Titan Network
Community => City of Heroes => Topic started by: Joshex on September 26, 2013, 05:42:40 PM
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Hi titan, I've been absent a while.
things in my life have gotten very complex since I went back to college, I was intending to take legal actions to try and get CoH back again someway or another, I had a lawyer lined up but havn't had time to contact him (he'll be busy at town hall for a while anyways concerning the library)
oh well lets get this on track to City of heroes as that is where I'm posting it. I have found out some information regarding the shutdown that I intend to share.
the shutdown was due to a combination of factors.
Marvel VS NCSoft : the people at NCSoft would be happy if someone could straighten out that case on better terms. NCSoft was given a ruling by the court that it thought was a win. that seeing as Marvel at that time had no plans for an MMO of it's own NCSoft was not guilty of the charges, but an added implication from that was ignored. "if Marvel ever did develop such software City of Heroes could be served a cease and desist."
and thats what happened and why the shut down was so sudden, marvel served NCSoft with a cease and desist and refrain from conversing publically about the terms.
the case between marvel and NCSoft is still open for appeal. Naturally NCSoft is merely trying to take the verdict gracefully, but outside forces are welcomed.
I have an addess for a subpoena concerning this case supplied by our former overlords. and honestly this problem needs to be cleared up first before we can even enter into talks to get the game back.
also any plan Z projects are baiting Marvel to try and create characters like thiers and take you to court over it. if that happens I would suggest opting to reopen NCSoft's case for a further appeal allong with your own.
it is my understanding of the situation of the attempted talks of buying the IP that Paragon was given a valid price but the terms could not be met, according to this sitation the terms were simply "if you want to do this you need to settle all the discrepencies with marvel or you can't charge money for the game" and paragon's employees did not like that honestly cause they didn't have the time or money to battle Marvel over such a topic. - thats the second issue of the shutdown. the people who needed to act did not have the time nor money to do so.
NCSoft no doubt considered the cost of an appeal and with it's legal costs decided it would cost more than the game typically earns in 3 years (which is what any decent lawyer would advise against) So yes i figure there is some sort of inability to act from NCSoft's financial perspective.
it is my expert opinion that the following should be prepared before Marvel is taken on, 3 carefully prepared characters from other series and or custom made characters who are in direct violation of Marvel's likeness rights, then prepare short and decisive placating comments to illustrate that the concept of your character is entirely just emotion and feeling because those are things no company can legally own. the characters should be an expression of feelings. thats the start of the appeal.
after that you need to state that although characters similar to marvel's trademarks could be made in city, they were not made often and the moment the moderators find out the character will be 'nerfed'. now I will note this was only touched on briefly in NCSoft's case and the wording was not made to make it a definite argument against Marvel's claims so it may be a nice trump card. (moderators delete this bit if you feel necessary)
if you can prove that said costume combinations are illegal in game, you also need to prove that marvel does not exclusively own the trademark or copyrights to certain aspects such as wolvarine's claws or the hulk's green rage form. for that you'll need other prepublished characters who also untilize these 'trademark aspects'. they wont be hard to find. beastboy gorrilla form rage anyone? good old freddy kruger?
I can't say i'll definitely be able to do this as I might have to go to china soon.. so I'm dropping in all the information I have incase anyone else would like to help straighten this out.
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good information.
Think the idea that the deal fell through due to something having to do with the "marvel lawsuit" came up about 10 months ago in Nov. and again in late jan or early feb. but was overshadowed by "other reasons" of the deal falling through.
Yeah, the other forgotten part is that only SOME, not all, of marvel's claim got dismissed and no telling which claims were dismissed.
Either way, I dont think selling the IP is as easy as turning over cash they hand you the keys things all depending on what exactly were those terms were and if the new owner were able to or willing to take responsibility for those terms or not.
But in many settlements it's standard procedure to not be able to disclose it to the public.
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it is my expert opinion
Hmmm...
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The case between Marvel and NCsoft was settled out of court, NCsoft hasn't made any public statements about anything to do with it since that happened a bazillion (in internet time) years ago (contrary to what you've posted here), and I think you are once again reaching way out there to find something to latch on to.
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and I think you are once again reaching way out there to find something to latch on to.
You are being far too kind.
I will refrain from my interpretation, as there is no way to NOT get banned or at least a warning if I did so.
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Hmmm...
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*pops into thread* Quite.
The case between Marvel and NCsoft was settled out of court, NCsoft hasn't made any public statements about anything to do with it since that happened a bazillion (in internet time) years ago (contrary to what you've posted here), and I think you are once again reaching way out there to find something to latch on to.
i usually feel that the levelheadedness, accuracy, and logical rigor Joshex displays in most posts could serve as examples for others.
...
*saunters back out*
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So why is Champions safe? Or even DC? Ok DC makes some sense as their lawyers are probably just as good as Marvel's (especially now that they're backed by the Mouse). That's a fight they probably don't care for, but there's no way CO (even with PWE's lawyers) could stand up to Marvel/Disney.
Sorry, but unless Positron or someone else more - well, frankly - credible comes in here and says "no...no that was most definitely not the reason we were shut down.... *wink, wink* *nudge, nudge*", I'm calling BS.
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This is actually a pretty old rumor, Joshex. Are you telling us you have some new legit information from a solid source?
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I feel very uncomfortable reading Joshex's posts. The kind of uncomfortable I feel when someone is telling awkward tall tales that were already proven factually incorrect ages ago... but I feel too bad about embarrassing them to point that out in front of others. >_>
I know he wants to sound like he knows what he's talking about... but he always seems to fall just short of it. He uses enough of the right words to give a casual glancer the impression he's someone "in the know". But every instinct tells me he's full of hot air.
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So why is Champions safe? Or even DC? Ok DC makes some sense as their lawyers are probably just as good as Marvel's (especially now that they're backed by the Mouse). That's a fight they probably don't care for, but there's no way CO (even with PWE's lawyers) could stand up to Marvel/Disney.
I don't know about Champions, but DCUO practically begs you to make ripoffs of DC characters. Half the costume pieces in that game are either based on or directly taken from one of their signature characters.
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DCUO is its own IP. Marvel Heroes is distinct from any superhero MMO in so many ways, least of which being that it's not an MMO, but I digress. Joshex has said some pretty "out there" things, but nothing outright crazy or outlandish. I'm willing to join the Trust But Verify camp.
The fact is, Marvel had deep pockets, legally, before being purchased by Disney. We tossed around the ludicrousness of trying to go up against NCSoft early on in this movement. NCSoft is effectively in the same boat WRT Disney. It may seem far-fetched or Machiavellian, but it's damned plausible.
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Well a nice try - however here is the thing - NCSoft would LOVE someone else to shoulder that millstone if that was the case.
If they sold the game to someone else then that entity would also take on the liability. This sounds plausable if you didn't research IP and Copyright laws.
Marvel HAD to sue Cryptic because the game made it possible to recreate Marvel characters. If you do not defend your IP it is considered open game. Marvel sued City of Heroes and got the makers to set filters and a reporting system in place to remove offending characters. At that point Marvel had done its duty by the law and defended its IP.
If someone else was to take on the game they would have to ensure Marvels stuff was safe - if not NCSoft would not have to go after you they could send screenies to Marvel and let them shut you down.
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I don't know about Champions, but DCUO practically begs you to make ripoffs of DC characters. Half the costume pieces in that game are either based on or directly taken from one of their signature characters.
Well, I wouldn't think DC would sue itself for allowing players to make ripoffs of their characters. :P
I was asking, because you can make some decent Marvel ripoffs in DCUO. I don't know how many "Spider-men" I've seen running up walls and such with the acrobatics travel power. So if Marvel still being upset over CoH was why we were shutdown, what's keeping them from "being upset" at Champions or DC, and trying to shut them down too? That's what I was getting at.
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This is actually a pretty old rumor, Joshex. Are you telling us you have some new legit information from a solid source?
Notice how none of the sources for his information was cited, nor links given...? That right there tells me this info is suspect...
I don't know about Champions, but DCUO practically begs you to make ripoffs of DC characters. Half the costume pieces in that game are either based on or directly taken from one of their signature characters.
The difference being that DC is not going to sue themselves because people are making ripoffs of their own characters, because honestly the judge for that case is just going to scratch his head and dismiss the case... Which is why you can even get signature character costume pieces for your characters to wear if you're lucky or rich enough to get the item(Batgirl's cape, or Wonder Girl's belt being just two examples). It was intentional that you be able to mimic the signature characters in DCUO.
So really, the risk isn't in making DC character ripoffs in DCUO, but in making Marvel characters in DCUO. Marvel could technically sue Sony/DC for the same reasons they sued Cryptic/NCSoft if they really wanted. With the Shield Weapon, for instance, someone could easily make some form of Captain America ripoff if they wanted. This is the kind of stuff their Mods need to police against much in the same way CoH's Mods were always handing out "Generic Hero 1103568" names/costumes left and right for a few months straight until people started getting the hint that copyright violations were not tolerated(and continued to do long after as quickly as people would get reported for such violations).
Of course, a big difference between DC's current risk of legal action from Marvel, and Cryptic/NCSofts situation is that DC and Marvel have a much longer history with each other, and know what they can and can't get away with by this point before causing issues with their counterpart, and I believe their lawyers are much better equipped to deal with copyright violation complaints on these scales than Cryptic or NCSoft were(especially in terms of being able to afford the legal costs). That's not to say a lawsuit won't happen over DCUO, but it would be a costly legal battle, and either side would probably rather just let it slide anyways than fight such a grueling battle in court. Besides, despite their differences, it always felt like DC and Marvel have a friendly rivalry, rather than see each other as bitter enemies.
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I'm saying this because I got through to NCSoft corporate in more than I hoped.
months ago when I was reminded about the case between NCSoft and marvel I sent an email to NCSoft corporate asking for information about the case seeing as they have taken down ALL information from thier website regarding it. I asked for a address to send a subpoena to as well.
I was prepared to be ignored as per usual, but recieved a reply with said address. I had to think long and hard and get all the insane ideas I normally come up with off the table for me to figure ot why NCSoft would actually reply and give me an address to appeal to.
why? because they feel they can gain something from it. which in turn suggests that they were truthful when they said they didn't want to shut down CoX, and also implies that what I said above about them wanting to take it gracefully is probably the case.
on other notes, why is CO safe? cause CO is CO.. it has enough criticisms from superhero MMO fans to make it less of a threat in Marvel's mind. that and thier lawyers haven't been able to visually recreate thier characters in as vivid a form as is necessary to justify a lawsuit. bassically, CO is not worth Marvel's time. theres just not that many fans that marvel cares about who play CO.
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i usually feel that the levelheadedness, accuracy, and logical rigor Joshex displays in most posts could serve as examples for others.
Response to bold: ...what??...
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Response to bold: ...what??...
*Floride takes off his tinfoil hat*;D
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8946.msg127984.html#msg127984 (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8946.msg127984.html#msg127984)
"The terms of the settlement were never released."
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I'm sorry but every instinct is telling me Joshex is full of it. I apologize if I am wrong but I honestly don't think I am.
Needless to say it doesn't matter. COH isn't coming back through legit channels. It's just too old for that IMO. And barring a miracle multi-millionaire swooping to the rescue, our best hope is a private server.
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So... that entire conjecture is based on solely the fact that NCSoft gave you an address for their legal department when you asked for it.
Yeah, pretty much what I expected.
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So... that entire conjecture is based on solely the fact that NCSoft gave you an address for their legal department when you asked for it.
Yeah, pretty much what I expected.
I'm not even sure Joshex knows what the word "conjecture" means.
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Wasn't part of the settlement that Cryptic had to develop Marvel's MMO? I thought that's why NCSoft bought the IP and whatnot from Cryptic.
Now that'd be the heck of a lawyer the guy from Marvel who made sending a cease and desist letter whenever Marvel had an MMO as part of the settlement plus making the company you will send said letter to develop your MMO thus making possible... ah well, nevermind, it's pretty obvious, if you call NCSoft offices and someone answers that phone, it surely means... I don't dare guessing what it means, I'm sure it's too scary.
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You asked for an address and you got it. Why?
Perhaps...
...you asked nicely and someone was feeling helpful?
...you suggested that you might have business relevant to the legal department? (You mentioned a subpoena.)
...there are legal requirements or company policy requiring them to provide such information if court business may be involved? (See above. I know where I work, if there's a hint of lawyers, they want the legal office involved immediately.)
...this isn't really a big company secret and you didn't imply that you were just going to harass them over an issue they consider dead and gone? (Has anyone ever tried to get this particular piece of information before?)
There are plenty of explanations that are far simpler than the one you posted. Are any of them necessarily right or wrong? The only person who knows for sure is the one who answered your request.
I certainly wish you all the best in gathering information from NCSoft, and don't want to dissuade you from seeing what else they might be willing to share, but your reports make it very difficult to see the line between the solid information you've obtained and your interpretation of those facts. You're doing a form of research, so structure this sort of post similar to a research paper. Start with what you did and how you did it (Who did you contact? How did you contact them? [phone, email, letter?] What did you say?). Follow up with what you found out, in as straightforward a fashion as possible (Just the facts: Who responded? What did they say? How long did it take to get a reply?), then finish with your interpretation of your findings (I think this means that...). I know how tempting it is to jump to the juicy part, but mixing things as you do makes it very hard to form an independent opinion of the information you've retrieved.
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All I could think of as a reply was' "wild eyed pistol wavers who aren't a fraid to die......."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNw6J9g5ahw
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Who
What
When
Where
How
Answer those as you get to them.
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I certainly wish you all the best in gathering information from NCSoft, and don't want to dissuade you from seeing what else they might be willing to share, but your reports make it very difficult to see the line between the solid information you've obtained and your interpretation of those facts. You're doing a form of research, so structure this sort of post similar to a research paper. Start with what you did and how you did it (Who did you contact? How did you contact them? [phone, email, letter?] What did you say?). Follow up with what you found out, in as straightforward a fashion as possible (Just the facts: Who responded? What did they say? How long did it take to get a reply?), then finish with your interpretation of your findings (I think this means that...). I know how tempting it is to jump to the juicy part, but mixing things as you do makes it very hard to form an independent opinion of the information you've retrieved.
yeah I wished all the information posted about the dealings from now to all the way to the beginning was posted in that structure. Usually it's "wI know a guy that know a guy that know a guy that might have contacted them because *opinion* opinion* *opinion* and they didnt sell because *opinion *opinion* but we cant give details but they wont sell because *opinion *opinion* so NCSOFT is *opininion *opinion*.
I think if it postings of that matter were structed as you suggested, with only facts laid out, then it would be clearer of exactly what happened, what went on, the reason ,the process used, what worked what didnt work, and such. No telling maybe they turned down the offer because the offerer was coming across as a d-wad at any suggestion that benefitted NCSOFT. Who knows.
But they was Joshex structured and said seems to have become the norm. All a person have to do is say, NCSOFT rejected the "reasonable" offer, while never stating what the reasonable offer was or verifying if the offer was in fact reasonable to the seller, and people run with it as NCSOFT is being buttholes. But when it's a reason conjured outside circumstanstial evidence that is not addding to the rumors, opinions and guesses that "prove" ncsoft to be the villain then all of a sudden they want the strictly facts and such proving it. When in reality the facts should matter for both ways or none for both ways.
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So... that entire conjecture is based on solely the fact that NCSoft gave you an address for their legal department when you asked for it.
Yeah, pretty much what I expected.
no, they gave me the legal address for Marvel, and not just a legal department but the department that had handled thier particular case.
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Hi titan, I've been absent a while.
things in my life have gotten very complex since I went back to college, I was intending to take legal actions to try and get CoH back again someway or another, I had a lawyer lined up but havn't had time to contact him (he'll be busy at town hall for a while anyways concerning the library)
oh well lets get this on track to City of heroes as that is where I'm posting it. I have found out some information regarding the shutdown that I intend to share.
the shutdown was due to a combination of factors.
Marvel VS NCSoft : the people at NCSoft would be happy if someone could straighten out that case on better terms. NCSoft was given a ruling by the court that it thought was a win. that seeing as Marvel at that time had no plans for an MMO of it's own NCSoft was not guilty of the charges, but an added implication from that was ignored. "if Marvel ever did develop such software City of Heroes could be served a cease and desist."
and thats what happened and why the shut down was so sudden, marvel served NCSoft with a cease and desist and refrain from conversing publically about the terms.
the case between marvel and NCSoft is still open for appeal. Naturally NCSoft is merely trying to take the verdict gracefully, but outside forces are welcomed.
I have an addess for a subpoena concerning this case supplied by our former overlords. and honestly this problem needs to be cleared up first before we can even enter into talks to get the game back.
also any plan Z projects are baiting Marvel to try and create characters like thiers and take you to court over it. if that happens I would suggest opting to reopen NCSoft's case for a further appeal allong with your own.
it is my understanding of the situation of the attempted talks of buying the IP that Paragon was given a valid price but the terms could not be met, according to this sitation the terms were simply "if you want to do this you need to settle all the discrepencies with marvel or you can't charge money for the game" and paragon's employees did not like that honestly cause they didn't have the time or money to battle Marvel over such a topic. - thats the second issue of the shutdown. the people who needed to act did not have the time nor money to do so.
NCSoft no doubt considered the cost of an appeal and with it's legal costs decided it would cost more than the game typically earns in 3 years (which is what any decent lawyer would advise against) So yes i figure there is some sort of inability to act from NCSoft's financial perspective.
it is my expert opinion that the following should be prepared before Marvel is taken on, 3 carefully prepared characters from other series and or custom made characters who are in direct violation of Marvel's likeness rights, then prepare short and decisive placating comments to illustrate that the concept of your character is entirely just emotion and feeling because those are things no company can legally own. the characters should be an expression of feelings. thats the start of the appeal.
after that you need to state that although characters similar to marvel's trademarks could be made in city, they were not made often and the moment the moderators find out the character will be 'nerfed'. now I will note this was only touched on briefly in NCSoft's case and the wording was not made to make it a definite argument against Marvel's claims so it may be a nice trump card. (moderators delete this bit if you feel necessary)
if you can prove that said costume combinations are illegal in game, you also need to prove that marvel does not exclusively own the trademark or copyrights to certain aspects such as wolvarine's claws or the hulk's green rage form. for that you'll need other prepublished characters who also untilize these 'trademark aspects'. they wont be hard to find. beastboy gorrilla form rage anyone? good old freddy kruger?
I can't say i'll definitely be able to do this as I might have to go to china soon.. so I'm dropping in all the information I have incase anyone else would like to help straighten this out.
(https://i.imgur.com/4XbdmS7.jpg)
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Some of you guys are just flat out rude. He is simply stating his opinion maybe he does feel like this is factual. If you want to prove it's not then do that without insulting the guy, dang! I for one try not to come here much, mostly because I get sick of the bickering. I am highly skeptical of whatever Joshex is attempting to state but if he believes it then let him prove it. I'm not gonna waste time and try and ridicule him for whatever reason. I will however log in and take up for someone if I feel like they are being attacked. So stop already, he offered some information if you believe it you do if not you don't. Comment on that, but don't insult someone for trying to dig up something about this game cause many have given up period! Also another sidenote I feel like alot of people within this community feel like they always have to prove how smart they are and often at times use their ability to type abusively. Be careful with your words and stop bullying. In the words of Sweet Brown "Ain't nobody got time for that!"
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Response to bold: ...what??...
Examples take many forms...
Good examples: "You see that? That's how it should be done."
Bad examples: "You see that? Never, ever, ever, EVER do that."
Mediocre examples: "You see that? It's good enough, but not great."
Inexplicable, sanity-rending examples: "You see that? What is that I don't even..."
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Examples take many forms...
Good examples: "You see that? That's how it should be done."
Bad examples: "You see that? Never, ever, ever, EVER do that."
Mediocre examples: "You see that? It's good enough, but not great."
Inexplicable, sanity-rending examples: "You see that? What is that I don't even..."
good point.
Everything and anything can be a lesson.
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no, they gave me the legal address for Marvel, and not just a legal department but the department that had handled thier particular case.
Well...yeah. Of course they did. You asked for information about the case with Marvel, implying that you wanted to send them a subpoena. The case is no longer their problem, so yeah, they would have given you Marvel's address to send you along on your merry way.
And guys? Mazz is right. Whatever else you might think of his theory, he's still one of us. Let's play nice, huh?
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Who
What
When
Where
How
Answer those as you get to them.
Tsk-tsk. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ws)
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If by that logic, why doesn't World of Warcarft get sued by Marvel? I'm sure there's a gadzillion Conan, Thor look-a-likes in that game.
Something doesn't jell with me about that theory...especially since CoH had the Generic'd Police clamping down any trademarks, even in AE.
Anyway, the retail store I work at , the best selling game right now is the new version of GTA.
Call of Duty, Halo, and Walking Dead...........No one ever talks about Marvel Heroes or DCUO.
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More interestingly, the new Marvel one is free to play with some DLC, which I've noticed lately was reduced. Also they closed CoX in November but the Marvel game didn't come out til June or July of this year, can't imagine a reason to close so much earlier and as can be seen it hasn't made us hungry for their game.
If by that logic, why doesn't World of Warcarft get sued by Marvel? I'm sure there's a gadzillion Conan, Thor look-a-likes in that game.
Something doesn't jell with me about that theory...especially since CoH had the Generic'd Police clamping down any trademarks, even in AE.
Anyway, the retail store I work at , the best selling game right now is the new version of GTA.
Call of Duty, Halo, and Walking Dead...........No one ever talks about Marvel Heroes or DCUO.
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I remember seeing this:
http://www.gamegirladvance.com/2005/02/city-of-copies-marvel-vs-nc-soft.html
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I can't say I believe it but you could probably get a better result Joshex if you posted the reply. Although emails are easily forged so people probably still will question it.
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Good detective work Josh, keep it up.
We're all counting on you.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg256%2F7113%2Frabbiter8.jpg)
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Some of you guys are just flat out rude. He is simply stating his opinion maybe he does feel like this is factual. If you want to prove it's not then do that without insulting the guy, dang! I for one try not to come here much, mostly because I get sick of the bickering. I am highly skeptical of whatever Joshex is attempting to state but if he believes it then let him prove it. I'm not gonna waste time and try and ridicule him for whatever reason. I will however log in and take up for someone if I feel like they are being attacked. So stop already, he offered some information if you believe it you do if not you don't. Comment on that, but don't insult someone for trying to dig up something about this game cause many have given up period! Also another sidenote I feel like alot of people within this community feel like they always have to prove how smart they are and often at times use their ability to type abusively. Be careful with your words and stop bullying. In the words of Sweet Brown "Ain't nobody got time for that!"
First of all no one is "bullying" Joshex in this thread. Second of all he has a history of making inane posts that make wild leaps of sanity (I am loathe to use the word logic) all with the result of getting people's hopes up with false or totally misinterpreted information. He needs to be called out on it because otherwise people might think he's actually informed in some way which he is not.
The bottom line is, despite his claims to the contrary, Joshex has no special insight into the workings of NC Soft, he is not doing anything remotely relevant to bringing back city of heroes and he's likely laughing at any and every person who buys his logic devoid posts. I'm not being mean here. I am not bullying. I am stating the facts as I see them. Joshex has never posted anything relevant in regards to the return of COH as far as I have seen. It would be irresponsible to simply let him continue to post his fiction unchallenged and let others build false hope based on his posts. The only thing Joshex's posts tell us is that he has a grasp of coding... and its not as firm a grasp as other posters such as Codewalker.
And speaking of Codewalker... if you want to place hope in someone look to him. HE is actually doing work that can help bring us COH in some form. HIS posts show that he knows what he's talking about. HE doesn't make grandiose claims using leaps of sanity to try and portray a fiction and a bad fiction at that. If I seem a little terse its because I disike being called a bully about as much as I dislike someone deceiving people I care about. And I care about this community.
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Hi Kyriani. What's up? *Hugs* So yeah, Josh makes crazy posts. Everyone knows it. Josh knows it. He knows we know it. It's good, mutual entertainment. From what I've seen of Titan staff's replies, they're pretty much on the same page as most of us. Sorry you never got the memo, but you shouldn't be this serious about it. Don't mess up Josh's vibes, yo. Also, that's clever what you did there. You said a bunch of mean, Internet Gestapo things and then said you just stated facts as you see them. That's pretty cool. I've never seen that before ever on Internet forumz lolololol.
Mazz, what bickering are you talking about? There's a lot of pretty cordial conversation around here, and most of the arguments are polite (insofar as impassioned arguments can be polite, but you should really have a thick skin around forums anyway). Seriously these forums are pretty chill. Most of the high maintenance people have moved on, leaving the rest of us to relax and answer that age-old question, what happens after the end of the world?
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Hi Kyriani. What's up? *Hugs* So yeah, Josh makes crazy posts. Everyone knows it. Josh knows it. He knows we know it. It's good, mutual entertainment. From what I've seen of Titan staff's replies, they're pretty much on the same page as most of us. Sorry you never got the memo, but you shouldn't be this serious about it. Don't mess up Josh's vibes, yo. Also, that's clever what you did there. You said a bunch of mean, Internet Gestapo things and then said you just stated facts as you see them. That's pretty cool. I've never seen that before ever on Internet forumz lolololol.
Mazz, what bickering are you talking about? There's a lot of pretty cordial conversation around here, and most of the arguments are polite (insofar as impassioned arguments can be polite, but you should really have a thick skin around forums anyway). Seriously these forums are pretty chill. Most of the high maintenance people have moved on, leaving the rest of us to relax and answer that age-old question, what happens after the end of the world?
I apologize if my post seems "filled with internet gestapo stuff". I just don't find misinformation "entertaining". I'll leave it to others to respond to Joshex in the future then if I take him "too seriously".
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I apologize if my post seems "filled with internet gestapo stuff". I just don't find misinformation "entertaining". I'll leave it to others to respond to Joshex in the future then if I take him "too seriously".
You know what, both of our posts are breaking forum rules. I loathe misinformation too, but calling people out isn't our job, and this is like a three-car pileup. So, apologies for calling you out instead of sending a PM or notifying the Internet police or something. Or just posting a picture.
Well people, you know what they say. If you can't set a good example, then at least be a horrible warning. *Stands proudly*
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img24.imageshack.us%2Fimg24%2F8245%2Fuvq2.jpg)
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You know what, both of our posts are breaking forum rules. I loathe misinformation too, but calling people out isn't our job, and this is like a three-car pileup. So, apologies for calling you out instead of sending a PM or notifying the Internet police or something. Or just posting a picture.
Well people, you know what they say. If you can't set a good example, then at least be a horrible warning. *Stands proudly*
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img24.imageshack.us%2Fimg24%2F8245%2Fuvq2.jpg)
Now see THAT I find entertaining ^_^
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Thank you :D
Now back to the topic at hand:
Josh U SO CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
zy
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yeah, quote frankly there is lot of "misinformation" floating around. For a lot that know about game building coding and ect. there seem to be lack of understanding sometimes between the basic difference between ownership and license.
A lot of the different information is no different than the information and validity between National Enquirer and Star.
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yeah, quote frankly there is lot of "misinformation" floating around. For a lot that know about game building coding and ect. there seem to be lack of understanding sometimes between the basic difference between ownership and license.
A lot of the different information is no different than the information and validity between National Enquirer and Star.
I guess NCsoft is kind of like a shotgun in that respect. They pulled the trigger on November 30th, 2012. Buck shot bird shot or slug shot, the ammo sent a spray that apparently hit a few places :)
The hits being the community searching for information.
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I guess NCsoft is kind of like a shotgun in that respect. They pulled the trigger on November 30th, 2012. Buck shot bird shot or slug shot, the ammo sent a spray that apparently hit a few places :)
The hits being the community searching for information.
yeah.
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I just want to say that I think it's a pretty dubious standard to consider Joshex's initial post fine while suggesting Kyriani is being the 'Internet Gestapo' for raising doubt about his claims. Now maybe Joshex is correct in his conspiracy theories, but as far as I'm concerned the most likely options are either:
1 - He actually believes these conspiracy theories and tends to over think things to try and fit a conspiracy.
2 - He doesn't believe these things and finds it amusing to muck about with the community.
If 1 is true then I think it's better for Joshex to point out that a lot of these theories really aren't the most likely or realistic thing. Just sitting back and laughing quietly doesn't seem to be a terribly helpful reaction.
If 2 is true then that's pretty cruel given how many people are keen to latch on to any shred of hope about the game. I don't think encouraging others to be led up those rabbitholes is terribly worthwhile even if Joshex is being satirical.
Especially when these things come on the Titan forums I think injecting the occasional dose of skepticism is for the best. I saw the thread a while back where Joshex was talking about people needing to keep their game discs and suggesting that as a way to get their game back. And there were people there taking it as an exciting thing and linking their hope to things Titan has done already.
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I saw the thread a while back where Joshex was talking about people needing to keep their game discs and suggesting that as a way to get their game back. And there were people there taking it as an exciting thing and linking their hope to things Titan has done already.
Wait. So it's NOT incredibly important for me to keep my original purchased game box for secret reasons that will be revealed at some future time?
Damn. I just found mine a few days ago.
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I just want to say that I think it's a pretty dubious standard to consider Joshex's initial post fine while suggesting Kyriani is being the 'Internet Gestapo' for raising doubt about his claims. Now maybe Joshex is correct in his conspiracy theories, but as far as I'm concerned the most likely options are either:
1 - He actually believes these conspiracy theories and tends to over think things to try and fit a conspiracy.
2 - He doesn't believe these things and finds it amusing to muck about with the community.
If 1 is true then I think it's better for Joshex to point out that a lot of these theories really aren't the most likely or realistic thing. Just sitting back and laughing quietly doesn't seem to be a terribly helpful reaction.
If 2 is true then that's pretty cruel given how many people are keen to latch on to any shred of hope about the game. I don't think encouraging others to be led up those rabbitholes is terribly worthwhile even if Joshex is being satirical.
Especially when these things come on the Titan forums I think injecting the occasional dose of skepticism is for the best. I saw the thread a while back where Joshex was talking about people needing to keep their game discs and suggesting that as a way to get their game back. And there were people there taking it as an exciting thing and linking their hope to things Titan has done already.
The thing is that I find a double standard is that things like Joshex is questioned while other things some with even less evidence than Joshex is taken without question. It looks like a matter of not what is said, but who says it. I bet if TonyV said things like Joshex, and no offense to Tony, many of his posts have had even less evidence than Joshex and not a single person questioned the validity and if he said what Joshex said I bet not a single person again would question it.
I think it's odd to have a standard that Joshex must show evidence and validity or else passed off as conspiracy while anything that is designed to make NCSOFT look bad or whip up anger towards then is automatically taken without question as truth.
The way I see what Joshex said is as likely to be true as the other "down with NCSOFT" and they did it with malicious intent stuff that have been said without questioning and challenge as both do not provide must evidence and seem to be based off of whipped up conspiracy. Just that one type is accepted and the other for some reason is questioned.
And while "oh don't want people linking their hope to stuff like that." well the other stuff so far ain't exactly worked out like the linking of hope that some major corporation is just going to jump on our side, and save the day. Twice. And from the looks of it, and evidence or lack of that entire thing could have been a big hoax judging by the evidence they can provide which is even less than the info that Joshex present most of the time.
so yeah in a way, jumping on one theory but totally ignore and don't challenge the other theory or taking the other theory as fact with equal or even less evidence is in a way playing "Internet Gestapo"
Like people from the get go been saying a lot of this stuff is small chance of succeeding. But then, guess what they got flamed, called being defeatist, told to leave, accused of not supporting the cause. Then later when Tony V say the same thing, that it's small chance, they praise him up and down and call it "being realistic." When not long ago, it was called being defeatist.
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The thing is that I find a double standard is that things like Joshex is questioned while other things some with even less evidence than Joshex is taken without question. It looks like a matter of not what is said, but who says it. I bet if TonyV said things like Joshex, and no offense to Tony, many of his posts have had even less evidence than Joshex and not a single person questioned the validity and if he said what Joshex said I bet not a single person again would question it.
I think it's odd to have a standard that Joshex must show evidence and validity or else passed off as conspiracy while anything that is designed to make NCSOFT look bad or whip up anger towards then is automatically taken without question as truth.
The way I see what Joshex said is as likely to be true as the other "down with NCSOFT" and they did it with malicious intent stuff that have been said without questioning and challenge as both do not provide must evidence and seem to be based off of whipped up conspiracy. Just that one type is accepted and the other for some reason is questioned.
And while "oh don't want people linking their hope to stuff like that." well the other stuff so far ain't exactly worked out like the linking of hope that some major corporation is just going to jump on our side, and save the day. Twice. And from the looks of it, and evidence or lack of that entire thing could have been a big hoax judging by the evidence they can provide which is even less than the info that Joshex present most of the time.
so yeah in a way, jumping on one theory but totally ignore and don't challenge the other theory or taking the other theory as fact with equal or even less evidence is in a way playing "Internet Gestapo"
Being that I know Tony going on six years now (through the wiki, through Titan, and eventually through Facebook), and he has a history of not just saying random pancake and then not following through with it, I *do* (and everyone should) give him a huge amount of leeway. He never spouts off conspiracy theories (unless it's very obvious he's joking).
Joshex has a HISTORY here at Titan of wacko conspiracy theories, like tinfoil hat kind. He also has a history of saying things and then whatever he was saying goes the way of the dodo and is never updated (aforementioned "save your discs, I'm not telling why, teehee, something important") Like, and I mean this literally, almost from the day he joined.
Other people? For sure if I read the thread and there's unfounded stuff being spouted, I will *and have* stepped in to reign in things and make sure people know what's known and what's just "saying stuff". However, if I don't read the thread I can't make any statements, so if you think something needs to be said to someone, report it. If you think something's getting out of hand, report it. If you think something doesn't belong here, or needs to be moved, or needs to be edited, report it. That's why we've got that button.
BTW, I have REPEATEDLY deleted/locked/edited "down with NCSOFT" threads and posts because we have specific places for that kind of thing. And if it is too vitriolic, it's simply deleted or locked. Don't act like it doesn't happen, because I know for a fact it does - *I* am the one doing it! (And Eabrace, Tony, et al.)
EDIT: Also, please don't get me wrong when I tell you to stuff a big one in it regarding TFHM; VV, Rae, etc.'s efforts in that is and always will be more than any of you (including me) have ever done. I can pretty much guarantee it.
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Being that I know Tony going on six years now (through the wiki, through Titan, and eventually through Facebook), and he has a history of not just saying random pancake and then not following through with it, I *do* (and everyone should) give him a huge amount of leeway. He never spouts off conspiracy theories (unless it's very obvious he's joking).
Joshex has a HISTORY here at Titan of wacko conspiracy theories, like tinfoil hat kind. He also has a history of saying things and then whatever he was saying goes the way of the dodo and is never updated (aforementioned "save your discs, I'm not telling why, teehee, something important") Like, and I mean this literally, almost from the day he joined.
Other people? For sure if I read the thread and there's unfounded stuff being spouted, I will *and have* stepped in to reign in things and make sure people know what's known and what's just "saying stuff". However, if I don't read the thread I can't make any statements, so if you think something needs to be said to someone, report it. If you think something's getting out of hand, report it. If you think something doesn't belong here, or needs to be moved, or needs to be edited, report it. That's why we've got that button.
BTW, I have REPEATEDLY deleted/locked/edited "down with NCSOFT" threads and posts because we have specific places for that kind of thing. And if it is too vitriolic, it's simply deleted or locked. Don't act like it doesn't happen, because I know for a fact it does - *I* am the one doing it! (And Eabrace, Tony, et al.)
EDIT: Also, please don't get me wrong when I tell you to stuff a big one in it regarding TFHM; VV, Rae, etc.'s efforts in that is and always will be more than any of you (including me) have ever done. I can pretty much guarantee it.
yeah I seen you edited but I guess I chose the wrong words. For example, not many people if any question when someone say, "NCSOFT shut down the game because they want to be evil corporation". None that I seen even asked so much for evidence. But when someone say, "it was a business decision, then they are expected to pull just about every financial report and get grilled for evidence supporting it. yes, there is a place for "down with NCSOFT", but is there a place "For NCSOFT"?
And that is what I'm getting at. You know Tony, but not everyone do. Thus only thing many people know of tony and the rest is what they post on here. And even still, the extra leeway, thing, sure, but still if evidence is required for one, it should be required for the other otherwise it is a double standard.
With TFHM, and don't get me wrong, I use Tony as example because I like Tony that way no one can accuse me of pointing someone out merely because I don't like them. TFHM, if over all, from what they can and or have evidence wise of their efforts is basically hear say and lacking. Yet it don't get questioned. Yet, if someone else say something that have the same or in some cases more evidence but still lacking, then it's a problem. Double standard.
Yes some people know them personally, just as someone probably know Joshex personally.
For example if I madea post saying "I called NCSOFT and they said they have no plans for the IP at all." I can all but guarantee not many people would question it and run with it as truth without a sliver of evidence. Because that is what many already want to believe.
But if I said with same amount of evidence "I called NCSOFT and they said they might sell but have plans for the future." I bet I probably get questioned up and down and probably no evidence would be good enough until I drag the CEO here and force him to confess and or have video of the convo. Because that is what many do not want to believe. Which begs the question of why would evidence be required for one but not the other?
And as I said, a lot have to do with not what is said but many times who is saying it. As you said yourself, you give Tony more leeway. I'm not saying it's bad it's is what it is. And thus it is. A lot of stuff Tony said 90% of it isn't anything new. People been saying it since the announcement but the reaction have been night and day.
NCSOFT as some evil corporation or evidence that they just want to hold onto the IP out of spite or just to be evil, or they have no plan for the IP, all have been suggested without evidence and mostly been allowed without questioning of the validity. To me those things are just as much as a conspiracy as much as anything Joshex have said. Yet he get labeled with tinfoil hat while the other things are ran with as either true or great possible truth without question and those that do question it, is looked at as if they are not supporting the cause or in bed with NCSOFT. Although you and your team have been keeping it even level.
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I can't speak for anyone else here, but whether I believe in what someone posts is not based on what they are claiming in a given thread but, rather, on their history of posts over time. I don't know anyone else on this forum personally (at least, not as far as I'm aware), but I have built up assessments of the trustworthiness of individuals based on how logical and well thought out their points are, as well as whether their posts tend to stir the hornets' nest or try to calm it. Tony is always, ALWAYS calm and rational, giving specific facts when he can and explaining why when he can't share some information. He also has a long history of supporting the game through Titan Network, the activities of which have given him more insight into the background of CoX than most people here have. I have never once seen him say anything irrational or incendiary on these forums, and I trust him implicitly. On the other hand, there are other people whose posts I generally skip, because they consistently make wild claims with no evidence or seem to want primarily to just draw attention to themselves. I always start everyone off at neutral and let their own words form my opinion of them. Whether they are for or against NCSoft never comes into the picture.
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It's not so much a matter of who as it is who is posting such conspiracy theories REPEATEDLY.
If I see an odd post here or there that's out in left field I tend to ignore it. I am sure others do as well. We grin and move on. But when people keep seeing the SAME PERSON posting the SAME NONSENSE over and over, it can start to become grating.
We all want COH back so very badly. It HURTS to have those heartstrings tugged with false hope. Hell it hurts just waiting for some word on any private server project.
I honestly think Joshex might believe his posts. He comes across as overly enthusiastic and young. I've been that person before so I've mostly ignored his posts until this one. If he's actually just someone trolling us to see how many he can dupe into believing his nonsense, I'd feel less inclined to hold my tongue -_-
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Perhaps it's the simple fact that ultimately, Tony runs this server and not anyone else. (PR Rep crawls out: "That's wrong, Tahq, Titan Network is for ev-" Yeah I know.) He speaks, we tend to listen, which means Tony has to be VERY careful about what he says, IF he says anything at all. We're all a little quiet these days.
All things being equal, of course, I have no idea what qualification Joshex has to say what he does. Probably just as much as if I have said it, and I'd expect the same response from all of you. (Generally, FUD and GTFO-Bai.)
I don't feel it's fair though to call it a double standard. For that to be true, there has to be a defining factor among the groups occupying both sides... "Site Owners" vs. "Everyone else" isn't a double standard, because that last group has nothing in common to be described. (COH players? Last I checked anyone can still make an account on Titan Network, and there's no way anymore to validate any of us played in the past.)
Matt Miller said it best, and he's as much of an expert on the shutdown as any of us: There are many answers to this, but in the end, NCsoft simply no longer wanted to run Paragon Studios for reasons that may never be completely understood by any single person. (http://www.onrpg.com/articles/metas-verse-interview-with-melissa-bianco-and-matt-miller-on-city-of-heroes/ (http://www.onrpg.com/articles/metas-verse-interview-with-melissa-bianco-and-matt-miller-on-city-of-heroes/)) Tin hats and jack-assery aside, that's the only answer we're going to ever get.
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Matt Miller said it best, and he's as much of an expert on the shutdown as any of us: There are many answers to this, but in the end, NCsoft simply no longer wanted to run Paragon Studios for reasons that may never be completely understood by any single person. (http://www.onrpg.com/articles/metas-verse-interview-with-melissa-bianco-and-matt-miller-on-city-of-heroes/ (http://www.onrpg.com/articles/metas-verse-interview-with-melissa-bianco-and-matt-miller-on-city-of-heroes/)) Tin hats and jack-assery aside, that's the only answer we're going to ever get.
Exactly.
Which is why I'm simply curious of why are reasons like NCSOFT did it to be mean, or they are evil, and etc is taken as truth and unquestioned, but when others reasons for shut down is posted it's questioned and need evidence and considered tin foil hat.
Just observation.
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Wonder all you want. Just know that any revelations past what we already know aren't coming from here. It'll be out of these forums.
Go hunt. Let us know what you find.*
* Share links if you find something. Blogs, Comments from the public, "Dude With a Website" type pages, and one-person companies don't qualify as "Sources." Joshex didn't violate any of that, but can't prove anything he says is true either. (Unwilling or unable, also anyone's guess. Both lead to the same outcome.)
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Exactly.
Which is why I'm simply curious of why are reasons like NCSOFT did it to be mean, or they are evil, and etc is taken as truth and unquestioned, but when others reasons for shut down is posted it's questioned and need evidence and considered tin foil hat.
Just observation.
That's not really relevant to this discussion is it though? If you think that people elsewhere have made claims about the shutdown that were wrong or overly critical of NCSoft then you're welcome to address those points. Personally I don't like how the shutdown was handled for a variety of reasons, but I'm sure they had reasons that at least made sense to them in house.
But having at some point seen comments you disagreed with go unchallenged isn't itself a reason to complain when other people do challenge Joshex's reasoning. And for the record I see plenty of people debating the exact reasons why NCSoft shut down City of Heroes and exactly how 'evil' they were for doing so. I just don't think the reasoning that Joshex used here seems plausible.
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That's not really relevant to this discussion is it though? If you think that people elsewhere have made claims about the shutdown that were wrong or overly critical of NCSoft then you're welcome to address those points. Personally I don't like how the shutdown was handled for a variety of reasons, but I'm sure they had reasons that at least made sense to them in house.
But having at some point seen comments you disagreed with go unchallenged isn't itself a reason to complain when other people do challenge Joshex's reasoning. And for the record I see plenty of people debating the exact reasons why NCSoft shut down City of Heroes and exactly how 'evil' they were for doing so. I just don't think the reasoning that Joshex used here seems plausible.
I'm not complaining. Just stating observations.
And who said I disagreed with those comments that went unchallenged? I said no such thing. Don't put words in my mouth.
And I think it's relevant to why is one view or one person's statement without lack of evidence is allowed but statements that enhance or go along with negative view of NCSOFT is allowed without challenge.
Which also leads to the question of outside what NCSOFT and Matt said, what is it that we do know about the situation?
And how is all this relevant? Because overall, we have not the slightest clue about it outside what NCSOFT said about it in relevant to their reason and thus, any reason that have been stated outside of what was released to the public by them is as much of a conspiracy theory as anything Joshex said, unless there is evidence to prove otherwise. Thus why should one get more flack more than the next guy? That questioned mostly been answered in why. But it does not erase the fact that it happens. Not saying it's good or bad or what not. Just an observation. Nothing more nothing less.
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I made a joke but then read the whole page here and reconsidered. Some good points here that are worth reading seriously.
So instead of a bad joke, have some pie instead.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg713%2F8065%2F9x3.gif)
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I'm not complaining. Just stating observations.
And who said I disagreed with those comments that went unchallenged? I said no such thing. Don't put words in my mouth.
And I think it's relevant to why is one view or one person's statement without lack of evidence is allowed but statements that enhance or go along with negative view of NCSOFT is allowed without challenge.
Which also leads to the question of outside what NCSOFT and Matt said, what is it that we do know about the situation?
And how is all this relevant? Because overall, we have not the slightest clue about it outside what NCSOFT said about it in relevant to their reason and thus, any reason that have been stated outside of what was released to the public by them is as much of a conspiracy theory as anything Joshex said, unless there is evidence to prove otherwise. Thus why should one get more flack more than the next guy? That questioned mostly been answered in why. But it does not erase the fact that it happens. Not saying it's good or bad or what not. Just an observation. Nothing more nothing less.
I personally consider saying that people are operating under a double standard to be a complaint. If you're going to say people are operating under a double standard then I think it's fair to articulate just what that is. And if you didn't disagree about the comments that went unchallenged then I'm not really sure what the argument is. People are going to agree with well founded opinions and disagree with opinions that are not, that isn't a double standard in itself.
That said I don't see any double standard here. Simply agreeing with Tony's interpretation (or anyone else) and disagreeing with Joshex isn't a double standard. You're making an assumption that people are merely taking any statements from either party on faith which is a rather uncharitable view I think. All this indicates is that people believe that speculation from others has been more well founded than the speculation that they've seen from Joshex. That isn't anything to do with positive or negative views of NCSoft, it's to do with people evaluating information and coming to their own conclusions.
Well-founded speculation about something is not a conspiracy theory. It's not a conspiracy theory to form a view of something that you do not personally have full knowledge of. Certainly some people take rabid dislike of NCSoft too far and I certainly agree with that. But I don't think that anybody here has disagreed with Joshex simply because he's saying NCSoft may not have been at fault. The disagreement is because of how that conclusion was reached.
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I personally consider saying that people are operating under a double standard to be a complaint. If you're going to say people are operating under a double standard then I think it's fair to articulate just what that is. And if you didn't disagree about the comments that went unchallenged then I'm not really sure what the argument is. People are going to agree with well founded opinions and disagree with opinions that are not, that isn't a double standard in itself.
That said I don't see any double standard here. Simply agreeing with Tony's interpretation (or anyone else) and disagreeing with Joshex isn't a double standard. You're making an assumption that people are merely taking any statements from either party on faith which is a rather uncharitable view I think. All this indicates is that people believe that speculation from others has been more well founded than the speculation that they've seen from Joshex. That isn't anything to do with positive or negative views of NCSoft, it's to do with people evaluating information and coming to their own conclusions.
Well-founded speculation about something is not a conspiracy theory. It's not a conspiracy theory to form a view of something that you do not personally have full knowledge of. Certainly some people take rabid dislike of NCSoft too far and I certainly agree with that. But I don't think that anybody here has disagreed with Joshex simply because he's saying NCSoft may not have been at fault. The disagreement is because of how that conclusion was reached.
*sigh* not every thing is an argument.
"People are going to agree with well founded opinions and disagree with opinions that are not"
Ideally yes. But with all the reasons out there, mostly in the negative view of NCSOFT that seem to get the most agreement and taken as truth, are they actually well founded? Then again maybe it's the threshold of what is considered well founded that is different. There are people that say NCSOFT is planning on sitting on the IP like a vulture. I don't recall many posts challenging that even though there is no evidence that said NCSOFT plans on doing such a thing.
Or many say that NCSOFT saying they couldn't find a suitable buyer is false. But how do they know? Yet, they didn't get much challenge. But someone suggest that they may not be able to sale due to marvel lawsuit, it's an empty conspiracy. When in reality, none of the mentioned have any evidence to show their respective point and the prior two, it wasn't even asked for them to show any sort of evidence that they are not just creating conspiracy. It may not be double standard but it sure as hell isn't the same standard.
Things that reinforce their idea is more likely to be taken up as truth while those that don't will be challenged.
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But someone suggest that they may not be able to sale due to marvel lawsuit, it's an empty conspiracy.
That is NOT what Joshex said. He said they won't be able to sell because Marvel's lawsuit is an active deterrent, because NCsoft is/was talking about it publicly. Neither of those are true, provably. NCsoft and Marvel settled out of court; this is all over the internet, a basic Google search will give you these results, it's not a guess. "Settled out of court" means the lawsuit is filed and done (not active). Additionally, NCsoft has never said anything about the lawsuit since saying it was completed and settled out of court.
In the meantime, he intersperses these lies false statements with total conjecture, using the phrase "in my expert opinion" - which is laughable at best.
This is why we disagree with him. It's not an expert opinion. He's saying false things - provably false things - and then rambling about things he's definitely not an expert in.
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That is NOT what Joshex said. He said they won't be able to sell because Marvel's lawsuit is an active deterrent, because NCsoft is/was talking about it publicly. Neither of those are true, provably. NCsoft and Marvel settled out of court; this is all over the internet, a basic Google search will give you these results, it's not a guess. "Settled out of court" means the lawsuit is filed and done (not active). Additionally, NCsoft has never said anything about the lawsuit since saying it was completed and settled out of court.
In the meantime, he intersperses these lies false statements with total conjecture, using the phrase "in my expert opinion" - which is laughable at best.
This is why we disagree with him. It's not an expert opinion. He's saying false things - provably false things - and then rambling about things he's definitely not an expert in.
yep the case been settled out of court. But do anyone know what those settlement terms were and or are? For all we know it, one or some of the terms of that agreement from the settlement could be one of the things that is kinking up a sale. It may not be.
Unless someone know exactly what the terms of the settlement were, then I don't think it can be said in a clear precise manner that it is or is not something that affects the sale.
Yeah, claiming to be an expert is near meaningless on the internet now and days. Lot of claimed experts on stuff, from software building, but somehow don't understand the difference between ownership and license, to experts on running a business yet no known businesses in their portfolio.
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*sigh* not every thing is an argument.
I said that's what the argument is, not that we're having an argument. An argument is just a discussion involving different point of views, you've arguing a point and I'm arguing a point. It doesn't mean that people are having a shouting match.
Ideally yes. But with all the reasons out there, mostly in the negative view of NCSOFT that seem to get the most agreement and taken as truth, are they actually well founded? Then again maybe it's the threshold of what is considered well founded that is different. There are people that say NCSOFT is planning on sitting on the IP like a vulture. I don't recall many posts challenging that even though there is no evidence that said NCSOFT plans on doing such a thing.
Or many say that NCSOFT saying they couldn't find a suitable buyer is false. But how do they know? Yet, they didn't get much challenge. But someone suggest that they may not be able to sale due to marvel lawsuit, it's an empty conspiracy. When in reality, none of the mentioned have any evidence to show their respective point and the prior two, it wasn't even asked for them to show any sort of evidence that they are not just creating conspiracy. It may not be double standard but it sure as hell isn't the same standard.
It's not the same standard because you're talking about very different things. Saying that NCSoft is going to sit on the IP like a vulture is a prediction, it's the opinion that somebody has about the future, nobody can know whether it's right or wrong at this point. Joshex's initial post in this thread is about events in the past however, that's an appreciably different situation. If you're saying "this is what happened in the past" then you need to show some kind of evidence for that belief if you want it to be believed by others. If you say "this is what I think will happen in the future" then that's just a guess, people know you're not saying this is what happened, you're predicting what may happen.
The discussion about suitable buyers is a bit different as well since that hinges mostly on who somebody would consider to be 'suitable'. It's not surprising that generates angst because NCSoft and individuals are going to have a different idea on what suitable is.
Things that reinforce their idea is more likely to be taken up as truth while those that don't will be challenged.
Well yeah. People are more likely to challenge ideas they disagree with than they are to challenge ideas they agree with. I don't think that's something to worry about is it?
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I said that's what the argument is, not that we're having an argument. An argument is just a discussion involving different point of views, you've arguing a point and I'm arguing a point. It doesn't mean that people are having a shouting match.
It's not the same standard because you're talking about very different things. Saying that NCSoft is going to sit on the IP like a vulture is a prediction, it's the opinion that somebody has about the future, nobody can know whether it's right or wrong at this point. Joshex's initial post in this thread is about events in the past however, that's an appreciably different situation. If you're saying "this is what happened in the past" then you need to show some kind of evidence for that belief if you want it to be believed by others. If you say "this is what I think will happen in the future" then that's just a guess, people know you're not saying this is what happened, you're predicting what may happen.
The discussion about suitable buyers is a bit different as well since that hinges mostly on who somebody would consider to be 'suitable'. It's not surprising that generates angst because NCSoft and individuals are going to have a different idea on what suitable is.
Well yeah. People are more likely to challenge ideas they disagree with than they are to challenge ideas they agree with. I don't think that's something to worry about is it?
Well it would have fit the prediction definition if it was in fact stated as I think this will happen in the future compared to how it has been stated of NCSOFT is sitting on the IP. And while it may be seem o nthe surface the marvel thing is done and over with, it may not be depending on the terms of the settlement which can last for years or could be a one time thing that is in fact over with. How much does it have on the IP who knows. Joshex guess is as good as any I seen around here. Each just guessed unless someone works in the decision making circle of NCSOFT that is able to say. It's all just guess work. Not facts. And really cant even be measured which is nearer to the fact or which is further until the facts are actually known.
And yeah even suitable have differing meanings. And none can be stated as a fact either way. Which is the point I'm making even if one may look plausible to one and less plausible to another or vice versa. As far as we know, the closest to the truth if not the truth, from the people that would know for a fact, is that they have not been able to find a suitable buyer. Yet people have stated there have been suitable buyers as if it's a fact that those buyers were actually suitable. Maybe suitable to them, but in those terms probably not suitable to the seller which they already stated is or rather was the case.
"Well yeah. People are more likely to challenge ideas they disagree with than they are to challenge ideas they agree with. I don't think that's something to worry about is it?"
As I said, just an observation. Not saying anything wrong with it either way.
Well I jumped the gun on what you meant by argument and glad you realize that argument also mean that, a mere discussion. Usually when the word argument is thrown around here it usually mean attacks and personal insults are about to follow.
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Can we lock this thread?
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Party pooper. :-\
Josh is in the middle of his investigation....
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I guess NCsoft is kind of like a shotgun in that respect. They pulled the trigger on November 30th, 2012. Buck shot bird shot or slug shot, the ammo sent a spray that apparently hit a few places :)
The hits being the community searching for information.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5493439 (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5493439)
From post #218:
"They were legally required to give a minimum of 90 days notice by the laws of the State of California. And that's all that was preventing them from shutting down and pulling the plug on Aug 31st."
Sounds legit, any truth to this?
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According to the user agreement and the manual, yes.
The first MMO to put the 90-day disclaimer on their box (they actually put it on their box) was the granddaddy, Ultima Online, 16 years ago. Every MMO since that I have played has also put it somewhere on their stuff.
I have never known whether it was due to a law, or due to the fact that if MMOs just blinked out of existence when the publishers were done, PR could not possibly put enough water on the ensuing fires. If it is a law, then my suspicion is that it likely isn't related strictly to MMOs, but to electronic services generally.
When you signed up for City of Heroes, you agreed that the service could be terminated with 90 days notice.
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Although it might be worth noting, not all of the MMOs I've played were published out of California or even the U.S. and they still gave the 90 day notice.
Wondering how the heck I know such a trivial thing? It has always been a curious thing to me, which is why I've always looked for the notice.
I also look at nutrition labels to see whether I'm getting sugar or high fructose corn syrup. I'm just weird, OK?
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This thread is getting a little crazy. But I kind of get both sides. I have to agree that people are not disagreeing with Joshex because he is saying NCSoft may not be at fault. They are disagreeing with him because it just most likely isn't true. Like Aggie said, its not his theories that set people off. Its the way he presents them. As pure and total fact. But at the same time, let the crazy diamond shine on. I have to admit, Joshex's posts have been driving me up the wall for months now. It get's old when people proclaim them self as an expert in virtually every field and then their posts speak entirely to the contrary. But I try not to go to hard on the guy cause he is just thinking outside the box. So I am kind of torn. I think the guy should be allowed to think and post whatever he wants. But at the same I have lost count of Joshex's inside connections and plans that will 100% for sure no doubt or question bring back CoH. I am honestly a little shocked it has taken this long for people to call him on it, perhaps that is why people are being a little harsh.
I also look at nutrition labels to see whether I'm getting sugar or high fructose corn syrup. I'm just weird, OK?
Unrelated but I would more so say that makes you observant then weird.
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I say enough is enough, and it's time to put my foot down.
Don't let these rational people bully you, Josh!
(And thank you, Taceus. :))
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I say enough is enough, and it's time to put my foot down.
Don't let these rational people bully you, Josh!
Lol damnt Captain. STOP MAKING ME LAUGH IM TRYING TO BE SERIOUS :p
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Although it might be worth noting, not all of the MMOs I've played were published out of California or even the U.S. and they still gave the 90 day notice.
Wondering how the heck I know such a trivial thing? It has always been a curious thing to me, which is why I've always looked for the notice.
I also look at nutrition labels to see whether I'm getting sugar or high fructose corn syrup. I'm just weird, OK?
Don't worry. I read labels to.
And I read...*gasps*... EULAs and ToS too. I know, shocking.
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It get's old when people proclaim them self as an expert in virtually every field and then their posts speak entirely to the contrary.
lol. Yeah. tell me about it. And I'm not talking just about Joshex.
People with "inside" information to every company but cant never name the guy or even name key personnel in the company. Everyone that know someone that know someone that know someone but cant say because it will violate laws, even though the law have been broken when they told that person in the first place. Or the promise to keep people in the loop as they use their insider to "pitch stuff" then it goes dark and nothing more until people start to wonder "soooo....is this thing still on or not?" Yeah unless Joshex posts under many different names, there have been a lot of Joshex like post hanging about and people just eat it up. Twice already at the least..
Well anyways. So I guess when people make a claim with nothing to back it up, there should be no more accusing of attacking when someone ask for evidence no matter who is saying it? Meaning even if it fits in the current popular yet unproven belief, it's just being, as people saying when they do it to Joshex, just trying to get facts so people don't get their hopes up and dash when they realize it to not be true. Regardless if it's for or against NCSOFT? Meaning that if another statement comes up that is trying to be passed off as fact that NCSOFT have no plans for the IP, it should be challenged? Or NCSOFT is evil corporation that shut down the game for nefarious reasons or any reason outside they stated, it should be challenged is on Joshex conspiracy level without facts? The stocks went down solely because of the game closing, or they did not in fact make attempt to sale, and the various other theories fact less baseless things about the COX situation that have been passed off as fact that is and have been floating around here? All should be can be treated as Joshex type conspiracy? That would only be fair right?
Just making sure so that when one of those baseless statements are made again and I point it out, it's not an attack it's just to make sure the facts are presented and people don't get their hopes up on false information.
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Or people have a different view from you on what is a baseless statement or not. Either everybody thinks the same as you and also feels that there are other people who are consistently as unreliable as Joshex, but just don't say anything about those other people out of some double standard due to the type of information. Or (whether they're ultimately right or wrong), people actually believe those other statements more and don't think the speculation from Joshex is as credible as that from other people. It's rather unfair of you to try to paint things as some 'us vs them' thing. Some people here find Joshex less credible than some other posters you apparently find even less credible than Joshex. That doesn't mean your conclusion is flat out right (it doesn't mean you're wrong either) and people such as myself have double standards, it means we came to a different conclusion from you.
Personally my experience of reading these forums is that speculation from either 'side' usually does get complained about. There's been plenty of doubt cast on the successor projects at various points, complaints made that Titan haven't come up with some private servers yet, people pouring cold water over various game closure related theories and so on. I just don't come to the same conclusion as you that only Joshex is called to account for wild speculation, and on top of that to me his speculation is more wild than most. If he really is planning to hire lawyers for these sort of things I think it would be rude to not suggest to him that could be a waste of his money.
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Or people have a different view from you on what is a baseless statement or not. Either everybody thinks the same as you and also feels that there are other people who are consistently as unreliable as Joshex, but just don't say anything about those other people out of some double standard due to the type of information. Or (whether they're ultimately right or wrong), people actually believe those other statements more and don't think the speculation from Joshex is as credible as that from other people. It's rather unfair of you to try to paint things as some 'us vs them' thing. Some people here find Joshex less credible than some other posters you apparently find even less credible than Joshex. That doesn't mean your conclusion is flat out right (it doesn't mean you're wrong either) and people such as myself have double standards, it means we came to a different conclusion from you.
Personally my experience of reading these forums is that speculation from either 'side' usually does get complained about. There's been plenty of doubt cast on the successor projects at various points, complaints made that Titan haven't come up with some private servers yet, people pouring cold water over various game closure related theories and so on. I just don't come to the same conclusion as you that only Joshex is called to account for wild speculation, and on top of that to me his speculation is more wild than most. If he really is planning to hire lawyers for these sort of things I think it would be rude to not suggest to him that could be a waste of his money.
Indeed.
Just as it would have been rude to not point out, as some people did, that these efforts have small chance of success. Although it was met with as if saying such a thing was beyond rude. People got called defeatist and NCSOFT shrill for simply stating that the for example the Hail Mary things were a very long shot, o r the petition was a long shot, or even the private server was a long shot. Well of course until Tony finally made a statement that these efforts were long shots. Then, it became, it's just being realistic. When people that been saying it since Sept. 2012 got flamed and called all sorts of things, some from the same people that praised Tony for later saying the same thing, for being realistic even though then it wasn't called being realistic. It was called, being an NCSOFT shill and a defeatist.
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Josh suddenly discovered a possible explanation for what happened and shared it. I said basically the same thing a while back and got reamed for it too because I, like Josh, was stating it as fact - just cuz I was all like, "Woohoo!" excited to have possibly figured it out and wasn't really paying attention to my phrasing.
But truth is truth, regardless of the source.
And speculation is a possible truth, again, regardless of the source.
And there IS one fact we do KNOW about the behind-closed-doors out-of-court settlement between Marvel and NC - Marvel dropped the infringement charges.
Why? Well, if JosheX's (and Floride's, hehehehe) speculation just happens to possibly maybe almost true, then the successor games do have something to worry about.
The big comic franchises may very well be trying to eliminate games containing non-licensable, legally "generic" superheroes and villains which divert attention from their meal tickets.
Since this is a possibility, albeit not a probability, we should still err on the side of caution and prepare our successors for any possible Cease and Desists from those franchise-mongers.
And Josh, will you take back your "expert" claim already! Jag's jumping up and down on the bed (and banshee screams) is starting to wake the neighbors!
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Jag, are you trying to tell us you that your feelings have been hurt?
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That would truly stink...if true, that anyone creating a game with a hero would be sued
by Marvel.
However, there have been movies,tv shows that have generic heroes.
...and I've even bought a gameboy of Powerpuff girls for my niece.
Don't recall Marvel sueing them.
I can't see how this could stand up in Court, by that account the term Refrigerator was trademarked,
yet there are lots of companies making refrigerators.
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Josh suddenly discovered a possible explanation for what happened and shared it. I said basically the same thing a while back and got reamed for it too because I, like Josh, was stating it as fact - just cuz I was all like, "Woohoo!" excited to have possibly figured it out and wasn't really paying attention to my phrasing.
But truth is truth, regardless of the source.
And speculation is a possible truth, again, regardless of the source.
And there IS one fact we do KNOW about the behind-closed-doors out-of-court settlement between Marvel and NC - Marvel dropped the infringement charges.
Why? Well, if JosheX's (and Floride's, hehehehe) speculation just happens to possibly maybe almost true, then the successor games do have something to worry about.
The big comic franchises may very well be trying to eliminate games containing non-licensable, legally "generic" superheroes and villains which divert attention from their meal tickets.
Since this is a possibility, albeit not a probability, we should still err on the side of caution and prepare our successors for any possible Cease and Desists from those franchise-mongers.
And Josh, will you take back your "expert" claim already! Jag's jumping up and down on the bed (and banshee screams) is starting to wake the neighbors!
I dont recall anywhere in my posts is screams. I don't think I can hit banshee octaves even if I tried. As I said, it's just a simple observation that I noticed.
And no, no feelings got hurt. Just an observation of when one person say one thing, they get the business then another person say it later and the get the praise. And while some information can be stated as fact while other cant even though it's all the same sort of speculation.
Although I do find it strange that back in late 2012 when a person said that these efforts had slim chance of succeeding, it was considered defeatist, being in the league of NCSOFT, NCSOFT shilling, rooting for failure being negative while someone else later says the same thing and it's considered being realistic. I guess that then there were less clear thinking with the mind and more emotion than later when it was said again, thus people was more receptive of it later than earlier when it was fresh. Or, it was more of the problem with who was saying it and not what was said. And since, some people that said it wasn't the most popular folk then, it didn't matter, it was viewed negative. But then a person that is more popular said it, it was more better received. Or a mixture of both.
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I dont recall anywhere in my posts is screams. As I said, it's just a simple observation that I noticed.
My bad. I gotta stop listening to Judas Priest while I write this stuff. :D
Although I do find it strange that back in late 2012 when a person said that these efforts had slim chance of succeeding, it was considered defeatist, being in the league of NCSOFT, NCSOFT shilling, rooting for failure being negative while someone else later says the same thing and it's considered being realistic. I guess that then there were less clear thinking with the mind and more emotion than later when it was said again, thus people was more receptive of it later than earlier when it was fresh. Or, it was more of the problem with who was saying it and not what was said. And since, some people that said it wasn't the most popular folk then, it didn't matter, it was viewed negative. But then a person that is more popular said it, it was more better received. Or a mixture of both.
Agreed.
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My bad. I gotta stop listening to Judas Priest while I write this stuff. :D
LMAO.
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Although I do find it strange that back in late 2012 when a person said that these efforts had slim chance of succeeding, it was considered defeatist, being in the league of NCSOFT, NCSOFT shilling, rooting for failure being negative while someone else later says the same thing and it's considered being realistic. I guess that then there were less clear thinking with the mind and more emotion than later when it was said again, thus people was more receptive of it later than earlier when it was fresh. Or, it was more of the problem with who was saying it and not what was said. And since, some people that said it wasn't the most popular folk then, it didn't matter, it was viewed negative. But then a person that is more popular said it, it was more better received. Or a mixture of both.
I can explain this. If you're more of a logical Spock personality, or for people who have autism spectrum differences (there are some here), I can understand the conclusion above. You'll get no judgment from me, but you've gotta understand something.
2012
Most people are Captain Kirks, emotional human beings. Let's say that you are a "General" (a figure of speech here meaning, someone leading the charge). At the beginning of a difficult battle is no time to feed all your troops just the facts, when they aren't really troops with military training, but just MMORPG fans. Because if you do, they will hang their heads. That will be the action and reaction. You will be defeating them before the enemy does. How does this work? For most people, hope is like armor and ammunition. So as a General you want to give your army more armor and ammunition. Speaking just of consumers versus corporations, there are battles that get won this way (read the news much?)--by keeping people motivated with hope. Therefore, the strategy has real actual value. Deep down, most consumers in this position already know their chances are slim. But when you must quickly motivate and mobilize thousands of consumers toward the same goal, in order to take advantage of fleeting windows of opportunity such as the interest of the press, then you must use that time wisely to focus your troops mental states on the goal of winning; not on the likelihood of losing. You don't have to be able to relate to this concept to be able to understand: this is how most people operate.
2013
If you lose the fight, then at the end of the battle, if there are "survivors" left ("survivors" in this case being MMORPG fans who are still ticked off enough to keep fighting), then the Generals may as well give them the facts, but explain to them that the battle is now entrenched. Entrenched battles require different tactics because by now you will have lost most of your "army" after their hope ran out. Effective entrenched troops can survive and fight without much hope, because they are determined. They have no reason not to be realistic, and they accept that the definition of victory will necessarily be different, but have decided that reverse-engineering the servers or creating a better MMORPG than the one they lost are worthwhile targets.
Deep down I always saw myself as an entrenched little trooper. I kept my mouth shut about it. There were times when I tried to get people to shut up and it wasn't because I thought they were wrong. It was because they were broadcasting their realism all over the place and it was causing the "troops" around them to become demotivated and drop out of the fight.
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I can explain this. If you're more of a logical Spock personality, or for people who have autism spectrum differences (there are some here), I can understand the conclusion above. You'll get no judgment from me, but you've gotta understand something.
2012
Most people are Captain Kirks, emotional human beings. Let's say that you are a "General" (a figure of speech here meaning, someone leading the charge). At the beginning of a difficult battle is no time to feed all your troops just the facts, when they aren't really troops with military training, but just MMORPG fans. Because if you do, they will hang their heads. That will be the action and reaction. You will be defeating them before the enemy does. How does this work? For most people, hope is like armor and ammunition. So as a General you want to give your army more armor and ammunition. Speaking just of consumers versus corporations, there are battles that get won this way (read the news much?)--by keeping people motivated with hope. Therefore, the strategy has real actual value. Deep down, most consumers in this position already know their chances are slim. But when you must quickly motivate and mobilize thousands of consumers toward the same goal, in order to take advantage of fleeting windows of opportunity such as the interest of the press, then you must use that time wisely to focus your troops mental states on the goal of winning; not on the likelihood of losing. You don't have to be able to relate to this concept to be able to understand: this is how most people operate.
2013
If you lose the fight, then at the end of the battle, if there are "survivors" left ("survivors" in this case being MMORPG fans who are still ticked off enough to keep fighting), then the Generals may as well give them the facts, but explain to them that the battle is now entrenched. Entrenched battles require different tactics because by now you will have lost most of your "army" after their hope ran out. Effective entrenched troops can survive and fight without much hope, because they are determined. They have no reason not to be realistic, and they accept that the definition of victory will necessarily be different, but have decided that reverse-engineering the servers or creating a better MMORPG than the one they lost are worthwhile targets.
Deep down I always saw myself as an entrenched little trooper. I kept my mouth shut about it. There were times when I tried to get people to shut up and it wasn't because I thought they were wrong. It was because they were broadcasting their realism all over the place and it was causing the "troops" around them to become demotivated and drop out of the fight.
Indeed. I figured that was the case.
And that is cool.
Remember, we are at war. Soldiers know they will get blown up and get shot at. Sometimes though especially in the beginning, you have to make them feel like they are bad asses and about to go kick some ass. Instead of saying, half of you aint going to make it home even though it may be true.
But even then, if people just happen to come across people they burnt in the passed for speaking the truth maybe they can close that ill feeling at least with an apology of some sort.
Because sometimes even motivation while shutting down realism at the time can come back and bite. Look at the news with the equipment against IED and how many military leader caught lot of flack for not preparing with the right equipment and under estimating. Many have lost their commission, even though if they came out and said it in the beginning, it probably would have demoralized the people that was about to ship out and set boots on the ground.
And by the way I'm more somewhere between Spock and Kirk. I know it happens, understand why it happens, and no ill feeling for emotions or look at it as odd (Spock), but still like to work out the variables of how does it exist. Like caffeine, most people know it boost mood alertness and understand drink one too many and you may get jittery and that is about as far as their thought go on it. Me, I want to know on the molecular level of how the caffeine interact with mood receptors.
But I do know more than a few Spocks, most are very successful people, and I know more thana few Kirks, and most are very well likeable and could motivate and make a person feel like they are king of the world, although one I think is just emotionally unstable, even the other Kirks look at him odd.
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I'll be content when the super smart coder people get a private server functional to make the coh client work. I can't express how badly I want this to happen. I check every day hoping for that one magical post that sends me into cartwheels. I only wish I was smart enough to be one of the people to help make it happen faster.
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You and I are in the same boat.
I'll be content when the super smart coder people get a private server functional to make the coh client work. I can't express how badly I want this to happen. I check every day hoping for that one magical post that sends me into cartwheels. I only wish I was smart enough to be one of the people to help make it happen faster.
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You and I are in the same boat.
We are legion
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Let's look at the timeline.
2005 - Marvel and NCSoft settle lawsuit out of court.
2006 - Marvel and Cryptic announce development of a Marvel MMO.
2007 - NCSoft buys CoH from Cryptic.
2008 - Marvel MMO cancelled, becomes Champions Online.
So, if your theory is true, then NCSoft decided to buy an ailing game knowing that a Marvel MMO will be out in the very near future and said company can shut down their newly acquired IP anytime thereafter. In fact, for your theory to work given the timing of CoH's actual shutdown, it wouldn't even require an MMO on the market, simply in development.
Yeah, that sounds likely. Might want to rethink your theory a bit...well, a lot actually.
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wasn't COX releases in 2004? And it was NCSOFT as publisher and Cryptic as developer.
2006-2007- NCSOFT buys Cryptic portion and thus gain 100% ownership.
Although in those times, COX was making a lot more money than in the end. About 3 times more IIRC. And the risks were worth it. Or would they have just dumped it while they can back in 2007 knowing Marvel game was on the way. But given the price tag and the average quarterly earnings at the time, in two quarters (half a year) they would have made a profit on their investment and basically decided to play Russian roulette.
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I'm still in my first cup of coffee, so forgive my fuzziness, here, but didn't CoH actually improve population numbers after Cryptic went off on their own?
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I'm still in my first cup of coffee, so forgive my fuzziness, here, but didn't CoH actually improve population numbers after Cryptic went off on their own?
Well the population numbers did drop the first quarter then rose slightly after 2Q08 and dropped again 3Q08 for the last reported population stat. But prior the population was already slowly dropping by the quarter, with the income continuing to slip over all but staying in the 5mil per quarter range until 2Q09 where it went from 5,210,432 to 4,574,030 in the 3q09 bottoming out a bit in 1Q10 at 2,939,963 and rising the next two quarters peaking at 4,973,647 in 3Q10 then dropping down to 2,826,623 in 4Q10 and sliding until at least 3Q11 at 2,411,540.
the sub numbers are active subscriptions and thus no telling how many lasped subs there were of people that still considered themselves players but no active sub at the time and later of course, (probably why they stopped reporting the active sub) it got complicated in counting population with f2p with many coming and going and going and coming and paying or not sometimes here and there or in spurts or spurts of not paying for anything.
But rumor of course is that the population bottomed out at about 60,000-80,000 players when it ended and that was a rise since F2P came into play and if that is the case that means somewhere between 3Q08 and Freedom release, the population dropped potentially below even 50,000 players and number like that coming from a peak of 194,000 odd active paying subs, usually doesnt bode well.
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But rumor of course is that the population bottomed out at about 60,000-80,000 players when it ended and that was a rise since F2P came into play...
Back in 2004 people perused the shelves at actual stores to buy games. CoH boxes themselves were the only real advertising this game ever received. And 3 months after launch, NC reported 180,000+ subscribers.
If they'd launched CoX today, 60-80,000 subscribers gained solely from clickable boxes on Steam and articles on Kotaku and IGN would be a pancaking miracle.
Supposedly you get what you pay for, and NC never payed a dime for new subscribers, never advertised. Even when it went free-to-play. And the game ended with 50,000 players? That's staggering.
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I would imagine if CoH went on Steam and was openly advertised it would easily have 200k+ subs as it is F2P and almost everything is open. If it was given an advertising budget well who knows.
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Back in 2004 people perused the shelves at actual stores to buy games. CoH boxes themselves were the only real advertising this game ever received. And 3 months after launch, NC reported 180,000+ subscribers.
If they'd launched CoX today, 60-80,000 subscribers gained solely from clickable boxes on Steam and articles on Kotaku and IGN would be a pancaking miracle.
Supposedly you get what you pay for, and NC never payed a dime for new subscribers, never advertised. Even when it went free-to-play. And the game ended with 50,000 players? That's staggering.
yeah, but it also just mean not all player left the building and with being able to throw a rock and hit someone claiming to been there since beta, it could mean not many f2p brand new people was entering or people were leaving and new f2p players were taking their place
But hell, even 1 brand new player due to F2P is an accomplishment given that there was no advertising. That is testiment to the power of word of mouth. With a little ad buget, it could have made it the ad budget and great profits, or rather greater profits.
for no advertising,
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I don't care why or how we lost it. Lawsuits, stupid execs, overreaching devs, failing money model, technical obsolescence, spaghetti code, archaic graphics, etc. None of this matters a hill of $hit to me.
I just want my damn game back.
Whoever I gotta pay or kill to make that happen is all I need to know.
(Warning! This post is an attempt at HUMOR. People taking it seriously should, like not or something. Go talk a walk or grab a beer or see a movie and try and accept that I don't actually want to kill anyone. But I would bribe someone. Yes. I could do that)
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I don't care why or how we lost it. Lawsuits, stupid execs, overreaching devs, failing money model, technical obsolescence, spaghetti code, archaic graphics, etc. None of this matters a hill of $hit to me.
I just want my damn game back.
Whoever I gotta pay or kill to make that happen is all I need to know.
(Warning! This post is an attempt at HUMOR. People taking it seriously should, like not or something. Go talk a walk or grab a beer or see a movie and try and accept that I don't actually want to kill anyone. But I would bribe someone. Yes. I could do that)
Pay me and I'll see what I can do. Like kickstarter, no guarantees, but hey, you'll be helping a good cause and putting money towards an idea. :p
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Thanks, but I think I'll send TonyV and MWM money instead. Better chance of getting something for it.
But hey, if you can get rep as a contract assassin or ace hacker who jailbreak the IP and server software, let me know.
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Thanks, but I think I'll send TonyV and MWM money instead. Better chance of getting something for it.
But hey, if you can get rep as a contract assassin or ace hacker who jailbreak the IP and server software, let me know.
lol. alright then. Will do.
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I just want to say that I think it's a pretty dubious standard to consider Joshex's initial post fine while suggesting Kyriani is being the 'Internet Gestapo' for raising doubt about his claims. Now maybe Joshex is correct in his conspiracy theories, but as far as I'm concerned the most likely options are either:
1 - He actually believes these conspiracy theories and tends to over think things to try and fit a conspiracy.
2 - He doesn't believe these things and finds it amusing to muck about with the community.
If 1 is true then I think it's better for Joshex to point out that a lot of these theories really aren't the most likely or realistic thing. Just sitting back and laughing quietly doesn't seem to be a terribly helpful reaction.
If 2 is true then that's pretty cruel given how many people are keen to latch on to any shred of hope about the game. I don't think encouraging others to be led up those rabbitholes is terribly worthwhile even if Joshex is being satirical.
Especially when these things come on the Titan forums I think injecting the occasional dose of skepticism is for the best. I saw the thread a while back where Joshex was talking about people needing to keep their game discs and suggesting that as a way to get their game back. And there were people there taking it as an exciting thing and linking their hope to things Titan has done already.
I hate having to keep my mouth shut about things but till I have all the outcomes of my actions I can't say definite things, I know it leaves the community wondering and i know theres alot of hope built up here for something to work. Yes I have plans, see; instead of sitting here like everyone else and letting myself interest the blue lantern corps with my excessive amount of hope, I find anything I can do to attempt to get the game back, no matter how slim a chance I'll succeed, I've got plans but it's taking a while to get to the actual bottom of this situation.
I'll admit alot of what I come up with is speculation, but it's based on cause and effect and sometimes alot of my own hope. thing is, as a few others have speculated I'm certain most of the shutdown was due to the agreement terms of the settlement between marvel and NCSoft. if I knew those terms I could say more, but until I actually go to court with marvel for this I can only guess every possible option. and before I go to court I need to put together a case and get some time when my lawyer can appear in court over it.
right now that seems like it might not happen for a year or possibly longer because I have things i've got to deal with and honestly have no time to instigate this situation further.
I've come along way from my initial ploy of trying to come up with the perfect claims against NCSoft and sue them for the IP.. that was the original plan a long while ago. yeah it would work, but if there is some sort of legal problem with the IP I suggest fixing that while it's in NCSoft's hands first, otherwise they'll have a claim in court.
thats whats been going on with me of late., to be honest this is one of the least crazy plans I had, the others involved my friends in korea storming NCSoft headquarters mission impossible style and somehow locating the IP stealing that and then randomly uploading the Coh servers and developer utilities to the internet... that would have worked but none of us has a tom cruz to spare.. aka we don't even know where the servers are or the IP documents.
so yeah a lawsuit of epically planned proportions is the best avenue.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the servers were still here being reused for some other purpose for Molten Games or Wildstar so yeah, that plan wouldn't have worked very well, but I'm really just going to say this:
Wasn't Cryptic and Jack still in charge before the case finished? Wouldn't that mean Jack was privy to the details of the settlement? Both NCSoft and Cryptic were on one side during the case and as I recall that means they were treated like ONE person for settlements and other issues. So why would Jack publicly say at one of the last gaming conventions that we should tell NCSoft to "give him a call" and see about getting the game "back home" if he knew he couldn't do anything with it or that they legally couldn't sell it? He would know, and if this speculation was true what he's reported to have said at the con would garner him very negative publicity to his name if he made a claim he knowingly couldn't deliver, giving up our hopes. I'm not saying he still couldn't do that, just that it doesn't make much sense to me unless there is no such settlement clause.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the servers were still here being reused for some other purpose for Molten Games or Wildstar so yeah, that plan wouldn't have worked very well, but I'm really just going to say this:
Wasn't Cryptic and Jack still in charge before the case finished? Wouldn't that mean Jack was privy to the details of the settlement? Both NCSoft and Cryptic were on one side during the case and as I recall that means they were treated like ONE person for settlements and other issues. So why would Jack publicly say at one of the last gaming conventions that we should tell NCSoft to "give him a call" and see about getting the game "back home" if he knew he couldn't do anything with it or that they legally couldn't sell it? He would know, and if this speculation was true what he's reported to have said at the con would garner him very negative publicity to his name if he made a claim he knowingly couldn't deliver, giving up our hopes. I'm not saying he still couldn't do that, just that it doesn't make much sense to me unless there is no such settlement clause.
Then again, he probably didn't need NCSOFT to call him as he could have called them.
Speaking of which did he ever call them or did someone actually tell NCSOFT to call Jack? Besides that one spur of the moment comment, I haven't heard anything else from him about it. It might have been just an empty comment that fitted at the time.
And side note: COX is not that well known of a game where it boils down to positive or negative publicity. Not everyone is so vain to be thinking all day and night "Oh if I don't support them I will get negative publicity." Most people probably didn't even take the comment that serious.
He made a comment, nothing came of it since then, and seem like his "public image" didn't change much at all either way.
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... if I knew those terms I could say more, but until I actually go to court with marvel for this I can only guess every possible option. and before I go to court I need to put together a case and get some time when my lawyer can appear in court over it.
right now that seems like it might not happen for a year or possibly longer because I have things i've got to deal with and honestly have no time to instigate this situation further.
I've come along way from my initial ploy of trying to come up with the perfect claims against NCSoft and sue them for the IP.. that was the original plan a long while ago. yeah it would work...
... thats whats been going on with me of late., to be honest this is one of the least crazy plans ...
so yeah a lawsuit of epically planned proportions is the best avenue.
Cueing Morgan Freeman.
"Now let me get this straight. You think that your game was closed because Marvel
... a division of the Walt Disney Corporation ... the most powerful and effective litigious entity ever known to humankind ... the corporation that is single-handedly responsible for extending copyright terms world-wide through it's invincible political and economic power ...
established terms in a court settlement with NCSoft that convinced them to close the game ...
and your LEAST crazy plan is to SUE DISNEY?
... Goood luck."
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Cueing Morgan Freeman.
"Now let me get this straight. You think that your game was closed because Marvel
... a division of the Walt Disney Corporation ... the most powerful and effective litigious entity ever known to humankind ... the corporation that is single-handedly responsible for extending copyright terms world-wide through it's invincible political and economic power ...
established terms in a court settlement with NCSoft that convinced them to close the game ...
and your LEAST crazy plan is to SUE DISNEY?
... Goood luck."
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.troll.me%2Fimages2%2Fpinkynthebrain%2Fits-so-crazy-it-just-might-work-thumb.jpg)
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Cueing Morgan Freeman.
"Now let me get this straight. You think that your game was closed because Marvel
... a division of the Walt Disney Corporation ... the most powerful and effective litigious entity ever known to humankind ... the corporation that is single-handedly responsible for extending copyright terms world-wide through it's invincible political and economic power ...
established terms in a court settlement with NCSoft that convinced them to close the game ...
and your LEAST crazy plan is to SUE DISNEY?
... Goood luck."
contrary to what you might believe not everything done in court is a law suit, sueing marvel/disney would be to make a claim against them, in this case I'd like to merely defend CoH in court for the purpose of renegotiating the settlement to coincide with the fact that CoX never violated any rights of marvel/disney. the intended outcome is to make a blank settlement, thus voiding the settlement in the first place.
for all I know if someone were to do this then NCSoft could merely start up the servers as if nothing had happened. then if they don't act; I have a lawsuit prepared for them already.
lawsuits cost money too, which I currently don't have much of. heh, had a lawyer who would do it probono but time and dimension are proving to be my enemy in this situation. I'll be in china by the 17th of october so.. not much time to go to court in the USA.
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contrary to what you might believe not everything done in court is a law suit, sueing marvel/disney would be to make a claim against them, in this case I'd like to merely defend CoH in court for the purpose of renegotiating the settlement to coincide with the fact that CoX never violated any rights of marvel/disney. the intended outcome is to make a blank settlement, thus voiding the settlement in the first place.
for all I know if someone were to do this then NCSoft could merely start up the servers as if nothing had happened. then if they don't act; I have a lawsuit prepared for them already.
lawsuits cost money too, which I currently don't have much of. heh, had a lawyer who would do it probono but time and dimension are proving to be my enemy in this situation. I'll be in china by the 17th of october so.. not much time to go to court in the USA.
Are you even eligible to engage in such actions? You are not the owner of the IP. You have no legal standing to get involved. If Marvel and NCSoft settled... then the issue is settled as far as all relevant parties are concerned. You may not like the end results but I doubt any judge is going to grant you any level of standing as a relevant party in the case. Especially a case that has been over and done with for years.
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Yeah, even if the game was shut down because of a secret agreement between NCSoft and Marvel (which I personally doubt) I'm not sure what you think you can go to court over. If something was agreed behind closed doors years ago then how would Marvel be compelled to revisit such a thing? And even if they wanted to any deal would be between NCSoft and Marvel, there doesn't seem to be any room for third parties to get involved.
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This thread/
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img713.imageshack.us%2Fimg713%2F6659%2Fbc6o.gif)
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Are you even eligible to engage in such actions? You are not the owner of the IP. You have no legal standing to get involved. If Marvel and NCSoft settled... then the issue is settled as far as all relevant parties are concerned. You may not like the end results but I doubt any judge is going to grant you any level of standing as a relevant party in the case. Especially a case that has been over and done with for years.
we live in a world where anyone can go to court with anyone over anything. you can even take the president of the US of A to court for having inappropriate relations with your pet duck through an account called 'sexyjazzguylovesquakers' on 'sexyyoungduckcams.com'
even if the case is completely hear-say and rediculous, well.. I havn't heard of many cases being thrown out recently, only a few. fact is most cases stand even if you are suing someone for someone else without thier prior consent.
yeah, I have heard of things like "young geek sues nintendo saying they stole mario from him and he was the orginal creator" sch things companies wont even show up, instead a letter will be mailed to the court from the company's lawyer containing evidence of legal ownership blahblah.. - but then again I have heard of that happening and the person sueing presenting 'greater evidence' and winning leaving the company dumbstruck and filing for an appeal.
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we live in a world where anyone can go to court with anyone over anything. you can even take the president of the US of A to court for having inappropriate relations with your pet duck through an account called 'sexyjazzguylovesquakers' on 'sexyyoungduckcams.com'
even if the case is completely hear-say and rediculous, well.. I havn't heard of many cases being thrown out recently, only a few. fact is most cases stand even if you are suing someone for someone else without thier prior consent.
yeah, I have heard of things like "young geek sues nintendo saying they stole mario from him and he was the orginal creator" sch things companies wont even show up, instead a letter will be mailed to the court from the company's lawyer containing evidence of legal ownership blahblah.. - but then again I have heard of that happening and the person sueing presenting 'greater evidence' and winning leaving the company dumbstruck and filing for an appeal.
yeah like that guy who sued McDonalds for 10 million because he gained weight from eating their super sized food very often.
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Or the lawsuit against McDonalds because coffee is hot.
Also, whaddaya got against Quakers. I don't know any personally, but I hear they're decent people. :D
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Or the lawsuit against McDonalds because coffee is hot.
Also, whaddaya got against Quakers. I don't know any personally, but I hear they're decent people. :D
The lawsuit against McDonalds for hot coffee was a case of receiving 3rd degree burns over most of the body and demonstrating that it was because McDonalds constructed their drive-thru procedures (which they spent years and millions designing and millions in advertising to convince people to use) in a reckless and irresponsible manner (why the HELL don't they use the coffee cup holders that they HAVE). Punitive damages were necessarily set at the amount that would cause McDonalds to change the behavior of all its restaurants (which they didn't do -- opting instead for "warning coffee is hot" stickers).
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who knew Fresh coffee was hot ? :P
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who knew Fresh coffee was hot ? :P
Coffee is hot, yes. However for proper flavor it cannot be above 170 degrees. For safety it cannot be above 180 degrees.
They served it to her at over 210 degrees.
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well there is a difference between hot and boiling. Yeah, seriously though she had a case more than fat dude in my opinion.
Eventually someone is going to spill proper hot coffee on themselves and sue and they are just going to serve if frozen and the customer have to warm it up themselves at work or at home.
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The lawsuit against McDonalds for hot coffee was a case of receiving 3rd degree burns over most of the body and demonstrating that it was because McDonalds constructed their drive-thru procedures (which they spent years and millions designing and millions in advertising to convince people to use) in a reckless and irresponsible manner (why the HELL don't they use the coffee cup holders that they HAVE).
To be fair, the plaintiff in the action was not exactly firing on all brain cells when they burned themselves. If you take a styrofoam cup in your hand and squeeze it, it distorts with very little effort. If you put a lid on the cup, the flange on the lid prevents the cup from distorting, and you have to make an effort to distort the cup. The plaintiff had stuck the cup between their legs, holding it with the pressure of their legs, and proceeded to remove the lid -- at which point the pressure of their legs against the cup crushed it between them, fountaining the coffee across their legs. The judgement in the suit was that McDonald's was negligent in maintaining their coffee at such a high temperature that it would cause burns if spilled; the restaurant did not have a sufficient number of disclaimers telling the user not to be an utter f**kwit (boxes of Pop-Tarts used to carry the warning "Caution: Filling will be hot when heated"), so they were liable through not having given sufficient cautions.
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I absolutely LOVE reading the warning on products. One of my favorites is on hair dryer packages. "Do not use while asleep." Lo and behold, on some reality show, they spotlight some gal who is addicted to sleeping with her hair dryer...
(https://i.imgur.com/t77Lr87.gif)
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we live in a world where anyone can go to court with anyone over anything.
You've had six pages. Cut to the quick: what exactly do you want?
A. All of us to say that we're all wrong and that you're right? (Even if we did, nothing changes.)
B. To sue someone? (Go for it, but it's your own effort. No one is helping you with this unless they explicitly tell you they are, and I doubt Titan Network wants to support a conversation like this. Also, in no lesser form, count me out.)
C. To get us to sue someone? (I've got better things to do, Spartacus.)
D. Some weird amalgamation of all three of the above (least likely to happen... odds look worse than NCSoft responding to any of us.)
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I absolutely LOVE reading the warning on products. One of my favorites is on hair dryer packages. "Do not use while asleep." Lo and behold, on some reality show, they spotlight some gal who is addicted to sleeping with her hair dryer...
(https://i.imgur.com/t77Lr87.gif)
those reality shows are spotty.
But yeah some lady in the past prior did sue a hair dryer company because she decided to take a nap while blow drying her hair. She ended up burning her scalp of course and won. Yeah many of those layers are goofy sounding and make me thing sometimes, "Who would do such a thing anyways?" but most of them exist because someone did such a thing and won lot of money.
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You've had six pages. Cut to the quick: what exactly do you want?
A. All of us to say that we're all wrong and that you're right? (Even if we did, nothing changes.)
B. To sue someone? (Go for it, but it's your own effort. No one is helping you with this unless they explicitly tell you they are, and I doubt Titan Network wants to support a conversation like this. Also, in no lesser form, count me out.)
C. To get us to sue someone? (I've got better things to do, Spartacus.)
D. Some weird amalgamation of all three of the above (least likely to happen... odds look worse than NCSoft responding to any of us.)
Josh, I am going to go eat a cookie. There's one in my kitchen.
By the time I come back, you better have answered this man's questions!!!! >:(
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=stream1.gifsoup.com%2Fview1%2F3121378%2Fcookie-monster-o.gif)
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You've had six pages. Cut to the quick: what exactly do you want?
A. All of us to say that we're all wrong and that you're right? (Even if we did, nothing changes.)
B. To sue someone? (Go for it, but it's your own effort. No one is helping you with this unless they explicitly tell you they are, and I doubt Titan Network wants to support a conversation like this. Also, in no lesser form, count me out.)
C. To get us to sue someone? (I've got better things to do, Spartacus.)
D. Some weird amalgamation of all three of the above (least likely to happen... odds look worse than NCSoft responding to any of us.)
Well as they said and made clear since Aug 31 as replied to not trying due to slim chances
"even with the very slim chance of it happening. Only way failure is guaranteed is if no one tries anyways. And if one don't try then they are being defeatist and giving up hope."
With all the text beating of people that even said that this entire effort was a small chance, over all, now this site nor many of these people have a leg to stand on when it comes to small to slim chance ideas and someone going for them. Remember the harsh rude, insulting and sometimes straight overboard things that have been said to people that said the entire effort was slim and not worth the try. Now are the same people going to tell that to someone else? Does that now make them all those things that they called people then, defeatist, giving up hope. rolling over easily, etc?
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You've had six pages. Cut to the quick: what exactly do you want?
A. All of us to say that we're all wrong and that you're right? (Even if we did, nothing changes.)
B. To sue someone? (Go for it, but it's your own effort. No one is helping you with this unless they explicitly tell you they are, and I doubt Titan Network wants to support a conversation like this. Also, in no lesser form, count me out.)
C. To get us to sue someone? (I've got better things to do, Spartacus.)
D. Some weird amalgamation of all three of the above (least likely to happen... odds look worse than NCSoft responding to any of us.)
well, I was trying to maintain a bit more subtlety than coming here and blurting out "hey, you take it"
fact is I'm not that bold as to walk into a room of people and ask for anything, which is why this topic will never directly ask for anything.
instead a statement is given; I may not be able to follow through with filing a lawsuit to straighten out and possibly restart CoH, however the angle from which I intended to tackle this particular case is laid out in this thread, If someone here has the preverbial balls to go for the gusto as it were, even albeit before I manage to, then more power to you.
bassically if someone is willing to try and deal with this case against marvel and possibly NCSoft quicker than I will then by all means do it and I'll supply my basic strategy for doing so for your consideration.
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/emote sigh... [puts all CoH boxes back on shelf and walks away from this thread]
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(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img580.imageshack.us%2Fimg580%2F8428%2F4bk5.jpg)
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Never mind me I just couldn't locate any cookies earlier.
Your idea sounds legit bro, but we'll need a defense attorney. Or wait. Offense attorney lol.
I'm trying to decide between She-Hulk and Aggelakis.
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well, I was trying to maintain a bit more subtlety than coming here and blurting out "hey, you take it"
fact is I'm not that bold as to walk into a room of people and ask for anything, which is why this topic will never directly ask for anything.
instead a statement is given; I may not be able to follow through with filing a lawsuit to straighten out and possibly restart CoH, however the angle from which I intended to tackle this particular case is laid out in this thread, If someone here has the preverbial balls to go for the gusto as it were, even albeit before I manage to, then more power to you.
bassically if someone is willing to try and deal with this case against marvel and possibly NCSoft quicker than I will then by all means do it and I'll supply my basic strategy for doing so for your consideration.
I believe anything can happen. I'll support you Joshex even if chances are slim. We all loved this game so much, yet people are giving up? What happened to to everyone wanting to "SAVE" CoX? Looks like they through in the towel and given up.
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I'm all for supporting getting COH back. But I am also realistic past a certain point. It is not even within the realm of possibility for someone without vast financial resources to try and sue NCSoft for the game. It is their property and no judge is going to say otherwise even if you have the money to get that far. But if any of us had that kind of money we could just as easily make an offer to NCSoft for the IP. Telling grandiose tales about "my friend who's a lawyer" working "probono!" fosters a false hope that is unfair to those that want the game back.
I believe unexpected things can happen. I don't believe unrealistic patently fantasy things will happen. Thinking anyone can "sue" NCSoft for the game is fantasy. The realistic possibilities include and are about limited, at this point, to Purchasing the IP (by a member of the community or big financial supporter) or the most likely scenario: a Private Server.
I'm all for encouraging people to try even things outside the box to get COH back. But spouting forth any and every inane idea no matter how far from reality it may be does not help anyone and in fact hurts people. People are still hurting over the loss of COH. Giving them false hope and stringing them along is cruel. Take a page from those working on the private server. You know, the one we haven't a clue is anywhere near functional yet or even who exactly is working on it? Don't go stirring up that hornet's nest of emotions until you have something solid to show.
And if you do have an idea... for the love of Atlas Park try to at least keep it within the realm of REALISTIC possibility. That's not being negative. That's being realistic. I loves me some fantasy as much as the next person but fantasy won't bring COH back.
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I'm all for supporting getting COH back. But I am also realistic past a certain point. It is not even within the realm of possibility for someone without vast financial resources to try and sue NCSoft for the game. It is their property and no judge is going to say otherwise even if you have the money to get that far. But if any of us had that kind of money we could just as easily make an offer to NCSoft for the IP. Telling grandiose tales about "my friend who's a lawyer" working "probono!" fosters a false hope that is unfair to those that want the game back.
I believe unexpected things can happen. I don't believe unrealistic patently fantasy things will happen. Thinking anyone can "sue" NCSoft for the game is fantasy. The realistic possibilities include and are about limited, at this point, to Purchasing the IP (by a member of the community or big financial supporter) or the most likely scenario: a Private Server.
I'm all for encouraging people to try even things outside the box to get COH back. But spouting forth any and every inane idea no matter how far from reality it may be does not help anyone and in fact hurts people. People are still hurting over the loss of COH. Giving them false hope and stringing them along is cruel. Take a page from those working on the private server. You know, the one we haven't a clue is anywhere near functional yet or even who exactly is working on it? Don't go stirring up that hornet's nest of emotions until you have something solid to show.
And if you do have an idea... for the love of Atlas Park try to at least keep it within the realm of REALISTIC possibility. That's not being negative. That's being realistic. I loves me some fantasy as much as the next person but fantasy won't bring COH back.
Yeah kind of wished TFHM followed this advice. Seemed like they knew or portrayed had insider in every major company that had an direct ear to head guy, the company will swoop in and buy the IP or go on a strike against NCSOFT if they don't sell and publically humiliate them or what not. Fantasy without thinking the realistic part that NCSOFT may simply not want to sell. Lot of false hope been going on and those that pointed out that it's stringing people emotions along got called stuff for it and hardly ever was it called realistic. Glad realistic thinking is prevailing now but it should have been prevailing from the get go.
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Yeah kind of wished TFHM followed this advice. Seemed like they knew or portrayed had insider in every major company that had an direct ear to head guy, the company will swoop in and buy the IP or go on a strike against NCSOFT if they don't sell and publically humiliate them or what not. Fantasy without thinking the realistic part that NCSOFT may simply not want to sell. Lot of false hope been going on and those that pointed out that it's stringing people emotions along got called stuff for it and hardly ever was it called realistic. Glad realistic thinking is prevailing now but it should have been prevailing from the get go.
Agreed
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The people behind TFHM DID have insider information. Quite a bit of it. More than they let on.
The only thing I resent about TFHM is its unceremonious fizzling. The people behind it wandered off to other interests and promptly forgot about the hundreds of hearts and minds who were waiting and hoping to hear updates from them. That was, at best, an unfriendly thing to do to those people waiting and watching. Now, I can definitely relate to getting distracted by life and things, so when I say "resent" I ask you to take it with a grain of salt. I am forgiving about it, and I don't think any less of the people behind TFHM, and neither should you. Maybe they just got too sad to keep trying. I know the TFHM team incurred personal losses on top of everything else. I am grateful for everything they tried. Nothing takes away from that. I just would have preferred an announcement regarding the end of TFHM. It's still hanging there in its own sub-forum like rotting fruit on the vine.
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TFHM is still going on. It was limited to only 4 people at first.
One was VV and with her mother dying and being on the hook for a new book to write - she has obviously had a full plate.
Rae is still working on some efforts. I know I put forward a possible buyer and she is working on it. I am sorry that businesses don't operate in the full public and rarely do they want anyone to know what they are doing.
I know it all seems a bit cloak and dagger, sometimes it HAS to be.
You have 3 projects in the light of day, H&V, Phoenix and Valience.
You have at least 2 reverse engineering projects going.
You have at least 2 suggestions out with Disney and Google and there is a 3rd.
There is cause for hope. None of these is a certainty, I am sorry there isn't more to share but you have either possible legal entanglements or they quiet method businesses use to move on a property. I really wish it was more open but let me place you in the drivers seat.
If you had $10-15 million to spend and were trying to buy a game to restore it would you openly show your hand to have maybe it all to go south and raise the ire of people without need?
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TFHM is still going on. It was limited to only 4 people at first.
One was VV and with her mother dying and being on the hook for a new book to write - she has obviously had a full plate.
Rae is still working on some efforts. I know I put forward a possible buyer and she is working on it. I am sorry that businesses don't operate in the full public and rarely do they want anyone to know what they are doing.
I know it all seems a bit cloak and dagger, sometimes it HAS to be.
You have 3 projects in the light of day, H&V, Phoenix and Valience.
You have at least 2 reverse engineering projects going.
You have at least 2 suggestions out with Disney and Google and there is a 3rd.
There is cause for hope. None of these is a certainty, I am sorry there isn't more to share but you have either possible legal entanglements or they quiet method businesses use to move on a property. I really wish it was more open but let me place you in the drivers seat.
If you had $10-15 million to spend and were trying to buy a game to restore it would you openly show your hand to have maybe it all to go south and raise the ire of people without need?
But if that the case, in hindsight, I wonder if it was worth announcing anything at all until something more solid that could be shared happened? Like instead of "hey we are contacting this guy that knows a guy" then silence. Maybe it would have been better to wait until, "hey, they got NCSOFT to the negotiating table."
Like right now, have there been a single blip of indication that either side is actually moving or NCSOFT is even interested in selling?
If I had 10-15 million. I don't think I would have spoke about it at all until things are certain. And if I do speak as has happened here, after a while, especially if there is audience, I would have the common courtesy to keep them updated. Even with generic information of the deals are going forward, they are still looking it over, they are not looking it over, they shredded it, they laughed at it, they loved it, etc. For people with inside information they sure don't know much. There are many ways to communicate without spilling the entire can of beans.
Believe it or not, assuming they actually do have inside information, they are not the only one, the first nor last that been in position of inside information and giving updates while maintaining information control. Remember I work for the gov. It's bread and butter especially when dealing with private contracts of new establishments and people outside asking and wondering what's going on. So I have a pretty good idea how these things work and the way it looks like either they over estimated their insider depth or they been blowing smoke. I don't think they been blowing total smoke.
Quite frankly anyone can claim to know someone that know someone on the internet.. While we at it, I know a guy that knows a guy that knows a guy that met this guy at Walmart that got an email from the secretary of this guy that knows the dog walker of this guy that live two cities over from this guy that knows a founder of Yahoo. Guess this means I have inside information to the Yahoo CEO.
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Honestly? I'm pinning all my hopes on one of those two reverse engineering projects. I'm supportive and intrigued by the successors but even if they turn out to be super awesomesauce I still want good old fashioned COH back. I carry the hope that those people reverse engineering it will one day soon just slam us in the face with what they've been working on all this time and we can actually play again. THAT'S what I am truly waiting for. No matter how great the successors end up being I will always want COH back if for no other reason than posterity.
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I was kinda hoping someone switched the I24 harddrive out with a different one that was "wiped-honest" and smuggled the real one out to one of the Titan crew. But I have a feeling that that didn't happen. That sounds just like a mission you would find in CoH. Dang I still miss that game.
-Fuegocito [Pinnacle]
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Honestly? I'm pinning all my hopes on one of those two reverse engineering projects. I'm supportive and intrigued by the successors but even if they turn out to be super awesomesauce I still want good old fashioned COH back. I carry the hope that those people reverse engineering it will one day soon just slam us in the face with what they've been working on all this time and we can actually play again. THAT'S what I am truly waiting for. No matter how great the successors end up being I will always want COH back if for no other reason than posterity.
Yes. I feel the same. I can't help but feel I may be disappointed with the successors simply because they are not City of Heroes. By every measurable and conceivable standard they may be better. But I fear it still won't work for me.
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Yes. I feel the same. I can't help but feel I may be disappointed with the successors simply because they are not City of Heroes. By every measurable and conceivable standard they may be better. But I fear it still won't work for me.
I'm not so much worried about "living up to COH". No matter how great the successors are nothing can REPLACE City of Heroes. But the successors can carry on the legacy if done right and I hope they succeed in doing that. Nothing would please me more than to see the children that COH spawned going forth into the world and making successes of themselves. I'll probably be playing them. But there will always be a soft spot in my heart for the antiquated parent game and I daresay everyone who frequents these boards feels the same way.
We can love and support the kids without giving up the candle we hold for the parent.
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Nothing can replace our City!
I'm hoping at least one of the successors can help to fill the void.
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Wild Eyed Waving Hands
You know, the more I read and ponder all of this, the more I think Josh IS the right guy to take this case to court.
It's crazy enough, it just might work!
You're going to need an attorney, a costume, and an air-blowing machine capable of completely covering the courtroom in City of Heroes boxes before anyone can switch it off.
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You know, the more I read and ponder all of this, the more I think Josh IS the right guy to take this case to court.
It's crazy enough, it just might work!
You're going to need an attorney, a costume, and an air-blowing machine capable of completely covering the courtroom in City of Heroes boxes before anyone can switch it off.
I seen crazier ideas.
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I seen crazier ideas.
And in a legal context they fail. Hard.
i've seen many of those "crazier ideas" and they generally result in sanctions against the person who brought them before a judge. As far as i can tell Joshex's plan requires that whatever judge he presents the case to have even less understanding of how the legal system works than he does. Based on what he's said so far it's unlikely anyone who has actually ever been inside a courtroom knows less, so i wouldn't get my hopes up. i am not a lawyer, but following various legal proceedings has become a hobby of mine. Frankly Joshex's plan sounds like perfect fodder for Lowering the Bar (http://www.loweringthebar.net/). (This one (http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/10/good-news-for-law-firms-ufos.html) in particular seems especially relevant.)
i'm willing to support any effort that has a reasonable chance of bringing the game back, but trying to involve yourself in a case that was settled years ago when you have no standing at all is roughly equivalent to claiming you're going to build a bridge across the widest part of the Grand Canyon and drive an APC over it using nothing but a 5 pound bucket of Lego and a small box of paper clips.
Between this, the nebulous plan for game boxes, and the "i can read .dll" that was somehow going to allow him to reverse engineer the game despite the fact that he repeatedly demonstrated that he didn't completely grasp what he was actually looking at...
Yeah, while i find Joshex's plans entertaining in a surreal and whimsical way i won't put much stock in them until they can pass the sniff test. Seriously, i appreciate the wild-eyed enthusiasm of these plans and the manic cleverness invested in them, but i prefer slightly more practical solutions. Living in a magical realist teen adventure world where strength of will and purity of shart can make even the most cracked and absurd dream come true would be nice, but it's not the reality i live in.
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purity of shart
Hee hee hee hee hee hee......purity of shart....hurrr hee hee hee...
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Am I the only one who saw Agge's name and think the thread had been closed? :D
Actually, I'm impressed with all of us. As energetic as the debate here has been, and as widely disparate the opinions have been, it's a testament to this community that it's stayed civil.
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And in a legal context they fail. Hard.
i've seen many of those "crazier ideas" and they generally result in sanctions against the person who brought them before a judge. As far as i can tell Joshex's plan requires that whatever judge he presents the case to have even less understanding of how the legal system works than he does. Based on what he's said so far it's unlikely anyone who has actually ever been inside a courtroom knows less, so i wouldn't get my hopes up. i am not a lawyer, but following various legal proceedings has become a hobby of mine. Frankly Joshex's plan sounds like perfect fodder for Lowering the Bar (http://www.loweringthebar.net/). (This one (http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/10/good-news-for-law-firms-ufos.html) in particular seems especially relevant.)
i'm willing to support any effort that has a reasonable chance of bringing the game back, but trying to involve yourself in a case that was settled years ago when you have no standing at all is roughly equivalent to claiming you're going to build a bridge across the widest part of the Grand Canyon and drive an APC over it using nothing but a 5 pound bucket of Lego and a small box of paper clips.
Between this, the nebulous plan for game boxes, and the "i can read .dll" that was somehow going to allow him to reverse engineer the game despite the fact that he repeatedly demonstrated that he didn't completely grasp what he was actually looking at...
Yeah, while i find Joshex's plans entertaining in a surreal and whimsical way i won't put much stock in them until they can pass the sniff test. Seriously, i appreciate the wild-eyed enthusiasm of these plans and the manic cleverness invested in them, but i prefer slightly more practical solutions. Living in a magical realist teen adventure world where strength of will and purity of shart can make even the most cracked and absurd dream come true would be nice, but it's not the reality i live in.
well I was talking about crazier ideas here on this forum.
Although some crazy ideas did work.
"I got fat, I don't feel like working. Say, I'll sue MCDonalds."
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I was kinda hoping someone switched the I24 harddrive out with a different one that was "wiped-honest" and smuggled the real one out to one of the Titan crew. But I have a feeling that that didn't happen. That sounds just like a mission you would find in CoH. Dang I still miss that game.
-Fuegocito [Pinnacle]
It was a radio mission "Recover the P.L.O.T. device", lol.
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brb bio
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You're just replying so it comes back up to the top and gets more replies and the crazy just continues, Cap'n. :p
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No, well, yes but look we're never going to get this thing off the ground without a plan of attack. We can't just wing it--does a tricycle run on just two wheels? Never mind. Just look at the subject title. Says it all right there.
We're going to need a diagram.
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We're going to need a diagram.
No, we're going to need a montage.
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How about a trailer!
http://vimeo.com/70941166#at=0
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I usually don't care for movie mashups like that, but that is indeed an epic 6 minutes of time not wasted. I bet if a movie ever comes out that epic, the time space continuum will implode around it. In which case, it will mean only one thing....
We're going to need a Montague.
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We're going to need a Montague.
Not a Capulet?
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well, a rose by any other name still smells as sweetly....
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Not that Montague, this Montague!
(https://paragonwiki.com/w/images//thumb/8/8b/Montague_Castanella.jpg/100px-Montague_Castanella.jpg)
I was going to make a montage of Montague, but tonight I think I'm going to curl up with a good dynamic link library.
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ROFL, I didn't even notice that. As an actor I approve *bows* good catch.
Not a Capulet?
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I have copies of a lot of the public court documents and part of the reason this case was dismissed was that Marvel had employees signing up for City of Heroes - creating copies of their own superheroes and then saying "See all these people copying Marvel heroes - that's infringement" . The judge threw most of the case out because of that.
This is also the same Marvel Comics that in suit claimed they a) invented Super Heroes and b) they invented Mutants.
Both are ridiculous since super heroes were around long before Marvel or even DC comics existed in the 40's and mutants and mutations are part of evolution and have been around for millions of years.
So I don't buy this Marvel lawsuit shutting them down after 8 years - that was already dismissed.
Oh and here's an excerpt I Love
32. Marvel is informed and believes, and based thereon alleges, that
Defendants have knowingly and willfully copied numerous Marvel Characters, and
the expression they contain, including, but not limited to, Captain America,
Wolverine and The Incredible Hulk in the creation, distribution and marketing of
their City of Heroes game. Among other things, Defendants' "Statesman" character
is a blatant rip-off of Marvel's Captain America. Defendants had direct access to
the Marvel Characters by virtue of the widespread and long-term public exposure of
the Marvel Characters in both the printed and audio-visual media. Indeed, the
Marvel Characters are among the most recognizable in the "world of comic books"
that Defendants claim to "bring alive" in City of Heroes, and Defendants' principals
have mentioned Marvel as an inspiration in several articles and interviews.
Statesman is a rip off Captain America - yeah right
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Statesman is a rip off Captain America - yeah right
What a blatantly false claim to make... He's obviously a Superman rip-off.
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What a blatantly false claim to make... He's obviously a Superman rip-off.
This. If anyone had cause to sue, it was DC. Flight, super strength, laser eyes, impervious to everything but plot devices, personality of a cinder block. Really, all they missed was the big S on his chest.
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This is a bit of a play on words...
But i think things are starting to get 'complex'
:)
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This. If anyone had cause to sue, it was DC. Flight, super strength, laser eyes, impervious to everything but plot devices, personality of a cinder block. Really, all they missed was the big S on his chest.
Statesman was unique. Marcus Cole was dying from mustard gas sickness, WWI vet, who drank from the 'Well of Furies' and got his powers from Zeus. (and cure)
Sort of magic....Not Captain America, definitely not Superman, perhaps 'Captain Marvel' is about the closest in comparison.
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Statesman was unique. Marcus Cole was dying from mustard gas sickness, WWI vet, who drank from the 'Well of Furies' and got his powers from Zeus. (and cure)
Sort of magic....Not Captain America, definitely not Superman, perhaps 'Captain Marvel' is about the closest in comparison.
And, Captain Marvel (or his publisher, Fawcett Comics) survived a legal challenge from National Comics (now DC) because of the character's similarity to Superman. It's a funny little world.
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Statesman is basically Superman's powerset with a bit of Captain Marvel's origin. He's hardly the only character in CoH you could make such a comparison with.
Back Alley Brawler is basically Luke Cage meets Wildcat, Manticore is Batman's personality and crimefighting style with Green Arrow's main gimmick, Positron is almost completely Iron Man, Synapse is Flash (with additional electric powers), there's a lot of Vision in Citadel, and Captain America is more closely represented by the meme-tastic Blue Steel.
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...Manticore is Batman's personality, bank account, and crimefighting style with Green Arrow's main gimmick...
Fixed that for ya. ;)
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All things being equal, I doubt you could win a lawsuit based on power sets alone.
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Well to be fair, it's so hard to be 100% original these days. Hell many stories today are very close or based on Shakespeare, and yet his works were sometimes based on either history or OTHER stories including greek stories, just as an example. Nothing wrong with being similar or close to as long as an effort is made to be as original or different as possible, CoX dev and creative team did a good job doing that for themselves. Statesman being a good example as he brought up feelings or images of other famous characters, but had a rich back story for his world, costume, and such that made him stand out as something special. At least that's how I see it. Also....Blue Steel has meme's?
Statesman is basically Superman's powerset with a bit of Captain Marvel's origin. He's hardly the only character in CoH you could make such a comparison with.
Back Alley Brawler is basically Luke Cage meets Wildcat, Manticore is Batman's personality and crimefighting style with Green Arrow's main gimmick, Positron is almost completely Iron Man, Synapse is Flash (with additional electric powers), there's a lot of Vision in Citadel, and Captain America is more closely represented by the meme-tastic Blue Steel.
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Also....Blue Steel has meme's?
Yup (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Blue_Steel#Blue_Steel_Meme).
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Also....Blue Steel has meme's?
Blue Steel once punched a guy so hard, the shockwave rippled backward through time and inspired someone to invent the internet so one day there could be a meme about it.
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If anything, the last few posts were worth having this thread. Very entertaining.
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now things are rEaLLy complex.... :o
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You are making the assumption that after all those years - Marvel shut the game down?
Based on what Voodoo?
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From what I can see, it's all based on the fact that, when he asked NCSoft for the address to Marvel's legal department, they gave it to him. Therefore NCSoft is subtly pointing the blame at Marvel for CoH's shutdown. Therefore it's all Marvel's fault. Therefore an unrelated third party can sue Marvel and get the game back.
... or that's what I'm understanding here.
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You are making the assumption that after all those years - Marvel shut the game down?
Based on what Voodoo?
corporate lawyer voodoo mixed with NCSoft deciding to not spend the money to actually defend CoH in court. yeah, they know good and well that they could have easily defended CoH against Marvel's allegations but marvel knew that they could drag out the court process and cost NCSoft millions more than the game would be worth in the process, so NCSoft took a settlement.
at least thats the cause and effect I would think could lead to a shut down.
what kind of case would stretch on so long that NCSoft would get tired of it? the kind where marvel brings up one accusation in each hearing as evidence that CoH infringes on it's character IPs. a never ending onslaught of "that character looks alot like hulk, and we saw some players with a wolvarine look-a-like.
baseless unprovable accusations, but also non-disprovable. or at least thats how NCSoft's legal department advised them, tht the case would go on for years costing them millions more than the game makes on average. A never ending hearing.
thats why NCSoft wont fight back and why if we want to fight back we need to plan carefully, we need to find out what the base of all thier accusations are and attempt to prove that such concepts that they note are not individually owned by thier company alone but are used by countless characters from all sorts of series. once that is brought to the courts attention your should call that an 'article' and give it a number, that way if Marvel tries to say something different like "stateman's star and coloring is too similar to captain america's shield" you can say "objection, article 5, stars and stripes are the symbol of america and multiple other nations and states the concept of them cannot be owned by any one company in specific."
I have been informed that I am missing something big in my whole 'ncsoft was shut down' thread, so I'll incorporate it when I hear it.
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we live in a world where anyone can go to court with anyone over anything. you can even take the president of the US of A to court for having inappropriate relations with your pet duck through an account called 'sexyjazzguylovesquakers' on 'sexyyoungduckcams.com'
even if the case is completely hear-say and rediculous, well.. I havn't heard of many cases being thrown out recently, only a few. fact is most cases stand even if you are suing someone for someone else without thier prior consent.
As a matter of fact, standing is the primary reason I've seen ludicrous lawsuits tossed out. For example, you mention the President of the United States of America. Lawsuits challenging his legal right to be President have been dismissed due to the technicality of lack of standing of the person making the challenge, because they either were not a registered voter in the district the lawsuit was filed or failed to assert they actually voted in the election in question, both of which would be required for standing. In another very high profile example, the Supreme Court rejected the challenge made against California's Proposition 8 on the grounds that private citizens have no legal standing to defend state statutes against constitutionality challenges when the state itself chooses not to defend them.
It might seem silly to sue McDonalds over making you fat, but such a suit asserts actual damages by the petitioner and thus demonstrates legal standing to pursue legal action. You could sue NCSoft for depriving you of enjoying City of Heroes (and you'd lose) but you cannot defend NCSoft against legal action in their place. NCSoft can't even delegate that right to you even if they wanted to: in some recent high(er) profile patent trolling cases it was ruled that the patent troll lacked legal standing to pursue the case because they did not actually own the patents in question, they were just given "the go ahead to sue" in the owner's place. Which you cannot legally do (similar recent cases involved copyright law, which would be applicable to the legal rights asserted by Marvel in their original complaint).
The only way I could see you could manufacture standing would be to sue Marvel directly for taking action against NCSoft that deprived you of the game. And I believe that's already legally settled as not working: if it did all the customers of a company could sue creditors of the company that forced it into bankruptcy.
All of this is completely separate from the fact that unless Marvel filed an actual cease and desist letter, NCSoft shutting down the game because they thought Marvel *might* do so means there's no way to file legal action against Marvel to prevent them from actually doing so. Legally, US courts tend to follow the "case or controversy" rule that requires an actual questionable act or situation that can be ruled on. All federal courts and nearly all state courts are forbidden from making so-called "advisory" opinions that rule on hypotheticals or adjudicate preemptively. In other words, you can't go to court to prevent someone from taking an action they haven't actually taken, except in the specific case of filing for a legal injunction. And those require legal hurdles that cannot be satisfied in this case without litigating the very case you'd be incapable of litigating due to standing.
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Like right now, have there been a single blip of indication that either side is actually moving or NCSOFT is even interested in selling?
Obviously NC is interested in selling if the price is sufficient. They're a publicly traded company; they'll sell you the entire company if you've got enough cash.
Although some crazy ideas did work. "I got fat, I don't feel like working. Say, I'll sue MCDonalds."
That (assuming it happened; most of these crazy lawsuit stories simply didn't happen (Winnebago cruise control) or are significantly more complicated than they appear (boiling-hot coffee)) is obviously less crazy than Joshex's idea. The person who got fat had some actual relationship to the lawsuit.
I do feel this persistent comparison you make with TFHM is utterly absurd. Hail Mary might have been overly optimistic (but I think not; a long shot is still worth taking if it's your best shot) but it's not even in the same ballpark as this sort of fantasy scenario; it was clearly something which had a non-zero chance of success. This is up there with asking the fairies at the bottom of the garden if they own the rights to CoX.
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Obviously NC is interested in selling if the price is sufficient. They're a publicly traded company; they'll sell you the entire company if you've got enough cash.
That (assuming it happened; most of these crazy lawsuit stories simply didn't happen (Winnebago cruise control) or are significantly more complicated than they appear (boiling-hot coffee)) is obviously less crazy than Joshex's idea. The person who got fat had some actual relationship to the lawsuit.
I do feel this persistent comparison you make with TFHM is utterly absurd. Hail Mary might have been overly optimistic (but I think not; a long shot is still worth taking if it's your best shot) but it's not even in the same ballpark as this sort of fantasy scenario; it was clearly something which had a non-zero chance of success. This is up there with asking the fairies at the bottom of the garden if they own the rights to CoX.
Possibly. A lot of TFHM was fantasy as if some out of the blue some major corporation is going to receive some heart felt letter and automatically come to the rescue buy the IP and release it to the public for the warm fuzzy feeling and good of this community. Yeah, it was just as fantasy based as this idea. Both are overly optimistic both ignore the realities of the situation and both make pretty strange assumptions that in TFHM case that their contact had direct access to the decision maker and the company was actually as whole from someone who actually could speak on behalf of the company, had interest in buying and or didn't already know about the closing and didn't read a single bit fo news about it already.
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Obviously NC is interested in selling if the price is sufficient. They're a publicly traded company; they'll sell you the entire company if you've got enough cash.
That (assuming it happened; most of these crazy lawsuit stories simply didn't happen (Winnebago cruise control) or are significantly more complicated than they appear (boiling-hot coffee)) is obviously less crazy than Joshex's idea. The person who got fat had some actual relationship to the lawsuit.
I do feel this persistent comparison you make with TFHM is utterly absurd. Hail Mary might have been overly optimistic (but I think not; a long shot is still worth taking if it's your best shot) but it's not even in the same ballpark as this sort of fantasy scenario; it was clearly something which had a non-zero chance of success. This is up there with asking the fairies at the bottom of the garden if they own the rights to CoX.
Lets not forget this case that happened here in NYC - a drunk man fell into the train tracks -then later sued NYC and the Transit Authority for $4 million because there was no one to stop him falling into the tracks - and he won the case.
So people will sue for anything hoping they will win - even if it's their own fault.
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Lets not forget this case that happened here in NYC - a drunk man fell into the train tracks -then later sued NYC and the Transit Authority for $4 million because there was no one to stop him falling into the tracks - and he won the case.
So people will sue for anything hoping they will win - even if it's their own fault.
yeah.
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Lets not forget this case that happened here in NYC - a drunk man fell into the train tracks -then later sued NYC and the Transit Authority for $4 million because there was no one to stop him falling into the tracks - and he won the case.
So people will sue for anything hoping they will win - even if it's their own fault.
Yes, but without sufficient standing the suit gets tossed out without ever getting close to a trial. (Luckily physical injury guarantees standing if nothing else.) You can file suit for anything if you have the time and/or money, but that doesn't mean it gets anywhere at all. If you do it enough times you can be barred from bringing suit yourself at all. At that point you have to convince a lawyer to do it for you and if you have a history as a vexatious litigant a lawyer who wants to remain in good standing with the courts will definitely have second thoughts before taking your case.
Luckily (or unluckily depending on how you look at it) the US legal system is divided into a variety of different court systems, most of which aren't bound by precedents set in the other courts, so you can try suing in multiple venues as long as you can come up with the most superficial justification for why that particular court would have jurisdiction. Of course it will probably still get tossed out in the first hearing, but it does mean that even the most worthless and insane lawsuits can be used to waste legal resources and irritate judges and lawyers for years on end.
So if you want to be annoying for years on end without the slightest chance of accomplishing anything useful frivolous, insane lawsuits are the way to go.
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A lot of TFHM was fantasy as if some out of the blue some major corporation is going to receive some heart felt letter and automatically come to the rescue buy the IP and release it to the public for the warm fuzzy feeling and good of this community.
But since that's a gross misrepresentation - laughably inaccurate, containing at least one obvious untruth - that's neither here nor there.
Lets not forget this case that happened here in NYC - a drunk man fell into the train tracks -then later sued NYC and the Transit Authority for $4 million because there was no one to stop him falling into the tracks - and he won the case.
That's a neat mix of just untrue and slightly more complex. The actual grounds for the award was that the train driver did not operate the emergency brake when they could have done so. However, whatever you think of that case, it was more sensible than this one because it was brought by someone actually involved with the incident.
You can sue people for a lot of things, but you can't sue someone (with any chance of getting any result but an annoyed judge) for something they did to another third party with no real connection to you.
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TFHM was to show another company who has like interests in gaming and in Disney's case OWN MARVEL.
It was to show that a PROFITABLE game was shut and that they could buy it and make a profit themselves with eight years of content to pull from.
But if your view is that people just sent out stuff randomly without a plan.........well no there was and is still a plan.
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TFHM is still going on. It was limited to only 4 people at first.
One was VV and with her mother dying and being on the hook for a new book to write - she has obviously had a full plate.
Rae is still working on some efforts. I know I put forward a possible buyer and she is working on it. I am sorry that businesses don't operate in the full public and rarely do they want anyone to know what they are doing.
I know it all seems a bit cloak and dagger, sometimes it HAS to be.
You have 3 projects in the light of day, H&V, Phoenix and Valience.
You have at least 2 reverse engineering projects going.
You have at least 2 suggestions out with Disney and Google and there is a 3rd.
There is cause for hope. None of these is a certainty, I am sorry there isn't more to share but you have either possible legal entanglements or they quiet method businesses use to move on a property. I really wish it was more open but let me place you in the drivers seat.
If you had $10-15 million to spend and were trying to buy a game to restore it would you openly show your hand to have maybe it all to go south and raise the ire of people without need?
OK I'm catching up on the last several posts.
Ironwolf, I take it from your last few posts, especially the above quoted one, that you are now part of the TFHM team? I've noticed a few people are using your quote above as proof that TFHM is still a thing. I'm just trying to make sure you are in a position to speak for the TFHM organizers and TFHM's current status.
This isn't me putting a spotlight on you--I think you've done that to yourself by being the only one presently speaking for TFHM's status. I'm just trying to make absolutely sure that you're an actual TFHM representative, not an overzealous fan of the effort. In your post above you indirectly paint yourself as someone with inside information. Accidental or not, it's clear that people are taking you for a TFHM representative. If that's a misunderstanding, I haven't seen you correct it.
I'm an overzealous fan of ANY effort, but not at the cost of accurate information. I am all for hope, but not at the expense of productive efforts and tactics. It's true that there has been a change of attitude for myself and some others, and the reason for that doesn't need to be repeated (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9171.msg131522.html#msg131522). At this stage, there have been so many blind alleys and diminished hopes, the people who are left are the ones who can handle the truth; in fact, anything less is disrespectful. There are efforts that are very open and active right now--and worth peoples valuable time. TFHM is probably not one of them. I would feel differently if any of its founding members were vocal in the slightest, but they're not.
Some of TFHM's members are active in other communities out there. They haven't disappeared. They're not taking time away from the Net. What that probably means is that they're not hanging out here anymore, there are no updates, there are no packets going out, there are no prospective buyers, they're burned out, they're doing something else. I'm proud of them for their efforts, but they might be too ashamed to admit they've quit and moved on. Or maybe shame has nothing to do with it. I hope it doesn't. Maybe they just moved on. They would never have needed our permission to do that, and I hope they're as proud of their efforts as I am.
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Just want to add something. I can say without exaggeration, I'd be stoked to be corrected on this. But therein would lie a separate problem as well.
Let's say a TFHM representative pops up and is like, "Yo Cap'n, me and my homies are still sending out pitch packages! Like what are you even talking about lololol?"
I guess, at this point, I'd want to know whose idea this strategy was: making the body of your effort appear as much like a corpse without a pulse as possible, thereby driving your audience away, so that when you need them to write letters to prospective buyers, they will no longer be there to hear your Call to Action.
I suppose the real issue here is, whether or not there is a functioning TFHM, its relationship with the community cannot be explained in any way that makes sound strategic sense.
There is a difference between protecting insider information and keeping the carrot on the stick.
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You know, an alternative explanation could just as easily be that TFHM had somebody reply and say they were interested but they needed more internal discussion or to try and establish contact with NCSoft. Such a thing could take a lot of time and it might not be in the best interests for the company involved to have their interest known before any kind of deal happened.
Equally packs could have gone out to other companies where they had a contact and the nature of the relationship meant there wasn't much point in getting the community involved in letter writing or the like. If they mentioned too many situations like that I'm sure they'd be accused of bragging or spreading false hope by some people here.
I have no insider information, I'm just saying that no news doesn't have to be a negative thing. I think everyone involved knew or should have known from the beginning that these kind of plans were long shots (hence the name Task Force Hail Mary). But if we want the game back they're shots worth taking, but taking it didn't stop them being long shots. Having a few long shots fizzle (if indeed they have) shouldn't discourage anyone too much if they entered into this with eyes wide open.
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"I'm just saying that no news doesn't have to be a negative thing"
I completely agree with this statement. There could be lots of stuff being worked on behind the scenes that we just don't have privy to, and probably won't for a while. I won't give up the hope that someday, we will get our city back. I might not be wealthy (I don't have enough money to 'pay attention') but I have a plethora of faith and patience.
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I am not on the team. I have spoken to members of the team about a possible interest in the game.
I am on my blackberry now will elaborate later.
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I live in Michigan and work in Detroit.
A person named Dan Gilbert (owns Quicken loans) is a huge believer in community. He is trying to turn Detroit and Michigan as well around. How serious is he?
1. When they started a jail here and ran out of money while building it - he paid the $113 million they spent on it to buy the city out of debt.
2. He holds Technology fairs trying to wrangle programmers and technology manufacturers to Michigan.
3. He will BUY YOU A HOUSE to move to Detroit and work for him.
4. He has purchased dozens (30-50) large buildings in Detroit and is either renovating them or leveling them.
This guy wants to remake Michigan into a new type of state not reliant on the auto industry alone and he is willing to spend millions of dollars to do so. I could with little effort list several HUNDRED things he has done out of his own pocket - or coordinating with others. He pitched in to buy 23 EMS vehicles and 100 police cars http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2013/03/25/8-million-donation-from-businesses-to-help-Detroit-get-23-EMS-units-100-police-cars.html
This guy is the real deal. I suggested floating the purchase of the game or helping local developers to use him to invest in buying. It is a proven and profitable title. It would bring developers in. This is something Dan Gilbert would at the very least take a look at. I know people think he only is into loans - but I listen to local radio here in the city and this guy wants to bring EVERYTHING here. He understands a thriving economy needs diversity and the number of businesses he has invested in and things he is involved in - is huge.
At this level there is no point in sending letters or any other support - it is floating an idea. This isn't one of the secret things it is exactly what the name says - a Hail Mary.
I know you will at the least get a civil and polite letter from him. If need be - I would go down and try and speak to the guy and explain what happened to the game and the why as we know it. I would not dismiss this as a waste of time I hear weekly how he has invested in something new to build the city. If he will buy an unfinished jail for $133 million - he could perhaps be persuaded to buy a complete game and build its community.
Can you see how this could be spun? Build new zones with Detroit landmarks - not just Boomtown either :)
You could say Paragon City was destroyed by Nemesis and now Detroit is the new Headquarters of the Heroes and Villians.
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The company name that bought the jail and police cars wouldn't be or be backed by OCP would it? Might have a few Ed209s running around CoH if that company did purchase it.
-Fuegocito [Pinnacle]
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The only problem with using real Detroit landmarks is that there's already a spandex game out there that's set in Detroit. Not sure if it's actually a problem, but both games were created by the same development studio.
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Just want to add something. I can say without exaggeration, I'd be stoked to be corrected on this. But therein would lie a separate problem as well.
Let's say a TFHM representative pops up and is like, "Yo Cap'n, me and my homies are still sending out pitch packages! Like what are you even talking about lololol?"
I guess, at this point, I'd want to know whose idea this strategy was: making the body of your effort appear as much like a corpse without a pulse as possible, thereby driving your audience away, so that when you need them to write letters to prospective buyers, they will no longer be there to hear your Call to Action.
I suppose the real issue here is, whether or not there is a functioning TFHM, its relationship with the community cannot be explained in any way that makes sound strategic sense.
There is a difference between protecting insider information and keeping the carrot on the stick.
Re: Thoughts on Hail Mary, one year later
Rae posted this thread yesterday. They are still working!
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Perhaps a visualization may be handy.
Picture a plain, well-working computer.....it's on, but your monitor isn't. That computer is just sitting there like a big box not moving. Inside, however, is a plethora of marvelous activities producing a world of things for you to enjoy once your monitor is turned on, and you can actually SEE what's happening. I hope everyone who wants our City back will not give up, just because we don't get a lot of reports from TFHM. They are busy inside that box, working hard to bring back a home.
(https://i.imgur.com/StpNvfJl.jpg)
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Wow, I hadn't even considered that tie in - Robocop and City of Heroes together might make an awesome expansion pack!
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Detroit City (http://youtu.be/jaqDQUmKop0)