Author Topic: Reply from NCSoft  (Read 59576 times)

JaguarX

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2012, 02:01:39 AM »
So even if they are doing is or not fruad or something of the likes by US laws, is it fraud according to Korean Corporate law, especially if the tax breaks are less generous or dont even exist?

But since they pay taxes here, does that mean that they could get the tax write off for the IP here too?

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2012, 02:05:33 AM »
So even if they are doing is or not fruad or something of the likes by US laws, is it fraud according to Korean Corporate law, especially if the tax breaks are less generous or dont even exist?

But since they pay taxes here, does that mean that they could get the tax write off for the IP here too?
]

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Aggelakis

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2012, 02:06:59 AM »
What NCsoft does with their American money under American tax laws doesn't matter to Korean tax law, because it's only AFTER all the American tax stuff happens that it funnels over to the Korean side of things.
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Samuraiko

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2012, 02:18:07 AM »
Per an email I'd gotten from Brian Clayton:

Quote
The short answer is that NC Interactive (a legal subsidiary of NCsoft) owns City of Heroes (and Paragon Studios for that matter).

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Rotten Luck

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2012, 02:21:41 AM »
We also still want to keep things Honorable and respectful.

As Mahatma Gandhi said...

"Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." ~
Mahatma Gandhi

Keep this in mind as you post.  Shame them!  Show them more Honor then they gave us and make them doubt their own honor.  Respect them and bruise their pride.  If we go and get to aggressive they can brush is off as "Crazy Westerners".  Remember too a whisper is often heard louder then screams.
One way or another... Heroes will fly again!

Kheprera

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2012, 02:30:22 AM »
Okay...

I'm not Olantern, and International Tax Law is not my domain...

however...

If a foreign entity, person or corporation, has business that is performed in the US where they earn money from US holdings, then they have to file US income taxes.  Same goes for the opposite... if, for instance, an American is in Korea performing a job for their company, then they have to file taxes for both countries, especially if they earn money for both.  It can get EXTREMELY confusing.  This is where the Form 1040NR (Non-Resident Alien) and other international tax forms come into play.

What Korean tax law is, I have no idea.  I'm not even going to pretend to know.

((deletes a lot of stuff due to not wanting to get into trouble... waves at the nice TIGTA people))

I cannot go into a lot because I really like my job.  One of the things I'd do, first, is see what other companies value THEIR IPs at, and go from there.  If NCSoft is using an Industry Standard amount for valuation, then there's nothing to get all blustery about.

NecrotechMaster

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2012, 02:57:16 AM »
I can't stop laughing at that image.  :D

same, thats frickin hilarious lol

Horror-Frost

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2012, 03:02:50 AM »
We also still want to keep things Honorable and respectful.

As Mahatma Gandhi said...

"Non-violence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." ~
Mahatma Gandhi


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sqmq_-6cwk

Manga

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2012, 04:25:41 AM »

I have a theory about why NCSoft is posting all these replies and press releases.

Because it's working in Korea, that's why.

I think that's all that's important to NCSoft right now.  They want to portray us as American bullies who have been harassing their poor hometown company.  They're telling their loyal friends and followers in Korea:  See?  This is why we shut down CoH, it's keeping our Korean company safe and secure from this kind of typical American behavior.

And since they're pulling out of the U.S. market and concentrating on new Korean games, they can get away with it.

Just food for thought.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2012, 04:32:50 AM »
And since they're pulling out of the U.S. market and concentrating on new Korean games, they can get away with it.

Maybe if CoH were indeed their FINAL U.S. game, I could see that. They still risk losing a lot more by still trying to bring B&S here. Why not just cut their losses now and abandon that idea as well?

Aggelakis

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2012, 05:09:08 AM »
And since they're pulling out of the U.S. market and concentrating on new Korean games, ...
But they're not.

Boobs & Shame, for one. WildStar for another. Aion and Lineage2 are still getting huge pushes on the NA side, too.
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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2012, 05:44:34 AM »
I'm not convinced.  Just because we know how US (and Canadian) companies work in terms of tax write-offs, it does not follow that this is how Korean corporate law is written.  We don't even know if there is such a thing as a tax-write-off in Korean corporate law.  Is there anyone here who knows how Korean corporate and tax law works?  Don't ever assume that because something is true in the US corporate structure, it is true universally.

Oh, I'm not. I had a bit of a look see (http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/apcity/unpan014586.pdf, among several others) into Korean corporate tax codes and tax law (albeit an admittedly high-level overview intended for non-lawyers), and at least that cursory impression leads me to believe that their system is largely similar to our own in these areas. Their loss relief and capital gain/loss rules are, if anything, more favorable to corporate interests than our own (hard to believe, innit?). Depreciation of assets is definitely deductible, although the section I looked at closely (Article 23) refers largely to physical assets, not intellectual property...but also fails to make that differentiation explicitly.

I may very well be mistaken about all this (it would take that genuine expert to provide us with anything definitive...and that ain't me), but my impression is that NCSoft have indeed valued the IP and other Paragon Studios assets as high as they can get away with in order to generate an offset.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2012, 05:52:03 AM »
I hope this speculation is wrong. If it's accurate, and NC is making more money off losing CoH than they possibly could with a successful game in 5 frigging years, then there's nothing we're going to do that will cause enough damage, UNLESS it leads to a federal investigation. And even then, if NC was caught red-handed, it would probably just toss everything into a legal meat-grinder, and NOTHING viable of NCs IP's would ever become available for another company to breathe new life into.

Mister Bison

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2012, 06:38:04 AM »
Per an email I'd gotten from Brian Clayton:
Quote
The short answer is that NC Interactive (a legal subsidiary of NCsoft) owns City of Heroes (and Paragon Studios for that matter).
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Ok, so whatever the loss, NC Interactive is going to incur it and this will fall under United States corporate laws since (from two sources) NC Interactive (aliases: NC West/NC North America, maybe NCNC) is the (an?) american subsidiary of NC Soft (the Korean company)
Yeeessss....

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2012, 09:46:52 AM »
I hope this speculation is wrong. If it's accurate, and NC is making more money off losing CoH than they possibly could with a successful game in 5 frigging years, then there's nothing we're going to do that will cause enough damage, UNLESS it leads to a federal investigation. And even then, if NC was caught red-handed, it would probably just toss everything into a legal meat-grinder, and NOTHING viable of NCs IP's would ever become available for another company to breathe new life into.

Don't lose hope.  Ammon quoted a price of $100 million as the valuation.  But he also quoted a pricetag of $100 million to do a successful reputation repair with stockholders if we can mount a negative publicity campaign that reaches the stockholders.  HandK will be watching for that--that is part of their job--and believe me, when they start reaching numbers in the millions, and mounting, for a reputation repair campaign, I suspect we won't have to wait for it to reach the magic $100 million number before they come crying.  It is much, much more expensive to repair a business reputation than it is to establish it.
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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2012, 10:55:10 AM »
Agreed, and one thing to remember is that the owning the IP itself, does *not* give you access to stuff created on it. And trying to get your hands on *that* can also increase the price by quite a bit.

Side note: Have a look at the mess that  Harebrained Schemes LLC have had to go through for the *creator* of Shadowrun to make another game based on that IP. And this is just for a *new* game based on it. I am sure that just gets messier for them to re-release the original games on top of that.

Christ, I am not sure who even *owns* the rights to that game either... the original developer/publisher has gone through several name change/ownerships, and the other publisher is now defunct, with *some* of their titles now owned by different companies.

I can actually speak to this, as I'm an involved party.

Originally there was FASA producing BattleTech, Shadowrun, etc.

Then Jordan Weisman stepped aside to do Virtual World (Red Planet racing game and VWE BattleTech), which eventually became FASA Interactive.

Microsoft bought up FASA Interactive and took full control of the rights to all FASA properties in an electronic medium.  In short, the guy who owns Virtual World today has a license for "Site-based Entertainment" rather than a license to produce video games.

Eventually FASA closed their doors, a purely monetary/bookkeeping decision by the owner and became a license holder.

The licenses for BattleTech and Shadowrun (at least), were bought by WizKids, another company founded by Jordan Weisman. 

The BattleTech and Shadowrun games were licensed to FanPro.  An outfit that'd been handling german translations of the various games and novels for years.  They formed FanPro USA and the person in charge was also the lead dev for Shadowrun.  WizKids also moved forward bringing BattleTech to their click-base "Mage Knight" game system as MechWarrior: Dark Age.  Rights to any future BattleTech novels with ROC transitioned into MechWarrior: Dark Age novels.

During this time, InMediaRes productions started up as a way to bring back BattleTech fiction.  We were rebuffed several times by FanPro, so we went over their heads and straight to WizKids.  Most of the people involved in IMR were also the people developing the BattleTech game at the time, as well as working with/for WizKids to keep all the various periods of the BattleTech universe in alignment.

Fast forward several years.  FanPro made the decision to drop their licenses back to WizKids.  IMR stepped up and formed the Catalyst Game Labs imprint and picked up BattleTech and Shadowrun.  It's still the same people doing the development from FASA through CGL for BattleTech.  Just different management.  With Shadowrun, the lead dev there decided to go off and do his own thing with his own game, called Eclipse Phase.

During this time, WizKids was bought out by Topps (the baseball card guys).  So, at this point CGL basically has to deal with a rep from Topps.  They're generally fairly understanding about new products in ancillary markets, at least once they're educated as to the niche these products occupy.  And we're pretty much left alone to run our license the way we want to.

DamianoV

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2012, 01:09:01 PM »
Can someone explain something to me?  This reference to making money on a write-off thing is bugging me, in particular, the concept that it blocks any sale of the IP.

First, I'm assuming U.S. Corporate Tax Law.

In my understanding, typically, a company can only write off an asset for tax purposes when it is "disposed" of.  This is something the company largely gets to determine as to when it happens, yes, but it does have to back that up if their friendly neighborhood IRS agents come knocking (been there, done that).  So, shutting down the game and/or selling it both would/should count as disposal.

Let's say they have $100 million of accumulated R&D and other "goodwill" associated with CoH that they are looking to write off.  (This is a number picked out of a hat, btw, and has no known relevance to whatever the actual figure might be.  Please do not go around quoting "SOMEONE SAID CoH WAS WORTH $100 MILLION ON NCSOFT'S BOOKS".  You will be (probably) VERY wrong.)

Let's also assume they have profits from another product in the U.S. market (cough GW2 cough) they are looking to write this loss off against in the current FY, and/or are looking to carry back the loss to previous years.  Let's use a relatively conservative think tank's effective federal/state tax rate (CATO Institute, do your own googling) value of 37.2% as a basis, and bump it to 40% for good measure by assuming NCSoft is as incompetent at managing it's U.S. financials as it is as managing it's U.S. service offerings (and to make the math that much simpler).  Note that this figure includes such elements as state income taxes, sales taxes, etc.

That would indicate a tax savings of $40 million on the $100 million write-off.

Typically, when you sell an asset, you still get to write off any difference between the sales price and the "value" of that IP on your books.  So let's assume they instead sold the IP for $10 million.

They now have the $10 million from the sale, plus $36 million from the remaining $90 million ($100 million value-$10 million payment received) write-off.  A total of $46 million.

Last time I checked, 46 was greater than 40.

What am I missing here?   I admit this is a drastically simplified model, ignoring, for example, repatriation of assets to South Korea and the possible currency conversion and taxation effects of that, but I'm still having trouble coming up with any scenario where completely destroying an asset is worth more than selling it, even at fire sale prices.  Are there special limits on R&D/goodwill write offs in a sale/transfer situation that I'm not aware of?  If someone could just PM with an IRS regs section number to review in relation to this, I'd appreciate it.

Manga

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2012, 01:38:34 PM »
But they're not.

Boobs & Shame, for one. WildStar for another. Aion and Lineage2 are still getting huge pushes on the NA side, too.

It's still a Korean game though, and they're being released in Korea first and managed from there.

Maybe it's a national pride thing then, that CoH has been embarassing them for years because it's a successful title that's made/maintained outside Korea.

I'm looking for other reasons why NCSoft might be doing this, because a tax writeoff makes no sense.  You can only take that once, and you can't just make up any amount you want.  Tax writeoffs are heavily regulated and watched closely by tax authorities for a reason.

It really could be a national pride thing.  Maybe NCSoft has been mocked by local gamers for catering to American gaming more than Koreans for years, and they want to change their image in Korea.  So they're trying to push everyone to Korean made games, and at the same time show off their power by dictating terms to Americans (no, you can't have your game no matter what!).  Pretty much what any dictator does when they want to flex some muscle.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 01:47:27 PM by TheManga »

Segev

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2012, 01:41:08 PM »
Embarrassment doesn't make sense. Why buy something you will be embarrassed if it pays you back?

Manga

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2012, 01:53:06 PM »
Embarrassment doesn't make sense. Why buy something you will be embarrassed if it pays you back?

See above, I edited. :)

In some countries your company's reputation is everything.  And in some of those, that reputation better be tough and ruthless or you become a laughingstock.  American companies used to be like that around the industrial revolution time, but our culture is different now.  Maybe Korean culture is still more like that, and NCSoft wants to attract investors and customers by proving how aggressive and vicious they can be.

We're going to kill off a healthy game, make those spoiled Americans cry, make sure they cry some more, and we're going to mock them while we're at it, too!  Sounds pretty aggressive and vicious, doesn't it?  Maybe they believe that's a positive image for them in Korea.  Maybe even more so if they've been accused of being too soft and catering to Americans more than Koreans, in the past.