MMORPG - COH profitability

[Shadowe]

Yep. This is what I do for a living, too (you didn't think any of the damn music projects made any money, did you?)...and his is a very well known name indeed. Household name if you work in this field...

Yeah... To me, he'll always be a roleplayer, a good guy to have on the team, and a decent bloke to hang out having a smoke with. A good friend.

[Osborn]

Damn, you guys are brutal! That's a compliment by the way.

But seriously - I think the slogans that focus a little more on the "MMOKiller" angle rather than the "boobies" angle might work better, particularly around launch.
Blade and Soul:
"Grab them today, before they disappear tomorrow!"

(because that one works BOTH angles superbly)

and

"We promise not to shut this one down unless it's failing.* For real this time."

*We reserve the right to alter our definition of "failing" at any time.

It's not really brutal if you're telling the truth, though, is it? I mean, pointing out that somebody just axe kicked a child isn't brutal, even if that person suffers for their actions. It's the original action that is bad.

So if NCSoft hurts for all this, it's not because we're making things up just to hurt them. They should suffer consequences on their actions.

I concur - mocking the sexual appeal {or revulsion, depending on how you see the design} would make sense if NCsoft tried to conceal it, rather than, well, basing the entire advertising campaign around it. So yes, focusing on the #mmokiller aspect would probably be best.

Another possible tagline, cribbing a bit from others:
"Don't miss out on Blade and Soul, the latest chapter in the epic 'MMO Killer' saga. Available for a limited time only."

Yeah, I've never had anything against fan service or sex, but there are like, 2 Superhero MMOs and they are both terrible, and like about a billion MMOs based around half naked women and 20 times that many porn sites if I really want to see sex happen, so I'm not exactly thrilled about the trade, I guess. Supplying me with something I have an abundance of, even if I'm not morally against it, isn't exactly gonna win me your business.

[Floride]

From the people who brough you the megahit 'City of Heroes' comes....
- BLADE AND SOUL -
"If you like what we did to City of Heroes,
You'll love what we have in store for Blade and Soul!" - NCSoft

It makes CoH and B&S synonymous thru repetition, it's ambiguous enough to fool those 'tards at NCsoft, and the message is abundantly clear.

[therain93]

Is there an opportunity for us with the Blade & Soul launch? I propose dive bombing every article about the launch. I'm not calling for animosity, just impassioned pleas for CoH back on NCsoft's front door with the B&S launch.

No save coh should be involved, because that's out of context -- but consumer awareness isn't.  The general themes should be "why reward a publisher with a bad history of yanking games with your money?" and "Can you have that  much confidence in the longevity of the game?" 

[Timelord Tom]

I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, but there is one thing that NCSOFT isn't lying about: "The studio was unprofitable before the shutdown."

Let me explain this bit of truth twisting rhetoric - They are quite correct, COH did not earn them any profit for 3 months before the shutdown. It's twisted logic, but the "shutdown" didn't happen when they announced it on August 31st, it happened when the servers were shut off November 30th. Not only were they not collecting subscription fees from us, they were refunding some of us, and had to pay out severance to the laid off Paragon Studio employees, while still pay rent for the building that housed them, etc.

That's hardly COH, or Paragon Studios' fault, and certainly isn't ours. NCSOFT is just desperately trying to disarm us with half truths and lies.

[Ironwolf]

NCSoft used the old - Do you still beat your wife style of argument.

Their argument while correct was misleading on purpose. The extra game they were creating and the added employees were with their permission - right up until they fired everyone. They say, well are you losing money? Yes, because you made us build this whole Minecraft thingie.

Well then that's why we closed the game - you were unprofitable.

But excuse me City of Heroes was making money.

Your studio wasn't and we closed you.

Insanity and it looks like someone is trying now to actively do damage control.

[Illusionss]

[Atlantea]

I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, but there is one thing that NCSOFT isn't lying about: "The studio was unprofitable before the shutdown."

Let me explain this bit of truth twisting rhetoric - They are quite correct, COH did not earn them any profit for 3 months before the shutdown. It's twisted logic, but the "shutdown" didn't happen when they announced it on August 31st, it happened when the servers were shut off November 30th. Not only were they not collecting subscription fees from us, they were refunding some of us, and had to pay out severance to the laid off Paragon Studio employees, while still pay rent for the building that housed them, etc.

That's hardly COH, or Paragon Studios' fault, and certainly isn't ours. NCSOFT is just desperately trying to disarm us with half truths and lies.

Man - You've got to pay REALLY close attention to catch the lie within the truth. That's the mark of a high level balseraph, there.

[Quinch]

Late to the party here:

Wait, what?!!! Someone, somewhere FINALLY GOT A RESPONSE out of NCSoftheaded?!!! Its a miracle!! Too bad the response was more lies and obfuscation, but still. That's an epic feat.

Indeed. Hell, I'm half-tempted to send Davis a thank-you note - he came out charging straight into the field of bear traps, between contradicting NCsoft's own financial reports, and contradicting himself. Oh, sure, the "it was unprofitable before the shutdown" line can be twisted into truthiness, but this is a PR battle, not a legal one. I can only hope he actually comes out saying "it was technically not a falsehood", but that might be a bit much to hope for.

For that matter, I wonder how much of that statement was dictated by NCsoft's own execs? He's a chief of communications, this is a ridiculously noobish mistake to make - what are the odds he was simply told, "we don't care, this is what you're going to say and that's final."

[eabrace]

For that matter, I wonder how much of that statement was dictated by NCsoft's own execs? He's a chief of communications, this is a ridiculously noobish mistake to make - what are the odds he was simply told, "we don't care, this is what you're going to say and that's final."

I'd say odd are high based on what we know about how NCsoft management operates in general and some of the actions we've observed in the past.

[FatherXmas]

Slightly off topic but I can't stop laughing over the absurdity of how it looks.  I present the Xmas costumes in Blade & Soul.  Note the sashaying down hill may not be safe for work.  Also the guy's expression at around 2:35 with the big fluffy feather like coat just screams "sure honey of course I love this".

[Atlantea]

Indeed. Hell, I'm half-tempted to send Davis a thank-you note - he came out charging straight into the field of bear traps, between contradicting NCsoft's own financial reports, and contradicting himself. Oh, sure, the "it was unprofitable before the shutdown" line can be twisted into truthiness, but this is a PR battle, not a legal one. I can only hope he actually comes out saying "it was technically not a falsehood", but that might be a bit much to hope for.

For that matter, I wonder how much of that statement was dictated by NCsoft's own execs? He's a chief of communications, this is a ridiculously noobish mistake to make - what are the odds he was simply told, "we don't care, this is what you're going to say and that's final."

Indeed.

Note that the phrase - "The studio was unprofitable before the shutdown" - does not specify a timeframe.
 
Thus it is legally not a mis-statement or lie. But it gives the impression that Paragon Studios had not been profitable for longer than the 90 days when they didn't exist except as a notation in the budget, yet NCSoft still had to keep the game running and were issuing severance checks and then refunds.

The way the statement is loaded is meant to lead the reader to make a certain judgement that is not accurate. The reader is meant to assume that NCSoft is claiming that Paragon Studios was non-profitable while it was still an active studio. But NCsoft is not actually SAYING that. And they can claim that it was not their intent to mislead if they were to be called on it.
 
This is a classic case of "Spin". And many commenters at the MMORPG site have fallen for it.

[Atlantea]

Slightly off topic but I can't stop laughing over the absurdity of how it looks.  I present the Xmas costumes in Blade & Soul.  Note the sashaying down hill may not be safe for work.  Also the guy's expression at around 2:35 with the big fluffy feather like coat just screams "sure honey of course I love this".

 

Oh my lord.... *FALLS OVER LAUGHING*

Oh... god... can't... BREATHE...

[Aggelakis]

Slightly off topic but I can't stop laughing over the absurdity of how it looks.  I present the Xmas costumes in Blade & Soul.  Note the sashaying down hill may not be safe for work.  Also the guy's expression at around 2:35 with the big fluffy feather like coat just screams "sure honey of course I love this".

OK, so, like, I really really like the concept of the little mouse-raccoon kids, and think they look adorable. I also think the white-haired dude at the end looks kind of bad-ass. If the game just had the little mouse-raccoon kids, I would totally play it. I am a sucker for adorable. Too bad the other two chicks look like hookers and the big dude looks like bad drag.

[Quinch]

Personally, that walk cycle makes me wonder if they used a human being for motion reference, or if they just shaved a gorilla.

[FatherXmas]

I guess the big guy is from their meatsicle race of big brutish humanoids, sort of like Norns in GW2 while the white hair guy is from their bishi race of pretty people.

The sway left, sway right is rather hypnotic.  It's interesting that they turned that off in the last China beta.

[dwturducken]

Whatever criticisms people might have of our public disapproval of B&S, I can't think of any game outside of NCSoft's stable of games that utilizes that level of "jiggle physics."

[JaguarX]

Whatever criticisms people might have of our public disapproval of B&S, I can't think of any game outside of NCSoft's stable of games that utilizes that level of "jiggle physics."

So it's the "jiggle" that is the problem?

In the MMO world, I dont recall any with that much "jiggle", but then again I dont think I played or seen 30% of MMO games. Outside the MMO world as in games in a general sense, Dead or Alive series have jiggle, and Soul Caliber and the outrage at that type of animation seemed to be as old as those games and even prior with Tomb Raider and the size of Lara's chest and probably prior to that.

Came across an interesting article on that subject 5 months ago and this thread reminded of it. I finally found it again. Article from 2007 http://www.gamefront.com/breast-physics-a-growing-social-problem/


Although given the gaming general demographics, I'm not sure if making a fuss about it, not saying dont makea fuss, my all means do make a fuss when it's out of line, make people go "Oh I'm not going to play that game" and instead more "Oh really? I'm going to go buy it today to see the fuss." Not to mention to be fair, COX and other games had it's more than fair share of oversized female breasts and many people that seemed too happy to use it.

[HarvesterOfEyes]

But seriously - I think the slogans that focus a little more on the "MMOKiller" angle rather than the "boobies" angle might work better, particularly around launch.

I do agree. My suggestions were meant very very sarcastically.

It is amusing to ponder the corporate meeting in which this product (S&B) was pitched. What sort of person had the job of persuading the bigwigs that the market for soft-core Hentai Porn was in no way saturated and posed a great money-making opportunity on the order of WoW?

I use WoW as the standard of financial-success solely because it seems we keep having the proposition "X didn't make as much as WoW, therefore it's a failure." thrown in our virtual faces. If however that is the standard then it would have to be so that the pitches to management for one or another product would have to present an argument of that nature.

Furthermore, if that is the standard upper-management has set, then they are pretty well compelling their marketing department to lie to them about the likely upside of any given project.

[For those of you who fancy yourselves business-analysts please note my use of the "if..then" structure. I'm not saying that those are anyone's policies, but rather I'm engaged in an exercise of testing models by considering whether they lead to absurd outcomes or outcomes that don't fit the facts.]

[FatherXmas]

I don't think the WoW excuse is used all that frequently as before.  I believe everyone now realizes that WoW is a fluke, lightning in a bottle, and isn't easily recreated.  However now that fact is understood, big budget MMOs like ToR is going to have a tougher time getting funded.  I can also see more MMOs being developed in Asia, Eastern Europe and Russia due to developer costs, as a way around the costs.