Community-Built COH Style MMORPG

[JaguarX]

I like the idea of options. Even the definition of "spiritual successor" varies from person to person. For some, it's team based contents and teaming aspect, for some it's the ease of solo, others it's MMs, to another it's the lore, to another, it's flying, while to some it might be "it must be the exact copy with same everything or else" they wont play it. Then some people are hoping for a sequel based game, or some might be looking for a mere homage to the original with good idea. Or a few migfht be looking for a new game that just happen to play like COX. With three or four different projects there is bound to be one that fits the definition of "spiritual Successor" without leaving any one particular group out if it was one game with one definition of successor.

[Ironwolf]

Do we have a Lore book?

Honestly to catch the attention of our former players and our future ones we need a story.

For me gameplay:

1. Super Sidekick
2. Travel immediately or very early
3. Variety of costumes from animals to aliens
4. being able to be a bit over-powered in comparison to other games - herding is not evil in fact it can be quite fun
5. ease of teaming and also adjustable difficulty both in team and solo.

[no hero]

@praetor no hero reporting for funding and kill skkuls.
Woohoo! Fourth signed-up today.

[Rotten Luck]

Seems I have trouble signing up on the Valiance Online forum.  Filled out the stuff but no mail been sent.  Wonder if I missed spelled my own Email.

[Aviticus Gladius]

Please check your spam filter. I'll add a notification to remind users to check it. I'll be back to target specific questions soon. I'm currently planning a meeting with the Valiance Team to get some projections for the community.

@Nightwatch, we're looking to release the first pre-alpha/playtest in about 2 months or less. Keep in mind this will be the very basic shell of the game; primarily something for the community to build upon.

[Rotten Luck]

Checked spam and recently deleted just in-case I deleted it.  Don't see anything.  Going to try again using Explorer instead of my Google Chrome.

Well I'm in the system because I'm getting the message my E-Mail is in use.  Is there away you can send the Mail again? 

[Ironwolf]

Joined and thanks!

Now I have 2 places to talk about the game I miss and both are trying to move forward!

[Aviticus Gladius]

@Rotten Luck, check your pm on here.

@Ironwolf, thanks for your support. I can't wait to see what ideas and suggestions you bring to the title.

[SithRose]

In looking at the Silver Helm website, www.shogn.net, I'm seeing a couple of other games listed. I am curious where one would find those games or if they've been released - I'd like to take a look at them and see some of the history of Silver Helm's work. Do you think you could point me at the direct websites for those games, since they don't seem to be linked directly from your home site?

[Rotten Luck]

I'm also interested in seeing some of these other works.  Would also help spur support for Plan Z: Valiance.

[epawtows]

Thanks to all the support and encouragement of this community, our spiritual successor to City of Heroes, "Valiance Online" now has a home:

http://valiance.shogn.net

Looks good.  Will be keeping an eye on things, and good luck!

I have one minor suggestion for the web page, though- where it says "Welcome to Valiance Online, the Spiritual Successor to City of Heroes", perhaps make it "a Spiritual Successor"?  I know that sounds picky, but it might help with the 'we're all rooting for each other' mindset that I hope most of us are agreeing to.

[tenaveran]

Fans and friends, one and all, my biggest recommendation would be this:

Whichever projects (here or otherwise) you choose to support, one or all, fully research the group you're funding and for your own safety use known funding companies with consumer protection.

One of the reasons crowdfunding options like Indiegogo and Kickstarter are so popular and successful is that they introduce an intermediary that is trusted and accountable to the funding process, that protects both the donors and the project.

Just a public service announcement.

[Aviticus Gladius]

@SithRose, SHOGN was launched in the last quarter of last year as an effort to bring together like-minded MMO developers, we recently redeveloped the site from the ground up with new security implementation and a new visual design. We are currently in the process of reformatting the game sites to utilize the new architecture and to reflect the new visual design. Here is a link to the sites and some media:


Project Gorgon:
Site:
http://gorgon.shogn.net
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JF4F5Qpk7TQ#!


Legends of Etherell:
Site:
http://loe.shogn.net
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/LegendsofEtherell


Elite Units: Agendas:
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/EliteUnitsAgendas
Game Build:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39132392/Builds/eua_pre-alpha%20v.259.rar [Multiplayer Enabled]


Frontiers:
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl40xEtHz
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6aMYj1WcDg


The SHOGN site will be completed by the end of this month. Expect to see all sites and hyperlinks operation then. Also keep in mind that all projects under SHOGN are being developed by individual teams, and not a single team being spread thin. I simply work as the Lead Producer of Valiance Online, handling whatever I can in the programming department and 2D art department. Primarily, I'll be working to see that the project is well organized, that it retains structure, and that it remains a development property of its community. Legends of Etherell is the title that my internal team is primarily responsible to publish. However, you can rest assured that the current team behind Valiance Online, while still a relatively small team, is dedicated to working with the community to product a most fitting super hero MMORPG.


@Rotten Luck, never lose hope!


@epawtows, Well said. I'll make changes to that when I finish this reply. Shameful how a single small word can be the deciding factor in how a statement is received. It was definitely not my intention to sound as if the spot was only reserved for Valiance. Furthermore, thanks for the well wishes.


@tenaveran, In regards to this topic I must digress. Giving money to us either through Kickstarter or through our site honestly doesn't differ. Establishments like Kickstarter, Indie Gogo, and FundMe all create a sense of false security that deflects the contributor's focus from the true nature of what they should be concerned about. I believe that everyone that donates to any product, no matter what it is or where they donate, should acknowledge the fact that with no legally binding/enforceable contract, they are powerless to the results of their contribution. I've invested in 3 Kickstarter project over the last 2 years and have seen no progress being made; each of them earned well over 200,000 usd. What's worse is I have 2 friends whose MMORPG projects have both were successful on Kickstarter last year; one earned 50,000 usd and the other earned 200,000 usd on Kickstarter and Paypal combined. For reasons related to business professionalism I won't state which titles they were, but I'm a good friend of both of their development leaders. They both have spoken to me about legal woes and how so much of their funding became oblivious after funds had been procured. One told me he'd be stepping away from the project with no definite idea of when he'd be returning if at all, and just yesterday I spoke with my other friend and he said he strongly feels the game will shut down in the coming months due to the loss of interest by the fans because of their inability to settle on an engine. Something they both failed to realize, as I'm sure  a lot of people do, is that the majority of that funding is owed as taxable company income. If you don't have a company you get hit with more taxes. Just getting your company establish costs a lot of money, because you then have to handle the financial responsibility along with the concerns and demands of your team now that they see what appears to be potential funding. This is something we've planned for the longest, and are now executing with investors for our other teams. I don't feel it makes us any more of a risk or any less of a risk. I personally feel the entire idea is a massive risk, but the majority of things we do in life are enormous risks. We hop into  huge death machines everyday and blaze down highways or city streets to gain income for our families in hopes of securing a better future for them or ourselves; we do this all to gain something not knowing what the outcome of the risk could be. The Valiance Team expects to have a pre-alpha released soon with the funding campaign launching both on our site and on Kickstarter. Nothing will take place until well after proof of development has been displayed. Either way, the risk still remains, but in time we will prove the dedication and genuine nature of our business and its development partners. If you do plan to contribute financially, please take the time to observer our team and the progress it makes on the product prior to your investment.

[tenaveran]

Actually, although you are correct in that taking part in a Kickstarter does not guarantee that the project itself will be completed, there *is* both a guarantee of safety in the transaction itself (as the transaction is handled by Amazon or Kickstarter UK) and a guarantee that the creator is legally obligated to follow through on their promises (i.e. perks, rewards, etc).

See the following:

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#IsACreaLegaObliToFulfThePromOfTheiProj

That is what I am referring to. Obviously some Kickstarter projects don't get off the ground, but involving a third party crowd-funding source *does* provide security to the transaction and a guarantee that if the project completes, promises will be fulfilled.

[agentq]

I'm curious if any of the titles above are actually playable or had successful fund raising goals?

Is there any tech demo's of what your platform is capable of doing?

Also, from some of the video's of some of these projects it looks like a lot of the ARt is pre packaged art assets purchased from the Unity store, do you have a dedicated Art Department?

[Aviticus Gladius]

@tenaveran, Someone actually showed me that a few weeks ago in regards to a game they had invested in and asked if I knew of legal actions that could be taken against the organization. One thing that Kickstarter does is offset the responsibility on the investor and the organization. Keep this in mind, an organization can go ghost just as easily as they appeared. When you file your Kickstarter, they retain whatever information you share with them; this information could have easily been faked including bank accounts. I have a friend who has a co-worker living illegally in the U.S. and has a job and a bank account under an alias name. An individual like this could completely separate from your Paypal, close it and shut down their bank account; becoming nearly untraceable. Many financial establishments aren't even obligated to share your personal information without a federal subpoena from specific law enforcement agencies. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act  even protects individuals personal information against some lesser law enforcement agencies. Usually a class action lawsuit is required to even put the wheels into motions in cases such as these. Here you can find information on one of the first class action lawsuits planned against an organization base on the failure to deliver on Kickstarter rewards: [http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4912712]. Kickstarter doesn't share any of company's personal information with individual contributors and leaves them to handle their own legal actions against the organization. For company's like mine that is legally registered (and trust me most on Kickstarter aren't), where we do use our real names during introductions, it is easy to locate and prosecute us for violation of terms of services. Here is an excerpt from the Kickstarter site:

Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?

No. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds as transactions are between backers and creators, and creators receive all funds (after fees) soon after their campaign ends. Creators have the ability to refund backers through Amazon Payments (for US projects) and Kickstarter (for UK projects).

As you can see there, they make it your responsibility. Thankfully our team has a great legal team; my sister being an attorney of 24 years having worked for IBM, HP and our Lead Writers wife who is a member of Square Enix's legal team. My sister is also a 4 time business owner with a long history of business management. So, we're more than a "couple of people" trying to make a game. We're a dedicated business with a more than capable team of developers with the majority having working on published titles for other commercial companies; our senior programmers worked on Everquest, Asheron's Call, Dungeons & Dragons Online -- Our Art Director has worked as a contract artist for Dark Horse Comics -- both our Lead and Assistant Lead Writers are published one as a journalist currently working on a commercial novel and the other having released 2 commercial novels -- 2 of our artist have worked commercially one having worked on Far Cry 2 and the other worked as an animator on Star Wars: The Old Republic. Given the fact that we are a small independent company, I think that says a lot about us. Regardless of opinion, you must still rest your trust in the developer. I personally feel a risk is a risk, and anyone taking a risk should understand the gravity of the risk. Sorry if I derailed for a bit, but I stand firmly behind the defense of my company as we've been tested many times, we held our ground, and has cost us greatly.



@agentq, All of the titles are playable listed are playable at the moment. Legends of Etherell has recently taken its servers down as we are incorporating the new server tech, and we're in the process of merging the client-side code and adding our existing coding to the master build. To see our technology, just visit the Project Gorgon video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JF4F5Qpk7TQ#!). Keep in mind these visuals doesn't reflect the current visuals of their project and it doesn't even come close to the graphics found in Legends of Etherell as they target 2 different markets. Project Gorgon, though it will have a standalone client feature, has been developed to operate smoothly in a browser using Unity's browser capabilities. Legends of Etherell has been designed to be on part with other current MMORPG titles like Bless Online and Archeage. All projects are planned for Windows, Mac, and Linux as well. Project Gorgon has an potential investor that has shown interest in overseeing the publication of the game to mobile devices, but that is being managed by Gorgon's internal team. Regarding art, Project Gorgon is the only title with a video that contains art from the asset store. Frontiers has all original art, but other titles have images which contain purchased art. All teams aside from the team behind Project Gorgon and Frontier (which is a single member only project) has dedicated art divisions. Most companies have art teams comprised of 20-30 full-time paid employees. We, however, have about 4-7 artist (currently unpaid) on most projects, with about half able to work full-time hours. So we have to supplement for the lack of manpower.

[agentq]

So none of those titles i can download and play? And none of those had successful fund raising goals? And you don't have a tech demo of what your infrastructure can do?

[tenaveran]

For company's like mine that is legally registered (and trust me most on Kickstarter aren't), where we do use our real names during introductions, it is easy to locate and prosecute us for violation of terms of services.

It sounds like you're making the presumption or the implication that the companies in Plan Z are not legally registered and thus cannot be held accountable by donors. I know that at least one of them is. If that is true then wouldn't the argument you're making here be moot?

[Aviticus Gladius]

@agentq, if you looked at the video links they do show playable titles and technical demonstrations; I'm completely oblivious to what you're asking as everything you are asking about is visible in a single video. Also, look closer at the Elite Units section of that post and you will see a fully playable build of the game which is fully multiplayer functional -- it is also an early pre-alpha build. The other games aren't release publicly, but that doesn't define playability. Both Project Gorgon and Legends of Etherell has had public pre-alpha tests during their Kickstarter. Project Gorgon has had quite a few more public pre-alpha tests than Legends of Etherell. Our last pre-alpha test for Legends of Etherell was about 7 months ago and led to a lot of changes in the architecture, the team, and the overall design. Currently both Legends of Etherell and Project Gorgon have went to Kickstarter for funding and been unsuccessful, but so has various titles that have went on to be quite successful following unsuccessful Kickstarter campaigns. A lot of the feedback we got during both Kickstarter campaigns was that there wasn't more available to do, or the art wasn't on the level of major MMORPGs currently on the market. What I personally believe a lot of people weren't unaware of, regardless of my efforts to inform them, is that commercial MMORPGs often have budgets around 10-40 million dollars. To expect a small independent development company to be able to create something equivalent to 10% of games of that magnitude is accomplishing. Having come from companies developing MMORPGs we weren't to shocked about the results of our Kickstarters or the concerns of the contributors.


@tenaveran, I wasn't referring to any of the other CoH successors actually, I directly spoke out about people/products that I am personally aware of. These are individuals I know that have led successful campaigns on Kickstarter and have talked about departure. I don't speak on speculation, because I feel that's highly unprofessional amongst many other reasons. From speaking to Downix, I can definitely say their company is extremely organized and they do have a solid business foundation. There is no doubting that, and it's something I commended them on. A lot of independent game developers are just groups of ambitious individuals with no real sense of direction, no legal interests, or no guidance. I know because when I started on Legends of Etherell, that's how our group was. Our first publisher pushed us into the realm of legalities, requiring that we brought together our resources and legal experts to establish a legal business. So in direct response to your statement, "I was in no way referring to any company, group, or individuals within these forums; nor was I referring to any like-entity or entities that I'm not fully aware of." Another thing I believe is that a company can and should be held accountable for their actions regardless of donations or third-party investments.

[agentq]

@Aviticus Gladius, not to split hairs, but the video you posted, which i've watched doesn't tell me anything about the state of the game. For instance that entire play through could be done entirely by the client with out connecting to a server, there was no login, there was no character creator, there was no NPC's or AI, or AI Pathing, or combat, or crafting. There was nothing showing anything other then a guy wondering around a map. Not to say it's not talking to a server, or there wasn't a character creator/login etc but it's pretty lacking. Obviously the video is just wanting to show the world off, which is fine, but that isn't really a Tech demo. I'm more interested in what the infrastructure can handle. Maybe some kind of video from some of these pre-alpha tests that you speak of, which might show a multiple number of players in the same area interacting. That would be a step in the right direction.

The reason for my asking is you're showing a lot of anecdotal evidence, not to say none of these titles won't be successful, but clearly there's been some short comings. The thing i'm interested in, what was the reasons for those short comings, is it because each of these projects are on their own so to speak, and it's due to their team, or lack there of, and if so what makes you involved with them? When you came into this thread, you quite quickly took on the role of random savior, popping in to save the day. To do so you make broad generalizations about both projects going on, even though you wouldn't have a way of knowing any of those details from 'perusing' their forums as you said. It's also a bit strange that if you're so tied into indie developers, a huge fan of CoH, and aware of massively and other game websites, why you never heard of either Heroes & Villains or MWM before this thread seems strange to me as both have received a fair amount of press.

Now you're creating a third title, which on one hand could possibly give the community a good number of choices of which project best reflects their idea of what a CoH successor is, but it also has the unfortunate effect of dividing the community up even more so. So my concern becomes more of if you really believe you're doing this for the "community" or you doing it because there's a big community and a lot of PR around CoH and the work to make a successor, and if you're just trying to take advantage of that so that you can have a title in your stall of 'meh' titles that is actually successful so that you can have a better chance at licensing your tools to other indie developers.

Honestly i don't know, but you're enough of a salesman, and not a great one i might add to really give me pause and make me concerned.