Author Topic: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us  (Read 45356 times)

Segev

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2013, 02:12:48 PM »
Actually you can't really be certain that it would not exist without Capitalism. I suppose it all depends on the reasons a person or group of persons have for undergoing such a large creative endeavor. Not everyone is always in it for the money. Though sometimes, that's the only reason they're in it for.
You miss my point.

Without capitalism, there is no ownership save that of whatever empowered entity exists. So the only way we'd have CoH under a non-capitalistic system is if the powers-that-be, the few that they were, dreamed it up and commanded it be built. And then it would have been taken away just as easily when they got bored with it.

So not only would it have required that a smaller group of people with a narrower set of interests decide to create it (rather than any of the vast population of the world with a vast array of interests serving as potential originators), but there would be no pressure to put on them to keep it up except their own caprice.

Capitalism is the ultimate crowd-sourcing. It may not look like it, because we get occluded by the risk involved to the people who try new things, but it engenders the freedom TO try new things. None can gainsay a spunky developer who uses his own computer and resources, paid for with his own money, to try to build a game. But without capitalism, use of that computer to develop that game becomes "theft" of the time and productivity to which that computer could be put for whatever ruling body there is, whether the King, the Party, or "Society." And what is "proper" use of that productivity is at the whim of whoever rules it.

We'd honestly better hope it's a King, at that point, because at least then somebody's tickled fancy can be provoked into donating those resources. It would be corruption for the steward given power by Society for Society's good to devote those resources without first getting clearance for resources like those to be devoted to activities such as those. Especially risky ones like a game that it's uncertain anybody save the steward and the guy using the resources would want to play.

This is why individual ownership and responsibility to oneself is the most efficient use of resources; those who squander them will wind up with few, and they are still largely unwasted as they flow to those who do useful services. Those who happen upon productive, beneficial uses of them wind up getting the crowd-sourced support they need to maintain those services and continue producing those goods. Supported by the very people who benefit from them, who are alone the most qualified to determine whether the service is in fact worthwhile.


Not saying there aren't problems that can arise in the system. Far from it. Bad choices happen at every level. It's just the most robust against it. Witness the Plan Z successor projects: what we believe to be a bad decision was made, and we are building things to fill the void left behind. Were this not a capitalist system, it would be irresponsible waste or outright theft for us to be devoting Society's (or the King's) resources to producing something Society (or the King) determined was not worth it.

CoyoteSeven

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2013, 08:46:47 PM »
They never actually ever cared about us, you should remember. We were just walking, talking sacks of money to them. Once they declared our well dry, they moved on without so much as a blink.

CoyoteSeven

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2013, 08:57:27 PM »
Without capitalism, there is no ownership save that of whatever empowered entity exists. So the only way we'd have CoH under a non-capitalistic system is if the powers-that-be, the few that they were, dreamed it up and commanded it be built. And then it would have been taken away just as easily when they got bored with it.

But that's exactly what happened, isn't it? The people who initially had the idea for City of Heroes were unable to move the project forward with their own meager resources, so the only way for their idea to survive was if they signed away to a much more powerful entity. And what happened when that entity eventually lost interest?

CoyoteSeven

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2013, 09:06:22 PM »
This is why individual ownership and responsibility to oneself is the most efficient use of resources; those who squander them will wind up with few, and they are still largely unwasted as they flow to those who do useful services. Those who happen upon productive, beneficial uses of them wind up getting the crowd-sourced support they need to maintain those services and continue producing those goods. Supported by the very people who benefit from them, who are alone the most qualified to determine whether the service is in fact worthwhile.

Those who squander individual ownership and responsibility to oneself... you mean people who give away their possessions and put others in front of themselves? Those are bad qualities? I don't think I like the implication here.

This sets a dangerous precedent. One that could and has been easily manipulated by those already in power to maintain their little oligarchies. I'd be willing to bet the odds of any one random person being able to break through such a barrier would be on par with winning their state lottery.

Mantic

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2013, 10:13:24 PM »
It is necessary to separate mere capitalism from "corporate capitalism," or corporatism.

Segev

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #145 on: July 17, 2013, 04:43:18 AM »
It is necessary to separate mere capitalism from "corporate capitalism," or corporatism.
More importantly, from "crony capitalism" or mercantilism. Beware when governments start to regulate industries, because you can bet the biggest fish in those industry pools will wind up being the "experts" who are in charge of "helping" set the standards. Standards they can afford...but which raise the price of entry to keep out smaller competitors. An educated populace is the best defense, and private groups who make their living on the trust of those to whom they report are the best researchers.

But that's exactly what happened, isn't it? The people who initially had the idea for City of Heroes were unable to move the project forward with their own meager resources, so the only way for their idea to survive was if they signed away to a much more powerful entity. And what happened when that entity eventually lost interest?
Oh, like I said, bad things still can happen. But note that we now have Plan Z's successor projects starting up. Because we have a system wherein the ownership of resources is all you need to justify their use towards any (constructive) project you want, with no need to justify it to others. If we didn't, then the caprice and (we would argue) poor decision of the CoH owners would have been the last word on anything in its vein.

Those who squander individual ownership and responsibility to oneself... you mean people who give away their possessions and put others in front of themselves? Those are bad qualities? I don't think I like the implication here.
I didn't say they were necessarily things that made you a bad person. Note that I said, too, "squander," which is not the same as "give charitably." Conflating the two is, indeed, quite dangerous, as it equates waste with charity, when the two are vastly different.

Those who give charitably of themselves and their possessions are, indeed, laudable. It is wisest if they also produce more than they give, so that they might continue to have more and more TO give, but that is their choice.

No, my point was that waste of resources on foolish projects leads to those resources flowing into the hands of those who produce useful things and will use them to magnify their value into still more useful production. Charity can be such, if done foolishly, but even then it harms little. I judged nobody. I merely make the empirical observation that, if all are free to own what they earn and use it as they wish, good use of it will lead to more wealth for all, while poor use of it will lead to it flowing to those who will use it better.

Arguments over violence, theft, extortion, and scams are distractions, here: nobody is saying these things are "good," and to conflate them with productive activity is, itself, a scam perpetrated by those who would use it as an excuse to claim the right to simply take that which belongs to others, and call it generosity on their own part.

You speak of people using justification to maintain their "little oligarchies." This is a tendency, but it typically happens through the auspices of "protecting" people from "evil capitalism." Those who already have theirs miraculously are not affected by the new rules, but those who want to break in to higher wealth levels find barriers erected.

This is what is called by some "corporatism" today, but it's misleading. It's really mercantilism: government picking certain businesses to "win," to be "too big to fail" or otherwise important because they cater to government policy. Those businesses buy access, support the rulers, and get to make the rules that give them government money taken from their competitors and from other industries entirely, while dictating new rules to keep competitors from being able to get a foot in the door.

It's not capitalism at all.

Scendera

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2013, 07:34:45 AM »
We may not have saved City of Heroes, but I'd like to think maybe we saved someone else's favorite game from immediate shut down.

It's a small thing, but it's something.

Mantic

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #147 on: July 17, 2013, 10:20:27 AM »
It's not all mercantilism. It's also simple monopoly control, and tail-wagging-the-dog government influence which feeds back into subsidies and other favours, but just as well into selective deregulation.

Regulation in itself has no polarity; it can be necessary and good as surely as it can be exploitative. Sometimes it isn't immediately obvious which is which, but it isn't all one way or the other. Surely you don't damn all consumer protection, and all environmental protection, just because government is the only means available to the people (whose interests only the government, by way of the law, is able to represent at such levels) to enact and enforce such things.

You argue as if business -- publicly traded corporations in particular -- can do no wrong outside the use and abuse of government, when in reality the publicly traded corporation can not only do wrong, but faces far less punitive consequence even when caught clearly breaking the law. It is not possible to jail a corporate entity. The CEO is a dispensable and replaceable appendage (a mere employee acting at the behest of the remote and liability-free investors), as is even the corporate entity's name and legal identity. If a corporate identity is ever damaged significantly to threaten it's survival, it can morph, merge, re-brand itself, and continue on as if it were a perfectly respectable citizen, rather than a psychopathic felon.

These are all things that no human has the power to do. If it is all the government to blame, it is because corporate personhood should never have been established.

Segev

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #148 on: July 17, 2013, 01:47:51 PM »
It's not all mercantilism. It's also simple monopoly control, and tail-wagging-the-dog government influence which feeds back into subsidies and other favours, but just as well into selective deregulation.
Added emphasis to point out where the actual problem arises.

Regulation in itself has no polarity; it can be necessary and good as surely as it can be exploitative. Sometimes it isn't immediately obvious which is which, but it isn't all one way or the other. Surely you don't damn all consumer protection, and all environmental protection, just because government is the only means available to the people (whose interests only the government, by way of the law, is able to represent at such levels) to enact and enforce such things.
Actually, yes. "Consumer protection" - outside of simple prevention-of-theft measures - is immediately going to be exploited by the biggest fish in the pond. It invites and nearly guarantees the "tail-wagging-the-dog government influence," precisely because it makes government influence essential to do your business.

Let's assume a perfectly innocent version of this, just to illustrate how the problem is all but inevitable: The biggest purveyor of packaged meat obviously has concerns when they learn that certain meat-packing plants are unsanitary by any standard. He even agrees with the government's decision to regulate this. Knowing that he maintains factories so clean he would happily eat steak tar-tar straight off the machines, he is determined to help make sure that the regulations do the intended job. (After all, if Dilbert teaches us anything, bureaucrats who don't understand what they're managing create nothing but obstacles and often make problems worse.)

So he lobbies - both in contributions to politicians who are engaged in this noble, consumer-protecting effort, and in "soft" money spent to help educate the public and create a PR press to assure people that this problem is fixable - and gets himself involved in the writing of the regulations, using his own factories' policies as a guide.

Now, all the way through, he's acting in good faith, and we can even assume all government actors are, as well. But you can already see where this could gain the appearance of corruption. Coincidentally, when these new regulations go into place, his factories already meet all standards because they set it. His competitors - the big ones - have sudden expenses to bring things in line. Some may genuinely deserve this, because they were running the grotesqueries depicted in The Jungle. Others may have had perfectly clean facilities, but their standards were different from the biggest meat packer's, and so they also incur costs to come into compliance. Maybe it's just that the metrics are different (and, if they'd lobbied successfully to get on the board, our hypothetical "biggest meat packing mogul" would have had to spend money despite being established as perfectly clean), but still, they must spend money.

And then there are the local butchers, the small one-town factories, or the growing hub-village surrounded by ranches where a few intrepid ranchers' sons and daughters were going to build a new meat-packing plant. They were going to hand-clean everything every night; it is a small facility. Unfortunately, meeting the new regulations is not something that "hand-cleaning every night" will fix. "And so they shouldn't be in business!" you might argue, but they weren't going to run a filthy sty. Just different, smaller.

So, by the logic that they shouldn't be in business, only those wealthy enough to afford the cost-of-entry artificially set by this regulation can even BEGIN to compete. And that may seem right and fair to you; if so, then you should approve of the current gaming industry; if you're "indie," you've no business being in business.

Now, let's remove the thought-experiment-imposed assumption that the mogul is ethical. I'm sure you can see where this becomes a problem.

And it's not because the mogul is engaged in capitalism: it's because there is an avenue whereby the mogul can legally exert force or threat thereof to crush competition. That legal use of force (or threat thereof) is the exclusive province of the government.

You want less corruption and "tail-wagging-the-dog influence" in the government? Restrict it to only having power to make and enforce laws that deny anybody the right to use force, threat, or guile to take something that a fully-informed owner thereof would not part with. (No burglary, pickpocketing, mugging, extortion rackets, or scams selling something other than what is represented.)

The government doesn't "represent the people" when it tries to pro-actively regulate HOW people may produce products. It is best handled by private concerns doing the investigation, and making their money off of selling their findings to the consumer. Why do we need "FDA-approved Meat?" The FDA could easily be one of possibly several private agencies, paid by the companies themselves (and in brutal competition, always looking for each other to give lax reviews so they can undermine their competitors' public trust), or even paid by consumers who subscribe to their newsletters/blogs/magazines/whatever in the interest of buying "the safest meat" or what-have-you.

Regulation is needless at that point (beyond "you're going to jail if you promote working conditions that lead to people getting hurt or dying, and it can be shown to be criminal negligence"). Consumers have professionals who are doing the deep-level investigations for them, and those professionals will investigate each other, as well. The professionals are discouraged from lying to the consumer because, when caught, they will be ruined (as nobody will trust them and thus their rating system will be worthless). The industry is encouraged to live up to the best standards they can, because consumers look for good ratings from those private agencies.

And the corruption you likely fear? The idea that these agencies would actually take bribes from the industry to lie about its cleanliness and other standards? That already happens with the government regulatory agencies, but there's no recourse. Nobody else is looking into it. Government agencies are made of people just like private ones; government ones just also have no competition, and the legal power to use force against you if you do not comply. And if they decide you're not in compliance for any reason (say, trying to call them out on corruption), they can abuse that power to use force to shut you up.

You argue as if business -- publicly traded corporations in particular -- can do no wrong outside the use and abuse of government, when in reality the publicly traded corporation can not only do wrong, but faces far less punitive consequence even when caught clearly breaking the law.
What do you think a "publicly-traded corporation" is? It's made of people. Do we have far too many stockholders in such companies who are wholly disinterested in the actual running of their property? Yes. But if you think that getting people together to beg (or command) the government to regulate them is doable, why do you think it not doable to rally the shareholders against a company that is actively failing to serve their interests (or, worse, as they're often also customers of the same, is abusing them)?

The truth is, there are power-brokers who want to use you to get the government more power over the private sector. No, this isn't conspiracy; this is simply the government officials and those already in bed in crony "capitalist" - i.e. mercantilist - practices using their power of PR to convince people to cede them more power. If the same PR mechanisms were used to encourage stockholders in publicly-traded companies to demand compliance from the companies they own, the companies would change much faster and more responsively as new leadership was hired by said shareholders. But that empowers the individual people and doesn't kill off the competition of the power-brokers. It's something you and I need to push for, along with pushing for greater personal awareness on an individual level. It's hard work managing one's own fate, rather than turning it over to an all-powerful entity, but it's more effective and worth it.


It is not possible to jail a corporate entity. The CEO is a dispensable and replaceable appendage (a mere employee acting at the behest of the remote and liability-free investors), as is even the corporate entity's name and legal identity. If a corporate identity is ever damaged significantly to threaten it's survival, it can morph, merge, re-brand itself, and continue on as if it were a perfectly respectable citizen, rather than a psychopathic felon.
CEOs who actively engage in criminal activity can and are punished. Less so in today's highly regulated environment, because the CEOs of the biggest groups are often the ones most in bed with the government (conflating regulation and enforcement of genuinely needed laws and leading to cronyism protecting the criminals from things they could never get away with without it).

The "liability-free" shareholders still have liability in the form of their ownership in the company. And, again, are you saying that many of us on these very boards are evil corporate masters because we own stock in publicly-traded companies? No, our largest guilt is in assuming there's nothing we can do, or that it's too much work, when in reality, if we educate ourselves and push our fellow shareholders to do the same - if we can initiate a culture shift away from the thought that government solves our problems towards a thought that we can solve our problems and that it's our responsibility to do so - we will create a better situation overall. People, individuals, will be educated on matters of concern and tangentially informed on matters peripheral. And then grass-roots efforts alone will push the "corporate giants" to better behavior as the stockholders don't tolerate the company they own acting irresponsibly with their money, or worse, with their health as consumers of said companies' products.

These are all things that no human has the power to do. If it is all the government to blame, it is because corporate personhood should never have been established.
Nonsense. Everything "corporations" do is something people can do. Same with the government. The government is the body with exclusive legal right to use force to compel behavior. It should not be given broader areas in which it can do so, because that encourages the worst aspects of humanity to seek control of it. It encourages the corrupt union of private interests with government power, and removes the equality under the law that is promoted when you don't need "industry experts" to tell you how best to regulate their industry.

I'm no anarchist; government has its place and its purpose. Without it, we devolve into despotism as anybody can use force to take whatever they want. But its purpose is to prevent that, and little to nothing more. When it gets involved elsewhere, the temptation of its exclusive legal right to use force to compel obedience becomes too great, and corrupt or corruptible people gravitate towards it.

Corrupt or corruptible people may achieve power in private industry, in corporations or as moguls who own private enterprises. But without the ability to use force to compel obedience and to forbid competition, their ability to act on their corrupt impulses is curtailed. Separate the ability to dictate how business is run from the ability to use legal force to compel obedience, and the separation of powers creates a competitive environment such that even the corrupt at both ends are policing each other to prevent exploitation of their power, lest it be used against them. Unite them through the power to regulate being combined with the need for experts to write the regulations, and they reinforce each others' corrupt power against the "little guy."

thunderforce

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #149 on: July 17, 2013, 02:50:27 PM »
You want less corruption and "tail-wagging-the-dog influence" in the government? Restrict it to only having power to make and enforce laws that deny anybody the right to use force, threat, or guile to take something that a fully-informed owner thereof would not part with. (No burglary, pickpocketing, mugging, extortion rackets, or scams selling something other than what is represented.)

Of course this properatarian position does invite the question of why exactly, if government should do nothing else, it should enforce property rights. What's sacred about those?

To forestall the obvious answer, yes, for example, I feel pickpocketing is bad. I also feel many other things that government presently addresses, like poor people dying of readily treatable diseases, are bad. So you'll have to do a little better to establish what's special about property.

(Also, mercantilism is a word with a specific meaning.)

thunderforce

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2013, 02:52:19 PM »
Actually, it's pretty simple: as long as they own the IP, it is an asset against which they can leverage financial value.

This seems to miss the point that if they sell it they get an asset which itself has financial value, ie, money.

Pinnacle Blue

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #151 on: July 17, 2013, 03:54:06 PM »
This seems to miss the point that if they sell it they get an asset which itself has financial value, ie, money.

And the longer they sit on it, the longer it depreciates.
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thunderforce

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #152 on: July 17, 2013, 04:38:31 PM »
And the longer they sit on it, the longer it depreciates.

Quite so. The game was worth far more as a running concern than it is now; with every year that passes more of the old playerbase will forget it, get committed to other games, die...

Mantic

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #153 on: July 17, 2013, 07:08:54 PM »
...he is determined to help make sure that the regulations do the intended job.

This kind of corporate leadership in lobbying for regulation strikes me more as a response to crusaders like Ralph Nader, and other like him, who were often true believers acting independently in the interest of their fellow citizens. I don't doubt that corporate leaders are intelligent in their use of any competitive tactics, and the CEO of a corporation that has no ties it's human origin (once founders have lost majority control and/or been pushed out of leadership entirely) is merely doing a job with the singular goal of maximizing returns. Mainly short-term returns, as his or her future is always uncertain, aside from any golden parachutes. It's a job made for psychopaths.

What do you think a "publicly-traded corporation" is? It's made of people. Do we have far too many stockholders in such companies who are wholly disinterested in the actual running of their property? Yes. But if you think that getting people together to beg (or command) the government to regulate them is doable, why do you think it not doable to rally the shareholders against a company that is actively failing to serve their interests (or, worse, as they're often also customers of the same, is abusing them)?

That is like saying that "the members of a mob are people." A partial truth. Stockholders are not fully human in the same sense that a lone proprietor or small family business owners are, because they are almost entirely remote and hold only so much sway as they can convince the Legion of fellow stockholders that their demands will have positive fiscal results. Short term. Stockholders come and go daily. Their "investment" is rarely one of principle. Liability begins and ends with the money they gamble, and even that has some protection.

Regulations cannot undo that first sin of granting legal personhood to these very inhuman entities. That isn't usually the intent, so much as managing the beasts, or merely enforcing ethical obligations.

Regulations such as global price controls are lobbied for by small competitors, if such exist. Even if a potential monopolistic giant could turn with price controls into a means of leverage, it would only hobble them once they gain monopolistic control. In most cases, price controls create a balance wherein no major moneyed entity can exert the force of loss-leading anti-competitive price wars. A very typical consequence of completely unregulated business. The market is not ethical, or particularly intelligent, when offered what looks like a good deal, and will always take the gamble on immediate benefit over long-term consequences.

Case in point: the telephone industry. SW Bell became a giant even in a relatively primitive age, when it was difficult to justify entering many small districts. They did so arguably by leveraging patent protections. Government was also propping up phone service in rural areas, and many communities established coops by taking advantage of that drive to connect every household. Then SW Bell realized they had a complete monopoly on long-distance network access and decided to squeeze the local coops, resulting eventually in the breakup of their monopoly and the establishment of price control regulations.

The general public did not see dramatic results from this action. The price regulation locked things at a reasonable level, so phone service merely continued at a steady rate. Innovation may even have been stifled a bit, but almost every household in the country could still justify the expense, of a party line at least.

Then, in 1997, the regulations were eliminated. Big money interests knew by now that this was an opportunity. They also knew that there would be only one survivor. What consumers saw looked like a boom of technological innovation and insane price wars. Did consumers think of where this was bound to wind up? O r did they just try to game the system from month to month? Yeah... the latter. So eventually AT&T not only rebuilt most of the old Bell monopoly, but bought out the majority of local coops.

Now the government is in the telephone subsidy business bigger than ever (both land and cellular), because AT&T's near monopoly, now encompassing all the remote rural districts that never were very profitable, made telephone access an impossibility for more and more households.

On the other hand, you have situations like the minnows in California. Major agricultural interests were able to use an environmental regulation as a weapon against small competitors. At the same time, lack of regulation protects those same giants from consequences for their already draconian grip on water rights in the Southwest.

Right now, the big environmental issue is fracking. Here in Oklahoma we are right in the middle of that issue, and I can tell you from personal experience that the complaints are not baseless. Laws are needed in relation to this the same way that laws were needed to make oil companies liable for the dangerous garbage and substances left behind on dead drilling sites. The companies actively refuse to clean up the messes they make without legal pressure. Fracking does cause short-term pollution of the water table, primarily by flushing crude oil and other natural filth into the water, which kills a lot of wildlife and makes the water undesirable for drinking or serving to livestock at the very least (having to bathe or shower in it is not nice, either). My own well did not recover for about two years, though the pollutants might have settled sooner had further fracking not been going on in the area. It also causes a dramatic rise in seismic activity (not surprisingly; the process is practically designed to grease and stress the faults). So regulation (law) is obviously necessary in order to make the fracking companies liable for the real damages they cause. They are doing anything but accepting responsibility without such measures. The cost of addressing the damage would not put them out of business; it would merely enforce moral obligation to those whose property is damaged in the course of their business.


While everything you point out about the abuse of regulation is true, it is not a universal truth.

CoyoteSeven

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #154 on: July 17, 2013, 11:26:44 PM »
I'm beginning to think Segev really wants Robocop* to become a reality. He might have missed the point of the movie!

*(I'm not talking about the cyborg!)

Arcana

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2013, 12:25:30 AM »
I'm no anarchist; government has its place and its purpose. Without it, we devolve into despotism as anybody can use force to take whatever they want. But its purpose is to prevent that, and little to nothing more. When it gets involved elsewhere, the temptation of its exclusive legal right to use force to compel obedience becomes too great, and corrupt or corruptible people gravitate towards it.

Corrupt or corruptible people may achieve power in private industry, in corporations or as moguls who own private enterprises. But without the ability to use force to compel obedience and to forbid competition, their ability to act on their corrupt impulses is curtailed.
I believe that's oversimplistic to the point of being obviously wrong.  Speaking generally, the nominally agreed upon role of government is to protect the intrusion of one's rights by another, but rights can be intruded upon without the use of force in lots of ways.  For example defamation is an intrusion of rights without the exercise of force.  Tossing pollution in the water supply is an intrusion of rights without the exercise of force.  If I choose not to hire you or allow you into places of business because of your race, that can be done without any exercise of force.

The issue is that exercise of *power* doesn't always require an overt exercise of force.  Curtailing the abuse of power is probably a better mission statement of governmental oversight than curtailing abuse of force.

The real problem though is that not all rights are private and therefore not all threats to those rights involve an exercise of power against a single (set of) individuals.  If I burn down a forest I've attacked no specific individual's rights and exercised no specific power over any particular individual.  I've damaged a commons.  What a society decides are commons worthy of government protection significantly extends the requirements of government oversight.

I'm ignoring the issue of delegation here as being not central: the notion that the people will, as a rule, delegate authority to the government to handle matters they do not want to do themselves and cannot compel the responsibility to anyone else.  For example, large metropolitan areas delegate fire fighting services to the government on the assumption that people do not want to literally do that themselves and cannot compel someone else to do for them.  Rights and responsibilities tend to go hand in hand and if no one wants the responsibility to put out fires they surrender both the responsibility to do it and the rights to (directly) manage the service to the government.

Its worth noting that imperfect though they were, the framers of the (US) Constitution were no dummies either: my own opinion of the history of the Constitution is that the framers were aware that the issue of rights arbitration  was the central issue of governance.  That's why we have a Bill of Rights, for example, and very specifically why we have a Ninth Amendment to the Constitution.  If it was an easy task to *know* what are rights were, relative to other people, the US Constitution would simply enumerate them.  The Ninth Amendment in effect admits the Constitution and the Bill of Rights itself is imperfect, incomplete, and subject to future interpretation and extension.  The implication is that human rights might be intrinsic, but they aren't always legally obvious.  And that's why even if the theoretical limit of government authority is small, it must contain the machinery necessary for self-governance.  It must have the power to make laws and enforce and adjudicate them, because what rights we have, how we are allowed to execute them, and what sort of disputes can occur, is always going to be a messy and complex subject.

If this wasn't true, government could simply reserve the right to enforce what we all knew to obviously be our rights.  But because this is true, no government that is so minimal in its nature will ever be workable.

JaguarX

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2013, 01:32:51 AM »
  It must have the power to make laws and enforce and adjudicate them, because what rights we have, how we are allowed to execute them, and what sort of disputes can occur, is always going to be a messy and complex subject.


Yup.

The Ninth Amendment has generally been regarded by the courts as negating any expansion of governmental power on account of the enumeration of rights in the Constitution, but the Amendment has not been regarded as further limiting governmental power


And the root of mnay debates of personal rights vs making of the laws is the interpretation of the 9th admendement, such as the abortion debate.

WHile some believe the 9th admendment does not confer substantive rights but is simply a rule of how to read the Constitution.


And it all boils down to interpretation and how those in power, elected usually, interprete the Constitution and the Admendments. Which, ironically, many elected officials are from a business corporate background, have ties to corporations or various fields of law. Which in turn result in interpretation through the eyes of many people that run businesses and how to effectively enact those laws that they can relate to.

Most of the environmental laws started off as a corporation or two actually lobbying to get those laws passed and it was easy for them, as Sergev pointed out, because it was based on what that particular company was already doing. While their competition had to spend in some cases millions to follow the new laws, which many ended up with heavy fines that either set them back and or put them out of business. Even opening up an mechanic shop that is privately owned can be a pain in the butt now because of laws lobbied by major corporate automotive industry experts. Although many have still survived. Now, without laws, many car companies are increasingly making cars that require special tools and liscenses to work on, in order to decrease competition while enabling them to raise their prices for the same work. It was no accident. In the past it was easy asa phone call or letter to request schematics of a car now, most car makers refuse to send out schematics to any one but the corporate owned dealer repair shops. Which resulted in for example a peticular car costing nearly 2 thousand for brake pad replacement but the brake schematics got leaked and people started to realize that it wasnt worth 2 grand worth of work and merely required disconnection of tha battery waiting for 15-20 minutes for the servos and abs computer to discharge, which then causes the brake calipers to go into default mode (open), and the brakes can be removed and replaced in 5 minutes. Then recconection of the battery, about 10 minutes for the brake pads and computers to reset and off you go. But without the knowledge and the car maker holding a monopoly of that knowledge, they charged over 1500 for that knowledge without challenge. Now on the surface that could be called price gouging, and people have, but it was brushed off as part of the laws of capitalism and a free market.

Arcana

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #157 on: July 18, 2013, 04:12:48 AM »
And it all boils down to interpretation and how those in power, elected usually, interprete the Constitution and the Admendments.
The Constitution, and its meaning, has always been a messy thing in spite of attempts by some to portray it as a simple obvious document.

Consider article 4, section 4 of the Constitution.  Article 4.4 states that the United States shall guarantee to every State a Republican Form of Government (meaning: representative).  However, see: Pacific States Telephone vs State of Oregon and Luther vs Borden.  The Supreme Court holds in two separate cases that Article 4 Section 4 isn't a *legal* statement, but a *political* statement, and thus can only be judged by Congress.

In other words, the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that a specific clause of the Constitution makes certain acts of Congress beyond judicial review.  That "checks and balances" thing you learned in grade school has interesting limits.

On the subject of the role of government relative to its people, Article IV naturally leads to Federalist 10.  Federalist 10 is interesting in that so much of the contemporary facts upon which both it and its counter-arguments rest have been mooted by history, but the actual problems identified by F.10 itself still exist in other, modern forms.  The industrial revolution, for example, nullified the notion that property owners needed to be defended from direct democracy, but it didn't invalidate the overall idea that the minority needed protection from the majority, vis-a-vis the Civil Rights Act.

JaguarX

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #158 on: July 18, 2013, 04:21:29 AM »
The Constitution, and its meaning, has always been a messy thing in spite of attempts by some to portray it as a simple obvious document.

Consider article 4, section 4 of the Constitution.  Article 4.4 states that the United States shall guarantee to every State a Republican Form of Government (meaning: representative).  However, see: Pacific States Telephone vs State of Oregon and Luther vs Borden.  The Supreme Court holds in two separate cases that Article 4 Section 4 isn't a *legal* statement, but a *political* statement, and thus can only be judged by Congress.

In other words, the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that a specific clause of the Constitution makes certain acts of Congress beyond judicial review.  That "checks and balances" thing you learned in grade school has interesting limits.

On the subject of the role of government relative to its people, Article IV naturally leads to Federalist 10.  Federalist 10 is interesting in that so much of the contemporary facts upon which both it and its counter-arguments rest have been mooted by history, but the actual problems identified by F.10 itself still exist in other, modern forms.  The industrial revolution, for example, nullified the notion that property owners needed to be defended from direct democracy, but it didn't invalidate the overall idea that the minority needed protection from the majority, vis-a-vis the Civil Rights Act.

yup.

thunderforce

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Re: NCSoft obviously doesnt care about us
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2013, 11:12:39 AM »
I'm beginning to think Segev really wants Robocop* to become a reality. He might have missed the point of the movie!

I did wonder about that when Ken Macleod got a Prometheus Award (for "libertarian" SF) for The Stone Canal. Did they fail to notice it's a dystopia written by a Scottish Trotskyite?