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Greetings:
My name is Aaron Victoria, Lead Designer/Programmer of an independent MMORPG entitled Legends of Etherell: Antavia. I'm also the CEO of an independent game development studio, SilverHelm Studios LLC. For the last 3 years our company has been developing Legends of Etherell, unfunded, as a community-driven product. As Lead Designer, I've drawn from massive amounts of inspiration from countless MMORPG experiences from Everquest to Dungeons Siege. However, one of my biggest influences was City of Heroes/City of Villains a game that I played from its early beta release to its final closing. City of Heroes was the first game that ushered in my exposure to team/party based gameplay; my friends and dedicated every other Saturday to it during my days in the military. We never missed a session for almost 5 years (except during deployments with no internet options). It was my inspiration, the supporting structure for our current skill system, and has been the basis of the grouping mechanics in our project.
City of Heroes represents an era that I'm not quite ready to let go of yet, and it's the reason why I'm here. I've spent the last few months researching the demand for City of Heroes and how its closing has affected players. I must say, it has revealed some incredible discoveries. After playing Champions Online, it just didn't have the same feeling. I didn't feel like I was playing a City of Heroes alternative, but more like I was playing another game completely. So I continued my research across various forums on the internet, and found that a lot of players tried Champions Online and felt the same way that I did. After a long meeting with friends and associates that played City of Heroes religiously, I decided they may be right; it may be time to share my idea with a community of like-minded City of Heroes fans.
We started developing Legends of Etherell 3 years ago, with the first 2 years dedicated to story development and the last year to physical content development and programming. About 2 months ago we met another group of independent MMORPG developers who worked on the technology behind Everquest 1/2 and Asheron's Call 1/2. They happened to have started development opposite of us; starting with programming first using placeholder art. Their game, "Project Gorgon" featured far more advanced server technology than ours had, so we formed a great partnership where we now utilize their outstanding technology to power our project in exchange for our help with art. This has empowered both teams to build a strong network of developers working to deliver games demanded by the players. The Gorgon server technology represents a massive software suite capable of easily creating template based MMORPGs. With a dedicated team of artist, programmers, directors, composers, and the community, I believe we can create the spiritual successor to one of my most favored MMORPGs of all-time, City of Heroes/City of Villains.
As I write this I think about all the cherished weekends partnering with my super group, rushing through zone, and blasting my way though instances (Energy Blaster FTW). I also remember all the friends I've made from the experience. Friends who's kids now call me uncle, that I spend time with; it represents something so much more to me and I thought I'd commune with people that may feel the same way. So I'd like to know, "Who would be interested in helping to see the rebirth of a legendary MMORPG?" For the moment a small team could work with the community to develop a game design document. Once the document reaches a set stage, development would only require a small team of developers to push it to the pre-alpha as it will borrow core code from both the client and server of Gorgon tech in starting. Only minor programming will be required to accomplish City of Heroes style gameplay. Here is a list of specifications:
Gorgon Server Technology:
Development Engine: Unity 3D
Client Language: C#
Server Language: Java
Database System: MongoDB [MySql will be featured soon]
Team Requirement:
1 Lead Designer/Project Lead
1 Project Manager
2 Advanced Network Programmers
2 General Programmers
2 Concept Artists
2 Characters Artists
2 Environment Artists
1 Level Designer
1 Composer
As a commercial programmer with over 19 years on-the-job experience, I'm able to help where I can. However, I also own and operate my own local recording studio, work as Lead Designer and Assistant Lead Programmer for Legends of Etherell, and I'm a single father with 2 children; this leaves me with enough time to enjoy a single MMORPG title (which was City of Heroes) when I'm off. I'm more than willing to offer my composing skills, as well as sound engineering, which is something I can do easily between clients at my studio. To support our independent development efforts my company launched our network SHOGN (SilverHelm's Online Games Network), where we provide indie MMORPGs with free web hosting, a crowd funding component much like Kickstarters, and a full forum. Our company does not retain any of the funds obtained from the crowd funding efforts. All earnings are paid to the project's developers as monthly salaries. Upon release, our network gathers 30% of all final revenue which is then invested into the advancement of the network; including the site, it's database, and other network related funding. SilverHelm Studios does not retain any of that funding; including anything towards the expansion or promotion of our company or our internal products. Our title has its own funding component as will the potential COH spiritual successor. Project Managers are held responsible for the management of these funds, though our Chief Operating Officer (COO) handles the final distribution of payments for legal responsibility reasons. The community is then made aware of where their money is spent before it is spent. This is in no way meant to be a "cash grab", and nothing is secretive with our company. We are a community-funded development (per project) development studio and we're proud of that. It's they way we want to run our studio and how we've been operating since it was founded 3 years ago.
Please voice opinions and share your ideas on this thread. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about moving forward with this idea. Who would invest? What would you see done with the project that wasn't done with COH? What would be great rewards for investors? Thanks for your time.
Gorgon Technology In Motion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JF4F5Qpk7TQ#!
[Footage is from October 2012; many visual and technical advancements have been made]
Aaron Victoria
aaronvictoria@legends-of-etherell.com
http://www.shogn.net (beta)
http://loe.shogn.net
http://gorgon.shogn.net
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We already have been working on not one but two Community-Built Projects. Both fall under the label of Plan Z.
Plan Z operations is the last hope projects now both have started Virtual Studios. I'm not involved with the Heroes and Villains project, but am Involved in The Phoenix Project. Both have websites and Forums operation and have Programmers and members who know nothing about computers but have great minds at story telling.
Heroes and Villains is being build here... http://www.heroes-and-villains.com/phpb/index.php (http://www.heroes-and-villains.com/phpb/index.php)
Missing Worlds Media is building The Phoenix Project here... http://www.missingworldsmedia.com/ (http://www.missingworldsmedia.com/)
Just in case this is an Unicorn. Your a few months late!
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These both look like awesome projects, so I'll be following both of them. Thanks for sharing!
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I always encourage people to join the project forums. We could use your, and your team experience to get these going.
Last I heard The Phoenix Project had over 50 full members and over a Hundred forum members all doing our part to rebuild. There is always room for more given we all are doing it as part time hobby level at this point. There are plans for funding in the future, but we need proof of concepts.
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This thread certainly caught my eye. Hearing advice from somebody who's building a game of at least the same type (an MMO) would be welcome. We've settled on CryENGINE 3 as our engine with Multiverse server-side, and we've got a fairly extensive set of Lore built up. One thing I know is a major concern in a supers game that we had to examine in each of the engines we explored: does your Unity engine support flight? (This is mostly me being curious; you'd have to talk to our technical team to get an in-detail discussion of pros and cons of the engines.)
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It seems there may be quite a few projects springing up soon. It's great to see that others are inspired to the point of action. We currently have a fully operating engine and all the tools to make a quick pre-alpha MMORPG, so that will be our initial motion. We also own quite a few dedicated server machines, that are covered by a close friend of mine who served in the military with me. He's now the president of a server farm where he works as a security manager. So he has given us quite a few dedicated machines as a show of friendship. This is another strong point for our company, making us more than capable of hosting the game ourselves too. That would prevent a lot of overhead monthly development cost for server expenses. I'm about to get into these site's forum and see what you all have been putting together. Thanks for sharing this information with me; I'm glad we share the same enthusiasm.
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I wish you good luck on your efforts!
There is a large void right now on Super hero games and I would love to see it filled by a community effort.
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@Segev, CryEngine is an incredible engine, with lots of graphic splender, but from a technical standpoint it's not really a feasible option for an MMORPG. It's core is very CPU intensive, even at lower density which means you're going to be limiting your game's playability to a smaller crowd. A lot of developers often feel, "You can always turn your settings down..." This is true, but it's not always the player's preferred choice. Players will always find a game they can play at maximum or near maximum potential before they play a game that has to be tragically reduced. Look at Archage, it's powered by CryEngine 3 now, and you can see outrageous amounts of LOD pop-ins in the official trailers. It looks terrible, but they have no choice. It's either that or suffer framerate drops at an astonishing rate. My first prototype of Legends of Etherell was done with the original CryEngine, RakNet, and MySql. I got terrible performance on mid-range platforms even on medium graphic levels. That isn't our target market, we want people to be able to play the game on 4-5 year old computer on mid to high detail; not maximum though. Unity supports anything you want to program though it does suffer from the exception of the same floating point issue all engines suffer from; this normally occurs if you're trying to create massive zones or huge open-worlds. This is something I've written a software solution for in Unity even though we won't be using it for sometime. Right now the engine/server technology supports massive zones, just as City of Heroes does. So that would be covered. Unity also has massive third-party support and publishing prowess. You can go to Unity's site and see a massive list of released titles both mobile, PC, and console.
There is a reason why very few indie games are released using UDK or CryEngine. One reason being that the licensing can be a huge nightmare and they present lots of legal woes. Unity just updated their EULA so that publishing developers don't owe royalties as you did before. Instead, after 100,000 dollars in sells you have to sign a special license contract. Indie developers no longer have to be exhausted with legal concerns as we were originally. Unity also has a thriving community of content creators that offer free models, sounds, and music or sell them in the asset store for really cheap. This trims a massive amount of time off your development cycle if you can find something you would normal spend time developing for a decent price. I've programmed commercially for 19 years, working as both Lead Software Engineer and Technical Director for a few different companies. Therefore, I can tell you what I feel are pitfall engines. The first being Hero Engine, because it requires too much effort to import and set up 3d content in the system. Another issue I have with it is that you have no direct access to the server machine. Developing an MMO will always lead to some major crash or server-side error, in which you need to get down to the server's hardware source and probably do some type of mass engineering to get your feature to work. You'd then be stuck, unable to make adjustments without requiring special effort from your provider; this is never good when developing an MMO. The second is UDK, because the network infrastructure is in no way even capable of doing something of that nature. Feel free to look up the Atlas Engine, and see how much it costs to license and you will understand why it's not a great option. CryEngine would be the last that I'd suggest you avoid for the simple fact that it's overly hardware intensive and isn't easy to optimize for a densely populated MMO like CoH. I ran CoH maxed out on an i7 with dual geforce 560i video cards and 8gb of ram and there would be lots of frame drops when clusters of players populated a small area simultaneously. That's just a massive amount of clustering. Eventually you'd have to start working on some nature of advanced culling to start fading out players to keep the gameplay smooth. That's all good, until someone drops out of the game and you see someone fade in while running towards you. It would also look quite odd to have an enemy die and you see nothing there killing it. It kind of takes the immersion out of the world too because you're not seeing someone that is there. You also don't want to be forced to limit the contents of your world just because you chose an engine that didn't work for your design.
I have a feeling efforts will be pooled eventually out of necessity, because having 3+ games in development with all playable will decrease the player base for all other titles including that title.
@Ironwolf, Thanks for you well wishes. The goal is to perfectly replicate the feel of City of Heroes, with slightly updated graphics, and a ton of new or renamed skills sets. The community can then take the reigns and pour their ideas and creativity into the development process once they say the game feels right; the entire time they can be building lore and input at the website level.
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So this will essentially be an attempt to copy City of heroes as much as possible while avoiding copyright issues?
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@Lily, involving movement, camera position, skill usage, skill upgrades, and the likes. The story, lore, questing, and all other things content related is going to be developed by the community. Unless of course the community would like to see the gameplay modified. In that event, nothing will be duplicated. I'm under the impression that much like myself, other supporters don't want to play a completely different Super Hero MMORPG.
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I personally feel we need to focus on One game instead of multiple ones myself. At this point however in my mind is in concept mode. Seeing what's possible and seeking options.
As for your group Aviticus I say work with and on the Phoenix Project. We have developed a good Lore base and have lots of ideas in going forward. Basically a lot of what you want to ask the community was already asked and being cleaned up. A third game concept at this stage might not be good. Someone tried to start a third option Plan Z: Justice, but I think that fizzled.
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@Rotten Luck, The conditions of our partnership with the Gorgon team, limits our usage of their server tech to our network. So, we have no real option to use it externally. I wrote the original system for Legends of Etherell in Torque 3D and it took me almost 6 months to get all the features of a standard MMO implemented at a prototype level; this wasn't even detail intensive. So starting from scratch isn't feasible for us. I've been surfing both forums and haven't been able to find any videos or images of gameplay from either project. Has there been any form of rapid prototyping for either?
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As far as I know. Only some 3D modeling of buildings and such. For Heroes and Villains some costume/character Models.
Like I said you seem to have the nuts and bolts, we have the paint and decorators. Some maps been worked up Ideas of locations. I'm a part time member of the Lore team in TPP so the tech side is alien to my understanding.
Segev is that Project lead director.
Like I said we started with a list of what people wanted to see in a spiritual heir to COH. Then we started seeking engine that could handle the requests. An argument over direction and vision came about so Plan Z was split in two. Me I have no idea what those arguments were nor do I care.
Both are doing what we can with what we have. A set of desires and ideas and trying to get them to work.
I know Heroes and Villains are trying the Hero Engine and The Phoenix Project as you been told is working on the Cry engine. I don't think any real Prototyping really been done as we all are learning as we go.
Hence why I said Join up you know the Nuts and Bolts of a MMO style game, and that's what we need. There are Programmers with some background working on the project but as far as I know none with the requirements for a CoX 2 game.
The diffrence in the two projects come down to this.
Heroes and Villains want to copy as much game play and mechanics of CoX as they can with out crossing the IP boundary.
TPP seeking to make what has the spirit of CoX but new mechanics and game play. A City of Heroes 2 feel instead of replacing City of Heroes.
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@Lily, involving movement, camera position, skill usage, skill upgrades, and the likes. The story, lore, questing, and all other things content related is going to be developed by the community. Unless of course the community would like to see the gameplay modified. In that event, nothing will be duplicated. I'm under the impression that much like myself, other supporters don't want to play a completely different Super Hero MMORPG.
You mentioned "new or renamed skill sets" above. I guess it was the renamed bit that tripped me up.I'm not looking for, or to work on, anything that outright copies CoH. A similar feel and playstyle, yes, but a clone? No. The game was old, and the newer content in it was the better content. I'm leery of anything that seeks to replicate it. I would be looking for a game that had the feel of CoH in that you have to click powers and the content is highly instanced and the team sizes are large. Nothing else should be the same (other than playing supers, that is).
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Aviticus Gladius, please feel free to register on our forums at http://missingworldsmedia.com/forums/index.php
Our technical lead is downix on Titan Networks and Doctor Tyche on our forums. If you'd like to open any lines of discussion, please PM him and include me as a CC on the PM, in either forum. I had a lot of the same reservations over CryENGINE, initially, that you do, but the plan to use CryENGINE is factoring in the time it would take to develop the MMO; by the time it's published and released, we expect current CryENGINE 3 tech to be runable on by-then mid-range or even somewhat low-range computers. However, he can give you the specifics and reasons why we made the choice we did, as well as discuss the ups and downs of your system, more directly than can I.
There may be room to discuss things with you and your people, or there may not, but I think it's at least worth exploring. See what options are available to all of us.
Business-side, Terwyn is our lead, so you can also talk to him on either forum. If there's opportunity here for both our organizations, we should avail ourselves of it. If not, it costs nothing but some time and due diligence to find that out.
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Really hope some of these projects and teams can condense into one. Though, realistically, three teams working increases the likelihood that at least one will see some form of release, which is good.
I dunno, I'm not involved in any of it. Just a vagrant looking for a home, and the sooner the better.
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Really hope some of these projects and teams can condense into one. Though, realistically, three teams working increases the likelihood that at least one will see some form of release, which is good.
I dunno, I'm not involved in any of it. Just a vagrant looking for a home, and the sooner the better.
Agreed, as community it would be a HUGE feat to get a game to market, the chances of splitting up and getting 3 games to market is completely outside the realm of reality however.
I support every effort but coalescing around one "successor" project would definitely be ideal. It might not be possible at this point, but it would be ideal.
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I was reading about you guys while doing the research for TPP. Surprised to see you.
@Segev, CryEngine is an incredible engine, with lots of graphic splender, but from a technical standpoint it's not really a feasible option for an MMORPG. It's core is very CPU intensive, even at lower density which means you're going to be limiting your game's playability to a smaller crowd. A lot of developers often feel, "You can always turn your settings down..." This is true, but it's not always the player's preferred choice. Players will always find a game they can play at maximum or near maximum potential before they play a game that has to be tragically reduced. Look at Archage, it's powered by CryEngine 3 now, and you can see outrageous amounts of LOD pop-ins in the official trailers. It looks terrible, but they have no choice. It's either that or suffer framerate drops at an astonishing rate.
My first prototype of Legends of Etherell was done with the original CryEngine, RakNet, and MySql. I got terrible performance on mid-range platforms even on medium graphic levels. That isn't our target market, we want people to be able to play the game on 4-5 year old computer on mid to high detail; not maximum though.
Archage is not the only MMO powered by CryENGINE, however. Aion and Cabal 2 also use it. I've seen the LOD pop-ins for ArcheAge, and with the CryENGINE itself, and it's not difficult to avoid. As for its core being very CPU intensive, it's CPU requirements are below the bottom-end desktop CPU produced today off-the-shelf at your big box store today. Recall that a 4-5 year old system when we release will be very different from one today, or one two years ago. A 5 year old system upon the planned upon release of TPP will have dual core, integrated DX11 GPU in the processor, 64-bit with at least 4GB of RAM.
Unity supports anything you want to program though it does suffer from the exception of the same floating point issue all engines suffer from; this normally occurs if you're trying to create massive zones or huge open-worlds. This is something I've written a software solution for in Unity even though we won't be using it for sometime. Right now the engine/server technology supports massive zones, just as City of Heroes does. So that would be covered. Unity also has massive third-party support and publishing prowess. You can go to Unity's site and see a massive list of released titles both mobile, PC, and console.
We studied Unity, and while a solid engine, it did not fit the needs, and while the new update would lift it up to that point, that is in beta, and still pending revisions. The amount of work we found needed to bring it in-line to expectations was considerable. However, you say you have a solution, which may change that evaluation, which I would be interested in talking to you about.
There is a reason why very few indie games are released using UDK or CryEngine. One reason being that the licensing can be a huge nightmare and they present lots of legal woes. Unity just updated their EULA so that publishing developers don't owe royalties as you did before. Instead, after 100,000 dollars in sells you have to sign a special license contract. Indie developers no longer have to be exhausted with legal concerns as we were originally. Unity also has a thriving community of content creators that offer free models, sounds, and music or sell them in the asset store for really cheap. This trims a massive amount of time off your development cycle if you can find something you would normal spend time developing for a decent price. I've programmed commercially for 19 years, working as both Lead Software Engineer and Technical Director for a few different companies. Therefore, I can tell you what I feel are pitfall engines. The first being Hero Engine, because it requires too much effort to import and set up 3d content in the system. Another issue I have with it is that you have no direct access to the server machine. Developing an MMO will always lead to some major crash or server-side error, in which you need to get down to the server's hardware source and probably do some type of mass engineering to get your feature to work. You'd then be stuck, unable to make adjustments without requiring special effort from your provider; this is never good when developing an MMO. The second is UDK, because the network infrastructure is in no way even capable of doing something of that nature. Feel free to look up the Atlas Engine, and see how much it costs to license and you will understand why it's not a great option. CryEngine would be the last that I'd suggest you avoid for the simple fact that it's overly hardware intensive and isn't easy to optimize for a densely populated MMO like CoH. I ran CoH maxed out on an i7 with dual geforce 560i video cards and 8gb of ram and there would be lots of frame drops when clusters of players populated a small area simultaneously. That's just a massive amount of clustering.
CoH's engine was also not very optimized. DX9 support for audio and inputs was literally bolted on, not part of the underlying system. It was a 9 year old engine, with the quirks one would expect as such. There is a reason why the plans for CoH2 involved effectively starting from scratch, engine-wise. As for optimization, Aion successfully handles it with a slightly older version of the CryENGINE, and is one of the largest MMO's on the market.Eventually you'd have to start working on some nature of advanced culling to start fading out players to keep the gameplay smooth. That's all good, until someone drops out of the game and you see someone fade in while running towards you. It would also look quite odd to have an enemy die and you see nothing there killing it. It kind of takes the immersion out of the world too because you're not seeing someone that is there. You also don't want to be forced to limit the contents of your world just because you chose an engine that didn't work for your design.
Already have been examining this and have solutions lined up.
I have a feeling efforts will be pooled eventually out of necessity, because having 3+ games in development with all playable will decrease the player base for all other titles including that title.
@Ironwolf, Thanks for you well wishes. The goal is to perfectly replicate the feel of City of Heroes, with slightly updated graphics, and a ton of new or renamed skills sets. The community can then take the reigns and pour their ideas and creativity into the development process once they say the game feels right; the entire time they can be building lore and input at the website level.
The Plan Z section would be the right place to recruit, I'd suggest. Or you could talk to one of the existing projects as well. I know I'd love to talk with you.
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CoH didn't use Dx9 in it's graphics, only audio, input and network support.
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CoH didn't use Dx9 in it's graphics, only audio, input and network support.
Did not say it used it for graphics, only that it was bolted-on. Modified my reply to make that more clear. Sorry for the confusion.
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@Rotten Luck, I'm actually working on a proposal for both teams that will offer members an opportunity to pool their resources under our company's umbrella. As I said, Gorgon technology has been establish and is limited (contractually) to our game network. Joining a team and trying to work on the framework at this point is completely counter-intuitive for me, seeing as our current technology and client-side content build has over 4+ years of code within it. This code will be made fully available to the team behind the project. The package comes with various tools that allow for the simple dragging and dropping of NPCs, writer tools that let creators type and click to add dialogue and quests to NPCs, there are also tools for things such as loot and item generation; the full MMORPG development suite is under our roof. The reason its designers want to keep things confined is because they are developing a lot of content for the system and don't feel it's ready for open licensing at the moment. Our company's programmers are now working on the software as well, adding multiple features for things such as facial animations, animated voice-overs technology, deep guild/grouping features, and a much more complex skill/leveling system than is currently there. So as you can see, we are able to easily produce a fully playable MMORPG with out technology. At the moment, we need support from artists, writers, and the community more than anything else. I noticed that you said you have a few programmers, but not many are skilled in advanced network programming. That can pose a serious problem as there is very little left in the area of "client-side" programming that needs to be done to get a playable product released. Our team is porting our UI code over to the new technology, but aside from that, there isn't much client-specific code to be concerned with. Particle effects and animations for skills are set using a tool and automatically played and timed with another tool. The system for swapping and selecting outfits, and the creation of your character are done as well. Look forward to an update to my original post shortly.
@Lily Barclay, I can see how that may have sounded as if the plan was to do a full clone of CoH. However, it was intended to say that the goal isn't to completely alienate the game from its original aspirations. I do agree with you that the project was fairly dated, and honestly it was one of the longest surviving MMORPGs I've played. So, expect to see quite a few updates/improvements to the product we're proposing.
@Segev, I'll be contacting you shortly to discuss merging of assets and organization. I do agree that all projects would benefit and stand a better chance of success combined. Having worked on games and applications on an advanced software development level, I know how long something like this could take. I do, however, agree with you regarding your theory of the projection of time-sensitive release planning. Moreover, we plan on releasing a pre-alpha within months as the normal 3-4 years of development are relatively done haha. Therefore, we are left with a single option of using an engine that is openly capable of high performance on a wide-range of machines and operating systems. Releasing the game with Unity 4 would not only open playability to a larger range of PCs players (Windows), it ports to Mac and Linux in a single click. Providing access to Mac and Linux opens the game up to starving markets with limited game access. I would bet any amount of money that element alone will keep the servers loaded. In my expert opinion, it's just the better choice for robust accessibility.
@Perfidus, I agree. I'll be making efforts soon to Unite the divide. From my time on their forums today, it appears they have the development potential to build the depth of the game, all they both need now is the technical backing and organization to get a nice playable pre-alpha to the community. My company can definitely help with that. I also feel as you do; since the closing of City of Heroes I feel like a homeless wanderer looking for somewhere to go when all the smoke clears, at the end of the day. It's what drove me here, and will drive me to gather everyone to a centralized location. We'll make it happen, I can promise you that. I can spend about 1-2 weeks adding a few enemies and a skill set and have a pre-alpha playable using our technology, so I'm more than confident that a small team of dedicated developers could have a solid pre-alpha together in about 1-2 months. It's really important to establish strong gameplay presence before folding over into the content box. With the community helping with ideas and suggestions, a small team be would be relieved of the majority of their work efforts. They'd spend that relieved time planning for implementation of content and features immediately; this would greatly increase the flow of production.
@Lightslinger, I can't agree with you more. I've worked for various large companies from Microsoft to IBM, and I can tell you that releasing any product (by commercial standards) isn't easy at all. However, we have something more unique working in our favor; the possibility of crowd funding as well as established technology. If we could establish a community of 100,000 supports willing to donate 10 dollars a month, for 3-8 months that could fund 5 years of fully dedicated development for the core development team with external outsourcing as a variable. Based on its heavy customization options, it's imperative that outsourcing of character outfits and customization are added to the equation. We have to a development partnership with Danzige Studios (http://danzige.wordpress.com/#) and they have already gave the nod to working with us as a large scale outsource provider for 3D and 2D art at incredibly low rates. So, I do feel a collaborative effort is more viable and far more ideal.
@Downix, it's great to see you've put a lot of effort towards researching your options. A lot of developers dive in based on drive and ambition, but hit the water as if it was cement due to the lack of education. As I said above, we aren't looking to wait years for publications as the 3-4 year technology development has been accomplished already. I'll be contacting you shortly as well to talk about our options.
@FatherXmas, I'm not quite familiar with City of Heroes origin engine, but if you were there from the start, you saw the slow implementation of updates which is something I'd like to see the team behind our project do as time progresses.
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Definitely keep us posted if you would. I don't follow those other forums for the teams due to lack of time. I'd like to know what comes of your efforts to consolidate or join one of the teams.
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I dunno, I'm not involved in any of it. Just a vagrant looking for a home, and the sooner the better.
Me too, Perfy, me too.
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Aviticus,
My main concern with ANY "successor" to City of Heroes is, and will continue to be, that it be a community-controlled effort, one where the future of the game will be always be decided by the player base. I do not want to see a repeat of CoH's fate, where the game becomes beholden to some corporate behemoth that can shut it down on a lark if their bean-counters don't think it's profitable enough, or no longer fits into their "corporate focus".
As such, I'd like to see some kind of assurance that any consideration of the ultimate long-term fate of the game always keeps the player community's interests in mind, as well as some kind of control structure put into place to keep the game running under various scenarios. Granted, I have no idea what kind of controls would be needed, but there should be SOME means planned to keep the game running for die-hard fans in the face of declining popularity with the general public.
TargetOne
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That reminds me; I briefly played CO today and just listening in to the zone chat, there were some rumors (or perhaps more like concerns) that Cryptic, because of slow/small updates, might shut down CO.
Is there anything we can/will do if such an event were to occur? Y'know, some sort of joined effort through shared pain or something? I don't have any huge attachment to it, I don't think the players of CO deserve to see their game meet the same fate as ours.
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Very interesting stuff! I learned a good bit - I knew we had two different projects working, but didn't know why. I kinda do now, and that doesn't make me shout for joy. In any event, I guess I'll have to get that second job to save up some more green when it comes time for cash investment.
Very interesting stuff, particularly about the cryengine.
It sounds like Legends of Etherell is about 3 to 4 years ahead of the other two projects. Out of curiosity, what's Etherell? A place or a person? A race of people? a bunch of unicorns?
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That reminds me; I briefly played CO today and just listening in to the zone chat, there were some rumors (or perhaps more like concerns) that Cryptic, because of slow/small updates, might shut down CO.
Is there anything we can/will do if such an event were to occur? Y'know, some sort of joined effort through shared pain or something? I don't have any huge attachment to it, I don't think the players of CO deserve to see their game meet the same fate as ours.
We'd do the same thing the CO community did for us when our game shut down. Welcome them with open arms. But it doesn't surprise me that talk was going on. Cryptic has outright said that their focus is Neverwinter and STO, not CO.
But I'm not derailing this thread with that talk so if you wanna reply feel free to message. :)
Also, hi, Targy.
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They opened there arms to us. I agree we shall welcome them. More homeless Heroes to add to the might of a Plan Z operation.
@Aviticus Gladius If we can cut off production time by a few years I'm all for joining forces and using your system. Now I think you should show us some examples of how your engine and work you have done can produce HERO like feel in game play.
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Y'know, ever since talk of a successor to CoX started, there's been this obnoxious little voice in the back of my brain saying "tee hee, it'll never happen".
Reading this thread made that voice whimper and shrivel.
My doubt has doubts! Thank you!!!!!
I also request additional updates as the situation develops and the development progresses.
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@Perfidus, I'll definitely be posting here frequently. I'm really moved by the massive amount of support our community still has. My friend popped his head in here earlier and I got an email that said, "Told you it was a good idea, you have the capability to see it through. The community is behind a spiritual successor." That really made my day. What I found rather interesting is that he went on to say, "It seems like we never really thought of how we'd feel if it ever ended. It's like we just expected it to go on forever. You should really make tools that let players continue to host servers when you shut the actual server down." What's really awesome is that's something that is already added to the current build of Legends of Etherell. You can completely target a custom server to test the game. This is something we'll definitely add to the Hero MMORPG.
@LT. Couper, I'd say rally the supporters. It appears that these massive corporations overlook the players, and it's the primary reason our network is completely developer/player driven. There will never be any worries of such treachery taking place on our network. You'd think they would recognize that we give them all the power they have. If we just stopped purchasing their games, their company would implode. They are nothing without our "funding". We fund their entire business, not just their games, but their lifestyles and the future existence of our business, but they never seem to acknowledge that fact. While they are taking these 100,000 dollar vacations off our funding, you'd think they would stop to pop their heads into forums and see what we want, but they don't. So we have to do what we need to do for us.
@ukaserex, Yes Legends of Etherell is quite a bit ahead. Now that we are implementing the new server architecture, we've been slightly setback regarding our pre-alpha release that was planned for the end of this month. There is a lot of depth to the game that has required such a massive amount of development time. I'm sure over 60% of what is found in Legends of Etherell won't even been valid in a super hero MMO. In regards to Etherell, it's the name of the planet in the game. Antavia is the massive continent where the first part of the saga takes place.
@Rotten Luck, That's what I'm currently working on now. I had a really productive meeting with the executive members behind The Phoenix Project today and things went well. A lot of thought has to go into the potential collaboration, but it was good speaking with them and seeing what they had in development. Tonight I'll be sitting down with members of our team and looking at putting together a small playable demo to start experimenting with. I'm sure a few of them would like to put some work in on the project to build their resumes even though they are collaborating with other teams under the SHOGN banner.
@Lucretia MacEvil, it's definitely something that we're capable of, so that's the least of our concerns. It's all about the execution and getting the community behind it; implementing all the needed improvements that City of Heroes was lacking. We'll get it done, just as I say with everything else. When I started performing music and composing I was told I couldn't do it, then I landed a job working commercially for Sony's studios in Atlanta for 2 years before leaving to open my own recording studio. At 10 years old, my oldest sister started teaching me to programmer and a lot of people in school called me a geek, a nerd, saying I'd never be anything important. That was until the state of Texas personally recognized me for being one of the youngest individuals to develop software solutions for the state; hell we even got a day off from school for it and I they held a ceremony at school for me the next day to recognize me. I later went on to found SilverHelm Studios, where I still program and make music, both commercially and for my personal projects. I've never encountered anything I couldn't do aside from flying without the aid of devices. I'm sure I could probably do that to, I just haven't managed to figure out how to warp the fabric of space around me to create the illusion haha. Maybe one day I'll have time to meditate on that, but right now I have games to make. You have a single limit in life, and that's the one you create for yourself. Updates will appears as they're accomplished.
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That reminds me; I briefly played CO today and just listening in to the zone chat, there were some rumors (or perhaps more like concerns) that Cryptic, because of slow/small updates, might shut down CO.
Is there anything we can/will do if such an event were to occur? Y'know, some sort of joined effort through shared pain or something? I don't have any huge attachment to it, I don't think the players of CO deserve to see their game meet the same fate as ours.
I honestly don't think they will shut it down. The game saw a large influx of players and new subscribers after the CoH shut down. They also saw the outrage and what happened to NCSoft. Given the community appeal to CoH on their site and the attention the community manager has paid to the Cox channel in game, I just really don't see that happening. I think after Neverwinter is finished in the next few months, they will get their devs back and may even see some content development.
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I received this from a friend today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYBzs5P3eBs
After seeing it, we've made a strong decision to move forward with the push to gather assemble the current development team for our company's project. We will definitely be open to partnerships and collaborations, but the longer we wait, the longer people are homeless (so to speak). I was really moved hearing that one of my fellow veteran servicemen wasidentified as crying as thoughts of his separation from play sessions with him son entered his conversation. We'll be moving to launch the page within the next few weeks and have our Director of Marketing move forward with promotion and advertising.
A Skype conference has just began with the new development group soon to work on our new Super Hero MMORPG. We've planned most of the execution today, and are about to further direct the team. Very soon the structure will be in place and the plan will take action. I'll be sharing more information regarding our plan and actions here soon.
Thanks very much for your support. We won't disappoint, because this is much important than any one of us. We are quite aware of that.
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I have not felt someone tug at my heartstrings this hard since forever.
Please be kind and true.
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My main response to this is look carefully at what this community would deem a worthy successor and learn from the mistakes of other MMOs out there. Cater to everyone, all the way up. Meaning a player with limited time should be able to log in and do more than just craft something (*gag* Everquest.) Supers have the ability to face challenges head on or in a group at any stage in their development. You want a game that has Altaholics in mind. For me, I hit 50, I came up with a new concept and started over just to do the journey again, because I could. Also, the blocking mechanic of DCUO is much better than the twitch block of Champions, but it makes no sense to me. Sure, Supes blocks things, he can, but Bats gets out of the way. I'm all for new dynamic combat, but don't make it feel forced. I truly hate the champions block because you're just sitting there waiting for an opening in every single fight. Less comic book feel, more fighting game sim which is not want a lot of us want to play. There's more in the forums and since you played CoH I'm certain you know what hurdles to avoid. However, as someone that has tested a good number of MMOs the ones I saw fail are the ones where the Devs didn't listen or research what was needed to make a good MMO.
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Simple and to the point.
If you have the capabilities that you say you can marshal, and can unite the varied factions that are all striving towards the same goal, and can move the collected vision forward, I am nothing but enthusiastic for your efforts.
Champions, gave it 10 minues and deleted it, WoW lasted... maybe 5. Good for those who like those and go on. I have chosen to keep CoH in my heart, and pin my hopes on people who are much more talented and smarter than me, hoping that the fact that I have money to spend, and that I am waiting with wallet in hand, will make a new target for my affection and will be worthy of Another 8 Years.
I know that many feel that "my child", who I have nurtured from nothing, is brighter, smarter, and more loved than the next guys, but if this all comes together (by whatever means) we are all better for it if we achieve the goal so many are waiting to see.
All efforts need focus, but together? Farther. Faster. And the dream, Fufilled.
(I just wanna spend my money and go back to where we were, to start, and go forward from there)
Thanks.
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I play on CO, but it's like a hollow pale version of what we lost. I have every hope and believe in our community to get it done. I also believe we should focus on one game, but understand internal issues are tugging at the core groups. That said this is one Incarnate Task Force we must not fail at. A quick list off the top of my head of needs.
1.) An Open Roleplay city. Plenty of places for people to get together and hang out ranging from slums to High price clubs.
2.) Bases! Both personal and Supergourp customization bases. Did I mention bases?
3.) A massive Character customization.
I make it simple. Give us the City, Means of making our own content, and we handle the rest.
Quality over Quantity. City of Heroes had massive amounts of stuff to do, there is no way to replace it all at start. However what separated the fun missions from the content people skipped... Boomtown anyone...Is Quality. Make what you do FUN and Creative and we would do it over and over again.
As I said we have been talking about what we want in a Spiritual Successor to our beloved City of Heroes since the announcement of the closer. Take advantage of Titan Network, and I do hope you do combine forces with The Phoenix Project. Mostly because I have been working with them and signed a NDA. We have some good ideas I would love to see made real.
I don't really care what group makes a Successor be it one or All. I want to have our CITY!
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So had this merged with the Phoenix protect? So confused.
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No I been trying to push them to. At least they are talking.
The phoenix Project has lore and concept art already done. I have no idea (NDA not withstanding) what they done technical side with the CryEnigine.
Aviticus Gladius group has an Engine and Servers / tech system set up. As well as business side already set up. The question I have here is can their tech handle the desires of the community.
To me it would be good use of both Groups to work together. But this is just a personal thing for me.
With the split of Heroes and Villains/ and The Phoenix Project it's already confusing. I don't know if the Plan Z: Justice even took off. Adding another operation would muddy the waters even more. We need focus and solidarity.
There is no merging I have no say in either group. I WANT a Merging because I feel it the best for both groups, and best for the community as a whole.
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I was a City of Heroes player for 8 years with over 40+ level 50 toons. paid subscriber that whole time and never had any intention to STOP subscribing, and spent money in Paragon Market regularly.
I have been eyeing The Phoenix Project from day one as what I was interested in. The MINUTE something becomes available to play I will contact every RL friend I have that played the game and about 15-20 regular in game friends I played with over 8 years.
We lost a lot when CoH died. Some of us got married. Had children. Some our children were teens who were playing who became ADULTS that were playing. We had at least two that became couples and got married. We grieved when some lost family members. We supported one another when people lost jobs..
If developers only understood the COMMUNITY.. they would understand the gold mine it truly was..
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No I been trying to push them to. At least they are talking.
Yes, we are talking, and weighing the options.
The phoenix Project has lore and concept art already done. I have no idea (NDA not withstanding) what they done technical side with the CryEnigine.
Quite a bit, however testing against Unity, as it is possible we may be able to migrate w/o significant work loss.
Aviticus Gladius group has an Engine and Servers / tech system set up. As well as business side already set up. The question I have here is can their tech handle the desires of the community.
That is one of our questions as well. We also have the business side set up as well I'd note.
To me it would be good use of both Groups to work together. But this is just a personal thing for me.
With the split of Heroes and Villains/ and The Phoenix Project it's already confusing. I don't know if the Plan Z: Justice even took off. Adding another operation would muddy the waters even more. We need focus and solidarity.
There is no merging I have no say in either group. I WANT a Merging because I feel it the best for both groups, and best for the community as a whole.
We are talking. No promises either way, but the door for dialog is open.
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I know that some people are concerned about too many projects equaling nothing real being achieved.
I understand that aspect, but I have to admit that I am more of a "not putting all your eggs in one basket" kind of guy.
I have no personal experience in the field, but my hunch is that more games are developed than are actually released. I would rather have three or four separate groups trying than having just one. That way, if one or more fails, the others can learn from their attempts.
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@Lily, involving movement, camera position, skill usage, skill upgrades, and the likes. The story, lore, questing, and all other things content related is going to be developed by the community. Unless of course the community would like to see the gameplay modified. In that event, nothing will be duplicated. I'm under the impression that much like myself, other supporters don't want to play a completely different Super Hero MMORPG.
This sounds more like what I wanted Plan Z to be than either of the other projects are turning into. I like the idea of CoH's powers, enhancements, teaming, combat system, and versatile costume generation being transported into a new game world. I hope you don't get discouraged by the existence of the other projects. I see these projects as seeds from a tree: the more it produces, the more likely one of the seedlings is to survive and thrive.
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I'm more worried about loosing more friends because some go to one game, some go to another. Right now we are all unhappy with what's out there. Won't be that if more then one Plan Z operations are GOOD.
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Well...honestly, I'm a bit scared.
I'm scared we will have a new game. Then, the 12 pounds I've lost since the closure may return. The yard may again turn into a jungle. The only bright side will be me spending less money because I'll be gaming instead of being out and about town making useless impulse purchases.
A game that is addictive like CoH was...is a scary prospect. Playing a game for 6 hours a day during the week and 12-14 hours on the weekend isn't really much of a life. Stress free, perhaps. Fun, perhaps. But, when I think of all that time wasted...I think I could have actually gone to med-school (if I could have afforded it) with all that time I spent playing CoH. So, I'm going to hope whatever comes of all these efforts is casual friendly, because I'm sure going to try to only play on weekends.
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I intentionally played CoH from 5:30 to 6:15am and then from 9-11 pm daily and on the weekend I would get up at 7 and play to about 10 to do TFs and such. Occasionally I would play in the evening on weekends but rarely.
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@no hero, it weighs heavy on our team and myself, personally, as well. We have no intention of letting anyone down, nor will we. We are all quite aware of what we are involved with and what it means to people. Before my younger brother died from cancer complications, this was our favored game; City of Heroes represented a special time we spent gaming together. That is why it is very important that our product be a spiritual successor to the title, as opposed to a complete re-envisioning of the former product. Not saying that it will be a direct replica, but we'd love to rekindle the original feeling with compromising it.
@pewlagon, you're very right about the approach (in my honest opinion). This is why we will be working "WITH" the community to develop the game. Since I started developing Legends of Etherell, I have had a single principle that I operated under; Nobody knows what a gamer want more from a game than the gamers that play it. So, I believe that gamers working on games they will be playing lends to a higher rate of success than a developer building a game and shoving it in gamers' faces with no direction. You can't make someone play something they don't want to play, a game not being played loses profit, and a game with no profit will eventually fail. With that said, understand our most influential elements of game development has always been, and will always continue to be our community. I'm a developer, but in reality I'm nothing more than another member of this community. Make a note of that when you have time. If you ever feel that changes throughout the development of this title, feel free to put me in my place... You'll never find yourself having to, I can promise you that.
@Amph, your point is verily understood. We do understand that everyone would like to see all forces united, but we're also under the assumption that a majority of the community is unaware of the differences that separate the divide. Our team has a vision in which we work with the community to develop a derivative of the original City of Heroes franchise which may be viewed as a City of Heroes 2 to many. However, the other titles seem destined to innovate, which I personally don't view as a bad thing. Therefore, I believe each project, in the event that they all remain independent, will appeal to players of various markets. I wouldn't label our project as a "City of Heroes Clone", but more of a "City of Heroes Continuation". We don't look to copy, we look to continue to build upon elements of the former product which we feel has lots of merit.
@Lily Barclay, I feel that Downix has accurately answered your question. Lines of communication has been opened, and we have a channel on Skype where we have spoken regularly since first contact. As he said, we can't guarantee anyone that a merger will happen due to what I stated earlier in this reply. We currently have different ideologies at work and they may not coincide. I'm most certain that we will be releasing something playable real soon, and most likely before anyone else here. It will most likely be the deciding factor in who is the frontrunner, but also shed some light on how our product plays. This may introduce or open more lines of communications between the currently divided groups. Moreover, we have already began to move forward with pre-alpha development of our product, so time will tell exactly how people will feel about the project.
@Rotten Luck, understand that we're more than aware of your concerns. However, we don't feel that the divide is particular bad; though not particularly good either. I personally feel that it will give players something to choose from. If The Phoenix Project starts to garnish the larger audience, while the other projects fade into darkness, it points us in a given direction. If all products are gaining equal ground, it shows that the market is in favor of neither. I've spent a lot of time here in the titan forums doing research and I seem to have found a market for both something original and a recreation of CoH's former glory. As our project is all about the community, I think we have the proper guidance medium to insure that we deliver the proper gameplay elements to maneuver us in the right direction.
@HEATSTROKE, this is the emotional attachment that many of us have with the game. When you spoke of it being a gold mine, I thought of that "gold" as being all the valued time spent and not so much it's monetary value to NC Soft. Just 2 weeks ago, one of our supergroup leaders and I laughed until we couldn't stand talking about some of the great times we had; especially when we brought newbs from work into high level areas and struggled to survived; many times we ended up hauling ass out of hellified situations thanks to their outrageous actions haha. But those are the experiences that stuck with us, and can't be replaced by any others. I was also a subscription customer until the end, with no plans to deviate. So please know that we will always be working hard to keep the spirit of the original community and that experience alive with our project.
@downix, thanks for clearing the air about that. I was supposed to post an update here this morning, but I've been busy preparing the UI art for the project.
@Kaos Arcanna, that is a great philosophy to present. I fully agree with you on this, and I feel that's how it will eventually play out.
@Tiberian Fiend, Agreed. As I stated earlier, I also feel it helps for direction and information.
@ukaserex, Unfortunately, we are looking to continue the addictive nature of City of Heroes. Maybe we could programmer a setting that lets players initiate a timer that prevents them from logging in past a set daily, weekly, or monthly duration. What do you think about something like that?
@Ironwolf, I played about 2-3 hours Monday-Friday, and usually 6-7 hours on Saturdays and Sundays. Now that I think about it, that was quite a bit of time spent. Maybe that's why most of us can't let go haha.
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I'm also for a merger. We are a large and dedicated community, but not HUGE. Dividing us up is not the best Idea. I guess what I am saying is: Have both sides take "losses" on thing's they want. Come to a middle ground. Make a merger.
3 games + DCUO and CO? No bueno....
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Sounds to me like this is turning into what could be a Godsend for The Pheonix Projext. While more games in development sounds safer, we are a very limited group here. Limited by population, money, talent, drive, etc. I'm not downing our community at all, I'd stack us up against any other gaming community when it comes to quality, but we can get spread too thin.
I personally thought the first split was disastrous, fracture the community further with this Justice thing and now this and we will not have enough volunteers to keep any one project going.
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I honestly don't think they will shut it down. The game saw a large influx of players and new subscribers after the CoH shut down. They also saw the outrage and what happened to NCSoft. Given the community appeal to CoH on their site and the attention the community manager has paid to the Cox channel in game, I just really don't see that happening. I think after Neverwinter is finished in the next few months, they will get their devs back and may even see some content development.
Or, at the very least, they would give it a proper send-off. A true sunsetting, unlike what was done to COH and Paragon.
Good to see this development, makes the reincarnation of our City that much closer.
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Sounds to me like this is turning into what could be a Godsend for The Pheonix Projext. While more games in development sounds safer, we are a very limited group here. Limited by population, money, talent, drive, etc. I'm not downing our community at all, I'd stack us up against any other gaming community when it comes to quality, but we can get spread too thin.
I personally thought the first split was disastrous, fracture the community further with this Justice thing and now this and we will not have enough volunteers to keep any one project going.
I second this opinion.
I know that some people are concerned about too many projects equaling nothing real being achieved.
Too many projects will mean that nothing gets done. The question is how many is too many?
I understand that aspect, but I have to admit that I am more of a "not putting all your eggs in one basket" kind of guy.
I have no personal experience in the field, but my hunch is that more games are developed than are actually released. I would rather have three or four separate groups trying than having just one. That way, if one or more fails, the others can learn from their attempts.
Really reminds me of this quote from Mark Twain; "Behold, the fool saith, Put not all thine eggs in the one basket, -- which is but a manner of saying, Scatter your money and your attention, but the wise man saith, Put all your eggs in the one basket and -- watch that basket."
I'm not trying to imply that having more than one project is foolish; you brought up good and valid points about the benefits of having more than one. We just need to figure out how many "baskets" we can watch without getting too distracted.
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@ukaserex, Unfortunately, we are looking to continue the addictive nature of City of Heroes. Maybe we could programmer a setting that lets players initiate a timer that prevents them from logging in past a set daily, weekly, or monthly duration. What do you think about something like that?
I appreciate the thought. That's a responsible thing for a company to do, but in the end, we are all responsible for our own choices, no?
However, a parental control might go over well with folks with children. Mine are grown, so it'd be something I'd look past.
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I'm also for a merger. We are a large and dedicated community, but not HUGE. Dividing us up is not the best Idea. I guess what I am saying is: Have both sides take "losses" on thing's they want. Come to a middle ground. Make a merger.
3 games + DCUO and CO? No bueno....
First of all, ain't nobody here playing DC or Champions (at least, not by choice). Secondly, one of the Projects Z is most likely going to fail due to the personality of its leader. Third, the bottom-up approach of Mr. Gladius is the one that's most likely to succeed.
@Aviticus Gladius: I hope you start up some fora for your project soon, so that the community may discuss it. I also hope you come up with a better UI than CoH had. Text buttons are a bad idea and hard to read, especially at higher resolutions. The chat channel buttons were the worst.
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First of all, ain't nobody here playing DC or Champions (at least, not by choice).
Actually, there are plenty of people playing both DC and Champions, or one of the two. Please don't assume to speak for everyone.
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I have to come clean.
I tried CO and feel dirty doing so. It won't wash off.
Hopefully my confession will aid in purging the sin.
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There is nothing wrong with playing Champions or DC. I even toyed with the idea of restarting my WOW account.
Champions at least been made by Cryptic so deep down there echos of what we lost. It's not the same and from time to time I try things Paragon style and sign off shocked that it didn't work. Until Paragon returns, or a new City is built on it's memories. We just have to continue to struggle through these darkest nights.
With every sunset there is a Dawn. We just have to keep the torches burning till then.
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@Last replies, we understand the everyone's desire for the merger and the concerns of the community in regards to potential thinning. However, at the moment, we just want to start introducing things to the players. A lot of thought and effort will have to go into merging; this won't happen in a matter of weeks or months. Stop for a second and magine what would have happened had someone told the original designers of City of Heroes to simply conform to the "then" standard MMORPG requisite; at the time the market would flooded with fantasy/anime inspired MMOs. If they would have folded to the pressure, we would have never trader our souls for Heroism. Sometimes a compromise can be made, sometimes it cannot. We'll let the community help with the decisions once everyone has had an opportunity to see what we can do.
In other new, the site is going up tomorrow. I just finished adding the art and creating the logo. At the moment, we're looking for idea for sections/categories for the forum and reward ideas for donations; for reward ideas please accompany them with monetary values as well. If you have any ideas please feel free to share them here. Thanks in advance.
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Actually, there are plenty of people playing both DC and Champions, or one of the two. Please don't assume to speak for everyone.
Because they like them, or because they have nothing else to play?
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I for one, am not sure about the project merge. The more I read about the Phoenix Project, the less interested I am on it while I'm totally loving the idea of a game as close to CoH as possible.
The main concern for Aviticus' project would be the reverse engineering project, specially if a CoH community (or however you want to call it, just check that thread about it) server comes live together with development plans for the game in such server and by development plans, I of course mean something serious, the like of serious you can find on a community like this one.
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I don't mean to put down fellow CoH players struggling to heal our wounds in their own way, but frankly, my experience when it comes to any and all things creative - and a good game is very much an exercise in creativity and creation - is that those who only strive to imitate, can only achieve mediocrity, and will never compare to what they were imitating. That's why I prefer the Phoenix Project, because I think they recognize this. To take something as inspiration, as a foundation, is an entirely different matter, and the idea of a new game being developed by truly skilled and properly organized people who played and loved CoH and know why it was special and appreciate the many things it did differently and well is all I could ever ask of the world. If anything, I would consider that CoH's truest and most rightful legacy - that even after it is gone, all about, gamers and game developers remember, and learn, and emulate. Just finding out there is a professional studio full of people who admired CoH using it as a model to develop games in another genre entirely made my day, even without your pledge to help us cultivate a CoH successor.
NEVER strive merely to stay where you were: strive to go one better. That is absolutely essential. The Phoenix Project understands this. I get why many would want to just imitate CoH as closely as possible and get nervous at the idea of changing things, but I guarantee you that just trying to be 'as close as possible without violating IP' will flop. Because that sort of thing always does. If you try to make something without using anything of your own - if your only goal is to use the ideas and inspiration of somebody else - it's already over. Because that formula fundamentally lacks the most necessary ingredients for success.
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I second this opinion.
Too many projects will mean that nothing gets done. The question is how many is too many?
Really reminds me of this quote from Mark Twain; "Behold, the fool saith, Put not all thine eggs in the one basket, -- which is but a manner of saying, Scatter your money and your attention, but the wise man saith, Put all your eggs in the one basket and -- watch that basket."
I'm not trying to imply that having more than one project is foolish; you brought up good and valid points about the benefits of having more than one. We just need to figure out how many "baskets" we can watch without getting too distracted.
At this stage in the process I wouldn't be overly concerned if there were ten or more start up projects. We're still essentially at the vaporware stage. (And who knows? There might be major developers out there who are working on something to capture the spirit of COH right now that we haven't heard about yet.)
I could see it being an issue if we wind up with two or three games asking for community funding at the exact same time or if two or more games actually reach publication and go on sale, but right now we're not at either stage so I think the more people trying the more likely we are to actually see something CONCRETE arise from it.
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Because they like them, or because they have nothing else to play?
I have played both Champions and DC Online and enjoyed both of them a lot.
(Mostly been sticking to DC Online because I like the graphics more and I'm not getting flooded with lockboxes. :D) That being said, I fully intend to give Neverwinter a shot as it looks like my chance to play a Fantasy MMO where my Elf/Dwarf/Halfing won't look like EVERYONE ELSE'S Elf/Dwarf/Halfling ... :D
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At this stage in the process I wouldn't be overly concerned if there were ten or more start up projects. We're still essentially at the vaporware stage. (And who knows? There might be major developers out there who are working on something to capture the spirit of COH right now that we haven't heard about yet.)
I could see it being an issue if we wind up with two or three games asking for community funding at the exact same time or if two or more games actually reach publication and go on sale, but right now we're not at either stage so I think the more people trying the more likely we are to actually see something CONCRETE arise from it.
Well said, and I agree.
If the new game starts out in Hercules Park and we have to fight Heckions and Bonies I think we can pretty much expect failure. :D
And truthfully, having played other games, I hope whatever new game that arises from the various Phoenix Projects-- if one does-- takes advantage of a better game engine and comes up with
superior graphics 'cause the game WAS starting to show its age.
Beyond that, we can certainly have similar themes in the new game that would rock: a long standing bond of friendship or family between the leader of the hero and villain fractions, a catastrophic event of some kind that resulted in a new influx of heroes, a major new threat or return of an old threat (or both), that requires new heroes to step up their game ...
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Okay,
I've been keeping track of this discussion but haven't jumped in until now.
I had a big long post...but deleted it before pressing the Post button.
I will just say this. I believe it was rumored that ego had something to do with the Plan Z split (I do not know this and will not comment on it other than to say that it was one of the rumors...I purposely did not dig into this because I support both versions and like what I have read from both leads - even if I do believe that both projects are trying to hard to re-invent the wheel!)
It is my hope that Ego will not get in the way of moving forward with something that has the potential to advance the publication timetable by months, if not years.
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I have played both Champions and DC Online and enjoyed both of them a lot.
(Mostly been sticking to DC Online because I like the graphics more and I'm not getting flooded with lockboxes. :D) That being said, I fully intend to give Neverwinter a shot as it looks like my chance to play a Fantasy MMO where my Elf/Dwarf/Halfing won't look like EVERYONE ELSE'S Elf/Dwarf/Halfling ... :D
I'm playing DCUO myself (I gotta figure out the chat system....and I haven't teamed yet....I keep hoping to find another COH refugee to team with LOL)...and will be checking out Neverwinter :)
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I am also playing DCUO now, and honestly it's doing much better than I'd thought, though it's no replacement of course. I should really start hollering on the chatbox for other CoH players, they'll know what I"m looking for that the game can't give :D
But, let's not derail this thing, there are other threads for 'what to play now'. And the actual subject of this thread is so very encouraging.
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I, for one, welcome multiple projects. It means there will be more than one potential take on the next game. However, in the end, I do think only one can survive. It may even bring about a decline in at least CO, depending on how well it is received.
The notion of a spiritual successor is a good one, but a difficult one to effectively implement, because the game was so many things to so many of us. Nothing will replace it, but, if one of the efforts, or even a couple, can come close, we will have a place to go.
The only other real wild card I see is timing. If a really good one is finished six months or a year after a really close one, the better one may not be able to draw enough attention from the folks already deeply involved in the lesser one. realistically, I know that there is no way that the three (or however many we end up with) projects are going to collude to release at the same time. Everyone is impatient, whether it's the team who wants to get their game playable and played, or the community laying siege to the gates, desperate to get in.
I welcome all the projects. The community will decide which one (or ones) will succeed. Some of us will be disappointed. None of us can lose, since we already lost on December 1st.
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@The White Rager, in regards to this quote:
I get why many would want to just imitate CoH as closely as possible and get nervous at the idea of changing things, but I guarantee you that just trying to be 'as close as possible without violating IP' will flop. Because that sort of thing always does. If you try to make something without using anything of your own - if your only goal is to use the ideas and inspiration of somebody else - it's already over. Because that formula fundamentally lacks the most necessary ingredients for success.
I have to digress, as your idea of change is what almost led to the early demise of Champions Online. Prior to developing Legends of Etherell, I studied the MMO markets religiously for almost 4 years. Almost 7 months following its release, the plug was almost pulled on Champions Online do to the fact that City of Heroes was still outselling Champions Online by almost 122%; these figures are compared on based on a monthly/quarterly standing chart and in no way compared to prior earning of City of Heroes. So, essential the game released and even after 7 months it still trailed City of Heroes in monthly/quarterly earnings with a player based comparable to about 26% of the City of Heroes active player base. You could easily write it off by saying, "well it's because people wanted to remain dedicated to City of Heroes" or "people found something they were comfortable with and didn't want to deviate". Either way, you are still pointing to the fact that some element of the game was the retaining factor. Numbers don't lie, and neither does continuity. Please investigate the Call of Duty pandemic. I've played every single Call of Duty game since it's original release. However, since Modern Warfare, there has been realistically no change to any element of the game except the story elements; same engine, same visual fidelity, same sound quality, etc. Why has the franchise earned almost a quarter of a trillion dollars over the last 5 years, setting the record in "entertainment" sell including all movies, television shows, and the likes? It's obvious that it's what the game's players want, gross repetition. I simply came to this conclusion after spending time researching reviews of sequels that received lower ratings than it's predecessor. In just about every one of these reviews I found some statement relitively saying, "the reason I've rated this sequel lower than the original is that it doesn't feel like the original." Feel free to research that for yourself, but I'm sure you've experienced the same thing many times before. I look at it from this point of view: "If City of Heroes was still available now, I would be more than happy playing it just the way it was".
Aside from the personal monikers, the project will still be actively developed by its community. So I'm sure many improvement will be added and some deficiencies will be repaired.
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I look at it from this point of view: "If City of Heroes was still available now, I would be more than happy playing it just the way it was".
I have to agree with this statement here. I wasn't drawn to the individual parts that City got right; a lot of games get some things right, but that doesn't put any of them on par with City. It was the package as a whole that our game got right. Even what deficiencies it had weren't enough to drive people away. A ten year old engine running an eight year old game, standing up to not one but two different competitors... with newer code, and prettier graphics, and active gameplay that appeals to masses of twitch gamers, and the built-in popularity of a decades-old, world-renowned comic book franchise. You'd expect it to crumble within six months of those games being released. But no. In fact it didn't just hold its own, it remained the number one most popular superpowered mmo for years. There was a damn good reason that happened. City of Heroes, as it was, did it right.
I spent three and a half years in Paragon City, and I loved every day of it. That didn't happen because of what I wanted to change about it.
Aviticus, I'm glad to hear about this. An unexpected new possibility, closer than we thought it could be at this early point... very good news in my opinion. I'll be watching to see if there's any way I can help. :)
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NEVER strive merely to stay where you were: strive to go one better. That is absolutely essential. The Phoenix Project understands this. I get why many would want to just imitate CoH as closely as possible and get nervous at the idea of changing things, but I guarantee you that just trying to be 'as close as possible without violating IP' will flop. Because that sort of thing always does. If you try to make something without using anything of your own - if your only goal is to use the ideas and inspiration of somebody else - it's already over. Because that formula fundamentally lacks the most necessary ingredients for success.
That I'd definitely agree with IF (and that's unfortunately a huge IF) CoH was still around since, obviously, no point on replicating something that already exists. As it stands now, what I want is CoH back or something as close as possible. As for spiritual successors who understand success and stuff, I will definitely try them, of course I will, same way I tried DCUO and CO (although DCUO was not meant to be a CoH successor) I will try any CoH spiritual successor.-
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"If City of Heroes was still available now, I would be more than happy playing it just the way it was".
Same here. I left the game in issue 6 - regrettably. I came back in issue 17/18. They could have kept the game the exact same as issue 6 (though I would still be mad about the burn nerf), and I would have been fine. I did like the new changes, but they were hardly necessary for me.
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Okay,
I've been keeping track of this discussion but haven't jumped in until now.
I had a big long post...but deleted it before pressing the Post button.
I will just say this. I believe it was rumored that ego had something to do with the Plan Z split (I do not know this and will not comment on it other than to say that it was one of the rumors...I purposely did not dig into this because I support both versions and like what I have read from both leads - even if I do believe that both projects are trying to hard to re-invent the wheel!)
It is my hope that Ego will not get in the way of moving forward with something that has the potential to advance the publication timetable by months, if not years.
i think i remember that, i dont know if it was ego or just plain unwilling to work with others if they arent doing it "their" way
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So far this looks very promising. Your leadership seems reasonable, and your plan solid. Good luck!
After all many of the best games out there started out as a bunch of guys working in their spare time.
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Sounds to me like this is turning into what could be a Godsend for The Pheonix Projext. While more games in development sounds safer, we are a very limited group here. Limited by population, money, talent, drive, etc. I'm not downing our community at all, I'd stack us up against any other gaming community when it comes to quality, but we can get spread too thin.
I personally thought the first split was disastrous, fracture the community further with this Justice thing and now this and we will not have enough volunteers to keep any one project going.
Total agreement here, the first split truly made my heart sink. I think getting one game off the ground is an uphill battle. We dont have enough interested parties to be getting three or more games off the ground.
Too many cooks spoil the soup: trite but true.
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Champions started out with a bloodied nose due to massive launch day nerfs and like sto was rushed to launch thanks to atari. Both publisher and developer made mistakes. Very costly mistakes. Both games are still fun but likely could of been much better. But with pwe controlling them now they likely wont shut down anytime soon.
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Thanks to all the support and encouragement of this community, our spiritual successor to City of Heroes, "Valiance Online" now has a home:
http://valiance.shogn.net
Instead of waiting for suggestions for forum sections, I took the liberty of conjuring up a few myself. I'll be making a formal post in the proper section of these forums. Feel free to dive into the forums and start helping us build the game. We'll posting updates here real soon.
Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. We are off to a great start. Here's a list of implementation:
Currently Implemented
Server Authentication
Logging Into The Server
Server Authoritative Movement/Combat
Power Activation/Targeting
Basic Mob AI (Random Roaming)
Player And Mob Vitals
Limited Outfit Customization
Questing (Fetch Quests/Kill Specific Amount Of Mobs)
NPC Interaction
Stores Interaction
Bank Interaction
Resource Gathering
Blueprints Gathering
Item Crafting
Inventory/Account Storage
Planned Implementations
Fully Modeled City Zone
Pedestrian AI
Vehicle AI
Final NPCs
Final Mobs
Starter Power [Energy Power]
More Powers
Buffs
Debuff
More Customizations
"Dungeon" Instances
Grouping
Super Groups/Guilds
This is our projection for the basic demonstration we will be working towards; this reflects pre-alpha 1.0. The next version will be pre-alpha 2.0 which will have an updates list based on community demands. I'm going to get back to planning, but I'll be checking the site for input to document. Thanks as always for the outstanding support here.
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Aviticus Gladius, I would first like to take a moment to thank you for being a part of the COH community. I have read this forum since the day you began posting. To be honest I was incredibly touched by your compassion for the game and community.
There is not a single day that passes without me wanting nothing more than to log into City and run around with the friends that I have made there or work on one of the bases that I built, or create a new toon. But that just isn't possible. :( I have spent countless hours in Atlas Park and countless more on Perigrine Island, and I can honestly say that I never once got tired of any of it. City of Heroes was so much more than just another game to pass time with. I found that I could be suffering MAJOR stress and jump in to City and in just a short period of time the stress would dissipate leaving me a much nicer person.
I agree with you regarding the "feel" of City of Heroes. Since December, I have tried EQII, GWII, WOW, Rift, CO, DC universe, Assassins Creed, SWTOR and several I can't even remember the name of, but as of yet I can't find anything that can fill the huge void that I feel in game play. I want COH back. Plain and simple!
I have read all the pros and cons of a "clone" City, and I for one feel that if it plays like City and feels like City, then where do I sign up.
I am grateful that our community has set out to bring back our home, but it must feel like home. I am more than willing to do whatever I can to assist whomever it is that is taking lead on this/these projects, however, I feel that one divine effort would be far more successful then 3, 4 or possibly more all tying to reach the same goal and splitting the community.
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I just hope any "spiritual successor" has the one element I seriously need, before all others: the ability for me to run it.
I'm not a wealthy man, or even a moderately-well-off man. My budget is extremely limited. I can afford $15 a month to subscribe to a game, but I can't afford to spend thousands or even hundreds of dollars to buy a whole new computer to run it. That means that if a game can't run on my current setup (a Mac laptop running OS 10.6, with dual 2.13 processors, 2 GB of RAM, and 10 GB of free HD space), then it doesn't matter how good it is, I can't play it.
CoH, being an eight-year-old game with a Mac port, was therefore perfect. I had to turn the graphics settings down somewhat, but I could run it at full speed. So before anything else, that's what I absolutely need in a "spiritual successor".
I'm extremely excited about the prospects of a new game that will let me recreate my CoH characters (not to mention the dozens of characters still dancing around in my brain, demanding to be created), but if a new game won't run at full speed on my computer (and I don't mind having to lower the graphic settings to do so - running at full speed is more important to me than graphic detail), then I'm afraid I'll just have to wish you the best of luck and go play something else.
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One of the reasons I mentioned a merging with the Phoenix Project is they have a lot of good ideas. The problem with TPP is they have A LOT of good ideas. Is this bad no. However with all the new ideas I fear they are loosing sight of the "Spiritual Successor" aspect. Will I try what would come out of there effort. Hell yeah. However that evil mastermind on my shoulder is chanting DOOOOM. Maybe he's more of a Joker then a Mastermind.
So in that way I was hoping you can say "Is that really needed?" At the same time the Lore and stories already being set up in TPP will give your operations a boost. Mainly because like I said in my first post. We been working for months on something... anything the result is the Plan Z projects. Good ideas in all of them some deserve to be made.
Will I be happy if such doesn't happen. Sure it's like seeing people rebuild after a disaster. You can't help feel good seeing people working against depression and building something grand, even if you wonder at the designs.
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Valiance Online looks interesting. Although I share some discomfort at the thought of three separate projects under Plan Z: Heroes and Villains, the Phoenix Project, and now Valiance Online.
One question - when do you expect (all things going well) any of us can sit down and log in and actually play this game? 7 months? 7 years?
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.. possibly four actually .. not sure whether "Justice" is still a live project.
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I like the idea of options. Even the definition of "spiritual successor" varies from person to person. For some, it's team based contents and teaming aspect, for some it's the ease of solo, others it's MMs, to another it's the lore, to another, it's flying, while to some it might be "it must be the exact copy with same everything or else" they wont play it. Then some people are hoping for a sequel based game, or some might be looking for a mere homage to the original with good idea. Or a few migfht be looking for a new game that just happen to play like COX. With three or four different projects there is bound to be one that fits the definition of "spiritual Successor" without leaving any one particular group out if it was one game with one definition of successor.
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Do we have a Lore book?
Honestly to catch the attention of our former players and our future ones we need a story.
For me gameplay:
1. Super Sidekick
2. Travel immediately or very early
3. Variety of costumes from animals to aliens
4. being able to be a bit over-powered in comparison to other games - herding is not evil in fact it can be quite fun
5. ease of teaming and also adjustable difficulty both in team and solo.
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@praetor no hero reporting for funding and kill skkuls.
Woohoo! Fourth signed-up today.
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Seems I have trouble signing up on the Valiance Online forum. Filled out the stuff but no mail been sent. Wonder if I missed spelled my own Email.
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Please check your spam filter. I'll add a notification to remind users to check it. I'll be back to target specific questions soon. I'm currently planning a meeting with the Valiance Team to get some projections for the community.
@Nightwatch, we're looking to release the first pre-alpha/playtest in about 2 months or less. Keep in mind this will be the very basic shell of the game; primarily something for the community to build upon.
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Checked spam and recently deleted just in-case I deleted it. Don't see anything. Going to try again using Explorer instead of my Google Chrome.
Well I'm in the system because I'm getting the message my E-Mail is in use. Is there away you can send the Mail again?
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Joined and thanks!
Now I have 2 places to talk about the game I miss and both are trying to move forward!
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@Rotten Luck, check your pm on here.
@Ironwolf, thanks for your support. I can't wait to see what ideas and suggestions you bring to the title.
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In looking at the Silver Helm website, www.shogn.net (http://www.shogn.net), I'm seeing a couple of other games listed. I am curious where one would find those games or if they've been released - I'd like to take a look at them and see some of the history of Silver Helm's work. Do you think you could point me at the direct websites for those games, since they don't seem to be linked directly from your home site?
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I'm also interested in seeing some of these other works. Would also help spur support for Plan Z: Valiance.
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Thanks to all the support and encouragement of this community, our spiritual successor to City of Heroes, "Valiance Online" now has a home:
http://valiance.shogn.net
Looks good. Will be keeping an eye on things, and good luck!
I have one minor suggestion for the web page, though- where it says "Welcome to Valiance Online, the Spiritual Successor to City of Heroes", perhaps make it "a Spiritual Successor"? I know that sounds picky, but it might help with the 'we're all rooting for each other' mindset that I hope most of us are agreeing to.
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Fans and friends, one and all, my biggest recommendation would be this:
Whichever projects (here or otherwise) you choose to support, one or all, fully research the group you're funding and for your own safety use known funding companies with consumer protection.
One of the reasons crowdfunding options like Indiegogo and Kickstarter are so popular and successful is that they introduce an intermediary that is trusted and accountable to the funding process, that protects both the donors and the project.
Just a public service announcement.
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@SithRose, SHOGN was launched in the last quarter of last year as an effort to bring together like-minded MMO developers, we recently redeveloped the site from the ground up with new security implementation and a new visual design. We are currently in the process of reformatting the game sites to utilize the new architecture and to reflect the new visual design. Here is a link to the sites and some media:
Project Gorgon:
Site:
http://gorgon.shogn.net
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JF4F5Qpk7TQ#!
Legends of Etherell:
Site:
http://loe.shogn.net
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/LegendsofEtherell
Elite Units: Agendas:
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/EliteUnitsAgendas
Game Build:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39132392/Builds/eua_pre-alpha%20v.259.rar [Multiplayer Enabled]
Frontiers:
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl40xEtHz
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6aMYj1WcDg
The SHOGN site will be completed by the end of this month. Expect to see all sites and hyperlinks operation then. Also keep in mind that all projects under SHOGN are being developed by individual teams, and not a single team being spread thin. I simply work as the Lead Producer of Valiance Online, handling whatever I can in the programming department and 2D art department. Primarily, I'll be working to see that the project is well organized, that it retains structure, and that it remains a development property of its community. Legends of Etherell is the title that my internal team is primarily responsible to publish. However, you can rest assured that the current team behind Valiance Online, while still a relatively small team, is dedicated to working with the community to product a most fitting super hero MMORPG.
@Rotten Luck, never lose hope!
@epawtows, Well said. I'll make changes to that when I finish this reply. Shameful how a single small word can be the deciding factor in how a statement is received. It was definitely not my intention to sound as if the spot was only reserved for Valiance. Furthermore, thanks for the well wishes.
@tenaveran, In regards to this topic I must digress. Giving money to us either through Kickstarter or through our site honestly doesn't differ. Establishments like Kickstarter, Indie Gogo, and FundMe all create a sense of false security that deflects the contributor's focus from the true nature of what they should be concerned about. I believe that everyone that donates to any product, no matter what it is or where they donate, should acknowledge the fact that with no legally binding/enforceable contract, they are powerless to the results of their contribution. I've invested in 3 Kickstarter project over the last 2 years and have seen no progress being made; each of them earned well over 200,000 usd. What's worse is I have 2 friends whose MMORPG projects have both were successful on Kickstarter last year; one earned 50,000 usd and the other earned 200,000 usd on Kickstarter and Paypal combined. For reasons related to business professionalism I won't state which titles they were, but I'm a good friend of both of their development leaders. They both have spoken to me about legal woes and how so much of their funding became oblivious after funds had been procured. One told me he'd be stepping away from the project with no definite idea of when he'd be returning if at all, and just yesterday I spoke with my other friend and he said he strongly feels the game will shut down in the coming months due to the loss of interest by the fans because of their inability to settle on an engine. Something they both failed to realize, as I'm sure a lot of people do, is that the majority of that funding is owed as taxable company income. If you don't have a company you get hit with more taxes. Just getting your company establish costs a lot of money, because you then have to handle the financial responsibility along with the concerns and demands of your team now that they see what appears to be potential funding. This is something we've planned for the longest, and are now executing with investors for our other teams. I don't feel it makes us any more of a risk or any less of a risk. I personally feel the entire idea is a massive risk, but the majority of things we do in life are enormous risks. We hop into huge death machines everyday and blaze down highways or city streets to gain income for our families in hopes of securing a better future for them or ourselves; we do this all to gain something not knowing what the outcome of the risk could be. The Valiance Team expects to have a pre-alpha released soon with the funding campaign launching both on our site and on Kickstarter. Nothing will take place until well after proof of development has been displayed. Either way, the risk still remains, but in time we will prove the dedication and genuine nature of our business and its development partners. If you do plan to contribute financially, please take the time to observer our team and the progress it makes on the product prior to your investment.
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Actually, although you are correct in that taking part in a Kickstarter does not guarantee that the project itself will be completed, there *is* both a guarantee of safety in the transaction itself (as the transaction is handled by Amazon or Kickstarter UK) and a guarantee that the creator is legally obligated to follow through on their promises (i.e. perks, rewards, etc).
See the following:
http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#IsACreaLegaObliToFulfThePromOfTheiProj
That is what I am referring to. Obviously some Kickstarter projects don't get off the ground, but involving a third party crowd-funding source *does* provide security to the transaction and a guarantee that if the project completes, promises will be fulfilled.
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I'm curious if any of the titles above are actually playable or had successful fund raising goals?
Is there any tech demo's of what your platform is capable of doing?
Also, from some of the video's of some of these projects it looks like a lot of the ARt is pre packaged art assets purchased from the Unity store, do you have a dedicated Art Department?
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@tenaveran, Someone actually showed me that a few weeks ago in regards to a game they had invested in and asked if I knew of legal actions that could be taken against the organization. One thing that Kickstarter does is offset the responsibility on the investor and the organization. Keep this in mind, an organization can go ghost just as easily as they appeared. When you file your Kickstarter, they retain whatever information you share with them; this information could have easily been faked including bank accounts. I have a friend who has a co-worker living illegally in the U.S. and has a job and a bank account under an alias name. An individual like this could completely separate from your Paypal, close it and shut down their bank account; becoming nearly untraceable. Many financial establishments aren't even obligated to share your personal information without a federal subpoena from specific law enforcement agencies. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act even protects individuals personal information against some lesser law enforcement agencies. Usually a class action lawsuit is required to even put the wheels into motions in cases such as these. Here you can find information on one of the first class action lawsuits planned against an organization base on the failure to deliver on Kickstarter rewards: [http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4912712]. Kickstarter doesn't share any of company's personal information with individual contributors and leaves them to handle their own legal actions against the organization. For company's like mine that is legally registered (and trust me most on Kickstarter aren't), where we do use our real names during introductions, it is easy to locate and prosecute us for violation of terms of services. Here is an excerpt from the Kickstarter site:
Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?
No. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds as transactions are between backers and creators, and creators receive all funds (after fees) soon after their campaign ends. Creators have the ability to refund backers through Amazon Payments (for US projects) and Kickstarter (for UK projects).
As you can see there, they make it your responsibility. Thankfully our team has a great legal team; my sister being an attorney of 24 years having worked for IBM, HP and our Lead Writers wife who is a member of Square Enix's legal team. My sister is also a 4 time business owner with a long history of business management. So, we're more than a "couple of people" trying to make a game. We're a dedicated business with a more than capable team of developers with the majority having working on published titles for other commercial companies; our senior programmers worked on Everquest, Asheron's Call, Dungeons & Dragons Online -- Our Art Director has worked as a contract artist for Dark Horse Comics -- both our Lead and Assistant Lead Writers are published one as a journalist currently working on a commercial novel and the other having released 2 commercial novels -- 2 of our artist have worked commercially one having worked on Far Cry 2 and the other worked as an animator on Star Wars: The Old Republic. Given the fact that we are a small independent company, I think that says a lot about us. Regardless of opinion, you must still rest your trust in the developer. I personally feel a risk is a risk, and anyone taking a risk should understand the gravity of the risk. Sorry if I derailed for a bit, but I stand firmly behind the defense of my company as we've been tested many times, we held our ground, and has cost us greatly.
@agentq, All of the titles are playable listed are playable at the moment. Legends of Etherell has recently taken its servers down as we are incorporating the new server tech, and we're in the process of merging the client-side code and adding our existing coding to the master build. To see our technology, just visit the Project Gorgon video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JF4F5Qpk7TQ#!). Keep in mind these visuals doesn't reflect the current visuals of their project and it doesn't even come close to the graphics found in Legends of Etherell as they target 2 different markets. Project Gorgon, though it will have a standalone client feature, has been developed to operate smoothly in a browser using Unity's browser capabilities. Legends of Etherell has been designed to be on part with other current MMORPG titles like Bless Online and Archeage. All projects are planned for Windows, Mac, and Linux as well. Project Gorgon has an potential investor that has shown interest in overseeing the publication of the game to mobile devices, but that is being managed by Gorgon's internal team. Regarding art, Project Gorgon is the only title with a video that contains art from the asset store. Frontiers has all original art, but other titles have images which contain purchased art. All teams aside from the team behind Project Gorgon and Frontier (which is a single member only project) has dedicated art divisions. Most companies have art teams comprised of 20-30 full-time paid employees. We, however, have about 4-7 artist (currently unpaid) on most projects, with about half able to work full-time hours. So we have to supplement for the lack of manpower.
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So none of those titles i can download and play? And none of those had successful fund raising goals? And you don't have a tech demo of what your infrastructure can do?
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For company's like mine that is legally registered (and trust me most on Kickstarter aren't), where we do use our real names during introductions, it is easy to locate and prosecute us for violation of terms of services.
It sounds like you're making the presumption or the implication that the companies in Plan Z are not legally registered and thus cannot be held accountable by donors. I know that at least one of them is. If that is true then wouldn't the argument you're making here be moot?
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@agentq, if you looked at the video links they do show playable titles and technical demonstrations; I'm completely oblivious to what you're asking as everything you are asking about is visible in a single video. Also, look closer at the Elite Units section of that post and you will see a fully playable build of the game which is fully multiplayer functional -- it is also an early pre-alpha build. The other games aren't release publicly, but that doesn't define playability. Both Project Gorgon and Legends of Etherell has had public pre-alpha tests during their Kickstarter. Project Gorgon has had quite a few more public pre-alpha tests than Legends of Etherell. Our last pre-alpha test for Legends of Etherell was about 7 months ago and led to a lot of changes in the architecture, the team, and the overall design. Currently both Legends of Etherell and Project Gorgon have went to Kickstarter for funding and been unsuccessful, but so has various titles that have went on to be quite successful following unsuccessful Kickstarter campaigns. A lot of the feedback we got during both Kickstarter campaigns was that there wasn't more available to do, or the art wasn't on the level of major MMORPGs currently on the market. What I personally believe a lot of people weren't unaware of, regardless of my efforts to inform them, is that commercial MMORPGs often have budgets around 10-40 million dollars. To expect a small independent development company to be able to create something equivalent to 10% of games of that magnitude is accomplishing. Having come from companies developing MMORPGs we weren't to shocked about the results of our Kickstarters or the concerns of the contributors.
@tenaveran, I wasn't referring to any of the other CoH successors actually, I directly spoke out about people/products that I am personally aware of. These are individuals I know that have led successful campaigns on Kickstarter and have talked about departure. I don't speak on speculation, because I feel that's highly unprofessional amongst many other reasons. From speaking to Downix, I can definitely say their company is extremely organized and they do have a solid business foundation. There is no doubting that, and it's something I commended them on. A lot of independent game developers are just groups of ambitious individuals with no real sense of direction, no legal interests, or no guidance. I know because when I started on Legends of Etherell, that's how our group was. Our first publisher pushed us into the realm of legalities, requiring that we brought together our resources and legal experts to establish a legal business. So in direct response to your statement, "I was in no way referring to any company, group, or individuals within these forums; nor was I referring to any like-entity or entities that I'm not fully aware of." Another thing I believe is that a company can and should be held accountable for their actions regardless of donations or third-party investments.
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@Aviticus Gladius, not to split hairs, but the video you posted, which i've watched doesn't tell me anything about the state of the game. For instance that entire play through could be done entirely by the client with out connecting to a server, there was no login, there was no character creator, there was no NPC's or AI, or AI Pathing, or combat, or crafting. There was nothing showing anything other then a guy wondering around a map. Not to say it's not talking to a server, or there wasn't a character creator/login etc but it's pretty lacking. Obviously the video is just wanting to show the world off, which is fine, but that isn't really a Tech demo. I'm more interested in what the infrastructure can handle. Maybe some kind of video from some of these pre-alpha tests that you speak of, which might show a multiple number of players in the same area interacting. That would be a step in the right direction.
The reason for my asking is you're showing a lot of anecdotal evidence, not to say none of these titles won't be successful, but clearly there's been some short comings. The thing i'm interested in, what was the reasons for those short comings, is it because each of these projects are on their own so to speak, and it's due to their team, or lack there of, and if so what makes you involved with them? When you came into this thread, you quite quickly took on the role of random savior, popping in to save the day. To do so you make broad generalizations about both projects going on, even though you wouldn't have a way of knowing any of those details from 'perusing' their forums as you said. It's also a bit strange that if you're so tied into indie developers, a huge fan of CoH, and aware of massively and other game websites, why you never heard of either Heroes & Villains or MWM before this thread seems strange to me as both have received a fair amount of press.
Now you're creating a third title, which on one hand could possibly give the community a good number of choices of which project best reflects their idea of what a CoH successor is, but it also has the unfortunate effect of dividing the community up even more so. So my concern becomes more of if you really believe you're doing this for the "community" or you doing it because there's a big community and a lot of PR around CoH and the work to make a successor, and if you're just trying to take advantage of that so that you can have a title in your stall of 'meh' titles that is actually successful so that you can have a better chance at licensing your tools to other indie developers.
Honestly i don't know, but you're enough of a salesman, and not a great one i might add to really give me pause and make me concerned.
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@agentq, I've worked in the commercial and indie game industry for a long time. A technical demonstration is in no way bound by some moniker stating, "All features must be present in the demo." Have you ever seen Valve's tech demos or CryTek's tech demos? Most of them only show graphical capabilities; most show environments and shaders with no gameplay elements at all. Here is a bit of proof to demolish your "very personal" definition of "tech demo":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG29MX1DKhY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTC2T_kBYCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaSwK5AjRKg
Most of these engines flagship titles have multiplayer or come with multiplayer support out of the box. However, it's not shown in any of these videos, nor is logging in and creating an account. Tech refers to "technical", which could realistically cover anything from advanced shader rendering to something as small as a block moving across a 2D plane. We are currently putting together start to finish gameplay videos of both Project Gorgon and Legends of Etherell, but those aren't at a point where we are ready to show to the public. Both games are undergoing visual upgrades and/or programmatic changes. And in regards to shortcomings, every game, company, and individual experiences shortcomings of some nature; shortcomings don't define the value or potential of a product profitability or sentimental worth haha (such a primitive thought). I helped fund Wildman on Kickstarter, a game developed by Gas Powered Games; a company that made 2 of the games that inspired the leveling/progress system in my game [Dungeon Siege I/Dungeon Siege II]. It was unsuccessful in its funding efforts after the plug was pulled today. Do you really think that makes their company or the product worthless? It's pretty sad that people have started to feel that a company's success or value are dependent on the results of a crowd funding platform.
You appear to be missing a massive majority of what I post or you're trying too hard at your failed attempts to compromise the validity of my posts. Asking if any of the games were playable, when a link to a playable version of the title was included with the text "Game Build" annotated right above it. And never did I say anything about "being aware of massively". I said I spent a lot of time in the MMORPG.com forums; those are two completely different websites. There are thousands of MMORPG sites that I'm "unaware" of and that happened to have been one of them until I just looked it up. I don't even visit MMORPG.com religiously, just a lot more than the average gamer. Neither title is getting massive press either you're grossly exaggerating; I talked to the 24 other members my super group today and only one said, "I've heard of some Phoenix Project that is set to be a successor to CoH". The other 23 members were completely unaware of either title and they spend a lot of time playing DCUO and CO. You'd think someone would have mentioned it with all the discussions going on regarding CoH being taken down. But, somehow only one person out of a group of 26 was aware of these rather popular project... until I said something??? That shows that they aren't getting enough press, not that there getting a lot!
Lastly, though I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion, I also feel that there is a difference between voicing your opinion and aimlessly attempting to thwart someone's efforts. You represent less that .0001% of the CoH community scattered across the internet. I have no personal stake in this matter aside from insuring the continuity of a game I love. Our company also retains no earnings from third-party products nor do we wish to. Feel free to contact the executive members of the Phoenix Project, and they will tell you the only thing our company asks for is 20% of the final revenue share and that is all contractually obligated covering future server fees and website development costs; essentially it all goes back to the network. Whatever isn't required to prolong the forward continuity of their products are returned to the project leaders to handle it however they see fit. With Legends of Etherell, I chose to divide it into equal shares and give it to members of the development team as bonuses. We don't ask for any of their crowd funding assets either, that is all the responsibility of the company's lead executive or the project's leader.
Our company doesn't operate like most. We are genuine individuals, with a heavy emphasis on our communities, because we founded our company due to the fact that each of us were tired of being that "1 person" in the community that corporations could care less about. Our "vigiliance" is not wavered by any of your comments, so we continue our forward progress as we always have. I'm also glad to not be a good "good salesman", I'd have to be a salesman man first. You're obviously no good anything you attempt to do either, so please bring something valuable to the threat with some type of credibility or just don't bring anything.
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Allow me to split the knot of wheter or not Aviticus Gladius is a veteran CoHer or not by speaking in the language we're all most familiar:
Aviticus, which nerf did you hate the most, and why?
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I also have my doubts about your group Aviticus. I'm giving you a fair shot but won't be putting any funding to any projects until I see some demos. The other two projects have been posting concept art and other details about their operations.
Now not that I am saying I doubt your word I wouldn't have signed up to your forum if I did have such doubts. But as I said you are coming into the game a few months late. Being the late starter not only do you have to produce something but also have to catch up. This is why I said working with one of the other projects might be best. They already have the community support, lore, and basics. Your coming into this after the gloom has set in and we are now in a slow simmer.
The community hasn't given up, but now we know it's a wait and see game. In this condition we are being more careful before jumping off tall buildings.
Lets look at it this way. We are your investors, we will donate to the Plan Z that we believe in. We will offer Lore Ideas and Characters. However Now with 3 maybe 4 Plan Z programs that investing power running dry. Alright you told us your Company background and such. But what is your vision.
Yes, yes a spiritual successor to City of heroes. Just like the other Plan Z goals. Work with the Community... again all the Plan Z projects are community driven. We see that those words mean a lot in different ways to others. So what does it mean to you. As the spear head to Plan Z: Valiance what would be produced would be influenced by You. So in order to help you out here are some questions.
1.) What do you see as needed in a Spiritual Successor to City or Heroes?
2.) What do you feel needs to be changed to bring a Superhero MMO into the modern gaming level?
3.) What type of environmental are you aiming for? This is a big one for CoH, CO, and DC all have different feels some are more realistic others cartoon like quality.
4.) Will your aim be more Mission, gameplay focus or Roleplay focused?
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After having joined Valiance forums, I've also have seen a few discouraging signs here and there that seem dubious, however, if Valiance turns out to be a valid substitute for CoH, I'll welcome it wholeheartedly. Same goes for any other Plan Z projects.-
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Yes, after the initial blush, it appears that this "studio" has never published a game.
If I am incorrect please point me to where it can be purchased. Please also let us know who the other devs are? Do you have a list of who would be assigned to this game?
This looks like a possible money grab at a group who are desperately seeking a lifeline. I can tell you if this is what you are doing - you made a rather large mistake.
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With regard to the various discussions of what does and does not constitute a "spiritual successor" to CoH, and how closely any of these projects aspire to be one, I'd like to say this:
A "spiritual successor" would by default feel like CoH across a wide range of playing styles... similar (if not identical) mechanics, control schemes, keyboard layouts, powers, effects, mob behavior, and so on. The main change would be to the IP: game title, city zones, iconic heroes, villains/villain groups, and so on. (Not to mention any specific CoH gameplay features NCSoft might have actually patented.)
But in my opinion, just because a "Plan Z" game plays and feels like a "spiritual successor" by default does not in any way mean it cannot expand upon the superhero MMO concept. Note the words "by default"... out-of-the-box (or modem) gameplay would closely emulate CoH, but there can be all kinds of "optional" expansions upon the core gameplay for those who want something more. "Plan Z" developers finally have a chance to throw off the shackles of CoH's limitations and create a game with incredible breadth and depth.
For example, CoH was limited to the "archetype"/"power-set" model. Yes, you could customize your builds to some degree by choosing among several powersets and power pools, and which powers within a set/pool you took, but the game still hamstrung you into needing to choose (and, further, you couldn't just take the powers you wanted right away within a set/pool, you had to take certain lower-level powers first). Which is why I'd want any "Plan Z" game to incorporate a true free-form character build capability, alongside whatever archetypes and powersets make it into the game. And that free-form feature ought to be flexible enough to handle ANY player's "dream build", without unnecessary restrictions.
Another example: CoH gave us supergroup/villaingroup bases, with some pretty good variety in base objects and flexibility in how to place/combine them, but it was rather difficult to work with at times and took a lot of practice to get right (not to mention, having to use base items for purposes they were never intended for in order to achieve certain "looks", like multiple floors). "Plan Z" could limit itself to that, sure, but why? Why not add individual player bases/hideouts/lairs, like Champions, only with better customization? And make the base editing system much easier to work with, like DCUO? And incorporate options to allow placement of raised floors, interior walls, false ceilings, and multiple levels without jumping through hoops?
I guess that, in my mind, there's no reason why a "Plan Z" game can't be both a "spiritual successor to CoH" AND something much greater.
Mind you, the initial game release probably OUGHT to mimic CoH closely, at least gameplay-wise, for the sake of speeding development time (we want our City back NAO!!!). But the devs ought to put in enough hooks and extensions to allow for easy expansion of gameplay in the near-future, along with the free-form character builds and easier-to-use base editor as mentioned above (they're pretty much a "must-have" in this day and age).
Some other thoughts about what I'd like in a CoH successor, "spiritual" or otherwise (note that a lot of these are related to roleplaying, since that's what I miss the most about CoH):
- Powers and combat that makes me feel "heroic" (or villainous) from the get-go. It may mean making some powers a bit over-powered, but I at least want to at least feel like I can lay waste to all enemies that cross my path.
- Optional enhancements to powers, obtained through item drops, mission rewards, and crafting, so we can fiddle with our powers' effectiveness. (But please, give them meaningful names. In CoH I always found it very hard to remember which enhancements affected which attributes; the names and icons were no help, and the color-coding often hard to distinguish. At the very least, "Plan Z"'s enhancements ought to state their effect alongside their name at all points in the UI.)
- The ability to play both heroes and villains, as well as morally-ambiguous characters. However, this needs a better system than CoH's "Hero/Villain/Rogue/Vigilante" setup. (I'd like a greater range of steps between "hero" and "villain", for one thing, as well as missions designed for the intermediaries. Which missions are available to you should depend on how close to one extreme or the other you are.) And all of it should take place in the SAME zones no matter what the character's alignment. No more segregating the villains into a separate ghetto!
- Incredible variety of animated emotes. At least as many as CoH had, if not even more. And most should be available to all players, not locked behind the paywalls of a cash shop.
- Word balloons for both general chat and custom /emote text, along with select other channels. In Champions I'm finding it incredibly difficult to follow conversations, or to keep track of who says what, as only "local" text appears in balloons. I keep having to watch the chat log for speech made using /emote text. (One further improvement: a slider that lets us set how nearby other characters have to be before their local/emote speech even appears in either word balloons OR the chat log. Or maybe just "fade out" the word balloons for more distant conversations. This would make it a LOT easier to follow a private conversation without having to "hear" stuff being said a hundred feet away.)
- Hotkey access to "battle cries" (or generalized text macros, if you will), for those characters who just have to shout out something before wading into battle. it would be nice to incorporate certain emotes into these hotkeys as well.
- Customizability! Body styles/sizes, costume part variety, costume coloration, sliders to tweak every body/face proportion, a variety of base facial/skin textures (I hate how "generic" the faces all look in Champions... we ought to have both multiple textures to choose from, like CoH, AND tweakable facial proportions like CO), selectable power effects and power colorizing, customizable travel powers, and on and on...
- Character models that are more well-proportioned, idealized, and less comical than Champions.
- For the love of God, "walk" and "run" animations that don't look goofy. (All animations, really, but especially walk and run.) CoH nailed this, Champions fails!
And that's just off the top of my head...
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Yeah.
Well proportioned but realistic. Meaning ability to create average joe sizes. Seems that games have something against fat people although there are a few pudgy heroes and villians hanging around. And of course fingers. The mitten look is soooo outdated.
Also I did like the mission and story arc separation in COH although I wish there was more of an indicator of which one was storyarc and which one useless mission. Although having a bunch of fluff missions in storyarcs is an old COH standby, (not so much villians or rogues though), yeah tone down the fluff useless missions.
A bit more end in the early levels would be nice.
Less dependence of luck, (hit rolls, dodge, drops, etc.) It seemed the luckier a player is the more powerful they are able to become. But that is small beans. More importantly though, I dont think everything should be monopolized by the player economy like in many games, nor majority of it. Everything should be able to bought one way or another from an NPC instead of having to either wait for the farmers to fill up the market or hoping to get lucky yourself for a specific gear. Although I do like the non-hit roll or worrying about acc system in CO but dont think it would work in COX successor as SR was one of the stand-bys that people seemed to liked and dont think it would be good to get rid of it even though I hate the hit roll system. If COX wasa movie it would be a boring one watching a hero and villian whiffing away at each other.
Speaking of farmers. COX seemed split personality on this subject, farmers. On one hand it seemed to be frowned upon on the other they kept getting blatant gift drops that they should have known was dead easy to exploit by farmers. I hope the successor either leave the farmers be or do something about it instead of acting schizo about farmers, choose once and for all.
And dont forget about people that may not be social ninja gurus. Aka, a successor shouldnt be all team based nor should teaming have that much more incentive especially in the way of xp than soloing. I think teaming can be incentive by gear. Bigger the mobs better the gear drops. Not merely just more. Thus bigger the team bigger the drops and all teammates get drops. I dont think any game do that but would be nice and good incentive for teaming instead of the same person getting the purples over and over while the same person get Pacing of the Turtle each time. Kind of turn a person off from even bothering teaming. Especially with "Oh it's easy to make money off the market!" Yeah when ya get purple drops like it's nothing while on the same team and doing the same thing keep getting crappy drops it's not so easy.
And a little bit of PVP too. Preferable like prior to i-13, but at the same time though, think the assigned mods should not be laxed with unruly behavior as they was in COX, which seemed to be PVP downfall in the end and loss of many people. And a bad taste of PVP in many people's mouth. Then the i13 changes was just a mercy kill to pvp when all it took wasa little more moderation instead of seemingly encouraging griefing behavior. Yes, even within COX community I seen some people get the business from other players that make WoW players look like saints and not a single person doing a anything about it. If there is not enough mod man power or dont care about griefers and other people who make it a point to run any newe player away from pvp, then there is no point in implementing it, also it should be in the beginning or really not at all. That way everyone is new but even as the game ages, it should welcome new players to try out pvp instead of pvp being known as the arm pit of society in the game.
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With regard to the various discussions of what does and does not constitute a "spiritual successor" to CoH, and how closely any of these projects aspire to be one, I'd like to say this:
A "spiritual successor" would by default feel like CoH across a wide range of playing styles... similar (if not identical) mechanics, control schemes, keyboard layouts, powers, effects, mob behavior, and so on. The main change would be to the IP: game title, city zones, iconic heroes, villains/villain groups, and so on. (Not to mention any specific CoH gameplay features NCSoft might have actually patented.)
But in my opinion, just because a "Plan Z" game plays and feels like a "spiritual successor" by default does not in any way mean it cannot expand upon the superhero MMO concept. Note the words "by default"... out-of-the-box (or modem) gameplay would closely emulate CoH, but there can be all kinds of "optional" expansions upon the core gameplay for those who want something more. "Plan Z" developers finally have a chance to throw off the shackles of CoH's limitations and create a game with incredible breadth and depth.
For example, CoH was limited to the "archetype"/"power-set" model. Yes, you could customize your builds to some degree by choosing among several powersets and power pools, and which powers within a set/pool you took, but the game still hamstrung you into needing to choose (and, further, you couldn't just take the powers you wanted right away within a set/pool, you had to take certain lower-level powers first). Which is why I'd want any "Plan Z" game to incorporate a true free-form character build capability, alongside whatever archetypes and powersets make it into the game. And that free-form feature ought to be flexible enough to handle ANY player's "dream build", without unnecessary restrictions.
So far, I don't think anyone has questioned the validity of what constitutes a CoH spiritual successor. I don't think the ability to expand upon the superhero MMO concept has been questioned either, however, I for one (and only speaking for myself of course) know that I've lost all interest in the Phoenix Project precisely because I've seen too much interest in the "freeform" concept.
I know I'm not going to touch any game that allows freeform concept Super Heroes even if every single person on Earth swears it's the true and only "CoH spiritual successor". As I said, I don't think the concept of spiritual succession has been questioned on either project. On my particular case, I'm looking for either CoH back or something close enough to my liking, if I just wanted a superhero MMO with an expanded concept, there are a couple out there and another one in the making and Project Z would be just other studios developing other MMOs.
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So far, I don't think anyone has questioned the validity of what constitutes a CoH spiritual successor. I don't think the ability to expand upon the superhero MMO concept has been questioned either, however, I for one (and only speaking for myself of course) know that I've lost all interest in the Phoenix Project precisely because I've seen too much interest in the "freeform" concept.
I know I'm not going to touch any game that allows freeform concept Super Heroes even if every single person on Earth swears it's the true and only "CoH spiritual successor". As I said, I don't think the concept of spiritual succession has been questioned on either project. On my particular case, I'm looking for either CoH back or something close enough to my liking, if I just wanted a superhero MMO with an expanded concept, there are a couple out there and another one in the making and Project Z would be just other studios developing other MMOs.
yeah, the definition of "COH spiritual successor" is hard to pin down, especially without the IP and the various definition of spiritual successor wand what people want in that game. Which why I think it's great to have more than one. But in the the end, each is just another studio developing another MMO, but hopefully finally a super hero MMO where the developers are able to or choose to take their time with development and nit just thowing half-baked fix it later oh wait cant fix it need people on the fanatasy game. God forbid a fantasy game is releases half finished as it's considered sub standard but for super hero MMO it's the standard? I hope between the four projects maybe five maybe three, one of them break that standard once and for all.
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Just a little digging a little below the surface here shows a major truth, competence and honesty deficit - which has been confirmed by talking to the Phoenix Project.
My advice is to avoid this.
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Well just like anything I'll check it out for myself and go from there. Not that I dont trust project phoniex people or the likes, thye may be trying to poke holes to kill competition early. Or thye might truely be concerned. While the little stuff even project phoenix have shown, it's still not concrete indicator of anymore towrads completition then the other freelance people that have come through here.
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Well just like anything I'll check it out for myself and go from there. Not that I dont trust project phoniex people or the likes, thye may be trying to poke holes to kill competition early. Or thye might truely be concerned. While the little stuff even project phoenix have shown, it's still not concrete indicator of anymore towrads completition then the other freelance people that have come through here.
True, at this stage all projects are equally valid, once they deliver a game, the players will decide which one is more valid and I personally don't care if whatever freelancer claims to have played CoH from the very day one of alpha testing or even he invented the whole game, all that matters to me is to have either CoH back or a valid substitute.
If by a community driven game they mean they want constructive feedback from the CoH gaming community (being CoH spiritual successors and all that) they can bet their firstborn that any such project will be drowned in constructive feedback (and probably the non constructive kind too but comes with the territory I guess) however, if by a community driven game they mean they want my money, they will surely have it in the form of payment when they deliver a playable and purcheasable game. This comes with an added benefit, see, they can keep having my money in the form of monthly fee and ingame store purchases for as long as their game keeps me interested.
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Just a little digging a little below the surface here shows a major truth, competence and honesty deficit - which has been confirmed by talking to the Phoenix Project.
My advice is to avoid this.
Well, I for one have never in my life given anybody more than $20 without first seeing proof that they're trustworthy. In this case, that means at a bare minimum he'd have to at some point provide a working demo client, playable by at least a select (known and trusted) few among this community. In my opinion giving a substantial amount of money to somebody is not even a consideration until that level of evidence is provided.
For that matter, the same goes for the two Plan Z projects as well. I do believe in the people working on them, in both cases. I trust you guys, and I can wait for that proof, but I will need to see it before anyone gets cash out of me. Faith and blind faith are not the same thing. This guy gets the same answer as anyone else who might ever ask me for money... prove you deserve it.
In the meantime, if he wants to start giving us something a little more concrete to examine than just pleasant words, well that would certainly make him look more credible than he does right now. Sweet talk only gets ya so far.
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For that matter, the same goes for the two Plan Z projects as well. I do believe in the people working on them, in both cases. I trust you guys, and I can wait for that proof, but I will need to see it before anyone gets cash out of me. Faith and blind faith are not the same thing. This guy gets the same answer as anyone else who might ever ask me for money... prove you deserve it.
The way HaV is set up, it techncially doesn't need crowdfunding to succeeed.
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For example, CoH was limited to the "archetype"/"power-set" model. Yes, you could customize your builds to some degree by choosing among several powersets and power pools, and which powers within a set/pool you took, but the game still hamstrung you into needing to choose (and, further, you couldn't just take the powers you wanted right away within a set/pool, you had to take certain lower-level powers first). Which is why I'd want any "Plan Z" game to incorporate a true free-form character build capability, alongside whatever archetypes and powersets make it into the game. And that free-form feature ought to be flexible enough to handle ANY player's "dream build", without unnecessary restrictions.
And, see, I liked the Archetype/Powerset limitations, because it gave my characters a theme. As I said in another topic around here somewhere, I had a fully freeform character on CO, and it just felt like a horrible mish-mash of conflicting concepts, because the individual powersets were so unbalanced that you had to dip into random things. My main Brute on CoH had two powersets that the majority of his key powers came from, one Epic powerset, and a few powers from Flight and Fighting. My attempt to recreate that Brute on CO required dipping into no fewer than six different frameworks just to recreate what that Brute had in his Primary and Secondary, and those powersets were all over the map (two were pure technology, one was pure magic, one involved harnessing my character's chi power; some used Str for damage while some used Ego, so my attack power wasn't that great, either). There was no cohesion at all, and no way to get cohesion, because the powers I wanted didn't exist in the Frameworks I wanted to focus on.
Maybe if Freeform were an option, it'd be okay, but I definitely want CoH's Archetype/Powerset system first and foremost.
Which brings me to a more general concern about any attempt at a "spiritual successor": everyone liked different things about CoH, and everyone wanted different things improved, and any "spiritual successor" is going to disappoint people - both for sticking too closely to CoH's style and for not sticking to it closely enough.
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A freeform power system goes against the comic book genre on a fundamental level - the majority of comic book characters are defined by their power sets, which extends to their names and their outfits.
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There are ups and down with set archtypes vs freeform. I prefer freeform and I think at one point the achytypes at one point were just powers assigned to the hero in comic lore and people chose to follow that example. I mean to me there isnt much difference between a character I made that is a brute and another one that is the same. Even in comic book lore, there are varities of power combinations that have not been explored by any MMO. Most including COx basically stick with the most famous basics. Tanks only mostly have melee besides a few rocks thrown (Superman/Hulk like) but take hell of a lot of damage. Fighters scrappers usually have little less hp but hit hard and can be hit hard (wolverine). Controllers/dominators(Jean Gray). Blasters (Gun toting comic charcter who name is on tip of tongue but cant think off now.) and so on. But for example, it would be hard in COX to create a toon like Cable or anything that have combination outside the usual. Say, just because someone use range powers doesnt mean they should be squish. Or cant kick to save their lives. in CO I feel that finally I am able to actually create a toon outside the usual superman/hulk/jean gray/other famous super hero clones with different clothes. I can create a gunslinger that is actually tough as nails. Or I can make a melee based toon that isnt afraid to shoot a person if needed like an actual police officer. Those options allow me to create a new toon and experiment with combinations that have not been thought of or not common. Some wont work well for everyone but in the end somewhere even in the early 30s someone decided that invul went with melee in a freeform type which eventually became archtype industry standard and Superman was born. I'm tired of making Superman clones that just wear a different outfit. I'm happy now with the freedom.
But with freedom also comes more chance to bolo depending on what aperson is looking for.
But if archtypes should be used, they definately should be extended beyond the usual mix. There are dozens of comic book characters in the X-man realm alone that dont have the usual archtype set up that COX offered. Basically comic book realm is freeform, especially in the likes of everything from The Blob, Green Lantern, Storm, Juggi., Cyclops, professor x, Magneto, toad, sabertooth, cable, bishop, iron man, war machine, thor, dr doom, the punisher (vig. who uses gun but by no means a squish), Blade and the thousands that I havent mentioned. Many here will fit the generic archetype that is offered in most MMOs and many do not. To me freeform is the freedom to truely something I can call mine. One of the reasons why when my toons in COX became lost during closing, I didnt even really care. They was merely all limited by the archtypes. In CO, I can call them truely my creations down to power choices. Sometime I actually pick two sets of powers that are opposite and clunky if the personality of the character I'm creating calls for it. Others prefer range but if opponet get close they smash them. Some use various forms of powers in defensive ways, some use darkness and love sucking the lifeforce out of people but have no qualms about taking an axe to their opponents veins to help with bloodflow, while others use their mind to protect themselves but weild a huge weapon. Some build their own mechs stuff so operation is not fluid thus sometimes must use kicks and punches to defend themselves. And etc. freedom to create my own. Now that i tasted tha tfreedom, I'm not partaking in any game where my heroes are pigeon holed into set archtypes because that is the achtypes the most popular comic people made in the 40s-70s said is supposed to be hero powers and nothing outside that line is allowed or not "comic book" like. Especially when hundreds of comic creations dont fit the popular archtype that is commonly quoted and have been the sole choices in COX.
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The way HaV is set up, it techncially doesn't need crowdfunding to succeeed.
Well optional or not, if the proof's there and I believe what I see, I'm willing to help out. And if I like what I see I'll help out even more. Since I don't have any of the skills needed, it's pretty much down to cash.
A freeform power system goes against the comic book genre on a fundamental level - the majority of comic book characters are defined by their power sets, which extends to their names and their outfits.
See, I agree with this take on it. If I had my preference I'd keep powersets. However, I am also intrigued by the ability to supplement such powersets with a small number of unrelated abilities. I always thought of power pools and epic power pools that way, as complete abnormalities in relation to the basic character. Powerset-wise, there was no call for my DM/Regen scrapper to have laser beam eyes... but she still did. And I loved it. If I made a freeform character that's likely how I'd do it; 90% of the powers relating to a theme, with a few "tricks up the sleeve" just for coolness.
If freeform is optional, I'll try it. And I might love it. But if it's not in the game at all, I wouldn't miss it. Powersets always worked fine for me.
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If I had my preference I'd keep powersets. However, I am also intrigued by the ability to supplement such powersets with a small number of unrelated abilities.
In that case, you'll like the HaV power system ;)
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In that case, you'll like the HaV power system ;)
Pity you had to choose the Hero engine.-
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I, for one, also fully like the archetype system that was built into CoH. I can't really see how a freeform system would fit my gameplay style. It it were just me, I would keep the same archetype system than CoH, and maybe add a freeform system on top of it, but I'm afraid it would only produce "jacks of all trades and masters of none " ...
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I, for one, also fully like the archetype system that was built into CoH. I can't really see how a freeform system would fit my gameplay style. It it were just me, I would keep the same archetype system than CoH, and maybe add a freeform system on top of it, but I'm afraid it would only produce "jacks of all trades and masters of none " ...
CoH had a freeform system on top of it, Kheldians.
You described them well.
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Pity you had to choose the Hero engine.-
Don't let Bioware's incompetence put you off ;)
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I totally agree with no hero and I wish I had been able to explain my view as well as he/she did. At the end of the day, all we want is CoH back (or a valid substitute) so, I don't really care which project does what, all I care is for the project that in the end will be able to deliver a game I enjoy. Which project will be best? providing all of them finally deliver a finished product, I'd say the one that takes no cheap shortcuts while not losing perspective.
Drifting too far from the CoH concept is tricky, first because the final product is under serious risk of being "just another superhero MMO" plus also, if cheap shortcuts not avoided, it can be very different to CoH but awfully close to any average fantasy MMO out there.
Making it too close to CoH is also tricky, I can understand the devs would like to create something more personal and not just clone something, however, I'd ask the people involved in all different projects to please remember that we're part of this community because we love CoH, and what we want is CoH back granted there were things that could be improved in CoH and it's a great opportunity for doing so, all I'm saying is to be aware on how far such improvements drift away from the original idea.
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I have tried freeform games and wind up leaving because of the sheer impersonal feel it saturates. SWG and SW both did not cut it for me. Sadly, I won't be paying money into a freeform system unless it is pretty much what was in Final Fantasy X. There any character could branch off into any tree, given time. But the main difference wound up being a set of core abilities factored into each character spiderwebbing outward to connect with the others. In a Super universe you need to be able to say, this character is different from this one and here's how. Not, "Oh, you're a telepath? Give me time and I will be one too." To me that's not how a superverse game should be.
Now, if we're talking "Here's the fire set, and here's the Melee, Blast, Control, Heal trees associated with it." Cool, as long as the fire animations are different from mental powers, etc. Cookie-cutting animations would also be a big turnoff.
I've made my statements about this elsewhere. But, in a nutshell, I much prefer the development engine the Phoenix Project chose. It looks very clean and Voodoo has shown how wonderful it can look with the demo vids. Gorgon looks like CoH style animations. Is there anything wrong with it, no. However, I would like to think the "next" game would want to have improvements made upon what came before graphically. Now, I may be wrong, but I would like to see some high end demonstrations of Gorgon to see if it compare to the other.
Also, some of the things I've seen with Gorgon seems to showcase cellshading. *gag* Please, no. Look to DCUO or CoH for how hero games should look. Not Borderlands or Champions. I know, I know "you can turn the cell shading off" but that doesn't change the fact that some of the pieces in CO look overly big and clunky. I just don't want that in a successor to CoH.
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At this stage any "System" is up for change. Last I heard the TPP was less total freeform and more advance powers customization.
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I totally agree with no hero and I wish I had been able to explain my view as well as he/she did.
:) Thank you :)
(...and he, unless I need a bio, then my wife takes the reins.)
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I've made my statements about this elsewhere. But, in a nutshell, I much prefer the development engine the Phoenix Project chose. It looks very clean and Voodoo has shown how wonderful it can look with the demo vids. Gorgon looks like CoH style animations. Is there anything wrong with it, no. However, I would like to think the "next" game would want to have improvements made upon what came before graphically. Now, I may be wrong, but I would like to see some high end demonstrations of Gorgon to see if it compare to the other.
Keep in mind that the videos showing what the engine can do will not reflect our own game due to the demands of an MMORPG. If you check out other MMO's running the same engine (Aion, Arche Age, Cabal 2) you will see that they have less detail than the FPS games, such as Crysis 2 and Far Cry 3. Part of that is the artistic style, but part is also the demands of the different genre of games.
A good example of CryENGINE based MMO game footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UzTVQh50Ys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UzTVQh50Ys)
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At this stage any "System" is up for change. Last I heard the TPP was less total freeform and more advance powers customization.
That is the target, yes.
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Yes, CryEngine still looks amazing, no matter what I've seen it put to develop. The same cannot be said of the proposed Gorgon engine. Again, my statement was more for concern of moving forward with an updated graphics quality. Everything I have seen with Gorgon does not give me confidence in this area. I could be wrong, I just want to see something high end as far as representation of the product. Currently, the Phoenix Project has some amazing potential as it is.
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A few things here.
1. I am willing to give this new addition the benefit of the doubt, just as I do with TPP and HaV. I will reserve full judgement until I see some concrete results (beyond planning and programming) or a lack thereof after some time has passed.
2. I have no interest in a freeform game and will not waste my time or money on it.
3. If there is too much difference between the new game and the Old COH (and that difference is judged by me) then I might as well continue trying to get into DCU Online.
4. I am deeply concerned with the engines both TPP and HaV have chosen. I don't think I like either of them. But, again, I will reserve final judgement until I see what they do with them.
5. People complain how OLD and out dated COH was....but I look at CO and DCUO, and I still can't help but think that the art was better, the interface was better, the character movement was better, and there is absolutely no doubt that the Character Creator was (and is if you have ICON ;D) better. The more I hear any of the teams talking about "improving" or "updating" the more worried I get.
6. I am also worried because I thought the intention of the Plan Z was to recreate the COH experience....with Updates as absolutely needed to avoid getting sued yet keeping as much as possible of the original...and THEN progressing to something like COH2. Yet the vibes I am starting to get say that the intent now is to go straight to the COH2 and leave the original in the past. This does not make me happy.
To put it plainly, I would like to see one of the projects come up with something like COH2...That would be wonderful....But only AFTER they have published something as close as possible to the original COH. Otherwise, they are simply creating just another Superhero MMO.
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in a way I think recreating the original would be difficult anyways without the lore, and various other things that may or may not fall into copyright/trademark/other laws catergories. Not to mention the change to improve many things that was put up with in the original but been wanting to improve or change if given the opportunity which is now. More than likely, as stated and from what I gather in the term spiritual succesor, it wont be a copy but some sort of continuation, like passing of the torch from Freedom Phalynx to a new main super group with Posi, Manti, S.Psyche being retired or somethign of the likes without them actually being in the game. As a side project, sure the 2004 graphics would work but asa competitive new game, I dont think the old 2004 graphics will fly in the world of MMO today for a brand new game unless the goal is just to be a side project with only the hard core players of COH being attracted to it, and depending on the direction looks like the potential player pool will be even smaller than the amount of people here with the things some will accept in order to play and what people view spiritual succesor as. I have a feeling unless it's a direct copy of COH, some people will walk away. If it's is a direct copy, still some people will walk away. Just as some people here would glady play COH in it's i6 form while others, especially those that came later prefer the i23 version. But in the end, they are creating another Superhero MMO unless they somehow get ahold of that IP or use the IP anyways and risk the stuff that comes with that decision.
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in a way I think recreating the original would be difficult anyways without the lore, and various other things that may or may not fall into copyright/trademark/other laws catergories. Not to mention the change to improve many things that was put up with in the original but been wanting to improve or change if given the opportunity which is now. More than likely, as stated and from what I gather in the term spiritual succesor, it wont be a copy but some sort of continuation, like passing of the torch from Freedom Phalynx to a new main super group with Posi, Manti, S.Psyche being retired or somethign of the likes without them actually being in the game. As a side project, sure the 2004 graphics would work but asa competitive new game, I dont think the old 2004 graphics will fly in the world of MMO today for a brand new game unless the goal is just to be a side project with only the hard core players of COH being attracted to it, and depending on the direction looks like the potential player pool will be even smaller than the amount of people here with the things some will accept in order to play and what people view spiritual succesor as. I have a feeling unless it's a direct copy of COH, some people will walk away. If it's is a direct copy, still some people will walk away. Just as some people here would glady play COH in it's i6 form while others, especially those that came later prefer the i23 version. But in the end, they are creating another Superhero MMO unless they somehow get ahold of that IP or use the IP anyways and risk the stuff that comes with that decision.
I understand what you are saying. And I don't think anyone wants to TPP or VaH to get sued. But, I have heard / seen a lot of downplay of a "clone". And I think that is EXACTLY what most are looking for to START with. Seriously....even if the Devs had been allowed to create a COH2, that does not mean that suddenly no one would want to play the original!
My opinion is that starting with a "clone" and THEN developing a "clone"2 would be the way to go. This would give people a REASON to see the new version as something other than "just another Superhero MMO". As it stand now....with out that, TTP and VaH are going to have to come up with something pretty spectacular to give people a REASON to choose their game over CO or DCUO. Just saying that "we are the spiritual successors to COH" will not be enough because they will not have COH or COH-clone to prove their point.
Okay, so it would not take something really spectacular to beat out CO....but I have to say that DCUO, despite its drawbacks and the fact that it is not COH, is pretty impressive.
I do respect both TPP and VaH, but I feel that they are both starting to lose sight of why people began to support them in the first place. It was not to create a new game...but rather to replace what we have lost. Now it seems as if they are trying to put the cart before the horse.
Hmmmm. Here is an idea. Why don't TPP and VaH come together to create that clone....and THEN branch off to create their separate versions of the next step?
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I have no interest in a freeform game and will not waste my time or money on it.
You'll like the HaV powers system then ;)
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I understand what you are saying. And I don't think anyone wants to TPP or VaH to get sued. But, I have heard / seen a lot of downplay of a "clone". And I think that is EXACTLY what most are looking for to START with. Seriously....even if the Devs had been allowed to create a COH2, that does not mean that suddenly no one would want to play the original!
My opinion is that starting with a "clone" and THEN developing a "clone"2 would be the way to go. This would give people a REASON to see the new version as something other than "just another Superhero MMO". As it stand now....with out that, TTP and VaH are going to have to come up with something pretty spectacular to give people a REASON to choose their game over CO or DCUO. Just saying that "we are the spiritual successors to COH" will not be enough because they will not have COH or COH-clone to prove their point.
Okay, so it would not take something really spectacular to beat out CO....but I have to say that DCUO, despite its drawbacks and the fact that it is not COH, is pretty impressive.
I do respect both TPP and VaH, but I feel that they are both starting to lose sight of why people began to support them in the first place. It was not to create a new game...but rather to replace what we have lost. Now it seems as if they are trying to put the cart before the horse.
Hmmmm. Here is an idea. Why don't TPP and VaH come together to create that clone....and THEN branch off to create their separate versions of the next step?
I see. Well TPP and HaV did start off as one per se at one point in time then branched.
But I understand exactly what you are saying. Now that I am playing CO, and deep into it and like it, it would take something better to convince me to leave. CO pulled me away from COX towards the end when it started to get grindy end content and incarnate and other stuff I had no interest in that made me think that I might as well play WoW. And thus it would have to be something I'm looking for for me to leave my current game and go to the new one. Granted, I would still be happier than a bed bug staying in CO as long as majority of the community is happy with the results even if it means there is nothing of my interest included in the game.
As I mentioned to long ago, there is always ups and down with something built by and for the community. (in theory and ideal) The good thing is that it's for the community and built as a game with the community wishes in mind. The down side there is hundreds of views and answers of what the community want with each person thinking they have the brightest idea of what makes a game that will attract players. Not to mention eventually the business section will come into play with operation cost, server costs, what a customer gets with a monthly sub (rental or actual investment and ownership of said game and or company and what power does that entails), what happens if it runs into the red, advertising, mods, gm, tech support, updates, etc.
Then the specific goal. Is it merely to make a niche game where only a few gamers know about and will play. That is easy to cater to the inner circle of people. Or is it to reach a braoder audience which is more of a challenge? Even if it's is COH2, if the intentions is to entice new players, some of those new players may have or may have not ever even heard of COH and thus it may not be viewed as a sequel to them.
From the stuff I seen from both projects, and asa long time COX player, neither one look like a sequel at all. And one hand, that may be disappointing for people looking for a clone. On the other hand to me, it's refreshing. I can see a little bit of COX in each but it's original enough that it is it's own game. It's like to me closest thing I can think of off the top of the brain is that Prometheus movie and the Alien series. While there is a lot of alien stuff in there and take place in the same realm it feels like it's not even really part of the series. I have watched and very familiar with Alien lore and thus the tie ins are very familiar. Yet, I know peope who never seen a single Alien film and some that that seen and despised the Alien series like Prometheus. To the people that never seen any of the Alien films, Prometheus was another random sci-fi outer space movie.
From what I see, it's kind of why many sequels never surpass the first film. After the first, there are thousands of ideas of what consist of a true sequel while many who never seen the first nor was interested in the first usually dont go see the sequel. But like anything, including human behavior and views, likes dislikes, normal/wierd, there is always exceptions.
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I see. Well TPP and HaV did start off as one per se at one point in time then branched.
But I understand exactly what you are saying. Now that I am playing CO, and deep into it and like it, it would take something better to convince me to leave. CO pulled me away from COX towards the end when it started to get grindy end content and incarnate and other stuff I had no interest in that made me think that I might as well play WoW. And thus it would have to be something I'm looking for for me to leave my current game and go to the new one. Granted, I would still be happier than a bed bug staying in CO as long as majority of the community is happy with the results even if it means there is nothing of my interest included in the game.
As I mentioned to long ago, there is always ups and down with something built by and for the community. (in theory and ideal) The good thing is that it's for the community and built as a game with the community wishes in mind. The down side there is hundreds of views and answers of what the community want with each person thinking they have the brightest idea of what makes a game that will attract players. Not to mention eventually the business section will come into play with operation cost, server costs, what a customer gets with a monthly sub (rental or actual investment and ownership of said game and or company and what power does that entails), what happens if it runs into the red, advertising, mods, gm, tech support, updates, etc.
Then the specific goal. Is it merely to make a niche game where only a few gamers know about and will play. That is easy to cater to the inner circle of people. Or is it to reach a braoder audience which is more of a challenge? Even if it's is COH2, if the intentions is to entice new players, some of those new players may have or may have not ever even heard of COH and thus it may not be viewed as a sequel to them.
From the stuff I seen from both projects, and asa long time COX player, neither one look like a sequel at all. And one hand, that may be disappointing for people looking for a clone. On the other hand to me, it's refreshing. I can see a little bit of COX in each but it's original enough that it is it's own game. It's like to me closest thing I can think of off the top of the brain is that Prometheus movie and the Alien series. While there is a lot of alien stuff in there and take place in the same realm it feels like it's not even really part of the series. I have watched and very familiar with Alien lore and thus the tie ins are very familiar. Yet, I know peope who never seen a single Alien film and some that that seen and despised the Alien series like Prometheus. To the people that never seen any of the Alien films, Prometheus was another random sci-fi outer space movie.
From what I see, it's kind of why many sequels never surpass the first film. After the first, there are thousands of ideas of what consist of a true sequel while many who never seen the first nor was interested in the first usually dont go see the sequel. But like anything, including human behavior and views, likes dislikes, normal/wierd, there is always exceptions.
Yeah. Ask two people what they want...get three answers. That is one reason I advocate the "clone" to start with. The known quantity that has a better chance of holding the community together while the new concepts are developed and tested.
The longer things drag out and the further the Plan Z's stray from the original without that concrete 'something' to hold the community together, the better chance that community is going to drift apart..despite best intentions!
Right now, people want their game back! If they can't have that, they would be satisfied with a clone (which is what the original Plan Z led people to believe was their goal) with the possibility of a "COH2" in the future. With the clone in place, there would be time and people would be more inclined to discuss changes. Throw the commumity a bone in the form of a playable clone that will NOT be updated, THEN get to work on the new games.
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Yeah. Ask two people what they want...get three answers. That is one reason I advocate the "clone" to start with. The known quantity that has a better chance of holding the community together while the new concepts are developed and tested.
The longer things drag out and the further the Plan Z's stray from the original without that concrete 'something' to hold the community together, the better chance that community is going to drift apart..despite best intentions!
True.
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Anyone else notice that this "developer" person hasn't posted in a while?
Also, "the TPP" is kinda like "ATM machine." [/grammarnazi]
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There hasn't been that much action on his forum either.
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Yeah. Ask two people what they want...get three answers. That is one reason I advocate the "clone" to start with. The known quantity that has a better chance of holding the community together while the new concepts are developed and tested.
The longer things drag out and the further the Plan Z's stray from the original without that concrete 'something' to hold the community together, the better chance that community is going to drift apart..despite best intentions!
Right now, people want their game back! If they can't have that, they would be satisfied with a clone (which is what the original Plan Z led people to believe was their goal) with the possibility of a "COH2" in the future. With the clone in place, there would be time and people would be more inclined to discuss changes. Throw the commumity a bone in the form of a playable clone that will NOT be updated, THEN get to work on the new games.
You are aware that it would take as much time to develop a clone as to build an all new system. And by the time the clone is done, the world has left it behind, the novelty and nostalgia no longer laser-sharp.
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You are aware that it would take as much time to develop a clone as to build an all new system. And by the time the clone is done, the world has left it behind, the novelty and nostalgia no longer laser-sharp.
Actually, I am not aware of that at all. Nor do I think that is completely accurate. By going with the known quantity, you are shaving off a lot of development time. You are working with known and available models which would require only minor alterations instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. This should give you a tremendous boost in dealing with the client side aspects, leaving the server side aspect so be recreated. You have a laid out plan that is ready to go.
Whereas, going with a new system right off the bat has a better chance of splintering (as we have seen), getting bogged down as whole new concepts have to be worked out, run the risks of finally completing something...for a community that is no longer there, etc. etc.
Look, I understand the desire to create something new and wonderful. Something that takes what we loved and improves upon it..... I just think, like I said earlier...that Both TPP and VaH are putting the cart before the horse.
I don't expect you to agree with me. But from my perspective, I am seeing a lot of grandiose concepts being tossed around by both teams.....each one taking them further and further from their initial stated goals...to give the players back their City....Or a reasonable facsimile thereof. I WILL continue to support both teams until either or both finally decide to come out with something that is so different that I will have no choice but to give them no more consideration than I would CO or DCUO. I BELIEVED in the original Plan Z because they promised to give me back at least a taste of what I lost....Now....I am not so sure. TPP is talking freeform (which I won't support), VaH is talking an iffy engine (which worries me a tad bit)...... Both are talking grand new things...and Both are talking about how dated the COH system was and how it really wasn't all that great anyway.....Yeah....I am a bit worried about the directions the teams are going.
Bottom line, No, I don't think it entirely accurate to say that it would take just as long to create a clone as it would a new system. Will it take time? sure. But I believe it would be time well spent! But, of course, it would mean delaying the grand new games......
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I'll agree that it's very odd to hear the teams talking about how dated CoH was, when the entire the reason they formed was to recreate something like CoH and to give a home to the homeless.
But, like you, I'll support both teams. But I'm also realistic. I don't expect anything to actually come from either team. I would, however, love to be proven wrong. And it's not like I'm over here badmouthing the teams because they don't have a playable alpha, right now.
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As far as the HaV team is concerned, generally, the only area of CoH that could be thought of as outdated are some aspects of the graphics - mitten hands, static faces, lower poly player avatars, lower resolution NPC textures and models from 2004, non-ultra mode zone graphics. and so on.
CoH twice brushed aside newer superhero MMOS, and remained the comic book MMO market leader by some distance at the time of its closure - we're working under the guideline of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it - unless legally required to do so".
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I noticed that someone voiced concern about the possibility that we abandoned the thread. We haven't, we've been working on legal documentation to grant an evaluation of Gorgon technology to the programming division of The Phoenix Project. We've been in further discussions, and will share information as progress is reached. As I stated in the beginning, it's very important for us to see some immediate forward progress and playability happen in the coming month; especially seeing as our technology is already engineered for rapid prototyping. We also feel that it's that much more important to insure the continuity of City of Heroes as much as we can. I honestly feel we're all here for the same reason. Though I do believe there were many areas where City of Heroes could use improvement, I don't feel that it needs a complete overhaul. We're also aware of legal boundaries and limitations. As someone said, it's impossible to directly recreate the gameplay sensation of City of Heroes. So, in all reality, a clone.... no matter how similar.... can't feel 100% identical t the original. I'm sure we've all played our share of MMOs that were labeled clones, but felt remotely different from the original while drawing strong inspiration from the original.
I also noticed someone pitched a challenge asking what element of City of Heroes I felt was the biggest "nerf". As I've only played as energy characters, weather it was energy melee or energy blaster, I can only speak on those elements. I'm the type of individual that finds something I like and sticks with it; this is also the way I cam with food and other elements of life. I felt that the original energy melee was incredibly debilitated once they moved to the higher emphasis on float values or more accurate percentage calculations. Not only did I noticed its standard usage unmodified would use more energy to activate at an much higher incremental rate, it did slightly less damage and decremented at a value of .23% of it's original DMG variable, prior to the new system. One thing I understand from my long history of playing MMORPGs is that balance is most important for maintaining a positive and equal gameplay experience. So I was never one of the people that took it to the next level in frustration, I simply went back to my energy blaster character and after a few enhancement tweaks and skill progression restructures, I was a happy player.
Unfortunately, I don't have time at the moment to respond to all comments as quickly as I'd like to; this is due to the fact that I felt it was time to focus more on bringing the city back and less on opinionated discussions . People will voice their concerns and those concerns are well-met and all have merit. This is very important to all of us I'm sure, even if we disagree on many of ideas/suggestions others consider valid points. Our goal is to build the strongest, most capable, internal team we can. Then we plan to deliver frequent prototypes to the community. Finally we will then start to involve everyone in the development cycle.
The world of CoH was a home for many of us, and much like in reality, we all like our homes a certain way. I bet most of you get easily upset when someone comes into our homes and try to change things from the way we have had them set; I know I do. It hasn't been my intention to make anyone feel uneasy or concerned with my post. If I've done that, I apologize. I was looking to gain a greater perspective on what the community thought about becoming committed to building a CoH successor. This thread has yielded a lot of great answers, and I'm most appreciative for everyone's input. I've just been one of the lonely wanderers waiting for someone to fight for the city. I assure you we are working hard to rebuild what we've lost and keep lines of communication open to the public. Expect more information and progress updates as we move forward..
Thanks again everyone.
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the only area of CoH that could be thought of as outdated are some aspects of the graphics - mitten hands, static faces, lower poly player avatars, lower resolution NPC textures and models from 2004, non-ultra mode zone graphics. and so on.
Oh come on just say it, we all know you want to... CoH lacked ANIMATED HAIR ;D
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Oh come on just say it, we all know you want to... CoH lacked ANIMATED HAIR ;D
But it didn't. Ghost Widow, anyone? :P
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Maybe if Freeform were an option, it'd be okay, but I definitely want CoH's Archetype/Powerset system first and foremost.
Which brings me to a more general concern about any attempt at a "spiritual successor": everyone liked different things about CoH, and everyone wanted different things improved, and any "spiritual successor" is going to disappoint people - both for sticking too closely to CoH's style and for not sticking to it closely enough.
I never said there shouldn't be a focus on archetypes, just that archetypes shouldn't be the only option.
And yeah, no one game can satisfy everyone. Hell, even if by some miracle we got the actual CoH back, complete with our existing accounts and characters, people would complain.
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But it didn't. Ghost Widow, anyone? :P
That was no good for GG, I mean, actually, it just encouraged her even more to ask for animated hair in forums, can't blame her, she spent years asking for necklines and she got them.-
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I'll agree that it's very odd to hear the teams talking about how dated CoH was, when the entire the reason they formed was to recreate something like CoH and to give a home to the homeless.
But, like you, I'll support both teams. But I'm also realistic. I don't expect anything to actually come from either team. I would, however, love to be proven wrong. And it's not like I'm over here badmouthing the teams because they don't have a playable alpha, right now.
LOL Just to clarify.....I am not bad mouthing LOL I respect both teams even if I do not totally agree on the directions. To be honest, I am just enjoying the reasoned, calm, and friendly conversation we're having :)
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And yeah, no one game can satisfy everyone. Hell, even if by some miracle we got the actual CoH back, complete with our existing accounts and characters, people would complain.
But of course they would complain...it is the nature of the beast. "Yeah, you got our game back....but what have you done for me in the last few minutes? hmmmm? Why isn't that new game ready to go yet? Sheeesh....Get busy already!!!"
Neither team should try to please everyone....they would never get anything done (I would add something else, but one of my team mates stole my smart-ass switch and forgot to give it back before the city closed down....still trying to hunt her down on FB)
And giving the community a playable clone would not stop the complaints. But I think it would have beneficial effects for both teams. (especially if it was a joint effort.....yeah...I know the likelihood of that happening...but hell, the Eagles got back together...so Hell has already froze over)
Seriously, if the teams put out a clone.....something for the community to at least get a bit of their old COH fix, with the understanding that "this is it, folks. We won't be updating or adding new material..." they might put a plug in the dike that is springing leaks.
I will admit that the reason I suggest both teams get together to put out the clone is because I think if only one team put it out...that team would already enjoy a tremendous advantage over the other.
For example, let say the VaH team put out a playable clone...and understand that I am thinking a limited clone here, it does not have to be on the same scale as COH when it closed down....then VaH will have cornered a LOT of support for their new game when it comes out.
Look at what started this thread in the first place! Gladius came in with a few notions...and suddenly we have a NEW Plan Z Project. While I am willing to give Gladius the benefit of the doubt, I can't as yet elevate him to the same status of regard in which I hold the people of TPP or VaH (and I admit I have a soft spot for GG since her online comic helped me out when I first started playing COH). But the fact that he instantly gained so much support shows how hungry the community is for SOMETHING that neither team is really providing at this time....hope.
In the end, is possible that both teams will be successful in their endeavors? Sure. But I am afraid that by the time they are, they won't have a ready made base to start with. On the other hand, yeah, I know it would take time to develop a clone (and common sense still insists that such an endeavor would not take as long as a full blown new game) But knowing that they are working on it...along with progress updates, would stand a better chance of keeping a greater part of the community together.
And has anyone looked at the number of people both teams have working? You put all those people to work on a clone.....then you publish the clone...and I do NOT suggest it be free to play. A small monthly fee...which could then be divided up to help fund BOTH efforts to the new games.
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Actually, I am not aware of that at all. Nor do I think that is completely accurate. By going with the known quantity, you are shaving off a lot of development time. You are working with known and available models which would require only minor alterations instead of trying to re-invent the wheel. This should give you a tremendous boost in dealing with the client side aspects, leaving the server side aspect so be recreated. You have a laid out plan that is ready to go.
Whereas, going with a new system right off the bat has a better chance of splintering (as we have seen), getting bogged down as whole new concepts have to be worked out, run the risks of finally completing something...for a community that is no longer there, etc. etc.
Look, I understand the desire to create something new and wonderful. Something that takes what we loved and improves upon it..... I just think, like I said earlier...that Both TPP and VaH are putting the cart before the horse.
I don't expect you to agree with me. But from my perspective, I am seeing a lot of grandiose concepts being tossed around by both teams.....each one taking them further and further from their initial stated goals...to give the players back their City....Or a reasonable facsimile thereof. I WILL continue to support both teams until either or both finally decide to come out with something that is so different that I will have no choice but to give them no more consideration than I would CO or DCUO. I BELIEVED in the original Plan Z because they promised to give me back at least a taste of what I lost....Now....I am not so sure. TPP is talking freeform (which I won't support), VaH is talking an iffy engine (which worries me a tad bit)...... Both are talking grand new things...and Both are talking about how dated the COH system was and how it really wasn't all that great anyway.....Yeah....I am a bit worried about the directions the teams are going.
Bottom line, No, I don't think it entirely accurate to say that it would take just as long to create a clone as it would a new system. Will it take time? sure. But I believe it would be time well spent! But, of course, it would mean delaying the grand new games......
To make a clone you would in effect need to rebuild the original engine. Perhaps not the graphics engine, but the combat engine, zoning engine, etc. As this has to be done through reverse engineering, a slow process as anyone with SEGS can tell you, there is no actual time saved with a clone. I know we evaluated it very early on, before the TPP/H&V split, and found that the time to deliver, simply put, was as much as to produce from scratch.
To speed things up, you see what areas you *can* get rid of, things like the zoning engine or the server system, use a new system for that. Once you do that, then you look at other areas to improve upon, to reduce the time to clone. After all that, you've deviated so much, you may as well go full-on-bore for a new project.
I'm not against a clone, and in fact I still have a writeup and some test code for making one. If someone were to come to me with a serious proposal for one, and the tools for it, I may reconsider. Pity the "Atlas Park Revisited" person chose Unreal, which does not offer itself well to a CoH-like MMO. (or any MMO unless you pay big bucks for their Atlas server system)
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The fact that he instantly gained so much support shows how hungry the community is for SOMETHING that neither team is really providing at this time....hope.
I'm a tad curious as to what hope you think people would like to see - as my avatar/title indicates, I'm part of TPP and am interested in the sort of thing you think people would like to see (bearing in mind that things like 'a game' and 'a video' or 'the character creator' will actually take some time to do) and how you're classifying 'hope'.
I'm asking because I'm aware that HAV post a weekly update on what they're doing, have given interviews and shown off concept art and have an active FB and Twitter account, while TPP have created regular development blogs, post concept art and updates on our website/Twitter/FB feeds (and postings in various community COH FB groups), have produced a promotional video and given a number of interviews.
With no disrespect to Valiance Online, the only thing I have currently seen from them is a webpage and a forum.
So I am reasonably curious as to why you (or anyone else) thinks people saw Valiance as 'hope', but (possibly) don't consider the significant amounts of material, interviews and information being given out by the other projects in the same light?
Is it just that people who haven't signed up to the various FB/Twitter/forums are feeling left out of the loop?
(Edited because I speel gud.)
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I'm a tad curious as to what hope you think people would like to see - as my avatar/title indicates, I'm part of TPP and I'm curious as to what sort of thing you think people would like to see (bearing in mind that things like 'a game' and 'a video' or 'the character creator' will actually take some time to do) and how you're classifying 'hope'.
I'm asking because I'm aware that HAV post a weekly update on what they're doing, have given interviews and shown off concept art and have an active FB and Twitter account, while TPP have created regular development blogs, post concept art and updates on our website/Twitter/FB feeds (and postings in various community COH FB groups), have produced a promotional video and given a number of interviews.
With no disrespect to Valiance Online, the only thing I have currently seen from them is a webpage and a forum.
So I am reasonably curious as to why you (or anyone else) thinks people saw Valiance as 'hope', but (possibly) don't consider the significant amounts of material, interviews and information being given out by the other projects in the same light?
Is it just that people who haven't signed up to the various FB/Twitter/forums are feeling left out of the loop?
What I personally saw in the Valiance project at the beginning that gave me the kind of hope I didn't get from TPP and HaV was that Aviticus mentioned he was going to do a game as close as the original CoH as possible, a clone with just the minimum changes to avoid any legal action from NCSoft.
See, I didn't get such hope from TPP because, at the time I used to follow the missing worlds media forums, the project was drifting away from the CoH idea too much for my taste, maybe it changed later but I had already lost my interest and never checked back.
I didn't get such hope from the HaV project either because, despite they seemed to plan something much closer to the original CoH, they chose possibly the worst game engine available.
All in all, you're right, all we got so far is a lot of talking, a bunch of cloned websites for non-existing games and, after following the few posts from Aviticus in the Valiance forums, the certainty that nobody there ever played CoH. Now that I come to review Aviticus Gladius arrival to these forums and after re-reading his posts, well, I feel stupid because everything seems obvious now, however, it nevertheless shows up to which point I was hungry for something I don't think any of the existing teams will provide.
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Thx for that explanation, Downix.
Just so it is understood, I am NOT bad-mouthing anyone... I don't agree totally with the directions the two teams are going (and even less so from what I have seen on about the Justice team) and I enjoy talking about it in a calm, reasoned manner :) I still support both teams...hell, I created banners for both teams and have them in my banner rotation on my fan-fiction site and am looking forward to the day I can replace the CO and DCUO buttons in the MMORPG module with TPP and VaH buttons!
Yes, I do fear both teams are straying...and DO risk losing the support they enjoyed, but in the end, YOU guys are the ones doing the work. I understand that your priorities might not always go hand in hand with what the community wants or needs.
I guess where we differ is what should be a priority. Correct me if I get the following scenario wrong:
When faced with the fact that a clone would take time (and sorry, I am still not convinced that it would take as long as a project started from scratch), it was decided to by pass this option (and recall that THIS option is what gained Plan Z support in the first place) and go forward with a totally new game.
It was at this point that Plan Z divided into two separate teams (and no, I do NOT want to know the why of the division...creative differences happen and it should have been expected that some would want to go left while others wanted to go right). But for whatever reason, the split occurred. This came as a bit of a blow to a lot of the community.
A second blow, really, since they had already been informed that, no, you will not get the game that Plan Z was formed to give you in the first place.
Now, if you look at any of my posts on the subject, you will see that the split did not bother me personally. I actually thought it a good idea. Of course, at the time, I thought that one team was wanting to work on a completely new game and the other wanted to work on what would amount to an updated "clone". I thought this was a fine notion. Of course I was wrong. (I cannot, at this time recall my reasoning for thinking that TPP was working on the updated "clone" while VaH was going forward with something new.)
Now, with this division..and with the focus straying further and further away from what COH was, an atmosphere has been created that has allowed not one but two new "teams" to jump into the pot to muddy the waters even more.
Shrug. What is done is done. Perhaps it is too late for either TPP or VaH to work on developing a "clone". But I will say that if some other team announces that they are working on a clone, start giving updates as to progress and end up publishing that "clone" and announced that they would then begin work on a "clone2", that team will have fulfilled the promise of the original Plan Z. They will have gained the gratitude of a major portion of the community (and I don't mean just those here on the Titan Network...I talk to others that don't come here...despite my efforts to convince them to come here and let their voices be heard) and TPP and VaH will have to work a lot harder to regain the support they originally enjoyed.
I don't see any easy answers. But I fear that, as time goes on, both TPP and VaH are going to lose support as the less hard core elements of the community begin to drift away. (I guess the best we can hope for, since both teams are dead set against a clone, is that some how Task Force Hail Mary is some how successful.)
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Thanks Nightmarer - I'm sorry you don't feel any of the current projects are really what you're looking for. I would say that all the of people who have come forward have said they are community projects, looking for the feedback of their community, so it is worth heading to the various groups and making sure you have your say. Obviously, no-one can please everyone, but if you just lurk don't speak up, you'll never be heard.
If the various projects aren't ticking various boxes for certain people, that's a real shame. But I'd imagine that both of them have changed somewhat since the early days, so you may find a little more hope that the things you want are being created if you pop your head back into them again.
Obviously, as has been said a billion times before, legal constraints mean that nobody can (legally) recreate COX as it was. I know I miss COH more than I'd care to admit, and I know it's the same for many others of the various 'successor' projects.
I was just worried that people feel that there isn't enough information coming out about the projects - or the WRONG information was coming out, and in the case of TPP, it's sort of my job to make sure that's not the case.
Of course, having said that if there are people who want to be kept up-to-date in ways other than the ones we already do - or if we're not putting out the sort of information they want to hear about, PM me here, or on the MWM forums (www.missingworldsmedia.com/forums - I have the same username on both) and tell me what other methods we could be using, I'll do my best to make it happen :)
And I'm sure that'd be the same for the other projects, too.
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double post deleted ;D
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I'm a tad curious as to what hope you think people would like to see - as my avatar/title indicates, I'm part of TPP and I'm curious as to what sort of thing you think people would like to see (bearing in mind that things like 'a game' and 'a video' or 'the character creator' will actually take some time to do) and how you're classifying 'hope'.
Nightmarer answered it pretty well. I guess the best way to sum it up would be to say they see some one come in, talking a good game, offering something they want that both TPP and VaH both say isn't going to happen...it does tend to give hope. False hope, maybe...but none the less.
(I am going to have to change my Sig to add a statement that clarifies the point that I am NOT attempting to be disrespectful to either TPP or VaH, Just showing friendly disagreement and enjoying the conversation.)
(my fiance is making me add this...she says I would argue with a stump if I could LOL)
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but if you just lurk don't speak up, you'll never be heard.
See, that's a very good point. After reading your post, I started thinking why I never joined the forums and instead, I just lurked and never bothered checking back when I saw where it was heading. I guess the answer, in my particular case, is that I don't feel that either project is a community driven one but I'm not sure why that is. On one side, I think it's partly because of the split, let me see if I can explain myself (not so easy for me in English):
The fact that a community driven effort by a group of people who had such disagreements that made said project split in two kinda set up the tone of what was in store, see, I have no game developing skills whatsoever, I can't help either writing or even proof reading since English is not my native language so the way I saw it was "how the heck are they going to listen to anything I might suggest if they couldn't get in agreement among themselves in the first place?".
I know what I'm saying is not fair to any of the teams, specially not knowing any of you in person, however, that's the way I felt it and that's why I just lurked in TPP forums without voicing an opinion, I just thought there was little point to it.
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There is always a point Nightmarer. Even if that point is to say... "I am just one voice among Millions, but still I don't agree with you." Sometimes that's all it takes. Just one voice asking "But should we do that?" It causes us to stop just for a moment.
For me I posted this on the MWM Forum.
One fear I have for any "CLONE" of city of Heroes is it won't have the great stories. More often I would turn off my XP gain and just do missions following the story arcs. The newer ones were better, but some of the older ones were gems as well.
No matter how identical the mechanics are if the writing team not up to par a direct clone would suck. That why I'm glad The Phoenix Project not Trying to be City of heroes. The stories here would be fresh with fresh background and layers.
Nostalgia is a cruel thing. We remember fondly cartoons or movies of our past, but when watching them again... did you know the Transformers animation sucked? The point is no matter how good a game is if it's to much like the Original it would trigger nostalgia and comparing the new game to our Memories of City of Heroes filtered through nostalgia it would have no hope at all. At worst we end up with a Superboy-Prime effect where we end up angry that things are so much alike and yet so wrong we end up hating the new game. Even if the new game is good.
Two things strike me as being the heart of City of heroes. Stories that make you want to read and do them over and over, and the community that makes you enjoy helping a new player experience the City for the first time.
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See, that's a very good point. After reading your post, I started thinking why I never joined the forums and instead, I just lurked and never bothered checking back when I saw where it was heading. I guess the answer, in my particular case, is that I don't feel that either project is a community driven one but I'm not sure why that is. On one side, I think it's partly because of the split, let me see if I can explain myself (not so easy for me in English):
The fact that a community driven effort by a group of people who had such disagreements that made said project split in two kinda set up the tone of what was in store, see, I have no game developing skills whatsoever, I can't help either writing or even proof reading since English is not my native language so the way I saw it was "how the heck are they going to listen to anything I might suggest if they couldn't get in agreement among themselves in the first place?".
I know what I'm saying is not fair to any of the teams, specially not knowing any of you in person, however, that's the way I felt it and that's why I just lurked in TPP forums without voicing an opinion, I just thought there was little point to it.
I can understand that, I was also nervous about getting involved. Even after I did get involved, I think it took a month for me to post anything :-)
The split was obviously not an ideal situation, but from my experience with TPP, the group has a solid core and foundation who have been together for 6 months now and has a growing community springing up around us which keeps us in line and have been incredibly supportive.
Please remember that there are probably hundreds of fantasy games and fps on the market, each appealing to a huge variety of players, who choose 'their' game because they like how it looks/plays/feels over others. I love L4D, but I hate CS and TF. I can lose myself in DA for hours, but WOW leaves me cold.
But please don't think you have nothing to offer - outside of the obvious writers/artists/programmers, all of the projects need the people to support them - business guys, finance guys, web guys, convention goers, social media addicts, legal minds, HR guys, accountants, TRANSLATORS :-) , and just people with cool ideas who go: "it'd be so cool if..." or "for the love of god, no!"
I honestly can't think of a single skill set that couldn't be put to use, should you be inclined to stick your head in to any of the projects. Don't sell yourself short :-)
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Nightmarer answered it pretty well. I guess the best way to sum it up would be to say they see some one come in, talking a good game, offering something they want that both TPP and VaH both say isn't going to happen...it does tend to give hope. False hope, maybe...but none the less.
(I am going to have to change my Sig to add a statement that clarifies the point that I am NOT attempting to be disrespectful to either TPP or VaH, Just showing friendly disagreement and enjoying the conversation.)
(my fiance is making me add this...she says I would argue with a stump if I could LOL)
All feedback is good feedback. No offense taken :-)
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Another thing I must ask for a Clone is... a clone of what Issue of City of heroes. The game has had some major changes over the years, even if we made a full copy with just some art and name changes. We still have people going "Couldn't you have done a pre-Issue 13 it so the PVP WORKED!" or those who would want Pre-Issue 6 so they wouldn't have to have "Enhancement Diversification".
With focusing on what City of Heroes does rather then How City of Heroes does it we can build from the ground up for PVP instead of having to shoe horn it in as it seemed with City of Heroes/City of Villains.
Like you said no one going to get what we really want. That's our home back with all it's flaws and it's greatness. We can however get something that works if we work together it might not be City of Heroes... But we can strive to make it a Home.
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they had already been informed that, no, you will not get the game that Plan Z was formed to give you in the first place.
As the person who got the whole Plan Z ball rolling back at the start of September last year, I can safely say that the intention was never to clone CoH, for one simple reason - it's legally a non-starter - we can't copy CoH feature for feature, system for system, design choice for design choice and hope to end up with something that could get past copyrigth lawyers - it's just not possible.
There has to be a selective and creative approach to making a true spiritual successor to CoH, which is why the design process for HaV has been broekn down into 3 steps:
1 - What parts of CoH are so common to games/MMOs in general that a direct copy is ok?
2 - What parts of CoH are more unique to CoH, and will require a creative recreation to deliver the same end results, even if the route to those results is changed in some way?
3 - What were the longest/most frequest feature requests/design choice complaints made about CoH that were never fully implemented or addressed during its 8 year run that we will now have the freedom to look at as we're starting from scratch?
This template has been applied to every design choice made in HaV so far, to guide the project towards its goal of creating a comic book MMO that's a true and legally safe spiritual successor to CoH.
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With focusing on what City of Heroes does rather then How City of Heroes does it we can build from the ground up for PVP instead of having to shoe horn it in as it seemed with City of Heroes/City of Villains.
Like you said no one going to get what we really want. That's our home back with all it's flaws and it's greatness. We can however get something that works if we work together it might not be City of Heroes... But we can strive to make it a Home.
Just one comment on the PVP aspect....UGH. I hate PVP But I would have been bothered if COH had dropped it....because a lot of my friends DID like PVP and it was kept completely separate from my desired type of play (ie Co-op). That would be a make or break for me concerning a new game. If the two styles of play were not kept separate, I would have no interest.
But Let's focus on the second part of the above quote. This is a stand I admit I cannot understand. If all we wanted to do was make a new home, why bother going through the effort of creating new games that may or may not be the equal of the two games already out there (CO and DCUO)?
It is not the desire to "play a game" that is the central point of this community (unless I am greatly mistaken)...But rather continue what we had AND evolving forward. Without that first part, what is the sense? Why not just move to CO or DCUO lock, stock, and barrel if all we wanted was a game to play?
Even with "all it's flaws", the community is ABOUT City of Heroes. It is not about TPP Game or HaV Game or Team 3 Game or Team 4 Game (ugh....horrid vision of people with t-shirts proclaiming their team loyalty....I will never forgive my fiance for making me watch Twilight......).
So....we've been told that a clone is not feasible.....(still not convinced but......) So if we are ditching COH (and that is exactly what is happening)....what is going to set either project (TPP or HaV) apart from CO and DCUO? And I am not talking game mechanics here. What will it be that encourages people to choose TPP or HaV or both over CO or DCUO?
Saying "a place to make a new home" really won't work. We could do that now with CO or DCUO. Why don't we? Because it is COH "with all it's flaws" that keeps us together. (one encouraging thing I have seen was a statement from GG that basically said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it") .
I should point out, again, that I am not advocating a full blown clone of COH...but rather a scaled down version that will just be there to play...maintained...but not updated. (In other words, new material should not be expected). Does that seem like a useless endeavor? The way I see it, it would be just as useless as putting mortar between stones when building a wall. It could well turn out to be the cement that keeps the community together while TPP and HaV move forward in their own directions to give the community NEW and Exciting experiences with two new games Both teams would find a handy community waiting for what they have to offer....giving the players a choice...and yet maintaining that cement that would keep us altogether....whether we chose to go with one, or the other...or CO or DCUO. (Though seriously, Both TPP and HaV would already have an advantage over those other two).
(Edited to remove a statement that, on seeing it after posting, promoted a tone I do not wish in my posts....I am enjoying the conversation and have no wish to disrespect people involved with either team.)
(Edited again to change all the VaH to HaV....I probably made the same typo i previous posts...but this is the one in which my mistake was caught LOL)
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VaH
Sorry, if this is an inside joke that I fail to get, but is it not HaV ?
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3 - What were the longest/most frequest feature requests/design choice complaints made about CoH that were never fully implemented or addressed during its 8 year run that we will now have the freedom to look at as we're starting from scratch?
Smarter MM pets.
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Just one comment on the PVP aspect....UGH. I hate PVP But I would have been bothered if COH had dropped it....because a lot of my friends DID like PVP and it was kept completely separate from my desired type of play (ie Co-op). That would be a make or break for me concerning a new game. If the two styles of play were not kept separate, I would have no interest.
But Let's focus on the second part of the above quote. This is a stand I admit I cannot understand. If all we wanted to do was make a new home, why bother going through the effort of creating new games that may or may not be the equal of the two games already out there (CO and DCUO)?
It is not the desire to "play a game" that is the central point of this community (unless I am greatly mistaken)...But rather continue what we had AND evolving forward. Without that first part, what is the sense? Why not just move to CO or DCUO lock, stock, and barrel if all we wanted was a game to play?
Even with "all it's flaws", the community is ABOUT City of Heroes. It is not about TPP Game or VaH Game or Team 3 Game or Team 4 Game (ugh....horrid vision of people with t-shirts proclaiming their team loyalty....I will never forgive my fiance for making me watch Twilight......).
So....we've been told that a clone is not feasible.....(still not convinced but......) So if we are ditching COH (and that is exactly what is happening)....what is going to set either project (TPP or VaH) apart from CO and DCUO? And I am not talking game mechanics here. What will it be that encourages people to choose TPP or VaH or both over CO or DCUO?
Saying "a place to make a new home" really won't work. We could do that now with CO or DCUO. Why don't we? Because it is COH "with all it's flaws" that keeps us together. (one encouraging thing I have seen was a statement from GG that basically said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it") .
I should point out, again, that I am not advocating a full blown clone of COH...but rather a scaled down version that will just be there to play...maintained...but not updated. (In other words, new material should not be expected). Does that seem like a useless endeavor? The way I see it, it would be just as useless as putting mortar between stones when building a wall. It could well turn out to be the cement that keeps the community together while TPP and VaH move forward in their own directions to give the community NEW and Exciting experiences with two new games Both teams would find a handy community waiting for what they have to offer....giving the players a choice...and yet maintaining that cement that would keep us altogether....whether we chose to go with one, or the other...or CO or DCUO. (Though seriously, Both TPP and VaH would already have an advantage over those other two).
hmm pretty interesting questions contained in that post that I'm curious of the answer myself.
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Sorry, if this is an inside joke that I fail to get, but is it not HaV ?
Oooops...Nope...just a redundant typo LOL
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I really appreciate Dylan making it a point to say that he meant no offense by sharing his opinions. However, this is earth, and people have to be ready to take on every type of feedback accordingly. I've seen a few comments where people have suggested that I or my associates/partner developers haven't played or been truly involved with City of Heroes; this is absurd due to the simple fact that those individuals don't even know me. That's like someone saying, "I never saw you on the Virtue server and I played on that server religiously". People will feel they way they feel, and you have to accept that. I've seen a lot of post where people are speaking as if they are educated on subjects that they have absolutely no idea about, yet I just have to excuse it. I've seen countless posts here where people concern themselves with worries of copyright infringement when that would have to entail the absolutely direct replication of copyright properties; intellectual property and trademark infringement is a completely different elements of the legal enforcement spectrum. Every element of City of Heroes has been borrowed for it's predecessors: tab targeting, hotkeys, character creation, client-to-server communication, specific types of damage, the entire role-playing element, the comic book game theme, the entire MMO aspect, even the majority of its costumes and powers. Research Marvel's attempt at suing Cryptic Studios. Thoroughly read the public documentation and you will see that in an attempt to incite trademark infringement Marvel went as far as to have their legal team created infringing characters and admitted it during the court case; their law team had those statements stricken from the records, however. These claims were supported by trademark laws, mainly a specific "indirect infringement" law that protects companies trademarks from third-party elements of some businesses. In CoH's case, that would be the players. It was also included in that massive Terms of Usage Agreement that I'm sure a lot of people didn't even read -- this is in no way directed towards any specific individual withing these forums, but players in general. A good example would show a company like Activision being held responsible for Blizzards illegal infringement of an EA Games IP in inadvertently. They'd still work together to settle the issue I'm sure, but the law still applies to Activision regardless of whether they were aware. This is something City of Heroes was well aware of when they created City of Heroes.
When I first joined City of Heroes during its beta phase, I remember attempting to put in Batman just to see if the name was taken and I received and invalid name error. However, if the name was taken, I received an error that specified that the name was already in use. My research further showed that they did implement a blocklist, but Marvel took special care to create infringing characters. That alone shows they are actively attempting to take action against anything that potentially threatens their trademarks/intellectual properties. Being a business major, I'm well aware of the laws that apply to cerain elements of a business, and a company must take all measures to defend a trademark and an IP. It's a lot different than a copyright (especially the intricacies of how it's documented), and this is something that can be researched more by anyone curious enough to do some investigating. It's also something you never take someone's "word for". Don't quote me on this because I seem to remember this faintly and I'm not sure who it was, but I believe I remember some highly regarded marketing analyst making comments "on the record" about Marvel "HAVING" to take those action. It wasn't even a matter of winning or losing, but more along the lines of insuring the public that they were close monitoring the operations of potentially infringing properties; even to the point that they would take actions in a case they would surely us. An example of this would be the recent case of Bethesda vs. Mojang. A lot of people viewed it as, "Big bad Bethesda targeting the little ole Mojang studio..." In reality they had no choice, because Mojang could potentially pose a threat to their trademark/IP. So creating any "super hero themed" product should generate the interest and concern of owners of like products. This is something that all teams should be aware of and be thoroughly prepared for. We already have a system used to filter profanity that we would use at the database/storage level to prevent such issues at all costs. I think it would just require a few dedicated staff members or a single dedicated staff member to professional contact each major comic book publisher and ask for a formatted document with a list of all the names of their intellectual properties "on the record". This way we have proof that not only did we make internal efforts to block potentially infringing naming conventions, but that we made an aggressive effort to involve parties that we are most likely to infringe upon.
Another thing I noticed was someone questioning another individual as to what their idea of "hope" was; they also made a note that they meant no offense by their post. No offense taken on my part. However, in my honest opinion (no disrespect or offense intended), feel that each project is currently equal. What more is the other teams' concepts, content, and lore than the ideas that our small gathering has come up with behind the public vale? Ultimately it doesn't matter what ideas, images, or visual content is presented if the game isn't available... or so it appears in the eyes of most consumers and rightfully so. They also went on to talk about interviews and public recognition. Please turn your attention to games like Project D; a project that my company researched for sometime prior to launching our first title into development. The title was a widely popular MMO developed in Korea with a staggering initial budget well into the 8 figured, that had funding pulled towards the middle of development. The project was later cancelled and hasn't resurfaced. It received lots of "GLOBAL" press as well as further investments during the peak of its development. By press I mean: multiple headlines on popularly MMO and standard game sites/news networks, large articles on most globally expansive MMO sites/networks, interviews on MMO sites/networks, and established a massive Youtube presence. The point -- what did that ultimately do for the project? The same applies to assumption/suggestion that "we never released any titles". Between myself and other programmers on the team we've worked on various commercial releases: Everquest, Unreal 2, Asheron's Call, Word, and many other applications/software solutions for a large array of companies both major and independent. So, the entire idea that just because we haven't released a titled under the SilverHelm Studios banner means we don't retain the capacity to complete a title is factually "incorrect". That's like saying, "This group of people programmed a nuclear missle, but because they didn't do it for a particular government, it doesn't count. I'm pulling a quote from a scene in LoE here, so I'm about to sound really medieval. However, I must say this:
"My brothers and sisters, let us not allow our perception be twisted and tangled by the disguises of life, but let us allow ourselves to pier through that mangled imagery to see life in its true form..." -Santel Merdan (Legends of Etherell)
I'm sure people have heard the phrase, "... things are never quite what they seem." Saying such as those did not just arise, they were shared and carried down for ages. I once read an article based on a poll by Computer Digest Magazine that suggested that every 4 minutes a game idea commences development. Compare the amount of games that would be available if all these games led to a public release, to the amount of games available and the results are staggering. Until a game is released in some form to the public, it's often just a figment of their imagination as far as they are concerned. I conclude that we will pick what game we choose to play, regardless of the combative opinions we all have about "what we want". Hell, if I enjoy one of the other projects I'll still play them and contribute both financially and cooperatively to the development. It's not even about how it feels in relations to City of Heroes, but more about "what it represents to me", and that's something that I feel a lot of people here hasn't quite embraced yet. A few of us just loved the game the way it was, it's not that we hate the idea of change. To some of us it just represents more and modifying it too much will ruin that for us. If we could merge one day under a common banner, I believe we'd perform as a more efficient and affective development team. But everyone needs to take into account what could be compromised in the transition as well. Observe many of these post were some people like HaV over TTP, while some like Valiance Online's improved cloning ideals. It still funnels into a pool of wanderers that all seem to want something different. I know members of my supergroup that feel that it just needs to be a super hero MMO made in honor of CoH with no like features. Some feel cloning it would be offensive in a way. While a few of us feel cloning and redefining the aesthetics are the key to rebuilding the city. I guess we'll all just see what happens in the end. As negotiations continue, development continues on all sides.
That's my 2 cents on the latest discussions, I'll be sharing some screens of the UI soon. Thanks for all the interest and sharing of opinions everyone.
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Nostalgia is a cruel thing. We remember fondly cartoons or movies of our past, but when watching them again... did you know the Transformers animation sucked? The point is no matter how good a game is if it's to much like the Original it would trigger nostalgia and comparing the new game to our Memories of City of Heroes filtered through nostalgia it would have no hope at all. At worst we end up with a Superboy-Prime effect where we end up angry that things are so much alike and yet so wrong we end up hating the new game. Even if the new game is good.
Two things strike me as being the heart of City of heroes. Stories that make you want to read and do them over and over, and the community that makes you enjoy helping a new player experience the City for the first time.
This is so true. Any new successor will not be the same and the brain will do what the brain does best in this case (see nostalgia). We will be fortunate if it "feels" anywhere near the same as CoH. I realize lore will be new as well as maps, graphics, audio, etc... I hope that things like tray power activation, travel, and mouse/keys functions are comparable. I will curb nostalgia and hope that key functions of CoH can be realized in any successor so that little "deja vu" moments can be experienced in a positive way. I am a realist, so bring on the successor and may the best team win.
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So if we are ditching COH (and that is exactly what is happening)....what is going to set either project (TPP or HaV) apart from CO and DCUO? And I am not talking game mechanics here. What will it be that encourages people to choose TPP or HaV or both over CO or DCUO?
Let me turn this around on you, because the answer may help us make the game more "CoH" for you than otherwise: Mechanics aside, what was it about CoH that made you choose it over CO or DCUO?
Saying "a place to make a new home" really won't work. We could do that now with CO or DCUO. Why don't we? Because it is COH "with all it's flaws" that keeps us together. (one encouraging thing I have seen was a statement from GG that basically said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it") .
There's ultimately no answer to this; it's a personal thing for each individual player and member of the community. It is a design goal of the Phoenix Project to make something that at least feels familiar to those who made their home in CoH. No, we're not deliberately cloning CoH "with all its flaws," but we are trying very hard to analyze what made CoH's "feel" and take all the good things we can identify, examine them thoroughly for what made them "good," and then emphasize those aspects.
What made CoH a positive, defined experience for its players will thus be there in the Phoenix Project, to the best of our ability to achieve it. It may not have exactly the same creaky floorboard, and the odd join in the ceiling where you used to keep your secret stash of trading cards may be gone, but if that secret stashing place was a feature, we are trying to build in hidden areas people can find to store their stuff, and more of them TO find and make use of.
If that rambling metaphor makes sense, anyway.
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This is so true. Any new successor will not be the same and the brain will do what the brain does best in this case (see nostalgia). We will be fortunate if it "feels" anywhere near the same as CoH. I realize lore will be new as well as maps, graphics, audio, etc... I hope that things like tray power activation, travel, and mouse/keys functions are comparable. I will curb nostalgia and hope that key functions of CoH can be realized in any successor so that little "deja vu" moments can be experienced in a positive way. I am a realist, so bring on the successor and may the best team win.
This hits extremely close to how I feel. I want the general gameplay to feel as close to CoH as legally possible. One last thing I loved the map system in CoH. CO is bad. SWTOR is horrible. DCUO is the least offensive but still not up to par with CoH. The chat system in CoH work s better than the afore mentioned games as well. All in all though I look forward to having a new City to defend, explore, plunder in the future. I'm wishing all of you the best of luck.
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Let me turn this around on you, because the answer may help us make the game more "CoH" for you than otherwise: Mechanics aside, what was it about CoH that made you choose it over CO or DCUO?
Why mechanics aside? What if it was because of the mechanics?
There's ultimately no answer to this; it's a personal thing for each individual player and member of the community. It is a design goal of the Phoenix Project to make something that at least feels familiar to those who made their home in CoH. No, we're not deliberately cloning CoH "with all its flaws," but we are trying very hard to analyze what made CoH's "feel" and take all the good things we can identify, examine them thoroughly for what made them "good," and then emphasize those aspects.
So, besides TPP being developed by former CoH players, which now seems just anecdotical, is there any significant link between TPP and CoH? Any link that should make former CoH players think about TPP differently than when thinking about CO or DCUO or Marvel or even Wildstar? I mean, something tangible not the ethereal "CoH feeling" or "CoH spirit" because that's been already established as personal to each player.
What made CoH a positive, defined experience for its players will thus be there in the Phoenix Project
How do you know that? As you said, it's a personal thing.
I honestly apologize in advance if I sound blunt but I'm genuinely curious about the above and not being English my native language is impairing both my understanding of the subject and also my ability to express my thoughts the way I'd like to.-
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Why mechanics aside? What if it was because of the mechanics?
Because this is the post to which I was replying:
So if we are ditching COH (and that is exactly what is happening)....what is going to set either project (TPP or HaV) apart from CO and DCUO? And I am not talking game mechanics here. What will it be that encourages people to choose TPP or HaV or both over CO or DCUO?
You'll note that he said "and I'm not talking game mechanics here." Therefore, he wants something other than mechanics to harken unto CoH in a way that CO and DCUO do not. I would like to at least be able to analyze whether we're offering something of what he's looking for, and if not, see if we can.
So, besides TPP being developed by former CoH players, which now seems just anecdotical, is there any significant link between TPP and CoH? Any link that should make former CoH players think about TPP differently than when thinking about CO or DCUO or Marvel or even Wildstar? I mean, something tangible not the ethereal "CoH feeling" or "CoH spirit" because that's been already established as personal to each player.
We are taking steps and pains to make the gameplay experience familiar. It won't be identical, but the interface, the way powers are chosen, the way you play the game...these are all things we're working from CoH-style inspiration to create. It's in a thousand little details and how they all fit together; really, I encourage you to come to the MWM forums and read them; ask these questions there, and see what those working on the individual aspects of the project are doing.
Visually, we're going for the level of realism and serious look that CoH had, overall. We are avoiding CO aesthetics, and we're not making DC heroes so it won't be DCUO in that sense, either.
What is the link? It's mostly in that we are veterans of CoH and it is our primary inspiration for how an MMO should be designed.
How do you know that? As you said, it's a personal thing.
I honestly apologize in advance if I sound blunt but I'm genuinely curious about the above and not being English my native language is impairing both my understanding of the subject and also my ability to express my thoughts the way I'd like to.-
It's a bit blunt and negative, but the concerns are legitimate and likely not unique to you. Unfortunately, demanding specifics without having specific questions necessarily gets frustratingly vague answers. There's a lot that is not set in stone, and so giving a pages-long treatis on the plans we have in minute detail will be in some places contradictory and overall a frustrating read.
So the best I can probably do is again encourage you to visit the forums, read around a little, and ask questions about specific elements in the sub-forums. Name things you feel ARE part of the CoH experience and ask how they're being integrated or reflected in the Phoenix Project. It's easier to give thorough answers to specific questions.
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Because this is the post to which I was replying:You'll note that he said "and I'm not talking game mechanics here."
Sorry, what I meant was something along the lines of "what's in for whoever was in CoH mainly because of the mechanics?"
I'm asking because I know a few fellow spaniards who, because of their poor English, don't really enjoy the stories or the lore, for them it's mainly about the game mechanics
It's a bit blunt and negative,
Again, I apologize because I was not trying to. Believe me I rephrased that post (and pretty much every post I write) a few times because, as I said, it's not that easy to translate things the way I meant them.
We've had CoH substitutes that... are not meant to be like CoH, long term CoH players who also developed MMO games then turning to be be neither CoH players nor having any games developed, the perspective of all that joining forces... unfortunately, one can't help wondering, if a CoH substitute is not meant to be CoH plus someone who lied and tried to take advantage of this community is becoming a part of it... where exactly does the CoH community fit in that equation? It's all I'm trying to figure out.
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I know that the Phoenix Project very much draws its volunteers - and therefore its ideas - from the CoH community. We were founded out of this community and we really do care what our community thinks. Without this community, there would be no MWM; without this community, the Phoenix Project won't ever succeed.
Mechanically, we have game designers who are familiar with CoH and how it played, and we're looking at developing our game-play to be familiar to those who played CoH. I won't make promises of identicalness for reasons stated before, but the goal really is to capture the gameplay that people loved. So if there's an aspect of gameplay you want to see in the Phoenix Project, hop on over and let us know! We may already be doing it, or it may spark an idea that makes us smack our foreheads and look into adding it.
Power trays, power selection methods, and even combat flow (we hope!) should provide some nostalgia. There is a whole lot that went into making CoH uniquely itself; again, specific questions are the best way to get specific answers. (I'm not trying to harp on that, but it's just very difficult to answer a broad, general question with anything but a broad, general answer.)
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Even before CoH closed players been posting ideas of Powers/stories/ and mechanics ideas. I remember reading ideas for CoH2 four years ago. Those if I'm not mistaken are being taken into account as well.
From what I read the mechanics are being set up to play the same but have new inner workings. Much like redesigning a sports car. New suspension and such but it's still a sports car. I read more then once the idea is to meet CoH feel as in game play mechanics. A Knockback acts like a Knockback, Tankers get taunt, scrappers can act like insane nuts in scrapper lock. You get to choose Offensive and Defensive powers like CoH did. You can choose non AT power pool powers. Like the first aid powers and travel powers.
That the starting line for TPP not the finishing line. Some of the talk is Advance Power Customization. Like a Fire Blaster type that a mage. Instead of the animation that has him throwing fireballs you can have animation of him casting spells. The fireball the result of the spell. But it's still be a Fire Blaster character and play as one. On top of this new AT types. A range Tanker would be possible.
As said before at this point Everything up for grabs or scrap. There a whole lot of Alpha and Beta testing before launch. We aren't even at Proto Alpha stage. When we speak of the Feel of Coh it's along the lines of the Mechanics. Many folks (Including myself) have stated how CO game play is ... lacking. The Blocking system for example. The few power choices (still having trouble with that).
Every mechanic will be tested hard by the Quality Assurance group. Perhaps like Segev said you should join up and sign up for the QA so you can voice your concerns. The whole point of QA team is to voice the concerns you seem to have. You will be heard because that's the point of that group. (Last time I looked it was also the largest).
I will discontinue my internet connection and unplug my computers donate it to a school if the goal of TPP is not to make sure the game play (As in mechanics) is as fun and engaging as CoH.
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From what I read the mechanics are being set up to play the same but have new inner workings. Much like redesigning a sports car. New suspension and such but it's still a sports car.
A very good analogy. Using a real-world example:
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=atalaytugel.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F05%2Fhist_park_08_cjtb-12.jpg%3Fw%3D450)
Enjoy the Dodge Challenger.
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Is it challenging to dodge?
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Is it challenging to dodge?
Depends on how far the drive has the gas pedal down!
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Is it challenging to dodge?
I just meant how Dodge re-introduced the Challenger, using a retro-styling, even retro-controls. It is a modern car, but its styling cues are solidly grounded in the muscle car era.
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Ooops. Sorry to come into this a bit late...but it looks like Nightmarer has kept up my end for me ;D
Let me see if I can clear some things up.
If you look at my posts you will see an underlying theme...I say a clone and that instantly gets nixed....I have tried a couple of times to compare a clone as the cement that will hold the community together until either/or TPP/HaV are ready to roll out their new endeavors. I do not expect anything playable from either team for at least a few years. I don't want either team to rush it. Take your time, do it right. BUT, if there is NOT something there to bridge what we have lost to what will come....then during that time it takes to develop these new games, all but the most hardcore members of this community will start to drift away.
I know that it would be nice to say that "no...we'll all still be here" but I think we all know that is not realistic.
Once those people drift, they are gone. By the time you DO roll out a TPP or HaV game, you will NOT have anything that sits you apart from CO and DCUO EXCEPT game mechanics. That might be enough...it might not. Sooner or later, COH refugees are going to start plopping money down for these other games (yes, I know some do already...I am talking about those like myself that refuse to pay for another game I cannot play offline as well. - though I HAVE promised myself that while I would try to convince both TPP and HaV to have some offline content, I WOULD give their games a try unless I am totally turned off by the outcome.) These people WILL have made their new homes. Your games will just be two more Super hero games to them and to the rest of the gaming community.
Right now, I do believe there is enough of the COH community still together (and, again, I am not talking just about those here on these boards) that both TPP and HaV would be able to get a good start....the problem is....keeping that community together long enough for you to do your thing. That is what I am trying to accomplish here.
I have seen it said here that it would take just as long to create a clone as to make a completely new game from scratch. I apologize, but I am still not convinced of that. Frankly, I think if you guys can get a new game out in the same amount of time it takes to engineer a clone, then you have probably rushed your new game too much. I would rather you not rush and get it right.
Basically....I am begging you guys to come up with SOMETHING concrete that will act as a bridge between COH and your games...something that will keep the community together besides words. Even if it is helping out whatever is going on with SEGS (which is something I really have to look into). uh...just to be clear, I am NOT asking for ANYONE to do anything illegal (and I damned sure wouldn't ask you to post on here if you WERE...LOL)
I will say this....I saw something on the Justice forum that caused me to write them off right off the bat. (No separation of heroes and villains? Really?)
I am pleased to see what is planned, Segev, though I would like a little clarification on what exactly this "freeform" that has been discussed with TPP is about...from what I have seen, that would be a deal breaker for me.
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BUT, if there is NOT something there to bridge what we have lost to what will come....then during that time it takes to develop these new games, all but the most hardcore members of this community will start to drift away.
I understand what you are getting at here Dylan and I am trying STO and Team Fortress 2 (maybe even Neverwinter); however, I will be one of the hardcore members that jump right back into the successor. Now about that new Dodge Challenger.......
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I am pleased to see what is planned, Segev, though I would like a little clarification on what exactly this "freeform" that has been discussed with TPP is about...from what I have seen, that would be a deal breaker for me.
CoH had a similar "Freeform" system to TPP as well.
We called them Kheldians or Arachnos Soldiers.
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CoH had a similar "Freeform" system to TPP as well.
We called them Kheldians or Arachnos Soldiers.
oh great...I hated them LOL
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oh great...I hated them LOL
And are also easy to not play, yes?
But there are people who did enjoy them. Rather than try to shoehorn what is, when you get down to it, a freeform archetype into some epic storyline, call it what it is, and let the players develop it from where how they wish. It's for some players, not for all.
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CoH had a similar "Freeform" system to TPP as well.
We called them Kheldians or Arachnos Soldiers.
I wouldnt go as far to say that Kheldian or arachnos were freeform. More like a few choices within an AT. Which is really how the rest of the ATs should have been done but that is another time another thread.
Khelds seems like a light version of the multiple build thing in CO.
But yeah, either direction has it's risk, work, times that ya want to put ya fist or cpu through a wall, and times that are happy times, and times when ya want to strangle someone. Ever wonder why it took so long to bring out the redesigned Challenger? Overall, the outside world see the end result, another retro sports car and some remember the concept car. The idea of a new Challenger go as far back as at least late 80s early 90s, but like we are doing now, the question of how to make it like the old Challenger but update. The final product we see is only the end result of thousands of concepts, drawings, tweaks, ideas thrown out, etc. Originally, the interior was supposed to be even more retro and exclusive to the Challenger but at last minute decided to go with the current "company" interior look. Many people was pissed, many thought Chrysler group pulled a switch and bait, but overall, from the looks the car gained success even new people became interested that never knew the Challenger existed decades ago. By Chrysler's standards the Challenger was a success even though they lost a few of the more hardcore people over the interior. About a year ago, there was talks of discontinuing the Challenger because it is approaching the end of the production time but they are not sure how to update the styling while keeping it a Challenger. An idea was thrown around (havent checked on progress) that they might be bringing out a 70s themed Barracuda package and front end look (Although Plymouth enthuse probably will scream murder (even though Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler are usually the sme cars anyways but hey, people get stuck on names) although the famous 70 Cuda shared the same platform when the 70s Challenger). Replacing something that was very good is not very easy as there are some people to this day think that even the Challenger swayed too much from the original. Regardless of what happe ns, there will be people that will say it's not the same or not true to the spirit. Just have tomake a choice to go for greater success while keeping the purpose and theme.
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And are also easy to not play, yes?
But there are people who did enjoy them. Rather than try to shoehorn what is, when you get down to it, a freeform archetype into some epic storyline, call it what it is, and let the players develop it from where how they wish. It's for some players, not for all.
You are right...they were easy to not play LOL. And, if TPP makes it all like those, it will be easy to not play as well :) Now if you are talking about making it like COH was...ie certain types are like the kheldans...but others are like the normal COH ATs..that is a different matter. But if you are doing away with the COH style ATs and making everything like the Kheldans, then you have already gone too far astray for my tastes.
Hey, I understand that you can't please all the people all the time.... :) Just talking from my perspective, I won't pay to play something like that and I won't support the development of a game like that, but I know others will....this is where we get to that personal choice thing Segev was talking about :)
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I should point out that I have been to the MWM forum and seen what has been said about the Freeform AT and it appears there is still a bit of disagreement there. While some are seemingly pushing for CO style freeform (or better), others are using the same arguments I would against freeform. So I guess it is not a done deal yet :)
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There already is an effort in motion to make a hold-over type of thing, here on the Titan Networks. At least, that's my understanding. We're not doing that, though insofar as Titan's people are doing nothing illegal (and I don't think they are, but I'm not part of their projects), we support them in spirit.
The Phoenix Project also is planning to release "mini-game" aspects of the greater game experience as time goes on, starting with - we're planning by the middle of 2014 - a fully-functional character creator.
We are keeping in mind the need to keep the community gelled around something; this is our current goal. We think that trying to rush out a "clone" of CoH would take at least this long, if not longer, so we're better off building things in sequence as they build up into a full game.
As far as "kheldian" style freeform, pushing that direction would push for it as an option, much as kheldians were an option, but you could still play the other ATs. We'll have both available, going down that route. (As Dylan has noted, there's still a lot of discussion on it; our Game Architecture people are working on things, but the particulars of this are not yet to a point where there's anything to 'unveil.' It'd be like asking Chef Ramsey to unveil his newest restaurant's full menu when he's still deciding if it's an Italian or French bistro. Sure, there are a lot of ingredients he could unveil, as there are similarities, but it would only lead to more confusion as the particulars just aren't in place yet.)
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our Game Architecture people are working on things, but the particulars of this are not yet to a point where there's anything to 'unveil.' It'd be like asking Chef Ramsey to unveil his newest restaurant's full menu when he's still deciding if it's an Italian or French bistro. Sure, there are a lot of ingredients he could unveil, as there are similarities, but it would only lead to more confusion as the particulars just aren't in place yet.)
Understood, Segev. Please note that, whether I agree or not which direction any of you go....you ALL still have my respect. (LOL and I am quite aware that my agreement means nada...but hey LOl). Just because I may not like the way things go does not mean others won't and I damned sure won't trying to dissuade people...I will simply state why I don't like it (if I end up not liking it, that is) and leave it at that. And I noted earlier that I would not support a game I did not agree with...by that I meant financially. I do not mean that I will be bad mouthing you LOL. Hell, I can't stand CO but I still have a link to it on my page LOL Think I would do less for TPP? :D
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You are right...they were easy to not play LOL. And, if TPP makes it all like those, it will be easy to not play as well :) Now if you are talking about making it like COH was...ie certain types are like the kheldans...but others are like the normal COH ATs..that is a different matter. But if you are doing away with the COH style ATs and making everything like the Kheldans, then you have already gone too far astray for my tastes.
Hey, I understand that you can't please all the people all the time.... :) Just talking from my perspective, I won't pay to play something like that and I won't support the development of a game like that, but I know others will....this is where we get to that personal choice thing Segev was talking about :)
Absolutely under no circumstances are we getting rid of the regular AT's. Expanding, building upon them, yes, but getting rid of, absolutely not.
As for freeform, that's one of the options on the table. Freeform is at a state of, as I like to call it, "flux." There is talk of it, but the headaches in doing it makes it a low priority at this point. The aim is on the regular AT's.
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As much as I want a bridge as well. I can see the need TPP , HaV, and Justice need to have new flair as well.
Already the community is going to other games. Champions and DC aside others have gone to The Secret World. Neverwinter and Elderscrolls seem to have caught people attention including mine.
In order to get not just our members back together but new members in enough to make the new games self sustaining. Triple so if all three Plan Z operations make it. With out new systems and new means of gaining players we might not get enough to keep any of the games running.
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A freeform power system goes against the comic book genre on a fundamental level - the majority of comic book characters are defined by their power sets, which extends to their names and their outfits.
Bravo, GG, bravo. I couldn't agree more.
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As I have mentioned in other threads, I will most likely be playing the game that is the most like City of Heroes from the standpoint of the actually playstyle. It's not that the lore holds no interest for me, it's just that it is not what made CoX the best game ever for me. They way the characters were built, designed, played, and leveled is important. To me, I want a new game to simply feel like a new zone, not re-design my toons and my favorite powersets. I liked the UI, I liked my power tray, I liked inspirations, I like the invention system and all other different type of enhancement sets, and I DEFINITELY liked the Incarnate system. As long as these can be found (in some form of "incarnation" or another) you will find me in that game.
In fact, it kind of seems odd to me that a group of people who are so passionate about the game, no... the City they lost, but that they would want to see such drastic changes in the way their new game is played. Probably the most glaring aspect is the transition from ATs to freeform. Anyway, just my $0.02.
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As I have mentioned in other threads, I will most likely be playing the game that is the most like City of Heroes from the standpoint of the actually playstyle. It's not that the lore holds no interest for me, it's just that it is not what made CoX the best game ever for me. They way the characters were built, designed, played, and leveled is important. To me, I want a new game to simply feel like a new zone, not re-design my toons and my favorite powersets. I liked the UI, I liked my power tray, I liked inspirations, I like the invention system and all other different type of enhancement sets, and I DEFINITELY liked the Incarnate system. As long as these can be found (in some form of "incarnation" or another) you will find me in that game.
In fact, it kind of seems odd to me that a group of people who are so passionate about the game, no... the City they lost, but that they would want to see such drastic changes in the way their new game is played. Probably the most glaring aspect is the transition from ATs to freeform. Anyway, just my $0.02.
Well, as neither H&V nor TPP have transitioned from ATs to freeform, I am curious who has....
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Probably my fault, downix.
I heard/read some talk else where (probably by freeform enthusiasts) that led me to believe it was a done deal and I shot off my mouth....er...fingers...before getting the facts.My apologes. I should have checked first (don't know why I didn't....unusual for me.)
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I guess we have the freeform concept because we were under the impression TPP was going to be CoH's successor and in that sense, we were (at least I was) very surprised that any freeform talk was not disregarded from the very start or firmly reconducted to be like Kheldians and Arachnos Soldiers since pretty much any other kind of freeform would make it much akin to CO than to CoH.
If memory serves, full freeform was one of CO's biggest selling points.
If freeform is kept as an option and that option means a couple ATs with more power choice flexibility like Kheldians and Arachnos were, that'd be awesome however, if having freeform as an option means whoever wants to stick with regular ATs is free to do so while whoever wants to design, dunno, let's say a Fire Blaster with Granite Armor is also free to do so, then it's a no deal for me since any AT will be subpar on a team of minmaxed optimized clones of whatever freeform powerset combination (who knows, maybe Fire Blasters on Granite Armor).-
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Playing CO with Freeform all my characters are FF. I have to say I often follow the AT set. One of the rare changes is just style not Minmax. Example is some Weaponless MA punching mixed into the Might fist fighting.
I thought of a few stories in comics where a character could be consider having a Freeform AT. Spawn thought a magic based unholy spawn of hell has used Guns.
Batman gained use of a Yellow Ring and in a silver age comic even had flight. Not to mention becoming a Vampire in one of the Cartoons. Game wise we can call these temp powers for he didn't keep them.
Superman also had a reroll into the electric Blue/red superman. Thought we can argue that those are more rerolling then an Freeform AT.
Spiderman with the powers of a spider uses Gadgets. His web slingers are tech base and are the spider tracers. In the cartoon Ultimate Spiderman he had a spiderbike. I think we can class Spiderman as a Free form primary Insect/spider Scrapper with Gadget powers mixed in.
Edited to include ideas of the comic characters.
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I guess we have the freeform concept because we were under the impression TPP was going to be CoH's successor and in that sense, we were (at least I was) very surprised that any freeform talk was not disregarded from the very start or firmly reconducted to be like Kheldians and Arachnos Soldiers since pretty much any other kind of freeform would make it much akin to CO than to CoH.
If memory serves, full freeform was one of CO's biggest selling points.
If freeform is kept as an option and that option means a couple ATs with more power choice flexibility like Kheldians and Arachnos were, that'd be awesome however, if having freeform as an option means whoever wants to stick with regular ATs is free to do so while whoever wants to design, dunno, let's say a Fire Blaster with Granite Armor is also free to do so, then it's a no deal for me since any AT will be subpar on a team of minmaxed optimized clones of whatever freeform powerset combination (who knows, maybe Fire Blasters on Granite Armor).-
Well, a full CO-style freeform is right now due to engine limits if nothing else.
There have been other options discussed, like branching tree freeform (where you get a multiple-choice at a tier level, so instead of taking the snipe you grab a hold) but in none of the designs were you capable of being a Granite with a Nuke.
On the other hand, we do have an AT which combines defense with the Dominator secondary, which has a mix of melee and ranged attacks, but not the most powerful ones from either Fire Melee nor Fire Blast.
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On the other hand, we do have an AT which combines defense with the Dominator secondary, which has a mix of melee and ranged attacks, but not the most powerful ones from either Fire Melee nor Fire Blast.
I would like to put in my request right now for one of those, where the melee attacks are with a sword in one hand, and the ranged attacks are with a gun in the other hand.
Thank you please! :)
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I would like to put in my request right now for one of those, where the melee attacks are with a sword in one hand, and the ranged attacks are with a gun in the other hand.
Thank you please! :)
*puts you in the "Gun-Sword combo" request pile*
This makes an even three dozen requests for this particular configuration.
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*puts you in the "Gun-Sword combo" request pile*
This makes an even three dozen requests for this particular configuration.
The more the merrier! Every request is one more notch toward it happening sooner rather than later :D
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The more the merrier! Every request is one more notch toward it happening sooner rather than later :D
Everyone seems to focus on this combo (defense/Assault) but for me, the *other* tank AT is the exciting one (defense/manipulation), combining defense with some melee attacks *and* lite controls....
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Well, a full CO-style freeform is right now due to engine limits if nothing else.
There have been other options discussed, like branching tree freeform (where you get a multiple-choice at a tier level, so instead of taking the snipe you grab a hold) but in none of the designs were you capable of being a Granite with a Nuke.
On the other hand, we do have an AT which combines defense with the Dominator secondary, which has a mix of melee and ranged attacks, but not the most powerful ones from either Fire Melee nor Fire Blast.
Obviously the Fire Blaster with Granite Armor was just an example. Of course, if you guys feel that most of the playerbase to whom the game is aimed for demand freeform then you guys will have to make freeform at the end of the day business is business.
For me, a freeform game is as far from being a CoH successor as if you had told me that TPP will be a fantasy game with gear system which will make people feel like they were playing CoH, but that's just me.-
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The problem I have with CO is free form is too confusing. If you intimidate a player with character builds odds are they will move back to what they were already playing. Familiarity is key here. The easier it is for a person to grasp how to advance their character the better. CoH worked well because there was a clear road map of what you could do. To capture the community nostalgia needs to be built into not only lore but the game design as well.
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On the CO forum I read of how CO would have been all just Freeform but complaints and (here the insulting part) lack of creativity forced the Devs to make ATs.
I replied that it's not lack of creativity it's lack of skill. Someone can be creative, but stick them in a full Art studio with no skill you might be lucky to get stick figures with genitals.
Same with Freeform builds. Give someone unlimited options but no guidance and you can end up with players with trashy builds. Or if they crunch numbers a Minmax Omega a build picking only the best powers for no logic other then to be a powerhouse. However fun in play for some is to figure out the best options and stats to get that unstoppable monster of a build. Shouldn't they have the right to build powerhouses? Only downside would be Griefters kill stealing or using the Minmax build in PVP where they have an unfair advantage. If they enjoy MinMaxing against PVE then why not?
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Everyone seems to focus on this combo (defense/Assault) but for me, the *other* tank AT is the exciting one (defense/manipulation), combining defense with some melee attacks *and* lite controls....
To be honest, my enthusiasm for a Gun/Blade combo is in the Gun/Blade part. Regarding Defense/Assault vs Defense/Manipulation, I have no preference, they sound equally fun to explore and develop. In fact compared to those two, I think Defense/Melee sounds like the boring option ;)
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...you might be lucky to get stick figures with genitals.
Can I be put in the request file for this feature?
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Can I be put in the request file for this feature?
I'm sure you can find one on Google.... OH MY GOD... yup you can find them on Google.
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To be honest, my enthusiasm for a Gun/Blade combo is in the Gun/Blade part. Regarding Defense/Assault vs Defense/Manipulation, I have no preference, they sound equally fun to explore and develop. In fact compared to those two, I think Defense/Melee sounds like the boring option ;)
It may sound boring, but it is the set with the maximum damage for the Defense/ based sets. So, the others you get more flexibility, at the cost of total dps.
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Obviously the Fire Blaster with Granite Armor was just an example. Of course, if you guys feel that most of the playerbase to whom the game is aimed for demand freeform then you guys will have to make freeform at the end of the day business is business.
For me, a freeform game is as far from being a CoH successor as if you had told me that TPP will be a fantasy game with gear system which will make people feel like they were playing CoH, but that's just me.-
The fact is, there isn't demand for freeform. We have request for some freedom, but not the a la carte approach you find with CO. I strongly feel that CO's approach hamstrung the design. And our engine design won't handle CO-like freeform regardless.
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It may sound boring, but it is the set with the maximum damage for the Defense/ based sets. So, the others you get more flexibility, at the cost of total dps.
And that's called Balance. I like it.
I should clarify though, it doesn't actually sound boring. I'm sure it'll be just as much fun as ever. After all, "A Tanker, by any other name, shall Taunt as sweetly."
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I'm sure you can find one on Google.... OH MY GOD... yup you can find them on Google.
AAAGH MY EYES
(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/WhatHasBeenGoogled_zpsf7507d84.jpg)
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If they enjoy MinMaxing against PVE then why not?
Well.....If this had been available in COH to that degree....you would have had msg like the following going out over LFG: "Lvl 23 team lf members......freeforms need not apply!"
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Well, as neither H&V nor TPP have transitioned from ATs to freeform, I am curious who has....
I have actually heard a few people from the TPP team mention that some of the character building style will borry a few ideas from some of the freeform templates of games. Not that the ATs will be completely abandoned, but that they will be a bit more open to crossing AT roles. Again, it's just what I have heard.
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If they enjoy MinMaxing against PVE then why not?
I enjoy minmaxing, I also love the feeling of overcoming through minmaxing the weaknesses of a particular powerset. See, the good thing about CoH is that it allowed minmaxing to a degree where lots of different minmaxed builds were equally effective while freeform, if not handled correctly, leads to minmaxed clones so, maybe the loss of diversity does not bother you, or neither maybe being outclassed and subpar on a team does, but it annoys me, I refuse to be outclassed by an army of clones.
Anyway, as per Downix post, that kind of freeform is not happening in TPP, in fact, at this stage, nothing that holds the minimum interest for me is happening in TPP. I know there are posts asking to join MWM forums, I did so and checked out a few things, still, nothing there for me for now so not going to bother until such time TPP is a fully accomplished game and by then, who knows, I might have changed my view about freeform, or about MMO's, heck, I might have even found already an MMO of my liking and consider TPP launch as merely anecdotical.-
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I have actually heard a few people from the TPP team mention that some of the character building style will borry a few ideas from some of the freeform templates of games. Not that the ATs will be completely abandoned, but that they will be a bit more open to crossing AT roles. Again, it's just what I have heard.
I think you might be confusing freeform templating with the focus system. Focus is where the crossing can happen, but it is more akin to the difference between a Scrapper, Brute and Stalker. All three are technically the same AT in our system, but there is a focusing system to allow all three playstyles (boss-killer, fury-building, stealth-alpha) from the same base AT.
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I think you might be confusing freeform templating with the focus system. Focus is where the crossing can happen, but it is more akin to the difference between a Scrapper, Brute and Stalker. All three are technically the same AT in our system, but there is a focusing system to allow all three playstyles (boss-killer, fury-building, stealth-alpha) from the same base AT.
I mean, if you guys have already decided on that and have abandoned the 10(12{14}) seperate ATs, then I guess it's just how it's going to be with TPP. I guess I just liked CoX the way it was.
But, I guess my only question is "why?" and for two reasons. (I ask why lot.) 1: If everyone on here that wants to see TF:HM, HaV, TPP, and/or SEGs work out essentially wants get some semblance of our home back, why would you change such a basic thing? I mean, I almost find it a bit insulting. "We had the best game ever! Help us make a new game that will kinda look like it, but different!" And 2: If you start with a base "melee" AT and then can/have to make it into what you want by building it a certain way, then why not just stick with 4 basic melee toons and take the guess work out?
Forgive me. It is not my intent to be expressly argumentative. I am really asking those questions out of pure curiosity.
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I thought of a few stories in comics where a character could be consider having a Freeform AT. Spawn thought a magic based unholy spawn of hell has used Guns.
Batman gained use of a Yellow Ring and in a silver age comic even had flight. Not to mention becoming a Vampire in one of the Cartoons. Game wise we can call these temp powers for he didn't keep them.
Superman also had a reroll into the electric Blue/red superman. Thought we can argue that those are more rerolling then an Freeform AT.
Spiderman with the powers of a spider uses Gadgets. His web slingers are tech base and are the spider tracers. In the cartoon Ultimate Spiderman he had a spiderbike. I think we can class Spiderman as a Free form primary Insect/spider Scrapper with Gadget powers mixed in.
Spiderman's webs were largely used as a travel power. Yeah, they were used offensively in fights, but not nearly as much as his fists. And in some versions (not just the first 3 movies), they were not gadgets, but part of him. Sure, he can shoot short range projectiles, but so can spine scrapps. He can even use it to hold immobilize an opponent like a DM's tendrils.
And Superman Red/Blue were technically two completely different entities from Superman. And while the electric blast they had replaced the heat vision, they retained their other powers. So, not too different from a tank or brute getting "Laser beam eyes." Not to mention, Super Strength has a boulder throw, Hurl.
And the thing that makes Batman so great is the fact that he has EVERY FREAKING TEMP POWER EVER. lol, And none in a limited supply.
However, Spawn... I will give you that. He can go invis, he can shapeshift, he can grapple (and technically mezz) with chains that shoot out nearly 50 yards, he has tons of guns that spawn from his suit, he's tough as hell-nearly undamageable, and is an all around beast. He is the one hero that really spans a LOT of hero ATs.
All in all, through a few in-set powers, epic power pools, patrons power pools, and temps, ranged and melee toons had a few things to choose from to cross over, but their roles were clearly defined, as are most in comic books. Cryptic did their research when they made the game.
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I mean, if you guys have already decided on that and have abandoned the 10(12{14}) seperate ATs, then I guess it's just how it's going to be with TPP. I guess I just liked CoX the way it was.
But, I guess my only question is "why?" and for two reasons. (I ask why lot.) 1: If everyone on here that wants to see TF:HM, HaV, TPP, and/or SEGs work out essentially wants get some semblance of our home back, why would you change such a basic thing? I mean, I almost find it a bit insulting. "We had the best game ever! Help us make a new game that will kinda look like it, but different!" And 2: If you start with a base "melee" AT and then can/have to make it into what you want by building it a certain way, then why not just stick with 4 basic melee toons and take the guess work out?
Forgive me. It is not my intent to be expressly argumentative. I am really asking those questions out of pure curiosity.
We haven't abandoned the AT's, we reorganized them. The problem we found with CoH's AT design was over-complexity, you had three AT's which, mechanically, were the same, Melee/Defense. But by being different AT's, the coding for each was more complex. Your Brute Energy Melee was not the same as the Scrappers, the Tankers, nor the Stalkers. Each one effectively had a unique powerset, all with the same name. Inefficient design, stemming from the original CoH design. Through Powerset proliferation they were addressing that issue, but it was an ugly business behind the scenes.
Rather than deal with the headaches of trying to balance multiple versions of the same power, our model shifted to ways to balance the AT's themselves, internally. You still have your Fury-building melee fighter, your critical strike fighter, your alpha-strike-from-hide fighter, but instead of being three different "AT's" they're all structured under the same base mechanics, and then given focus to optimize them for their individual roles. By doing this, however, it opened up the AT design for more flexibility. We can add roles with greater ease than CoH could. We can add new powersets as well with greater ease. The problem of powerset proliferation is neatly side-stepped.
Your Brute is not gone, neither is your Scrapper nor Stalker. In fact, now you will be able to express them with more fine-tuning to your specific playstyle. While the original CoH design worked, it was inelegant, and ultimately it could not continue much further into the future. There was only so far you could push it before you simply ran out of powersets. This approach, while it may seem like we're abandoning the design, is the best solution we found to keep the classic archetypes without falling into the same trap CoH did.
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There was only so far you could push it before you simply ran out of powersets.
Why?
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Sounds dangerously close to bashing CoH while trying to put over your as of yet nearly completely unmade project. Probably not the best way to win over future players around these parts.
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Why?
Address range. If you want your game to be playable on anything short of a T3 line, you need to keep your address range within a very limited scope. CoH could add up to about 200 powersets in total I was told before it simply ran out of room in the address range. In effect, the client couldn't find them. Think of it like a city street, with addresses along the side. You can only build so many houses before you simply hit the end of the street, no more addresses to hand out. You have a street with 200 mailboxes, and you tell someone to go to the 450'th mailbox, they'll run out of street.
While in theory you could have a larger range, you would then be adding in latency, and hurting your clients performance. The more you have to search through, the longer it takes. And as this is an MMO, this all has to go over the network, which already introduces latency into the equation. You can only have so many powersets before your game will play horribly. The easiest solution for us was to not require having multiple versions of the same set due to AT. It's not the only solution, of course, just the one we chose. Knowing Hero Engine, you'll have to implement a different solution to ours.
While it is easy to go "just add more" that becomes feature creep. You add 5% more powerset, then 8% more costume slot, then 6% more animation.... you've added a sizable chunk more data being streamed between client and server. The more data, the slower it will go. Having worked with massive databases for the healthcare industry, when information had to be at your fingertips in a moments notice, every byte you can shed can often times be the difference between rapid response, and lag-city.
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Sounds dangerously close to bashing CoH while trying to put over your as of yet nearly completely unmade project. Probably not the best way to win over future players around these parts.
I'm not trying to bash anything here, especially not CoH. I'm pointing out how CoH was designed. I could go into the why, and honestly the why makes complete sense once you look at the games history.
The origin of the issue stems all the way back to the original City of Heroes design. There *were* no Archetypes, it was select a primary, select a secondary, and go. The original idea had no intention of powerset proliferation, it was absolutely not needed as one could select any powerset. The Archetype system was bolted on top of this original freeflow power design. To make it work, they needed to "double up" powers which were shared, like invul for both tankers and scrappers. Then came along CoV, with more AT's into the mix, all with their own, unique powersets. There was no need to concern themselves with overlap in AT, nor with powerset mapping space because each AT had unique powers. Over the years, however, things changed, the lines blurred, and eventually they were completely integrated, and powerset proliferation became the de-facto standard. This is part of why the Paragon team was pushing for a CoH2 you realize, so they could design whole systems over. One of the things would be to avoid this issue that would eventually rear its ugly head by designing it with that in mind from the beginning.
When designing, I have to keep this in mind, in order to avoid it rearing its head for us as well. We are learning the lessons of their design, where they did things right (and man, they did a lot of things right) and where there were issues (very short list). That is the wise course, yes, to avoid the pitfalls?
I don't think a lot of us realize how much of CoH's success was due to accidents, not purposeful design. They got it to work, but many times the final form did not even resemble the original idea. But the roots, that original design, remained with CoH right up to the end. An opportunity to redesign the back-end, to closer match the final design, would allow for future growth that the original could not. This is not a critique of CoH, it is acknowledgement of the labor and effort, the blood, sweat and tears the devs put into it over the years. Knowing the challenges, knowing the problems, we can learn from the devs and I hope keep us moving forward.
This does tie back to the "why not just clone it" argument. This is one of those areas where cloning would be problematic. Even the dev's did not know how every system worked (I heard nightmare stories about the base builder) due to the nature of these kinds of projects. People came in, designed a system, moved on, not leaving decent documentation. To clone it, when even those who worked on the code directly didn't know how everything worked, would be neigh impossible. Macro systems, sure, but it would never work *right*, never get the same flair or odd behavior. And ultimately, it was that odd behavior which makes City of Heroes uniquely City of Heroes.
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... Over the years, however, things changed, the lines blurred, and eventually they were completely integrated, and powerset proliferation became the de-facto standard. This is part of why the Paragon team was pushing for a CoH2 you realize, so they could design whole systems over. One of the things would be to avoid this issue that would eventually rear its ugly head by designing it with that in mind from the beginning. ...
...This is not a critique of CoH, it is acknowledgement of the labor and effort, the blood, sweat and tears the devs put into it over the years. Knowing the challenges, knowing the problems, we can learn from the devs and I hope keep us moving forward.
.....And ultimately, it was that odd behavior which makes City of Heroes uniquely City of Heroes.
And herein, I do believe, is the major bone of contention between some of the community and Plan Z.
No, I do not believe that anyone on either team wishes to Dis COH....if they did, they wouldn't be here in the first place.
The difference is...they have moved into Dev mode....before the community is ready. You see....I believe the community is still smarting...still hurt and angry over the closing of COH. And we still have people that are gung ho with Project Hail Mary!...To Find some way to get our game back. Will they succeed? I hope so (especially after seeing what Plan Z is considering) but only time will tell.
I think, to a degree, the view of the people on the Plan Z projects changed when they began to actively work on it.
We see a lot of talk about how much this or that will change....because COH was outdated or, as you said, because COH was patched together over the years....yadayadayada...My suggestion....stop talking about that....at least in the public forums...I would keep most of the "how things" are going to work discussion on the MWM or HaV hidden boards. (uh...I am assuming that HaV has them....I know MwM changed several of their forum boards to hidden from the public.)
You see...talk like that raises red flags. Especially in a community that is not yet ready to start looking at a COH2 until they get the original (or reasonable facsimile thereof) back.
Focus, instead, on how your games are going to be similar to COH...Tell us what you are keeping....not what you are replacing. Don't worry about getting into the Technical jargon all that much. Sure, it sounds impressive...but for most, means absolutely nothing....they hear "we are changing this...." and all the rest becomes just so much noise.
You New Devs are excited.....You have every right to be. But the more I see you guys talk...the more I am convinced that you are focusing more and more on the technical aspects...which is a good thing....except that at the same time, you seem to be moving away from being able to view things from THIS side of the keyboard and mouse...where most of the rest of us are.
When you discuss it, sure...you can get a bit technical (at least so people will know you know what you are talking about ;D) But then switch over and tell us what we are going to be seeing from THIS side. (hmmmm....you may need to get a non-techie type person to act as PR)
We want to be assured that, whatever it is you are doing to the backend, we can SEE COH in the front end. Frankly, I personally get a little miffed when I hear/see COH2 tossed around too much.
Let's lay it out. I lost COH. The chances of getting it back are Slim. So that means most of my hopes lie on TPP and HaV. As a simple player, I could care less about what lies underneath what I see on my screen. I don't want to hear/see how this engine compares to that one or to the one COH had. I want the bottom line. How much is what I am going to see on the screen going to resemble what I saw on the screen when I started COH?
How much is game play....as seen from THIS SIDE of the keyboard, going to resemble COH game play?
Since you guys are dead set against a clone (and no, I am still not convinced ;D But you are decided so I will drop it and just be convinced you are wrong LOL) tell me what changes I can expect from THIS side of the Keyboard. Are we going to have to put up with crappy character creators like CO and DCUO?
In the talks about the supposed freeform thing, I have gotten more useful information from TPP than ever before....because you guys talked a bit about what I would see from this side. And some one (I cannot recall who) said it best when they compared it to what I saw in COH...I would still have my ATs, etc.
I guess the point is....A lot of use want a bit of details of how it is going to be similar to COH...not different (or improved) from COH. Will the artwork be of the same quality? (I don't know about a lot of you...but so far, COH still had the best character graphics of either of the other games....I mean...the DCUO creator is somewhat okay....but you really can't get as in depth with it as you could with COH....(and quite frankly, I am wondering why they go to the effort.....hell, your costume has changed from what you selected by the time you get out of Brainiac's ship.....if you put on the armor you find to keep yourself alive).
Okay, I will quit blathering and sum it up. I think I am seeing part of the difficulty here. You New Devs are seeing things from one side...a lot of the rest of simply players are seeing them from the other side....So I get the feeling that, when we talk, we really aren't talking about the same things.
I can understand the need to upgrade things for a new game rather than purposely dating it by using outdated technology. That's cool but not something that really interests me (unless that new technology means I have to plop down money to buy new equipment to play it) All of that stuff goes on under the surface. I want to know what is going on ON the surface.
I want to know if the artwork will be acceptable. I want to know how my ATs will work, I want to know how level progression will work. Are you going to have something similar to the Epic Powers when toons reach a certain level? Am I going to be able to build a base like in COH? Am I going to be able to free play (ie go street hunting or choose which contacts I work with) or will I be locked into mishes?
(and some may want to know how PvP will work from this side of the Keyboard as well...not me....but others might...so will you have Arenas?) Will there be an AE equivalent? How about a trading house? Are we going to have enhancements like COH? And is my interface going to look as much like COH as possible (quite frankly, that was one of the best user interfaces I have seen.) Will the chat features be as close to COH as possible? (again, one of the best I have seen).
Quite frankly, THAT is what is going to tell the story. When I log in...am I going to see something that says "Home"?
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The more the merrier! Every request is one more notch toward it happening sooner rather than later :D
When you think about it, old-fashioned sea pirates used both swords and pistols, sometimes carrying one of each into battle, so the concept makes perfect sense for a pirate character.
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When you think about it, old-fashioned sea pirates used both swords and pistols, sometimes carrying one of each into battle, so the concept makes perfect sense for a pirate character.
Fair enough, but "old sea pirates" were standard human beings that raped, stole, and pillaged anything that they could take over. We are talking about a game based on Americanized superheroes, of which a large majority have, throughout the comics, definable roles. How many X-Men have primarily ranged attacks and invulnerability? How many were super strong brawlers, but couldn't take a hit?
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Fair enough, but "old sea pirates" were standard human beings that raped, stole, and pillaged anything that they could take over. We are talking about a game based on Americanized superheroes, of which a large majority have, throughout the comics, definable roles. How many X-Men have primarily ranged attacks and invulnerability? How many were super strong brawlers, but couldn't take a hit?
Sounds like a challenge. Okay lets play a game see if we can find characters that could be considered Free form constructs.
So far we have Spawn he has shown powers that range from range attacks to melee with regen. Switched from Melee to chain attacks to Magic to Assault rifle.
I bring up Superman... wait let me explain. Clearly Superman is a Tanker or as Wiki said a Paragon. Super-strength, flight, invulnerability and heat vision. He also has a Controllers power his Ice breath that can halt foes that power is not in the standard Tanker Melee set that Sups normally shows.
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We see a lot of talk about how much this or that will change....because COH was outdated or, as you said, because COH was patched together over the years....yadayadayada...My suggestion....stop talking about that....at least in the public forums...I would keep most of the "how things" are going to work discussion on the MWM or HaV hidden boards. (uh...I am assuming that HaV has them....I know MwM changed several of their forum boards to hidden from the public.)
You see...talk like that raises red flags. Especially in a community that is not yet ready to start looking at a COH2 until they get the original (or reasonable facsimile thereof) back.
Focus, instead, on how your games are going to be similar to COH...Tell us what you are keeping....not what you are replacing. Don't worry about getting into the Technical jargon all that much. Sure, it sounds impressive...but for most, means absolutely nothing....they hear "we are changing this...." and all the rest becomes just so much noise.
I agree to an extent, but I personally DO want to know what is going to be different, and why. Downix gave a great reason as to why they were changing the ATs and I understand. I don't necessarily like it, but I understand a bit better. But, no one wants to see their game change, and no one wants to see a clone/twin/mirror/etc that they are longing for be so different that they have to change the way they play in any way. At least, that's my assumption.
I want to know if the artwork will be acceptable. I want to know how my ATs will work, I want to know how level progression will work. Are you going to have something similar to the Epic Powers when toons reach a certain level? Am I going to be able to build a base like in COH? Am I going to be able to free play (ie go street hunting or choose which contacts I work with) or will I be locked into mishes?
(and some may want to know how PvP will work from this side of the Keyboard as well...not me....but others might...so will you have Arenas?) Will there be an AE equivalent? How about a trading house? Are we going to have enhancements like COH? And is my interface going to look as much like COH as possible (quite frankly, that was one of the best user interfaces I have seen.) Will the chat features be as close to COH as possible? (again, one of the best I have seen).
Quite frankly, THAT is what is going to tell the story. When I log in...am I going to see something that says "Home"?
All great questions and great points. I too want to know how similar it will be, but as I said before, I also want to know what will be different. Knowing what is different is part of know how it's the same. I think most people here that aren't working on the games want it to be as close to the original as possible. And I'm betting, all things being equal, that the most players will go to the one that is.
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I bring up Superman... wait let me explain. Clearly Superman is a Tanker or as Wiki said a Paragon. Super-strength, flight, invulnerability and heat vision. He also has a Controllers power his Ice breath that can halt foes that power is not in the standard Tanker Melee set that Sups normally shows.
I already conceded Spawn as one of the incredibly few exceptions to the rule, so you got that one.
Superman is my specialty. Unfortunately, he is more powerful than an incarnate that has honed all of his skills to beyond perfection. Not to mention he is closer to a brute (with /Regen, /Invuln, and /SR (yes, all three, and maxed out)) since he pushes himself harder the harder the foe is to beat, or the longer the fight goes. As long as he is fighting in sunlight, that is. If not, he runs out of endurance.
However, do not brutes have access to Lazer Beam Eyes (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Energy_Mastery#Laser_Beam_Eyes)? Do not ice tanks have attacks that slow movement and attack rate and even lay a patch? Doesn't fiery melee have Breath of Fire? A short ranged cone attack?
My point is that every CoX AT focuses on a style. Yes, blasters have melee sprinkled across their power sets. Yes, spines scrappers can toss a spine or two. But they all focus on either ranged, or melee. And the melee gets the damage mitigation powersets.
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Fair enough, but "old sea pirates" were standard human beings that raped, stole, and pillaged anything that they could take over. We are talking about a game based on Americanized superheroes, of which a large majority have, throughout the comics, definable roles. How many X-Men have primarily ranged attacks and invulnerability? How many were super strong brawlers, but couldn't take a hit?
I think I found one. A strong brawler with a normal human defensive. http://www.superherodb.com/Darkman/10-1126/ (http://www.superherodb.com/Darkman/10-1126/)
He was brought to a hospital and subjected to a radical treatment in which the nerves to the pain centers of his brain are destroyed. Removing this sensory input gives him increased strength due to adrenal overload and keeps his injuries from incapacitating him, but it also destabilizes his moods and mental state.
Darkman thought Technically he can take a hit, but it's due to him NOT feeling pain. Physically wise he still gets damage (Maybe a form of Willpower?).
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I think I found one. A strong brawler with a normal human defensive. http://www.superherodb.com/Darkman/10-1126/ (http://www.superherodb.com/Darkman/10-1126/)
He was brought to a hospital and subjected to a radical treatment in which the nerves to the pain centers of his brain are destroyed. Removing this sensory input gives him increased strength due to adrenal overload and keeps his injuries from incapacitating him, but it also destabilizes his moods and mental state.
Darkman thought Technically he can take a hit, but it's due to him NOT feeling pain. Physically wise he still gets damage (Maybe a form of Willpower?).
You actually hit the nail on the head. I would say that he kinda had a willpower thing. Pretty much perma Dull Pain. However, he was only a little above the average strength, due to the above average amount of testosterone and adrenaline. His defenses actually outweighed his offensive combat abilities. That, and he's Liam effing Neeson. He does what he wants...
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I'm enjoying this challenge. But let me clear things up I agree with you about the need for ATs. Freeform that CO has I don't like I often pick powers that are redundant because I already have a power that does the same. Or I grab one that doesn't get a boost from the Super Stats I use.
That not the system TPP going with partly because of the Engine doesn't allow it and partly because the majority feel the same for the need of ATs. Way things are looking it be more like the EATs of CoH.
Hmm can we consider Captain Planet being primary a TV character? He seemed to be able to use a wide options of powers including turning his body to pure electricity or Stone. Fire attack as well as wind or ice. Melee and range.
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Reed Richards. Not so much free-form as (I would assume) incredibly difficult to implement in any present game mechanics. Maybe CO could do it without major modifications to existing power mechanics, but i don't know enough about the process to say how.
Or maybe, like me, the devs never really cared for stretchy powers... ;)
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Hmm can we consider Captain Planet being primary a TV character? He seemed to be able to use a wide options of powers including turning his body to pure electricity or Stone. Fire attack as well as wind or ice. Melee and range.
Another good one like Spawn. Though, I almost view CP as a pet since they could only summon him with all their rings. Other than that, he was close to a Superman-like character with the added powers of storm. But, he was built that way for a reason. He was designed as an answer to anything, but was just modeled after a super hero. He is essentially just written in as a quick and easy answer to every problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina). It's a poor literary device, but it works in kids shows. I don't really know if I would put him in same category as the members of JLA, X-Men, Teen Titans, Avengers, etc.
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Reed Richards. Not so much free-form as (I would assume) incredibly difficult to implement in any present game mechanics. Maybe CO could do it without major modifications to existing power mechanics, but i don't know enough about the process to say how.
Or maybe, like me, the devs never really cared for stretchy powers... ;)
I actually like Plastic Man a lot more than Reed. But I would say that neither of them are ranged fighters, mezzmers, or healers/support class. They are physical combatants that have to be physically close to their opponents, even if that means adding 35 feet to their arms. Their bodies are also incredibly durable. Plastic man is nearly indestructible. Impervious to all sorts of damage... well, all but heat. A hot summer sun can mess him up.
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I'm enjoying this challenge. But let me clear things up I agree with you about the need for ATs. Freeform that CO has I don't like I often pick powers that are redundant because I already have a power that does the same. Or I grab one that doesn't get a boost from the Super Stats I use.
Yeah I hear this is a common problem with freeform. But given that with freeform you can pick just about any power, how does one end up with powers that are redunant or grab one that doesnt get a super stat boost without choosing to do so?
Sounds like freeform is confusing people.
On the CO forum I think there is a freeform guide.
Me personally I like the freedom that freeform affords meAlthough usually I stick with concept and what fits with a certain concept for me. But with freeform I can create any concept, way more than with ATs, "another brute that smash with a different outfit that is among the hundreds of other brutes that basically do the same thing."
I would like to see it as an option but if it cant, as it seems complicated and confusing to many, I would totally understand. I guess it worked well for me because it is the freedom I was yearning for in a game for years and finally found a game that offered it. I dont have to choice between the usual scrapper, tank brute balster, dominator/controller, or the unqie to COH MM, with pets each with the lowest hitpoints of any game. In CO I can build a MM (although not like in COX) that also can take a hit and defend themselves. Like I can build one that is the alpha wolf, the meanest toughest baddest that can scrap with the best of them unlike in COX where the third tier pet was pound for pound tougher than the actual MM in many set and MM relegated to mostly range /support.
(cant remember if I said something like this or not) Some say about the OP of freeform on teams with AT I dont see it as much of a problem anymore or less than teaming with IOed purpled out toons. Some say there will be messages like "Forming team Freeform only" or the likes when in reality there was plenty of those messages like that in COX except it was "Teaming forming, must be have IO's." And even more so with the Incarnate stuff that went beyond the in game official rules. So it was already there. If that was an issue then IOs shouldnt have been in the equation and or shouldnt be in the equation with the new game. Ironically I dont ever recall seeing "forming team, freeforms only or freeforms need not apply" in CO. Not saying it doesnt happen, but I just havent seen it.
But as I said, if it cant be supported due to engine, completely understandable or it's not popular enough, understandable it wont be included. But I think the option should be there. Even in CO, anyone can build a regular AT if freeform is not their thing. And I seen some solid ATs seen some weak ones seen some solid freeforms seen some weak ones, seen some solid blasters seen some weak one seen some good tanks seen some weaks one, seen good MMs seen some bad ones seen some good controllers seen some bad ones. It's not the AT/freeform that builds itself it's the player building it. I could say that blasters are weak and not good for solo and some would counter with that they built a blaster that could take down AVs solo. What does that mean? Does that mean I just suck at building blasters? Maybe, maybe people suck at building freeforms. Or is it that the blaster that can solo AVs is an anamoly and shouldnt be used as the example to show that blasters are good for solo. Just as I cant be used as an example that freeforms are easy to build good with right power choices and avoiding redundant powers and powers that does not serve a purpose.
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An opportunity to redesign the back-end, to closer match the final design, would allow for future growth that the original could not.
"Now, Grundy understands TPP.
Now, Grundy likes MWM more.
Now, Grundy is hungry.
Now, Grundy goes to eat tiramisu."
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(cant remember if I said something like this or not) Some say about the OP of freeform on teams with AT I dont see it as much of a problem anymore or less than teaming with IOed purpled out toons. Some say there will be messages like "Forming team Freeform only" or the likes when in reality there was plenty of those messages like that in COX except it was "Teaming forming, must be have IO's." And even more so with the Incarnate stuff that went beyond the in game official rules. So it was already there. If that was an issue then IOs shouldnt have been in the equation and or shouldnt be in the equation with the new game. Ironically I dont ever recall seeing "forming team, freeforms only or freeforms need not apply" in CO. Not saying it doesnt happen, but I just havent seen it.
I'm the one that made the "need not apply comment" :) I understand what you are saying.....though I think we are talking apples and oranges here. The examples you gave (and yes, I did see that too...and thought nothing of it) were due to lvls/abilities gained in game. Often times you would see msgs that claimed "any lvl welcome". But just as often, you would see teams that had their difficulty set so high that it required the team members be maxed out. (Never bothered me...but then I was not one of those who had to max out my 50s. So long as my enhancements were active, I was good...I had no desire to play GOD characters and, believe it or not, I actually enjoyed losing once in a while. One or team wipes had me laughing and ready to try again! if I couldn't lose...there was no sense in playing.)
The difference between teams forming according to lvl and enhancements and teams forming excluding freeforms is the basic character itself. Freeform would allow, as has been noted, people to create "mega" toons. When teamed with regular toons, these "mega" toons would steal the show. If I am on a team, I want to be useful...not just follow a "mega" toon around. If I wanted that, I would just get some one with a 50 to take me through a fire farm...I would sit there and soak up xp....while doing absolutely nothing. (which is why, unless they were friends, I would never join a team more than 5 or 6 lvls higher than my toon....even if they said "all lvls welcome").
I guess another issue would be the complexity of play. Another thing I loved about COH....it was just complex enough to not be boring...but not so complex that I wasn't forced to "geek out" over my toons if I didn't want to. (I know a several people...I won't say a lot of people because I saw more people like me...that were more concerned in creating a mega toon...or making sure they were maxing out their shielding or fretting because they were not doing the percentage of damage they thought they should....I even had one person show me how to bring up a stats window....ugh....)
But most players are not like that. Most players just want to have fun...Most players only do as much as they absolutely had to in order to keep their toons current.
COH gave both extremes (and everyone in between) most of what they wanted...without sacrificing actual game play. In games, one constant I have seen......the more complex the game...the less fun the game.
IF TPP or HaV can create a BALANCED system that allows ATs and Freeforms...without sacrificing playability and establishing hard limits that will prevent "Mega" toons.....I would say go for it. But I don't see that happening.
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You asked very clear questions, you deserve very clear answers.
And herein, I do believe, is the major bone of contention between some of the community and Plan Z.
No, I do not believe that anyone on either team wishes to Dis COH....if they did, they wouldn't be here in the first place.
The difference is...they have moved into Dev mode....before the community is ready. You see....I believe the community is still smarting...still hurt and angry over the closing of COH. And we still have people that are gung ho with Project Hail Mary!...To Find some way to get our game back. Will they succeed? I hope so (especially after seeing what Plan Z is considering) but only time will tell.
Hell, right now if NCSoft came to us (the community) and said "We will license CoH's IP to you right now if you abandon your projects...." heads will be spinning.
I think, to a degree, the view of the people on the Plan Z projects changed when they began to actively work on it.
We see a lot of talk about how much this or that will change....because COH was outdated or, as you said, because COH was patched together over the years....yadayadayada...My suggestion....stop talking about that....at least in the public forums...I would keep most of the "how things" are going to work discussion on the MWM or HaV hidden boards. (uh...I am assuming that HaV has them....I know MwM changed several of their forum boards to hidden from the public.)
You see...talk like that raises red flags. Especially in a community that is not yet ready to start looking at a COH2 until they get the original (or reasonable facsimile thereof) back.
That is partially why we pulled a lot of the discussion off the front page, so it would not be all batted around and cause resentment. But as with all things, they do get out, and many times an incomplete picture forms.
Focus, instead, on how your games are going to be similar to COH...Tell us what you are keeping....not what you are replacing. Don't worry about getting into the Technical jargon all that much. Sure, it sounds impressive...but for most, means absolutely nothing....they hear "we are changing this...." and all the rest becomes just so much noise.
You New Devs are excited.....You have every right to be. But the more I see you guys talk...the more I am convinced that you are focusing more and more on the technical aspects...which is a good thing....except that at the same time, you seem to be moving away from being able to view things from THIS side of the keyboard and mouse...where most of the rest of us are.
When you discuss it, sure...you can get a bit technical (at least so people will know you know what you are talking about ;D) But then switch over and tell us what we are going to be seeing from THIS side. (hmmmm....you may need to get a non-techie type person to act as PR)
We want to be assured that, whatever it is you are doing to the backend, we can SEE COH in the front end. Frankly, I personally get a little miffed when I hear/see COH2 tossed around too much.
Let's lay it out. I lost COH. The chances of getting it back are Slim. So that means most of my hopes lie on TPP and HaV. As a simple player, I could care less about what lies underneath what I see on my screen. I don't want to hear/see how this engine compares to that one or to the one COH had. I want the bottom line. How much is what I am going to see on the screen going to resemble what I saw on the screen when I started COH?
How much is game play....as seen from THIS SIDE of the keyboard, going to resemble COH game play?
Since you guys are dead set against a clone (and no, I am still not convinced ;D But you are decided so I will drop it and just be convinced you are wrong LOL) tell me what changes I can expect from THIS side of the Keyboard. Are we going to have to put up with crappy character creators like CO and DCUO?
A rule when we began was "why reinvent the wheel?" We evaluated everything to see the cleanest way to implement it.
Let me give you an example, you log in, and click "create character." You are presented with "Pick your Role" which gives 6 options, mirroring the "Playstyle" selection from CoH. Once that is selected, you are presented the Archetypes for that role, on a screen we call "Specialization". Our goal is to have at least 3 available for each role by launch. Once that is selected, you get to pick your primary, then secondary powerset. Then you build your costume, name yourself, fill out a biography, then login and begin playing.
In the talks about the supposed freeform thing, I have gotten more useful information from TPP than ever before....because you guys talked a bit about what I would see from this side. And some one (I cannot recall who) said it best when they compared it to what I saw in COH...I would still have my ATs, etc.
I guess the point is....A lot of use want a bit of details of how it is going to be similar to COH...not different (or improved) from COH. Will the artwork be of the same quality? (I don't know about a lot of you...but so far, COH still had the best character graphics of either of the other games....I mean...the DCUO creator is somewhat okay....but you really can't get as in depth with it as you could with COH....(and quite frankly, I am wondering why they go to the effort.....hell, your costume has changed from what you selected by the time you get out of Brainiac's ship.....if you put on the armor you find to keep yourself alive).
Our goal is to keep the quality up. We'd rather have the graphical capability of an upgraded CoH, as if someone brought it to DCUO's quality while retaining CoH's customization and depth.
Okay, I will quit blathering and sum it up. I think I am seeing part of the difficulty here. You New Devs are seeing things from one side...a lot of the rest of simply players are seeing them from the other side....So I get the feeling that, when we talk, we really aren't talking about the same things.
I can understand the need to upgrade things for a new game rather than purposely dating it by using outdated technology. That's cool but not something that really interests me (unless that new technology means I have to plop down money to buy new equipment to play it) All of that stuff goes on under the surface. I want to know what is going on ON the surface.
I want to know if the artwork will be acceptable. I want to know how my ATs will work, I want to know how level progression will work. Are you going to have something similar to the Epic Powers when toons reach a certain level? Am I going to be able to build a base like in COH? Am I going to be able to free play (ie go street hunting or choose which contacts I work with) or will I be locked into mishes?
The familiar AT roles are being kept. We just found ways to add more options is all. We already have Epic's planned out, it's the "Patron Powers" which are more problematic. Bases are already being worked on, although we are developing the base tool to also be used for mission maps, meaning that it will not be orphaned, as it will be a central tool for the developers as well. The dev version will have more options available by default, but the actual tool system will be the same. As for being able to free play, on the Liberty server, I was a founding member of a supergroup "The Street Sweepers." You can guess what we did. I *hate* games where you are shoe-horned into contacts. None of us like those. We loved being able to pick your contacts, and that is exactly what we are planning. We want your hero journey to be yours, without railroading you into the same missions, over and over again. If you want to spend your 1-50 street sweeping, go for it! You want to do it running every mission you can against the Aether Pirates, enjoy! It's your hero, it's your story, we're just trying to give you the tools to tell it.
(and some may want to know how PvP will work from this side of the Keyboard as well...not me....but others might...so will you have Arenas?) Will there be an AE equivalent? How about a trading house? Are we going to have enhancements like COH? And is my interface going to look as much like COH as possible (quite frankly, that was one of the best user interfaces I have seen.) Will the chat features be as close to COH as possible? (again, one of the best I have seen).
PvP is still being developed, but some decisions have been done on it. We will have Arenas, and even thought to add indirect PvP as well. Playtesting will tell us what we're doing right/wrong with PvP, because that is one of the hardest things to get right. We are planning on an AE equivalent, and like the base-builder I mentioned before, it would be a version of the same tools the devs will use. Why create two systems which, basically, do the same job? I do not know how the auction house is going, honestly. I know there has been discussion, but it's not yet hit my radar on the coding-end. And yes, you will be able to improve your powers through direct slotting of what we call "Boosts."
Our UI team has been working hard to strike the right balance for the look and feel. What I have seen is very reminiscent of CoH, but that is one of those things which is very individual. We will be seeking feedback on it shortly.
Quite frankly, THAT is what is going to tell the story. When I log in...am I going to see something that says "Home"?
I hope to, that's what I signed on for. And I know the H&V team feels the same way. We cannot be a complete duplicate, but we're doing our best to be the "New Challenger" or "New Mustang," capturing the flair and feeling while offering a modern system underneath.
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First of all...thanks for the answers...very informative. BUT....
Our goal is to keep the quality up. We'd rather have the graphical capability of an upgraded CoH, as if someone brought it to DCUO's quality while retaining CoH's customization and depth.
Please....Please....do not lower yourselves or COH to either CO or DCUO quality. yeah....DCUO's world looks nice...their toons look okay...from a distance. But do you realize that Character customization in either CO or DCUO are extremely limited when compared to "outdated" COH? Unless there is a trick I have not discovered....all the faces look the same in DCUO. One toon looks just like another. And PLEASE do not do what they do with costumes. I mean seriously. Why go through all the hassle of picking out and customizing (what little you can) if it doesn't mean crap? (in other words...please do not add their stupid stat bonus armor pieces that totally change your toon's looks)
No....I would not look at either CO or DCUO as an example of quality and characterization.....when COH already had them beat when it came to toons. The world...maybe...DCUO does have a good thing there, I will admit. But not the toons.
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IF TPP or HaV can create a BALANCED system that allows ATs and Freeforms...without sacrificing playability and establishing hard limits that will prevent "Mega" toons.....I would say go for it. But I don't see that happening.
Yeah, if it can happen with balance, hell yeah go for it. But if not, completely understandable to leave it out as much as I love it (freeform).
But in reality apples and oranges can be compared. Some people like apples (ATs) some people like oranges (freeforms). For some oranges are too acidic too much of hassle to peel, and burns when get into the eyes. While finding apples more pleasent, lighter taste, more variety of flavors, and easy to eat. While some prefer the juiciness of the oranges, the versitility of the juice, citrus like flavor, and easier transportation without worry about brusing easily. While apples bruise easily, can be mushy for red apples and too tart for green varieties, and the core is a pain in the butt. Apples oranges but both are fruits high in vitamin C and healthy food that is commonly used ot made juice out. :p.
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First of all...thanks for the answers...very informative. BUT....
Please....Please....do not lower yourselves or COH to either CO or DCUO quality. yeah....DCUO's world looks nice...their toons look okay...from a distance. But do you realize that Character customization in either CO or DCUO are extremely limited when compared to "outdated" COH? Unless there is a trick I have not discovered....all the faces look the same in DCUO. One toon looks just like another. And PLEASE do not do what they do with costumes. I mean seriously. Why go through all the hassle of picking out and customizing (what little you can) if it doesn't mean crap? (in other words...please do not add their stupid stat bonus armor pieces that totally change your toon's looks)
No....I would not look at either CO or DCUO as an example of quality and characterization.....when COH already had them beat when it came to toons. The world...maybe...DCUO does have a good thing there, I will admit. But not the toons.
I only meant *rendering* quality. DCUO has much more advanced shaders and model-handling, allowing for finer-detail. I would rather gouge out my eyes than to lower the customization to DCUO's level.
And under no circumstances are we running "gear" where your enhancements change your characters looks.
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Get over to the TPP forum. Its a very good thing to see how something is evolving. Lend your ideas and your concerns. Post on their boards. Personally after looking through their Google Doc I see something that is well thought out and headed in the right direction.
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But in reality apples and oranges can be compared. Some people like apples (ATs) some people like oranges (freeforms). For some oranges are too acidic too much of hassle to peel, and burns when get into the eyes. While finding apples more pleasent, lighter taste, more variety of flavors, and easy to eat. While some prefer the juiciness of the oranges, the versitility of the juice, citrus like flavor, and easier transportation without worry about brusing easily. While apples bruise easily, can be mushy for red apples and too tart for green varieties, and the core is a pain in the butt. Apples oranges but both are fruits high in vitamin C and healthy food that is commonly used ot made juice out. :p.
WOW. I thought I was the only one that argued for the sake of arguing! LOL ;D
(bows to the master)
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I *hate* games where you are shoe-horned into contacts. None of us like those. We loved being able to pick your contacts, and that is exactly what we are planning. We want your hero journey to be yours, without railroading you into the same missions, over and over again. If you want to spend your 1-50 street sweeping, go for it! You want to do it running every mission you can against the Aether Pirates, enjoy! It's your hero, it's your story, we're just trying to give you the tools to tell it.
Again, thank you for the answers. This has given me new hope for BOTH projects.
But (insert stern, unyielding look here), if you guys do not have the 5th Column/Council or a very, very, very close equivalent (meaning just shy of a complete rip-off LOL) I am not going to be happy with you LOL.
Seriously, thanks for the answers...I will stop bugging you guys now......until the next issue arises (looks at watch...waiting)
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Yes must have evil space time traveling 5th Column! Or at least a reasonable facsimile there of!
Thought of another character that can be considered a Freeform.
Rogue. Thought at first she only had the power to absorb powers/energy from others. She later During the Maximum Security miniseries, Rogue absorbed an injured Cadre K girl named Z'Cann. The girl held on longer than necessary, using her mind control to boost the process and because of this (perhaps because she had absorbed a fluid Skrull physiology) Rogue mutated further, gaining the ability to 'recall' the powers of anyone she had ever absorbed before, though she could not control when or which of these powers surfaced. For a short time Rogue also had a Skrull appearance, scanned as though she had Skrull DNA, and had their shapeshifting powers, but these soon faded and she returned to her normal appearance.
Through meditation, Rogue learned how to suppress the random manifestations of most of these abilities, but found herself with Wolverine's claws and healing factor, and Cyclops' optic blasts for a time (she had to wear ruby quartz glasses), while also still retaining her mutant and Ms. Marvel powers.
Later, Sage used her own mutant abilities to 'jump-start' Rogue's power, giving her the control to manifest any ability she had ever absorbed, whenever she wished to. It is generally accepted that after regaining her abilities after X-Treme X-Men, she has lost this ability.
Though Z'Cann was a telepath, Rogue never displayed this power (though she did manifest telepathy, it was with the Phoenix energy form, so it was most likely an echo of Jean Grey's powers).
Thought where the character is now in terms of Powers I don't know, but she clearly showed some Free Form abilities during that miniseries.
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Again, thank you for the answers. This has given me new hope for BOTH projects.
But (insert stern, unyielding look here), if you guys do not have the 5th Column/Council or a very, very, very close equivalent (meaning just shy of a complete rip-off LOL) I am not going to be happy with you LOL.
Seriously, thanks for the answers...I will stop bugging you guys now......until the next issue arises (looks at watch...waiting)
I think you'll like what we have coming there.
Striga was a second home for my main. Nothing like beating up on COBRA rip-offs to blow off steam.
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Not sure where this would be best posted - but my personal must haves for my next game - Power Trays ! Moveable power trays ! Click-able enemies, and lots of power clicking. Re-arranging powers on trays. Why ? CoH was my first mmorph, and it's what made me stay all 8 years. Since CoH closed, the closest thing I've found to satisfy those must haves is SWTOR and Tera. Most will laugh, or think I'm nuts, but it's a deal maker for this one customer. Hadn't seen anyone else mention it (altho my search-fu may be off).
Just in case I've missed one... Are there any other games that use a similar power/power tray setup ? Both SWTOR and Tera would have me really hooked if I could just change my appearance on a whim... but sadly... no free-form costumes like CoH.
(click, click, click)
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I think you'll like what we have coming there.
Striga was a second home for my main. Nothing like beating up on COBRA rip-offs to blow off steam.
One of my toons, Dark Carolyne, was centered on the 5th Column/Council (ie her biography, very reason for existing, stemmed from her hatred of them..obviously she was a Vig.) and I'll probably be putting her in my fan-fiction!
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But (insert stern, unyielding look here), if you guys do not have the 5th Column/Council or a very, very, very close equivalent (meaning just shy of a complete rip-off LOL) I am not going to be happy with you LOL.
The way Nazis are portrayed in comics and pop culture in general makes it quite easy to come very close without legal problems.
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Not sure where this would be best posted - but my personal must haves for my next game - Power Trays ! Moveable power trays ! Click-able enemies, and lots of power clicking. Re-arranging powers on trays. Why ? CoH was my first mmorph, and it's what made me stay all 8 years. Since CoH closed, the closest thing I've found to satisfy those must haves is SWTOR and Tera. Most will laugh, or think I'm nuts, but it's a deal maker for this one customer. Hadn't seen anyone else mention it (altho my search-fu may be off).
Just in case I've missed one... Are there any other games that use a similar power/power tray setup ? Both SWTOR and Tera would have me really hooked if I could just change my appearance on a whim... but sadly... no free-form costumes like CoH.
(click, click, click)
We already have the basic coding work done for 4 power trays in HaV.
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Thought of another character that can be considered a Freeform.
Rogue.
That's easy. She's melee.
If I were to try to fit Rogue into a CoX build, I'd say she would be a DM/Inv scrapper. In her current (and most common) form, she retains the abilities of Ms. Marvel. Super Strength, a decent amount of invulnerability, and flight while still having her own parasitic powers. Like Dark Melee, contact with her skin can damage from more than just the impact of a punch. It can drain too. She can drain "HP" from an opponent to heal herself, make her opponent weaker, and also add to her strength. The fact that she temporarily gains other powers is just that. Temp powers. ;) As I have said before, it's not hard for scrappers, tanks, and brutes to get their hands on a few ranged attacks. Temp powers, epic pools, or incarnate powers, you can get them. But, because of her Ms. Marvel and parasitic powers, she is obviously an up close and hands-on kinda gal.
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Superman is my specialty. Unfortunately, he is more powerful than an incarnate that has honed all of his skills to beyond perfection. Not to mention he is closer to a brute (with /Regen, /Invuln, and /SR (yes, all three, and maxed out))
don't forget super-speed :D
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And PLEASE do not do what they do with costumes. I mean seriously. Why go through all the hassle of picking out and customizing (what little you can) if it doesn't mean crap? (in other words...please do not add their stupid stat bonus armor pieces that totally change your toon's looks)
I thought in DCUO you could "wear" an armor piece and have it NOT be visible, so you got the stats bonus but didn't change your look?
I'd have to check the next time I fire up the game, but I thought that I was doing exactly that with the stuff I was picking up from drops.
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You have to LOCK your look into place. Once look is locked it doesn't change.
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You have to LOCK your look into place. Once look is locked it doesn't change.
And how, pray tell, is that done? LOL
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And how, pray tell, is that done? LOL
By clicking the Lock icon in the style window. It is the one that looks like an open lock.
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From what I have read and understand from reading their forums TPP's version of Freeform is what I would want to play. It doesnt remove AT's it expands their capabilities and lets you build more of what you envision for your character.
You arent even talking a pre alpha anything yet to my knowledge. I hope CoH comes back and I hope TPP, HaV succeeds as well. If you can have 4,672 fantasy MMO's you can have more than ONE Superhero MMO.
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To be fair, more than 2-3. We have CO and DCUO right now, and had CoH/V as well before NCSoft decided they hate making money.
If all the projects succeed, that would put us up to 6.
Given the popularity of superheroes right now, and the fact that cycles of popularity tend to ramp up and down over about 10-15 years, we should be hitting the receding edge of the peak when the Phoenix Project goes live, and THAT might help spur a resurgence of popularity of the genre if we play it right. Even if it doesn't, super-heroes have never stopped having a devoted audience, so 2-6 games supporting playing your own super-powered character should be quite viable.
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don't forget super-speed :D
I was actually referring to his secondaries as a brute, and I left out Will Power. He has an aura existing a fraction of a millimeter above his skin generated by his bio-electric make-up that is nigh impenetrable. If you can get past that, his skin, while as elastic as ours, is millions of times stronger than the toughest steel plate. If you can somehow get past that, as long as no kryptonite is involved, he can fully heal from wounds in a matter of seconds, on par with Wolverine. Not to mention when he is pushed to the limits, he can utterly will his powers to get stronger, and will himself to get tougher.
But yes, he does have super-speed, on par with the Flash's, and this includes Flurry, SS, and Whirlwind. He also has SJ and Flight. Add to the list of equivalent City of Heroes powers: Frost Breath, a ridiculously powerful version of Laser Beam Eyes, all of the Super Strength powers, Martial Arts (Torqasm Rao and Torqasm Vo, Kryptonian hard martial arts), and even souped up leadership pool. The guy is freaking ridiculous.
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I was actually referring to his secondaries as a brute, and I left out Will Power. He has an aura existing a fraction of a millimeter above his skin generated by his bio-electric make-up that is nigh impenetrable. If you can get past that, his skin, while as elastic as ours, is millions of times stronger than the toughest steel plate. If you can somehow get past that, as long as no kryptonite is involved, he can fully heal from wounds in a matter of seconds, on par with Wolverine. Not to mention when he is pushed to the limits, he can utterly will his powers to get stronger, and will himself to get tougher.
But yes, he does have super-speed, on par with the Flash's, and this includes Flurry, SS, and Whirlwind. He also has SJ and Flight. Add to the list of equivalent City of Heroes powers: Frost Breath, a ridiculously powerful version of Laser Beam Eyes, all of the Super Strength powers, Martial Arts (Torqasm Rao and Torqasm Vo, Kryptonian hard martial arts), and even souped up leadership pool. The guy is freaking ridiculous.
We had the "pushed to limits, wills powers to get stronger" in CoH already: Inspirations. That's what Inspirations were, in the end.
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We had the "pushed to limits, wills powers to get stronger" in CoH already: Inspirations. That's what Inspirations were, in the end.
I see what your saying but I don't know if I can agree with that. Inspirations could be used without having to be pushed to the limit. Also, according to the name "inspirations," they were obviously meant to be outside sources of temporary boosts as they caused a person to be inspired by something while, by comparison, will power comes from within. This is not what I was talking about when referring to Superman pushing himself beyond his previous limits to achieve new limits. He does indeed depend on his incredible will to resist certain types of damage (magical and psychic) and to drive his strength and endurance harder.
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I see what your saying but I don't know if I can agree with that. Inspirations could be used without having to be pushed to the limit. Also, according to the name "inspirations," they were obviously meant to be outside sources of temporary boosts as they caused a person to be inspired by something while, by comparison, will power comes from within. This is not what I was talking about when referring to Superman pushing himself beyond his previous limits to achieve new limits. He does indeed depend on his incredible will to resist certain types of damage (magical and psychic) and to drive his strength and endurance harder.
I can be inspired by myself. I can be inspired to work harder because I'm getting beat on (mid-combat Inspiration pop). I can be inspired to put up a huge initial fight (pre-combat Inspiration pop). I can be inspired by a fight that I finished successfully (post-combat Inspiration pop).
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I can be inspired by myself.
Actually, no. The verb "inspire" specifically refers to outside influence. If power, ability, strength, and character come from solely within, it is will power.
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Actually, no. The verb "inspire" specifically refers to outside influence. If power, ability, strength, and character come from solely within, it is will power.
"What did I just do? Goddamn, I'm awesome! Let's do more of that!" Wouldn't really call that willpower. Would definitely call that being inspired by myself/my own actions.
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"What did I just do? Goddamn, I'm awesome! Let's do more of that!" Wouldn't really call that willpower. Would definitely call that being inspired by myself/my own actions.
Doing something cool and trying to do it again? That's not inspiration, that's practicing an accident. Like I said, the definition of inspire specifically denotes an outside force. Besides, if you do something cool unintentionally or accidentally, that's not really a result of your choices and decisions. It's a result of your actions meeting unforeseen forces.
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Of course, many of the actual names given to Inspirations do not fit this idea that they were meant to be outside influences.
And now I feel silly for even posting that, since this has to be one of the more sillier debates here...and that's saying a lot, considering this entire thread.
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Of course, many of the actual names given to Inspirations do not fit this idea that they were meant to be outside influences.
And now I feel silly for even posting that, since this has to be one of the more sillier debates here...and that's saying a lot, considering this entire thread.
Yeah, it may be a bit silly, but nearly every debate involving superheroes is.
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It's just the CoH community's version of Godwin's law - the longer a discussion about CoH powers and abilities goes on for, the more likely it is that Superman will become involved :P
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It's just the CoH community's version of Godwin's law - the longer a discussion about CoH powers and abilities goes on for, the more likely it is that Superman will become involved :P
This coming from a girl who's Avatar looks like Power Girl. Kara Zor-L, or Earth 2's Supergirl counterpart. (It's totally cool though. I actually like Power Girl more than Supergirl.)
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Movement... What was amazing in CoH was movement. Just a thought, but if you build it they will come. If you let me move with amazing grace and lightning speed, I will join you.
From Jim and Rio Justice
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I was actually referring to his secondaries as a brute, and I left out Will Power. He has an aura existing a fraction of a millimeter above his skin generated by his bio-electric make-up that is nigh impenetrable. If you can get past that, his skin, while as elastic as ours, is millions of times stronger than the toughest steel plate. If you can somehow get past that, as long as no kryptonite is involved, he can fully heal from wounds in a matter of seconds, on par with Wolverine. Not to mention when he is pushed to the limits, he can utterly will his powers to get stronger, and will himself to get tougher.
But yes, he does have super-speed, on par with the Flash's, and this includes Flurry, SS, and Whirlwind. He also has SJ and Flight. Add to the list of equivalent City of Heroes powers: Frost Breath, a ridiculously powerful version of Laser Beam Eyes, all of the Super Strength powers, Martial Arts (Torqasm Rao and Torqasm Vo, Kryptonian hard martial arts), and even souped up leadership pool. The guy is freaking ridiculous.
Maybe they ought to change his name from "Superman" to "KitchenSinkMan"? ;D
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Maybe they ought to change his name from "Superman" to "KitchenSinkMan"? ;D
Well, aside from his heat vision and maybe flight, all of his powers could be explained by him having the same abilities as humans but not just 100 times, 1000 times, or even a 1 million times normal, but something almost beyond measurement. While a human can jump so high, he can jump a LOT higher and further. A human can lift between 100-1000 pounds, he can lift a LOT more. A human can blow air out of their lungs, he can blow so much more air that it compresses and becomes extremely cold. A human can see a percentage of the EM spectrum, he can see nearly all of it and much more efficiantly, giving him x-ray vision, microscopic vision, and telescoping vision. A tough person can take a blows that would damage a lot of other things, and then heal from them while Supes can take even heavier blows, and heal even faster. Now consider run speed, intellect, etc. Aside from flight and heat vision, he is basically human but with abilities exponentially higher.
Abilities like flame blasts, telekinesis, teleportation, matter conversion, metal claws sticking out of his hands... That kind of stuff he doesn't have. So, in all actuality, he is basically just what his name in implies. A man that is super. A Superman.
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Actually, most of his really seemingly-random way-too-custom-to-the-plot "super powers" are usually, if you look closely, just applications of super-strength+super-speed (and a typical comic book neglect of the consequences to things being acted on at those speeds, treating them as if they were just being acted on normally but watched with FF on a VCR).
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Actually, most of his really seemingly-random way-too-custom-to-the-plot "super powers" are usually, if you look closely, just applications of super-strength+super-speed (and a typical comic book neglect of the consequences to things being acted on at those speeds, treating them as if they were just being acted on normally but watched with FF on a VCR).
LOL Had a friend who could not stand comic characters that traveled at super-speed, whether flying or running because the comics refused to show the extreme damage such feats would cause :) especially environmental. Actually pitched a fit when I wrote a fan-fic story that detailed the super-speed gimmick used in the Silver age for Supergirl and superboy to travel to the 30th century...made me take the characters out of the Earth's atmosphere before making the attempt.
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In a story I occasionally work on that has nothing to do with CoH or the Phoenix Project, I have a "super-speeder" whose actual power is the ability to warp the relative speed of time for himself. So he slows time down to a snail's pace from his perspective to move "super-fast." Because of differences in perceived velocity, this has very strange effects when it comes to force and impulse/force-transfer.
He sees himself just poking something (firmly) at an inch per second or so. The rest of the world sees his finger moving in at roughly mach 8. Mass is the same in both cases. F=ma, and so the force seen by the object being poked is monumental, and it shatters under the impact. Meanwhile, the character feels something fragile crack, powder, and give way before the lightest of touches.
He learned very quickly to never make time go fast from his perspective. At least, not too fast.
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LOL Had a friend who could not stand comic characters that traveled at super-speed, whether flying or running because the comics refused to show the extreme damage such feats would cause :) especially environmental. Actually pitched a fit when I wrote a fan-fic story that detailed the super-speed gimmick used in the Silver age for Supergirl and superboy to travel to the 30th century...made me take the characters out of the Earth's atmosphere before making the attempt.
I just read a story where the main Mad Scientist complained on this very thing.
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LOL Had a friend who could not stand comic characters that traveled at super-speed, whether flying or running because the comics refused to show the extreme damage such feats would cause :) especially environmental. Actually pitched a fit when I wrote a fan-fic story that detailed the super-speed gimmick used in the Silver age for Supergirl and superboy to travel to the 30th century...made me take the characters out of the Earth's atmosphere before making the attempt.
I know DC does have a way to explain this. The speeders there (Wally West, Bart and Barry Allen, Jay Garrick, and to a lesser extent, Kryptonians like Superman) use what is called the speed force. The Flashes us it as a source of their power that protects their body from the speed and even the environment they are in. The faster they go, the more connected with it they are, thus avoiding things like air friction and sonic booms. Also, since moving at speeds close to light, they can gain nearly infinite energy (according the the theories of relativity) and focus it into a DC trademark move, the Infinite Mass Punch.
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I know DC does have a way to explain this. The speeders there (Wally West, Bart and Barry Allen, Jay Garrick, and to a lesser extent, Kryptonians like Superman) use what is called the speed force. The Flashes us it as a source of their power that protects their body from the speed and even the environment they are in. The faster they go, the more connected with it they are, thus avoiding things like air friction and sonic booms. Also, since moving at speeds close to light, they can gain nearly infinite energy (according the the theories of relativity) and focus it into a DC trademark move, the Infinite Mass Punch.
I love comic book writers for this reason. They went the extra mile to explain the little things that people would question, but in a way that is believable with our science. So much better then them just saying "because we said so"
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Sooo, any updates on the possible merger between the Phoenix Project and Valiance Online?
Has that opportunity passed and this is a dead subject?
Since there was slight thread derailment, I might have missed a post or two.
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Sooo, any updates on the possible merger between the Phoenix Project and Valiance Online?
Has that opportunity passed and this is a dead subject?
Since there was slight thread derailment, I might have missed a post or two.
You haven't missed any posts. Nothing has been posted here by the Valiance guy since doubts were raised.
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You haven't missed any posts. Nothing has been posted here by the Valiance guy since doubts were raised.
Same on the Valiance forums, twitter, and facebook.
Lame.
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The Phoenix Project appreciated Valiance's offer, but determined that it did not meet our technical needs. We are going forward with, after examining Unity and some license changes in the CryENGINE, with Unreal Engine. It gives us the technology and tools we need to produce the kind of game that will do this community justice when they move in to call it their new home.
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Thank you, Aggelakis and Segev.
Edit: WOOT! Now, I'm a Lieutenant [] [] [] .
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We're still here, we've just been gathering a team for the project. We also started building a small zone for the first pre-alpha tests for the game. After the close of negotiations with The Phoenix Project, we started unrestricted progress towards our demo. We made a decision not to do much more talking until we had a video ready to show everyone. I've been researching the topic of CoH successors and I've found quite a few projects in development. Most are currently no more than ideas and suggestions with doesn't really move supporters; this is how it appears to me. Hopefully after our first gameplay trailer, we can show everyone exactly what we are bringing to the table. We also came up with a strong executive plan to help guide us through the preliminary pre-alpha releases. Though some frown on it, we're sticking to our idea of cloning the basic structure of the product and allowing the community to improve upon the product through polls. I'll be very active in the forums soon with updates to the page very soon as well.
Sorry for the delay in replies here, I just found it more important to start doing more walking and less talking. I hope everyone understands.
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I sure do. Looking forward to your videos and your alpha.
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Sorry for the delay in replies here, I just found it more important to start doing more walking and less talking. I hope everyone understands.
I like that attitude! I'm looking forward seeing your progress as well.
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I'm new to the titan forums but I am not new to Coh/Cov. I played both, and would love to hear if someone is planning a server, or something. I am still craving the fun and good times that playing with people on Virtue. I miss that so much. Please keep me in mind if something develops. Thank you and for your consideration. There is no game out there and no group of individuals out there that even comes close to the CoH fans. I miss everyone that I used to game with and hope that there is something coming down the road where we can all 'take to the skies again'.
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SEGS is working on something. http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8011.0/topicseen.html
I don't know anything about that I mostly on the Missing Worlds media's Phoenix Project.
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Greetings All:
Sorry for the long silence, but a lot has transpired since I last posted here. To start, two of the teams within our company recently scored publishers for their titles. With my business partner deployed to Afghanistan on Navy duty, it left me to handle negotiations and legal paperwork; something he normally handles. Following that, we started the finalizing of business arrangements with our new network partners to expand our MMO technology. About of week ago we started to integrate their technology into our servers to begin testing. As they have been building their portion of the technology for around 2 years, there is a lot for my team to take in and start to implement. We do have the game operating live on our servers and will be looking to bring on a few developers for our return to the city soon.
Aside from updating the community as to my recent activities, I was curious as to whether members would be ok testing the client to see that we do indeed have a live and stable MMO core running and operable. I know a lot of members here had concerns about the existence of our technology and our capabilities; those concerns were well acknowledged. There were also a few that questioned my motives and I respect them as well. The last thing the city needs is someone with bad intentions trying to capitalize on what we've all lost. This became a real personal thing to me. As I said, before my younger brother died of brain cancer, it was a game we enjoyed together; it was also the only MMO he ever played. So it means a lot to me to see this project to fruition either with a team or slowly building it by myself.
Before I leave, I'd like to formally ask this community, "Would it be acceptable if I shared a link to the current game client to allow everyone to see the architecture running live on our server?" I ask because there is still a lot of both our content and our partners' content from our other projects still included. Currently, all basic features for our CoH clone (I know some will hate me for calling it that) are in place. Flying and deep swimming code has been started, but hasn't been finished yet. If everyone would rather wait until I can bring more members on to help me remove our content and replace our old art, that is understandable. My goal was really just to show what we are capable of. Unfortunately, both of my friends that initially jumped on board have both decided to become on-lookers. After view a video interview with one of the lead designers of City of Heroes, they felt over whelmed and left. The designer stated that it would take millions of dollars [far more than anything you could acquire on Kickstarter] to create something equivalent to CoH. I understand their reasoning and seeing as I've been a programmer for 18-19 years now, I can agree with the designer; it is rather expensive to pay full-time salaries to members alone. It's a very difficult task to develop an MMO, but I think one of the things they failed to realize is that he described include the commercialization of a MMO title: full salary for 100+ members, licensing of software for the majority of those members, advertising, promotion, server rental costs, server maintenance costs, security costs, etc. As an indie developer, we have the ability to release a game in the pre-alpha or alpha phase, players will play it, and understand that it's a work-in-progress. I am, in no way, trying to compete with the likes of Nexon, NCsoft, gPotato, or Aeria Games. What I am trying to do is to make a great Super Hero experience in honor of the original. Hopefully everyone that really supports this is able to understand that the initial release will not be a full game, but a product hat will feature an advancing/recurring update process. My vision would be to one day, once the title is near completion, set a date and initiate a poll. If everyone votes that it's time to launch it officially, we'll reset everything and call that the start date.
Anyway, sorry to ramble a bit, just really trying to express myself. Please feel free to express your feelings about jumping into the client with me sometime this weekend, so that we can test the continuity of our servers and show our capabilities.
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I'm always willing to try something new.
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+1
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I'd do it.
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+2
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I'm game to give it a shot.
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Ok. I'm in!!
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+4
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Aviticus Gladius: Are you going to provide a DL link here or on the Valiance web site? :D Also, are you looking to do play testing or QA type testing or maybe both?
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TDGeorge, I'll be posting it here and there. Sorry I haven't had time to update the Valiance site, but I will soon. Regarding QA and testers, the plan is to have a team of 1 QA specialist and 3 internal testers during the early phases of development. As I stated in my prior post, we're not trying to compete with the likes of large corporations. Therefore, we won't be enlisting an enormous team as we get things off the ground. Once we release builds, the public will act as both, but our internal specialist will be responsible for up-channeling bugs and inconsistencies to the programmers and designers. I've been trying to remove a bit more of our content and replace some art before I share the link.
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Glad to hear it! I was beginning to think this effort was going by the way-side. Ready & willing to do some testing!! ;)
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Not at all TDGeorge, not at all. As I said before, this will continue as long as there are heroes.
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Would it be possible for you to post some screenshots or maybe even videos?
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Would it be possible for you to post some screenshots or maybe even videos?
In all fairness, only TPP has posted any of those out of the various PlanZ proposals. Valiance here is much newer than the other efforts, so I would not expect them for awhile. But hey, I've been surprised before.
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Thanks for expressing that Downix.
Lightbringer, I made a decision to start removing our content and just keeping a barebone character creation with a small terrain chunk and a few mobs to run around and attach. I didn't want anyone to assume I was attempting to pass off our other product to them. I'm almost done, and only have a few more elements to remove. It will then allow players to log-in, create an account, create a character, enter the persistent server, and attack mobs. It's basic features of MMO gameplay, but I believe it's enough to get a team of artists, writers, coders, and designers behind this to really make some forward progress.
I'll be sending a copy of the client to everyone on here that has given a nod to hoping in and testing.
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I would love to give it a try. Just let me know when and how to log in and I will. Thank you for doing this for us.
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I'd be happy to help with any testing, if you need another warm body.
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@Scalebeast and Damienray, thanks for support me on this. I'm going to make this happen.
I'd also like to say that if anyone knows any interested code with network experience and writers, please have them PM me. Once I strip the current build down a bit more, I'll make a formal post for recruitment. Right now we need to bring on some dedicated devs to get into the architecture soonest (because there is so much to learn) and to start developing characters and story elements. I have a bit more to remove, but I have today off from work so I'll be doing as much as I can.
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Any idea when you will post up a link for testing? ;D We be anxious! ;)
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I should have everything done by tomorrow night. I'm in the U.S. mountain time zone so around 9pm-10pm my time. As soon as it's done I'll PM everyone that has posted requesting access. I know once people get a taste of the capabilities and share their experience, we'll be able to get a lot more support behind the project. More to come.
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I am really looking forward to it. Thank you.
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I had three people ask why I'm supportive of Valiance, when I'm the technical lead of TPP.
Simple, there is enough room for several MMO's. Valiance is going in a different direction, and that's cool. TPP is going in our own direction as well. Different people liked different things from CoH.
But ultimately we are a community, not just a game.
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downix, Amen to that!! ;) Also, each is a bit different from the other two and will offer something unique. So, there is variety among the three, and at the same time a sense of what CoHV was all about (i.e., a community). I played solo 98% of the time, but if needed, I could call for help and someone would chime in.
I will Alpha/Beta test (if called upon to do so) and play all three until their servers are shut down. Hopefully, each will have a mechanism built in that will allow single-player play if the servers are shut down.
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downix, Amen to that!! ;) Also, each is a bit different from the other two and will offer something unique. So, there is variety among the three, and at the same time a sense of what CoHV was all about (i.e., a community). I played solo 98% of the time, but if needed, I could call for help and someone would chime in.
I will Alpha/Beta test (if called upon to do so) and play all three until their servers are shut down. Hopefully, each will have a mechanism built in that will allow single-player play if the servers are shut down.
Well, I don't know what Valiance is doing. I know with TPP we are planning on that. I also know that H&V's engine does not allow for offline play. You can verify for yourself here:
http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Other_FAQ#Does_HeroEngine_support_an_offline_mode.2C_where_players_can_explore_the_game_world_alone.3F (http://hewiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Other_FAQ#Does_HeroEngine_support_an_offline_mode.2C_where_players_can_explore_the_game_world_alone.3F)
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@Scalebeast, I think I've about gutted all that I can without making it unplayable. Currently the architecture uses a system of content streaming so that the client will start off really small and you only download elements that you are required to see. If someone on the map is wearing something you don't have in your client repo, it will load it so that you see them properly. But some people may player in at a certain time or on a certain server and never really need to see a certain amount of customizations. Therefore, there is no real need for them to download a massive client. There are a lot of players that will thumb through the first few customizations and decide they are done and that's the character they want, so we'll definitely be adding a rather large group to the client for starters. If I take anymore out, things won't operate.
@Downix, thanks for continuing to be supportive. I fear that many players have no idea what the product means to a lot of us. I really enjoyed talking with you last night about "the good ole" CoH days, before PvP and the forced balancing stage. A lot of people met their best friends, spouses, through the game; it has literally changed the lives of a lot of its players. Those are the things that made CoH/CoV (even though I wasn't into CoV too much) so much more than a game to me and I'm sure others feel the same way. I'll continue to support you as well man, look forward to running the new architecture with you shortly.
@TDFGeorge, currently our MMO architecture is designed to be easily redirected to an operating server executable. The administrator would need to run the core server .exe on a dedicated machine. Then the admin would need to redirect the database handling to another server machine running MongoDB for data storage. Lastly, the admin would run a barebone build of the Unity physics puppeteer, and it's watch dog counterpart on a third machine. The physics puppeteer simulates Unity's physics while being monitors by the WatchDog, which insures any hack attempts will result in the players being banned. All these could be easily provided in an .exe pre-compiled. It's then a matter of making the domain redirector public within the game client; that's something we'd do on our end. So yea, we'll make provisions for that. Nothing is worse than someone just blinding taking someone's virtual world away from them and leaving them with no way to return to it.
In other news, looks like she's ready except for the fact that she needs mobs added. So, I'm going to get some rest and spring back up and get those mobs added. Then I'll start sharing the client with those who have chimed in. Please remember this is pre-alpha development and all of the art is placeholder.
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No worries AG. I'm mainly looking to give the Toon Box (Character Creator) a thorough once over and do some street sweeping.
BTW, I just checked out the Marvel Beta (ugh, choke). All I can say about that game is I'm glad I'm not paying for it. Just Diablo with Marvel Heroes running around. Can't even make your own toon.
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Um... When did you say you were going to post your sample for testing?
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I was trying to have it up by last night. I laid down to rest for a bit and fell asleep completely haha. Working on it now, having an issue with one of the mobs I've been trying to setting up, so I'm just going to add a few that can't be killed, so we can just test out skills. Give me about an hour from this post to get things done and uploaded. Links are on the way!
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Everyone that asked to jump into the architecture test, please check your PMs, you have a build running live on the server. Please read the full PM so you understand how can and can't be shared and how to present it. I want people to be aware of the genuine nature of what I'm trying to offer here. Next week we will start actively recruiting. We already have 2 concept artist we'll be trying to bring on 2 more. Here is what we'll be looking for next week:
2 Concept Artists
2 Environment Artists
2 Character Artists
2 Writers
4 Coders (2 Network Coder, 1 Client Coder, 1 Hybrid [Cli-Net] Coder)
2 Designer
1 Composer
Our emphasis will be on artist and coders initially. We need to start moving placeholder art and inputting the new art. After that we need to start to update the Character Generator to properly use the new character art.
To those who received the framework builds to test, thanks for volunteering to jump in and test the server/client. If you have a moment please come back and let people know that we are very serious and that we already have a fully operational MMO engine that just needs minimum updates to be super hero ready.
We're also going to be pushing better community management on the Valiance Online site. As I told the new tester in the PM I sent them, I'm an owner of 2 really demanding business, I have a family, so I'm doing the best I can to get the city back up in all the spare time I have. If anyone wants to help with recruiting, or community management, please reach out to me. You can contact me at beatsbyav@gmail.com. More to come soon.
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Had some time to putter around. It's a start. Lots to do still. I was impressed with the LOD handling of the terrain, most games ignore this critical piece until the end.
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I went in and had a look around. It certainly is a good base, a nice jump off point. I did have a problem creating a character, I went to the world and it sent me back to the login screen, only for it to tell me I was already logged in. I'm impressed though, it seems you're onto something here.
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I had completely forgotten about this after you went silent a month or so back.
... I'm excited again. Are there any screenshots or videos?
Is there a Mac version? ... can I test out the Mac version?
ETA: Can I test out a non-Mac version in an attempt to get it running on a Mac?
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Thanks very much Downix and Perfidus, glad the framework performed as designed. Thunder Glove, I just got in from work for the night, so I'm about to sit back and watch some movies with the family and get some sleep. Tomorrow, I'll be rebuilding the server to include some mobs and power abilities. I'll build a Mac version for you. I've tested the original build with people on both Windows, Mac, and Linux simultaneously and it ran fine. Hopefully we don't run into any obstacles in our new run with Valiance. Look for the PM tomorrow.
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Just DL'd the client, logged in and created a character and ran around a bit. I must say, now I'm really confused. I thought this was supposed to be a Superhero MMO, not a Fantasy MMO. Wasn't expecting that. If this is what Valiance Online is about, then, sorry, but I'm not interested. I'll wait for HaV and TPP.
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Just DL'd the client, logged in and created a character and ran around a bit. I must say, now I'm really confused. I thought this was supposed to be a Superhero MMO, not a Fantasy MMO. Wasn't expecting that. If this is what Valiance Online is about, then, sorry, but I'm not interested. I'll wait for HaV and TPP.
This is a technical demo of the technology, turning an engine currently set up as a fantasy MMO into one for superheroes. You are seeing an early step in this process.
TPP is using an engine originally set up for a sci-fi FPS, for instance. Our earliest tests were like this as well, only witha robot main character. Shoot, we still are using the robot for the time being, because we are not rushing the model design.
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Well I logged in to check it out, and so far so good. It's in the early stages still, but he's been clear on that part all along. I'd love to test it out further but it seems my system's onboard video is a little too ghetto to run it effectively; I couldn't even get the camera to turn reliably. From what I did see though, Avi and his team have a good solid start here. I'll definitely be watching its progress. (Although until I get a proper video card I probably won't make a very good tester, sadly... If I can fit one into the budget I'd be happy to jump back in for a deeper look. I'll let you know if I pick one up)
Overall, what I've seen so far is a good beginning. If you're not sure what to think yet, I'd recommend giving it a fair chance.
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I logged in and it has so much promise to it. I was able to move around and see the buildings and landscapes. Its a great start and I am really looking forward to seeing the development of it.
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Unfortunately I did not have as much luck as the others. Logged in and all I could see is what appeared to be some type of "landscape" but all blue & red, and everything was transparent and able to be passed through. Odd.
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Unfortunately I did not have as much luck as the others. Logged in and all I could see is what appeared to be some type of "landscape" but all blue & red, and everything was transparent and able to be passed through. Odd.
Which video card were you using?
And yes, you can run through solid objects at the moment, no bounding boxes have been set up yet I noticed.
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Nvidia GeForce GTX550. Everything up to date.
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Very odd then.
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I am willing to help with the story and writing that. I am also willing to do what ever else I can. My coding ability isn't amazing "basic" stuff no pun intended
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I'd be interested in testing this - a gamer of many sorts so I will go in with an objective viewpoint
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I'd be willing to give you a hand testing, I've done beta testing in a fair few MMOs (Champs, STO, CoH etc). Could also give you a few story ideas if you need them
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One of the things I loved so much about CoX was it's casual-friendly atmosphere and UI. I'm not a gamer by any stretch of the word, and yet I was able to pick it up quite easily and quickly.
Short version: I'd like to help you test Valiance, and if you want to see how friendly your game is to the non-gamers I believe I can give you some useful feedback.
Even shorter version: I've got too much free time since CoX closed. I'd love to help.
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@TDGeorge, Sorry for the confusion. In the message I sent to all the initial testers, I wrote a full 5-7 paragraph description of what exactly was feature and explained that the existing art was only placeholder art from my existing project which will share technology with Valiance Online; nothing in that build (aside from the MMO architecture) will be present in VO. I also shared a link to a 3D asset package I purchased that is being used right now to develop the city of Pendulum. For those that weren't invited to the test, you can view the package here:
https://www.videocopilot.net/products/3d/metropolitan/
This gives us a nice starting point to build the first zone. Once we have the first zone finished, we'll start generating concept art for the other areas. As you can see it already has a nice mega-city look to it. With a few more lights, some metallic surfaces, and some mesh upgrades it can easily fit our futuristic design.
@Downix, Thanks for stepping in and clearing that up. Much appreciation for that.
@Triplash, Thanks for joining the server and testing the current build out. I'm glad you feel it's worth giving a chance.
@Scalebeast, Thanks as well for jumping into the pre-alpha architecture test to give some feedback. Very soon you'll receive a much more updated build with a lot of new features.
@Damienray, I'm not sure what is going on there. Did you extract the entire contents to a folder and run it? Or did you attempt to run the .exe file from within the confines of the .zip file? If so, that could have greatly affected the dynamic asset loading function of the architecture. Let me know either way, so we can see what's causing the issue.
@UrielLocke, Thanks for offering your hand in development. I'll be contacting you this weekend to get you up-to-speed on the current concepts and ideas.
@Hillmm09, Thanks, I added you to the list of future testers.
@WildFire15, Sounds good, I'll give you shout during the next build test.
@Lucretia MacEvil, I have you down for testing of the next build as well. Keep in mind that our game will only be different from CoH in regards to aesthetics. We aren't going to directly clone elements of the game, but the gameplay features, handling, and the game from a design aspect will be closely replicated. So, if you liked the original, it seems only right to assume that you'll enjoy Valiance Online.
In other news, we've started building a team for VO. We now have a few concept artists, a community manager, and a writer. We have a few more applicants to speak with, but of those a few are 3D artists, writers, and designers. We also updated our Facebook and added new concept art for our 2 new artists. Here is a link for those interested:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.510104205715744.1073741825.475904379135727&type=1¬if_t=like
As more development takes place, more information will be shared. Thanks everyone for your ongoing support, very soon we hope to have more in-game screens to share with everyone!
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Spent a lot of my days writing Architect Entertainment arcs for my friends and I. I'd love to be a writer if possible : ). Also about to get my English degree.
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I would also like to be considered for testing.
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Just found out about this project following them all. I would love to test this game out me and my wife have been lost without COX.I would like to be considered for testing =]
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AG: Really sorry for my confusion :P as to what was being shown in the demo, must have had a terrible brain cramp. Looking forward to seeing the first zone with the mega city look.
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When you have that Mac client ready, let me know. I'll download it and (try to) give it a whirl.
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It's been a pretty busy work week so far everyone. Sorry I haven't been able to respond frequently; I've received all your emails and private messages and will respond tomorrow and Friday. I'm finishing up here at work getting ready to shut down the studio and get some rest. I had some time to get a few more elements setup in the test build. It now has an NPC setup that the player can interact with as well as a combat testing mob. I'll connect with the internal testers tomorrow to get build links out. I'm headed off to get some sleep now, but I'll be back on it in the morning; no work tomorrow. I'll share more information as soon as more development takes place.
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I am looking forward to the next stage. Thank you.
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Sorry for the late reply everyone. I've been working with the team grinding out ideas and building one of the starter zones for the game. A lot is going on within the project, so we're all excited. Our new site design has been turned over to a professional site design, we have a community manager, and are speaking with another one soon. They will assist us with conveying information between our development team and the site when we are just too busy developing to step in. We will also be doing weekly new updates and launch new sections of the site following the new update. These sections will be for the dev's blogs, powers and abilities, alignments and corporations, and information. In addition, we have a few writers that will be entering the fray to assist with the further development of story elements, character creation, and history. For those interested in take a look at the visuals, we decided to share a link to a first person walk-through of Pendulum. If you'd like to play please follow this link:
http://shogn.net/gamebuild/Pendulum/Valiance%20Web.html
Please be sparring in regards to the possible inadequecies that you may run into. Seeing as we have been unable to acquire a level design to asset with the structure and development of Pendulum, I was forced to move forward. Therefore, I've put some effort into assisting with it's development. More updates including a public stress test of our server with the actual Valiance build is planned for 2 weeks. We'll keep everyone updated as frequently as we can. If your further interested, follow us on Facebook for the most frequent updates:
http://www.facebook.com/ValianceOnline
For those who have contacted me and haven't received a reply, it's because of this initial grind, my family, and my day job. Rest assure I'll be contacting each of you this week; I took part of the week off. To everyone here thanks for giving Valiance a chance and thanks also for your time and faith in us. Hope to see everyone in game real soon.
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Very impressive. For being the last PlanZ, you have made solid progress.
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Thanks Downix, I really appreciate your support man. We're planning a large stress test in about 2 weeks, hopefully you can run around the city with us if you have time. I'm talking to the lead developers throughout the week to get a solid date for the play test. Trying to get more artists on board as well, but they're doing a great job establishing the game. I'm proud of their hard work and dedicated. I'm happy to be a part of something that means so much to me and my friends.
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Here are some logos 3 of the big players in the world of Valiance:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/947313_518761978183300_393034018_n.jpg)
We'll have more updates soon!
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Hello everyone, and I wish you all well. I have watched this forum since before the shutdown, and now will throw in my two cents from time to time. First post to the forums for me. First post to ANY forum for me. First would like to say a big thank you to all who have made all this possible. Yes, ALL of you. You stalwart unstoppable heroes. Thank you. Very Well Done. Can't wait to join you on ALL the super MMO's we will be using! To Aviticus: wow..good work. Can't wait to see more. Great job! Valiance looks to be a real nice world for all of us. To the rest of you..Again, I say Thank You! You'll hear me say this many times in the near future. I will no longer just watch the forums. I have joined and will add my voice to yours. Seven years I was part of CoX, and I'm not ready to leave. See you all soon.
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Veyr impressive stuff.
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I have watched this forum since before the shutdown, and now will throw in my two cents from time to time. First post to the forums for me. First post to ANY forum for me.
Ooooh! That's a big step. I remember the first time I jumped in and posted to a public forum, I was nervous as all get out hehe. It was over City as well... an entry for a screenshot caption contest Ocho was running, I do believe. I guess that game of ours just has a way of inspiring passion to overcome hesitation.
Welcome to our humble little rebel alliance, Alpha! Looking forward to hearing your opinions on stuff :)
And Aviticus, I just checked out VO's facebook page. ...You're seriously tempting me to pick up that new video card much earlier than I'd planned, so I can jump into the testing too. Lookin' good, my friend, lookin' good! :D
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@Alpha, Greetings and welcome to the boards. Glad to see you making that leap, as Triplash said it's a huge first step that we've all had to take. Can't wait to see you in more conversations!
@JaguarX, Thanks very much, if you like that we hope to blow you mind with the full build. We just finished implementing a system that let's the player scale individual elements of their player without compromising their outfits or the animations. You can now increase the girth of your arms, legs waist, and uniformly scale your overall height and head size. So you can make a player with a thin chest, massive arms and thin legs. Or you can make a tall toon with a thin waist, a huge chest, a huge head, and thin arms. We made a step forward without affecting the true nature of the design.
Another cool things is that I just finished designing a system that has enabled us to create an elastic skill without compromising the players body mesh or the textures. We have added a new elastic power that lets the player land punches, kicks, and other attacks over short distances. Basically it's a Mr. Fantastic ability, it's really cool. The designers are happy with it, so I'm happy with it. It also doesn't deviate for the original CoH standards aside from its appearance.
@Triplash, Glad you like it my friend. If you can jump in and give the town test a walkthrough, you PC should be more than capable of running that. It runs on my 6 year old laptop fine. Let me know how the experience was, if you try it out please.
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Good to hear Aviticus. You started later then the other two projects, but you have the advantage of having Pro developers. The other two teams (TPP, A&V) are learning as they go.
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Good to hear Aviticus. You started later then the other two projects, but you have the advantage of having Pro developers. The other two teams (TPP, A&V) are learning as they go.
TPP has two dozen professional game designers with 18 titles under our belts. While most of the volunteers are learning, we are not all spring chickens.
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That's very cool.downix! I knew you had a large collection of talent on your team, had no idea it was that extensive! And I'm glad..Thanx so much for putting that together...I, along with many,many others, are in your debt. I'm anxiously awaiting to see your work as well. You,sir, are a true hero. Thank you again! Long Live Plan Z!
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@Rotten Luck, each team is very much professional in there own unique aspect. I worked as a contract coder for various major companies and game distributors for the last 18 years and didn't get my formal certificate college education until 4 years ago. The only reason I even did that is because my younger brother that passed on, always said he'd be a shame of me if I didn't get a piece of paper to show my capabilities. Nothing about that paper really changed anything. I mean I learned a few unique elements to coding structure and some "syntactically correct" ways to do somethings. Overall it was nothing that I couldn't have pictured up from a company's coding format document prior to working on code. We all bring a lot to the table, and I'm grateful about that. We do have a lot of coders with decades of experience designing and releasing commercial MMOs, but that's not to say someone with no packaged products or experience in the commercial market can't do the same thing. Until I started working on my own project, I'd been programming games and application for about 13-14 years, but had never programmed anything as largely complicated as an MMO. So I learned a lot by trying things and messing up haha. My hats off to all those fighting to bring the community back together. It's definitely a huge undertaking, but it's that much more possible. It will just take lots of time and dedication, something I believe we all have.
@Downix, You reminded me of my mom with the "Spring Chickens" comment haha. I never knew what the heck a spring chicken was, but I figured it was some kind of newb thing by the way she said it.
@Alpha Series, I'm excited as well. I've actually got to see some really great things from TPP so far. Hopefully they stop holding back and break out more videos and imagery. I know their holding back some goodies over there.... I've seen a few haha.
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That's very cool.downix! I knew you had a large collection of talent on your team, had no idea it was that extensive! And I'm glad..Thanx so much for putting that together...I, along with many,many others, are in your debt. I'm anxiously awaiting to see your work as well. You,sir, are a true hero. Thank you again! Long Live Plan Z!
You should see our old-time chit-chats sometime. Ever seen people discussing the right way to program a Sinclair vs a Commodore 64 vs an apple IIc?
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To downix: seen them talk about it, yes...understood them? not a chance....that was some technospeak in those days only a few really got into,,,I was NOT one of them...my forte and area of expertise has always been the nuts and bolts end of things. Which is why haven't volunteered to be part of any of the plan Z teams..no expertise in programming or coding. Also why you won't get a lot of suggestions from me as to what I'd like to see in the game. If I don't know what it takes to provide a costume piece or power, chances are I won't be asking someone to give it to me unless they ask me to. Besides, all of you have lived COH, so you know what the story is, all the way. I only played one game the past seven years, and it was COH. I've never played any other MMO, and like it so much, have no wish to play anything else besides COH and the Plan Z MMO's. And by the way, Thank you again for makin' it happen,captain.
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You should see our old-time chit-chats sometime. Ever seen people discussing the right way to program a Sinclair vs a Commodore 64 vs an apple IIc?
OK, I haven't looked it up, yet, but is there some Internet Rule that says every forum/BB discussion about coding or programming must eventually mention the C64? (not denying that I've done it)
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I'm old haha. I remember programming in BASIC, PASCAL, and Cobol. Those were the days when programming required so much work. I remember having reference sheets that I used to maintain things down to the very byte! Nowadays, you could have a memory going on for days without restarting and you probably wouldn't even notice anything haha.
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OK, I haven't looked it up, yet, but is there some Internet Rule that says every forum/BB discussion about coding or programming must eventually mention the C64? (not denying that I've done it)
Is that like how any conversation that uses the phrase "when I was your age" must also, by law, contain the phrase "uphill in the snow, both ways"?
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AG: The Unity thingy looked very impressive. Can't wait to see it in-game! Quick question: Will there be any options to select keys for left/right directions instead of the mouse? Using the mouse for LR directions (for me) is a bit unwieldy (some of us are in our 6th decade) :D.
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Is it bad that I learned on Apple Basic, moved to TI Graphing Calculator programming, and now do most of my work in MatLab and LabView? ^^;
(Needless to say, most of my work involves prototyping code, not final product.)
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@TDGeorge, that's one of the things we are changing up with Valiance Online. Instead of using the mouse as a modifier for looking/strafing, the game will always use asdw as it would if you held the mouse-click modifier in most MMOs; freeing up the mouse buttons for combat. In VO, there will be a crosshair that works as the mouse-pointer, as the player hovers it over objects and characters those elements become highlighted. The player can press the f-key to open the interaction menu, which shows interactivity options and/or information about the target. If it is a combatant, they simply press a hotkey or mouse click to attack. Since right-click and left-click are now added to the hotkey bar, you're able to easily and more quickly initiate your most used attacks. This system has been tested a lot recently and seems to work great. The community will decide most definitely though.
@Segev, we all have to start somewhere haha. I've always wanted to research Apple BASIC just to see what underlying difference was between that and IBM-based BASIC. I never really found a reason to go digging, but out of curiosity I will now go do some quick research haha.
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AG: I was mainly referring to movement in regards to using the "Q" & "E" keys for turning left/right.
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Is it bad that I learned on Apple Basic, moved to TI Graphing Calculator programming, and now do most of my work in MatLab and LabView? ^^;
(Needless to say, most of my work involves prototyping code, not final product.)
This made me smile a bit. No, it's not bad. :)
As to the Unity demo, the only control problem I had was turning while moving, but I was doing it on my laptop with the Thinkpad Ultranav (the little red "eraser mouse" in the middle of the keyboard), which probably made it more difficult for myself than it should have. I really loved the I Am Legend feel of it, though. Even on my laptop, it was as immersive as my first time spawning in Atlas Park, only the area was more spacious. What I have not done is explore. I wandered a bit, "walked" up one of the bridge approaches, and looked around from the higher vantage point, but I have not tried to see how "big" the world is. Even if it's only a few "blocks" (the "edge" of the Champions maps is abrupt and far from the edge of what is visible), the feel of immenseness is still impressive.
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@TDGeorge, Ahh ok. That should have covered it then. They are now covered by A & D, and the player now switches between orbit mode and play mode in the event they want to circle around their player.
@Dwturducken, that only represents 1/4 of Pendulum City too. I'm adding cars tonight!
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A Skype conference has just began with the new development group soon to work on our new Super Hero MMORPG. We've planned most of the execution today, and are about to further direct the team. Very soon the structure will be in place and the plan will take action. I'll be sharing more information regarding our plan and actions here soon.
Skype?!
I RP with people from CoH in Skype.
I am also one of those paying Founders for Neverwinter. I have been pulled into SWtOR by my husband. And I only have GW2 because a friend paid for a copy and gave me the key to activate it.
But, of all the things I miss about CoH is the ability to make a hero/villain with the backstory you want and the look you want. Plus the ability to Create and Build and Grow a base of operations.
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@Jendragon, that is great to hear. Our project has launched already and started to garnish great feedback and support. We're are getting ready to begin open public testing soon. You can find more here:
http://valiance.shogn.net
http://www.facebook.com/ValianceOnline
We're hard at work, hope you like what we have to offer so far.
Also, to those who have emailed me about positions amongst the Valiance Online team, I've responded to all of them. I'm now sending messages to those who PM'd me, today. More updates are on the way!
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Our recent Facebook update:
THE UPDATE:
In my frantic move to get the different builds uploaded yesterday, I made a few mistakes, but here is my redemption:
(Windows 32-bit) http://www.shogn.net/gamebuild/Valiance_32-bit.zip
(Windows 64-bit) http://www.shogn.net/gamebuild/Valiance_64-bit.zip
(Mac) http://www.shogn.net/gamebuild/Valiance_Mac.zip
TO INSTALL:
1) Install decompressing software (7-zip is great for Windows users)
2) Extract all the contents to a unique folder
3) Run the executable file.
ISSUES TO NOTE:
- Don't use a password that you use anywhere else. We haven't implemented secure context encryption so a virus or hack can acquire your information as it flows to and from our verification/authentication servers. I hate typing in all caps, so forgive me but, DON'T USE A PASSWORD UNLESS IT'S ONE YOU DON'T MIND LOSING! Thanks you.
- In my failed attempt at UI design I didn't notice some resolutions hide parts of the registration buttons, this will be fixed today. I'll add a scroll bar to the UI frame for those with lower resolutions.
- Also, you need to register in-game as a separete account from your website account. Once we can finance our web coder we'll be able to have someone dedicated to integrating a system that securely passes data to a third party server and then securely between the network account and the game server account.
- Also, all the art aside from the city content is placeholder; the UI, the characters, the toon generator, and a lot of other features. These will be pulled out and updated this weekend through to next week.
- Movement is stiff and we know. We currently implemented something very basic at the moment to get things moving. Next week is completely dedicate to the recreation of the CoH movement system. Trust me that CoH jump is not easy to implement by any standard; hell we may need to tap into the use of our physics server to make it feel as good. I'm working hard and watching many videos to recapture how it feels to jump around, move, and aim.
- I also have to re-enable combat which will make it's way into the next build, with mobs that can be killed. So players will be able to level up and unlock new skills much like CoH.
I'll release more updates and information later today. It also appears the male character is being prepped for it's first outfit now. So players using female characters will experience the first true Valiance player model, with the proper toon creator. Sorry male players, we won't have our model in-game til sometime around the end of next week; maybe a bit later. Also, Linux users I'll have your build up later this weekend.
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Also, the female toon is topless. I have no problem with it, but I know there are some here who might. Forewarned is forearmed. :)
Edit:(For some reason, the "R" key on my laptop is iffy.)
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Also, the female toon is topless. I have no problem with it, but I know there ae some here who might. Forewarned is forearmed. :)
ACK! Boob! How dare you!!! REPENT!! ;D
yeah, what Dwturducken said.
I've been to Europe where some saunas are co-ed. boobs are nothing special to see to me personally.
(update-checking out the stuff out now.)
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I was very disappointed that there was nothing special about the red building in the corner, and I wanted to fly. Neither of those is a criticism. I think this is an amazing proof of concept. It's just that, in a modern, urban environment, my instinct is to want to fly. :)
Also, the walking mechanic is a little bizarre, particularly in the butt area, but I stopped noticing it very quickly.
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Dwturducken, we recently finished teleportation, the next travel power is flight! We won't be working on it for a few weeks as we are focused on finishing our character creator and importing our new characters. While we're doing that, our coders will be improving movement, jumping, and implementing our updated UI. We'll be making large weekly updates, so stay tuned to the page and Facebook for the latest.
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Dwturducken, we recently finished teleportation, the next travel power is flight! We won't be working on it for a few weeks as we are focused on finishing our character creator and importing our new characters. While we're doing that, our coders will be improving movement, jumping, and implementing our updated UI. We'll be making large weekly updates, so stay tuned to the page and Facebook for the latest.
While not directed at me.
I just have to say, awesome.
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I downloaded it and logged in yesterday. I got to say, that it is really awesome. It reminds me of Atlas Park and Skyway combined. The only thing that was distracting (for me) was the nature sounds in the middle of the city. But I do realize that there is still a lot of work to be done to make it complete. So far, Great Job!!!! I appreciate all the work you guys are doing to get us a place to call home again.
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It does look good. Yeah, the bird sounds were a bit overwhelming. Looking forward to updates as they come. Great work !
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Wow..that is great progress. The UI is working so much better. This zone is being developed very quickly. Really well done on getting this all together! Thank you for all your hard work!
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Very impressive. Got in and looked around a bit. Good City layout.
Yeah, I can see that some work still needs to be done on the characters...but hey...it's a pre-alpha version, Ain't it? LOL.
Definitely going to keep my Eyes on this one!
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She isn't actually topless, just very close - it's beyond underwear, just a little patch over the nipples, like a really scant bikini. But from many angles you can't even tell it's there :o
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Our finalized female character and the first outfit is being applied for customizing. Should make it in this weeks build.
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This week, this week, this week! Dammit, just focus on the Time Manip set, I think it's going to be the most immediately useful.
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I just heard about this from a friend. Not sure how I missed seeing this thread, but there you go... Looking forward to see where this goes.
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You're hardly the only one Solaris. Let's just be happy for such a pleasant surprise. These guys are seriously revved, and TPP is moving along nicely as well. It's only right a game like CoH should spawn more than one admirer. There just hasn't been enough varierty in the genre of super hero MMO's till now.
Well there's going to be....
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Is anyone actively funding this op? Saw they posted a fundraiser on their site for 6K to push through to pre-alpha. Don't know if it's legit effort but I was planning to help all the Zs with donations if I could.
PS - not a paid advertiser. Just curious if this is an actively supported endeavor by any of my cox peers.
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Download/Play link is down. I would love to jump in on this. Will there be a working link again soon? I see news for a public stress test. Going to be checking this thread for updates. :)
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This is not their primary location by any means, it's not the best place to watch for them. For updates, you're better off following their Facebook page. For the latest build to download and use, check their site. Links to follow. (the builds linked to earlier on this thread are now old and will no longer work).
https://www.facebook.com/ValianceOnline (https://www.facebook.com/ValianceOnline)
http://valiance.shogn.net/index.php/forum?func=view&catid=11&id=190 (http://valiance.shogn.net/index.php/forum?func=view&catid=11&id=190)
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Is anyone actively funding this op? Saw they posted a fundraiser on their site for 6K to push through to pre-alpha. Don't know if it's legit effort but I was planning to help all the Zs with donations if I could.
PS - not a paid advertiser. Just curious if this is an actively supported endeavor by any of my cox peers.
It is very legit, check out their Facebook page and download their build and see for yourself! Please do help donate. And join the Kickstarter prep drive - TPP have set the date at September 8th and asked us to build up their base before then to ensure a successful campaign. Facebook likes, twitter follows - that sort of thing.
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I think this thread needs to be renamed to Valiance Online so people can actually find it. This is the closest thing we have to getting that COH feeling back, as of now. The progress they are making is incredible. I can't wait for them to be done!
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@TDGeorge, that's one of the things we are changing up with Valiance Online. Instead of using the mouse as a modifier for looking/strafing, the game will always use asdw as it would if you held the mouse-click modifier in most MMOs; freeing up the mouse buttons for combat.
"Always"? We won't be able to re-map the key assignments? I got so used to using Q and E for turning, A and D for strafing, and the mouse for clicking powers in CoH that I re-mapped as many other games to that as I could. Or am I reading this wrong? (It wouldn't surprise me; it's late.) I avoided using the mouse for movement because there was no "level flight" key to restore the toon to horizontal flight when steering with the mouse.
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When I try creating a character, it displays "Status: Creating Character", and stays like that. I've let it run for minutes, several times, and have never gotten past that screen.
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"Always"? We won't be able to re-map the key assignments? I got so used to using Q and E for turning, A and D for strafing, and the mouse for clicking powers in CoH that I re-mapped as many other games to that as I could.
I would also like to have the option to re-map key assignments so that they work the same way they did in CoX.
TL;DR-- I second this.
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I would also like to have the option to re-map key assignments so that they work the same way they did in CoX.
TL;DR-- I second this.
If this is what you consider tl;dr, I would hate to try and decypher a text from you. ;)
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If this is what you consider tl;dr, I would hate to try and decypher a text from you. ;)
The last part of it has her seconding her own statement, so I thought it was a tagline, myself - something automatically added.
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If this is what you consider tl;dr, I would hate to try and decypher a text from you. ;)
...I was trying to make a joke. For some reason, I can only be funny by accident.
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Greetings Everyone:
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this post. I'll be posting an official thread for Valiance Online here next week. We've been grinding out major updates for a new build scheduled for release next week. There is a lot of progress being made, so I'll post update logs to our forums with links on the new Titan forum thread. We are working really hard to release weekly or bi-weekly build updates. We're currently finalizing our game launcher which will auto-update builds to the latest updates. Upon entering the game world, you will see an "updates log" screen that will show you what we've added. Look for a post from us some time next week, and thanks as always for your support.
-Aaron
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Thank you for the update, AG! Very good to hear from you and very well done on your continual progress!
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Just my 2 cents:
It would be nice if a world was created first where we could all be there and chat with each other before all the pretty stuff was done.
A major feature that made CoH unique was the chat system where we could all visit each other.
I would think it would give the designers a way to see how many are interested, the bandwidth requirements, etc. Those that are interested would be hanging around, maybe generate a fair amount of interest ...
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My only concern: It looks like the other games in development for your company are also at the same state as Valiance Online, if not in the planning stages alone. Gaming companies rarely work on a single title without major backing, but indie houses have no rules. All the same, are you sure you're not spreading yourself too thin with Legends of Etherell and Elite Units (both games that you have attributed for yourself as a leading role)? I believe the programming experience is there, but tempered ambitions make for improved confidence. Are you really aiming at three titles at once?
While I did buy into Star Trek Online, if Cryptic tried to develop Champions Online and Star Trek Online from the same planning stage at the same time, I'd feel the same way. (Granted, this game may be an orange that I'm comparing to apples, and certainly not of the same weight or even field.)
Don't get me wrong, I do dig the work ethic-- It's probably your elevator pitch when talking to others about SHOGN... "MMO development meets the Google-esque 'Always Iterate' mindset" (especially on Titan Network: even if we end up with a glorified 3D Superhero Chat Room for a year before combat actually works, we'd get part of our lifestyle back with that alone), and I'm interested in playtesting (how often can you watch a MMORPG get built in front of you?) but all the same I'm still skeptical.
I will keep watching, but I'd like to know more about the roadmap and where things are going before I donate. That's my "FUD" if you want to address it, others may feel differently of course. (I did read the prior posts, and this is the only question I had that isn't answered.)
But don't chalk me up to doomsaying or malice, you have as much of a chance as Missing Worlds or PZ Studios at this stage. City of Heroes isn't my first dance with doom: As a Browncoat, there's been past efforts like these involving my community that I sense will fill my buckets full of joy, but most times, they wind up weighing the same as the air they came with when I bought them. Right now, I'm also watching webOS Nation sputter to a general halt waiting for an open sourcing renaissance that just won't come ...I'm just bein' careful.
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My assumption was that Aaron and his team decided to put the others on hold to do Valiance Online, since he knows we've got a built in fanbase chomping at the bit.
I may be wrong though, and maybe they are trying for three at once.
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AG,
Is the fundraising bar up to date on the Valiance homepage (http://valiance.shogn.net/ (http://valiance.shogn.net/))? There are only 8 days left for your targeted goal and you're only 1/5 the way there. I was out of town for a week and expected it to be higher considering this community raised that much in a day to send the old devs to dinner when they got fired. If it is that number, I got to ask why people here aren't showing the money yet. The pre-alpha is looking good and the updates are accelerating the game forward by leaps and bounds.
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@Tahquitz, that is a great point. To clear the air, Legend of Etherell and Valiance Online both share a parallel development structure. As I add features to Legends of Etherell, I import those elements into Valiance and the same goes for Valiance elements that fit the realm of Legends of Etherell. Both teams are also still in full development cycles (no delays), and both are excelling at a respectable rate given that neither is funded. My company is also responsible for 5 projects in development, each with their own teams and structural hierarchies. The Elite Units team reached the point in when they could resume full control over project development, yet it still remains property of SilverHelm Studios. Both Elite Units and Outlasting the Dead, another game being developed by a team within the SilverHelm collective, now have publishers that are investing in the completion of those titles. I have no hands-on involvement or executive authority over development of these titles. Lastly another team of developers are working on a horror title that is due to appear on SHOGN in 3 months; once again my involvement is limited to business relations alone. My dream has always been to develop a superhero themed MMO and a fantasy themed MMO, both that I enjoy playing. City of Heroes was to me the best a superhero MMO could ever be, so there was no need to even think about another.
With it gone, I've be left with and emptiness, not to mention missing it for the sentimental value it has to me. So with our parallel development system, it's really no different than programming a single game aside from the minimal amount of time it takes to remove and/or apply new code across projects. The designers, writers, artists, and composers of the different projects are doing vastly equivalent to that of their counter-parts on the opposite development team, so really nothing "enormous" is weighing on me. With community managers recently taking over management of sites, social elements, and community involvement for both projects and coders preparing to join Valiance, things are slowly working out exactly as I planned. I just want to be a part of the Valiance experience, I've said that from the beginning. I'm doing what I can to see the team to a great start, and then I'm happy to just be a member of the community; often helping with code and sound effects as need. Last week we brought on Sheri Graner Ray, an ex Sony Online Entertainment employer that has overseen management and operations of several of their MMO projects including Star Wars: Galaxies. We also brought on a few artist that currently work contractually for DC Comics, Marvel Comics, and Dark Horse Comics on board to help with the style and appearance of the game. The projects Senior Writer is also an established author with a few publications to his name. So I'm confident that the Valiance team can hold their own. I'll always support it and do what I can, but I'd never do anything to compromise anything I love. Extending myself too much would do nothing good for either project, so I'm very aware of how I'm managing my time. As you suggested, please continue to observe the project, and watch how progress plays out. Thanks for your support and inquiries.
@Perfidus, thanks for jumping in there and trying to sure your thoughts and opinions.
@Dark Current, we have an incentive going, basically if we meet our funding target of 6,000 US Dollars, we'll enable a special feature of the game that we won't if we don't reach our deadline. This campaign's incentive is the enabling of the Day/Night cycle for the game world. Next campaign, we'll have the community share incentives and vote on the incentives they like the most. Right now, it looks like we won't make it, but we have invested the current acquired sum towards a massive amount of development and assets, so it's been incredibly valuable to the product. We'll keep powering along, things are shaping up well, and I believe once the team releases this first major release, people will really see the products potential and start to gather together to share more information about the game. Thanks for your support, I look forward to seeing you in the city.
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Next campaign, we'll have the community share incentives and vote on the incentives they like the most.
Enabling flight will probably be high on that list, methinks.
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Mm... just been told about this 3rd Project... am I STILL the only one that thinks that more than a single project is wrong? that everybody should put differences (either personal or creative ones) aside and focus on getting the best possible project, instead of wasting effort and resources creating 3 different games at the same time? :gonk: :gonk:
TBH, I was doubting on crowfunding TPP when it was 1 out of 2 projects, but now there's 3, it makes me rethink the whole thing because I feel my bucks can be given for nothing :'( :'( :-[
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Mm... just been told about this 3rd Project... am I STILL the only one that thinks that more than a single project is wrong? that everybody should put differences (either personal or creative ones) aside and focus on getting the best possible project, instead of wasting effort and resources creating 3 different games at the same time? :gonk: :gonk:
TBH, I was doubting on crowfunding TPP when it was 1 out of 2 projects, but now there's 3, it makes me rethink the whole thing because I feel my bucks can be given for nothing :'( :'( :-[
Color or Colour.
I would have preferred one project, but I can see the good in three. Of course there is risk with either way.
With one project, it ends up no go for what ever reason whether people think it's not true to COX spirit or other reasons, then what? Lot of time wasted and still no game.
Three projects, one is bound to get it right and more choices for people to find maybe what they look for in spiritual successor.
Upside for one-One single project to focus on and people could put money to it if they see fit.
DOwnside for three- some people want to support all three but money that could have went to one say $1000 is spit three ways now that is $333, with a lost dollar in there, each.
With thousands of fantasy games, and more on the way, three games of the super hero genre might be a good thing. Or it might be a bad thing in the end.
Sometimes people just cant get along and like the common saying in the COX community, "don't like it? Then leave and make your own." And thus one took up on that offer ad did just that. In order to settle the differences, first that mindset would have to be banished. Nothing is perfect and everything isn't going to be all praise, one agreement. And just because the point is different even not the popular view doesn't mean it's invalid nor the person should not speak on it and just walk if they don't like it. But if that mindset continues, then the community will continue to splinter and those splinters will splinter then the term community will be just another term in the dictionary that no longer applies.
Granted though, it's gotten a lot better since the start, a whole lot better in that regards but still needs a bit polish on taking criticism especially from potential future customers that may or may not be here on this forum. All criticism isn't trolling contrary to COX community popular belief if they are not here in Cohtitan.
There is going to be no special favors out there or people in mass jumping on board. The test of fire will be the same that all games that go through and people will be skeptical just as they are with other games especially indie games, they will ask questions, they will voice concerns, they will give opinion just as many players here been giving their opinion on other games. Although most of the "troll title" slinging didn't come from the TPP devs themselves in that last article about kickstarter plan, but just as some people judge WoW by their community and CO by the community, some people of this community didn't help with the image and might have prematurely made up some people's mind by basically suggesting they have no right to ask questions and should either give money or don't. Very condescending and patronizing. And they might as well not give. I wouldn't and probably many here wouldn't either if they was on the receiving end.
Although that seem to be the habit in the way that people talk to people out there sometimes. They forget that most gamers don't know us anymore than any other gamer group or indie game maker. Just like people even here say they dont play WoW because the attitude of the players, the same rules apply to the upcoming game and their community. Unlike WoW though those games are not established yet so the least we as a community can do is put the best foot forward if we want this to work because if it fails, we cant blame NCSOFT, cant blame "trollers", cant blame some random scapegoat, cant blame Google or Disney or Facebook or Twitter, or My Little Pony. This is up to us to make it either succeed or think we are high and mighty and "how dare anyone question us" and fail.
With three games, they may say screw those people and TPP but they have two more choices left. If it was just one, then that is less players on top of the ones that may feel that TPP didn't capture the true essence of what makes COX to that particular player. They say this is different player ran and care about the customer and gamers. Show them. And talking to those that ask questions or disagree or point something out, or think something could be done better in a condencending way or tone or calling them troll is no better of an action than how corporations already treat people.
As I quoted not long ago. "why would I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants 1 mile away?"
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I THINK I agree with you Jag... but jeeze, break up the text blocks or review or something! That last block's awfully hard to get meaning out of
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I THINK I agree with you Jag... but jeeze, break up the text blocks or review or something! That last block's awfully hard to get meaning out of
sorry. There is supposed to be a space there. Been having issues with the site. Been lagging about two or three sentences behind lately. Only on this site so far.
Working on it. I'm used to reading regulations and codes and fine print. I must remember that not everyone is used to that format in single space size 10-12
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All three are going in slightly different directions. I'm hoping for all three of them to succeed, but they're all doing things I don't like.
TPP might be trying to do too much too soon (72 combinations of primary, secondary, and "specialty" abilities right off the bat, and that's not even counting actual power sets and power pools), rather than starting slowly and adding things in later, and similarly ambitious "experimental" ideas for things like pet sets. Of course, their ambition is a strength as well, as they're trying to surpass CoH rather than just duplicate it, which is a laudable goal, and it's possible they're not actually going to implement all 72 combinations right off the bat, which should simplify matters in getting the game actually out there.
HaV just may have the opposite problem, may be veering too close to copyright infractions by trying to copy CoH too closely (which I personally like, but worry about from a legal perspective) - and some of the the "original" NPCs look dangerously familiar, too (particularly Princess Zandra (http://www.heroes-and-villains.com/phpb/img/princess_zandra.png), who... uh, yeah (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Gd8NBIma-zo/TCqInsDkt3I/AAAAAAAANqI/yrkbbfOEhJc/s640/1239292242753.jpg)). But, again, that attempt to hew close to its inspiration (including outright saying it'll have the system requirements as CoH, which is very important to me) is also its biggest strength, with the promise of a familiar homey game and not having to learn all new mechanics, as long as it doesn't cause NCSoft (and/or DC comics) barreling down on it.
And then VO is a wildcard. It's from actual professional programmers, but ones who don't really have anything to show for all their previous work, and, since they came out of nowhere, I don't know how dedicated they are to the CoH community or how much knowledge they really have of CoH itself (some of those early comments about all characters having a Dodge stat, for example, or a recent topic on their forums about diminishing returns for buffs). Since they're directly copying CoH's classes, they also might have some copyright issues. But they're also the furthest along, thanks to using their own engine and assets from a previously-in-progress fantasy MMO, with a playable early alpha (with Windows and Mac clients!) and two archetypes working (though with only one powerset each), and they've worked on it for months since that early alpha was released. They may easily beat the other two to market.
I'm still rooting for all three, of course (and I've even offered my services to TPP - I can't run HaV's development kit on this old machine, and VO doesn't seem to need the help). I miss CoH more and more every day and, if I can't get the original back, I'm hoping that at least one of those three will fill the void.
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HaV just may have the opposite problem, may be veering too close to copyright infractions by trying to copy CoH too closely (which I personally like, but worry about from a legal perspective) - and some of the the "original" NPCs look dangerously familiar, too (particularly Princess Zandra (http://www.heroes-and-villains.com/phpb/img/princess_zandra.png), who... uh, yeah (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Gd8NBIma-zo/TCqInsDkt3I/AAAAAAAANqI/yrkbbfOEhJc/s640/1239292242753.jpg)).
I promise you, Princess Zandra is not so close to WW that it would be an issue (your example illustration isn't even any of the standard implementations of WW) -- There are a dozen pastiches that are significantly closer to WW out there in comics, games, etc. And although DC did shut down Captain Marvel in the 1950's as a violation of Superman's trademark/copyright, that ship has so long sailed it is now a sunken reef (Marvel's Hyperion, Astro City's Samaritan, Alan Moore's Supreme, Mutants and Mastermind's Centurion... just for starters)
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Let's take a step back and consider how we define a "win," here. I don't expect any of the games to be a gang-busters success. I hope they all do, but it's a big market, out there. We have the advantage of buzz, and it's actually building. Other games' official forums have threads about it, as an overall topic.
Even one of the three projects coming to fruition and being commercially self-sustaining is all it takes to show that it can be done. Maybe you can't support all three on the first round of "Kickstarters." I know I probably can't. I believe they are, whether by design or happenstance, staggering the first round, so that may mitigate the financial "pain" somewhat. I fully expect that some of us have "chosen sides" to some degree, and that's OK, too, in its own right.
More projects means more chances that one, at least, will work. That's all it takes.
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Let's take a step back and consider how we define a "win," here. I don't expect any of the games to be a gang-busters success. I hope they all do, but it's a big market, out there. We have the advantage of buzz, and it's actually building. Other games' official forums have threads about it, as an overall topic.
Even one of the three projects coming to fruition and being commercially self-sustaining is all it takes to show that it can be done. Maybe you can't support all three on the first round of "Kickstarters." I know I probably can't. I believe they are, whether by design or happenstance, staggering the first round, so that may mitigate the financial "pain" somewhat. I fully expect that some of us have "chosen sides" to some degree, and that's OK, too, in its own right.
More projects means more chances that one, at least, will work. That's all it takes.
Yup but a basketball game could be won in theory with a score of 1.
Eventually the fanfare of activism and getting back at "the man" will wear off and we'll have "a game". If it was aimed to be bare minimum only to show that crowd of players can merely build a game, it will show in the craftmanship and not good for long run even if the code is publically released. While some publically released code have been picked up there are thousands if not millions of game codes that are never picked up even though it's free because it was viewed as a mediocre game that is not even worth the bother of dealing with.
Large corporates already know people can build games. They hire people to do just that.
Yes, merely getting the game out there is success, great success. But should strive for more if the opportunity is there. Player made games come and go by the dozens each day. Some with major press release and then fade into memory when the chips are down and it dont deliver. One of Corporate's major tools to get people to play their game is that they have people believeing they have the funding and the know how to build "epic" games with the budget to support it although in many cases that is true and nto true. True they have the budget untrue in that they sometimes dont use their money for some games. Just remember dotn stop at merely getting the game out and sitting back as success if there can be more. Then that would be a failure and another way corporate could say "See? They can build a game but they cant build a highly successful game like we can. The game world need us or most games would be small time barely make enough to feed the staff Ramen Noodles."
Me personally I eventually dont want to have to choose between corprate large many players game but dont understand the players and small player devs and the people that run the show actually play their own game but might see someone passing through, good luck meeting someone new, "uhm I'm stuck and they dont have tech support", small indie game.
Now if all the success can only go as far as relasing the game then yes, that is a major success but at the expense of it not showing what corporate and players didnt already know was feasible. If it can go further but it's stopped at merely releasing a game, then that would be utter failure. AKA, dont stop, go as far as possible even if it reach success. That was the folly of COX. Everybody thought everything was A-OK and didnt think anymore marketing or getting the word out was needed, until it was too late. Dont make the same mistake twice. Even with success, want and strive for more success.
A person could be satisfied with a min wage job sweeping floors. And if that is the extent of their desire then they have achieved success greatly. If they can and want more but stop at min wage job then they are failure. Each choice is still a slave to cause and effect, actions and consequences.
And this goes for all three projects.
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All three are going in slightly different directions. I'm hoping for all three of them to succeed, but they're all doing things I don't like.
TPP might be trying to do too much too soon (72 combinations of primary, secondary, and "specialty" abilities right off the bat, and that's not even counting actual power sets and power pools), rather than starting slowly and adding things in later, and similarly ambitious "experimental" ideas for things like pet sets. Of course, their ambition is a strength as well, as they're trying to surpass CoH rather than just duplicate it, which is a laudable goal, and it's possible they're not actually going to implement all 72 combinations right off the bat, which should simplify matters in getting the game actually out there.
Actually, our initial target is for 6 initially, and rolling out the others over time. But, instead of having additional being afterthoughts, we're designing the system *now* to allow for these additions *later*.
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Im sure most people would think that by combining all 3 project into a single one would increase the chance of a spiritual successor being born but when you have 3 distinct view points it means that either:
A) people from at least 2 view points have to change their view
B) all 3 review each aspect and how the aspects interact and come to an agreement on which aspect to use from each of the offerings
I am sure these have already been tried and by all parties unwillingness to change their view (to the level where people didnt leave) we are were we are.
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Sorry I haven't been more active here everyone. I've been really focused on the game build itself. If you weren't aware, we had our third public release yesterday. This one is a lot more polished, and much more visually appealing than the 30th release. Here is a link to the latest builds:
http://valiance.shogn.net/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=11&id=190&Itemid=646
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I gave it a try. Very interesting. The first character I created kept appearing under the city. The second one worked okay. The mechanism behind melee attacks is certainly different.