Author Topic: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here  (Read 37605 times)

JaguarX

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #100 on: December 21, 2012, 02:45:26 AM »
sounds like the rabbit hole goes very deep.

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #101 on: December 21, 2012, 02:48:05 AM »
As long as nc doesn't sinks and takes everything to it's death.
Cleverness would be to sell the IPs they have in the backyard and safe the money for a company relaunch after the whole affair ;)
NCSoft going in to receivership is probably the best chance for the IP to be sold.

...not holding my breath.

JaguarX

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #102 on: December 21, 2012, 02:56:38 AM »
and if they do go bankrupt, even though they have been known to keep their debt ratio low, although it went up this year, wouldn't it fall under Korean bankruptcy laws? How similar or different are their corporate laws when dealing with liquidating assets during bankruptcy  compared to here?


Victoria Victrix

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #103 on: December 21, 2012, 03:00:17 AM »
Well, this was all tin-foil-hat until the reporter for the Korean Times said "money laundering is what we have suspected them doing for some time," and the legal expert I talked to said I should at least take the next step and have it reported. 

If they are honest, they'll open their books and their back-records and nothing will come of this.  I happened to ask about it because I remember Dark Watcher having to work on the third-party store, swearing at it because he had to jam it in sideways, and wondering why they just couldn't do things the OLD way, where you bought all those things directly from NCSoft.  And I started to wonder--especially since NCSoft was so quick to clear out all of our accounts after shutdown--why would you break the game in order to do something you were already doing without breaking the game?
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Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2012, 03:03:08 AM »
If they are honest, they'll open their books and their back-records and nothing will come of this.  I happened to ask about it because I remember Dark Watcher having to work on the third-party store, swearing at it because he had to jam it in sideways, and wondering why they just couldn't do things the OLD way, where you bought all those things directly from NCSoft.  And I started to wonder--especially since NCSoft was so quick to clear out all of our accounts after shutdown--why would you break the game in order to do something you were already doing without breaking the game?

Im confused... was there an internal store capability set for CoH before it went F2P?
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2012, 03:15:08 AM »
Im confused... was there an internal store capability set for CoH before it went F2P?

The store was not in the game itself.  You bought your items--things like the Mutant Pack, the Magic Pack, that sort of thing--via the NCSoft store via your NCSoft account.  The upgrade was automatically applied as soon as you logged into your account.

I distinctly recall DW wondering why a third party store had to suddenly become involved, when it would have been more reasonable to link directly to your NCSoft Account.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Codewalker

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2012, 03:36:54 AM »
The store was not in the game itself.  You bought your items--things like the Mutant Pack, the Magic Pack, that sort of thing--via the NCSoft store via your NCSoft account.  The upgrade was automatically applied as soon as you logged into your account.

There was an in-game store as well, that you could buy things like character slots from. It worked a lot like the NCSoft web store, though (and may have very well just been a front end for it), where you just bought the item you wanted for $X instead of having to buy points first.

TonyV

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2012, 03:42:43 AM »
I'll be interested to see what, if anything, comes from this.  Do keep us informed of what's going on, as well as if you need anything.  If this is happening, aside from anything SaveCoH-related, it needs to stop.

Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2012, 03:46:58 AM »
There was an in-game store as well, that you could buy things like character slots from. It worked a lot like the NCSoft web store, though (and may have very well just been a front end for it), where you just bought the item you wanted for $X instead of having to buy points first.

Ah right, I forgot about that.

I could understand the desire for switching to an internal coin/point system but yea, still no much reason why it would not just tie up to the existing NCSoft store.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2012, 03:53:46 AM »
I'll be interested to see what, if anything, comes from this.  Do keep us informed of what's going on, as well as if you need anything.  If this is happening, aside from anything SaveCoH-related, it needs to stop.

At this point it is in the hands of law enforcement. Tony.  Not much we can do about it, or help it.  Whether it even gets looked at will depend on whoever gets assigned to look into it.

On the other hand...I think this comes under RICO.  Now, most things that come under RICO involve people with a lot of guns and a very bad attitude.  This, however, involves people in suits who are easily frightened.  If I were an agent that had a choice between a case that involved bad attitudes with guns, and a case that involved frightened suits, I know which one I would take.

"Lemme see...I can go after that drug warehouse with the 57 rottweilers and the thugs with the AR-15s...or I can take a team of accountants into an office building and lock the place down with lawyers...."

Edit: Replaced "Ricoh" with RICO. Hopefully the copier company had nothing to do with this. ;)  --TonyV
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 04:18:29 AM by TonyV »
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DarkCurrent

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2012, 04:15:37 AM »
So is there a hypothesis that Paragon was closed to cover up a money laundering scheme?

Victoria Victrix

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #111 on: December 21, 2012, 04:26:23 AM »
So is there a hypothesis that Paragon was closed to cover up a money laundering scheme?

Well...we know that Paragon was negotiating to buy itself out right up to the moment when suddenly they were closed down.

And we know the way the store was set up was wide open to money laundering.

And we know that as soon as the servers were shut off, NCSoft began wiping customer accounts.

We also know that almost as soon as the servers were shut off, NCSoft abruptly announced it was selling its western branch to itself in the form of a holding company, which would put another layer of obfuscation in there.

We also know that in Korea NCSoft is suspected of money laundering, although nothing has been proven.

That's what we know.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Codewalker

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #112 on: December 21, 2012, 04:32:26 AM »
Edit: Replaced "Ricoh" with RICO. Hopefully the copier company had nothing to do with this. ;)  --TonyV

Oh, so it was this guy all along?


Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #113 on: December 21, 2012, 04:38:24 AM »
Well...we know that Paragon was negotiating to buy itself out right up to the moment when suddenly they were closed down.

I did not know this tidbit... I thought the negotiations to buy itself out came after September 1st, as an attempt to save themselves. I was not aware that Paragon was looking to go indie... That is VERY interesting...
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

JaguarX

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #114 on: December 21, 2012, 04:40:05 AM »
Oh, so it was this guy all along?



I knew it!!! I never trusted that guy!

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #115 on: December 21, 2012, 04:42:50 AM »
Considering the story earlier in the year about NCSoft and Nexon buying Valve, I'm starting to think the business press in Korea is more rumor based than the British tabloid press.

But for it to be money laundering, the money, well part of it, needs to be returned to the party whose money is dirty.

Unless you are implying that NCSoft itself has a source of dirty money and is using it's own item stores to transfer it to itself via third party purchased point cards.  That doesn't make any sense since they get the money from point cards when they are purchased.  No need to open, apply and then close a F2P account.

But if it's a case that NCSoft is laundering other people's dirty money, then you haven't presented a way for NCSoft to funnel the now "clean" funds back to the source.

The only scenario that makes sense to me is for lets say bad people running a RMT group buying points with dirty money, using someone's item shop to turn that into virtual items than then can be sold to someone for legitimate cash.  However item shops tend to bind such items to an account so the item can't be transferred.  You would need an item like PLEX in Eve or Gems in GW2 that can be converted to in game cash and then do a RMT of game currency for real money and then they could kill the account once the transfer is done.  I have no idea about the item shops or proxy currency in their other games.  But that doesn't need NCSoft's knowledge or compliance to conduct such activities.

Example how it could work.  Right now the more trusted RMT groups are selling 50 gold in GW2 for $18-24 and the less trusted from $12-24 (looked up via Google).  Right now you can buy 2000 Gems for $25 in Walmart and other stores.  The in game exchange rate is roughly 1.25 - 1.5 gold per 100 gems so that's roughly costing $41-50 via the buy gem card method to create 50 gold.  Don't know if a 50-65% loss for getting your funds clean is a reasonable laundering fee to pay.  Seems a tad high.

And you are relaying that NCSoft is one someone's radar for knowingly doing this, considering the risk of putting themselves out of business forever if this is proven, why?  Because they need to prop up sales numbers for the quarter?

This is exactly what we don't want to be portrayed as, disgruntled players who are so upset about what NCSoft did that we start libeling them, even if we are only repeating a rumor from an unnamed source, as a "wretched hive of scum and villainy".  Because they closed us down they must actually be a money laundering front, for who?  Chinese Triads?  Japanese Yakuza?  Gnomes of Zurich?  SMOF? At some point this gets very silly and the degrees of separation from the tin foil hat crowd is getting uncomfortably close.  Now if you want the save COH movement to be lumped in with the anti-fluoride/anti-vaccination/ RDIF chips are the number of the beast type crowds then congratulations you're on the right track.  However if you want us to be thought of as a legitimate group looking to find a white knight to acquire the IP and bring the game back then we can't have arguably our most famous player suggesting illegal activity from the company we want to be receptive in selling off the IP.

I'm begging you here VV, this demonization of NCSoft is getting out of control.  It's one thing to say they are unethical and hypocritical over the closure of our game while it was still making money while claiming they are all about their gaming community and another to imply, on more than one occasion that the company in engaged in questionable activities that are considered illegal in most circles.
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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #116 on: December 21, 2012, 04:51:00 AM »
I distinctly recall DW wondering why a third party store had to suddenly become involved, when it would have been more reasonable to link directly to your NCSoft Account.
Because it's easier and quicker to hire a third party with an existing product and infrastructure that to hire the expertise to "roll your own".  Same reason most companies buy someone else's game engine and modify it than spend the time to create their own from scratch.

Why didn't Cryptic/Paragon create their own physics engine?
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downix

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2012, 05:11:18 AM »
Because it's easier and quicker to hire a third party with an existing product and infrastructure that to hire the expertise to "roll your own".  Same reason most companies buy someone else's game engine and modify it than spend the time to create their own from scratch.

Why didn't Cryptic/Paragon create their own physics engine?
Your argument actually makes the case against NCSoft stronger, you realize, as there was an already in place store structure.

FatherXmas

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2012, 05:17:19 AM »
Well...we know that Paragon was negotiating to buy itself out right up to the moment when suddenly they were closed down.
Point me to an article that says that, not what you were told on the DL from "insiders".

Quote
And we know the way the store was set up was wide open to money laundering.
We do?  You still haven't mention how the now clean money gets funneled back to it's "owners".  And your method doesn't make sense for NCSoft to clean their own dirty money (why is it dirty to begin with) through themselves (which seems incredibly stupid).

Quote
And we know that as soon as the servers were shut off, NCSoft began wiping customer accounts.
Why would/should they keep them?  Some of us would like our master accounts wiped as well.

Quote
We also know that almost as soon as the servers were shut off, NCSoft abruptly announced it was selling its western branch to itself in the form of a holding company, which would put another layer of obfuscation in there.
Perhaps because it was also part of the larger "refocusing" plan, which included the closure of Paragon and the layoffs at NC Interactive.  It's not like they would publish their restructuring plan for their competitors to see up front.  After all the glassdoor site is full of posts, even before the closure of Paragon, that the management of it's western presence was burdened with a lack of local control.  This may, Xenu forbid, actually be a step to allow NCSoft's western groups to dictate their own choices in marketing and customer management than simply be local language droids that can't provide cultural insight back to the mothership.

Quote
We also know that in Korea NCSoft is suspected of money laundering, although nothing has been proven.
Again hearsay.  A rumor from a source that told only you VV.

Quote
That's what we know.
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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2012, 05:36:07 AM »
Your argument actually makes the case against NCSoft stronger, you realize, as there was an already in place store structure.
Whose?  Are you talking NCoin?  They can't even share them between Aion and L2.  I also imagine a store infrastructure developed for the games that were simply language ported here would have an infrastructure designed by the home office and wouldn't be as easily integrated into a game that their developers back in Korea hadn't seen the codebase for.  Plus we don't know how different our player database in structure to the player databases for their Korean games.  A more intentionally generic solution for sale here may have been more straight forward than trying to wedge their existing store into our game, again due to database design issues.

ArenaNet has their own proxy currency cards for GW2 as well as master account system (as well as forum software, no vbulletin).  GW2 is not part of master account system that CoH was, Aion, L2 and GW1 are.  Sounds like ArenaNet wants to make sure they can sever ties cleanly (since it's also not NCSoft that is going represent GW2 in China).
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