not going to put money into a game that feels like a copy of the game they already played for 8 years much.
But the thtree pojects have to decide and be honest and realistic about their actual target goal. Which part of the community are they aiming for, or if they are truly aiming for all community members (it's something easy to say, but much harder to do), or only a strict part of the community that liked certain features and hope maybe some new people join in, completely new community, or only the people they like and the people that like what they like in the cox community.
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Matt Miller has said-- more than once I believe-- that COH had such jury-rigged spaghetti code that he didn't believe any other studio could make the game work even if they bought the IP from NcSoft
Matt's a funny guy.
Too bad NcSoft will never sell any of their IP to anyone.
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pre alpha, is still a long ways from beta
As I understand it, alpha testing is when the programmers test it themselves, to see if it'll do what it should (so far). Beta testing brings in outsiders, who will try to get the program to do things that the developers might not think of. (And I like to think of people silly enough to buy version 1.0 of a program as gamma testers, especially since Internet access to patches makes it more attractive to push a still-buggy program out the door.)
So VO's pre-alpha isn't even ready for a formal dev trial run. But I still love it. The zone looks so much like areas of Atlas Park, it makes me happy and homesick.
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As I understand it, alpha testing is when the programmers test it themselves, to see if it'll do what it should (so far). Beta testing brings in outsiders, who will try to get the program to do things that the developers might not think of. (And I like to think of people silly enough to buy version 1.0 of a program as gamma testers, especially since Internet access to patches makes it more attractive to push a still-buggy program out the door.)
So VO's pre-alpha isn't even ready for a formal dev trial run. But I still love it. The zone looks so much like areas of Atlas Park, it makes me happy and homesick.
traditionally yes.
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I honestly don't think it will make NCSoft re-open CoH. Champions Online doesn't make them want to re-open it nor does DCU or Marvel Online(or whatever it is called.) If NCSoft wanted CoH up and running. CoH would be up and running. It isn't a jealousy thing, people don't spend that much money and go back on everything they have done as well as pretend a decent amount of PR didn't happen just because 2 new games get released. The only reason they would re-open it is to steal customers away from VO and CoT and that wouldn't justify spending the money it would take to re-open the game and hire a new development team because it would barely be able to fill the servers. If they considered it a loss when we all loved the game and didn't hate NCSoft then would what it be considered now?
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Honestly I don't think NCSoft would ever reopen City of Heroes. They might eventually sale it to another company but never reopen it.
Even if they did, for me atleast. It'd have to be free to play with a sub option. As it was before it closed. I just don't trust them enough anymore to pay a sub up front and risk losing all that money. When the wind could blow the wrong way one day and have them decide to shut it down again. I think if they ever did win the players back, just to shut it down again a few years later. They'd have generation after generation of gamers, not willing to invest in them at all.
They burned a lot of people with this one. I'm sure old CoH players would go back if they re-opened but they'd do it hisatently and with leary eyes on NCSoft at all times for awhile.
I'd love to have City of Heroes back in any form but for now. I'm looking forward to the three projects it's closure has spawned. I don't expect them to be literal copies of City of Heroes. The only thing I hope for from them are their version of Master Minds, a modern setting, good community (which shouldn't be hard to accomplish with all the fine folks here) and the ability to farm (hopefully in instanced missions :P ).
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Matt's a funny guy.
Still, no game studio would want to inherit City of Heroes' codebase. In fact, I think you're more likely to be able to make sense of City of Heroes design if you *aren't* a game developer than if you are one. If you were already a game developer, it would probably be difficult to even see the code through all of the tears.
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That's alright. I'll just program a neural network to learn the function represented by it. How hard could it be?
(*cough* :gonk:)
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Still, no game studio would want to inherit City of Heroes' codebase. In fact, I think you're more likely to be able to make sense of City of Heroes design if you *aren't* a game developer than if you are one.
That's probably true, but mostly because game studios tend to suffer from worse "Not Invented Here" syndrome than any other software developers.
Even Oracle, who's one of the worst.
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Still, no game studio would want to inherit City of Heroes' codebase. In fact, I think you're more likely to be able to make sense of City of Heroes design if you *aren't* a game developer than if you are one. If you were already a game developer, it would probably be difficult to even see the code through all of the tears.
I COULD see one wanting the statistics tables, though, if you were trying to reproduce the game. Running them through a mapping function so they would be appropriate for your new code would be easy, and you'd end up with all of the CoH powers and mobs with statistics coded.
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Honestly it's not as hard a game to replicate when it comes to the combat mechanics, the damage mechanics are actually simple, but yeah, CoX's code was very much a spheghetti mess.
I mean I ponder how much code was wasted when all we had were locational/damage type defense roles followed by resistance subtracting from damage on an actual hit. It's simpler than CO's combat mechanics which go through about 20 layers that are all especially buggy.
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That's probably true, but mostly because game studios tend to suffer from worse "Not Invented Here" syndrome than any other software developers.
Even Oracle, who's one of the worst.
Perhaps, but CoH's design and implementation is still an outlier among outliers. On a scale of one to ten, its implementation rates a 3+2i.
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Honestly I don't think NCSoft would ever reopen City of Heroes. They might eventually sale it to another company but never reopen it.
Even if they did, for me atleast. It'd have to be free to play with a sub option. As it was before it closed. I just don't trust them enough anymore to pay a sub up front and risk losing all that money. When the wind could blow the wrong way one day and have them decide to shut it down again. I think if they ever did win the players back, just to shut it down again a few years later. They'd have generation after generation of gamers, not willing to invest in them at all.
They burned a lot of people with this one. I'm sure old CoH players would go back if they re-opened but they'd do it hisatently and with leary eyes on NCSoft at all times for awhile.
I'd love to have City of Heroes back in any form but for now. I'm looking forward to the three projects it's closure has spawned. I don't expect them to be literal copies of City of Heroes. The only thing I hope for from them are their version of Master Minds, a modern setting, good community (which shouldn't be hard to accomplish with all the fine folks here) and the ability to farm (hopefully in instanced missions :P ).
not a fan of mob farming much but I do want support in the games to not be all healing healing healing myself. It's an easy trap to fall into even not intending to. Which is why I often advocate making damage mitigating support very powerful, because if it's not, healing ends up becoming a be-all-end-all.
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Honestly it's not as hard a game to replicate when it comes to the combat mechanics, the damage mechanics are actually simple, but yeah, CoX's code was very much a spheghetti mess.
I mean I ponder how much code was wasted when all we had were locational/damage type defense roles followed by resistance subtracting from damage on an actual hit. It's simpler than CO's combat mechanics which go through about 20 layers that are all especially buggy.
Its not quite that simple, but CoH combat mechanics are very well understood by the player community. In and of themselves they would not be difficult to reimplement in another game. The only real challenge is doing so in the most efficient manner possible. CoH's implementation was not as efficient as possible. I have often wondered, for example, if an implementation exists that would have allowed those mega two hundred player Hami raids to run at full speed. I believe there is.
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Honestly it's not as hard a game to replicate when it comes to the combat mechanics, the damage mechanics are actually simple, but yeah, CoX's code was very much a spheghetti mess.
I'm amazed at how well-informed people are on this subject given that none of them have ever seen a line of it.
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I'm amazed at how well-informed people are on this subject given that none of them have ever seen a line of it.
I suspect most people are just assuming from past dev statements.
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Because some players went on to work with the devs...........just saying.
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I suspect most people are just assuming from past dev statements.
Yeah mostly from dev statements that I seen.
Hey, everything else they say or said was taken without question. I figured, they would know the code more than anyone and if they say it's nuts, I believe them.
Then again, a lot of stuff they said was impossible, no way, never, suddenly became it's coming, new feature, it's here, normality.
Although still I wonder how did the code become or would have become a complete mess anyways? No one documented their work, basic filing, logical building of code and organization, or it once was there and something happened to it and eventually those that built it and or knew it end and out got out numbered by new people coming in as the old ones left? Or something happened back in the day that was unintended but was a PITA to fix and they kind of limped along with it as is and made it work as much as possible?
I figured that for a product that is supposed to or meant to be upgraded and last for years would have an SOP so the new people can pick up on it as the old one leave and make upgrades as time go on without much hassle. At first I thought that maybe something happened or something and it got messed up but then I heard CO code is just as messy if not more so. So it sounds more like a certain group of people's modus operandi and ability with that engine.
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Although still I wonder how did the code become or would have become a complete mess anyways?
The same way most code does, I would imagine. Although I personally wouldn't say the code is a mess, its more that it has (had) twelve years of design and implementation ideas accumulated within it, many if not most of which were formulated for a technological landscape that no longer existed.
For example there's a lot of weirdness in the code that only makes sense if you realize that RAM used to cost about $100 for a 64MB stick when City of Heroes was first being implemented, and today that same $100 buys you about 8GB of RAM - a factor of about a hundred times more memory.
Also, going Microsoft for everything is a more understandable decision in 2002 than it would be even a couple years later. Although I wouldn't have.
The biggest weirdness is that the client and the server look like that scene in the Thing where the Thing is still in the middle of a transformation, half one thing and half the other. The designer mindset appeared to be to think of an MMO as a single player game that has some of the engine ripped halfway out and made multiuser. It is not as clearly separated into client and server as good design principles would otherwise recommend.
(On the other hand, Icon probably relies heavily on that original bad design decision, so there's that.)
True story about the codebase: the devs hired outside contractors to improve certain parts of the code around the time of and just before CoH:Freedom, and one of the things they broke was gravity. For the last five-ish issues of City of Heroes, gravity did not work correctly. Specifically in the physics engine that controlled things like knocked entities. And no one had any idea how to fix it. That's why knockback became insane damage mitigation: you'd knock something down, and it would often just keep bouncing on the ground over and over again until it died.
How you get paid for destroying a world's gravity I'll never understand.
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The same way most code does, I would imagine. Although I personally wouldn't say the code is a mess, its more that it has (had) twelve years of design and implementation ideas accumulated within it, many if not most of which were formulated for a technological landscape that no longer existed.
For example there's a lot of weirdness in the code that only makes sense if you realize that RAM used to cost about $100 for a 64MB stick when City of Heroes was first being implemented, and today that same $100 buys you about 8GB of RAM - a factor of about a hundred times more memory.
Also, going Microsoft for everything is a more understandable decision in 2002 than it would be even a couple years later. Although I wouldn't have.
The biggest weirdness is that the client and the server look like that scene in the Thing where the Thing is still in the middle of a transformation, half one thing and half the other. The designer mindset appeared to be to think of an MMO as a single player game that has some of the engine ripped halfway out and made multiuser. It is not as clearly separated into client and server as good design principles would otherwise recommend.
(On the other hand, Icon probably relies heavily on that original bad design decision, so there's that.)
True story about the codebase: the devs hired outside contractors to improve certain parts of the code around the time of and just before CoH:Freedom, and one of the things they broke was gravity. For the last five-ish issues of City of Heroes, gravity did not work correctly. Specifically in the physics engine that controlled things like knocked entities. And no one had any idea how to fix it. That's why knockback became insane damage mitigation: you'd knock something down, and it would often just keep bouncing on the ground over and over again until it died.
How you get paid for destroying a world's gravity I'll never understand.
Makes sense.
And I just watched the Thing, the new and old version and got a clear picture of that analogy. Not pretty.
But seems something good came out that design, Icon.
But I do wonder this now, off subject, if mmos were are supposedly now being designed to be strictly multiplayer, then how hard is it now or in the future for games to say be released in single player mode instead of being shut down or else playing on potentially hack private server to find a good hearted private server of said game that comes after a few years that may or may not be around itself in another 1-3 years after it goes up due to various reason (i.e. private server owner doesn't pay bill or kick bucket)
And how the hell did they break gravity? :o
I always thought something was fishy about the knockback thing in that time but thought maybe I took too long of a break and don't remember.
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I suspect most people are just assuming from past dev statements.
That's what I actually think is true, yes; I'm just - well, not surprised, but disappointed - by how much a few joking asides by devs have been turned into Gospel truth.
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Again actual PLAYERS were hired by the Devs at time - Arcana was one of them and there were several others.
I think it was Backasswards who was also hired. A couple others fessed up in the Forums after the closure announcements. So the code was a custom made engine that had a bunch of limitations they managed to kind of fudge around to make things happen.
I recall from the start them saying the engine did not allow custom power colors - then it DID allow them. It appears they made quite a few hack-arounds that went around the original engines perimeters.
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I recall from the start them saying the engine did not allow custom power colors - then it DID allow them. It appears they made quite a few hack-arounds that went around the original engines perimeters.
In a certain sense, nothing is genuinely impossible with software in the sense that you can always rewrite the software. But if you didn't actually know the implementation details, it was basically impossible to simply guess at what the difficulty of a change was. No player without first hand knowledge of some kind ever guessed anything right about the game implementation in all the time I was keeping score on the forums. This was so absolute that whenever someone said something even close to true I knew they either had inside knowledge or was tinkering with the game on the side or both.
Custom power colors was one of those things that sounded simple but was a gigantic undertaking. Here's what you needed to do to make that work, starting from the original game:
1. Redo all the power FX art assests to allow tinting.
2. Add tint information to the data channel sent to the game client
3. Add power customization data to the character database
4. Add tint settings to power customization database schema
5. Add User interface to adjust color tint to powers
So, allowing players to change the color of their fire blasts involved changing the back end databases, the communications code, the server code, the game client, the character creation user interface, and redo a few hundred art assets. If none of those things have been done yet and the studio had never before tackled a project involving even one quarter the scope, in the days of the Cryptic 15 you'd have rightly called that task - just to tint some blasts - basically impossible.
What was "hard" and what was "easy" sometimes had nothing to do with on-paper technical difficulty and more to do with what was simply things people said yes to and things people said no to. For example, when I was asked to work on the Architect custom critter system, I designed a valuation system that had three tunable parameters, alpha, beta, and gamma. However, by the time I was asked to work on it some preliminary work had already been done based on informal conversations I had with the devs way back in I14, and the fixed tables for those tunable parameters had already been written into the code for I18. Alpha, and beta. No gamma. When I asked for that fixed data table to be extended by one more column I was told if I needed it the entire thing would be scrapped as undoable, because they didn't have the resources to make that change available at that time. So I refactored my system to work with two variables instead. I also had a proposed change rejected because it required adding a button to the AE custom critter screen. A button.
I learned an awful lot about what the game could and could not do in the last thirty days, because I managed to acquire admin rights to the Beta server - that's how we were able to pull off that Immortal Game event there. A *lot* of trial and error testing (and more than one multi-zone crash). Hypothetically speaking, I may have granted that access to a few other players that made better use of that information than I was in a position to do so.