Author Topic: MMORPG - COH profitability  (Read 88694 times)

chasearcanum

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #340 on: January 11, 2013, 07:46:42 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but It's my understanding the 15 people point was during the last few months of Cryptic ownership. NCSoft had no control of Cryptic staffing or the staff allocation, and precisely the lack of resources was one of the strong reasons for NCSoft to believe there was a severe conflict of interests going on with the simultaneous development of another super hero MMO.

I don't think Cryptic would have ever canceled the game, but they would have likely kept it running on an even smaller team in the long run (had they ever have a choice to keep the title for themselves, I think NCSoft's proposition was "you[cryptic] sell it[coh] to us[ncsoft] or we jointly cancel it, you ain't buying it for yourself.")

After the release of CoV, there was an odd relationship between NCSoft and Cryptic.  NCSoft and Cryptic were co-owners... the exact split is unknown (50/50, 60/40, etc) but we do know a few things about that time.

1) there was split ownership and split revenue.  This is unusual, as usually the publisher is the owner and the studio is just paid for the development (plus bonuses, if certain sales are met)
2) As is normal in most of these, the Publisher pays the studio for additional (after-launch) development.  The publisher also decides how much to invest in after-launch development.
3) That extra investment didn't change the ownership split.  That meant that even if NCSoft put in twice its original investment into CoH continued-development, it still owned the same % of the game that it did previously.
4) That raised some points of contention. 

NCSoft's continued-development budget had the potential to sustain or increase the value of the core product, but NCSoft didn't get an increased share of the product to match its increased development (or, if it did, the metric used didn't seem proportionate.)  That made them reluctant to invest too much in to it.  Cryptic saw this as fair, as all this was known when they sold NCSoft their share and NCSoft got a larger share for their investment because of it.  If NCSoft came back now to renegotiate, it'd feel like cheating.

So, that's where things stood- NCSoft paying Cryptic the bare minimum to sustain the game, and the dev team shrinking down to its low point. 

When Cryptic's Marvel MMO fell through, Cryptic approached NCSoft about the idea of turning what they were working on into CoH2, with much the same relationship as previously (NCSoft gets partial ownership for their share of the investment, Cryptic gets it).  I don't know how big that effort was because not only was NCSoft unhappy with their "split ownership" part, Cryptic was growing disillusioned with the level of effort that their "publisher" put into... well... publishing.

Since both parties were becoming disillusioned with what the other was contributing to the relationship, it isn't surprising they agreed to divorce.  Each got what they thought they wanted. 

- NCsoft got out of its unhappy bind by buying CoH, therefore seeing 100% of the results of its investment, and therefore feeling confident in investing more into it.     
- Cryptic got the money they needed to finish their product, brand it, launch it themselves (how hard could "publishing" be? NCSoft hardly did anything...) and pay for the launch of a few other projects.

All that's why I'd look more at NCSoft's willingness to buy and invest in CoH after the separation more than its low dev count prior to that for an accurate metric on how they saw the game doing.   Its pretty clear that after the divorce, NCSoft was quite willing to pump money into the product, so they had some belief that the game still had legs to it.... or enough legs to be its toehold in the western market after the TabulaRasa embarrassment as they developed a new strategy.

Starsman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 286
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #341 on: January 11, 2013, 08:00:54 PM »
When Cryptic's Marvel MMO fell through, Cryptic approached NCSoft about the idea of turning what they were working on into CoH2

WAIT... First... this is the first I hear about this bit... second: Didn't the Marvel MMO fell through AFTER NCSoft had split ways with Cryptics by aquiring the full of the game?
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Starsman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 286
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #342 on: January 11, 2013, 08:06:51 PM »
OK I digged a bit here and got these dates:

Nov 7, 2007: NCSoft Buys City of Heroes
Feb 11, 2008: Marvel Universe Online officially canceled

Mind you, these are announcement dates, with just 4 months in between... but I would imagine Marvel would be very fast on telling the world the deal was off. For the purchase to be due to MUO cancelation, the thing would have been officially off mid-October, 2007 at minimum (giving minimum of 2-3 weeks negotiations for all you said happened above)
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

chasearcanum

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 125
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #343 on: January 11, 2013, 08:16:55 PM »
WAIT... First... this is the first I hear about this bit... second: Didn't the Marvel MMO fell through AFTER NCSoft had split ways with Cryptics by aquiring the full of the game?

Nope.

OK I digged a bit here and got these dates:

Nov 7, 2007: NCSoft Buys City of Heroes
Feb 11, 2008: Marvel Universe Online officially canceled

Mind you, these are announcement dates, with just 4 months in between... but I would imagine Marvel would be very fast on telling the world the deal was off. For the purchase to be due to MUO cancelation, the thing would have been officially off mid-October, 2007 at minimum (giving minimum of 2-3 weeks negotiations for all you said happened above)


No, this part I'm relatively certian of.

Microsoft was the publisher, Marvel was just the licensor to Microsoft. 
Microsoft is the one that hired Cryptic and then scuttled the project.  This was known well before Marvel's announcement. 

Starsman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 286
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #344 on: January 11, 2013, 08:26:49 PM »
No, this part I'm relatively certain of.

Microsoft was the publisher; Marvel was just the licensor to Microsoft. 
Microsoft is the one that hired Cryptic and then scuttled the project.  This was known well before Marvel's announcement.

Well at least the public announcement of Marvel MMO being canceled is listed everywhere as being released in 2008. May have internally happened earlier, but not in public form.

And the articles over NCSoft are dated as I noted above.

Not saying I'm right and you wrong, from where I stand I know nothing but what was on press. I don't know what may have gone internally and you may know more than me at that level. Just clearing why I thought things were on this order.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

CG

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 408
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #345 on: January 11, 2013, 09:55:09 PM »
Yes CoH current sales were small potatoes compared to their bread and butter but the notion that a group of employees, employees who to you are bereft of marketable ideas, want to buy your property and leave to form a company that competes with you with it is ludicrous, presumptuous and downright disloyal.  Who in their right mind thought they would go for such a plan?
It's just business?

gypsyav

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #346 on: January 11, 2013, 09:58:38 PM »
From the article, a quote from NCSoft:

What a load of bull.... so they saying they did find interested parties to aquire the game, but none they considered "suitable" enough to make the fans good, so... NCSoft found it was more humane to euthanize the game than let it live in the hands of some one they thought was not worthy????? W... T... F????

My thoughts exactly. Who writes this baloney?
Imagination is the seed of intelligence. Nourish it and watch it grow.

FatherXmas

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,646
  • You think the holidays are bad for you ...
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #347 on: January 11, 2013, 11:40:15 PM »
And here is a notion of coming up with a price for the game.  In it's last reported 4 quarters, CoH was 2.3% of NCsoft's game revenue.  So let the price be 2.3% of the company's market cap.  June 30th that would have been roughly $120 million dollars, $67 million at it's current market cap.

What?  Too high?  Come on, it's a straight split.  Okay lets just do book value.  That comes out at roughly $18-20 million.
Tempus unum hominem manet

Twitter - AtomicSamuraiRobot@NukeSamuraiBot

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #348 on: January 11, 2013, 11:51:52 PM »
And here is a notion of coming up with a price for the game.  In it's last reported 4 quarters, CoH was 2.3% of NCsoft's game revenue.  So let the price be 2.3% of the company's market cap.  June 30th that would have been roughly $120 million dollars, $67 million at it's current market cap.

What?  Too high?  Come on, it's a straight split.  Okay lets just do book value.  That comes out at roughly $18-20 million.
Or we could do what they value it at in their books for taxes, which is $3 million.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

HarvesterOfEyes

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
  • Mine is to collect from the wicked.
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #349 on: January 12, 2013, 12:00:08 AM »
And here is a notion of coming up with a price for the game.  In it's last reported 4 quarters, CoH was 2.3% of NCsoft's game revenue.  So let the price be 2.3% of the company's market cap.  June 30th that would have been roughly $120 million dollars, $67 million at it's current market cap.

What?  Too high?  Come on, it's a straight split.  Okay lets just do book value.  That comes out at roughly $18-20 million.
You've made a pretty good argument here that NCSoft's market cap is grossly inflated. Either that or CoH was overperforming relative to other NCSoft products and its share market value.

But wait, they shut down an overperforming property? Oh yeah, business. Makes perfect sense to do that.

Floride

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • Badgehunter Extraordinaire
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #350 on: January 12, 2013, 12:30:30 AM »
I don't think CoH can be lobbed in with NCSoft's other games, which I'm sure is what NC/Nexon were doing at the time. Because...
CoX had something none of their other games had or have - a solid core of players. That's not something you can sell or forecast, It's created by 1) being a kickbutt game and 2) being around a long time. If they shut down, say Aion or GW2, I don't think those players would organize or bring the game to Disney or produce their own successor.

My 2 cents: If Atari was smart, they make Cryptic develop a new zone in Champions called Atlas Park to show they recognize an enormous displaced core of gamers who want someplace to call their "new home". Not that we'd all go there, but it's obvious to me there's a definite market here that's NOT being filled. And no one's demonstrating they even want to try and fill it.
History shows again and again
How nature points out the folly of men

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #351 on: January 12, 2013, 12:45:52 AM »


My 2 cents: If Atari was smart, they make Cryptic develop a new zone in Champions called Atlas Park to show they recognize an enormous displaced core of gamers who want someplace to call their "new home". Not that we'd all go there, but it's obvious to me there's a definite market here that's NOT being filled. And no one's demonstrating they even want to try and fill it.

Yeah I think COX ending is a bit different. On the surface, yeah it's the same. Game gets shutdown. I happens. But the reason for games to be shutdown is usually very different. Usually, lack of players, it's been running in the red, it cost too much to operate or it's become a lawsuit magnet. None fit COX. And I think, and PR side coming out a bit, that if the game was under performing first it would be just professional courtesy to tell the staff, "Hey, head guys not proud, make something happen or else."  at least. Or just plain state, "Game not performing towards expectations and we must now close on this date and such." People will still be pissed but ya not leaving them hanging with vague reasons. Instead they seem to be pulling a game version of Enron. Kill it and sweep the remains under the rug and hope no one puts up a fuss.

I'm not sure if Perfect World or Cryptic could do that if they wanted to and or it would be walking directly into a gray area that is in NCSoft favor. Not to mention I might be alone here but I play CO to play CO. I understand that CO is not COX and is not trying to make it into COX in any manner. I think that is up to the project Z games that are in the making to put in the nods to COX, not the competitor, which CO was, judging by the not so friendly comments before shutdown. I think it's nice enough there is a channel for COXers and  they welcomed us with open arms to their game. I dont see TR channel, or anything about TR there or the other fallen games but COX got special spot. I'm satisfied with that and not greedy and not trying to turn CO into COX. I'm a gamer not Rikti trying to invade another area and take over.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 01:25:00 AM by JaguarX »

Perfidus

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 370
  • "I, ah.. understand."
    • My arts.
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #352 on: January 12, 2013, 01:22:28 AM »
As a side note, Atari has nothing to do with CO. It's Perfect World that runs it now, not Atari.

FatherXmas

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,646
  • You think the holidays are bad for you ...
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #353 on: January 12, 2013, 01:44:36 AM »
I don't think CoH can be lobbed in with NCSoft's other games, which I'm sure is what NC/Nexon were doing at the time. Because...
CoX had something none of their other games had or have - a solid core of players. That's not something you can sell or forecast, It's created by 1) being a kickbutt game and 2) being around a long time. If they shut down, say Aion or GW2, I don't think those players would organize or bring the game to Disney or produce their own successor.

/facepalm

Maybe in the US their main games didn't have a following but in Asia those games combined bring in more money last quarter than CoH did in the last 4 years.
Tempus unum hominem manet

Twitter - AtomicSamuraiRobot@NukeSamuraiBot

JaguarX

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,393
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #354 on: January 12, 2013, 02:02:10 AM »
/facepalm

Maybe in the US their main games didn't have a following but in Asia those games combined bring in more money last quarter than CoH did in the last 4 years.

yeah. And many more subscribers, Aion alone. Even Guild wars had population of 5 million in 2008.

Twisted Toon

  • New Efforts # 13,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 830
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #355 on: January 12, 2013, 04:08:20 AM »
Oh yeah, business. Makes perfect sense to do that.

Wouldn't that be "perfect non-sense"?  :P
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

HarvesterOfEyes

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
  • Mine is to collect from the wicked.
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #356 on: January 12, 2013, 04:10:57 AM »
Wouldn't that be "perfect non-sense"?  :P
If you read these fora there's no shortage of people who will say "It's just business" no matter how absurd the situation.

Of course it's not "just business". Firms fold up when their decision-makers act foolishly.

General Idiot

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #357 on: January 12, 2013, 06:54:30 AM »
Quote
Maybe in the US their main games didn't have a following but in Asia those games combined bring in more money last quarter than CoH did in the last 4 years.

I don't think that's the point being made. The point is, if any of those games were arbitrarily shut down much like CoH was, they wouldn't get anywhere near the level of response they got from CoH. The players would just move on to the next generic grindfest they found, probably not even caring if it was NCSoft made as well. Which I'm not sure I entirely agree with. Lineage especially would probably provoke a large scale response, because something has to be keeping it going this long and we all know it's not groundbreaking new ideas.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 06:32:35 AM by TonyV »

Victoria Victrix

  • Team Wildcard
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,886
  • If you don't try, you have failed.
    • Mercedes Lackey
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #358 on: January 12, 2013, 12:53:32 PM »
It does occur to me that NCSoft could claim CoH was not making any money with a perfectly straight face.  And they wouldn't be lying.

It not only did not make money from August 31 to Nov 30, it lost money as they were issuing refunds.

I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Quinch

  • Guest
Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #359 on: January 12, 2013, 01:00:59 PM »
It's been mentioned actually {possibly in this very thread? I don't remember the poster name}. That said, that doesn't work in their favor at all - remember, this isn't a legal battle where you can win simply by tying the semantics into tight enough knots - this is public relations. If they acknowledge being called out on profitability, saying "technically it wasn't a falsehood" would blow up in their face like you wouldn't believe.