Author Topic: Reply from NCSoft  (Read 59648 times)

srmalloy

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #120 on: October 28, 2012, 05:18:32 AM »
I re-considered part of my post and edited it. But here's the part I edited out. Just in case you think I should post it as a separate replay now or later. Perhaps this should be posted on December 1st.

I think that you may be missing a bet by not pointing out -- preferably in Korean -- that the reaction of the CoH playerbase to NCSoft's sudden and heavy-handed announcement of the closure, followed by a complete stonewalling of inquiries, demonstrated very clearly that the NCSoft management is completely incapable of understanding the mindset of the Western gamer, a proof that was only repeated with the content-free platitudes they have released. If NCSoft intends to be a top-flight gaming company worldwide, they are going to have to understand the mindset of gamers from other cultures, so that they can connect with the players in those cultures. But NCSoft has proved that they don't care about other cultures, that their position is that the Korean MMOs are the ideal type of game, and that all they have to do is shove game after game down our throats, and we'll eventually realize the inherent superiority of Korean games and clamor to play them.

I don't think we can actually come out and SAY that it's fraud, that would open us up for libel suits and what not.  What we can do is point out the closures coinciding with bad quarters and make it obvious enough for people to connect their own dots.  I've been wanting to do a blog post about this, but I've had trouble actually finding the time to do the research (to be sure I'm actually correct) and write it with work and college.

If you intend to bring these facts to light, do it in the context of asking for more information. Present the documentation showing NCSoft's valuation of all their IPs for tax purposes, and then the documentation of the value that NCSoft is claiming as a loss from shuttering just City of Heroes, and respectfully request to be enlightened regarding the aspects of corporate tax law and financial regulations that allows NCSoft to claim a loss from the closure of one game that is many times the value they claim for all their games, because from our Western viewpoint that looks like misrepresentation on one end or the other, but that NCSoft wouldn't be deliberately conducting such misrepresentation, so there must be something that we are missing, and wish to be enlightened.

Maybe it's a national pride thing then, that CoH has been embarassing them for years because it's a successful title that's made/maintained outside Korea.

It's just a theory, but I think CoH was squashed, not just because it's a successful title that's produced outside Korea, but because it's a successful title that is almost the complete antithesis of the Korean-style grindfest MMOs that they keep throwing at the Western market. These games generate an initial rush of subscribers attracted by the 'New Shiny', then start to hemorrhage players as they learn how horrid the grind is. City of Heroes, by bumbling along with even moderate success, is glaring proof that NCSoft doesn't understand the Western gaming market -- that they can't 'read' their potential customers to deliver an MMO that they'll rush to play and play for years (as we have CoH). With CoH gone, NCSoft can handwave their MMO flops in the Western market as their just not having found the right subject for an MMO -- that everyone loves the fundamentally-superior Korean-style grindfest MMO, and if they just get the right content it will be an instant success and displace WoW as the premiere MMO.

We're the inconvenient counterexample that proves they don't understand the Western market, so we have to go.


JaguarX

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #121 on: October 28, 2012, 06:06:23 PM »
This might be the reason that I'm not some big CEO.

I would have valued it for sale probably 1-2 years worth of the profits it was raking in at the time and the discount price would be off the calcuation of the steady decrease and if it continued in that manner up to two years. 

But all of this is assuming that there is not a sliver of a chance that I may have future plans for it or even part of the IP, like a chracters and storyline making an appearance in another game.


But I have another question though. Do anyone know the ture amount that have een offered to them? I asked this because sometimes it's not the actual value of what being sold it's also how willingly is the company want to let it go and also how much was actually offered. I was thinking when I was selling the 300 that I had. I was asking for ten thousand, kbb had it for 14,000, he offered 9,000 cash and I took with no hesitation. Now I also been offered 3,000 for it, 5,000 grand for it and low ball (in my eyes) offer. Of course these people walked away talking about how I must not really wanted to sell the car. And if the car didnt sell or the guy didnt offer the 9,00 cash then the car would have not been sold and I would say that I exhausted all options in this and probably kept the car and still drive it until I'm ready to put it on the market again even though I was truely tryignto sell. On the other hand, the MBZ which was kbb less than 300 and some people even offered more than what I got for the 300 but I turned it down because I was not selling at all. SOme offers I listened to but even as I listened I knew good and well unless they said some price and had the money there that was nuts to offer, I was turning it down. Thus, in that case, all options was also explored except there was only one option, I'm not selling unless you offer me some crazy amount. I notice that NCSOft never give a reason to what happened so they may be telling the full truth but hiding the reason of that outcome. But most of us probably have an idea of what really went one by putting the pieces together to get some sort of picture. It may not be 100% acc. but I think the just of the matter can be seen.

So the question is did they really want to sell that IP or just was entertaining offers? One way to determine is find out what exactly was offered and what exactly is the true value of the IP to the seller and what is the ture value of the IP to the buyer. I bet when those numbers are no where close to each other, then the problem of what exactly happened can be seen.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #122 on: October 28, 2012, 10:30:02 PM »
Well Ammon put forth that the "value of an IP" can include things that are more than the game...ancillary products like books, movie rights, etc.  These would inflate the "value" to as much as 100 million dollars.  And this is true...to an extent. 

However, when you start talking ancillary products, you are also blue-skying to death.  As an author, I know a lot about the real value of ancillary rights, as opposed to "what you tell the stockholders."

Let's take CoH, point by point.

Movie rights:

CoH has been optioned, it is true.  I will also bet any amount of money you like that the price of the option was somewhere in the neighborhood of $5,000 to $25,000.  Stuff gets optioned all the time and nothing ever comes of it.  As an example, Mists of Avalon, Marion Zimmer Bradley's megahuge Arthurian novel that never dropped off the Trade Paper bestseller list, was optioned right out of the gate by George C. Scott, who held onto those options (at about $25,000 every five years) until he died.  Only then did the series get made--for TV.  Did all right, but certainly was not a blockbuster movie and certainly did not make millions of dollars.  And for a game to be made into a movie, well there kind of needs to be a living game to generate initial support for the movie.  So, movie rights for CoH?  Until the current option runs out--worth zero.  Someone already has them.  Once the current option runs out?  At that point the trend for superhero movies could well have died, and there will be no living game to support it.  I would say, worth maybe $5,000.  Certainly not millions.

Book rights:

There were, already, three CoH books written.  They are not currently in print, and did not do well.  This bodes very ill for future book projects.  I won't go into why, in my estimation, they did not do well; the simple facts speak for themselves, and book buyers for the big chains are going to be reluctant to order any new books based on the track record of the old books.  A traditional publisher is going to be equally reluctant to pick up such a project for the same reason, and because the game is not live.  This means the books would have to be funded by NCSoft.  So book rights, are not only not worth millions, at this point, book rights are worth $0.

Comic rights:

See book rights.

Other kinds of games:

It's certainly possible to make a standalone console game, or even a standalone PC game out of CoH.  It's certainly possible to make a side-scrolling browser game.  But NCSoft has killed the original game.  So it would be as if they were starting from scratch.  NCSoft has no studios working on console games or standalone PC games; they have no experience with marketing these things.  This means that the "value" of the rights for such applications is pretty much what another studio would be willing to pay for it--and looking at all the acrimony that NCSoft has generated at this point, if I were the manager of such a studio, I would be saying "No, you pay me to do this for you.  I sure as hell am not taking the risk."

Toys, etc:

No game?  No market.  End of discussion.

The bottom line here is that while NCSoft can place some crazy valuation on City's ancillary rights, the real world value of such things, total, is not $100 million.  It's more like $100,000.  If that.

As for the value of City itself, if the buyer were able to reboot within a couple of months, probably what Valve offered; about $3 million.  But this is contingent on being able to reboot quickly.  I suspect, although I do not know, that the value would degrade rather quickly over time.  City plus Paragon Studios could be worth much more; I couldn't put a value on Paragon Studios.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 10:41:39 PM by Victoria Victrix »
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Turjan

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #123 on: October 28, 2012, 11:25:47 PM »
Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.

I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...

"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."

That's what my crystal ball is telling me. I tried shaking it to get a different image, but all it said was "Radio. RADIO! RADIOOOOOOO! Free Opportunity!" ...and that didn't help much really ;)

JaguarX

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #124 on: October 28, 2012, 11:36:00 PM »
Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.

I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...

"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."

That's what my crystal ball is telling me. I tried shaking it to get a different image, but all it said was "Radio. RADIO! RADIOOOOOOO! Free Opportunity!" ...and that didn't help much really ;)

I have a gut itch that you may not be too far off with that prediction.

Wyrm

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #125 on: October 28, 2012, 11:56:37 PM »
Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.

I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...
They're welcome to sell it.  Who will buy it?  That's a good question.  I don't see any way a "City"-scale game works well in a tablet - or, $deity-forbid, smartphone - format.  It'd be something with the name attached and the soul sucked out.

Pass.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #126 on: October 29, 2012, 12:34:20 AM »
"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tabletsMuch like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."

If they really want to do that, just make it cross-platform for crying out loud. But even then, it's hard to say if I'd play it. CoH came from a very different era of gaming, when MMO's targeted a specific subset of people. Sadly, this is part of the reason the community here was so great. A mass-appeal version of CoH, in the modern gaming age, targeting people who only know how to use internet because it now enhances their social butterfly lifestyle? That would water the community down to the point of oblivion. It would make the game feel like a 3D version of Facebook.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #127 on: October 29, 2012, 12:51:21 AM »
Next post in my quest to make life a living hell for NCSoft's PR firm.

http://www.cccpgroup.us/story.php?ID=1258

Sadly, CCCP works on some extremely old board software and I couldn't make it do proper clickable hyperlinks.

Woohoo!  I win!  I found an item with links coded, got the edit of the page and figured out how to make it work!

Bwahahahaha
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 02:10:09 AM by Victoria Victrix »
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P51mus

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #128 on: October 29, 2012, 04:32:57 AM »
If I had any suggestions, it's that normally you'd want to integrate links into what you're already saying.  Like "stocks slide to a new 52 week low" would link to the stock page.  "a game so close to perilously close to soft-core pornography" could link to the first blade and soul link, and you could link "'Boobs and shame' or 'Bits and Tits'" to the video.

At least, that's how I would normally structure links into a post.  Any thoughts on this from Ammon?  I'm not an expert in this.

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #129 on: October 29, 2012, 07:20:01 AM »
Which is probably why they have just valued all their IP's *combined* at around the $2million mark.

Sure, someone could buy the IP for City of Heroes, but that wouldn't actually include any work done on the game side though. So how much is the game code actually worth? Once again, it is a value that we actually don't know, and one that is *hard* to gauge, because it has had years of work done on it. One could make the argument that the game code and content itself was more valuable in August than it was at launch.

I think that's doubtful. The game engine is flawed and dated. Even the code base built on it is probably not worth much without the ability to hire a number of developers familiar with it. And then it's only real value is to run CoH. So neither the engine nor the code base is likely to have much value now that Paragon Studios is disbanded. And when CoH shuts down in a 5 weeks even that small value is likely to drop. Given that the content is tied to those tech elements, even that isn't worth much.

IMO, the majority of the IP value at this point resides in the non-tech IP. And most of that is tied up in a potential CoH2. Which NCSoftcore has done a very good job of making worth as little as possible by alienating a large chunk of any potential market for such a product published by them.

When they made their announcement at the beginning of Oct I believe that made the customer list the most valuable asset in the CoH/PS bundle, since by that time PS was unrecoverable and they'd done a great job of undermining the value of the CoH brand (it's main value to NCSoftcore at this point might be to keep a competitor from making them look bad).

Kosmos

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2012, 07:42:55 AM »
"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."

A 2D side-scrolling version of CoH. Thanks, I'll pass.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2012, 10:31:26 AM »
If I had any suggestions, it's that normally you'd want to integrate links into what you're already saying.  Like "stocks slide to a new 52 week low" would link to the stock page.  "a game so close to perilously close to soft-core pornography" could link to the first blade and soul link, and you could link "'Boobs and shame' or 'Bits and Tits'" to the video.

At least, that's how I would normally structure links into a post.  Any thoughts on this from Ammon?  I'm not an expert in this.

Thanks!

I'm just glad I got clickable links to work at all.

The CCCP site is mostly kludge-code that dates all the way back to 2005 in most places.  (The original coder actually denied to my face that he was the one that coded it in order to get out of helping me to fix it when a hacker hit it.) 

I'll work on this as I get more familiar with putting stuff up on it, but at least I have two of Ammon's three major "needs" to increase visibility.  I have keywords in the titles that will get business people rather than gamers, and I have clickable links.  The third--embedded video--I don't think we even have the capability to do on that site.

After November 30th if you are feeling the ache of withdrawal and think some decent CoH fan-fiction might help, please feel free to browse through the archives by clicking "View All Story Arcs" and reading in chronological order.

As for a 2-D sidescrolling version of CoH....if it were the last electronic game on the planet, I would be playing checkers in the park with retirees.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Turjan

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #132 on: October 29, 2012, 11:27:33 AM »
As for a 2-D sidescrolling version of CoH....if it were the last electronic game on the planet, I would be playing checkers in the park with retirees.

Indeed, this is another thing that puzzles me - suppose my tinfoil hat theory is right and the two-headed giant Nexsoft do want to make an i-device product out of CoH...who the heck would buy it anyway? Existing players would rather shove their iphone painfully into parts of said two-headed giant's nether anatomy, and the CoH-naive are simply going to say "Superheroes? Where's Batman then? Not interested..."  ???

As always, nothing that Nexsoft does seems to make any sense whatsoever.

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #133 on: October 29, 2012, 04:04:48 PM »
Thanks!
As for a 2-D sidescrolling version of CoH....if it were the last electronic game on the planet, I would be playing checkers in the park with retirees.

Can I make a tentative reservation w/ you on a couple games of... chess maybe?  ;)

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #134 on: October 29, 2012, 04:40:18 PM »
To be fair, the plan may be to kill CoH to make the fans grateful when it revives in that format, calculating that they wouldn't have been interested if the PC game was still alive. Very cynical, and obviously at this point grotesquely flawed, but a possible original plan.

Moonfyire101

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #135 on: October 29, 2012, 05:29:38 PM »
NOOOOOOOOO NEXON no! We don't wan't a stupid side scrolling, dumbed down, iphone/tablet piece of crap. Why can't they just sell it to someone who gets us? I am so dissapointed in NC and NEXON. Why? Why are they both so stupid? They want us to evolve? We evolved that game for 8 years! They are the ones who need to get on board and evolve. We don't want stupid phone games. Leave that to Zinga. Phone/tablet games are the de-evolution of games. I might as well play genesis or atari.

"i feel like i'm a kid.... and all i wnt for my birthday is a simple little red remote controlled car...... i keep telling my parrents that this is what i want and i even show them exactly what it looks like and where they can find it.... i also tell them that this is the ONLY thing that i want for my birthday and NOTHING else..... but when my birthday actually rolls around and i open up my gift i see that it is not the little red remote controlled car that i wanted... but some over the top gaudy looking space toy that i never wanted in the first place because it's stupid...... that is exactly what i feel like right now....."~RockDeadman

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #136 on: October 29, 2012, 05:32:16 PM »
Genesis/Atari > iPhone games.

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #137 on: October 29, 2012, 05:33:52 PM »
Genesis/Atari > iPhone games.
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Yeeessss....

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #138 on: October 29, 2012, 05:43:21 PM »
Yes, they're being rather coy about the value of the IP - and I have a suspicion why.

I've reached the tinfoil hat point to the extent that I fully expect to see a news article like this not long after our beloved game sunsets...

"[--insert game review site here, circa January 2013--] To iphone and beyond! Nexon obtains rights to produce City of Heroes for smartphones and tablets
Much like DC's 'The New 52' reboot, recently sunsetted superhero MMO City of Heroes will receive a rebirth of its own following Nexon's acquisition of the Intellectual property rights from NCsoft for an undisclosed sum. Min Kim of Nexon US had this to say : 'The City of Heroes franchise enjoyed great success in western markets. Nexon's acquisition of the IP will allow us to reboot City of Heroes for a new generation of platforms and players, with our partner NCsoft developing the game, and Nexon publishing it in the west.' City of Heroes was closed in November 2012 forcing tens of thousands of online heroes to hang up their virtual tights and capes. 'We owe a lot to those players,' Min Kim says, 'because without them, City of Heroes would never have been the success it was. But times change, and ideas need to be updated to keep pace with new and evolving markets. I do hope the players of the original City of Heroes will adapt too, and enjoy a new version of the game they loved, but now on a tablet instead of a PC'. Nexon hopes to have their new supehero game flying over our city skies in 2015."

That's what my crystal ball is telling me. I tried shaking it to get a different image, but all it said was "Radio. RADIO! RADIOOOOOOO! Free Opportunity!" ...and that didn't help much really ;)

I'm wearing the same tinfoil hat.  I fear they will be trying to make a smartphone game out of the IP as well.

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Re: Reply from NCSoft
« Reply #139 on: October 29, 2012, 06:05:51 PM »
I um.. took out my meditation crystal stones... Think I might try the tin foil.
One way or another... Heroes will fly again!