Author Topic: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?  (Read 17542 times)

Mr. Wentworth

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Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« on: November 21, 2012, 12:48:28 AM »
I had just added a comment to another thread suggesting folks could still log in to submit a support request after Nov 30th by logging in at http://ncsoft.com. I went to the site and tried my login to verify I was able to do so myself. So, while I was on the NCsoft site I hit the B&S link to see if there was anything new I could dislike. I hadn't been on that site before and it prompted me for my date of birth...

Not caring to provide real info, I put in 01/01/2000 and was declined. I figured, Okay, that was dumb. I'd be 12 and I could imagine that there would be a 13+ requirement like Facebook which isn't all that surprising to see on the web these days. I persisted and entered 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1995 and finally 1994 before it granted me permission to view the B&S website. 18 YEARS OLD! That's how old you have to be to view the game's WEBSITE. So, clearly this is not a family friendly game, nor is it a game intended for non-adults. What other kinds of websites are out there which require you to declare that you are 18 or older before proceeding to view their content? . . . I'm sure you catch my meaning.

Next, I went to the FAQ section on the B&S site and scrolled to the bottom to find this.

What ESRB rating does NCSOFT anticipate for Blade & Soul? Some of the content seems fairly mature. Will this impact sales forecasts?
The content rating of Blade & Soul is still pending. For more information about ESRB ratings, please visit the ESRB website.

Conveniently, the ESRB website was linked here. And they have a handy contact form available as well.

I know the ESRB has their own process for reviewing and rating games, but perhaps this is another pain point we can irritate. It seems apparent that the content of the B&S website is adult-only, so why would we expect the game content to be any different? We should let the ESRB know that we firmly believe B&S must only be considered for the ADULTS ONLY rating.

Have at it!


Surelle

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2012, 12:57:26 AM »
Problem being that the ESRB already has quite stringent rules that dictate the lines between ratings.  And unless the actual game play is even worse than Grand Theft Auto 4's (you can do things like rape a hooker, stab her to death and then throw her in the brink, or run around with your character's arm blown off, etc.) then you're never going to get them to go beyond M for Mature, which in fact is what Grand Theft Auto's rating is.  Heck, you can run around buck naked in Age of Conan, with a ton of gore and decapitations going on to boot, and it's still got an M rating.

And B & S just seems like another cheesy Korean grind fest with sleazily dressed characters. 

In the long run I think we're better off putting our efforts into continuing to spread the word to the gaming public at large via public blogs, forums and twitters/facebooks about what NCSoft is really like to deal with as a service provider, how poorly they support their titles in the west and EU, and how often they shut them down.  Why invest money and time into a company that will pull the rug out from under you when you least expect it? 

And that info made public will do them a lot more long-term (or never ending) damage than any attempts to derail one game will.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 01:04:56 AM by Surelle »

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2012, 12:57:36 AM »
Isn't B&S a gore-fest anyhow, earning it Mature even without the gratuitous displays?

How many Adults Only games have there been? Besides the obvious genre of games I mean.

Valjean

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 12:59:41 AM »
The ESRB tends to be more prudish than not, so I'm confident that they'll make NCsoft jump through hoops to get even an M rating.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2012, 01:10:22 AM »
That could backfire and attract sales because of the rating. People will buy it to see if it lives up to the hype. Sure, they might drop the game soon after but that's still money in NCSoft's pocket.

It is better to call attention to the game's other flaws and illustrate it as something so lacking and mundane that it isn't even worth wasting disk space to play a free trial.

Rating systems are useless anyway. Few people actually abide by its suggested audience. Who here hasn't played M rated games and watched R rated movies well before they were the acceptable age to do so?
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 01:13:20 AM »
Not caring to provide real info, I put in 01/01/2000 and was declined. I figured, Okay, that was dumb. I'd be 12 and I could imagine that there would be a 13+ requirement like Facebook which isn't all that surprising to see on the web these days. I persisted and entered 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1995 and finally 1994 before it granted me permission to view the B&S website. 18 YEARS OLD! That's how old you have to be to view the game's WEBSITE. So, clearly this is not a family friendly game, nor is it a game intended for non-adults. What other kinds of websites are out there which require you to declare that you are 18 or older before proceeding to view their content? . . . I'm sure you catch my meaning.

There are games on steam that have required me to do the age thing before looking at the store page.  One of those games is Borderlands 2.  All it really means is the game has a rating of mature, for one reason or another.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 01:20:05 AM »
For the US? Not all that many to be honest.

I have heard that the "big name stores" (Walmart and BestBuy, and also possibly GameStop as well) will refuse to carry *any* title that gets the AO rating.

They might have it available for download though and from there all it takes is asking mom for her card and say you're buying "Hello Kitty Island Adventure DLC" >_<

I'd like to note that The Secret World is an MMO with a mature rating but mainly because of violence, language and an occult theme (and nude zombies, but that's to be expected of rotted corpses tossed around at sea, certainly nothing pinup worthy)
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dwturducken

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 02:54:15 AM »
From the ESRB.org FAQ page:

Quote
Are all games and apps required to have a rating?

The rating system is voluntary, although virtually all video games that are sold at retail in the U.S. and Canada are rated by the ESRB. Many U.S. retailers, including most major chains, have policies to only stock or sell games that carry an ESRB rating, and console manufacturers require games that are published on their systems in the U.S. and Canada to be rated by ESRB.

Also, to paraphrase Ginger Lynn, if a movie shows a breast being sliced off, it garners an R rating, while someone shown kissing one garners an X. (Bearing in mind that she said this sometime in the 80s, and I wasn't supposed to be reading that magazine, then. :))
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 03:32:22 AM »
I think drawing attenton to their more mature rating will help them for free rather than have people stay away. Remember when GTA San Andreas when word got out about that secret scene, the sales skyrocketed. More people went out to buy the game to see what the fuss about when at the time they probably wasnt even going to bother purchasing it if no one mentioned that scene. I think it will inflate the population of the target and  hand money over to them when the intention was to keep people from spending money on it. And that console game where they added bounce to female chest and word got out, I think Dead or Alive and or Soul Calibur. When someone made a fuss, the sales once again for both game rose.

To tell you the truth I think COX was borderline for little kids online. While the boxed said teen, alot of stuff in game community was far from family friendly and I wouldnt have let my kid play not because of content but because of the environment created by players.


TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 03:46:15 AM »
I think drawing attenton to their more mature rating will help them for free rather than have people stay away. Remember when GTA San Andreas when word got out about that secret scene, the sales skyrocketed. More people went out to buy the game to see what the fuss about when at the time they probably wasnt even going to bother purchasing it if no one mentioned that scene. I think it will inflate the population of the target and  hand money over to them when the intention was to keep people from spending money on it. And that console game where they added bounce to female chest and word got out, I think Dead or Alive and or Soul Calibur. When someone made a fuss, the sales once again for both game rose.

Though to its credit, DOA, or DOA3 specifically, had what I think were the best mechanics and game play of any fighter game I've ever seen. Soul Calibur was pretty innovative as well, though not quite as good as DOA.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 03:51:19 AM »
I had just added a comment to another thread suggesting folks could still log in to submit a support request after Nov 30th by logging in at http://ncsoft.com. I went to the site and tried my login to verify I was able to do so myself. So, while I was on the NCsoft site I hit the B&S link to see if there was anything new I could dislike. I hadn't been on that site before and it prompted me for my date of birth...

Not caring to provide real info, I put in 01/01/2000 and was declined. I figured, Okay, that was dumb. I'd be 12 and I could imagine that there would be a 13+ requirement like Facebook which isn't all that surprising to see on the web these days. I persisted and entered 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, 1995 and finally 1994 before it granted me permission to view the B&S website. 18 YEARS OLD! That's how old you have to be to view the game's WEBSITE. So, clearly this is not a family friendly game, nor is it a game intended for non-adults. What other kinds of websites are out there which require you to declare that you are 18 or older before proceeding to view their content? . . . I'm sure you catch my meaning.

Next, I went to the FAQ section on the B&S site and scrolled to the bottom to find this.

What ESRB rating does NCSOFT anticipate for Blade & Soul? Some of the content seems fairly mature. Will this impact sales forecasts?
The content rating of Blade & Soul is still pending. For more information about ESRB ratings, please visit the ESRB website.

Conveniently, the ESRB website was linked here. And they have a handy contact form available as well.

I know the ESRB has their own process for reviewing and rating games, but perhaps this is another pain point we can irritate. It seems apparent that the content of the B&S website is adult-only, so why would we expect the game content to be any different? We should let the ESRB know that we firmly believe B&S must only be considered for the ADULTS ONLY rating.

Have at it!

I'm actually against this sort of thing. If we want to hurt them economically through not buying and telling others not to buy because we believe either the game is bad, or the company does bad things or what not, fine. If we want to boycott and get others to do the same because they  treat their employees badly or their customers badly, fine.

But I'm not really interested in this idea that we should use government censorship to (effectively) ban a game. This game might not necessarily be considered good taste for you personally. I understand that. But to try to get the government to ban it just strikes a sort of nerve with me I dislike.

If you're not a fan of the sexualized costumes in the game, then by all means don't purchase the game. Ask your friends who otherwise do not like this sort of content to not buy it. But please don't call for censorship.

We don't need to be the nagging mothers that complained about gaming since it's inception.

Sekoia

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 04:10:41 AM »
But I'm not really interested in this idea that we should use government censorship to (effectively) ban a game. This game might not necessarily be considered good taste for you personally. I understand that. But to try to get the government to ban it just strikes a sort of nerve with me I dislike.

The ESRB is not in any way linked to the government. They are an independent organization, and in fact they operate in both the US and Canada. The US government does not require games to be rated by the ESRB; rather, the industry itself effectively mandates that (though it's still technically voluntary).

avelworldcreator

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 04:45:59 AM »
List of ESRB AO rated games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AO-rated_products

How many? And why? That many. And those are the reasons given. :)
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Aggelakis

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 04:48:49 AM »
But I'm not really interested in this idea that we should use government censorship to (effectively) ban a game. This game might not necessarily be considered good taste for you personally. I understand that. But to try to get the government to ban it just strikes a sort of nerve with me I dislike.
Aside from erroneously linking the government like Sekoia mentions, it's not even "effectively" a ban. ESRB is 100% voluntary for PC games (most [all?] console companies require ESRB ratings). All an AO rating would do is remove it from sale at Walmart (who is not likely to carry it anyway, its PC game section is vanishingly small) and BestBuy (who may not carry it anyway, its PC game section is bigger than Walmart but is dominated by WoW and casual games). It wouldn't do anything about getting it online (kids lie about their ages all the time - I know I did when I was on the internet in 1995).
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 07:04:25 AM »
Monitor whether or not the actual game installation requires age verification... if it doesn't, you have something more to go to the media with. This is far more adult content than Mass Effect. :)
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2012, 02:16:05 PM »
The Secret World gets a PEGI 16 rating, which it shares with Star Wars The Old Republic, City of Heroes,

I was never able to figure out what constituted the "suggestive themes" listed on the CoH rating description.  Pardon the pun, but does anyone have any ...suggestions... as to what they were?

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2012, 07:37:32 PM »
I don't really see the point of such an action, except as a petulant temper tantrum.

I love COH.  I preordered, I played since launch, and I'm sorry to see it go.  But turning that into some sort of pointless vendetta against NCSoft is really not a good use of anyone's time or energy.

Cinnder

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 07:43:37 PM »
You have to remember that *originally* CoH was PEGI 12, whilst City of Villains was PEGI 16. So when they merged the two titles together, NCsoft HAD to apply the higher rating.

According to my GF (I barely played CoV to be honest), Dr Creeds story arc is a good example (kidnapping homeless people for experimentation). There are others laying around in City of Villains that are definitely *not* PEGI 12 suitable.

Ah...that's a good example of content requiring higher rating.  I suppose the dearth of arcs in CoV that felt really villainous could be down to worries about what such stories would do to the ratings.

But does that qualify as "suggestive"?  I thought "suggestive" meant content of a sexual nature.  I don't recall ever seeing anything like that either on red or blue.

Your example does now have me wondering what the category would be for content like Creed's arc...  Moral terpitude?  Here in the UK the movie ratings system has a category called "mild peril".  That one always makes me laugh.  :)

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2012, 08:02:36 PM »
ESRB: Suggestive Themes - Mild provocative references or materials

The narrowest definition of "provocative" suggests something sexual.
I guess the dress style of some cartoon characters is the closest it comes to that.  I really haven't seen anything even closer in CoV/CoH.
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Aggelakis

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2012, 08:08:07 PM »
Silver Mantis and her BDSM bent is SERIOUSLY provocative. lol
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2012, 09:00:46 PM »
City of Villains: Silver Mantis, Westin Phipps...

Silver Mantis is *definitely* suggestive with some of the stuff she says when she is getting hit... definite S&M connotation there.

Only Silver Mantis meets the criteria. The closest to anything of that nature by Phipps is him musing about what could be done with a couple of blind girls and their desperate mother but not enough is suggested to make it "provocative". I just read the mission synopsis. Excellent character development.
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voltknuckle

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2012, 09:51:21 PM »
I think we should be focusing on NCsoft rather than harping on B&S so much.

Quote from: Rule #19 of the internet
the more you hate it, the stronger it gets.

so what that it was make by the korean equivalent of rob liefield?
so what is has rendered bits and tits?

just focusing on B&S just nips at the tail of the snake, when we should be nailing the head: NCSoft itself!

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 02:38:23 AM »
I don't really see the point of such an action, except as a petulant temper tantrum.

I love COH.  I preordered, I played since launch, and I'm sorry to see it go.  But turning that into some sort of pointless vendetta against NCSoft is really not a good use of anyone's time or energy.

You have made a single post on this forum, and clearly have not troubled yourself to read anything else on it.  The actions of those of us here against NCSoft are not a "petulant temper tantrum" as you so impolitely put it.  They are intended to make it so painful for NCSoft to cybersquat on the code and IP of CoH that they will sell it to someone else who will revive the game.

But of course, you are entitled to your unicornish opinion.
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LuchRi

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2012, 02:44:15 AM »
You know what? I really hope we can't influence the ESRB rating, because I don't think we should.

First, while htis may be in some way about Blade and Soul for NCsoft, the issue is that they shut down a money making game with a good fan base and cut down on good honest jobs for no real reason. We start inviting the ideas of censorship and subjective 'decency' into the mix and we arm them. The facts are our best tool of offense. Further I seriously dislike the idea of encouraging any censorship in video games. Should kids be able to play games that are too violent? I don't think so. Do some games pointlessly objectify the women in them? Yes, of course. But censorship begets censorship and we can't throw out the art we may not like without risking the art others may not like.

I think the morality argument is something huge, something we can't really cover adequately on a simple forum nor should we. Maybe not everyone likes games such as borderlands for example, or aspects in the witcher or the like... but these games are labors of love, works of art that have creators that have something ot say, and might be risked if we invite scruteny.

Also, an M rating might up sales. Historically it has for many games since it seems 'cooler' and 'grittier', and lets face it kids want what seems 'grown up'. That would only help NCsoft

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2012, 02:45:44 PM »
You have made a single post on this forum, and clearly have not troubled yourself to read anything else on it.

It's a mistake to presume that someone is uninformed simply because they don't share your point of view.  I've been following the shutdown of COH with great interest, because I share the hope that it might be saved or resurrected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unicornish"; I presume that you've decided to insult me personally because I disagree with you.  That's your prerogative, I suppose.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 02:47:53 PM »
It's a mistake to presume that someone is uninformed simply because they don't share your point of view.  I've been following the shutdown of COH with great interest, because I share the hope that it might be saved or resurrected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unicornish"; I presume that you've decided to insult me personally because I disagree with you.  That's your prerogative, I suppose.

See. If you read the forums before opening your mouth, you'd know what she meant. Congratulations on proving her point.
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2012, 03:35:33 PM »
See. If you read the forums before opening your mouth, you'd know what she meant. Congratulations on proving her point.

I read forums for information, not to learn the local code words that are used to insult people for the high crime of having a different opinion.


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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2012, 03:45:37 PM »
I read forums for information, not to learn the local code words that are used to insult people for the high crime of having a different opinion.

Do you have any idea who the person called you that is? Right now she has ample reason to be extremely upset with NCSoft over this issue. Her reasons are spelled out in a letter she sent to the company president and shared with the community - and is putting her complaint and call for boycott into all her books. She's a New York Times best selling author. "Unicorn" is a code word for a certain creature that lives under bridges and threatens billy goats and the Fellowship of the Ring. There is an odd filter here that changes that mythical creature's name to "Unicorn" hence the usage.
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DWRoelands

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2012, 03:59:14 PM »
There is an odd filter here that changes that mythical creature's name to "Unicorn" hence the usage.
I'm happy for her publishing success, and I wish her well in her future endeavors.  She's also the sort of person that insults people for having an opinion that differs from hers.

As I said, that's her prerogative.  It does not incline me to take her seriously, though.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2012, 04:06:35 PM »
I'm happy for her publishing success, and I wish her well in her future endeavors.  She's also the sort of person that insults people for having an opinion that differs from hers.

As I said, that's her prerogative.  It does not incline me to take her seriously, though.

You opened with insults and got like in return. Welcome to the human race.
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2012, 04:09:20 PM »
You opened with insults and got like in return. Welcome to the human race.

This. You can't insult people and not expect retaliation. Effectively, you insulted people for their opinion, then got upset when they returned the favor.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2012, 04:11:45 PM »
You opened with insults

Demonstrably false.  I insulted no one.

Look, I see what's going on here.  I'm the new guy.  Because I don't have as many posts as the rest of you, and because I dared to disagree with one of your long-standing members, I'm now the enemy.

Enjoy your insular clique.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2012, 04:12:44 PM »
I'm happy for her publishing success, and I wish her well in her future endeavors.  She's also the sort of person that insults people for having an opinion that differs from hers.

As I said, that's her prerogative.  It does not incline me to take her seriously, though.

That's what's getting people upset with you here. You are exhibiting a few traits that tend to shout "unicorn" here (and I'm just trying to avoid the board censor - I'm sure you know I'm intending to say). Right now there is a watch for corporate shills and you have all the signs. It might seem unfair, but that's what the situation is. What you had was a person of high standing not only in this community but in the physical world react strongly to your actions. The fact that you don't even know who this person actually is speaks volumes.

The community isn't that insular. All communities develop common patterns and significant members. When you insult the latter you tend to draw the communities ire.

I don't agree your post count should have been brought so strongly into consideration, but I tried drawing your attention to the history of the speaker so that you would have some insight into what was behind and and understand that you shouldn't take it as personally as you have.
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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2012, 04:13:44 PM »
Demonstrably false.  I insulted no one.

Look, I see what's going on here.  I'm the new guy.  Because I don't have as many posts as the rest of you, and because I dared to disagree with one of your long-standing members, I'm now the enemy.

Enjoy your insular clique.

You told everyone their ideas were a petulant tempertantrum. How is that not insulting?

TonyV

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2012, 06:34:14 PM »
You told everyone their ideas were a petulant tempertantrum. How is that not insulting?

I'm not moderating VV's post precisely because of this.  Incidentally, this is also why I always encouraged people who are being griefed to be as nice as they can, because the GMs will see both sides of the conversation in the logs, and if she or he perceives it just as two people fighting each other, not a lot will happen.  Such is the case here.

Look, there are a lot of people here with a lot of different opinions.  Some people agree with you, that retaliating against NCsoft isn't productive or worthwhile.  And you know, I'm good with that, I really am.  But Lily is right, you did set the tone of the conversation by using phrases such as "petulant temper tantrum" and "pointless vendetta."  VV simply responded in a similar tone.  If you didn't want such a response, you really should have not adopted the tone you initially did.  There are much more tactful ways to express your opinion that wouldn't have drawn such a response.  Check out LuchRi's post right after VV's for a great example.  VV undoubtedly disagrees with LuchRi also, but because the tone is entirely different--one of discussion and not accusation--the response has been quite different as well.

Nevertheless, I'm not trying to shut you up or drive you away.  You don't have to agree with everyone and everything here to participate in these forums.  Hopefully you understand that they're not just a "Okay, here's how we're out to screw NCsoft!" arena, and there are lots of other reasons to stick around, such as: keeping in touch with other CoH players, checking up on news and information, participating in other events, keeping track of the City Sunset project, etc.

Now, having said that, I think enough dogpiling has taken place and there's not much point to posting more "Yeah, me too!" messages.  Please stick to the topic at hand...

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2012, 06:50:18 PM »

JaguarX

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2012, 06:52:56 PM »
 Tony V beat me to it.

"Dang it Tony!!"

DrakeGrimm

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2012, 10:03:59 PM »
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2012, 10:07:58 PM »
Back on the subject, I'm kinda in agreement with those who say we should not be trying to influence the ESRB rating of Blade & Soul.  I stand by this opinion for two reasons.

First, I disagree with the idea of censorship on a fundamental level.  I do not feel governments (or worse, private organizations), should be able to use ratings or other means to limit the sales of games.  I realize that participation in ESRB ratings is technically voluntary, but it's a de facto institution, and if your game does not have an ESRB rating, most retailers are going to be leery of stocking it.  Further, many retailers can and do take ESRB ratings into account, so even though technically the ESRB censors nothing on its own, the effect an unfavorably-high ESRB rating has on a game renders it a form of censorship.  If the ESRB were to shut down tomorrow, and parents were actually required to research the video games they share with their kids, I personally wouldn't bat an eyelash.

Yes, I believe that Blade & Soul demonstrates tasteless sexual objectification of women prominently.  I encourage people who are offended by such to avoid purchasing the game on account of that, in order to force companies to reconsider such honestly tacky oversexualization (or at the very least, give players an alternative to it, like CoH does.)  I cannot, however, endorse using censorship via the ESRB to force the issue.

The second reason is that, to be totally honest, I feel that attempting to use ESRB ratings to harm Blade & Soul is somewhat misaimed and ultimately won't be that effective.  Even though NCsoft is really banking on Blade & Soul being a hit, it's still just one game in NCsoft's catalogue, and furthermore it's a brand-new game to boot.  If it fails, NCsoft will hurt, but it's not a long-term investment, and they won't have wasted too much money developing it yet.  They've still got their Korean games, the Lineage series, and the Guild Wars series, and potentially Wildstar if the latter doesn't become vaporware.

In my opinion, all of the effort attempting to censor Anime Loli Simulator 2012 (Pedobear-Approved) via the ESRB could be better spent generating more bad press against NCsoft and its business practices directly.  If we can convince investors that NCsoft will mishandle the money they're given and that holding onto NCsoft stock is the equivalent of throwing money away (and given their recent stock prices, I honestly think it is), then we win - NCsoft will be forced to make more and more drastic business decisions to stay afloat and retain investors, or fail as a company.  The carrot we've been dangling - selling or licensing CoH to a third party in order to reopen the game - becomes a lot more appealing at this point.

Even if we were to succeed in giving B&S a rating that would cause retailers to avoid carrying it, what have we achieved?  We've lowered the potential playerbase of one game in NCsoft's library, and possibly earned some enmity from its playerbase, which doesn't do our cause any favors in the long run.  To be blunt, I feel we have better options.

LadyWizard

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2012, 11:01:33 PM »
I was never able to figure out what constituted the "suggestive themes" listed on the CoH rating description.  Pardon the pun, but does anyone have any ...suggestions... as to what they were?
Let's see Praetoria had large chunk... feeding cops to zombies, murder and coverup, Swan's erm costume.  I know there was at least one female tank I teamed with somehow did a "barbie doll" nude costume
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 11:13:43 PM by LadyWizard »

Sekoia

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2012, 11:25:42 PM »
Even if we were to succeed in giving B&S a rating that would cause retailers to avoid carrying it, what have we achieved?  We've lowered the potential playerbase of one game in NCsoft's library, and possibly earned some enmity from its playerbase, which doesn't do our cause any favors in the long run.  To be blunt, I feel we have better options.

That's an excellent point: if we were to somehow manage to get B&S an adult rating, we're likely to piss off a lot of its playerbase. We really don't want to alienate other gamers, we want their support.

Plus it'd be easy for this to be portrayed in a negative light. One could very easily say we're trying to sabotage the game using underhanded means in retaliation for them closing City. Even if we would argue that isn't the case, if it looks that way (or can be made to look that way), we suddenly look like the bad guys and NCsoft looks like the victim.

Personally, I don't think they should be listening to outside input when making these ratings anyway. The ratings should be made impartially. You can't be impartial if you're listening to public opinion.

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2012, 11:44:03 PM »
I agree with Kaiser Tarantula here.

Im German, and i dont undestand the fixtation Amercians have with sex in their Art,TV. I remember that Whitney Houston got banned from performing, because her partner torned down her shirt, so that a breast was viewable. I really didnt understand that reaction, and I dont like my Games, Art Videos to be censored because of American prudity ( we usually need to play the US Version of MMOs ).

On the other hand I disliked B&S because of the violence shown in the official Video, and if it gets an 18+ Rateing because of that I totally agree. But I dont want it to be removed from the game to get a lower rating. I think the Game itself represents a certain look at the Martial Arts Genre with bloody Action, and scantly clad Women, that stands as a work of Art. I dont need to buy it, but if I do, I want the original, not some butchered thing, where someone as big Parent told me, we removed the parts that were bad for you in our higher opinion.

We had entartete Kunst (degenerate Art) and we burned Books already in our History. I dont want anybody to difame such things for me. Im old enough for my own decisions.

I wanted to write something like this also in the thread where VV wanted to get Womans Rights Groups on B&S.
That would be the same kind of censorship, where people think, their view of the world is the only right one and impose that view on me.

And as I said, I dont understand the fixtation on sex. If you would rage because of violence. I would perhaps be less opposed.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2012, 02:09:04 AM »
Well the ERSB rating is fundamentally useless.  And I don't go for censorship.

However turning loose the wrath of special interest groups on NCSoft is, IMHO, a delightful idea.  Force them to deal with rabid letters from prudes and irate feminists by the bushel-full.  Watch their bewilderment as they are raked over the coals in feminist and parental blogs.  Watch all those negative posts add up to unhappy stock-owners who don't understand that all the nasty posts in the world aren't actually going to mean that anything is likely to be banned or censored.  It's certainly a hobby I plan to pursue.

I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2012, 02:11:04 AM »
I wanted to write something like this also in the thread where VV wanted to get Womans Rights Groups on B&S. That would be the same kind of censorship, where people think, their view of the world is the only right one and impose that view on me.

And as I said, I dont understand the fixtation on sex. If you would rage because of violence. I would perhaps be less opposed.

Angry women sending letters to NCsoft is censorship? Pardon?

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2012, 02:12:47 AM »
Angry women sending letters to NCsoft is censorship? Pardon?

Yeah, I don't get it either. 

Unless LydiaFrost is somehow confusing the idea of protest with censorship.  People are perfectly free to get as irate as they care to and write metric tons of angry letters about something they don't like--religious groups in the US have been doing that in a semi-organized fashion since the 1900s.  Granted, that's how we ended up with the motion picture code and the comic books code as well as the ERSB, but neither of those meant anything got censored, it meant viewing/buying was age-restricted.  Protest is not censorship.  Protest, frankly, rarely results in censorship since...roughly...the 1960s.

But companies feel an urgent need to deal with mass protest, especially if they think that means sales will be affected.  And I would love to see NCSoft scrambling to deal with, not just tens of thousands of protestors (us), but hundreds of thousands, or even millions.  And they thought having to put on an extra mail clerk to send our SaveCoH letters to the incinerator was bad....

Also, @LydiaFrost...feminists are not prudes.  It's not that feminists object to the sex implied in Bits and Tits.  It's that they object to women being reduced to nothing but objects only for sexual titillation.  Which, frankly, I do, too.  It's not the display, it's the intent behind the display.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:37:50 AM by Victoria Victrix »
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CapaDevans

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2012, 03:10:30 AM »
I remember that Whitney Houston got banned from performing, because her partner torned down her shirt, so that a breast was viewable.

Do you mean the Janet Jackson in the middle of the Superbowl incident? She didn't get banned; the network was fined as I recall.

Quote
I really didnt understand that reaction, and I dont like my Games, Art Videos to be censored because of American prudity ( we usually need to play the US Version of MMOs ).
I'm British and while the American censors do seem more bothered with sex, while we are more concerned with violence, that doesn't make them prudes. It means they have differing values. Compared to dress codes/behaviour in some countries, the US and UK are positive havens of depravity.

Quote
On the other hand I disliked B&S because of the violence shown in the official Video, and if it gets an 18+ Rateing because of that I totally agree. But I dont want it to be removed from the game to get a lower rating. I think the Game itself represents a certain look at the Martial Arts Genre with bloody Action, and scantly clad Women, that stands as a work of Art. I dont need to buy it, but if I do, I want the original, not some butchered thing, where someone as big Parent told me, we removed the parts that were bad for you in our higher opinion.

I do question how anime kiddie porn qualifies as Art; your mileage may vary. However, your argument about no big brother editing the content, only stands if you are willing to allow all subjects/portrayals in a game. Remember the one where the aim was to rape women? Suggesting that is inappropriate isn't behaving like a parent; it's good sense and common decency.

Quote
We had entartete Kunst (degenerate Art) and we burned Books already in our History.

Yes, I remember your history. It has impacted the whole of Europe on several occasions.

Quote
I dont want anybody to difame such things for me. Im old enough for my own decisions.
So am I and it's my decision that treating women like toys isn't something I want to encourage by giving money to companies who do it. It's my decision that I want to make it clear to companies who do that they are costing themselves money. I interact with a LOT of female players; don't underestimate their purchasing power nor their influence on their family or social groups. Ever seen mums network?

Quote
I wanted to write something like this also in the thread where VV wanted to get Womans Rights Groups on B&S.
That would be the same kind of censorship, where people think, their view of the world is the only right one and impose that view on me.

I don't want anyone's views imposed on me, but I think restricting my choice as to how I treat my body is a more important fight than allowing someone to objectify women in a computer game.

Let's be honest; a lot of parents don't look at what their kids are playing and they are growing up with the impression that it's ok to be obnoxious, violent, and women are just big breasts and walk like strippers. It's not appropriate and while I wouldn't want everything as PG 12, I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect certain topics to be restricted to adults.

Quote
And as I said, I dont understand the fixtation on sex. If you would rage because of violence. I would perhaps be less opposed.

Because people expect violence in computer games; even cartoon violence. They don't expect characters to look like anime kids, dressed as hookers and walking like a stripper.


LuchRi

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2012, 03:19:24 AM »
Honestly VV as I said before, taking the wrong kind of stand could simply give NCsoft more weapons to use. I can understand how nice it would be to get people up in arms at it for this or that, but aside from a few fringe news organizations that don't seem to realize sexuality in video games is old hat... it is not that big of a deal. Really if we are going to go after NCsoft we have plenty of other angles that we can, and do, hit. Past behavior that borders on the edge of criminal, Negligence towards stockholders, a shockingly poor foreign market strategy that from what they tell us is the basis of their long term expansion. This is the second largest game company in Korea and they are making mistakes that you would expect to see out of some poorly directed start up trying to make a flash-based competitor to Adventurequest. The only difference is that they luck out with studios that often know what they are doing and aside from shutdown seem to keep a set level of autonomy.

I will say that one of the key things I have found so refreshing about this whole protest thus far is that the CoH community have conducted themselves with the same civility and maturity that made it so wonderful. we are not out to be spiteful or childish. We cannot let ourselves sink to the level of others. Maybe the problem has been a lack of metaphorical volume on our part, but the message should stay the same. We are not attacking NCsoft for revenge but to send a message that what they did was wrong. We are the customers. We pay the bills, we keep the lights on and we are entitled to a great deal more respect than we are getting. Maybe CoH was not the biggest slice of pie they had but a company is beholden to us like any other should be. They refuse to uphold their end of the contract by shutting us down and shutting us out. We cannot simply stab maliciously but must instead show that no business, be it makers of life saving pharmaceuticals or a game development firm, is too important or too frivolous to escape the social responsibility to the consumer.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2012, 03:48:16 AM »
Again, it's not the sexuality that I (and other feminists) don't like.  It's the objectification.  Young men and boys that play games with the sort of portrayal of females that Bits and Tits has get the idea in their subconscious that women are just things that are around for them to play with however they want, and discard at will.

But that's just my opinion, and if it were not for the current situation I would just shake my head at the misogyny in their shiny new game and leave it at that--because reading more deeply about Korean popular culture and talking with a Korean friend of mine has me convinced this is pretty endemic to the Korean culture.

Using that as a weapon to pressure NCSoft into selling however...

They are not going to bring CoH back.  That's a dead horse.  Our only chance of getting it revived is to get it sold.  Our only chance of getting it sold is to put them under a heck of a lot of pressure.

I'm not saying only do this, that or the other.  I'm saying hit them with everything.   If you're not comfortable with "recruiting" Special Interest Group A to add to the pressure, well, I am, so all the bases are covered. 
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

LuchRi

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2012, 04:42:28 AM »
--Warning: While I do not intend to offend anyone with the subject matter of the post below I will be speaking frankly about aspects of my life to illistrate my points. As such I advise discression with what you read below--

Video games on their own won't make men objectify women any more than they will make kids violent. Now admittedly my views on this are probably a bit skewed. I have a rather odd position being both a feminist and the dominant in a BDSM relationship. I am unashamed to say this and do so without any attempt to stir up some sort of sexual greifing or whatever other problems it may cause. Truth is I have always had dominant tendencies, always shown hints towards the lifestyle I lead now... But I also grew up in the presence of powerful women and learned to respect them. My mother, who worked at the family printing press and went to nursing school to support me, and who even now only quit working because her MS came out of remission while she was dealing with fibromialgia. My great grandmother who in her life did everything from missionary work in Hatti to teaching large classrooms full of kids. My stepmother who at this time is currently one of the social workers in charge of setting up a new clinic in our city, my grandmother who did freedom rides in her youth...

To be quite frank I have no problem with objectification. its on my list of 'likes' in the lifestyle to be frank. But at the same time I respect women, I think of them on an equal level. I don't think either gender is inherently superior and most importanlty that you DO NOT DISRESPECT WOMEN. Why? It wasn't because I was not exposed to imagery like in blade and soul. I was building a secret stash of the most hardcore and shocking hentai you could imagine off the schools computers when I was 13 (yes I got caught, it was all dealt with. Kids do these kinds of things and get in trouble when they hit puberty). I am that way because I was raised that way. I respect women, and minorities, and all people before meeting them because my parents taught me to, and taught me WHY I should. Because when I was a child they were patient and understanding and imparted more than rote dogma into me. If parents have a problem with blade and soul, then nobody is hiding what it is. Right now my parents have two sons much younger than myself. They are both in their teens. when they were younger they got games taken away if they were too violent and often asked me what they were about. They limit internet access to ensure they don't look up images they should not. All the same watching these things is not going to have the kind of impact that these studies you reference seem to imply that they will. I can tell you from my own story and the stories of countless friends, relatives, acquaintances and even random strangers i've known that how you nurture a child is the key and parents are the ones that should be making these decisions since they are the ones who have to ensure the child is brought up right.

"raise up thy children in the way they should go, and they will not stray from it"

P.S.

I know BDSM is not well understood, but just in case anyone thinks that dominants 'take advantage' of submissive, lil story for you.

Guy much bigger than me came in to my slave/Girlfriend's work two days ago and tired to scam her into activating three cell phones. Obviously she was not taken in, and when she refused to he started saying foul things, then took a swing at her. Guess who ended up on his back on the floor with a boot on his windpipe...

Thats my girl.

DrakeGrimm

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2012, 05:22:18 AM »
--Warning: While I do not intend to offend anyone with the subject matter of the post below I will be speaking frankly about aspects of my life to illistrate my points. As such I advise discression with what you read below--

Video games on their own won't make men objectify women any more than they will make kids violent. Now admittedly my views on this are probably a bit skewed. I have a rather odd position being both a feminist and the dominant in a BDSM relationship. I am unashamed to say this and do so without any attempt to stir up some sort of sexual greifing or whatever other problems it may cause. Truth is I have always had dominant tendencies, always shown hints towards the lifestyle I lead now... But I also grew up in the presence of powerful women and learned to respect them. My mother, who worked at the family printing press and went to nursing school to support me, and who even now only quit working because her MS came out of remission while she was dealing with fibromialgia. My great grandmother who in her life did everything from missionary work in Hatti to teaching large classrooms full of kids. My stepmother who at this time is currently one of the social workers in charge of setting up a new clinic in our city, my grandmother who did freedom rides in her youth...

To be quite frank I have no problem with objectification. its on my list of 'likes' in the lifestyle to be frank. But at the same time I respect women, I think of them on an equal level. I don't think either gender is inherently superior and most importanlty that you DO NOT DISRESPECT WOMEN. Why? It wasn't because I was not exposed to imagery like in blade and soul. I was building a secret stash of the most hardcore and shocking hentai you could imagine off the schools computers when I was 13 (yes I got caught, it was all dealt with. Kids do these kinds of things and get in trouble when they hit puberty). I am that way because I was raised that way. I respect women, and minorities, and all people before meeting them because my parents taught me to, and taught me WHY I should. Because when I was a child they were patient and understanding and imparted more than rote dogma into me. If parents have a problem with blade and soul, then nobody is hiding what it is. Right now my parents have two sons much younger than myself. They are both in their teens. when they were younger they got games taken away if they were too violent and often asked me what they were about. They limit internet access to ensure they don't look up images they should not. All the same watching these things is not going to have the kind of impact that these studies you reference seem to imply that they will. I can tell you from my own story and the stories of countless friends, relatives, acquaintances and even random strangers i've known that how you nurture a child is the key and parents are the ones that should be making these decisions since they are the ones who have to ensure the child is brought up right.

"raise up thy children in the way they should go, and they will not stray from it"

P.S.

I know BDSM is not well understood, but just in case anyone thinks that dominants 'take advantage' of submissive, lil story for you.

Guy much bigger than me came in to my slave/Girlfriend's work two days ago and tired to scam her into activating three cell phones. Obviously she was not taken in, and when she refused to he started saying foul things, then took a swing at her. Guess who ended up on his back on the floor with a boot on his windpipe...

Thats my girl.

...yeeeaaaah, see, that's the problem though. Too many parents? Don't parent. They let TV, the internet, and video games raise their kids for them. They're -far- too busy to -actually- talk about important issues with their kids. Pffft.
We are the crazy ones, the mavericks, the dreamers, the forgotten sons. We color outside the lines for fun. We are the crazy ones! - "The Crazy Ones," Stellar Revival

"We put ourselves in "the attitude of heroes"--and we all became a little more heroic." - VV

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2012, 05:25:41 AM »
Actually we are on the same page.  The problem is not with kids who are brought up by parents who actually pay attention to what they are doing, online and off.  The problem is with kids who are brought up, for whatever reason, without that oversight, and the only role models they have for behavior, sexual or otherwise, is what they hear from friends, what they get from porn, and what they play in games that objectify women into mere disposable mindless toys. 

Again, my point here, is that bringing the attention of certain groups to the sexualization in Bits and Tits is a weapon, and I'm going to use it.  I offer that as a suggestion to others who would be similarly inclined to pursue that strategy.  If you don't want to, I'm not trying to persuade you to do so.  Doing so is certainly not going to cause any censorship, just a lot of attention on NCSoft of the sort the company doesn't want.  It's crystal clear that they don't understand the US and don't want to; getting barrels of irate letters from parent and feminist groups might well make them think they could face legal liabilities, and at the very least, it puts them in an uncomfortable position right before the launch of a game they hope is going to save their bacon.

If I thought that the ESRB rating meant anything, I'd use that too, but basically, it doesn't.  NCSoft will get most of their accounts via the net, where the rating won't matter since kids that want something are pretty smart about how to get around restrictions.

I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

LuchRi

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2012, 05:26:49 AM »
Well then their kids are going to be messed up no matter what they do. If it isn't blade and soul, it could be anything from Grand Theft auto at age 5 to flash hentai games off of random internet sites at 15. The ESRB can be a good tool, but in the end that is ALL it is, all it can be. A tool. you can't censor art for being in poor taste. You can only voice your view and teach your kids.

Plus as I said, an M rating could turn out to boost figures for B&S in the US market. It has worked before to boost a games sales. Heck look at how Capcom marketed Dead Space 2...

bad publicity can be spun into 'good' publicity very very quickly

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2012, 06:19:17 AM »
LuchRi, BDSM person here as well. Though by most standards, my wife and I would probably be mocked for not being hardcore enough. But the official label aside, we're little sexual demons (with each other anyway) :p

However, I see the opposite side of this that one would expect. I believe anything can be good in moderation. That's just how I look at things. I look for balance, not one side of the scale slamming to the ground and causing the weights in the other end to go flying all over the place. If there is anything in our society that is blatantly NOT in moderation, it's sex. And addressing the censorship issue for a moment, if there's anything in entertainment that IS currently in danger of censorship, it's modesty and decency.

Oh, the parental argument... yes. One of the hundred defenses business uses to absolve itself of any responsibility for society. Yay. In spite of the fact that entertainment controls society, telling us what we like and what we don't like, what to wear, what to eat, how to act, etc. Now for the sake of being too one-sided, for a moment I'll assume that the average consumer is capable of outwitting modern marketing power (millions upon millions of dollars and an equal number of man hours spent on psychological research - cracking the human mind to find the best possible ways of manipulating it). But... that still doesn't enable the parents to do anything. Parents are never even there to say anything about what the kids do or don't do. That's another thing the modern world has guaranteed. Making the cost of living so high that both parents have to work, sometimes two jobs each. Ensuring that the kids are home be programmed by entertainment. And that's only the TV era I just described. Now throw in the information technology. A single device that every child has that plugs them into that system of programming 24 hours a day, and hooked up with all their peers at the same time to reinforce it. Gone are the days when peer pressure only happened at school or the playground. Now they can even pressure you when you're alone in your own room, telling you you're not good enough because (insert skanky pop star here) is prettier.

Yeah, parents are supposed to somehow be able to overcome all of that, when the only time they can even be home is for sleep. Completely unreasonable. But that's OK, right? Because we're saying it to protect the moral sovereignty of business?

Kids can still be conservative if they really want to be, right?



Yeah, they just have to go through 10x the effort. Or become recluses (not the cool spidery kind either).

LuchRi

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2012, 07:08:48 AM »
I think my girl and I are in the same boat as you Tim... honestly the only 'hardcore' couples I know of just try too hard

I can really respect what you are trying to say, and to a point I can agree. However the way I see it you have hit on some larger problems in our society. Families in the middle class that once did fine on one income now REQUIRE two since people got two go get ahead or wives went out to work because they could back in the 60s. Great for womens lib which I will never badmouth but then our culture adjusted to it. And it goes both ways really since parents blame the media, media blames the parents. Personally I think that the parents are the heavy, but you are right htat it is not always a case of laziness. Often it is due to our culture which is long past due for a revision.

That said, I've seen parents do it. IT isn't easy, but it can work. When I lived with my mom she gave me all the attention she could when not working, and my Dad and Stepmom were always there for me even when they both had massively demanding jobs. Still are for my brothers even if the roles have changed a bit.

I could post a HUGE rant here both agreeing and disagreeing wtih the notion of responsibility in the media, the way we tend to push people with children to the edge in private sector culture and try to wring everything we can out of them, the expectations for boys and girls and so on. Honestly judging by your last post such a debate/discussion would be a blast were I not in a Tofurky coma right now.

All I can say in reply to your comment here without derailment is that perhaps its time for a change.

LydiaFrost

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2012, 03:49:23 PM »
Thank you for your views on the matter,

since capa devans cut my post to easy to reply pieces i will honor it and answer some.

My Memory of the Janet Jackson event is vague, but now, that I knew what i searched, there is an entire paragraph on nipplegate. Its just, that i cant understand it, and as you can read in that article, it lead to a delayed transmission of live events, to better support instant censoring.
And that in the Land of the Free.

I accept cultural valusystems being different, but in violence, always someone gets hurt, whereas in sex usualy all have fun. That translates for me to: hurting people is more acceptable than having fun together, and getting that point always acrross through the american dominated Showbusiness market, doesnt help our social life in my opinion. 

I see Art in every creation. If its likeable or appropiate for public displays, is another question.

I agree with Victorya Vitrix here, that Art, that glorifies amoral behaivior or is hateful, is something that should be locked away, i dont think that it should be modified though.

Often you see companies, TV Networks and such censoring Films to get them a lower rating, so they can justify sending the resulting Film at prime time as a Blockbuster to rake in Advertisement money. The resulting films are often 10-20 min short of the original version and have jumps in the continuity that makes watching them a pain, especially if you have seen the original in the cinema years ago.

My point was, that such pressure leads to self censorship, and that makes the Piece less enjoyable and less original.
I rather have it labeld 18+ but original.

For me there is a differnce in the detailation and presentation of Violence, that matters.
For example, a few patches ago, if you defeated someone in CoH they fell an the ground and lay there in human possible body positions. Now they fold into impossible patterns on the ground twitching. I cant believe anymore, I arrested them. I beat them to Death, the way they look.
IN B&S the scene I found very bad, was when the big guy sat on the small and punched him repeatedly. that was needlessly brutal.

To sum it up, trying to force personal morals on people leads to censorship, and censorship is something for Dictatorships.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 04:04:47 PM by LydiaFrost »

Cinnder

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2012, 05:42:06 PM »
For example, a few patches ago, if you defeated someone in CoH they fell an the ground and lay there in human possible body positions. Now they fold into impossible patterns on the ground twitching.

I don't think that is intentional; it's just the broken knockback/knockdown physics that didn't get fixed before the closure was announced.

Turjan

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2012, 09:21:40 PM »
I don't think that is intentional; it's just the broken knockback/knockdown physics that didn't get fixed before the closure was announced.
Indeed, it's the same physics bug that caused mobs to frequently get stuck in walls/warehouse shelves like they were covered in velcro, still possessing most of their hitpoints, but being rendered unable to move...and all the while their head kept rotating Exorcist style. And limbs too for that matter.

tbh I rather enjoyed that - always gave me a laugh, especially when it's a mob that was wont to give me trouble, like a Malta Sapper. "Not so clever now, eh?" I'd laugh at the screen, watching their limbs spin around uselessly as I beat on them ;D

*ahem*

Anyway, back on topic...

I agree that it's not a good idea to attempt to actually influence the official rating of B&S in any way - that way lies censorship and the slide towards supression of freedom of speech. Remember, ESRB/PEGI ratings are not there to affect sales volumes. The folks deciding film/tv/game ratings in any given country make their decisions based on the laws governing those countries, and as such, the ratings they give should not be determined by the "court of public opinion".

Public opinion itself, however, is freely up for grabs... ;)

Getting the attention of vocal organisations with certain views about the kind of material to be found in B&S is not intended to change the rating B&S gets - but what it can do is change the opinion of ordinary customers who may have been considering buying the game (regardless of its rating).

As has been said in this thread already, raising a game's rating can make it seem more attractive to folk who might fall outside of the age category listed - it's forbidden fruit, which makes it all the tastier to nibble on. That's pretty much the limit of what a changed rating would do.

To an extent though, lobby groups decrying something as "obscene", "degrading" or whatever can also have the same forbidden fruit effect, drawing attention to something that might otherwise not even have been noticed. However, the advantage of such lobby groups is that unlike a simple rating number on a tantalisingly unopened box, they can illustrate exactly why they're so outraged.

Sure, some of the same people who wanted to see inside the unopened box might get the same naugtiness buzz out of what the outrage groups say - but the key thing to remember here here is it's the attraction of the unknown that's the biggest pull to the curious. That's why they're curious in the first place after all! Remove the curiosity by exposing B&S as a dull game with gaudy body paint, and the appeal of the unknown is lessened.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Can we influence the ESRB rating of B&S?
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2012, 02:27:31 AM »
@LydiaFrost, at least in the US, I can tell you that no one is censoring films on TV for reasons of prudery.  What they ARE doing is cutting out the parts that the network deems "irrelevant" in order to insert the maximum number of commercials.  It's not "censoring to attract advertisers," it's "MAXIMIZING advertiser time"; most advertisers buy blocks of ad time in prime time slots, and with rare exceptions, single events such as the Super Bowl and the Olympics (which have advertising sold separately) they don't know where their advertisements will be placed, only that they will be placed in prime time.  (This can often lead to hilarious or horrifying moments when a singularly inappropriate ad follows a particular scene in a movie, such as certain scenes from Carrie being followed by feminine hygenie product ads).  Advertising during a movie is not an "event."  It's easier to make seamless transitions in prime time television shows than in a movie; TV shows know exactly how much of their hour or half hour is going to be devoted to ads.  Movies have to be shortened, and that is where you get someone who has to decide what isn't relevant to the plot who decides what scenes will be cut.  It has nothing to do with censorship.
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