Author Topic: Lore AMA 2014  (Read 41748 times)

JKPhage

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2014, 06:40:24 PM »
Yeah, it's weird because it almost seems like each Well is a being, that has underlings, but can also bestow its power somehow...

The way it's told is that each Well IS a sentient being. "The Source", a.k.a. the center of all power/potential/existence, is linked to the first Primordial, which is essentially a god-entity, and hence the focal point of all existance. Each sentient being has a link to The Source, allowing it to tap into the potential and power to achieve great feats (Not just super powers, but world-changing inventions, cultural revolutions, etc.), but allowing every intelligent being in the universe direct access to all the power of existance is not exactly a smart idea, so the Primordials assigned "Wells" (person sidenote: I really hope they would have come up with an official term for these beings to replace Well, because as a mythological aspect of the story it works, but in this context it sounds really dumb.) which were essentially trusted entities to serve as a sort of surge protector for a particular sentient species. It would hold the direct link to the Source, and all of the species would be linked to it, so it could control the flow of civilization and make it run smoothly, not develop too quickly, or let the truly insane become overly powerful, and occasionally it would grant great power to certain champions to help protect the world.

On the other side of the coin, you have the dimensionless, which were the interdimensional armies of the Primordials, who I personally assume would have roughly the same level of power as a Well themselves. One of the Dimensionless was assigned to each Well as a kind of watchdog to ensure that the Well didn't go insane (which we are assuming is the case with our own considering it empowered Tyrant as it's champion), and that it allowed society to progress smoothly. Prometheus was the watchdog to our own Well.

Essentially it boils down to the Well being a sentient entity that controls our link to the Source, which allows it to control how powerful the human race (or whatever respective species it is tethered to) actually is, and how far they can progress. It doesn't have any direct underlings per se, but if it imbues a being with great power then it is able to control that being to an extent.

As I gathered it, our own Well has kind of gone off his rocker and decided that the human race is it's tool to empower and then use against other Wells to grow in power, which sounds like what may have been the beginning of Batallion, so the path we were on was going to lead us to ascend and become our own Well with a direct link to the Source, which Prometheus doesn't like because he has a personal vendetta against the Wells and doesn't want a whole planet of them running around, so we'd have to take him out as well as Battalion. That would, in-turn, probably draw the attention of the True Rikti once the galaxy/universe-spanning force of Battalion is taken out, and probably draw the ire of the Dimensionless as well. As an Ascended, they would want to keep an eye on us, and surely some of them would do so aggressively, which would draw us into direct conflict with them, and by extension the Primordials as well.

Kind of a sucky lot in life that the gods of the universe are all either crazy or so out of touch that we have to overthrow our own source of power, become one ourselves and take our fight directly to the source of existance just to avoid the human race being wiped out or enslaved.

Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2014, 10:28:52 PM »
Here's my synthesized version, combining Baryonyx with other information, and extrapolating some additional gap-fillers.

All power and potential in existence is linked to a source, called "The Source."  One of the earliest, if not the earliest beings in the universe called the Primordials decided to control and shepherd how that power flowed to all other sentient beings by creating gateways to that power that sat between different species and the raw source.  They selected beings that they transformed into wellsprings of power connected to the source, called "Wells."  These Wells would each be attuned to a different species in the cosmos.  Because each Well becomes connected to a species, it begins to reflect the potential and character of that species as it also empowers them to achieve their destined potential.  This feedback is potentially dangerous and unpredictable so each Well was assigned a representative to act as its guardian and guide from among the Dimensionless, the representatives and foot soldiers of the Primordials.

The problem is that everyone has their own agendas.  The Primordials seem to want some level of control over the Source.  They don't care too much if other beings gain incarnate power, they just want to control the gateways to that power, thus their creation of the Wells.  Apparently only actual beings can act as conduits to the Source (probably it requires having some sort of connection to the source in the first place to become a well, so it cannot be simply a device of some kind) so the Primordials sort of "ascended" them into becoming wells.  But they still have some remnant of their original consciousness or will, if not all of it, and so the Wells themselves can have their own agenda as to how they provide power to their assigned beings.  This is further muddied by the wells being influenced by their assigned species in a kind of symbiosis.

I get the sense that Prometheus was once the guardian of a different well, one where the beings of that world eventually gained so much incarnate power they became the Greco-Roman gods and discarded Prometheus as being of no further use.  So now Prometheus is more wary of allowing humans to gain too much power too quickly, lest they become as arrogant and disrespectful.  I also get the sense that our Well could care less: its actually fearful of the Battalion, knowing so many Wells have fallen so far and knowing it is next on the Battalion's hit list, our Well is trying to build the most powerful army it can to repel the Battalion.  So much so it was willing to invest a large amount of power in Emperor Cole knowing he would continuously reinvest that power in building an ever stronger army, which our Well hoped would be able to repel the Battalion from Primal Earth.

For those who haven't put this all together, Rularuu is actually a more-or-less Ascended being that was once a different dimension's version of our Dream Doctor.  He eventually grew powerful enough to destroy his own dimension and consume its power.  He could then travel to other dimensions with other versions of himself, combine with that person, use him to consume that dimension, and then move on.  By doing this repeatedly he amassed so much power he was able to Ascend to a higher form.  What temporarily stopped him was our Dream Doctor, who was able to foresee his coming and repel him from our dimension.  It is this event that causes the Battalion to both take an interest in Earth, and also be wary of it as they do not know how we were able to repel such a being.

Given all that, I can see a way to avoid certain otherwise intractable problems with the backstory.  For example, if the Battalion has consumed hundreds if not thousands of wells, how can we hope to fight them?  Answer: Wells are not the source of power, they are only gateways to the Source.  By consuming them the Battalion has taken some of that power, but it has also closed doors to the Source.  With each well they close, they could be making the remaining wells brighter.  In other words, all the while the Battalion has been growing stronger, they may have been inadvertently making the remaining wells, like Primal Earth's Well, even stronger.  We might ironically have never had the levels of incarnate power we had, so quickly, and so pervasively on Earth if it wasn't for the Battalion concentrating the Source into fewer and fewer Wells.

So why are the True Rikti so (implied) powerful?  Because they are one of the older races in the galaxy, and they gained their power at a time when there were fewer Wells.  Fewer Wells, more powerful Wells.  They achieved their full potential at a time when very few beings were competing for the Source.  Their Well is bigger and brighter, which is another way of saying their connection to the Source is stronger and more powerful, as a result.  That's what makes them so dangerous: the older the race, the quicker they achieved their potential, the more powerful that race is likely to be.

And if the Battalion is making Primal Earth's well a little stronger as they consume other species, think of what they are doing to the True Rikti.  Which is why the True Rikti aren't trying to knock them off first.  They are letting the Battalion take care of the little fish, then they will swoop in and take out the few remaining big fish, and they will then end up with an *enormous* amount of power.

And most of the Dimensionless aren't really stepping in either, because even the True Rikti's plans aren't a direct threat to the Primordial's plans.  The only true threat to the Dimensionless and their Primordial masters would be Ascendeds like Rularuu and potentially Hamidon, who have somehow bypassed the game entirely and have the potential to connect directly with the Source, bringing them into parity with the Primordials.  They don't care who wants to be the top dog standing on the Incarnate/Wellspring molehill.  Anyone playing the Incarnate/Well game, even playing it to win by taking out all their competition, is playing the Primordial's game.  Rularuu and Hamidon aren't playing that game.

JKPhage

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2014, 02:12:30 AM »
Yeah, Arcana put it much better than I did, haha.

There are two points I'd like to correct though. Prometheus was stated to have been assigned as our Well's guardian, and the Greco-Roman gods were empowered champions of our own well. Prometheus is wary/distrustful of Wells because he views them as tools to empower their race to achieve their full potential, and when he stole/created the Flames of Prometheus to give to man and allow them to tap into the potential on their own, Zeus punished him for it using his power as the Well's champion, under direction of the Well. Ever since this he has been bitter and dislikes the power and authority that a Well seems to hold. This is why he expressly forbids us from ascending because he doesn't want more of them running around.

As for Battalion, I love the idea that by consuming a well they obtain all the currently achieved potential of that race but cut off further power from the source, making other Wells more powerful, however, it was heavily implied in-game that they had only consumed roughly a dozen other Wells as opposed to hundreds or thousands. The Drowning in Blood trial had us communicating with the old Shivans and they mention the "Dark Father" who has married "Mother" (i.e. Shiva), and though I can't rightly recall exactly where, this "Dark Father" is mentioned again, and described as wearing a crown tipped with 12 burning stars. Considering the revelation that Battalion would use Khallisti Wharf as a first strike target and use Shiva itself as a weapon, one can assume that the "Dark Father" is Battalion, leading one to believe that they have consumed 11-12 Wells, depending on whether one of those burning stars was it's original Well or not.

Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2014, 07:46:25 AM »
There are two points I'd like to correct though. Prometheus was stated to have been assigned as our Well's guardian, and the Greco-Roman gods were empowered champions of our own well. Prometheus is wary/distrustful of Wells because he views them as tools to empower their race to achieve their full potential, and when he stole/created the Flames of Prometheus to give to man and allow them to tap into the potential on their own, Zeus punished him for it using his power as the Well's champion, under direction of the Well. Ever since this he has been bitter and dislikes the power and authority that a Well seems to hold. This is why he expressly forbids us from ascending because he doesn't want more of them running around.

I did contradict that part of the story; your version is, as far as I know, canonical.  However, I've never been fully satisfied with it and its possible it suffers from unreliable narrator syndrome.  If the Greco-Roman gods were incarnate champions of the well, then that would imply that Emperor Cole was becoming as powerful as they were, if he wasn't already so.  And Prometheus sends by comparison only marginally empowered incarnates to bring him down.  That seems illogical that we could do that.  There's a power intransitivity problem of Zeus being more powerful than Prometheus, but Prometheus being Dimensionless and on the order of power of the Well itself.  Well > Zeus > Prometheus = Well. 


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As for Battalion, I love the idea that by consuming a well they obtain all the currently achieved potential of that race but cut off further power from the source, making other Wells more powerful, however, it was heavily implied in-game that they had only consumed roughly a dozen other Wells as opposed to hundreds or thousands. The Drowning in Blood trial had us communicating with the old Shivans and they mention the "Dark Father" who has married "Mother" (i.e. Shiva), and though I can't rightly recall exactly where, this "Dark Father" is mentioned again, and described as wearing a crown tipped with 12 burning stars. Considering the revelation that Battalion would use Khallisti Wharf as a first strike target and use Shiva itself as a weapon, one can assume that the "Dark Father" is Battalion, leading one to believe that they have consumed 11-12 Wells, depending on whether one of those burning stars was it's original Well or not.

I don't remember much about DiB.  But my assertion that the Battalion has conquered a lot of worlds is an inference combining two assumptions: one: they've been implied to have been doing this for a while and two: every race they conquer is a well they've consumed (they don't just conquer races and skip the well-consumption part generally).  The Battalion is spoken of as an almost legendary threat, enough to bring Nemesis back from a million years in the future where the Battalion has defeated basically everybody.  If they've only conquered eleven or twelve species, heck that's less destruction than many of my characters have been accused of.

JKPhage

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2014, 03:47:06 PM »
I did contradict that part of the story; your version is, as far as I know, canonical.  However, I've never been fully satisfied with it and its possible it suffers from unreliable narrator syndrome.  If the Greco-Roman gods were incarnate champions of the well, then that would imply that Emperor Cole was becoming as powerful as they were, if he wasn't already so.  And Prometheus sends by comparison only marginally empowered incarnates to bring him down.  That seems illogical that we could do that.  There's a power intransitivity problem of Zeus being more powerful than Prometheus, but Prometheus being Dimensionless and on the order of power of the Well itself.  Well > Zeus > Prometheus = Well.

I can see your point there. I always just assumed that while Cole might be on a level of power with Zeus himself, the sheer number of new Incarnates going after him would be able to offer up enough power to bring him down, and part of the battle with him was severing his connection to the well so he isn't that powerful anymore. *Shrug* My two cents. I'm certainly not trying to argue with you, haha.

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I don't remember much about DiB.  But my assertion that the Battalion has conquered a lot of worlds is an inference combining two assumptions: one: they've been implied to have been doing this for a while and two: every race they conquer is a well they've consumed (they don't just conquer races and skip the well-consumption part generally).  The Battalion is spoken of as an almost legendary threat, enough to bring Nemesis back from a million years in the future where the Battalion has defeated basically everybody.  If they've only conquered eleven or twelve species, heck that's less destruction than many of my characters have been accused of.

This one could potentially be explained in a slightly different manner. From the description the devs gave, Battalion foot soldiers are made up of the races they've subjugated wearing power armor, and they have some form of inter-galactic fleet. It's quite possible that the races/civilizations that they've subdued and "assimilated" were themselves space-faring conquerors. That would imply and incredibly advanced potential, meaning a powerful well in and of itself, and these races may have (possibly unknowingly) consumed other civilizations potential as well. So perhaps Battalion wields the power of more than 12 wells, but it's possible they did so by conquering twelve other space-faring species that themselves had more than a single wells worth of power. Again, just my own two cents as someone who loves super hero story telling. It's quite possible that the "12 stars" line was never meant to make it to live and only go there by accident, or that it would be retconned later. I suppose we'll never know now, unless some of the old team ends up back with us when the game comes back.

Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2014, 12:38:54 AM »
This one could potentially be explained in a slightly different manner. From the description the devs gave, Battalion foot soldiers are made up of the races they've subjugated wearing power armor, and they have some form of inter-galactic fleet. It's quite possible that the races/civilizations that they've subdued and "assimilated" were themselves space-faring conquerors. That would imply and incredibly advanced potential, meaning a powerful well in and of itself, and these races may have (possibly unknowingly) consumed other civilizations potential as well. So perhaps Battalion wields the power of more than 12 wells, but it's possible they did so by conquering twelve other space-faring species that themselves had more than a single wells worth of power.
That's an interesting notion.  In a related thought its also possible the twelve stars represent not just a raw count of the species they conquered, but certain special ones.  The Kheldians might be special, for example, because they specifically use Kheldians to drive their starship engines.  The Shivans might be special because they are used as the vanguard of their invasions.  Note the interesting distinction between how these two races are used compared to other races that were just assimilated into the Battalion armies.

darkgob

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2014, 12:58:50 AM »
This thread is really making me miss CoH and wish it hadn't gotten cut down in its prime.  Sounds like it was going some amazing places. :(

Sidenote: Arcana, how is it that I've only just now discovered The Immortal Game?  Nice work!

JKPhage

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2014, 03:47:59 AM »
That's an interesting notion.  In a related thought its also possible the twelve stars represent not just a raw count of the species they conquered, but certain special ones.  The Kheldians might be special, for example, because they specifically use Kheldians to drive their starship engines.  The Shivans might be special because they are used as the vanguard of their invasions.  Note the interesting distinction between how these two races are used compared to other races that were just assimilated into the Battalion armies.

Quite true. Things to keep in mind for future AMA for sure!

Just a sidenote: Did the current timeline Battalion subdue and use Kheldians as fuel for their ships, or was that a potential future event from Twilight's Son's timeline that hasn't yet come to pass yet in our timeline? And if it has already happened and Kheldians potential/well has been assimilated by Battalion, then what are the implications for Kheldian/Nictus heroes? Could they potentially be controlled by Battalion by proxy of their consumed well, or was it simply the potential of the well that was absorbed, leaving them as a race without a link to the Source, but free of Battalion's influence? Funny how such an elaborate and very illuminating answer can open up so many more questions. Oh, the places this story could go!

Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2014, 05:49:22 AM »
Sidenote: Arcana, how is it that I've only just now discovered The Immortal Game?  Nice work!

Thanks.  I'm actually wondering how I could incorporate the new AMA information into that story actually.  I still don't have the time to fully execute on it, but I have been doing some background thinking about how to flesh that story out into something a bit longer.  Knowing what I know now, as opposed to what I knew of the backstory at shutdown, there are certain things I would want to do differently, although I'm still surprised and relieved the core principles still work with the current backstory revelations, more or less.

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2014, 02:04:24 PM »
Quite true. Things to keep in mind for future AMA for sure!

Just a sidenote: Did the current timeline Battalion subdue and use Kheldians as fuel for their ships, or was that a potential future event from Twilight's Son's timeline that hasn't yet come to pass yet in our timeline? And if it has already happened and Kheldians potential/well has been assimilated by Battalion, then what are the implications for Kheldian/Nictus heroes? Could they potentially be controlled by Battalion by proxy of their consumed well, or was it simply the potential of the well that was absorbed, leaving them as a race without a link to the Source, but free of Battalion's influence? Funny how such an elaborate and very illuminating answer can open up so many more questions. Oh, the places this story could go!

In other AMA questions and the game, I'm pretty sure it's indicated that the future Battalion use the Kheldians as fuel. One AMA asked about the future Kheldian story line, and Positron said "they all get used as fuel except one, the end," but another dev chimed in with "the players probably would have been able to change that" (quotes paraphrased).
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Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2014, 05:48:38 PM »
In other AMA questions and the game, I'm pretty sure it's indicated that the future Battalion use the Kheldians as fuel. One AMA asked about the future Kheldian story line, and Positron said "they all get used as fuel except one, the end," but another dev chimed in with "the players probably would have been able to change that" (quotes paraphrased).
I assumed that while there are still many Kheldians scattered in the universe (including actual player-characters on Earth) the main homeworld of the Kheldians was already taken by the Battalion, because if it hadn't been yet why wouldn't Twilight's Son warn them?  Seems pretty sucky for Twilight's Son to join the Menders to save Earth, but not lift a finger to help his own people.

Its not like the Menders are operating under the Temporal Prime Directive or anything: they are clearly trying to change history (at least history from some of their perspectives, particularly Silos).

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2014, 07:41:18 PM »
Arcana,

Would you employ the "write the entire thing from scratch" for "rewrite the relevant parts"? Both methods have good and bad points.

For me, I favor the the "write the entire thing from scratch" method as it is much easier for me to catch small errors as I write then editing a year or so down the road.
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Zombie Hustler

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2014, 08:08:26 PM »
I assumed that while there are still many Kheldians scattered in the universe (including actual player-characters on Earth) the main homeworld of the Kheldians was already taken by the Battalion, because if it hadn't been yet why wouldn't Twilight's Son warn them?  Seems pretty sucky for Twilight's Son to join the Menders to save Earth, but not lift a finger to help his own people.

IIRC, there was some shadiness about Twilight's Son that wasn't ever completely revealed (or, at the very least, I recall someone- Silos?- calling into question Twilight's veracity and sincerity.)

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2014, 11:04:43 PM »
IIRC, there was some shadiness about Twilight's Son that wasn't ever completely revealed (or, at the very least, I recall someone- Silos?- calling into question Twilight's veracity and sincerity.)

The Letter Writer (ok, Dream Doctor, but at the time of unknown identity) reveals what may be the truth:

Quote from: The Dream Doctor
Before I go, I wish to reveal to you an ugly truth regarding Twilight's Son. He is, in fact, the last of his race, but that is because he sold the rest of his kind into slavery. Whether for his own gain or to escape their wrath, I do not know. Unfortunately for him, when the slave masters burned through the Kheldians, they came after him once more and he fled into the past. Perhaps he made yet another bargain with the masters, trading all the Kheldians of the past for his own survival.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Letters
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Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2014, 01:32:16 AM »
The Letter Writer (ok, Dream Doctor, but at the time of unknown identity) reveals what may be the truth:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Letters

The letter has been interpreted to mean that in a distant future Twilight Son betrays his kind, but it doesn't completely eliminate the possibility that while the Kheldians haven't been all consumed in our present time, the actual act of betrayal could have already happened by the present time.  If they are being used as power sources for the Battalion starships, it seems unlikely they could have all been consumed at the exact same moment in time.  It could have taken years, even centuries, before the last Kheldian (apart from The Last Kheldian) was consumed.

Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2014, 01:46:25 AM »
Arcana,

Would you employ the "write the entire thing from scratch" for "rewrite the relevant parts"? Both methods have good and bad points.

For me, I favor the the "write the entire thing from scratch" method as it is much easier for me to catch small errors as I write then editing a year or so down the road.

After this long, and with the benefit of a lot of time to think about new information, I would most likely rewrite from scratch, but with an eye to preserving as much of the original concept as possible.  I got a lot of good feedback on the first version from players and other readers, and so my thoughts about that story have changed significantly since I first wrote it, incorporating much of that original feedback.

With more time and more word count to play with, and knowing what I know now, I would have expanded on the complicated relationship between Rularuu and the Dream Doctor, for example.  I would have added more backstory on the nature of Incarnate power verses Ascension.  I would have delved deeper into the relationship between Cole and Hamidon.  Instead of focusing exclusively on Dream Doctor, Prometheus, and Silos I would have written more about how each got to that point in the story with more individualized backstory, for example adding more about Silos' relationship to Ouroboros and the Menders.  Today, I would add more about Prometheus relationship to the Dimensionless and the Source rather than being deliberately cagey about that.

There's a lot of interesting places you can go in the current backstory.

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2014, 05:19:47 PM »
Cole on a mad power trip or not didnt we have the quills of jocas temp.  The dagger brought dow Rularuu, so maybe a flock of us could stop a champion of a well
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JKPhage

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2014, 03:54:16 PM »
Cole on a mad power trip or not didnt we have the quills of jocas temp.  The dagger brought dow Rularuu, so maybe a flock of us could stop a champion of a well

Yeah, that was one of the things that I pointed out further up. Cole may have been the Champion, but even if we were ants compared to him, there were many of us, and we severed his connection to the well.

In another interesting side-thought I just had: Quills/Dagger of Jocas. Seems possible that this Jocas was an entity of some kind with the ability to sever a beings connection to the Source. Who or what was Jocas, and how did they gain such power? Perhaps Jocas is some kind of "fallen" Primordial? Perhaps an Anti-Existance Primoridial that exists as a balance to The Source and the First Primordial as some kind of cosmic devil figure? Pure speculation, but I'd love to know more about how these artifacts came to carry that specific name and power.

Eskreema

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2014, 09:20:02 PM »
My guess is the items of power were more or less tools of primordials each with a function in their society.  You could be right, but in my vision jocus would be more a security type being or enforcer.  In addition, other origins of power could likewise be represented - the antikythera mechanism for techies (or science, blurring the lines is good for creativity), pandoras box for magic that could give power.  Well, maybe not the wells are supposedly completely different than the OOP.  Anyway, Primordials remind me of the Celetrials in that each had a role even at levels of phenominal power.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 10:09:43 PM by Eskreema »
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Arcana

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Re: Lore AMA 2014
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2014, 08:12:13 AM »
Yeah, that was one of the things that I pointed out further up. Cole may have been the Champion, but even if we were ants compared to him, there were many of us, and we severed his connection to the well.

In another interesting side-thought I just had: Quills/Dagger of Jocas. Seems possible that this Jocas was an entity of some kind with the ability to sever a beings connection to the Source. Who or what was Jocas, and how did they gain such power? Perhaps Jocas is some kind of "fallen" Primordial? Perhaps an Anti-Existance Primoridial that exists as a balance to The Source and the First Primordial as some kind of cosmic devil figure? Pure speculation, but I'd love to know more about how these artifacts came to carry that specific name and power.

Add "Who was Jocas" to the 2015 Lore AMA list.

If memory serves, the Quills of Jocas was the Praetorian version of the Dagger of Jocas, and was recovered from the Praetorian version of the Shadow Shard (although that doesn't exactly make sense given what the Shadow Shard is) or a Praetorian analog to the Shadow Shard, and what it was described as doing was allowing Black Swan to cleave a persons Shadow spirit from their body, which she used to create her shadow-like minions.

Start putting two and two and two and two together, and it seems that these weapons of Jocas are somehow able to separate some essential "spirit" or "essence" from a person, and perhaps that is part of a person's connection to the Source.  Because it can separate a being from their Shadow selves, it could be used to break the connection from Rularuu to the Source, or Emperor Cole from the Well of the Furies.  Its probably not a very powerful weapon in and of itself, its just that its nature makes it particularly dangerous to specific kinds of beings.  Consider that it was used to destroy Diabolique ne Mot, but it wasn't used to defeat the Sentinel of Mot in the same trial.

Whatever it does, Silos is able to tamper with the Dagger to make it less effective against Rularuu so that when Dream Doctor used it against Rularuu it didn't kill him, it only trapped him in the Shadow Shard.  My guess is that when Silos altered the Dagger, he altered it so that instead of completely severing Rularuu's connection with the Source, it instead only shattered his connection with his own aspects, and in doing so Rularuu became split between the aspects of Rularuu - Ruladek, Chularn, Kuularth, Aloore, Uuralur, Lanaru, and Faathim (in The Immortal Game I used this basic theory as backstory to Rularuu).  I've always assumed that Rularuu wasn't so much trapped in the Shadow Shard physically as he was no longer able to wield singular purpose and leave the Shard because he was divided into those warring facets.

In any case, the fact that the Dagger of Jocas fails to kill Rularuu but kills Diabolique/Mot and Quills interfere with Emperor Cole's attempts to use his Lights of the Well suggest that the Dagger isn't a simple kill all incarnates weapon.  It affects different targets in different ways.  And in the Magisterium trial, the quills aren't specifically used against Cole, they are used against the lights he summons.  Although its described as "severing" his connection to the well, in fact the quills don't do that: they interfere with his ability to use lights, but in all other respects the quills do nothing to curb his sizeable incarnate power.  What they seem to do, converting gameplay into story, is specifically tap the Well's power directly with the lights.  Perhaps that is what weapons of Jocas do: they sever direct connections to sources of power.  When you *are* a being that is a direct connection to power, like an ascended god, the weapon of Jocas can kill.  When you tap that power directly, as Cole did with the Lights of the Well, the weapon can disrupt that connection.  But it doesn't do much to beings that possess normally acquired power, even incarnate power.  It doesn't affect Hamidon.  It doesn't affect the Sentinel of Mot.  It doesn't affect incarnate characters (at least not directly: it doesn't depower them permanently).  And if that is the case, it would also not likely be an effective weapon against the Battalion.  At least not directly.