Author Topic: The Tea Party what do they want?  (Read 9768 times)

Segev

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2013, 02:26:58 AM »
Oh, they happen. The Sequester has hit my own place of employment. But it still is overall better governance.

But the nation ran just fine through the shutdown. Some people were furloughed. Those same people got raises in the funding bill that ended the shutdown, and will be compensated for the time they didn't get to work with pay ANYWAY. It always happens. It may sting temporarily, but it's not the end of the world.

This is evidenced by the lengths to which the Administration had to go to in order to force the citizenry to feel pain in hopes of making them blame the Republicans and actually NOTICE that it was shut down. (Again: closing things that are fully privately funded but rent federal land, and SPENDING money to arm guards and put them in place to keep people out when the places are normally run more cheaply when open for business, and refusing to fund treatment for children with cancer even when special funding was passed for it by the Republican-controlled House.)

It may sting, but it's not nearly the disaster it's painted as. And the Tea Party is okay with putting up with it because it's better than destroying our economy and taxing ourselves into oblivion while spending trillions of dollars we don't have.

Kyriani

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2013, 02:53:46 AM »

JaguarX

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2013, 03:06:38 AM »
Oh, they happen. The Sequester has hit my own place of employment. But it still is overall better governance.

But the nation ran just fine through the shutdown. Some people were furloughed. Those same people got raises in the funding bill that ended the shutdown, and will be compensated for the time they didn't get to work with pay ANYWAY. It always happens. It may sting temporarily, but it's not the end of the world.

This is evidenced by the lengths to which the Administration had to go to in order to force the citizenry to feel pain in hopes of making them blame the Republicans and actually NOTICE that it was shut down. (Again: closing things that are fully privately funded but rent federal land, and SPENDING money to arm guards and put them in place to keep people out when the places are normally run more cheaply when open for business, and refusing to fund treatment for children with cancer even when special funding was passed for it by the Republican-controlled House.)

It may sting, but it's not nearly the disaster it's painted as. And the Tea Party is okay with putting up with it because it's better than destroying our economy and taxing ourselves into oblivion while spending trillions of dollars we don't have.

Indeed.

Don't think many people noticed the first furlough that happened from spring to august. And the people that got furloughed during that that time didn't get paid back.

Neither side is completely innocent. Democrats nor republicans/tea party. It takes in this case two to negotiate. Neither side was willing to back down or switch stance and thus the shutdown. At any moment prior to the shutdown, either side could have said alright we give up. But what would have been the costs? Some believe the issue they shutdown over is something that should have passed and many of those blame the republicans. Other thing what was trying to pass was nonsense and blame the democrats for it. And really are the people doing the voting going and voting according to wishes that the people they are supposed to be representing wishes? Or are they voting on it according to their own personal wishes? Have they even bothered to ask the people in a way that is not skewered to one way or another?

In the end though ,really, how important is it to find blame? To some pointing fingers is the most important thing in the world even above the actual issue at hand.

Sad part about it is that it wont affect Obama's career come election time. This is his second term anyways. The ones that have the most to lose is Republicans (whether or not it's their fault is moot.) And now that people lived through extended shutdown (compared to the one or two days in Clinton era) many don't care about the issue or that it's over or Obama care. They are looking for someone to place the blame on, deserved or not.

And the sad thing is that a lot of people don't care about politics or even bother to vote until something affects them personally. Many web sites cant even get a decent serious calm mature discussion about politics going because it ends up instead up in "it's the democrats fault." "NO it's the republicans fault." instead of the actual issue at hand that could affect both republican democrat independent Ralph Nader supporter equally.

And of course Republicans are not all clean either especially when it comes down to the homosexual thing which do antagonize many people. And of course people being people is not going to say much in the lines of "Tea party is ok overall even though they seem to want to wipe homosexuals off the face of the earth." Usually it's viewed as all or nothing. And that method is even viewed within people on something more mundane such as game forums. People don't like another person simply because they disagree over one issue regardless of everything else they said. But over that one issue, "That person is a troll who shouldn't be aloud to speak at all here."
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 03:20:47 AM by JaguarX »

Twisted Toon

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2013, 06:49:21 PM »
I will chime in with my opinion on how the government should function, in a a broad sense...and other thoughts.

Personally, I think the federal government should only be involved with issues that the individual states cannot deal with themselves. And continuing that line of thought, I also think that the state governments should only deal with things that the individual municipalities cannot deal with themselves. Of course, that pretty much will negate about 50% of the government's current function. You see, the individual municipalities should be the ones dealing with things like feeding and sheltering the homeless, educating the poor, basically, dealing with the individuals that have problems providing for themselves. The individual municipalities have a much better idea of who needs help and who doesn't, than any overarching federally controlled program. The best social assistance (not social security) comes from the people willing to help others because they want to help others. Not because they're forced to help others, via government taxes, or government mandates.

I do understand that the democrats want to help the "down-trodden" (or at least to be seen as doing so), But to truly help the down-trodden, you need to help them to help themselves. Not just give them free stuff because they're down-trodden. That is the problem I see with most of the government programs now. There is a lot of wasted money in programs that are designed, not to help the unfortunate to become self-providers, but to enable the unfortunate to continue to be unfortunate. Label me what you will, but that is one reason I will not give to charities. I refuse to willingly be a part of an organization that enables others to be less than self-sustaining. When I find a good charity that actually helps others without enabling them, I donate. Of course, if the unfortunate were to ever become self-providers, they wouldn't need the governments handouts, and some government employees would be out of a job.

As you can probably guess, I am not a democrat. I have been a registered Republican since I first registered to vote. That doesn't mean that I agree with all Republican ideas. And yeah, I lean towards the TEA party's basic principles. lower taxes, smaller government, balanced budget. Unfortunately, to accomplish any one of those goals, and especially the balanced budget, the average citizen of the country is going to take a hit somewhere. And, as we've seen in the last couple of elections, most people will vote for whomever will promise them free stuff, not the promise of a hard road to recovery.

As we all know, a free cupcake today beats a gourmet meal after a hard day's work.  <----sarcasm...mostly.
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JaguarX

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2013, 07:04:09 PM »
I will chime in with my opinion on how the government should function, in a a broad sense...and other thoughts.

Personally, I think the federal government should only be involved with issues that the individual states cannot deal with themselves. And continuing that line of thought, I also think that the state governments should only deal with things that the individual municipalities cannot deal with themselves. Of course, that pretty much will negate about 50% of the government's current function. You see, the individual municipalities should be the ones dealing with things like feeding and sheltering the homeless, educating the poor, basically, dealing with the individuals that have problems providing for themselves. The individual municipalities have a much better idea of who needs help and who doesn't, than any overarching federally controlled program. The best social assistance (not social security) comes from the people willing to help others because they want to help others. Not because they're forced to help others, via government taxes, or government mandates.

I do understand that the democrats want to help the "down-trodden" (or at least to be seen as doing so), But to truly help the down-trodden, you need to help them to help themselves. Not just give them free stuff because they're down-trodden. That is the problem I see with most of the government programs now. There is a lot of wasted money in programs that are designed, not to help the unfortunate to become self-providers, but to enable the unfortunate to continue to be unfortunate. Label me what you will, but that is one reason I will not give to charities. I refuse to willingly be a part of an organization that enables others to be less than self-sustaining. When I find a good charity that actually helps others without enabling them, I donate. Of course, if the unfortunate were to ever become self-providers, they wouldn't need the governments handouts, and some government employees would be out of a job.

As you can probably guess, I am not a democrat. I have been a registered Republican since I first registered to vote. That doesn't mean that I agree with all Republican ideas. And yeah, I lean towards the TEA party's basic principles. lower taxes, smaller government, balanced budget. Unfortunately, to accomplish any one of those goals, and especially the balanced budget, the average citizen of the country is going to take a hit somewhere. And, as we've seen in the last couple of elections, most people will vote for whomever will promise them free stuff, not the promise of a hard road to recovery.

As we all know, a free cupcake today beats a gourmet meal after a hard day's work.  <----sarcasm...mostly.

yeah, you make a good point, but that is also why simply leaving the less unfortunate to the mercy of givings of others will not work. Many people, especially those that never been in that position themselves, view the less unfortunate as overall a bunch of people that are just lazy and don't want to work and simply looking for a handout. Thus, they don't give to the homeless nor charity. Basically they wouldn't get hardly any assistance at all if left to the premise of people giving to people. Thus the point of the federal programs. Yeah there are some that fit the common descriptions but many simple came across hard times that they couldn't control i.e company needs to downsize and decide to operate in China. Thousands more now no job and cant feed their families but to those outside looking in, they are simple people who are looking for hand outs and don't want to work.

And of course everyone could simply open their own business and make their own millions, easier said then done. It's a reason why everyone cant do that. Because even with successful businesses, you need workers. Two unfortunately not everyone have the opportunity in the way of the required education and or the skill or talent to be successful in that route. School cost money and with no job hard to pay for school.

And people like to sit around and say, "They should go get a job." One that is assuming they haven't been trying and two most people on government assistance actually have full time jobs some used ot have full time jobs but due to cuts, got relegated to part time (lot of Walmart employees had this happen to them.). Only a small percentage of people actually abuse the system but that small percentage have painted the entire group. Just like one of the reasons why many fear the going away of those programs and leaving it in the hands of local and or citizens. The common view is that the ones that have re a greedy heartless bunch that rather pay very low wages to fill their own pockets and weork their employees until they starve to death and wont losea single bit of sleep. Sure there are some like that but majority are probably in between. But as long as the view that majority of people on assistance or need assistance are just a bunch of lazy drug addicts, then leaving it up to the charity of the citizens would be a very bad idea. We even had a person here among our boards hit hard times. I'm sure many people outside looking in on his situation think the same way about him as you think about the money used to help people. A total waste that should be banned. And if that was the way it worked he would have been up the creek without a paddle. Over something he had no control over.

Although there should be a more stringent process to where no one can just live generation after generation with no job on gov. assistance. And the people that actually need it can get it. AKA, better fraud control for sure. That is where the programs are really lacking.

On the flip side though, taxes if you think about it, lot of people pay for stuff that they never use or cant use. People without kids still have to pay for the tax part that covers schools. People who never been to jail still have to pay the money to feed and house the prisoners. People that don't even enjoy baseball still have to pay the taxes (in some cities like here) to cover the cost of the new stadium minor league team even though there is already a stadium and minor league team. And even have to pay for the roads in the area that many people never drive on. Even people that have to walk everywhere or choose to walk still must pay for the road tax while there is never no money for sidewalks to make walking less dangerous.

I think the municipal and local governments do or should know who needs the help better than the federal, but most don't have money themselves and are on *gasp* government handouts themselves. My god! If government assistance is banned, then what about the cities that take it, what about those corporations that take it, what about the banks and stuff? Wouldn't the economy crash?  Or should rich people be entitled to handouts but people who are hungry should not be?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 07:10:34 PM by JaguarX »

Segev

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2013, 08:04:53 PM »
Honestly? I don't think that we should HAVE money flowing from the Fed down to States and Cities. I can see an argument for emergency support, e.g. FEMA (though that itself is almost laugable due to poor implementation and political graft at the federal level combined with all the pork-barrel earmarks tied to every emergency relief bill), but if you have a systemic, long-term situation wherein States and Municipalities are taking IN money from the Fed., it's a serious problem that needs to be redressed. It means we're spending too much. It means we can't afford it. The Fed. is just big enough to fake it for longer and put us into deeper trouble when the reckoning comes due.

As for the "bigot" label, you'll note that any opposition to (as in GG's most recent example) the Gay Marriage agenda going exactly how that movement wants it to go is "bigotry." There's no room for discussion about it to their minds. If you're not 100% on board, you're a bigot, you're hateful, and any possible objections you might raise cannot possibly have root in anything other than hatred of gay people, and so not only can but must be ignored, impugned, and those speaking them belittled and marginalized as heretical hate-mongers.

So, no, the "you'll only get called a 'bigot' if you're advocating bigotry" argument doesn't hold water. The definition of "bigot" becomes "one who doesn't agree with my position on this issue," rather than "one who hates people for superficial reasons." Only a bigot would disagree, therefore if you disagree it means you're hateful. You can't possibly have any other reason, because you ARE a bigot for disagreeing, and bigots are hateful.

"I wouldn't call you a witch if you weren't acting like one," says a man to a woman. "Hey! I'm not being witchy!" she replies. "I'm just saying that you're wrong about--" "See? There you go, being a witch about this whole thing. Geeze, woman, can't you see that you're the problem here?"

It doesn't matter what she says or does; unless she agrees with the hypothetical man in the above example, the woman is being a "witch." And, since she's being an unreasonable witch about the whole thing, the man need not consider anything she says.

That's how the "bigot" label has become used in politics.

...I will stop now, lest I go into a longer tirade about how the Left is actually perpetuating bigotry while projecting it on the Right in order to sustain their power and create a perpetual underclass dependent on the Left.

CoyoteSeven

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2013, 08:26:27 PM »
As a Mexican-American, an atheist, a Socialist, and a member of the LGBT community, I'm everything the Tea Party fears. They wish I was dead.

The feeling is very mutual. I've had to deal with TeaBaggers personally. I won't do that anymore.  I would invite any right-wing nutters on this board to put me on ignore right now. Thanks!

 ;D

JaguarX

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2013, 08:35:40 PM »
Honestly? I don't think that we should HAVE money flowing from the Fed down to States and Cities. I can see an argument for emergency support, e.g. FEMA (though that itself is almost laugable due to poor implementation and political graft at the federal level combined with all the pork-barrel earmarks tied to every emergency relief bill), but if you have a systemic, long-term situation wherein States and Municipalities are taking IN money from the Fed., it's a serious problem that needs to be redressed. It means we're spending too much. It means we can't afford it. The Fed. is just big enough to fake it for longer and put us into deeper trouble when the reckoning comes due.

As for the "bigot" label, you'll note that any opposition to (as in GG's most recent example) the Gay Marriage agenda going exactly how that movement wants it to go is "bigotry." There's no room for discussion about it to their minds. If you're not 100% on board, you're a bigot, you're hateful, and any possible objections you might raise cannot possibly have root in anything other than hatred of gay people, and so not only can but must be ignored, impugned, and those speaking them belittled and marginalized as heretical hate-mongers.

So, no, the "you'll only get called a 'bigot' if you're advocating bigotry" argument doesn't hold water. The definition of "bigot" becomes "one who doesn't agree with my position on this issue," rather than "one who hates people for superficial reasons." Only a bigot would disagree, therefore if you disagree it means you're hateful. You can't possibly have any other reason, because you ARE a bigot for disagreeing, and bigots are hateful.

. "I wouldn't call you a witch if you weren't acting like one," says a man to a woman. "Hey! I'm not being witchy!" she replies. "I'm just saying that you're wrong about--" "See? There you go, being a witch about this whole thing. Geeze, woman, can't you see that you're the problem here?"

It doesn't matter what she says or does; unless she agrees with the hypothetical man in the above example, the woman is being a "witch." And, since she's being an unreasonable witch about the whole thing, the man need not consider anything she says.

That's how the "bigot" label has become used in politics.

...I will stop now, lest I go into a longer tirade about how the Left is actually perpetuating bigotry while projecting it on the Right in order to sustain their power and create a perpetual underclass dependent on the Left.

Ah yes that position. I seen that happen outside of politics recently. Of course the word isn't usually bigot but troll is substituted for the word bigot. And they say the same thing when dealing with trolls or those they perceive as trolls. "I wouldn't call you a trollif you weren't acting like one," says a man to a woman. "Hey! I'm not being a troll!" she replies. "I'm just saying that you're wrong about--" "See? There you go, being a troll about this whole thing. Geeze, woman, can't you see that you're the problem here?"

I think they should be allowed to get married just like any other citizen of course some see it as absolutely wrong for that to happen. Not that I am part of the gay community or partake, or quite frankly even care about the label of gay or straight or what not. They all are citizens to me. Who they choose to sleep with or are in love with, I don't give crap. But there simply haven't been many good reasons if any at all beyond the usual bible quotes and personal morals reasons I seen much. Most are simply recycled from the days of when slavery, women voting, interracial marriage issue, segregation days. When the question should be why discriminate and prevent a certain group of people from getting married if they are two consenting adults that can legally enter into a contract agreement?

 I think in the future this issue will be looked at how most view the deal of inter racial marriage was back in the day. The same arguments used against and for are being used. "It will destroy marriage."  "it will destroy the American family values." and etc. Yet today, inter racial marriage is allowed yet, don't seem like the world ended. It will happen eventually anyways and our children's children will look at this generation like we look at our grand parents and for some parents era and wonder "Was it really that big of a deal?"  Today in the now, of course it is. And while not opposition isn't bigotry, there have been some opposition that have been pure plain textbook bigotry. And then there have been some that over use the term bigotry just as some over use the term to describe any group or person that don't agree with their view.

Not to mention I think the federal government have bigger issues than spending so much time worried about what adult, consenting sleeps with who or what consenting adult. Let them be free and marry like any other citizen. How about this spending budget that is a big issue that can have a much more damaging effect on the citizens lives than who Bob next door sleeps with at night.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:45:36 PM by JaguarX »

CoyoteSeven

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2013, 08:46:10 PM »
So, no, the "you'll only get called a 'bigot' if you're advocating bigotry" argument doesn't hold water. The definition of "bigot" becomes "one who doesn't agree with my position on this issue," rather than "one who hates people for superficial reasons." Only a bigot would disagree, therefore if you disagree it means you're hateful. You can't possibly have any other reason, because you ARE a bigot for disagreeing, and bigots are hateful.

"I wouldn't call you a witch if you weren't acting like one," says a man to a woman. "Hey! I'm not being witchy!" she replies. "I'm just saying that you're wrong about--" "See? There you go, being a witch about this whole thing. Geeze, woman, can't you see that you're the problem here?"

Quote
...I will stop now, lest I go into a longer tirade about how the Left is actually perpetuating bigotry while projecting it on the Right in order to sustain their power and create a perpetual underclass dependent on the Left.

Too late.

You can't even see how much of a hypocrite you're being, there? You're essentially doing the thing that you're blaming a group of people for... on those exact same people. It's astounding.

LaughingAlex

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2013, 09:06:46 PM »
I hadn't read everything here, but I hope the far right here don't call me a liberal and I hope the far left don't go caling me a right winger, I prefer to be viewed as neither.

In economics, neither a "lessaze affair"(pure capitalism) nore a "command and control"(pure socialism) works.  On one end, people begin to take advantage of others in atrocious and stupid ways that only do damage to the economy on the whole as money ends up centralizing in fewer and fewer people, if they get to use that money to control the government in any way, you end up with a plutocracy, even if it's not publicly recognized as such.

On the other end, people get lazy, that much is clear if everyones paychecks are determined regardless of how well they really do, and ironically money ends up over-centralizing anyways, in this case it's who's running the economy who is doing that.  So pure socialism doesn't work either.

The funny thing is, this goes hand in hand with government, simply because it's almost no different than anarchy vs oligarchies.  Both paths lead to the same societies incapable of prospering whatsoever as money just ends up over-centralized.  The arguement of "trickle down economics" doesn't hold much water because of factors such as supply, demand and whatnot, and greed takes over to an extreme for people who have lots of money and power.  They won't hire people if they see no reason to when they are making profits as it is, heck, a monopoly doesn't hire beyond a point because they do NOT want to produce when they are already at a solid economic equilibrium of supply/demand.

Now I know people are wondering why I say anarchies and oligarchies lead to the same thing, the problem is that in anarchy, no government, the lack of any law and order or rules to go by leads people to do even stupider things than in a pure oligarchy, they'll steal from others, everyone ends up having to guard their assets 24/7, nothing can get done, so people beg someone to take charge.  Just the same in a pure oligarchy(which anarchies can lead to), the people controlling everything so much, the excessive micromanagement leads to squandering of everything, while at the same time no one has any real rights.

So the problem with the tea party?  90% of them are zealots, who cannot understand any of that.  In going to extremes, they cannot moderate themselves well enough, instead they get hostile at even people in the middle, such as myself, who'd rather a republic and an economy closer to the center, in the middle of pure capitalism or pure socialism.  Some things cannot self-regulate, honestly I don't think anything can, but the "fine touching" needed varies.  Many parts of an economy can be "let be", as lessaze affair in greek means, other things need to be watched a little more tightly, like health care for instance, because if it becomes about money, then sadly you end up with alot of cases where it's more profitable to NOT cure anything, but just treat it for 20-30 years and let it remain and cause more problems, which can impact other parts of an economy due to money being lost on it. 

Still other silly problems such as "lets not hire anyone because they have debt and a poor credit rating even though they have no criminal record" occur to without a law keeping such a stupid catch-22 policy from being followed.(not joking, that happens to me alot, even though i've a clean record some companies instantly assume that my college loans make me a desparate criminal, even though I am trying to get a job good enough to pay that debt off everyone just looks at that credit rating).

Regulations prevent things like that.

But some things still have to be banned outright due to actually having a negative impact on an economy or just being plain unethical and disturbing.  I could mention dozens of examples that are especially heinous but I won't here simply because it's common sense.  A minor example though, slavery is actually reported throughout history as having a negative impact on an economy, due to it's often hand-in-hand relation to an especially poor form of economics called plunder economics, also called Raubwirtschaft in german(or rapine), in which there is no real internal economy, but everything in it is stolen from somewhere else in some form or another(such as the backs of the slaves).  Such an economy was part of the path of excesses that lead to the destruction of the roman empire.

Regulations also guard against such atrocities.

I could even mention a pure lesaze affair(let it be) economy leading CEO's and corporations to adopt anti-competition practices and feudal practices such as preventing anyone from advancing the social ladder, just as much a command and control in excess may hire someone inept at someone for a higher position just cause he has seniority even though he hardly learned the job.  Again, going either way to far just defeats itself.  The case of credit rating in fact is a perfect case of feudalism; in order to get good jobs you need an education but no job really provides enough money to get it, so you go to college on loans, but then not having a perfect credit rating prevents you from getting the very jobs you went to college for, so your stuck with the bill and no way to pay it off simply because all the jobs that would pay it off are unavailable due to the credit rating.

Regulations in an economy designed to prevent unethical decisions or just stupid decisions are a good thing.  It's just extremists on both ends tend to, well, tear the efforts to get that middle ground where everyone can prosper down(watch law and order SVU if your somehow not sure what i'm talking about).  Thats why we got a republic and thats also why we had a number of regulations put in place in the 1940s by Rosevelt that shouldn't have been removed.  Republics work, as do economies in the middle, simply because it's fair for everyone in things such as opportunity to move and in terms of flexibility while also preventing unethical practices from being followed.

(a note, I know I am spelling lesaze incorrectly, but my spell checker doesn't seem to be helping me.)

Alot of what I mentioned here is basic but for the plunder economy reference;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raubwirtschaft

I know, it's on wikipedia but thats a form of economy that is a very lethal form of economy in so many ways it's actually kind of disturbing.  The roman empire was destroyed by that kind of economy.
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Golden Girl

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2013, 09:51:00 PM »
I think they should be allowed to get married just like any other citizen of course some see it as absolutely wrong for that to happen. Not that I am part of the gay community or partake, or quite frankly even care about the label of gay or straight or what not. They all are citizens to me. Who they choose to sleep with or are in love with, I don't give crap. But there simply haven't been many good reasons if any at all beyond the usual bible quotes and personal morals reasons I seen much. Most are simply recycled from the days of when slavery, women voting, interracial marriage issue, segregation days. When the question should be why discriminate and prevent a certain group of people from getting married if they are two consenting adults that can legally enter into a contract agreement?

I think in the future this issue will be looked at how most view the deal of inter racial marriage was back in the day. The same arguments used against and for are being used. "It will destroy marriage."  "it will destroy the American family values." and etc. Yet today, inter racial marriage is allowed yet, don't seem like the world ended. It will happen eventually anyways and our children's children will look at this generation like we look at our grand parents and for some parents era and wonder "Was it really that big of a deal?"  Today in the now, of course it is. And while not opposition isn't bigotry, there have been some opposition that have been pure plain textbook bigotry. And then there have been some that over use the term bigotry just as some over use the term to describe any group or person that don't agree with their view.

Not to mention I think the federal government have bigger issues than spending so much time worried about what adult, consenting sleeps with who or what consenting adult. Let them be free and marry like any other citizen. How about this spending budget that is a big issue that can have a much more damaging effect on the citizens lives than who Bob next door sleeps with at night.

The's the problem that all hate groups face - because, with hilarious irony, they're always in a minority themselves - hate is too extreme and requires way to much effort to appeal to normal people, so the all hate groups have to persuade enough normal people to agree with them to be able to sustain their influence - and the one thing that all these hate groups are terrified of the most is for those normal people to come into contact with the target that they want them to hate. As in the example you mentioned of inter-racial marriage, once normal people came into contact with it, the hate groups opposed to it  were left as an extremist minority - which is currently what we're seeing now with the issue of gay marriage - more and more Americans are coming into contact with gay couples, and realizing that they're also just normal people like them, so support for the anti-gay hate groups is beginning to shrink - we're past the tipping point now, and the only way is up from here for society, while for the hate groups the only way is down.
The biggest enemy for social conservatives is democracy, because it's based on the mechanic of change - which is why, for example, social conservatives in Iran have been much more successful in maintaining their influence than their fellow extremists in America - they don't have to deal with a democratic system. And that of course means that they're got a lot more options as a dictatorship when it comes to stopping normal Iranians coming into contact with the extremists' chosen target of "decadent" Western culture - they can ban and restrict and censor things in a way that's simply impossible to do in a democracy.
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LaughingAlex

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2013, 10:00:46 PM »
The's the problem that all hate groups face - because, with hilarious irony, they're always in a minority themselves - hate is too extreme and requires way to much effort to appeal to normal people, so the all hate groups have to persuade enough normal people to agree with them to be able to sustain their influence - and the one thing that all these hate groups are terrified of the most is for those normal people to come into contact with the target that they want them to hate. As in the example you mentioned of inter-racial marriage, once normal people came into contact with it, the hate groups opposed to it  were left as an extremist minority - which is currently what we're seeing now with the issue of gay marriage - more and more Americans are coming into contact with gay couples, and realizing that they're also just normal people like them, so support for the anti-gay hate groups is beginning to shrink - we're past the tipping point now, and the only way is up from here for society, while for the hate groups the only way is down.
The biggest enemy for social conservatives is democracy, because it's based on the mechanic of change - which is why, for example, social conservatives in Iran have been much more successful in maintaining their influence than their fellow extremists in America - they don't have to deal with a democratic system. And that of course means that they're got a lot more options as a dictatorship when it comes to stopping normal Iranians coming into contact with the extremists' chosen target of "decadent" Western culture - they can ban and restrict and censor things in a way that's simply impossible to do in a democracy.

You certainly speak alot of truth about that.  Extremists often rely on a very tight control, ironically as a result of the shoe-horn effect you see it from both sides.  Simply put most people when exposed to anything that isn't actually harmful such as inter-racial marriage or gay marriage and find the people involved are just normal people, actually people different in general tends to slowly wash away any amount of biggotry they person may have had.  Most studies show that to be the case, it's just extreme individuals are usually locked that way somehow such as a mental disorder causing it(often one that results in general xenophobia) or brainwashing.
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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2013, 10:03:49 PM »
The problem with the label "Hate Group" is the etymology of the word "Hate."

Be very careful throwing around inaccurate terms.

Hate is derived form a word that effectively means "To treat as an enemy."

Down that path lies destruction.
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LaughingAlex

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2013, 10:12:33 PM »
The problem with the label "Hate Group" is the etymology of the word "Hate."

Be very careful throwing around inaccurate terms.

Hate is derived form a word that effectively means "To treat as an enemy."

Down that path lies destruction.

Honestly one doesn't have to call extremist groups hate groups or even extremist groups, they often end up showing themselves to be that way on there own through some extreme action everyone not only dislikes or hates but causes alot of damage to everyone else and to themselves.
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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2013, 10:45:06 PM »
Honestly one doesn't have to call extremist groups hate groups or even extremist groups, they often end up showing themselves to be that way on there own through some extreme action everyone not only dislikes or hates but causes alot of damage to everyone else and to themselves.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing that extremism is a problem regardless of the cause it originated from, I'm simply cautioning that if one starts viewing groups who disagree with one's position as the enemy simply because they disagree, and not on account of their specific actions, there is little likelihood that the brakes can be safely applied to the situation. There's a reason why, to my Canadian perspective, the recent events in the US were nothing short of Cold-war style brinkmanship.

The problem is, that the designation of extremism is quite subjective. I am a moderate Conservative (though I have a great appreciation for the NDP) by Canadian reckoning, which would place me generally as a democrat in the United States. However, by American reckoning, I am an extremist simply because my political values are incredibly alien to the circumstances one would find in the US.

The first duty of a civilization that hopes for longevity is to its descendants, and it strikes me that almost too many have forgotten that detail.
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LaughingAlex

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2013, 11:06:57 PM »
Oh, I'm not disagreeing that extremism is a problem regardless of the cause it originated from, I'm simply cautioning that if one starts viewing groups who disagree with one's position as the enemy simply because they disagree, and not on account of their specific actions, there is little likelihood that the brakes can be safely applied to the situation. There's a reason why, to my Canadian perspective, the recent events in the US were nothing short of Cold-war style brinkmanship.

The problem is, that the designation of extremism is quite subjective. I am a moderate Conservative (though I have a great appreciation for the NDP) by Canadian reckoning, which would place me generally as a democrat in the United States. However, by American reckoning, I am an extremist simply because my political values are incredibly alien to the circumstances one would find in the US.

The first duty of a civilization that hopes for longevity is to its descendants, and it strikes me that almost too many have forgotten that detail.

Totally, the first point you make is one of the core aspects of extremism and how it tends to take root, the "black and white" view that ultimately endangers everyone in the end due to an uncompromising nature of such a view.  And given my first post here even mentions how both sides on the extremes may just label me as such even though I'm usually very neutral on most matters.
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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2013, 11:09:36 PM »
Totally, the first point you make is one of the core aspects of extremism and how it tends to take root, the "black and white" view that ultimately endangers everyone in the end due to an uncompromising nature of such a view.  And given my first post here even mentions how both sides on the extremes may just label me as such even though I'm usually very neutral on most matters.

Honestly, even though you and I appear to be on the same wavelength, I suspect there are several areas in which we'd be on opposite ends of the spectrum. For example, I have an exceptionally pragmatic perspective when it comes to politics, so nearly any argument that works on the basis of emotionalism or "fairness" just won't hold water with me if it isn't paired with sufficient amounts of empirical evidence.
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LaughingAlex

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2013, 11:17:17 PM »
Honestly, even though you and I appear to be on the same wavelength, I suspect there are several areas in which we'd be on opposite ends of the spectrum. For example, I have an exceptionally pragmatic perspective when it comes to politics, so nearly any argument that works on the basis of emotionalism or "fairness" just won't hold water with me if it isn't paired with sufficient amounts of empirical evidence.

In my case actually i'm fairly in the middle on that, in general I believe a middle-ground approach has to be used regarding a governmant or an economy simply because in the case of government, going to small in government ironically leads to much more controls that people may not want just as much as going to large, in the case of no government at all in fact I believe it'd actually end up with someone taking control anyways.  The same goes for the economy as I'd said in an earlier post, to little regulation can lead to the economy overcentralizing and everything just degrading for the non-wealthy just as much as an economy that's over controlled in which those controlling it just over-centralize it on themselves.  Much of the evidence is really just in the things that happened recently with my countries economy for the "to little control" just as much as what happened to the soviet union in the case of "to much control".
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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2013, 11:30:17 PM »
In my case actually i'm fairly in the middle on that, in general I believe a middle-ground approach has to be used regarding a governmant or an economy simply because in the case of government, going to small in government ironically leads to much more controls that people may not want just as much as going to large, in the case of no government at all in fact I believe it'd actually end up with someone taking control anyways.  The same goes for the economy as I'd said in an earlier post, to little regulation can lead to the economy overcentralizing and everything just degrading for the non-wealthy just as much as an economy that's over controlled in which those controlling it just over-centralize it on themselves.  Much of the evidence is really just in the things that happened recently with my countries economy for the "to little control" just as much as what happened to the soviet union in the case of "to much control".

Yay Constitutional Monarchies, then.

We've got a decent blend of both, unfortunately in the wrong places as frequently as the right ones. However, I think I'd rather take the flaws of the Canadian system over the flaws in the United States, simply because we started out far more aggressively decentralized, and as such most of the current problems that exist in the US never had ground to start in up here. We do have some problems that can be considered much more disastrous than what is currently going on in the US, however. A good example of that would be the over-reliance on the economy of the United States as complicated by the fact that we have more barriers to trade *within* our borders, than we have with entire countries. It's easier to ship things out of one province through the United States to another than it is to simply fly it across the country for many different products.

There's a reason why the Canadian equivalent of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is "Peace, Order, and Good Government." You have no idea how difficult it is to explain what that last one means to some people. It really is nothing more complicated than what we consider effective governance in the corporate world, or in other words, running a business effectively and running a government effectively really ought not require a different set of skills.
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Ironwolf

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Re: The Tea Party what do they want?
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2013, 12:16:24 AM »