New efforts! -- metadiscussion

[Illusionss]

Way to blow what i said WAY out of proportion.

You are the one who said:

...I want an actual team who have ran an MMO before. I want a team who is in one central location that are working 8-10-12 hour days and not doing it as a hobby.

I'm much more forgiving. I will take CoX almost any way I can get it. I don't care if Bugs Bunny is hosting the servers and Wile E. Coyote is his second in command. As long as those servers run well and the players are not played for fools, I am in. I don't have requirements that people quit their day-jobs to host MY hobby, nor do I demand that those people all live together Jersey Shore style... so that I can feel secure about MY hobby. These are not realistic expectations.

I get it you like/support/are part of MWM... good for you. I'm not ANTI-MWM, but I am also not a fan...

That much, so we see. Place on Ignore at will, I will regard it as a badge of honor.

[Ohioknight]

My god! They really DO want to run everything! That's the big announcement!? Exxon is the backer for Team Hail Mary!

Eh, I hope not... They're only good at Mobil apps 

No news, I see, well back to the beach

[DarkCurrent]

Do we even know where this supposedly big announcement is being made?

[erich]

Do we even know where this supposedly big announcement is being made?

No idea, but in the mean time you can enjoy this funny video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc

[CreVo]

@Burnt Toast and people arguing with him.

There are people who share your opinions about MWM and other; But its not worth arguing your point here. It'll go nowhere/do nothing but give you a headache. This also Isn't really the topic for it. So before everyone freaks out and we have a repeat of the other thread we should likely try to steer this right back on topic or at least somewhere close! Especially on the announcement day. So lets all get along and have high hopes for our games return :3

[Burnt Toast]

Waits...........

[erich]

Burnt Toast has a valid argument, indeed.

They raised over 500 thousand dollars and what has the community seen of it vs Valiance Online?

It is an argument that won't go anywhere because people have invested their hard earned money into the project with an expectation they would see a great game produced.

I do keep track of the project and Valiance. People are visually stimulated and due to that reason, Valiance has an upper hand at this point and time. Not saying COT won't have this in the future, but looking at it from a perspective of "money raised" , Valiance has no where near the budget COT has and look at what they've produced.

Just my OPINION, and I welcome people to disagree with it, but we can be respectful of each other to agree to disagree.

[LaughingAlex]

Way to blow what i said WAY out of proportion.


I stated I want an ACTUAL studio not volunteers to helm the return of CoH.
I stated I did not support the kickstarter because I will wait until CoT is actually a game before giving money (In the form of a sub or whatever monetary system they have in place).
I'm not BEGGING for anything thank you very much. If CoH returns.. awesome. If CoH doesn't return...well there is always the future hope it will.


Am I cynical about MWM.. absolutely..as I think people should be. I'm not going to get my hopes up that people from all over the world are going to produce a game any time soon especially considering those people are doing it in their spare time. Cynicism is a healthy thing...your reaction and word twisting is not.


How can I have faith in an actual studio who has been involved in the actual launch of a game over a "studio" that hasn't uhm.... That's like asking how can I not want to hire someone to build my house who never has over an experienced contracting company that has built at least one house... easy...their experience.


I get it you like/support/are part of MWM... good for you. I'm not ANTI-MWM, but I am also not a fan...because they have produced nothing for me to be a fan of...plain and simple. I just fail to see the hype...when they have something more akin to an Alpha release...maybe then I will start being more hopeful.


Next time you want to reply to me..lose the hyperbole or I will just place you on ignore.... I don't mind discussing things, but at least make an attempt to not belittle me personally when doing so..or putting words in my mouth. Thanks.

You have any idea how many mmorpgs out there are all alike?  Have you considered none of us would want to be forced to have to have a healer in everything we do due to the wrong developers getting the game(CoX) or making the game(VO/CoT)?  I will be truthful here, I'm extremely skeptical of mmorpg developers now, even pecimistic, due to so many games being identical.  The reason I AM confident in MWM is because they are CoH players, they've seen the light of designing a game not around the unholy trinity but around giving players real support options.

The unholy trinity is only used because the devs developing those games have never ever seen a true non trinity game in action.  They act like it's the only way to play, so they make something incredibly bland for it.  I trust MWM isn't going to do that because as I said, they saw other ways to play that were fun compared to that bloody trinity.  These are people who actually play the kind of game they are developing, which says alot.  Can you mention the last time you actually saw a developer actually play an mmorpg outside of CoH?  I wouldn't be surprised if alot of them don't after a point.

City of titans is better described as a game made by gamers for gamers who have actually played games that actually had an identity.  City of heroes had an identity, it was unique in so many ways, and it's a good thing they work on it.  Just as much I am hopeful CoX returns, I am just as much wanting CoT and VO to make it.  Because as I said, there are to many generic mmorpgs out there that make you require a healer.

[Taceus Jiwede]

My god! They really DO want to run everything! That's the big announcement!? Exxon is the backer for Team Hail Mary!

(OK, fine. It's not, but I don't really expect to see anything until much later, if not tomorrow.)

Hopefully unless they have something to announce they don't announce anything at all.  I'd rather wait for real news instead of just a big reveal.  Plus Robert is getting death threats because he said he would say who they are.  I can only imagine what people would do to the new devs if they announced who they were, then 2 weeks later the deal fell through.

[Taceus Jiwede]

You have any idea how many mmorpgs out there are all alike?  Have you considered none of us would want to be forced to have to have a healer in everything we do due to the wrong developers getting the game(CoX) or making the game(VO/CoT)?  I will be truthful here, I'm extremely skeptical of mmorpg developers now, even pecimistic, due to so many games being identical.  The reason I AM confident in MWM is because they are CoH players, they've seen the light of designing a game not around the unholy trinity but around giving players real support options.

The unholy trinity is only used because the devs developing those games have never ever seen a true non trinity game in action.  They act like it's the only way to play, so they make something incredibly bland for it.  I trust MWM isn't going to do that because as I said, they saw other ways to play that were fun compared to that bloody trinity.  These are people who actually play the kind of game they are developing, which says alot.  Can you mention the last time you actually saw a developer actually play an mmorpg outside of CoH?  I wouldn't be surprised if alot of them don't after a point.

City of titans is better described as a game made by gamers for gamers who have actually played games that actually had an identity.  City of heroes had an identity, it was unique in so many ways, and it's a good thing they work on it.  Just as much I am hopeful CoX returns, I am just as much wanting CoT and VO to make it.  Because as I said, there are to many generic mmorpgs out there that make you require a healer.

Some people like the holy trinity you know.  Some people like playing that way, it assigns everyone a role they need to follow.  Ill go either way, I enjoy being just  the tank as much as enjoy just being a team member who can play like they want.  It's not fair to say every game that uses the trinity is bad just because you don't like it.  Its the exact same as people saying any game that doesn't use the holy trinity sucks.  It's all subjective.  I personally would take a standard MMO with the holy trinity over Champions online anyday.  CoH did it well, very few others have.

[Risha]

MWM and Kickstarter and Valiance online.  I contributed for several reasons.  1) I met and spoke with Quinn during the kickstarter at Mile Hi Con and was impressed. 2) I've followed the boards and am seeing how they develop the world and really like it.  They're thinking outside of the box.  3) I've written contemporary fantasy featuring gaming heroines, and I also considered this a business move.  I bought an NPC and an exploration badge I may be able to use for subtle promotion.

Re: Valiance online 1) They didn't go through kickstarter and I was leery of handing my $$ over.  2) Several times I've tried to register, and due to whatever, their forms don't work on my computer.  I've asked for help, they say it's fixed, and I still can't register. Three times and I was done.  3) I tried the alpha and was unimpressed.  It's pretty.  I died a lot, no doubt due to being out of a game for a while and the powers I chose.  That makes me think that the powers I might want to choose will make me weak in the game.  4) There was a bug that when I died my breasts separated from my body.  Sort of amusing and ... not.

[LaughingAlex]

Some people like the holy trinity you know.  Some people like playing that way, it assigns everyone a role they need to follow.  Ill go either way, I enjoy being just  the tank as much as enjoy just being a team member who can play like they want.  It's not fair to say every game that uses the trinity is bad just because you don't like it.  Its the exact same as people saying any game that doesn't use the holy trinity sucks.  It's all subjective.  I personally would take a standard MMO with the holy trinity over Champions online anyday.  CoH did it well, very few others have.

I don't enjoy a game when the very tactic used is especially repetitive though and also the only one.  MMORPGS are stagnant now for that and the grind, though.  This is the year 2014, not 1999.  It wouldn't be seen as a problem in 2004 but again, 2014 not then.  People want newer things, why do you think GW2 changed it and why do you think EQ Next is abandoning it?

Edit: I wanted to add, the core problems of trinity play again. 

One: Often it's the only tactic that works in most mmorpgs.  It should just be a tactic, not the sole and only one.  But most mmorpgs are designed so it's truely the only one.

Two:  It's highly inflexible.  I've said this countless times and have given countless reasons for this inflexibility.

Three: It limits what developers can do.  The AI has to be as stupid as it gets to fall for the trinity.  It doesn't work in pvp for a reason, it lives and dies on predictable opponents(and humans are never predictable opponents).  When a developer makes the entire game play around the trinity, they have to make the AI predictable.  This leads to....

Four: Every encounter going the same every time exactly the every time other than the skin of the boss.  This only adds severely to the repetitiveness of the grind already in place.  Even Diablo 2 and 3 are not as repetitive as the usual massively multiplayer online holy trinity grindfest.

When you design a game around a tactic that was designed for a very limited AI in the year 1999 as if your game is being made in 1999, you limit the potential you can get out of it. 

[Burnt Toast]

No clue why you bothered quoting me in your reply...
Whatever team takes over CoH will run it in maintenance mode... so your holy trinity rant has no validity.
You honestly think ANY team that gets CoH and works on CoH2 is going to stray from the model of CoH?? That's a HUE leap of negativity you took there.


Whatever team gets CoH...would be smart to keep the core mechanics etc that make CoH ...CoH. There is no guarantee that any team will mess with those mechanics...nor that they won't...because that is so far in the future it makes absolutely no sense to assume anything. Insinuating either way is simply grasping at straws to further an "argument" against one or the other.

You have any idea how many mmorpgs out there are all alike?  Have you considered none of us would want to be forced to have to have a healer in everything we do due to the wrong developers getting the game(CoX) or making the game(VO/CoT)?  I will be truthful here, I'm extremely skeptical of mmorpg developers now, even pecimistic, due to so many games being identical.  The reason I AM confident in MWM is because they are CoH players, they've seen the light of designing a game not around the unholy trinity but around giving players real support options.

The unholy trinity is only used because the devs developing those games have never ever seen a true non trinity game in action.  They act like it's the only way to play, so they make something incredibly bland for it.  I trust MWM isn't going to do that because as I said, they saw other ways to play that were fun compared to that bloody trinity.  These are people who actually play the kind of game they are developing, which says alot.  Can you mention the last time you actually saw a developer actually play an mmorpg outside of CoH?  I wouldn't be surprised if alot of them don't after a point.

City of titans is better described as a game made by gamers for gamers who have actually played games that actually had an identity.  City of heroes had an identity, it was unique in so many ways, and it's a good thing they work on it.  Just as much I am hopeful CoX returns, I am just as much wanting CoT and VO to make it.  Because as I said, there are to many generic mmorpgs out there that make you require a healer.

[Kistulot]

CoH was my first MMO - but I've played others since. WoW, CO, and FFXIV ARR for the longest stretches of time with at least a dabbling in most that F2P has to offer.

CoH has a lot of elements of the trinity. If you play CoH like you would a trinity game, things don't go half bad. Tanks keep aggro, supports keep everyone going and enemies not, and dps burns things down so fast no one has to worry about getting bored.

The differences that stand out the most to me (besides that tanks can still be dps, support can still be dps, and dps can be other things too) are really mainly two. One: CC is AMAZING in CoH. You can tank with characters who can't take a hit. I teamed with a group of otherwise Controllers and Dominators when I was leveling my blaster, and I was never at risk from the sheer amount of lockdown keeping the enemies at bay. Two: you don't need the other classes to do what you do.

The latter is what stands out to me the most since I was never as big on the control using ATs. When I tanked as Argent Girl, my elec/elec brute, I did it assuming I was the be all end all of the team's life. I held all the aggro, and I kept myself alive. My responsibility. If you're a tank in another game without backup to heal you... you die. And that isn't because you're bad. you die because the game is structured around every character lacking something so you NEED to team. In CoH you benefited greatly from teaming, but because it was fun, because you got to concentrate more on what you built to do, and other benefits like increased XP.

So I want a game where I can play, and my performance comes back down to me. The team will still matter, I'll wanna help them, they'll benefit from having me around... but I won't drop because my healer accidentally runs out of their resource after I get hit with an alpha.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I don't enjoy a game when the very tactic used is especially repetitive though.  MMORPGS are stagnant now for that and the grind, though.  This is the year 2014, not 1999.  It wouldn't be seen as a problem in 2004 but again, 2014 not then.  People want newer things, why do you think GW2 changed it and why do you think EQ Next is abandoning it?

You don't have to like it, and I am not claiming its better in any way.  I am just saying some people do like it, that is why WoW is so successful.  And EQ Next may crash and burn the same way most MMO's that aren't WoW do these days.  I hope it doesn't, because it sounds amazing.  But EQ is one of the games that helped create the holy trinity.

And GW2 in my opinion, isn't very fun.  I really don't prefer one method of play over the other, both are fun to me.  But I was just saying there are in fact people out there that like the holy trinity.  Millions apparently.

EDIT:  Didn't want to make a new post for the following thing

One: CC is AMAZING in CoH. You can tank with characters who can't take a hit. I teamed with a group of otherwise Controllers and Dominators when I was leveling my blaster, and I was never at risk from the sheer amount of lockdown keeping the enemies at bay. Two: you don't need the other classes to do what you do.

Hell haveth no fury like a team of controllers

[LaughingAlex]

No clue why you bothered quoting me in your reply...
Whatever team takes over CoH will run it in maintenance mode... so your holy trinity rant has no validity.
You honestly think ANY team that gets CoH and works on CoH2 is going to stray from the model of CoH?? That's a HUE leap of negativity you took there.


Whatever team gets CoH...would be smart to keep the core mechanics etc that make CoH ...CoH. There is no guarantee that any team will mess with those mechanics...nor that they won't...because that is so far in the future it makes absolutely no sense to assume anything. Insinuating either way is simply grasping at straws to further an "argument" against one or the other.

I do not think that any team getting CoH2 would have to stray, more that the wrong team could.  Did you see what Cryptic north did to CO?  Made that game into a trinity grindfest for about the most repetitive, undersized endgame of all time.  The fire and ice rampage was ultimately my exit event for that game.  I was ultimately left unwilling to play CO with that update as i got burned out very fast.  The game didn't require a trinity before, now it was and it was in a very enforced way with that one rampage.  30-1 hour wait times for healers was the norm if you wanted any chance to beat that rampage, it sucked, big time.

Because of that, while I don't think cryptic north are the people getting CoX(in fact judging on the location iron wolf mentioned, I wouldn't think Cryptic north is the team, thank god), I know what'd happen to it if they did.  Every buff in the game would be nerfed to a fraction of the effectiveness, so would debuffs and crowd control, just to ensure the attackless empath who was in bed with them got his way to be required.  Because that crap in a way is what happened to CO.  The devs wanted healers to be required again so they added the fire and ice rampage, sigh.

And I get a feeling you are being negative, considering your mentioning CoH going into maintenance mode.  At least it'd have a lot of content and CoH 2 would be being worked on but, even then is that what the team really wants to do?  I know they want to make CoH 2 from what iron wolf said, but keep CoH in maintenance, whos to say they want to do that?

[MWRuger]

I don't enjoy a game when the very tactic used is especially repetitive though and also the only one.  MMORPGS are stagnant now for that and the grind, though.  This is the year 2014, not 1999.  It wouldn't be seen as a problem in 2004 but again, 2014 not then.  People want newer things, why do you think GW2 changed it and why do you think EQ Next is abandoning it?

I guess because they want you to play? It sounds like if a game uses this trinity thing you hate so much you won't even consider it. If there are enough people who feel the way you do, I guess they want to get your attention.

Personally, I think if a game is good and fun then it shouldn't matter. But I'm more interested in just playing the game and the story than in figuring out all the intricacies out of system. As long as I am enjoying myself, then I'm satisfied.

I know you hate it. Trinity bad, force multipliers good, got it! You hate it so much and the players who use it that you designed an AE arc specifically to punish players who play that way. Lighten up.

[LaughingAlex]

You don't have to like it, and I am not claiming its better in any way.  I am just saying some people do like it, that is why WoW is so successful.  And EQ Next may crash and burn the same way most MMO's that aren't WoW do these days.  I hope it doesn't, because it sounds amazing.  But EQ is one of the games that helped create the holy trinity.

And GW2 in my opinion, isn't very fun.  I really don't prefer one method of play over the other, both are fun to me.  But I was just saying there are in fact people out there that like the holy trinity.  Millions apparently.

EDIT:  Didn't want to make a new post for the following thing
Hell haveth no fury like a team of controllers

Yeah I know EQ did, but it wasn't from what I'd read, intentional either.  It was due to some developer oversight if I recall....

Still though, I'll just quote the guy developing EQ Next: "It's time to stop making the same game over and over again."

[Burnt Toast]

Uhh I want CoH in maintenance mode...so they can work on CoH2. I would GLADLY play CoH2 in maintenance mode for 2-3-4 years if it meant a CoH2.
I'm just not of the mindset that if a studio that has some experience gets CoH and works on CoH2 that they will make it a holy trinity grindfest.... to suppose that is to grab at imaginary straws. Just because Studio A has done this or that...does not mean they will do that with a CoH2. A Studio wants to make money...and appeal to their core audience... the playstyle of CoH being dramatically altered would do neither. How about stop assuming the absolute worst until 1. CoH is back 2. CoH2 creation has started and 3. Oh I dunno an Alpha release of CoH2 is on the table??

And I get a feeling you are being negative, considering your mentioning CoH going into maintenance mode.  At least it'd have a lot of content and CoH 2 would be being worked on but, even then is that what the team really wants to do?  I know they want to make CoH 2 from what iron wolf said, but keep CoH in maintenance, whos to say they want to do that?

[LaughingAlex]

I guess because they want you to play? It sounds like if a game uses this trinity thing you hate so much you won't even consider it. If there are enough people who feel the way you do, I guess they want to get your attention.

Personally, I think if a game is good and fun then it shouldn't matter. But I'm more interested in just playing the game and the story than in figuring out all the intricacies out of system. As long as I am enjoying myself, then I'm satisfied.

I know you hate it. Trinity bad, force multipliers good, got it! You hate it so much and the players who use it that you designed an AE arc specifically to punish players who play that way. Lighten up.

More like dynamic gameplay good, the same thing "over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again (add infinite) bad.  I don't play games where I find myself exclusively using only one tactic.  Stop having fun guys may love forcing others to only use one tactic, I don't(I'd rather force people away from one tactic so they have to use and experiment with dozens of others and discover there is so much more out there than one very, very old tactic).

Besides good gameplay, the good game in a way leads you to do more then just resorting to the same tactic every time without making you dig deeper into raw stats all the time.

For me, fun has to avoid the same all the time.  There is a saying, "To much of a good thing kills it".

As for me AE arch, it's also cause I think the trinity is unrealistic.  Not being the stop having fun guy, more being the one saying it's time to try new things for once.  Non trinity play is also especially fun done right, 100s of times more so.  My arch was made for advanced players only, with teams who were at the top.  There were more then one way to fight the mobs I made, just they were made so initiative and good reactiveness mattered, not constant deliberate planning around bad AI.  Lua scripting would have allowed me to really create the grey area I wanted to achieve, to.

I remember, Matt Miller even said, that the holy trinity is more like a puzzle game.  People who like the trinity, like puzzle games, because they can be taken down all the time repeatedly every time with the same solution every time with ease.  So a holy trinity encounter to me isn't even a fight, it's a puzzle.  And the thing is, puzzles, once you solve them once, doing the exact same one again isn't the same as the first time, it gives not the same feel.  I'd actually like pvp if it was better in mmorpgs, but it never is.  I used to pvp all the time in CO until it got boring(And people began using the same tactics over and over again, ugh I remember the uppercut spam days, those lead me to stop, and I was usually stomping uppercut spammers with ease).