Author Topic: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?  (Read 43024 times)

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2013, 06:17:47 AM »

Tenzhi

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2013, 06:24:19 AM »
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Samuel Tow

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2013, 01:40:39 PM »
No wonder why so many squeeky voiced teenagers and Non-Gamers play it to make it so popular right?

I'm sorry, but that's a horrible sentiment in that it's completely exclusionist. I would quite literally rather have a dark age of gritty games than a return to the "good" old days when only "gamers" need apply an everyone else isn't worthy of having fun. You decry Call of Duty and Halo and so forth, but you're perpetuating the same "lolnewb" mentality of disparaging the less skilled. There's nothing about gaming that's unique to the hardcore. "Challenge" is not a necessary part of what makes a game good. Sure, I have no problem with challenging games - I just don't play them. But to suggest that anything which isn't challenging is bad is just not fair.

Diablo 2 is easily my least favourite game of all time, and the single overriding reason for that is the three-tier skill tree and the skill points allocation. Literally the primary reason I bought City of Heroes to begin with is it promised me that I don't need to take powers over and over again. The choice between having more powers or fewer but stronger ones is one I never want to have to make, and I couldn't be happier with Diablo 3's abandonment of that system. OK, I still feel that Diablo 3 is terrible, but this time for completely different reasons. The storyline is crap on a stick and I hate how item-driven the game is. I dislike that there is an auction house where the best stuff can usually be found, and I disliked its frankly unplayable difficulty at the higher levels. Well, now that it has scalabile difficulty levels, that at least is one problem less since I can set it to the lowest and keep playing. But even so the min-maxing in that game puts me off.

I'm with Tenzhi on this one. I'd rather play a game that's too simple or too easy over one that's too difficult or too complicated. If you look at the games I grew up on - Prince of Persia, Captain Comic, Jill of the Jungle, Knights of the Round and so forth, you'll notice that they're incredibly simple and, now that I'm going back to them, also quite easy. Sure, Capcom's old arcades are still quite difficult, but these days I play them on an emulator with infinite credits. My point, though, is I don't enjoy games that don't let me enjoy them unless I'm "this tall to ride." To me, the limited lives idea is old and has no place in modern gaming. Punishing people for doing poorly in general isn't something I enjoy, and not something I ever have. It's why I never played any of the "plane shooter" "bullet hell" games of old that made you lose all your power-up when you got killed.

To me, Ubi's Prince of Persia series is the ideal example of how death should be dealt with - by integrating it into the game. You die, you get bumped back into the game and asked to repeat the task you failed at properly this time. The Sands of Time series did this with time reversal, the new series did it by having Elika save the prince every time, but the point is that these games achieve a state of "flow" that really isn't replicable in the fits-and-stops gameplay of old. Yes, there are old games I was never able to finish. To this day, I've been unable to get to the end of Green Berets. That game's hard as balls, and you know what? I don't remember it that fondly. I tried it recently and it's still just as hard, and still just as not fun.

My point is that there's nothing wrong with easy games that isn't also wrong with hard games. An easy game is no less of a "real" game than a hard game and a hardcore gamer isn't any less of a fan than one who prefers easy titles.
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Samuel Tow

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2013, 01:59:42 PM »
Of all the things I've lost,
I think I miss my mind the most.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2013, 01:42:39 AM »
One of the things that young writers forget is that without eucatastrophe, catastrophe has no meaning and reduces everything to dust and ashes.

Let's take one of the darkest, grittiest films ever.  Pulp Fiction.  With the exception of Bruce Willis's girlfriend, everyone in that movie is a villain.  Everyone.  They all do dark, horrible things. 

And yet...and yet...

We have two characters, Jules (Samuel L Jackson) and Butch (Bruce Willis) who have it in them to be redeemed.  Wed actually can see that, in Jules' case from the fact that he seems to be overcompensating as a badass, and in Butch's case, where he is driven into doing bad things because he refused to take a fall in a prize fight after agreeing (and being paid) to.

And in the end, what do we get?  Catastrophe: A huge smoking pile of bodies, of people who deserve it.  And eucatastrophe: Jules taking his Biblical quotation to heart and "walking off into the wilderness" to find redemption, and Butch rescuing his girl and driving off to do the same.  The eucatastrophe turns all that blood and spattered body parts into a redemption story, there is hope again, our subconscious is satisfied, and yet I defy you to find a darker, grittier story, anywhere.

Where there is no eucatastrophe, there is no hope.  Where there is no hope, why partake in the story at all? 

Even Romeo and Juliet ends in hope.  The lovers may be dead, but in Shakspearian context the audience knows and feels deeply they are united in heaven, and their deaths bring peace to their feuding families.

I think that is why the shutdown of CoX hit me so hard with Bella.  She never got her eucatastrophe.  I never got my hope.  Seven solid years of living in her skin, six of them playing someone deeply in mourning, and it ends in a whimper and oblivion?  I will never forgive NCSoft for doing that to me.  And I will always be grateful to Samuraiko for giving me this:  http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7170.0.html
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Samuel Tow

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2013, 02:50:09 PM »
One of the things that young writers forget is that without eucatastrophe, catastrophe has no meaning and reduces everything to dust and ashes.

"This." That's what I mean when I say that a story is "going somewhere" with its darkness and drama. I just apparently lacked the word for it :) It's the principle behind a Don Bluth movie, basically - you can get away with a lot of horror and darkness so long as your movie has a happy ending, in my opinion because that convinces your audience all the pain and suffering was worth it to get to where the movie is. If you can craft a story such that it ends up being more positive in the end BECAUSE of its dark elements than it ever would without them, that's a story that was "going somewhere" with its drama.

However, there is the other side of this, that you need to keep your audience until the end and the payoff. If I paid for a movie, I probably won't walk out of the theatre, but if I rented a DvD or got a book, then you bet I'll shut it down mid-way through if I think it's crap. That's why I've never managed to watch the End of Evangelion movie. It's gross, confusing and pointless so every time I try to watch it, I just shut it down by the time the flashbacks start. If you can't keep my ass in the seat long enough to see the eucatastrophe, then it might as well not be there, thus why it's important to pepper your story with either enough hints of it, or otherwise enough mini-eucatastrophes to keep people believing in the possibility of an ending that has a point.

The only trouble is that the more you egg people on with "No, really! It'll all be worth it in the end!" the higher the expectations that you set and the more spectacular the failure will be if the ending bombs. There have been very few movies that have actually caused me to get off my seat and yell "Bullshit!" but there are a few. Again we go back to the Legend of Korra. After half a season of failing miserably, Korra finally gets a shining moment of awesome when she takes a lot of beating but still utterly kicks triple-ponytail-guy's ass. It's awesome, it's spectacular, it's a great character moment! And then it turns out he's a bloodbender so he beats her anyway, ties her up and throws her into a box. That moment seriously caused me to punch my desk, and only so I could avoid punching my far more expensive electronics. If it weren't 4AM at the time, you bet I'd have been spewing obstinacies at the screen. All because the story seemed to be promising me that "No, really! All of this hardship will be worth it! See? See how awesome she is?" only to yoink that kind of closure out of my hands and replace it with even more shit.

Right at that point, I stopped caring what the story is "about," because it failed AS A STORY OF ANY KIND so spectacularly that it has become easily the worst piece of television I've seen in my entire life. Pretty much because of that one scene alone, and what it means in the context of the broader story. And by the time the happy ending at the end rolled around, I no longer gave a crap about any of the characters, any of the plot points or any of the ideas. I basically watched the latter half of the season just shaking my head and passing the time, not being able to believe the trainwreck that was happening before me in slow motion. Were I in my right mind, I'd have walked out, simple as that. Because past that point, the series basically lost me as audience. I could have been watching Twilight for all I cared. Because you can only tease people with eucatastrophe so many times before they start calling your bluffs and become psychic for how easy they can read ahead in your script. Once you know that NOTHING will ever turn out right, you basically don't need to see anything from that point on till the end, and you won't care about what happens AT the end.

---

This cannot be said strongly enough: You NEED a eucatastrophe in order for a story to even have a point and in order for people to give a rat's ass about it. And yes, it's a common beginner's mistake to never deliver on that, thinking that drama itself is what makes a story good. I've been there, I've thought the same and I've produced horrible garbage, myself. I'm not too proud to admit when my own work sucks, and it does for the most part. But it kills me when I see beginner writers doing the same mistake on major commercial projects. You don't do that!
Of all the things I've lost,
I think I miss my mind the most.

Tenzhi

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2013, 08:19:46 PM »
If it weren't 4AM at the time, you bet I'd have been spewing obstinacies at the screen.

I seem to recall that English isn't your first language, and that you prefer to get the words right.  If my addled brain is mistaken in this recollection, forgive me for this kindly meant correction: I believe the word you're looking for is "obscenities". 
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Samuel Tow

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2013, 11:42:03 AM »
I seem to recall that English isn't your first language, and that you prefer to get the words right.  If my addled brain is mistaken in this recollection, forgive me for this kindly meant correction: I believe the word you're looking for is "obscenities".

You are correct, Tenzhi. I read what you said and I was like "But wait, that's what I said!" Then I looked at you quote and was like *headdesk*. Gah! I should have known better than that, and I think I know how that happened. I'm something of a sloppy typist, so I rely on Firefox spell check a lot. However, when I misspell a word bad enough, spell check can't figure out what I meant to say, or it simply misunderstands and tosses me a suggestion that has nothing to do with the actual word. I'm sure I typed "obscenities" but I also don't know exactly how to spell it, so I picked a spell check suggestion without looking too closely at what I was picking, apparently. "Obstinacies..." Good lord!

Thank you for pointing that out :) English is indeed not my first language, but I like to take pride in my command of it. And yes, ugly mistakes like that are well worth pointing out.
Of all the things I've lost,
I think I miss my mind the most.

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2013, 02:27:42 PM »
You are correct, Tenzhi. I read what you said and I was like "But wait, that's what I said!" Then I looked at you quote and was like *headdesk*. Gah! I should have known better than that, and I think I know how that happened. I'm something of a sloppy typist, so I rely on Firefox spell check a lot. However, when I misspell a word bad enough, spell check can't figure out what I meant to say, or it simply misunderstands and tosses me a suggestion that has nothing to do with the actual word. I'm sure I typed "obscenities" but I also don't know exactly how to spell it, so I picked a spell check suggestion without looking too closely at what I was picking, apparently. "Obstinacies..." Good lord!

Thank you for pointing that out :) English is indeed not my first language, but I like to take pride in my command of it. And yes, ugly mistakes like that are well worth pointing out.
Since you can come across as being somewhat stubborn on occasion i would tend to say that "spewing obstinacies" is not completely inappropriate.  ;) Nonetheless your English is generally far better than the average native user.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Samuel Tow

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2013, 02:35:27 PM »
Thank you! :)

And yes, stubborn is quite accurate. I guess it comes with being argumentative and a quick typist so that the actual investment in making a long-winded post isn't that great. Plus, constructing an argument is fun, especially on an interesting subject like the Fatalism of modern gaming.
Of all the things I've lost,
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Knightslayer

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2013, 02:37:08 PM »
Q_Q spoilerbombed! I didn't know about D3 and Leah (I really liked her from what I played in the trial version)

Anyway... I blame the "2012 endtime" hype for the choice in theme the past couple years. Now that its blown over, maybe there will be a change.
Yeah, one of the first things I thought when I read that was "Thankfully I finished that game already!".
Anyway, more on topic - "dark" games have been on the rise for several years now, The Witcher games are pretty dark too, Fable definitely has its moments, and plenty of other games.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2013, 02:28:34 AM »
It seems that from the previews of the latest Iron Man, Star Trek and Superman movies, the kiddies there are convinced that dark = deep too.  /em facepalm.  There's three I will be skipping kaythanksbai
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

JWBullfrog

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2013, 04:00:36 AM »
I had to bail on the new Superman film when I heard that they were not going to use the John Williams theme.
 
How in the name of all that is decent and good can you not use the perfect music?
 
 
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Samuel Tow

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2013, 10:08:13 AM »
I had to bail on the new Superman film when I heard that they were not going to use the John Williams theme.
 
How in the name of all that is decent and good can you not use the perfect music?

Personally? I think it's because it implies high adventure, excitement and heroic imagery. That's not what sells these days, it seems. If you just have a true-blue good guy who believes in truth, justice and the American way, people will likely balk. It's not realistic, he has to have something which tortures him and makes him angry, he has to deal with the grey morality of super powers. You can't have it be a fun adventure!
Of all the things I've lost,
I think I miss my mind the most.

Tenzhi

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2013, 04:29:03 PM »
To me, the John Williams theme evokes an honest, heroic majesty born from loneliness and perforce maintaining that loneliness from on high.  For sounds of heroic adventure I look to the Timmverse series.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Lothic

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2013, 05:42:20 PM »
I had to bail on the new Superman film when I heard that they were not going to use the John Williams theme.
 
How in the name of all that is decent and good can you not use the perfect music?

There's no doubt that the John Williams theme music for Superman is very nice and became iconic in its own right.  But remember the Superman character had existed for 46 years -before- John scored the 1978 movie.  His music never was an indispensable element of the core Superman concept to begin with.

Sure I'll admit it might be weird to see a new Superman movie without Williams' involvement, but I'd hardly use that as an excuse to avoid seeing such a movie.  It's not like Williams is going to live forever and be able to write new music for new movies until the end of time anyway.  Besides he's probably fully locked into all the upcoming Star Wars projects for the next decade or so anyway - I doubt the people making the Supes movie can beat Disney money. ;)
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JWBullfrog

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2013, 01:10:54 AM »
Fair enough. Actually, I'm just a bit burned out on Superman films.
As long as somebody keeps making up stories for it, the City isn't gone.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2013, 01:12:00 AM »
If they wanted dark, they could just do the Doomsday story. But noooOOOOOooooo.... that would make it hard to do sequels, and everything has to make sequels now.

Tenzhi

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2013, 04:46:02 AM »
If they wanted dark, they could just do the Doomsday story. But noooOOOOOooooo.... that would make it hard to do sequels, and everything has to make sequels now.

Actually, I'd say the Death of Superman pretty much automatically leads into a sequel or sequels.  It goes right into Rise of the Supermen, and then the obligatory Return of Superman.
When you insult someone by calling them a "pig" or a "dog" you aren't maligning pigs and dogs everywhere.  The same is true of any term used as an insult.

Samuel Tow

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Re: Is it me, or are we in a "dark" age of gaming?
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2013, 02:32:25 PM »
Sure I'll admit it might be weird to see a new Superman movie without Williams' involvement, but I'd hardly use that as an excuse to avoid seeing such a movie.  It's not like Williams is going to live forever and be able to write new music for new movies until the end of time anyway.  Besides he's probably fully locked into all the upcoming Star Wars projects for the next decade or so anyway - I doubt the people making the Supes movie can beat Disney money. ;)

Well, to be fair, any Superman movie these days is suspect after the tripe that was the last one. No offence, but when Super Man is wearing the next best thing to earth tones, we're already starting off on the wrong foot. Even if Kevin Spacey playing Gene Hackman playing Lex Luthor is a lovely sight.
Of all the things I've lost,
I think I miss my mind the most.