Deja Vu

[TonyV]

Auto Assault (RIP, September 1, 2007)

An article about NCsoft shutting down Auto Assault

On September 1st, 2007 NCSoft will officially close the Auto Assault servers. The news hit the community hard today as this post-apocalyptic car MMO meets an end shared by games like Earth and Beyond. It's rare for an MMO to shut down, but unfortunately for fans of the game, NCSoft just didn't see it as good business sense.

"After a while it gets to the point where the return we're getting on what we're putting into it is just not matching up," NCSoft Director of Public Relations David Swofford told WarCry after the news hit. "We just didn't have that many people in the service."

According to Swofford, NCSoft owns the Auto Assault intellectual property. If that does not change before September 1st, there is no legal way that the game can continue on. However, hope may not be gone. A few years ago, NetDevil opted to run their niche space MMO Jumpgate themselves after it found only a moderate audience.

Swofford told us that no one at NCSoft will lose their jobs as a result of this move. He was unable to comment on what chances the game might have of being sold back to NetDevil and would only say that at this time they plan to close the game on September 1st and that is all.

NetDevil could not be reached for comment at the time of publish.

Eventually, NetDevil did talk (Scott Brown, CEO)

NetDevil has no plans to salvage their automobile MMORPG Auto Assault, according to CEO Scott Brown. Publisher NCSoft announced early this week that after an inglorious year and four months of commercial service they will close the doors on August 31st of this year.

"We talked about it and sort of left it where it is," Brown told WarCry in a phone interview late Thursday. "We just couldn't come to an agreement."

NCSoft owns the intellectual property that is Auto Assault. This means they own the name, the story, the idea, the art and anything that directly relates to the game. The code-base and engine that power the game remain the property of NetDevil.

"We are certainly looking at other ways we can use what we do own," Brown added.

Brown added that no jobs would be lost as a result of NCSoft's decision. NetDevil still has Jumpgate in active service and development continues on an update. They're also working on LEGO Universe and Warmonger. Nonetheless, the Colorado based developer put a lot of time into the project.

"We poured our life into that thing," Brown admitted. "We thought it was a cool idea... for whatever reason it didn't take."

The experience did provide them with a wealth of lessons that Brown believes can only help its future projects.

"[Good development] is focusing on a few things and getting them until [they're] great," he told us. He admitted that with Auto Assault they tried to do a lot of systems and then improved them slowly over time. In future projects, they're going to focus in on each system and make it hum before they move on. For him, this is the key to development, especially on the scale of MMOs.

He also mentioned that the company bares no ill-will towards their former publisher NCSoft. There simply wasn't a market for the project and if the chance arose, NetDevil would work with NCSoft again.

However, another lesson NetDevil took from Auto Assault is how to better work that kind of relationship. In future developer-publisher agreements they'll ensure that both parties have the proper incentives that make the project work.

Brown's comments appear to dash any last hope that Auto Assault could be saved. It will close its doors permanently at the end of August.

Dungeon Runners (RIP, January 1, 2010)

Announcement of layoffs at NCsoft Austin.  (Does anyone doubt where this is going?)

"We are announcing that 21 positions are being eliminated in the Austin office of NCsoft in the area of product development," an NCsoft representative told GameSpot. "Primarily this is related to products which we have not previously announced and were in prototype phases. We are also cutting some positions on the Dungeon Runners team after deciding not to port the client to other platforms at this time."

Playing down the impact that this will have on NCsoft Austin, the representative noted that the staff reductions represent only about 6 percent of the studio's total workforce, which stands at around 300. The rep also flatly denied allegations that the Tabula Rasa team will be impacted by the layoffs. As part of NCsoft's Q2 earnings report earlier today, the publisher revealed that during the three-month period ended June 30, the Richard Garriott-led sci-fi MMOG had generated just $1.9 million of the publisher's $78 million total haul.

From the shutdown notice on NCsoft's site.  Gee, I wonder why they had been whittled down to a three-man team?  Oh yeah, that's right, because NCsoft laid off their developers.  Funny how that works, but I digress...

Yes, that's right. Dungeon Runners is shutting down on January 1, 2010. The full scoop follows.

Dear Dungeon Runner,

Have you ever had to give bad news to someone before? Sure you have! I've found that the best way to give bad news is to make a "crap sandwich" out of it. You know... you say something nice, drop the bad news bomb, then say something else nice. Sound like fun? Let's do it then!

First, something nice! I've really enjoyed working on Dungeon Runners for the past three years. I've come to know many of you personally and have, without a doubt, had the best time in my nearly 20 year game development career working and playing with you guys! You are dedicated, passionate players that have really helped us to make Dungeon Runners what it is today. Awesome players for an awesome game! Kudos!

Now, it's time for the bad news. Dungeon Runners just isn't cutting the mustard. If she were a ship, she'd be taking on water. Yeah, she's been taking on water for a long time now. Are my cryptic references too hard to decipher? The game just isn't profitable. And, the first rule of business is to be profitable! Man, I must have missed that day in business school... but I digress.

We've been trying to figure out how to fix things for some time now. And, that's where things get sticky. We've got some ideas that could work. But, they're expensive to implement and pretty risky. Those two facts, coupled with the recent loss of some key developers, make achieving the success we seek pretty much out of the question.

As things stand now, we're a three man team. Yeah, we lost two of our five man team recently. Not nearly enough manpower to get where we need to be. Rebuilding the team isn't really an option for various reasons. So, where does that leave us? Can you guess? Yes, that's right, we're going to be shutting Dungeon Runners down at the end of 2009. New Year's Eve to be exact.

Okay, now that the bad news is out of the way, let's get some more good news to make the sandwich complete. NCsoft has worked with us on a plan to compensate Dungeon Runners players. I think we've come up with a nice package for all players with paid memberships as of today (9/16/2009). You'll be getting a 30 day game time serial code and digital copies of City of Heroes Architect Edition and Guild Wars Prophecies. FREE games FTW! I know, it's not Dungeon Runners... but it's still frigging nice! Of course, any of you guys that need refunds for multiple-month membership purchases will be taken care of. And, as always, our helpful support staff will be available to help you with any issues you have.

Wait, there's even more good news! While we may be going out, we're going out in style, with a few changes to the game for the coming "End Time". Mythic loot will drop much more frequently. We're significantly reducing the cost of expensive King's Coin vendors. We're also quintupling the rate of XP gain to help you finish the game before year's end! Finally, we're adding a huge nuke to Townston that will blow up on New Year's and take the game down with it. There's more, but what fun is there in spilling all the beans? Oh, its gonna be a fun time till the end of the year! Loot finding, leveling madness. I may finally make it to level 100 myself now...

So, try not to be sad. It may be the end of Dungeon Runners, but it's not the end of the world! I'll still be working on the game until the very end. We can chat, reminisce and play DR until the lights go out.

See you in the game!

Stephen Nichols
DR's Producer & Lead Programmer

Exteel (RIP, September 1, 2010)

Posted on IAM-Interactive's web site following NCsoft's termination of the Exteel license to Exteel SEA:

Due to the termination of our contract with NCsoft, IAM INTERACTIVE is shutting down its game services within thirty days. Thus, all Lineage II and Exteel players are advised to use ALL their remaining iCOINs immediately.

We thank you for your unwavering support. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. You may direct all your concerns to our Customer Support and we will try our best to address them.
Thank you.

IAM INTERACTIVE MANAGEMENT

From the shutdown announcement posted July 27, 2010:

NCsoft has made the decision that the Exteel franchise is no longer financially viable. On September 1, 2010 at normal maintenance time, all Exteel servers maintained by NCsoft will shut down permanently.

This is a global shutdown, and not based on our server alone.

NCcoins will no longer be available for sale through our website, and Game Time Cards can no longer be used to add additional coins to any account. Current Game Time Cards that have not been applied can be used for any other NCsoft game. New game account and forum account creation will be disabled. We encourage anyone who has coins currently on your account to spend them as soon as possible. Please use all of your coins as no refunds will be provided.

In late August, we will have an event where all items will be available for 1 credit only so that everyone has the chance to experience any weapon, mech, build, etc that they ever could have wanted. Your coins should be used before that time. Additionally, we will be rewarding our loyal players who purchased NCcoins for the time and money they have invested in Exteel. More information about the loyalty rewards will be available in late August.

We know that we have many loyal players who love Exteel. Although this decision was a painful one, in the end it was a business decision that had to be made. We encourage everyone to play and have fun with the game that you love in the time you have left.

Tabula Rasa (RIP, February 28, 2009)

What is there not to say about this game?  First, one of the greatest game developers of all time "wrote" the following:

I am happy to finally be able to write the players and community of Tabula Rasa. We've been on quite a journey together. First in creating a game unlike any other on the MMO market, then growing a loyal community and finally launching the game and its players into space with Operation Immortality. It has been quite an unforgettable journey, one that I will treasure for the rest of my life.

I am very grateful to you loyal players for sticking around through what I think we can all honestly say was a rough launch. I thank the development team for pushing hard to get polish, updates and new content out every month since launch...a feat that I think is unusual in MMO development. They have a lot to be proud of.

Many of you probably wonder what my plans are, now that I have achieved the lifelong dream of going to space. Well, that unforgettable experience has sparked some new interests that I would like to devote my time and resources to. As such, I am leaving NCsoft to pursue those interests.

This news is difficult for me to deliver. I am honored to have worked with the team I've had and I'm grateful to the community who makes this game so unique and fun.

Thank you and farewell.

Richard "General British" Garriott

The only problems is Garriott did not actually write this, and he did not leave voluntarily; NCsoft fired him, resulting in Garriott losing $27 million that he was obligated to.  How obligated?  Obligated enough that he won his lawsuit again NCsoft.  NCsoft didn't like that, so they appealed, and Garriott won again:

It would be unjust to allow NCsoft to sit back during trial, observe Garriott's litigation strategy, and then demand a new trial on damages when it dislikes the verdict," the ruling reads. Garriott's former victory was not only upheld -- NCSoft now owes him $32 million with interest and attorney fees.

[Kheprera]

To me this means it is up to us.

We are the current voice not just for our beloved City of Heroes/City of Villains, but also for Auto Assault, Dungeon Runners, Exteel, Tabula Rasa, and all other games.

Not just NCSoft.  We are the consumers, the players... we are the voices of our characters and creations.  It is never "Just A Game."  These games aren't just an escape.  They are social mediums for millions of people.  We find companions, friends, lifemates.  From the United States to Korea to Great Britain and everything in between. We invest not just time and money, but our imaginations, creativity, and heart.

Facebook is just a place to journal your personal life.  MMOs make us brothers in arms.
 
We are the voice of one united front.  For CoH.  For Lineage.  For WoW.  Our voices must be united in chorus until we are one, and we are heard.

[Codewalker]

Please note: This above section actually goes *counter* to what Wikipedia says:  (source: Dungeon Runner wikipedia page)

Or it could just be Wikipedia being as accurate as ever. (/sarcasm)

Thanks for the note on the Dungeon Runner announcement dates. That's veeeeery interesting.

[Turjan]

I love it when I don't even have to think any words up and can just cut and paste from their offical press releases

[unladenswallow]

I am familiar with all of these shutdowns but I knew next to nothing about circumstances surrounding their shut downs until people on this thread started referencing them. I still know very little but there appears to be at least some legitimate reasons for shutting down or at the very least trimming back the staff of some games. In the case of Tabula Rasa since NC Soft had their asses handed to them in a lawsuit over it's shutdown there would appear to be at least one huge illegitimate reason for shutting it down.

Has anyone here that has taken the time to research what happened during these shutdowns and found anything interesting that most people might miss by just perusing a few old articles about these shutdowns?

[TimtheEnchanter]

NCsoft had their asses handed to them over the removal of Richard Garriott and how that was handled and *not* the closure of Tabula Rasa. I was playing TR extensively when it was closed down, and in touch with a few of the support staff for it (I actually have a few of the dev staff on my facebook profile actually).

Wasn't the former done specifically to accomplish the latter?

[chaparralshrub]

Well, what we need to do is get the entire community to realize this pattern. Enough to never play another NCSoft game. Enough to get NCSoft itself to shut down. That way, somebody else can buy their IPs...

[chaparralshrub]

Yeah, I'm hopeful that somebody else could take the IP and run with it. And be smart enough (or charitable enough) to hire all of the non-evil people who still work for NCSoft, of whom I'm sure there are quite a few.

For example I doubt that the devs for Guild Wars are any worse people than the devs for CoH. If they lose their jobs, I want them to have new jobs quite soon as well - preferably working on GW, since it's probably their passion, again just like the devs for CoH.

[chaparralshrub]

Dont forget the GM's, server maintenance peeps, billing, and customer support people (they are employed by NCsoft and not by a dev studio).

According to Rae in another thread on there (buy the GM's pizza one), there are 160 people in the NC Austin offices doing these jobs. Just because they support the other NCsoft titles (and ours as well for now), doesn't mean that they should be out of work due to our pettiness.

Let 'em work for Cryptic. Let Cryptic inherit the whole office block!

[NecrotechMaster]

as its been mentioned in other threads i think labeling ncsoft as an MMO killer would be pretty justified at this point

compare it to other companies as well, ncsoft now has 5 shutdowns on them, while i rarely hear of shutdowns from other companies (the last one that i know of was hellgate: london which wasnt even an actual MMO until it was revived recently as Hellgate: Tokyo)

[SithRose]

For example I doubt that the devs for Guild Wars are any worse people than the devs for CoH. If they lose their jobs, I want them to have new jobs quite soon as well - preferably working on GW, since it's probably their passion, again just like the devs for CoH.

Some of them are very nice people indeed, easily in the same level as Positron and War Witch. I wouldn't want them to lose their jobs or the years of work they've put in on a really good game. And they're stuck in the same position as Carbine. It is not generally a happy-making situation for devs in that position right now.

It would not be appropriate to *deliberately* try to force NCSoft out of business. If it happens organically as a result of their behavior...well, that's another story entirely. It seems likely that ArenaNet could probably continue as an independent studio based on the strength of their products. If, of course, NCSoft didn't kill them. Which would be bad for several people I know.

[Zolgar]

as its been mentioned in other threads i think labeling ncsoft as an MMO killer would be pretty justified at this point

compare it to other companies as well, ncsoft now has 5 shutdowns on them, while i rarely hear of shutdowns from other companies (the last one that i know of was hellgate: london which wasnt even an actual MMO until it was revived recently as Hellgate: Tokyo)

According to Wikipedia (yes, I know), there's been 14 MMOs (not counting CoH) which have actually shut down- this does not count servers shutting down in some regions but not others.
Of those 14, NCSoft owned 4. In 2 months NCSoft will own a full 1/3rd of the MMOs that have shut down. In addition to this, NCSoft has closed down 2 more MMOs in Korea, that were under other publishers elsewhere in the world.

Yes, they are indeed THE MMO Killer.

[Victoria Victrix]

Under no circumstances do I want NCSoftcore put out of business.  I don't want more people kicked out of their jobs.  I don't want to see anyone else's game shut down.  I merely want them to become so uncomfortable with our cattleprod to their backsides that they sell CoH to someone who will care about it--and I want every game developer to finally "get it" that they are responsible to their customers and stop treating us like hummingbird-brained sheep that will just wander off to the next shiny.

[Mindscythe]

Under no circumstances do I want NCSoftcore put out of business.  I don't want more people kicked out of their jobs.  I don't want to see anyone else's game shut down.  I merely want them to become so uncomfortable with our cattleprod to their backsides that they sell CoH to someone who will care about it--and I want every game developer to finally "get it" that they are responsible to their customers and stop treating us like hummingbird-brained sheep that will just wander off to the next shiny.

Well said, and agreed. The traditional "video game" model/mentality doesn't hold up when you apply it to MMOs, but the game owners keep trying. It's as ridiculous as when the government tried to apply Broadcast indecency rules to the Internet.

[Technerdoc]

Looks like we didn't have really a chance in saving our game, but I still don't get it why they close all this MMOs. When it's time for Aion? How long will Wildstar be online? This game is already dead and isn't out so far.

Playing an NC-Soft game isn't a good idea when it's sure that they close it after X-years, not matter what happens. This works for a little time, but one day the people will realise this and there are so many MMOs out there that there is no reason to play a game without a future.

Right now Guild Wars 2 is going well, but this game is just boring. The people buy and play it because it dosn't have an monthly fee. Did they buy something from the shop? Did they all buy the Add-Ons? I'm not so sure about this. Closing a game with a a good community, supporting their game for years is just stupid no matter how old the game is, but it makes money. A lot of publishers will do everything to have a game with a community like City of Heroes, I'm sure. And they never ever try to sell the IP. Fire the entire team before trying this isn't a good strategy in selling a game IP.

But maybe we aren't clever enough to understand this...

[HEATSTROKE]

Tony, can you enlighten me on the purpose of this post? Are you reporting this somewhere > Is it going into an article ?

[Codewalker]

and I want every game developer to finally "get it" that they are responsible to their customers and stop treating us like hummingbird-brained sheep that will just wander off to the next shiny.

I can't blame game developers too much. After playing WoW for a few years and being fairly involved in that 'community', it certainly seems like the majority of MMO players really are hummingbird-brained sheep who are fickle and jump from one shiny game to the next, playing them only so long until they get bored, then moving to another.

CoH is something of an anomaly in that respect, having such a loyal core player base. The average maturity level seems to be quite a bit higher as well. It's a shame NCSoft didn't seem to recognize that or know what to do with it.

[HEATSTROKE]

I can't blame game developers too much. After playing WoW for a few years and being fairly involved in that 'community', it certainly seems like the majority of MMO players really are hummingbird-brained sheep who are fickle and jump from one shiny game to the next, playing them only so long until they get bored, then moving to another.

CoH is something of an anomaly in that respect, having such a loyal core player base. The average maturity level seems to be quite a bit higher as well. It's a shame NCSoft didn't seem to recognize that or know what to do with it.

Of they just didnt care... period...

[Turjan]

The thing that puzzles me the most is not the similarities between previously closed NCSoft titles and CoH, it's the differences.

In every case prior to CoH, NCSoft MMOs were closed on simple grounds of profitability. The Dungeon Runners team even said as much directly, same with Exteel. And given the many years and many, many millions of dollars Tabula Rasa cost to develop, there's simply no way it was ever going to claw that back (ironically, when it closed, it was pretty much perfected IMO, but that was definitely too little, waaaaay too late in business terms).

City of Heroes though...every bit of info we have says the game was profitable. Just chugging along perhaps, not breaking any records, but definitely PROFITABLE. So for that reason alone, the closure of CoH can't be lumped together with the other MMO bodies buried in NCSoft's back yard.

Being brutally honest, I can see - and sympathise (despite all my Mars Attacks and Yongary cartoons) - with NCSoft closing down Auto Assault, Exteel, Dungeon Runners and Tabula Rasa...and for me, THAT'S what makes me so angry about CoH. It's not the same situation at all.

And I suppose that's why I chose to use the Mars Attacks "shooting Congress" scene as the basis of that "total support - no, wait - you're all FIRED!" gag because to me it's the same : basically, "we come in peace...shoot to kill!". It's irrational, out of the blue, a complete 180, bipolar madness

[Omega Mark V]

Got a question, then a statement:

What is this post for? To remind us of the odds? I don't see much 'light at the end of the tunnel' anymore, and this post doesn't help that hope much. I'm still praying for our success, but that's about all I can do anymore.

As for my statement:

Since this post is entitled: "Deja Vu" I'm going to share my own dream that I remember concerning CoH; I believe it will be Deja Vu soon:

I was standing as my main character, Omega Mk. V, under Atlas's Statue. I was talking to one single person whom I don't remember, but I don't recall this happening before. This means the game had to be going yet in this Deja Vu dream, and this may mean CoH is going to survive, or this was a dream sometime in the next two months before the shutdown.

I still have not experienced this Deja-Vu-to-be yet, and this is the only hope I grasp onto.
As for a disclaimer, I've posted this message elsewhere before, but this topic is a better place for it.

I'm still hoping that this dream means our game will live on.

[Codewalker]

What is this post for?

Tony realized that Guy and eabrace both have higher post counts than him, and needed to do some padding.

[eabrace]

I wonder how much of a profit NCsoft could post in a single quarter if they only sold the IPs for every game they've buried so far to other developers.

Tony realized that Guy and eabrace both have higher post counts than him, and needed to do some padding.

Bwahaha!

[Piledriver]

CoH is something of an anomaly in that respect, having such a loyal core player base. The average maturity level seems to be quite a bit higher as well. It's a shame NCSoft didn't seem to recognize that or know what to do with it.

Most MMO games have a loyal and moderately mature "core." City of Heroes, unfortunately, was in a position that this was almost all we still had, due to having all the flighty players lured away by Champions Online and DCUO while Paragon were not given additional advertising to attract new players.

Free to play brought in more players, but maybe not many willing to pay at all. That just made it harder for us all to see how small our paying player base may have been, even as quite a bit more was being spent on development than before.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame F2P or the Paragon Market. I blame shortsighted executives who did not realize that the F2P model in City of Heroes was building up a future cash cow. All the money invested in 2012 would have come back to the company many times over from the sale of those same items in coming years.

For anyone wanting to purchase City of Heroes, this is a good selling point. Long-term, the "Freedom" version of the game has great income potential.

[eabrace]

Most MMO games have a loyal and moderately mature "core." City of Heroes, unfortunately, was in a position that this was almost all we still had, due to having all the flighty players lured away by Champions Online and DCUO while Paragon were not given additional advertising to attract new players.

Oddly enough, I never considered that to be "unfortunate". 

[SithRose]

100% behind this statement... hell, there is a World of Darkness MMO in development but CCP that i want to try out, not to mention as well Cyberpunk (CD Projekt RED). Now, if a Shadowrun/Earthdawn (more the former than the latter) MMO came out, oh yes... it is one of my favorite RPG's out there, and is one that I would love to see done. Yes, I know that Shadowrun Returns and Shadowrun Online are in development, and I *will* be playing them. Hell, Outland is game that is interesting me, along with a passing interest in Firefall.

Don't hold your breath on the WOD MMO. It's been licensed to a dreamware studio - one that's never actually finished making a game. I think it's going to wind up in the same place as the Stargate MMO did. (I may have mentioned that I don't actually think some elements of the World of Darkness will WORK in an MMO at all, specifically Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude, and the entire Mage: The Ascension line, among others.)

[Segev]

The unfortunate thing is the lack of new players to replace them. A community that grows content to have only its old guard because newbies are unknown/immature is a dying community.




I have to confess, I've been deeply curious how they're going to try to implement the oWoD Mage mechanics in any sort of videogame ever since I heard of the project. Curious...and pessimistic.

[SithRose]

The unfortunate thing is the lack of new players to replace them. A community that grows content to have only its old guard because newbies are unknown/immature is a dying community.

I have to confess, I've been deeply curious how they're going to try to implement the oWoD Mage mechanics in any sort of videogame ever since I heard of the project. Curious...and pessimistic.

Color me VERY pessimistic on that one, really. I just can't think of a way to do dynamic magic in an MMO. Not in the "I'm going to use some Entropy on the car's tires to accelerate the rubber decomposition...Ooops, was that a coincidental flat tire?" sort of way. Or in the "I'm spilling some oil out the back of the car and putting a Forces spell on it to make it even MORE slippery" way.

Part of me wonders if that's not part of the reason that it's languishing...Dedicated Mage players will get very irked if they don't have the dynamic flexibility of OWOD Mage. (Creative players are an ST's nightmare in Mage. Creative players can take a shopping trip to Walmart and Home Depot and come out with the tools to totally destroy a Technocracy base...using nothing but coincidental magic.)

[Segev]

Particularly creative powergaming players can do that with nothing but a single Sphere of their choice, too. And get any effect they want out of it, phrased cleverly enough to force it through their chosen Sphere. (I've watched it done.)

[Atlantea]

Under no circumstances do I want NCSoftcore put out of business.  I don't want more people kicked out of their jobs.  I don't want to see anyone else's game shut down.  I merely want them to become so uncomfortable with our cattleprod to their backsides that they sell CoH to someone who will care about it--and I want every game developer to finally "get it" that they are responsible to their customers and stop treating us like hummingbird-brained sheep that will just wander off to the next shiny.

This definitely. I agree.

What I would say is this - If they are SO provincial minded that they misunderstand and mismanage the western market so VERY badly as to close a profitable game like CoH just to bring in another "grinder" like Boobs and Shame** that will undoubtedly fail like Aion and others like it. If the rumors and reports from the Glass Door are accurate and that they are retreating from the Western market to concentrate on their Korean games. If they decide to not sell the COH IP and continue to kill other games like Wildstar and even Guild Wars - not allow them to go to the players, but just KILL them as they've been doing...

Then I am all for SLAMMING THE DOOR on their sorry asses on the way out and LOCKING it so that they NEVER enter this market to do business here again!

More importantly, I want to keep spreading the word and educating the gamer world about NCsoft's practices so that this NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN. Not in this way. I want NCSoft's modus operandi as the MMOKiller to be so well known in the gaming world that they never get any studio to work with them again.

Or at BARE MINIMUM if a developer studio does work with them - to not allow themselves let NCSoft get their grubby hands on their IP and to keep their studios INDEPENDENT of them.

Developer studios like Cryptic, Arenanet and Carbine have to be allowed to remain as independent studios that own their OWN IP and only...

Okay bear with me... I'm not sure of the terminology, my knowledge of business practices begins to break down beyond a certain level - but what I'm trying to say is - allow a publisher like NCSoft (or SOE, or Perfect World, etc) whatever limited license or lease it needs to publish the game and THAT'S ALL. You DON'T get to own the IP, you DON'T get to own the studio and the creators!

Am I wrong? Is there some massive flaw in my thinking here? Or is this a goal and a sea-change in the industry that is worth working towards?

If I'm right, then I think we are just the motivated sorts of (mostly) mature level-headed people to get it started.

(**And despite the ridiculous objectification of the females and the general misogyny on display, I do think it will be the gameplay of the game itself that will ultimately do it in - though I am more than willing to mock it and give it a "push" in that direction via the social networks.)

[Codewalker]

Is Carbine actually independent though? Every time I've tried to find some information about the actual structure of the studio, I end up not finding anything relevant about them beyond some PR info.

[SithRose]

Question:

How comparable with the small studio vs publishing company model of video gaming is the movie publishing model?

Are they remotely similar? Because you see a lot of "Wingnut Films" distributed by New Line Cinema type things out there...

[Atlantea]

Tony, can you enlighten me on the purpose of this post? Are you reporting this somewhere > Is it going into an article ?

If there is one - I think it's sufficiently answered below.

The thing that puzzles me the most is not the similarities between previously closed NCSoft titles and CoH, it's the differences.

In every case prior to CoH, NCSoft MMOs were closed on simple grounds of profitability. The Dungeon Runners team even said as much directly, same with Exteel. And given the many years and many, many millions of dollars Tabula Rasa cost to develop, there's simply no way it was ever going to claw that back (ironically, when it closed, it was pretty much perfected IMO, but that was definitely too little, waaaaay too late in business terms).

City of Heroes though...every bit of info we have says the game was profitable. Just chugging along perhaps, not breaking any records, but definitely PROFITABLE. So for that reason alone, the closure of CoH can't be lumped together with the other MMO bodies buried in NCSoft's back yard.

Being brutally honest, I can see - and sympathise (despite all my Mars Attacks and Yongary cartoons) - with NCSoft closing down Auto Assault, Exteel, Dungeon Runners and Tabula Rasa...and for me, THAT'S what makes me so angry about CoH. It's not the same situation at all.

And I suppose that's why I chose to use the Mars Attacks "shooting Congress" scene as the basis of that "total support - no, wait - you're all FIRED!" gag because to me it's the same : basically, "we come in peace...shoot to kill!". It's irrational, out of the blue, a complete 180, bipolar madness

Indeed. And I think that's part of the point of Tony's post. To not only point out the practices of NCSoft and to establish their proven record of not just allowing games to "go away" but to KILL them outright by sitting on the IPs - but to ALSO point out how DIFFERENT the situation with City of Heroes is compared to those other games. And I totally agree, the behaviour of NCSoftcore is SO VERY STRANGE and NONSENSICAL even in a purely business sense that that is the reason we have been desperately trying to unravel that logic by going as far as researching Korean culture (the Kibun thread and other theories about "face-saving").

In each previous game murder, the fig-leaf of "well the game wasn't profitable anymore" could be applied. And most people - even players of the games themselves - would likely shrug and think along the lines of "I hate this, but it does make sense to a degree."  And just move on with their lives and to another game.

But that's NOT THE CASE with City of Heroes! In all 8+ years of operation, the game has NEVER been non-profitable to the best of anyone's knowledge or analysis! Does a developer studio like Paragon Studios stay as upbeat and positive and crank out the amount of content that they have been if they had ANY inkling that things were bad? No! War Witch (Melissa Bianco) said it best - "But we were doing so WELL!"

City may not have been as profitable as it could have been, but you look at the fact that with ZERO BUDGET for advertising over the last few years and depending almost ENTIRELY on word-of-mouth and the general good will of the gaming community at large (who EVEN NOW still hold City of Heroes as the STANDARD by which other superhero MMOs should be done!) and the fact that it was still in the black despite being an "old" game is nothing short of ASTOUNDING.

So yes - it is the DIFFERENCES as well as the similarities to other NCSoftcore MMO murders that are causing such shock and dismay.

If we aren't already making prominent mention of  these factors in our media outreach then we should be.

[Atlantea]

Is Carbine actually independent though? Every time I've tried to find some information about the actual structure of the studio, I end up not finding anything relevant about them beyond some PR info.

Unfortunately no. Carbine like Arenanet is wholly owned by NCsoft. Those were just studio names I could think of right off the top of my head while I was getting my thoughts down.

I should be clear - I use Arenanet and Carbine as an example of the way business and the licencing of IPs should NOT be done in the future so as to avoid what happened to City of Heroes and all the other games NCSoft has killed.

I am hoping that in the future they will find that no studio is willing to be "bought" by them for the reason of their track record. And that the best they will be able to do is negotiate for publishing the game and taking a percentage of the profits of doing so.

A better example of the way things can and should be done is this - The Secret World is made and developed by Funcomm. They have a publishing arrangement with EA (boo hiss!) where EA takes a percentage of the profits from actual retail box sales. That is - if you pick up the game and buy the physical product - the software disc and manual in the box - at your local Wal-Mart or game store, then EA gets some of that money.

But Funcomm is still an independent studio and ALSO has an arrangement to distribute the game via Steam download. If you buy and download the game through Steam, EA gets nothing at all! Which is the way I'll do it if I ever try out TSW - after the Mass Effect 3 debacle, Electronic Arts is ANOTHER game company that gets no money from me! In fact I had a bit of a scare when I saw the EA logo come up in the preview on Steam, but found out later about the actual state of things between Funcomm and EA (and Steam).

[Blackbird71]

Color me VERY pessimistic on that one, really. I just can't think of a way to do dynamic magic in an MMO. Not in the "I'm going to use some Entropy on the car's tires to accelerate the rubber decomposition...Ooops, was that a coincidental flat tire?" sort of way. Or in the "I'm spilling some oil out the back of the car and putting a Forces spell on it to make it even MORE slippery" way.

Part of me wonders if that's not part of the reason that it's languishing...Dedicated Mage players will get very irked if they don't have the dynamic flexibility of OWOD Mage. (Creative players are an ST's nightmare in Mage. Creative players can take a shopping trip to Walmart and Home Depot and come out with the tools to totally destroy a Technocracy base...using nothing but coincidental magic.)

Just an FYI, from everything I've read from CCP on the WoD MMO, it will only be including (at least at launch) aspects of the Vampire:  the Masquerade game; that is you will only be able to play as a vampire.  Werewolves and mages *may* be added later, but not with the intial game.

Sorry for the slight veer off topic!

[Flashtoo]

Just an FYI, from everything I've read from CCP on the WoD MMO, it will only be including (at least at launch) aspects of the Vampire:  the Masquerade game; that is you will only be able to play as a vampire.  Werewolves and mages *may* be added later, but not with the intial game.

Sorry for the slight veer off topic!

And as an additional aside for which I also apologize, if there's any company I trust to not fuck up vampires, it's CCP.

[SithRose]

I've heard different things regarding it. They may be wrong. I'll note that it's Eddy's job to be positive about things. He's very good at being positive about things. Even when he's dealing with complete twits arguing over minor, stupid rules calls. He's also a very good storyteller. He is a vast improvement over some of the people from White Wolf I could name. (I've played more than a few LARPs with Eddy. And had more than a few drinks with him. And late-night sleep-deprived plot-writing sessions...Some of our best plots came out of those, too.)

I'm not holding my breath on the MMO at any rate - if I want to play OWOD, I'll go to one of our local games. *grins* MUCH more fun, and I get to make pretty costumes for people.

[dwturducken]

Tony realized that Guy and eabrace both have higher post counts than him, and needed to do some padding.

Epic!

[SithRose]

If only there were people withing easy distance for me to get to do that now... hell, due to the GF's poor health, we have had to stop going to her friends RP group, and that is just 10 minutes drive away!

(Hell, I only manage to get to go to 4 LRP weekends a year, and that is with a lot of wangling, and I can still get called back at a moments notice).

We've only been able to get babysitting on a regular basis recently...before that, there wasn't much in the way of LARP going on at all. My husband and I switched off, which meant we both missed a lot of games.

We should probably try to get this thread back on the rails...Somehow...

[Victoria Victrix]

Well one thing I really would like to see...the artist responsible for those Boobs and Shame atrocities run down by angry beotch feminists and sewn permanently into a Jelly Woman suit and see how HE likes it.  I honestly would not be unhappy if my couple dozen forwards to feminist bloggers put him into a world of trouble in the US.

[Victoria Victrix]

No offence, but wrong thread?

No, I was just sort of expanding on "I don't want to see anyone from NCSoftcore lose their jobs."  The Boobs and Shame "artist" is someone I actually would like to see lose his job.  The more I look at his "art" the more furious I get on general principles.

[chaparralshrub]

No, I was just sort of expanding on "I don't want to see anyone from NCSoftcore lose their jobs."  The Boobs and Shame "artist" is someone I actually would like to see lose his job.  The more I look at his "art" the more furious I get on general principles.

The general impression I'm getting now is that NCSoft West is perfectly fine, and that it's NCSoft East that is the problem. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm somehow doubting now that the decision to kill CoH was made this side of the lake.

If that's the case, then the ideal situation might be to sever NCSoft West, along with all of its various IPs, from NCSoft East, but keep them both as viable (or not-so-viable, hopefully viable in NCSW's case) companies. I am now again thinking of Roosevelt's anti-trust legislation...

[MishaFox]

So let me see if I understand this right? Not only is NCSoft being stupid and poorly handling CoH but they've actually done the same crap at least 4 times before?

[Segev]

They have killed 4 other games. Those other games were losing money. There is not enough information given at this time to say whether it was something wrong with the game and its development or if NCSoft mishandled them into the red; I would hesitate to even suggest the latter as the former is very, very likely.

What makes the CoH situation so strange and so angering to people's sensibilities is that CoH was NOT losing money. It was earning a profit.

[Zolgar]

They have killed 4 other games. Those other games were losing money. There is not enough information given at this time to say whether it was something wrong with the game and its development or if NCSoft mishandled them into the red; I would hesitate to even suggest the latter as the former is very, very likely.

What makes the CoH situation so strange and so angering to people's sensibilities is that CoH was NOT losing money. It was earning a profit.

To be fair though, they didn't really put any effort in to saving those games.. they were just like "Welp, it's done."..

CoH on the other hand, was floundering and.. kinda starting to die.
They put effort in to saving it.
They made a move that's usually the 'death throes' of an MMO and made it Free to Play.
They focking REVIVED it with that (and awesome support from Paragon Studios)
.... then they killed it.

I mean seriously, much before the Incarnate stuff and Going Rogue, the outcry over the shutdown woulda been hella smaller... >.>

[Turjan]

They put effort in to saving it.
They made a move that's usually the 'death throes' of an MMO and made it Free to Play.
They focking REVIVED it with that (and awesome support from Paragon Studios)
.... then they killed it.

[Segev]

Much as I hate painting NCSoft as villainous (rather than well-meaning but paving the road to hell with those good intentions), if going free-to-play is usually "death throes" for a game, maybe they INTENDED it to kill it off, and were surprised when it didn't. Worse, maybe they assumed it was killing it off and just went ahead with the planned shutdown without seeing that it actually had turned around. (I doubt that last sentence is true. But it's a slight possibility.)

[Turjan]

Ah, but this F2P 'death throes' thing about MMOs is only a western perception, and not a totally valid one either. It's just that we're traditionally more used to monthly sub funded MMOs than any other business model.

F2P is a more recent introduction to the west - thanks to comapnies like...Nexon, who've been operating the model very successfully for years.

Curious thing here is that NCSoft were never proponents of F2P, either here or in Korea, which is why CoH going F2P was quite the surprise.
Even more curiously, they made CoH F2P 6 months before NCSoft CEO Kim sold 2/3 of his personal company stock to Nexon's boss...

So, months before Nexon entered the picture, NCSoft had already moved one of its longest running titles to a payment model that was more in keeping with its future partnership with Nexon.

And then NCSoft closes City of Heroes.
 
Nurse! Break out the thorazine! I think the CEO's lost the plot!!

[Knightslayer]

I can't blame game developers too much. After playing WoW for a few years and being fairly involved in that 'community', it certainly seems like the majority of MMO players really are hummingbird-brained sheep who are fickle and jump from one shiny game to the next, playing them only so long until they get bored, then moving to another.

*raises hand* I'm in that club of hummingbird-brained sheep. >.>
Though I usually have my "home" MMO, which is what CoH has been to me all this time.

100% behind this statement... hell, there is a World of Darkness MMO in development but CCP that i want to try out, not to mention as well Cyberpunk (CD Projekt RED). Now, if a Shadowrun/Earthdawn (more the former than the latter) MMO came out, oh yes... it is one of my favorite RPG's out there, and is one that I would love to see done. Yes, I know that Shadowrun Returns and Shadowrun Online are in development, and I *will* be playing them. Hell, Outland is game that is interesting me, along with a passing interest in Firefall.

Hell yeah, I'll be trying those too! Especially WoD.
For now though... shooting aliens in the face will have to suffice... *eyes Xcom: EU running in the background* 

[Knightslayer]

Ah, but this F2P 'death throes' thing about MMOs is only a western perception, and not a totally valid one either. It's just that we're traditionally more used to monthly sub funded MMOs than any other business model.

F2P is a more recent introduction to the west - thanks to comapnies like...Nexon, who've been operating the model very successfully for years.

Curious thing here is that NCSoft were never proponents of F2P, either here or in Korea, which is why CoH going F2P was quite the surprise.
Even more curiously, they made CoH F2P 6 months before NCSoft CEO Kim sold 2/3 of his personal company stock to Nexon's boss...

So, months before Nexon entered the picture, NCSoft had already moved one of its longest running titles to a payment model that was more in keeping with its future partnership with Nexon.

And then NCSoft closes City of Heroes.
 
Nurse! Break out the thorazine! I think the CEO's lost the plot!!

Yep, the F2P perception is a Western thing indeed, while it's true that it originally started as a desperate measure over here to save a dying game, for example DDO's relaunch as F2P - which according to some articles made them one of the most profitable MMO's the year after the conversion.
After seeing it CAN be profitable a lot of publishers followed suit, NCSoft being among them - with CoH as their guinea pig.
Which to me is more proof that Freedom didn't hurt their numbers, since after that "experiment" proved successful they immediately started converting all of their other titles that had been struggling - Lineage and Aion.

[Turjan]

After seeing it CAN be profitable a lot of publishers followed suit, NCSoft being among them - with CoH as their guinea pig.
Which to me is more proof that Freedom didn't hurt their numbers, since after that "experiment" proved successful they immediately started converting all of their other titles that had been struggling - Lineage and Aion.

Indeed, it's crazy isn't it?

Like I say, the more I look at it, the less reasons I see for shutting CoH down, and the more reasons I see for keeping it going!

[Zolgar]

I've hit the point that I believe they intended to shut CoH down going back a couple years, and decided to make it F2P to let it die of natural causes (like most MMOs that went F2P did prior) so there wouldn't be much complaint about it shutting down..
And instead, they saved it.. hah.

Had they pulled the plug before Going Rogue released? I bet this movement would barely have even started, because a lot of players would be like ".. eh, it was time."

[Knightslayer]

I've hit the point that I believe they intended to shut CoH down going back a couple years, and decided to make it F2P to let it die of natural causes (like most MMOs that went F2P did prior) so there wouldn't be much complaint about it shutting down..
And instead, they saved it.. hah.

Had they pulled the plug before Going Rogue released? I bet this movement would barely have even started, because a lot of players would be like ".. eh, it was time."

What MMO's are that? As far as I know most MMO's that switched from a subscription to a F2P one actually improved their numbers.
Other than that the MMO's that I know either started as F2P or never switched and simply shut down.

[Zolgar]

What MMO's are that? As far as I know most MMO's that switched from a subscription to a F2P one actually improved their numbers.
Other than that the MMO's that I know either started as F2P or never switched and simply shut down.

Shadowbane
Horizons (still running yes, but.. no one really knows why)

those are the only ones I can think of off the top, but there were several other MMOs that went F2P in their death throes.. some recovered.. others.. not so much.

[Knightslayer]

Shadowbane
Horizons (still running yes, but.. no one really knows why)

those are the only ones I can think of off the top, but there were several other MMOs that went F2P in their death throes.. some recovered.. others.. not so much.

Ah, Shadowbane - one of the MMO's I completely missed =/
On the bright side, if you liked the game;

On April 13, 2012, Chinese game company Changyou announced it had acquired the intellectual property rights and source code to Shadowbane with the intent of developing a new version of the game, which would be titled World of Shadowbane.

Also; http://massively.joystiq.com/tag/world-of-shadowbane/

And I remember zealously following Horizons for years when it was in development... and then when the game came out it was a mere shadow of the concept they had been marketting for years...

[Zolgar]

And I remember zealously following Horizons for years when it was in development... and then when the game came out it was a mere shadow of the concept they had been marketting for years...

I played it when it first released. It was cool, but had a lot of major flaws.... it's like they released it while it was still in beta. I left Horizons for CoH.