Author Topic: MMORPG - COH profitability  (Read 88692 times)

WildFire15

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #320 on: January 11, 2013, 01:26:09 PM »
I think the ultimate conclusion of this topic is that City of Heroes itself was indeed profitable, but Paragon Studios wasn't. It seems, and this is just my theory, that NCsoft may have wanted this as the studio wouldn't have been working on additional projects with 80 people without their say so or knowledge.

It's possible they wanted to shut the studio down the moment it was suggested Paragon wanted to get away from them in some sort of fit of ego, but shutting them down there and then would look bad so they looked for a reason to shut them down, seeing as CoH wasn't likely to go into the red of it's own accord for years yet, if at all.

Segev

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #321 on: January 11, 2013, 02:49:58 PM »
I am inclined to agree with the notion that NCSoft started looking - without telling the Paragon people - for reasons to close and never allow anybody to re-open the property of Paragon Studios after Paragon's leadership started trying to get together funds to buy themselves from NCSoft. It was very, very uppity of those peons to dare to try to resolve the problems between management and Paragon in such a selfish manner. It makes NCSoft look bad, and how dare they, after all NCSoft had done for them?

I am not villifying NCSoft here. I think this is a case of Paragon failing to realize Korean culture and kibun. NCSoft was offended by this open declaration of dissatisfaction and open show of disrespect. And, according to kibun, the Paragon people should have realized this and made ammends. But they kept making demands! They dared come up with a compromise in place of making CoH2, rather than simply accepting NCSoft's dictates as their social superior.

Paragon had to go. And nothing they worked on could be allowed to go to anybody else, because that would reward their disloyalty.

CrimsonCapacitor

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #322 on: January 11, 2013, 03:10:24 PM »
Don't look at me, I believe I tried to. I hadn't mentioned boob physics at all.

Darn it.


Boob physics?  When did cold fusion enter into this discussion?
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WildFire15

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #323 on: January 11, 2013, 03:16:46 PM »
I am inclined to agree with the notion that NCSoft started looking - without telling the Paragon people - for reasons to close and never allow anybody to re-open the property of Paragon Studios after Paragon's leadership started trying to get together funds to buy themselves from NCSoft. It was very, very uppity of those peons to dare to try to resolve the problems between management and Paragon in such a selfish manner. It makes NCSoft look bad, and how dare they, after all NCSoft had done for them?

I am not villifying NCSoft here. I think this is a case of Paragon failing to realize Korean culture and kibun. NCSoft was offended by this open declaration of dissatisfaction and open show of disrespect. And, according to kibun, the Paragon people should have realized this and made ammends. But they kept making demands! They dared come up with a compromise in place of making CoH2, rather than simply accepting NCSoft's dictates as their social superior.

Paragon had to go. And nothing they worked on could be allowed to go to anybody else, because that would reward their disloyalty.

Sadly, it seems very possible given what we know, though I really hope I can be proven wrong. If NCSoft wants to be taken seriously in the international marketplace, then they can't expect their non-Korean studios to respect them without respect in return. Such a lack of respect or interest likely led to Paragon wanting to leave in the first place.

Segev

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #324 on: January 11, 2013, 03:49:37 PM »
Sadly, it seems very possible given what we know, though I really hope I can be proven wrong. If NCSoft wants to be taken seriously in the international marketplace, then they can't expect their non-Korean studios to respect them without respect in return. Such a lack of respect or interest likely led to Paragon wanting to leave in the first place.
I don't doubt it.

You'll note that they're talking about a "realignment of company focus," and that most of their business does come from Korea. Maybe they're really planning on just staying there, where they're comfortable.

General Idiot

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #325 on: January 11, 2013, 03:52:05 PM »
What they need to get through their heads is that respect isn't demanded, it's earned. And they've done nothing to earn it. I don't think that's even a Korea vs the West issue, that's them somehow failing at basic human nature.

Having some games that aren't mindless grindfests would also help, though. Well, there was this one game they used to have... *sigh*

Grot 6

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #326 on: January 11, 2013, 04:04:25 PM »
How much would this subcompany go for, marketwise?

Has anyone seen a prospectus for Paragon Studios?

If someone were to buy this IP/ game, wha are we looking at as per numbers?

Have you started structuring for a collective buy, or started discussing building for the future, so to speak?

Has Matt Miller, cuppa joe, or any of the old guard discussed this issue, or is this not on the table?

Who were the "Prospective Buyers" that made motions for the game IP?

Thought I'd ask. Any place is as good as another.

Segev

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #327 on: January 11, 2013, 04:20:27 PM »
NCSoft has been almost belligerent towards efforts to buy the IP. I say "almost" because they've at least kept up the polite fiction that they "tried their best" and that no buyer was able to be found. We don't believe them for a number of reasons.

There ARE efforts under way to build a new MMO to house this community. See the "Plan Z" subforums on this site, or check out the Phoenix Project directly.

WildFire15

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #328 on: January 11, 2013, 04:32:49 PM »
To my knowledge, Paragon wanted to buy themselves out (attempting twice, I believe). After the shutdown announcement, I think there was at least 3 offers ranging from $3 million to $10 million. It's said NCsoft wanted $80 million for the IP alone, which is basically like saying that they're not selling.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 07:12:40 PM by WildFire15 »

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #329 on: January 11, 2013, 04:51:57 PM »
The $80 million demand is not so much a counter-offer as a very active insult.

Some theories suggest they felt insulted by the actions of others. If that is so then what they did with their pricing was return the insult in a big way.

If we had more information we could probably construct a narrative of an escalating series of presumed insults between NCSoft and PS.

As collateral to that conflict, NCSoft offered its paying customers a gigantic insult first by transparently-falsely claiming to have explored "every option" for a sale and then more recently transparently-falsely claiming to give a tinker's damn about what was best for the subscribers.

In between they further insulted the subscribers by offering B&S as a substitute for CoH.

This all flies directly in the face of claims that NCSoft has been acting rationally or in reasonable business self-interest. The $80 million demand is the tip-off that the closure of CoH is the result of some sort of fight between the parties and practically nothing to do with good business operations and planning.

It's also ridiculously bad PR, corporate citizenship or whatever you want to term those things you do to maintain a good reputation in the marketplace. It probably didn't start out as a death wish, but it's sure looking like one now.

Some may continue to try to rationalize about how or whether their behavior toward PS was justified, but their behavior towards their paying customers has no justification and for a business to do this is downright suicidal. Nothing any of us as players did by supporting the game for upwards of 8 years (at least in my case) warrants such shabby treatment from NCSoft, but NCSoft's management sure believe it does. (Hence they are obnoxious cretins.)

JaguarX

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #330 on: January 11, 2013, 05:18:09 PM »

Starsman

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #331 on: January 11, 2013, 05:26:13 PM »
Is there any reliable citation or  reliable documentation about that 80 million offer? Or just the rumor of it?

Well, I heavily doubted it but this "insider" claimed the same number.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

FatherXmas

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #332 on: January 11, 2013, 05:42:19 PM »
Like I previously stated.  NetDevil tried to buy the Auto Assault IP back from NCsoft and it was shot down.  AA by all accounts was a failed MMO that never achieved the critical mass needed to survive much past it's first year.  If an independent studio couldn't buy back it's own failed game, how did anyone expect NCsoft to react differently when  a group of their own employees who wanted to buy the IP that they've been working on, a game that has had lifetime sales over $170 million and still have over 50,000 paying players, and then leave to form a new company with it?

Yes CoH current sales were small potatoes compared to their bread and butter but the notion that a group of employees, employees who to you are bereft of marketable ideas, want to buy your property and leave to form a company that competes with you with it is ludicrous, presumptuous and downright disloyal.  Who in their right mind thought they would go for such a plan?
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Starsman

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #333 on: January 11, 2013, 05:47:04 PM »
...and then leave to form a new company with it?

I think this is the gist of it. If they see a way to prevent any more competition from existing, they will block it.

Paragon Studios proved they were interested in doing more. Allowing them to go independent also meant they would eventually make more games. Even if it took years, and even if other studios still will be created to compete in the crowded MMO space, that's something NCSoft rather minimize.

Few companies  understand the MMO space the way SoE does (who allowed the Pirates of Burning Sea guys to go indie with their game.)
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Triplash

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #334 on: January 11, 2013, 05:50:22 PM »
Yippee-ki-yay Mister Falcon

That line is hilarious, I've been saying it ever since I saw that movie on tv. Seriously, the things TBS used to replace swear words with... it cracked me up to no end. My other favorite of theirs was from Tremors, they had swapped out a particularly curse-y line for "Forget you, you slug in a ditch!" I just about lost it ;D

Segev

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #335 on: January 11, 2013, 06:03:10 PM »
Lest anybody mistake me, I'm not "justifying" NCSoft's behavior. Paragon was acting perfectly reasonably. "We'd like to sever relations and run things ourselves; can we part as friends and by the way we'd like to pay you for all you've done for us until now," is totally equitable and amicable. NCSoft chose to take offense at this. They may be "right" in that it was rude by Korean standards, but that's not an excuse for failing in their own nunchi to understand that they're not dealing with Koreans.

Ironwolf

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #336 on: January 11, 2013, 06:11:28 PM »
Segev - I had something like this a while back that the reason for the shutdown was in what the employee said. They dared to try to buy themselves out from under the loving arms of NCSoft?

NCSoft was never OFFERED $80 million - it is what they said they needed to have PRIOR to closure to sell the game outright. Valve was said to have offered the taxation value of the IP that NCSoft lists - $3 Million. I would imagine a serious offer of $8-10 million might get the game free from them as long as it wasn't tied to any former employees.

Disney, Valve, Blizzard or some Google investor might do it and THEN go employ a couple former Devs. Getting Brian, Matt or Melissa and then talking to NCSoft would in my opinion be complete failure.

TonyV

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #337 on: January 11, 2013, 06:47:54 PM »
Like I previously stated.  NetDevil tried to buy the Auto Assault IP back from NCsoft and it was shot down.  AA by all accounts was a failed MMO that never achieved the critical mass needed to survive much past it's first year.

By the way, I don't deny that Auto Assault was unprofitable.  I think that one of the game's designer's came right out and said it.  But one thing that is lost when that tidbit is thrown out is that it was by NCsoft's own doing.  Auto Assault was, believe it or not, considered pretty spiffy for its time in that I don't think there had ever been a vehicle-based MMO until then, and it used some interesting technology in realizing it.

The marketing that NCsoft provided for City of Heroes was absolutely lavish compared to what poor Auto Assault got.  Do you remember seeing any ads for Auto Assault?  To be honest, if it hadn't been for City of Heroes, I wouldn't have even known that game existed, and that's a shame.  Also, if I recall correctly, NCsoft laid off a bunch of the Auto Assault development team beyond normal post-launch scaling down, which some (probably rightly) felt contributed to the game's decline.

If this all sounds hauntingly familiar, it's because it is--City of Heroes had barely any advertising.  What publicity it managed to get was generally because of the folks at Paragon Studios and the community, not because of NCsoft.  And yeah, City of Heroes at one point had serious layoffs to the point of the development team being ridiculously small--15 people.  To be honest, I'm surprised that the game didn't die then.  But for the unbelievable efforts of those 15 people, it probably would have.

What's really disturbing to me is that these are problems that publishers are supposed to help with, not actively cause.  I mean, the reason a small- to medium-sized studio goes to a major publisher like this is not to help write the game or have someone dictate what kind of microtransaction model they should use, duh.  It's because development studios typically don't have the resources to bring the product to market and sustain it in the first few months after launch.  It's the publisher's primary responsibility to provide marketing for the game and ensure that the developers have the resources they need to successfully build and support the product, and in exchange, it gets to profit off the long-term profits that the game brings in.

By this standard, NCsoft is an utter failure as a game publisher.  They've had plenty of chances to turn around this image, and they have deliberately chosen not to.  I honestly think that the executive management at NCsoft has no clue what a publisher is supposed to do.  Instead, NCsoft seems intent on cutting off its long-term profits at the knees to focus on sinking in lots of money on expensive new projects.  That business model is simply unsustainable for a game publisher, and I honestly believe that's a big factor in why they're being punished in the stock market right now.  Until NCsoft demonstrates that it has the capability to sustain games (and their communities) in the long run, the company will continue to go downhill.

chasearcanum

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #338 on: January 11, 2013, 07:08:06 PM »
By the way, I don't deny that Auto Assault was unprofitable.  I think that one of the game's designer's came right out and said it.  But one thing that is lost when that tidbit is thrown out is that it was by NCsoft's own doing.  Auto Assault was, believe it or not, considered pretty spiffy for its time in that I don't think there had ever been a vehicle-based MMO until then, and it used some interesting technology in realizing it.

The marketing that NCsoft provided for City of Heroes was absolutely lavish compared to what poor Auto Assault got.  Do you remember seeing any ads for Auto Assault? 


They wasted all their $$ on the machinima http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSPjIgoQedk

and the e3 booth:



To be fair, remember- back in this, TV ads for games were a bold new frontier that hadn't been really tapped much.  Magazine ads (AA got a lot), trade show booth babes, and viral videos were the standard fare.

Starsman

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Re: MMORPG - COH profitability
« Reply #339 on: January 11, 2013, 07:08:50 PM »
And yeah, City of Heroes at one point had serious layoffs to the point of the development team being ridiculously small--15 people.  To be honest, I'm surprised that the game didn't die then.  But for the unbelievable efforts of those 15 people, it probably would have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but It's my understanding the 15 people point was during the last few months of Cryptic ownership. NCSoft had no control of Cryptic staffing or the staff allocation, and precisely the lack of resources was one of the strong reasons for NCSoft to believe there was a severe conflict of interests going on with the simultaneous development of another super hero MMO.

I don't think Cryptic would have ever canceled the game, but they would have likely kept it running on an even smaller team in the long run (had they ever have a choice to keep the title for themselves, I think NCSoft's proposition was "you[cryptic] sell it[coh] to us[ncsoft] or we jointly cancel it, you ain't buying it for yourself.")
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.