New efforts! -- metadiscussion

[Surelle]

This is not really comparable for several reasons.

1. Sony's MMOs are bundled into the "Station Pass" package, and therefore do not compete with one another for subscribers and revenue. 
2. MWM would be simultaneously maintaining a game that people love while trying to build a game to replace it.  MWM's resources are not comparable to Sony's.

...

Sony's Station Account pass used to cost a lot more money, $29.99 a month for years in fact, and there weren't many people on it.  Although I had 3 station accounts for years (for me and my two kids), most SOE players subbed directly to their favorite game and that was that.  I know this as Smokejumper said as much a few years ago, back before EQ2 (my other fav MMO besides CoH) went F2P.  SOE's mindset was that when people were burned out of one of their games, they would move to another of their games instead of leaving the "SOE family."  That's why even the additional pointy-eared MMOs like Vanguard were blended into the fold for so many years.

We don't know for sure if it's MWM at the helm of this attempted purchase, although it does seem the most likely.  In a way I wish it was Cryptic because Posi is there, other Paragon Studios peeps could probably slink back into the PWE architecture to help because it's a bigger company than MWM, and also love him or hate him Jack Emmert created the world we love so much.  Without him there would have been nothing at all to begin with.  I find it hard to believe he doesn't care about saving CoH.  But then PWE would be getting involved too; it isn't just Cryptic anymore, so it seems less likely. 

But remember last year when there was that big (PAX East?) MMO gaming panel and not only did Dave Georgeson from SOE and Jeff from Carbine but also Jack Emmert say they were all horrified that CoH closed down and that there should have been a way to keep it open?  Well, remember how Jack then told NCSoft to call him?  If you were on these boards at all back then you would have had to hear about it, because things just erupted here with potential campaigns discussed that could be targeted toward Jack, etc.  Well, it wasn't that long ago that the whole thing happened.  Maybe somebody *did* call.....  Probably not, but you never know.

My money's still on MWM though as they seem the most likely of all, and I think they'll run CoH on whatever shoestring budget they are forced to, to make sure it never closes down again, more so than a big company would.  So they've got that in their favor in my eyes.  They're CoH players just like us, and they are as devoted to the game as we are if not more so, because they're in the midst of trying like heck to build another one.  How CoH2 or CoT or their subsequent merger will ultimately pan out remains to be seen, but I have to say that personally I want CoH back most of all and I don't really care about the rest so much.

I just hope that if the time ever comes and CoH does get rezzed, the community comes together to financially back the new owners to the point where they can keep CoH running.

[Des_Tructive]

To add my 2 cents to the MWM theory:

There's nothing to stop them from getting the IP, bringing CoH online, and rebranding CoT to CoH2. With the incentives, all those CoH players would flock to CoT/CoH2.

The question on hand is if the expected playerbase would be worth the costs.

[Kaos Arcanna]

There would be some advantages if Cryptic bought the game. For one thing, they are more equipped to restore the game than any other studio still in existence. For another, Perfect World, from what I've heard, isn't as prone to shutting down games as NcSoft.

I find it unlikely that's the case though because Cryptic would have no plans to put a COH2 into another engine. They'd just whatever iteration of the Cryptic Engine exists post Neverwinter.

[Burnt Toast]

I hope it is an actual studio with some experience handling the return of CoH and not MWM. I know that's heresy to say on these forums, but MWM or the H&V group are the last two groups I would want handling the resurrection of CoH.

[Surelle]

I hope it is an actual studio with some experience handling the return of CoH and not MWM. I know that's heresy to say on these forums, but MWM or the H&V group are the last two groups I would want handling the resurrection of CoH.

If it is MWM, they've clearly either got A.) a lot more of a professional outfit going than people realize (for NCSoft to have taken them seriously thus far) or B.) they're a heck of a lot further away from a CoH rez/CoH2 than people on Facebook and these boards would like to think.  And I'd hope everyone wouldn't be totally going off the deep end here for months over next to nothing.

Either way, whomever it is, I wish them the best of luck and only want them to release information once it is really necessary, Facebook and information leakers be damned!

[dwturducken]

If it is MWM, they've clearly either got A.) a lot more of a professional outfit going than people realize (for NCSoft to have taken them seriously thus far) or B.) they're a heck of a lot further away from a CoH rez/CoH2 than people on Facebook and these boards would like to think.  And I'd hope everyone wouldn't be totally going off the deep end here for  months over next to nothing.

I think every person who pledged to the Kickstarter knows exactly how professional an outfit they are, as do the scores who wanted to but couldn't.

Anyway, is it Monday, yet?

[Fable]

On the MWM theory. Where would they get the money? From the kick starter? Would that even fly with the backers? They don't even pay the people that are making the game (from what I've read) you really think they'd have 500k+++ (I have no clue what it would cost) to buy the ip? I don't feel like that's very realistic. I think cryptic or some other company is a more plausible.

[Shifter]

I don't feel like that's very realistic. I think cryptic or some other company is a more plausible.

Cryptic having to provide technical competence? They made the game...

[Surelle]

On the MWM theory. Where would they get the money? From the kick starter? Would that even fly with the backers? They don't even pay the people that are making the game (from what I've read) you really think they'd have 500k+++ (I have no clue what it would cost) to buy the ip? I don't feel like that's very realistic. I think cryptic or some other company is a more plausible.

If it's MWM, perhaps they have additional financial backers.   ?  Cryptic does have the engine rights (they made it, ha ha), and Posi and Jack know the code (and maybe might even have some of the custom tools that were used and are purported to be missing now), and NCSoft has dealt with them before.  But like Fable said, why would they have to prove technical competence?  And as Kaos Arcana said, Cryptic would be much more likely to use the Neverwinter/Cryptic engine; they'd be almost guaranteed to use it, yeah.  It's the code they made and the code they know.   Why would they pay any money at all to license Unreal 4 when they could just use their own engine for free?  And besides, why would Ironwolf have passed the comment that Team Hail Mary was going to run CoH in maintenance mode only and not add to it?  Cryptic (especially with Posi there, and the potential to hire back some of the other Paragon Studios devs) would be able to add to their own game you'd think....   So I guess that kind of rules them out.

It's MWM that recently shifted CoT to the Unreal 4 engine.

Wouldn't it be funny if it was someone(s) totally out of left field?  But as they say in the medical world, when you hear hoofbeats, think of horses, not zebras....

Wouldn't it be the funniest if MWM and Cryptic (and even SCoRE) were all banding together to do this?   

[Fable]

All we have about them having to prove technical competence is Ironwolf saying so. We don't know to what extent or if it was even really the case. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything. I just think a company trying to put out their first MMO, with a team of volunteers, on a barebones budget has more to worry about than buying the game they're  trying to emulate (emulate for lack of a better term). I feel like they should think the same way. I get that it kinda makes some sense from a marketing stand point, but I just don't buy MWM buying CoH. It just doesn't add up to me.

But, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong and certainly wouldn't be the last. If you guys don't believe me I can get my wife on here and she'll tell you just often I'm wrong.

[Dal]

But then, if it is Cryptic, why would NCSoft require them to "prove" they can handle the game?  I don't know if this is a commonality in such transactions, but I think it is probably a smaller or lesser known group, which is not necessarily bad.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

If Missing Worlds Media turns out to be THeM, then I suspect that it's an agreement for the IP, rather than actually "turning the servers back on",  MWM has already invested time and money in their architecture, including a sweetheart deal for the Unreal Engine.  It would be short-sighted of MWM to throw all of that away to take over a game whose code and server architecture are unknown and undocumented.

Just so you know, many-many-many pages back in the New Efforts! thread, somewhere near the beginning, it was reported that the NewDev team had contacted NCsoft about acquiring the IP and NCsoft said "By the way, we also have an archive of the game's code at shutdown, would you be interested in buying that as well?" and the team basically said "Oh hell yes!" with the intention of getting the original game back up and running while transitioning the game to a new engine. They also found NCsoft's asking price to be thoroughly doable, which does make MWM seem fairly unlikely as it's a mostly volunteer effort being run on a shoestring budget. They've made some remarkable progress, but i can't imagine MWM would have the funds to also acquire CoH.
Regardless, the stated intention of the team currently bargaining is to get the original game up and running in at least maintenance mode while working on a revamped engine.

[Fable]

But then, if it is Cryptic, why would NCSoft require them to "prove" they can handle the game?  I don't know if this is a commonality in such transactions, but I think it is probably a smaller or lesser known group, which is not necessarily bad.

All we have about them having to prove technical competence is Ironwolf saying so. We don't know to what extent or if it was even really the case.

[HEATSTROKE]

I many be proven wrong.. but I highly doubt its MWM.. seriously..

[Wyrm]

I many be proven wrong.. but I highly doubt its MWM.. seriously..

I can think of lots of reasons why I would think it's unlikely to be MWM.  I mean, how would all the players who flocked to them as a way to stay clear of NCSoft feel about even an *attempt* to enter into business with them?  It seems like it would be even worse for MWM to try to make a deal with NC and fail.  About the only thing that makes me go, "Well, I guess it could be them" is the fact that with all this speculation, none of them have said, "It's not us."

[AlienOne]

What companies want are customers who pay for their products and services.  Period.   LEGO Universe had massive customer loyalty, and it failed because it didn't make money.  Loyalty is nice.  Good word-of-mouth is nice.  In the absence of paying customers, however, they are irrelevant.

MWM (assuming that's who THeM is) is, first and foremost, a business.  Building MMOs is expensive.  MWM may have the resources to build their superhero MMO.  MWM may have the resources to resurrect COH and operate it.  Considering that they only raised $678,000 with their KickStarter, I am skeptical that they can do both, and I don't think they should.

But that's just my opinion.

Poor example. LEGO's brand loyalty was most likely what kept it just above water long enough to get turned around. In fact, it's been well-documented that the reasons LEGO was going under was because they tried too hard to make money. Instead of taking care of their CORE fanbase (i.e. loyal customers), they had started trying to become some kind of "lifestyle" brand with clothes, watches, videogames, etc. They were delving into business structures they didn't even understand. The reason they were turned around was because they put someone else in charge that "got" the taking care of your loyal customer philosophy.

If you have time, watch the documentary on it on Netflix.

Or, you could just read this article.

Either way, your LEGO example only supports what I already stated. A business wants brand recognition and a loyal customer base. Yes, in the end, that comes down to making money--but, as with LEGO, if you make it ALL about "making money" while ignoring your loyal customers, you lose your "regulars"....and consequently, lose money.

[Ironwolf]

I just want to say - I won't be mad at people for anything they say about me. I started this a long time ago. In fact right after the first try failed and they went after Google and Disney, I was seeking local buyers in Michigan. That is how I got to talk to Rae.

I kept going, kept trying different ideas and if that makes me to blame if this attempt falls through - I don't care. I will try again. I will keep trying until NCSoft says - enough we are not selling it. Even then, I will periodically send them a letter.

I have never sought the spotlight or the glory involved in getting the game back. I just want the damn thing back. I think if I had not picked it up someone would have - but it may have taken longer.

The team trying to buy it now needs your understanding and Patience. The point is after the Massively article - someone, somewhere was going to talk. I have been contacted by others seeking information since that time. It was going to happen. Now it can happen in a controlled way instead of plastered on a bunch of sites first.

Be kind to the new group - they love the game every bit as much as we do.

[Ironwolf]

I can think of lots of reasons why I would think it's unlikely to be MWM.  I mean, how would all the players who flocked to them as a way to stay clear of NCSoft feel about even an *attempt* to enter into business with them?  It seems like it would be even worse for MWM to try to make a deal with NC and fail.  About the only thing that makes me go, "Well, I guess it could be them" is the fact that with all this speculation, none of them have said, "It's not us."

You are missing everything that happened. The new folks aren't attempting to enter business with NCSoft - they may not have a choice to get the game. Ok, I will put it on you - NCSoft says you can't have the game if we can't have a profit share for 2 years. Then what?

[silvers1]

Whoever the buyers are, I really hope it isn't the same outfit running Neverwinter Online - or anyone else with that philosophy.

I'd hate to see CoH turned into another PAY2WIN game.

[Ankhammon]

If Missing Worlds Media turns out to be THeM, then I suspect that it's an agreement for the IP, rather than actually "turning the servers back on",  MWM has already invested time and money in their architecture, including a sweetheart deal for the Unreal Engine.  It would be short-sighted of MWM to throw all of that away to take over a game whose code and server architecture are unknown and undocumented.

*Let me preface this by stating I have absolutely no information regarding the situation or state of CoH beyond this forum.*

That's been something that has been bugging me through this whole thing. The concept that the server architecture is unknown and undocumented. I would think that this is not quite what we've been reading into it.

There are several ways officially to document the exactness of your code and architecture, both handled through a Configuration Manager (I was one for a few years). These have to be maintained simply if you want to have a failover capacity. This information is required for auditing and even for coordinating new projects and releases (issues to us).

Not only that, but in every IT development group I've ever been involved with there is at least one "true geek" on the team. The person who is so knowledgeable about the project and it's content that he can actually recite from finite detail to global architecture.

By the way, the easiest way to identify the "true geek" in your group is just look for the person with the highest IQ. He'll be off in a corner somewhere and usually quietly working. Make friends with this person. Make sure his management knows how valuable he is right where he's at. He can make sure you're behind never gets singed in the fire.