MMORPG.COM / MMOFTW - the top stories of 2012

[Little Green Frog]

Perhaps I'm blind, but I don't see racism here on Titan.

It was here. Not the blatant, self aware racism, with torches and brown shirts, but the sneaky, unwitting one. The kind of racism that usually follows a conjunction in a sentence that starts with "I am not a racist, but...". One that is very hard to see for the person who articulates it, unless they are making conscious effort to quench it, but none less painful for the recipient.

Luckily there are only traces of it now. But month ago Titan was a much different place. Racist remarks were flying around, right in the open, and were widely accepted.

Every time someone has said that we've gone too far, and are sending a message that could be considered racist or any kind of "ist" at all, we have backtracked.

Every time someone has said that, stood by their words and did not back down after being called a unicorn, NCsoft spy, accused of being obsessed with political correctness and threatened with mod retaliation, you mean.

But it is true that the community did change for the better and that is nothing short of amazing.

[Codewalker]

I'm sorry you left under such unpleasant circumstances, Toast - I feel I should point out that unique visitors a day does not equal the community size though; not everyone checks daily, I myself do it.
Thousands is an extremely generous number (which people probably keep getting from the petition), but in total I also believe that a hundred falls far short of it.

I think Toast is looking at the SMF stats and misinterpreting them. Namely the "most online" count which is a measure of concurrent registered users online at once (and 'online' is pretty fuzzy for a stateless protocol like HTTP), or possibly the 'average per day' numbers, which IIRC show an average over the entire lifetime of the forum rather than a moving average. "Unique visitors per day" is not a statistic that the forum software makes publicly available.

I just did a quick query of the database. 601 unique registered accounts logged in to the forums yesterday. 107 of them decided to post something. That doesn't count people who lurk logged out and only log in when they want to post. 180 unique accounts have posted to the forums since 1/1/2013.

965 unique accounts posted to the forums in the month of December. 2,018 have logged in since 12/1/2012. It's 755 and 1,829, respectively, if you exclude everything before 12/5, since 12/1 was a fairly busy day.

[Colette]

I'd really like to know more about the story Toast alluded to. South Korea is not some repressive backwater, I've been there. The government and the people are modern and tolerant, maybe a smidge insular and provincial. I think the Koreans I know would take exception to what Toast's implying.

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face, or calling a Catholic a pedophile. There are just some things you don't do, or if you must, with a great deal of tact and delicacy. In sum, you caught hell because you were acting like an insensitive boor.

Maybe that's kinda like our equivalent of a "kibun." Dunno.

Finally to Titan in general, I wouldn't associate myself with a site that didn't measure up. The mods here do a great job of policing the rot. Perhaps that wasn't the case early on, I dunno. But it is now. Ms. Lackey and I have both abandoned our Internet anonymity for the sake of the cause. We have put our real-life reputations on the line. We have a stake in defending this site's good name.

So, if Toast isn't coming back, that's a shame and our loss. I dunno what this "kibun" he's talking about is, but let's hope the same mistake doesn't happen again. We still very much need Koreans or Korean-Americans sympathetic to our cause and eager to help us.

[P51mus]

I think Toast is looking at the SMF stats and misinterpreting them. Namely the "most online" count which is a measure of concurrent registered users online at once (and 'online' is pretty fuzzy for a stateless protocol like HTTP), or possibly the 'average per day' numbers, which IIRC show an average over the entire lifetime of the forum rather than a moving average. "Unique visitors per day" is not a statistic that the forum software makes publicly available.

I just did a quick query of the database. 601 unique registered accounts logged in to the forums yesterday. 107 of them decided to post something. That doesn't count people who lurk logged out and only log in when they want to post. 180 unique accounts have posted to the forums since 1/1/2013.

965 unique accounts posted to the forums in the month of December. 2,018 have logged in since 12/1/2012. It's 755 and 1,829, respectively, if you exclude everything before 12/5, since 12/1 was a fairly busy day.

There's a statistic that says "online today".  Is that like most online where it counts the highest number of concurrent users for the current day so far? And is definitely a smaller number than unique users that day.

[Codewalker]

There's a statistic that says "online today".  Is that like most online where it counts the highest number of concurrent users for the current day so far? And is definitely a smaller number than unique users that day.

Yes, that's exactly what it is -- the highest count of concurrent users that the board has seen so far today. I think the "online" timeout is somewhere around 10-15 minutes, so it's a fairly small window to be considered concurrent.

First thing in the morning when the daily stats roll over, it will be the exact same number as "Users Online"

[Little Green Frog]

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face, or calling a Catholic a pedophile. There are just some things you don't do, or if you must, with a great deal of tact and delicacy. In sum, you caught hell because you were acting like an insensitive boor.

How else was I supposed to call it? It was what it was. I knew I wouldn't be the most popular frog around for bringing it up, but sometimes there is simply no gentle way of saying things that matter.

[therain93]

I'd really like to know more about the story Toast alluded to. South Korea is not some repressive backwater, I've been there. The government and the people are modern and tolerant, maybe a smidge insular and provincial. I think the Koreans I know would take exception to what Toast's implying.

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face, or calling a Catholic a pedophile. There are just some things you don't do, or if you must, with a great deal of tact and delicacy. In sum, you caught hell because you were acting like an insensitive boor.

Maybe that's kinda like our equivalent of a "kibun." Dunno.

Finally to Titan in general, I wouldn't associate myself with a site that didn't measure up. The mods here do a great job of policing the rot. Perhaps that wasn't the case early on, I dunno. But it is now. Ms. Lackey and I have both abandoned our Internet anonymity for the sake of the cause. We have put our real-life reputations on the line. We have a stake in defending this site's good name.

So, if Toast isn't coming back, that's a shame and our loss. I dunno what this "kibun" he's talking about is, but let's hope the same mistake doesn't happen again. We still very much need Koreans or Korean-Americans sympathetic to our cause and eager to help us.

/e facepalm

Can we lock this thread please? -- At the very least, grounds would be that this is so way off base from the OP now. 

[Starsman]

Frog, you've mentioned you don't live in the US, so I'm gonna explain this. Folks in the US are very sensitive, because of a downright awful history. We're trying hard, this past election a minority-ethnicity president ran against a minority-creed candidate, so there's progress. Calling someone a racist here is pretty much like walking up to a German and calling him a Nazi to his face

The parallel would be adequate only if Germany is also still full of Nazis, because there is still a high level of racism in the states.

The racism shown in the forums, though, tends to be of a slight different variety.

Discrimination, sexism and racism all tend to come in 3 forms:

1) Superiority complex
2) Plain hate
3) Ignorance

The forms we see in the forums tend to be mostly pure ignorance. Racism via Ignorance is still very real, and in some cases worse, as they will do very offensive things and then dare get angry because someone took offense, offending more in the process. Like posting meme images dismissing the offeded, for instance.

Usually, when you are told something is racist, you are not supposed to argue it, you are supposed to apologize and perhaps admit you were not aware of it, then never do the same thing again.

[P51mus]

I am wondering why Burnt Toast never mentioned any of this kibun stuff in the kibun thread itself.  Being angry at people for not knowing what they're doing and refusing to tell them why exactly you're angry at them seems silly too.  Or at least, mentioning it vaguely for a really long amount of time and never mentioning it where the grievance originated until months after.

Whoever put Toast's name in red most likely had no idea how extreme kibun apparently is.  Or at least is to Toast.  All the talk about it I saw on that thread, if I remember correctly, mostly thought Kibun was just a mild/moderate shaming sort of thing.  Not some sort of family death threat or whatever.  So, cultural misunderstanding out of ignorance, which is pretty easy to do.  And the only way to get rid of ignorance is education, with a side dose of patience. 

And a note about Colbert: For anyone not yet aware, Colbert is not actually a hyperpatriotic crazy right wing American with a tv show.  He's a comedian making a parody of that.  He's playing a character.  If nothing else, if he picked up on it, it'd be amusing.  The Super PAC stuff he did last year was hilarious.

[Starsman]

Whoever put Toast's name in red most likely had no idea how extreme kibun apparently is.  Or at least is to Toast.

I think the individual was VERY aware.

All the talk about it I saw on that thread, if I remember correctly, mostly thought Kibun was just a mild/moderate shaming sort of thing.  Not some sort of family death threat or whatever.

I understand that individual also did dive into the death threat "jokes".

[WildFire15]

/e facepalm

Can we lock this thread please? -- At the very least, grounds would be that this is so way off base from the OP now.

I agree, this discussion isn't really getting us anywhere fast.

In an attempt to get back on topic, I'm kinda please CoH's closing was still considered a top story this year next to the maraud of stuff that's also happened. While he was wrong about the the game making no money, he's kept us in the public eye to a degree and we really need to remain known if we want to succeed.

[TimtheEnchanter]

Usually, when you are told something is racist, you are not supposed to argue it, you are supposed to apologize and perhaps admit you were not aware of it, then never do the same thing again.

While I do agree that there were racist comments flying around, the statement above, I can't completely get behind. We live in a world where being the victim has more benefits than being the perpetrator (which is a complete paradox of terms but is nevertheless true). And this "race to victim-hood" has caused people to find offense in things that are not only unintentionally offensive, but would also not be offensive were individuals not trying so hard to find a reason to be offended. The race card, the sex card, the religion card, the <insert historically-oppressed group of choice here> card, have all become so heavily abused in our world, that instead of reducing hate, they are adding to it by creating jealousy.

[P51mus]

I think the individual was VERY aware.

I understand that individual also did dive into the death threat "jokes".

Oh, ew.  I stayed away from the official forums in the last months because of how bad it got. So much trolling, almost no moderation.

[Colette]

I agree that this is getting us nowhere.

Whatever the insult was that alienated Toast, it was unfortunate. NCSoft's actions have already "poisoned the well" with MMOs in the English-speaking world; gamers are hesitating to invest their time and money in server-based subscription games, and I don't blame them.

If we could communicate more clearly and loudly to our counterparts in the Korean gaming community, then NCSoft would start to really feel the heat, and would be more likely to sell the IP.

But to accomplish that, we need Koreans here. Whatever happened to Toast, that mistake must not be repeated.

Point made, lets move on.

[Little Green Frog]

Whatever the insult was that alienated Toast, it was unfortunate. NCSoft's actions have already "poisoned the well" with MMOs in the English-speaking world;

Unfortunately they are still popular with us francophones, hispanophones, slavophones and whattaphones. Because the game closure clearly only affected people from english speaking countries.

I cannot help but marvel at your lack of cultural sensitivity.

[Starsman]

If we could communicate more clearly and loudly to our counterparts in the Korean gaming community, then NCSoft would start to really feel the heat, and would be more likely to sell the IP.

But to accomplish that, we need Koreans here. Whatever happened to Toast, that mistake must not be repeated.

Start by forgetting about their nationality and just thinking about them as plain people, instead of trying to hunt down cultural weapons to help you negotiate.

I am certain they have enough english speakers at their headquarters to understand the words that come out of our keyboards. Trying to look too much into the fact that they are Koreans is precisely the mistake that should not be repeated.

hispanophones

What did you just called me?!

 

[WildFire15]

Start by forgetting about their nationality and just thinking about them as plain people, instead of trying to hunt down cultural weapons to help you negotiate.

This multiple times over.

[TimtheEnchanter]

This multiple times over.

If there IS a cultural barrier there that is making communication less than optimal, is it racism to look for a way around it?

Is it an socially unacceptable "ism" if you find out your teacher likes oranges instead of apples and you give her an orange in the hopes of turning a C into a C+?

Fighting over cultural differences is bad. Ignoring cultural differences is not the opposite of fighting. It brings about its own problems.

If someone spits on your floor on planet Arakis, it's a sign of good faith. Anywhere else in the universe it's an insult. Ignoring cultural differences is bad. Understanding them is key.

[Starsman]

[Little Green Frog]

What did you just called me?!

 

Well, since I am here and you are talking to me from over there, you are clearly a telephone.

I like to think of myself as a smartphone. But I am probably a hydrophone. (It's funny, because I'm an amphibian.)