Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7343434 times)

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21520 on: December 31, 2015, 06:54:16 PM »
and yep. My importance placement for slots while leveling up was always acc, then end, then rech and finally moar damage/Def/resist/other.

Keep in mind that if your goal is to improve DPE (damage per endurance) and DPS (damage per second), you are better off slotting a damage enhancement before endurance or recharge. 

Suppose, for example, an attack power does 3 units of damage and costs 4 endurance.  With no slotting, the DPE is 0.75.  If you slot a damage SO, the damage goes up to 4 units, so the DPE is 1.  If instead you slot an endred SO, the endurance usage goes down to 3, and the DPE is still 1.  However, the damage SO is giving you better DPA and the ability to frontload more damage.  You can always slow down your attack power usage to conserve just as much endurance as with the endred slotting.

Additionally, suppose that same power has an animation of 1 second and a recharge of 4 seconds.  Right now that's 3 units of damage every 5 seconds, or 0.6 DPS.  With a damage SO it goes to 0.8 DPS.  With a rech SO, the recharge goes to 3 seconds, for a DPS of 0.75, a little less than the damage SO.

Slotting the first damage SO gives you DPE as good as the first endred, DPS a little better than the first rech, and improved DPA.  For a power with damage as the primary purpose, I would always slot a damage SO before the others.  Later slotting can be a different story, and as to the point that slotting endred in your attack is very important, I agree.

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21521 on: December 31, 2015, 06:57:10 PM »
Except the opportunity cost of slotting endurance reduction in attacks is usually higher than in toggles.

That doesn't mean very much, because until you reach full slotting in your attacks (which is unlikely to happen before high levels), the opportunity cost of placing the slot into the toggle in the first place is placing the slot into the attack.  Except, of course, for the initial slot in the toggle, which may or may not be better off as endred depending on circumstances. 

brothermutant

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21522 on: December 31, 2015, 07:15:07 PM »
I don't believe this logic follows.  If you keep adding slots, at a certain point you are reducing the amount of minmaxing, as you have less need to make meaningful decisions.  In other words, if you have enough slots to get as many as you realistically need for every power, then you no longer have to decide which powers don't get the extra slots.  If you were just a few slots shy of getting what you wanted, that suggests to me that the number of slots is ideal.
Sure it does. Take it from a Blaster point of view: what should I focus on in my "main" attack chain? Acc? Dmg? Easy enough to cap both of those. What about End Cost? Do I need it to Recharge quickly too, so that I can maintain the attack chain in a fluid motion? So now I need to max out (before ED of course) EndCost and RC. Again, this can be easily done as well, even with Acc and Dmg maxing out. This all done with 6 slots.

But wait, don't I want to hit from farther away as distance is a Blaster's friend (usually)? So now I have to pick which of the above mentioned four gets hosed just so I can increase the RANGE.

But wait, what if I have a Buff/Debuff move on a power that I wanted to increase for whatever reason? + or - ToHit/Defense needs to be slotted somehow. What about mezzes, do I want it to last longer so I can stack it on bosses/AVs? Ok, need to buff mezz duration somehow.

Finally, while frankenslotting or liberal use of some really nice HamiOs are great, I don't get my IO set bonuses I desperately need to get my range defenses high enough to make me happy.

To wrap up, I don't believe allowing players the chance to get more of their powers 6 slotted (or even adding a 7th slot...it IS an incarnate ability we are talking about) would in any way diminish what typical Min-Maxers want to do with their toons. And, there is still the limitation of what powers to pick. I always tried for Stamina and Health before they were made inherent (except for Regen and WP toons). I like the Fighting pool (extra res and defenses are always appreciated) and, if I have a non-mez protected toon, I usually try for Combat Jumping (almost always as its a decent and cheap toggle), then Super Jump followed by Acrobatics to get its lame hold protection (Immob protection from CJ too). So that was like 6-9 powers I felt MOST of my squishy toons needed. Inherent Fitness lowered that to 6, but still, that is a LOT to pick for some minor buffage.

If you wanted something else, that's fine. Other thoughts would have been to give LOW mez protection for each incarnate slot (instead of things like Clarion). Say, depending on what Alpha tree you went up, you could get a +2Mag mez protection from one type of mez (or more). Again, all kinds of ways to make it useful, just not so over-powered we don't need to really put in effort to keep from dying (in NON-incarnate stuff I mean). Of course, the devs could have made HUGE amounts of incarnate missions, hopefully some for solo or small teams, in the future, but that never happened. Sorry for the long post, but I really think there could have been some better ways to incrementally increase any toon up to the last tiered incarnate slot that didn't make you so OP you didn't need to team or plan.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21523 on: December 31, 2015, 07:18:15 PM »
Keep in mind that if your goal is to improve DPE (damage per endurance) and DPS (damage per second), you are better off slotting a damage enhancement before endurance or recharge. 

Suppose, for example, an attack power does 3 units of damage and costs 4 endurance.  With no slotting, the DPE is 0.75.  If you slot a damage SO, the damage goes up to 4 units, so the DPE is 1.  If instead you slot an endred SO, the endurance usage goes down to 3, and the DPE is still 1.  However, the damage SO is giving you better DPA and the ability to frontload more damage.  You can always slow down your attack power usage to conserve just as much endurance as with the endred slotting.

Additionally, suppose that same power has an animation of 1 second and a recharge of 4 seconds.  Right now that's 3 units of damage every 5 seconds, or 0.6 DPS.  With a damage SO it goes to 0.8 DPS.  With a rech SO, the recharge goes to 3 seconds, for a DPS of 0.75, a little less than the damage SO.

Slotting the first damage SO gives you DPE as good as the first endred, DPS a little better than the first rech, and improved DPA.  For a power with damage as the primary purpose, I would always slot a damage SO before the others.  Later slotting can be a different story, and as to the point that slotting endred in your attack is very important, I agree.

This is a good summary of the critical flaw with the original power 10 enhancement system.  Many players intuitively knew this, and I formalized an analysis of it around I3ish, but the devs belief that different players would slot significantly differently was foiled by the fact they made the enhancements in such a way that there were usually very obvious "right" slotting solutions; slotting options that gave dramatically more return on investment than others.  It got hazy on the margins, but when the game straight up tells you that one kind of enhancement increases two things and its two competitors only increase one thing each, you are shepherding people into uniform slotting defaults.

Given a reasonable set of optimization goals, the best slotting sequence for attacks was accuracy, damage, damage, endurance.  The last two were less specific, although I argued then that by a slim margin the last two should be recharge, damage, in that order.  The first acc and first damage are justified as being the best overall dpa and dpe choices.  The second damage returned less dpe than end and less dps than rech, but in a weighted comparison it offered more of both than either.  The first endurance comes down to the quantitative fact that the first end returns more dpe than the first recharge returns more dps because of cast time mechanics.

The problem is that there's a very strong quantitative push to start slotting acc, dmg, dmg, and it programs players to just keep going, thinking those returns are still good.  They aren't quite as good as they think, but its harder to tell what the value of the last three slots are relative to the first three.  In effect, the game teaches players the wrong lesson early, and doesn't try hard enough to unlearn it later.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21524 on: December 31, 2015, 07:20:02 PM »
One thing I wished the devs would have implemented is some sort of character bound IO recipe system.  I think that once a character acquired a specific IO recipe then they should be able to use that recipe multiple times instead of having to find/purchase more recipes of the same exact IO.  I also think that when considering that we could have multiple builds, our enhancements should have been able to span across each of our builds instead of requiring us to acquire a whole new builds worth of enhancements for each build.  Both of these ideas would likely reduce grinding time and affect the auction house.

brothermutant

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21525 on: December 31, 2015, 07:21:31 PM »
Keep in mind that if your goal is to improve DPE (damage per endurance) and DPS (damage per second),Suppose, for example, an attack power does 3 units of damage and costs 4 endurance.  With no slotting, the DPE is 0.75.  If you slot a damage you are better off slotting a damage enhancement before endurance or recharge.
SO, the damage goes up to 4 units, so the DPE is 1.  If instead you slot an endred SO, the endurance usage goes down to 3, and the DPE is still 1.  However, the damage SO is giving you better DPA and the ability to frontload more damage.  You can always slow down your attack power usage to conserve just as much endurance as with the endred slotting.

Additionally, suppose that same power has an animation of 1 second and a recharge of 4 seconds.  Right now that's 3 units of damage every 5 seconds, or 0.6 DPS.  With a damage SO it goes to 0.8 DPS.  With a rech SO, the recharge goes to 3 seconds, for a DPS of 0.75, a little less than the damage SO.

Slotting the first damage SO gives you DPE as good as the first endred, DPS a little better than the first rech, and improved DPA.  For a power with damage as the primary purpose, I would always slot a damage SO before the others.  Later slotting can be a different story, and as to the point that slotting endred in your attack is very important, I agree.
But what about when you miss? All the dmg buffs in the world don't help when you're whiffing air. I think that is why so many focused on Acc then EndRed before dmg. Plus, wasn't there a semi-decent dmg buf and end discount on powers before like level 10 or 20? I swear there was a massive point where all my powers seemed to cost a ton of END and did lame sauce damage.

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21526 on: December 31, 2015, 07:21:46 PM »
Sure it does... snip

I believe you're missing my point.  Yes, there are plenty of things you can do with more slots.  But that doesn't mean providing more slots leads to more minmaxing.  It just leads to a higher max.

Minmaxing requires that you have to make meaningful decisions.  There must be tradeoffs; you must give up some things in order to get other things.  At a certain point, more slots means you make fewer meaningful decisions, not more.  Exactly where that balance point is is open to debate, but what you said earlier suggested to me that you tended to find yourself just a little bit short of slots, which in turn suggests that the number is just about right.


Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21527 on: December 31, 2015, 07:22:58 PM »
Sure it does. Take it from a Blaster point of view: what should I focus on in my "main" attack chain? Acc? Dmg? Easy enough to cap both of those. What about End Cost? Do I need it to Recharge quickly too, so that I can maintain the attack chain in a fluid motion? So now I need to max out (before ED of course) EndCost and RC. Again, this can be easily done as well, even with Acc and Dmg maxing out. This all done with 6 slots.

But wait, don't I want to hit from farther away as distance is a Blaster's friend (usually)? So now I have to pick which of the above mentioned four gets hosed just so I can increase the RANGE.

But wait, what if I have a Buff/Debuff move on a power that I wanted to increase for whatever reason? + or - ToHit/Defense needs to be slotted somehow. What about mezzes, do I want it to last longer so I can stack it on bosses/AVs? Ok, need to buff mezz duration somehow.

Finally, while frankenslotting or liberal use of some really nice HamiOs are great, I don't get my IO set bonuses I desperately need to get my range defenses high enough to make me happy.

To wrap up, I don't believe allowing players the chance to get more of their powers 6 slotted (or even adding a 7th slot...it IS an incarnate ability we are talking about) would in any way diminish what typical Min-Maxers want to do with their toons.

Of course adding more slots won't *restrain* players from what they want to do: it will always allow them to do more.  But the point Pyro is making is that min/maxing as a meta game requires making tough choices.  The game is no fun if you can always do everything you want to do.  What you're talking about isn't min/maxing, its just plain maxing.  The ability to build in such a way to get everything and do everything is the ability to create maximal builds.  The meta game of min/maxing usually involves trying to see what the best you can do is, when you are constrained in such a way that you can't simply get everything.  So the choices you make to decide what you get, and how much, and how those choices combine together into a build, are important.  That can't happen in a system where you don't have to make as many difficult choices.


Edit: seventy-two seconds too slow.

brothermutant

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21528 on: December 31, 2015, 07:34:31 PM »
I believe you're missing my point.  Yes, there are plenty of things you can do with more slots.  But that doesn't mean providing more slots leads to more minmaxing.  It just leads to a higher max.

Minmaxing requires that you have to make meaningful decisions.  There must be tradeoffs; you must give up some things in order to get other things.  At a certain point, more slots means you make fewer meaningful decisions, not more.  Exactly where that balance point is is open to debate, but what you said earlier suggested to me that you tended to find yourself just a little bit short of slots, which in turn suggests that the number is just about right.
Fair enough, but the point remains, giving all of a toon's powers a global Recharge/Dmg/End cost or whatever by giving them ONE incarnate ability seemed broken in comparison to just giving me a new slot or two to add. I would still have to decide which power got what (until I inevitably was given the ability to 6 slot every power I had). And I think it would have encouraged a longer game grind (which I am sure all employees would want as it extends the longevity of the game, whether we want to grind or not). But I see what you mean. I phrased it poorly is all. To me it would open up more possibilities for how to slot my toons than I would have before being given the extra slots. Does that sound more clear?

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21529 on: December 31, 2015, 07:48:25 PM »
But what about when you miss? All the dmg buffs in the world don't help when you're whiffing air. I think that is why so many focused on Acc then EndRed before dmg.

It's all well and good to say after you miss "if I had endred slotted instead of damage, I wouldn't have given up any damage, but would have saved myself end!"

In practical terms though, that's the City of Heroes equivalent of rabbit hunting in poker.  The point at which you make a decision about slotting is before the attack, not after.  At that point, if you want to consider the probability of a hit, then you're now considering expected damage.  (And expected damage per endurance, expected damage per second, etc.)  And the same basic relationships I described will remain true.

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21530 on: December 31, 2015, 08:29:10 PM »
Given a reasonable set of optimization goals, the best slotting sequence for attacks was accuracy, damage, damage, endurance.  The last two were less specific, although I argued then that by a slim margin the last two should be recharge, damage, in that order.  The first acc and first damage are justified as being the best overall dpa and dpe choices.  The second damage returned less dpe than end and less dps than rech, but in a weighted comparison it offered more of both than either.  The first endurance comes down to the quantitative fact that the first end returns more dpe than the first recharge returns more dps because of cast time mechanics.

This brings to mind a couple more thoughts.  The first is the consideration of accuracy before damage.  In terms of expected damage, they both provided the same multiplicative effect, and all other things being equal the lower variance in damage provided by accuracy slotting has value.  I suppose hit rate caps influence this, in that the accuracy slotting doesn't provide its full effect if you exceed 95% hit probability, resulting in less expected damage than a damage SO, but that doesn't tend to happen so often if you fight higher-level enemies.  And then, we're back to the fact consistency has value, particularly if simple survival is a real concern.  (Aside: I actually got into this debate repeatedly on Dungeons and Dragons forums when I noticed people used expected damage per round as a sole metric of offensive capability, sometimes being willing to trade large amounts of consistent damage for tiny amounts of expected damage.)  I assume this is why you place accuracy before the first damage? 

It also made me think about how the system changes for brutes.  I suppose that depends on the magnitude of the fury buff you can reasonably expect over time, but I'm not sure what data is available on that.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21531 on: December 31, 2015, 08:30:13 PM »
Fair enough, but the point remains, giving all of a toon's powers a global Recharge/Dmg/End cost or whatever by giving them ONE incarnate ability seemed broken in comparison to just giving me a new slot or two to add. I would still have to decide which power got what (until I inevitably was given the ability to 6 slot every power I had). And I think it would have encouraged a longer game grind (which I am sure all employees would want as it extends the longevity of the game, whether we want to grind or not). But I see what you mean. I phrased it poorly is all. To me it would open up more possibilities for how to slot my toons than I would have before being given the extra slots. Does that sound more clear?

Not sure what you mean by "broken" but there are very good reasons for deploying Alpha in the manner it was rather than, say, hypothetically granting a couple of extra slots.

1.  There were technical problems with deploying new slots having to do with deep interconnected ways in which the game treated leveling.

2.  Its much easier under exemplar to disable Alpha than to figure out which slots to disable in a build.  Or to be more precise, the game can always figure out what to disable, but players won't always fully understand what happens there.

3.  Its easier to control what happens when you *also* decide to add entirely new capabilities within that slot, such as level shifting.

4.  It allows for a progression tree tied to the new incarnate power that would be much more difficult to retrofit into the structure of enhancement slots.  This means that contrary to your assertion that more slots would encourage "more grind" the alpha slot system allows both more grind and a more graceful grind.  Players don't *have* to grind out all those options for Alpha, but on the other hand they could if they wanted to.  That's the sort of game play option you want to design for: useful but not absolutely necessary "grind" - additional gameplay.

brothermutant

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21532 on: December 31, 2015, 08:34:59 PM »
I am not saying you are wrong about the dmg vs endred slotting, BUT I want to understand why. So can someone walk me through my paper napkin calculations and make sure I am understanding this correctly?

Given ONE power that does Base 100 dmg (unresisted for sake of argument) and costs 10 endurance per cast (for ease of calculations).
Scenario A) Given one dmg SO buffs dmg to ~133 dmg.
or b) Alternatively, one endred SO lowers cost to 6.67 End cost per cast.
If I hit a target four times in a row, scenario A would do 4x133 dmg (532 dmg) at the cost of 40 end (so 532/40=13.3 dpe) Missing once = 399/40=9.975 dpe; hitting half as often as you miss = 266/40 = 6.65.
 Using scenario B, if I hit a target four times in a row, 400 dmg /26.68 end = 14.9 dpe; three of four = 300/26.68 =11.2 dpe; half as often, 200/26.68 = ~7.5 dpe. So again, I am confused.

Also, the other things that stick out as not being shown is the constant end recovery masks the look of how much end you would use as well as the chance the damage would be wasted (think of Corrs innate). Am I wrong in this and if so, please show an example if you can think of one?

Ok, I checked it in Mids and realized I was calculating the end discount wrong. Maybe that is why.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21533 on: December 31, 2015, 08:35:38 PM »
This brings to mind a couple more thoughts.  The first is the consideration of accuracy before damage.  In terms of expected damage, they both provided the same multiplicative effect, and all other things being equal the lower variance in damage provided by accuracy slotting has value.  I suppose hit rate caps influence this, in that the accuracy slotting doesn't provide its full effect if you exceed 95% hit probability, resulting in less expected damage than a damage SO, but that doesn't tend to happen so often if you fight higher-level enemies.  And then, we're back to the fact consistency has value, particularly if simple survival is a real concern.  (Aside: I actually got into this debate repeatedly on Dungeons and Dragons forums when I noticed people used expected damage per round as a sole metric of offensive capability, sometimes being willing to trade large amounts of consistent damage for tiny amounts of expected damage.)  I assume this is why you place accuracy before the first damage? 

Accuracy increases DPE and DPS by slightly less than Damage enhancements because of the 95% tohit cap, but that was compensated for the fact that higher accuracy meant secondary effects unaffected by damage enhancement also landed more often.  In almost every attack set except Fire, I concluded that contribution mades up for the lower accuracy contribution when tohit was capped.  Also, it depends on the strength of the enhancement: for a 33% SO you could cap tohit, but the analysis was intended in part to apply to *all* enhancement choices including TOs and DOs.  If the point was that the game was teaching bad lessons early, those lessons would be first learned primarily at the DO-level (since the TO enhancement level is over too quickly to matter).  At the DO-level, accuracy isn't capped by a single Acc enhancement (a single Acc SO would also not cap out tohit when fighting higher levels at the time of the analysis, which was pre-I7).

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21534 on: December 31, 2015, 08:40:25 PM »
But what about when you miss? All the dmg buffs in the world don't help when you're whiffing air. I think that is why so many focused on Acc then EndRed before dmg. Plus, wasn't there a semi-decent dmg buf and end discount on powers before like level 10 or 20? I swear there was a massive point where all my powers seemed to cost a ton of END and did lame sauce damage.

I thought there was some help for accuracy too, but could be remembering wrong. I do know that when I first discovered Yin SOs my inclination was to go with accuracy, which certainly helped but wasn't game-changing in the way the damage ones were.

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21535 on: December 31, 2015, 08:42:07 PM »
Accuracy increases DPE and DPS by slightly less than Damage enhancements because of the 95% tohit cap, but that was compensated for the fact that higher accuracy meant secondary effects unaffected by damage enhancement also landed more often.  In almost every attack set except Fire, I concluded that contribution mades up for the lower accuracy contribution when tohit was capped.  Also, it depends on the strength of the enhancement: for a 33% SO you could cap tohit, but the analysis was intended in part to apply to *all* enhancement choices including TOs and DOs.  If the point was that the game was teaching bad lessons early, those lessons would be first learned primarily at the DO-level (since the TO enhancement level is over too quickly to matter).  At the DO-level, accuracy isn't capped by a single Acc enhancement (a single Acc SO would also not cap out tohit when fighting higher levels at the time of the analysis, which was pre-I7).

Fair enough.  I was thinking that with a single SO enhancement against even-level enemies, a slight decrease in expected damage from accuracy over damage slotting might be worth it by virtue of the significantly reduced probability of a substantial number of misses over a few attacks, which could potentially place the character at real risk of defeat (particularly for squishies).  But the points of secondary effects and lower-tier enhancements certainly make sense.

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21536 on: December 31, 2015, 08:50:19 PM »
Ok, I checked it in Mids and realized I was calculating the end discount wrong. Maybe that is why.

Yes.  A 33% end reduction in a power costing 10 endurance brings its cost down to about 7.5. 

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21537 on: December 31, 2015, 08:53:31 PM »
I thought there was some help for accuracy too, but could be remembering wrong. I do know that when I first discovered Yin SOs my inclination was to go with accuracy, which certainly helped but wasn't game-changing in the way the damage ones were.

There was a mechanic referred to as Beginner's Luck, which provided low-level characters with a to-hit bonus, beginning at +15% at level 1 and diminishing at slightly less than 1% per level until it disappeared at 20.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21538 on: December 31, 2015, 08:54:21 PM »
I am not saying you are wrong about the dmg vs endred slotting, BUT I want to understand why. So can someone walk me through my paper napkin calculations and make sure I am understanding this correctly?

Sure.  Lets say we have a single attack that does 100 damage, costs 10 end, and recharges in 10 seconds.  And just for now, lets assume the cast time is zero.  We'll come back to this later.

Initially, if we cycle this attack we'd do 100 damage every 10 seconds, or 10 dps.  We'd also burn 10 end for every 100 damage, or 10 dpe.  And overall, we'd burn 10 end every 10 seconds, or 1 eps.  Lets see what happens when we slot different things.  First, lets slot one 33% damage SO.  Damage increases to 133.  Everything else stays the same.  DPS increases to 13.3 dps.  DPE increases to 13 dpe.  EPS stays the same at 1 eps.

Now, lets slot one 33% endurance reduce.  Now endurance costs drop to about 10/1.33 = 7.52.  Everything else stays the same.  DPS stays the same at 10 dps.  DPE increases to 13 dpe.  EPS drops to 0.75 eps.

Next, one 33% recharge reduce.  Now recharge drops to 10/1.33 = 7.52 seconds.  Everything else stays the same.  DPS increases to 13 dps.  DPE stays the same at 10 dpe.  EPS increases to 1.3 eps.

If we focus on DPS and DPE, the damage per second and damage per endurance, then damage slotting is better.  Its equal to endurance slotting for DPE and equal to recharge slotting for DPS.  In other words, to replicate one 33% damage SO you'd have to slot *both* one endurance reduce and one recharge reduce.

The catch is that EPS isn't constant in these slotting options, and EPS represents the endurance burn rate if you use your attack(s) as fast as possible.  But EPS is something under the player control: they can choose to attack quicker or slower.  DPS and DPE are constraints - they say, in effect, what's the maximum damage you can pump out per second, and the total damage you could deal if you converted your entire endurance allowance into damage.  So those two statistics are usually more critical to optimize if you are looking to optimize overall performance.

Cast time mechanics throw a curve ball here.  As discussed previously, powers don't start recharging until their cast time expires.  More importantly, recharge reduce enhancements don't reduce cast time.  That means while a 33% recharge enhancement will reduce *recharge* by 33%, it won't reduce cycle time by 33%, it will reduce cycle time by less.  Going back to our hypothetical power above suppose it had a 2 second cast time.  That means it can be used every 12 seconds, not 10 seconds.  Suppose we reduce the recharge to 8 seconds so it now cycles in ten seconds.  The power now starts off the same as before: 10 dps, 10 dpe.  But when we slot recharge, we don't reduce cycle time to 7.52 seconds, instead we reduce recharge from 8 seconds to 8/1.33 = 6.02 seconds, and total cycle time drops to 2 + 6.02 = 8.02 seconds.  Notice this is larger than previously.  That's because recharge is only acting on part of cycle time, not all of it.  And that means that the DPS of the recharge slotting case is actually 1.25 dps, not 1.33.  So slotting that first damage enhancement is actually *better* than slotting one recharge for dps, not equal to.

So in reality, slotting one damage gives you equal DPE and superior DPS to slotting one endurance reduce *and* one recharge reduce, in this example.  That makes it overwhelmingly better to use than either of the other two alone.


brothermutant

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #21539 on: December 31, 2015, 08:55:57 PM »
Not sure what you mean by "broken" but there are very good reasons for deploying Alpha in the manner it was rather than, say, hypothetically granting a couple of extra slots.

1.  There were technical problems with deploying new slots having to do with deep interconnected ways in which the game treated leveling.
That I can believe and understand as well.

2.  Its much easier under exemplar to disable Alpha than to figure out which slots to disable in a build.  Or to be more precise, the game can always figure out what to disable, but players won't always fully understand what happens there.
True, BUT you could explain this to players. The trick would be to somehow "highlight" the extra slot so they know which will NOT be part of their exemplar build. Or alternatively, leave the slot. They did earn it after all.

3.  Its easier to control what happens when you *also* decide to add entirely new capabilities within that slot, such as level shifting.
Level-shifting could be left in at the tier four still though yes? Or was it tier 3 and 4? Been too long since I played.

4.  It allows for a progression tree tied to the new incarnate power that would be much more difficult to retrofit into the structure of enhancement slots.  This means that contrary to your assertion that more slots would encourage "more grind" the alpha slot system allows both more grind and a more graceful grind.  Players don't *have* to grind out all those options for Alpha, but on the other hand they could if they wanted to.  That's the sort of game play option you want to design for: useful but not absolutely necessary "grind" - additional gameplay.
You lost me with this point. How does buffing all my powers with just earning one alpha slot (assuming the buff is used in the power, e.g. auto powers don't need recharge) encourage more grinding than steadily earning a slot or two per incarnate slot (what I am saying would be Alpha tier 3 or 4 would give a single slot, Destiny tier 3 or 4 would give a single slot, etc)? Unless you are referring to those people who went for more than one alpha slot so they can decide which buffs to use? If that is the point, that would make sense I guess.