Author Topic: New efforts! -- metadiscussion  (Read 82845 times)

Harpospoke

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2014, 06:30:22 PM »

If Ironwolf had NOT spoken up at the start, there wouldn't have been another buy attempt in the first place.

+1

There is a timeline that seems to get lost in hindsight when talking about Ironwolf at times.    There was no reason to keep quiet at the beginning because there wasn't anything happening to keep quiet about.   The only way IW could have known to keep anything to himself would be to step into a time machine today and go back and tap himself on the shoulder.

Completely different situation than "The Robert".  (I'm not attacking Robert either...just pointing out it's two different things)

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2014, 06:48:35 PM »
Honestly, I feel like everyone who is NOT directly on the Hail Mary team - especially Robert, and unfortunately Ironwolf - should have kept their mouths completely shut. If they're not active members of the team, it is not their announcements to make.

I feel like Ironwolf was trying in good faith to let the community know what's up, but in the end all it did is divide and upset people when there's no whiff of a guarantee that any hype will pan out.

I feel like Robert was just trying to self-aggrandize and stir up admiration for work he has no hand in. He needs to sit down and zip it.

If Hail Mary DID ask folks to release this information in such a half-assed and uncontrolled manner, I've got very little faith in them running the game well, frankly.

This whole thing has been cruel and divisive, and should never have been brought up at all until the answer was yes.

Case and point.  Ironwolf is the REASON these talks are happening.  But god forbid everything doesn't go EXACTLY the way some people want and now its Ironwolf's fault.

Ironwolf isn't to blame because he gave us an inch and some of us decided to take a mile

Even Robert isn't a bad dude or anything like that, he is just one of the few that took the mile.

What did you do to help bring back the game Feycat?

Of course had Ironwolf kept this all to him self people would have just blamed him for keeping his mouth shut.  I hope you know at least some of us are grateful Ironwolf.

Sihada

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #122 on: August 31, 2014, 06:55:23 PM »
If Missing Worlds Media turns out to be THeM, then I suspect that it's an agreement for the IP, rather than actually "turning the servers back on",  MWM has already invested time and money in their architecture, including a sweetheart deal for the Unreal Engine.  It would be short-sighted of MWM to throw all of that away to take over a game whose code and server architecture are unknown and undocumented.

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #123 on: August 31, 2014, 07:02:56 PM »
If Missing Worlds Media turns out to be THeM, then I suspect that it's an agreement for the IP, rather than actually "turning the servers back on",  MWM has already invested time and money in their architecture, including a sweetheart deal for the Unreal Engine.  It would be short-sighted of MWM to throw all of that away to take over a game whose code and server architecture are unknown and undocumented.

I don't know the workings of Kickstarter that well.  But would they even be allowed to use the money from their Kickstarter for bidding on CoH?  (Not that any of us that donated would probably care that much, although I would like to CoT rise and be very successful)

Number9

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #124 on: August 31, 2014, 07:12:32 PM »
If Missing Worlds Media turns out to be THeM, then I suspect that it's an agreement for the IP, rather than actually "turning the servers back on",  MWM has already invested time and money in their architecture, including a sweetheart deal for the Unreal Engine.  It would be short-sighted of MWM to throw all of that away to take over a game whose code and server architecture are unknown and undocumented.

If it is MWM I think they will certainly be turning the CoH servers back on.  Why?  1.  It will build loyalty with the CoH player base.  2. It will show competence and build expertise in running a MMO. This will be vital for them to raise funds and investment for CoH2/CoT.
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Shifter

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #125 on: August 31, 2014, 07:28:59 PM »
I just want to reiterate this.  Although I can't point to a specific post right now, I know they're out there, in which MWM has confirmed that a potential CoH return would not alter their plans to proceed with development on City of Titans.

That kind of touches on one of my minor fears, that it could be just a "side project" to whatever group gets it. But hey, as long as my son and I can play we will be happy campers :)

I don't know the workings of Kickstarter that well.  But would they even be allowed to use the money from their Kickstarter for bidding on CoH?

I'm not familiar with it either, but buying the rights to use the original game's content in order to make a successor seems legit to me.
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AlienOne

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #126 on: August 31, 2014, 07:34:06 PM »
I REALLY feel for the people working on the deal right now....

It's gotta be a tough situation to be in to not only be working your butt off to get the game for a community this passionate about it, but also try and contain your excitement and want to announce any breakthroughs you've had/will have.

I'm not sure if I could do it. If it were me though (and I assure you it's not, before some other confounded rumor starts), I would most likely not say a single word about it until the ink from NCSoft's pen had dried on a contract (in triplicate), sent to my lawyers, verified, and one copy put in a bank vault underground guarded by Doomsday.

Don't get me wrong... I would WANT to announce everything about it to everyone (so I understand their position), but considering just how rabid this fanbase is about anything related to this beloved game, I'd hate to risk announcing something and then have to make another announcement about the deal falling through. I'm sure I'd have people trying to hunt me down or something. Heck, I made a simple comparison statement in the other thread, and had like 4 people jump on me (and one person threaten my life)... I would hate to think what they'd be like if the announcement was "sorry, we couldn't do it."

To the "Hail Mary" team working on the deal.... I (and many others here) truly appreciate what you're doing to try and get our game back for us... But, don't let us know what's going on--if doing that would be to the detriment of the deal.

As Ironwolf put it a while back, getting the game is the top priority.

Everything else (including announcement tidbits) isn't necessary. I'm sure we'll all be just happy to have the game available to us if it happens.

Thanks for your post, TonyV.
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Shifter

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #127 on: August 31, 2014, 07:41:35 PM »
TonyV, Ironwolf, and everyone else involved in the effort: Regardless of how the announcement goes tomorrow, thank you all for your time and effort here.
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Sihada

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #128 on: August 31, 2014, 07:51:09 PM »
If it is MWM I think they will certainly be turning the CoH servers back on.  Why?  1.  It will build loyalty with the CoH player base.  2. It will show competence and build expertise in running a MMO. This will be vital for them to raise funds and investment for CoH2/CoT.

That would be counterproductive.  They would be spending a lot of money to get COH.  Then get COH back and operational.  And then keep it online and maintain it all while building another MMO that would directly compete with COH?

That's not a great approach.

Power Gamer

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #129 on: August 31, 2014, 08:00:45 PM »
That would be counterproductive.  They would be spending a lot of money to get COH.  Then get COH back and operational.  And then keep it online and maintain it all while building another MMO that would directly compete with COH?

That's not a great approach.

Actually, I have first hand experience doing just that very thing.

And it works extraordinarily well, the money fell out of the sky on both businesses. Also we demolished our competition. Both business thrive to this day.
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AlienOne

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #130 on: August 31, 2014, 08:01:01 PM »
That would be counterproductive.  They would be spending a lot of money to get COH.  Then get COH back and operational.  And then keep it online and maintain it all while building another MMO that would directly compete with COH?

That's not a great approach.

Do you realize how much money companies pay to get and keep loyal customers? Let's take the Super Bowl for example... Why would a company spend millions and millions of dollars just so you remember their brand name?

If you have any training in marketing at all, you'd realize that the simple act of acquiring CoH and getting it operational would acquire legions of loyal fans willing to do anything to support said company--and that's all any company ever really wants....a loyal customer base that is willing to recommend them to all their friends.

That is what they call an "intangible." You might be able to quantify the worth of a customer base in number projections, but you can't quantify loyalty and brand recognition. Any marketing person will tell you that a loyal customer is worth FAR more than a one-time buyer who may or may not come back.
"What COH did was to show [developers of other] MMOs what they could be like if they gave up on controlling everything in the game, and just made it something great to play."  - Johnny Joy Bringer

Lasombra

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #131 on: August 31, 2014, 08:02:54 PM »
Thank you Tony V for the update.  I have not been as anxious as some because I know how much hard work goes into this kind of negotiations.  I hope they take their time, get what they need, and we COHers will be happy if it works out and we get to play again.  Sorry you have to deal with the asshats of facebook who insist that they know all and want to report all whether it is true or not.  I would love to play COX again, and if that is to be, great.  If not, no one can say a "best shot" wasn't taken.

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #132 on: August 31, 2014, 08:03:04 PM »
Do you realize how much money companies pay to get and keep loyal customers? Let's take the Super Bowl for example... Why would a company spend millions and millions of dollars just so you remember their brand name?

If you have any training in marketing at all, you'd realize that the simple act of acquiring CoH and getting it operational would acquire legions of loyal fans willing to do anything to support said company--and that's all any company ever really wants....a loyal customer base that is willing to recommend them to all their friends.

That is what they call an "intangible." You might be able to quantify the worth of a customer base in number projections, but you can't quantify loyalty and brand recognition. Any marketing person will tell you that a loyal customer is worth FAR more than a one-time buyer who may or may not come back.

Great points, AlienOne.
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Kistulot

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #133 on: August 31, 2014, 08:12:40 PM »
Sometimes I think that it would help everyone here if we all pretended that we were on a big TF/SF with everyone involved, and any posts we didnt 100% agree with was someone suggesting a very very bad build or some suicidal action, like, say, a solo hamidon raid on their kheld because if you can solo ITF you can solo hami.

We're all good people - even if we played bad people - and we all just want our game back. Let's give everyone else a little slack, relax, and remember we're all here for the same reasons.

Maybe the whys of the game back are different - RP, certain ATs, certain content, etc, but we're all only here, Robert included over on facebook, Tony keeping the Network alive, Ironwolf starting this effort and keeping us appraised, etc, because we want our game back. We're allies. Friends.

It makes me sad when we don't treat eachother like we would have in game. We're the CoH community. Let's be heroes to eachother, we can always do alignment mishes to change that later :3
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Surelle

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #134 on: August 31, 2014, 08:53:00 PM »
That would be counterproductive.  They would be spending a lot of money to get COH.  Then get COH back and operational.  And then keep it online and maintain it all while building another MMO that would directly compete with COH?

That's not a great approach.

Okay, I haven't even read the rest of this page but I feel instantly compelled to point out to you that SOE (Sony Entertainment Online) does this very thing and it is the cornerstone of their MMO business:  It's the Everquest Franchise, with every one still running strong.  EQ1 turned 15 this spring, EQ2 will be 10 this November, and not only is EQ3 (Everquest Next) in the works but also Everquest Landmark, which is in closed beta!   ;D   1 & 2 have an insane amount of expansions for each one of them, too; no maintenance mode there!  Oh, and did I mention Planetside and Planetside 2, their FPSs? 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 08:58:30 PM by Surelle »

Superratz

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #135 on: August 31, 2014, 08:55:42 PM »
Oh Good, Because I had a hard time trusting Iron Wolf, Since I didn't really know him too well. I am Sorry Iron Wolf I was Wrong about you. It hard to imagine a Game making a Come back, Since So many failed to do so.

Surelle

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #136 on: August 31, 2014, 09:01:04 PM »
Sometimes I think that it would help everyone here if we all pretended that we were on a big TF/SF with everyone involved, and any posts we didnt 100% agree with was someone suggesting a very very bad build or some suicidal action, like, say, a solo hamidon raid on their kheld because if you can solo ITF you can solo hami.

We're all good people - even if we played bad people - and we all just want our game back. Let's give everyone else a little slack, relax, and remember we're all here for the same reasons.

Maybe the whys of the game back are different - RP, certain ATs, certain content, etc, but we're all only here, Robert included over on facebook, Tony keeping the Network alive, Ironwolf starting this effort and keeping us appraised, etc, because we want our game back. We're allies. Friends.

It makes me sad when we don't treat eachother like we would have in game. We're the CoH community. Let's be heroes to eachother, we can always do alignment mishes to change that later :3

+1 I love this post!

Taceus Jiwede

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #137 on: August 31, 2014, 09:38:03 PM »
Okay, I haven't even read the rest of this page but I feel instantly compelled to point out to you that SOE (Sony Entertainment Online) does this very thing and it is the cornerstone of their MMO business:  It's the Everquest Franchise, with every one still running strong.  EQ1 turned 15 this spring, EQ2 will be 10 this November, and not only is EQ3 (Everquest Next) in the works but also Everquest Landmark, which is in closed beta!   ;D   1 & 2 have an insane amount of expansions for each one of them, too; no maintenance mode there!  Oh, and did I mention Planetside and Planetside 2, their FPSs?

Not to mention EQ Next sounds freaking amazing.  If they can pull off everything they are going for it will be raising the bars for MMO's.  But they also have some VERY ambitious goals that I have seen other MMO's attempt and fail (Horizons for example)

Quote
Sometimes I think that it would help everyone here if we all pretended that we were on a big TF/SF with everyone involved, and any posts we didnt 100% agree with was someone suggesting a very very bad build or some suicidal action, like, say, a solo hamidon raid on their kheld because if you can solo ITF you can solo hami.

We're all good people - even if we played bad people - and we all just want our game back. Let's give everyone else a little slack, relax, and remember we're all here for the same reasons.

Maybe the whys of the game back are different - RP, certain ATs, certain content, etc, but we're all only here, Robert included over on facebook, Tony keeping the Network alive, Ironwolf starting this effort and keeping us appraised, etc, because we want our game back. We're allies. Friends.

It makes me sad when we don't treat eachother like we would have in game. We're the CoH community. Let's be heroes to eachother, we can always do alignment mishes to change that later :3

Said very well.  I may not always be the most level headed person but seeing posts like this makes me take a step back.  Thanks Kistulot :)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 10:08:29 PM by Taceus Jiwede »

Sihada

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #138 on: August 31, 2014, 10:31:31 PM »
Okay, I haven't even read the rest of this page but I feel instantly compelled to point out to you that SOE (Sony Entertainment Online) does this very thing

This is not really comparable for several reasons.

1. Sony's MMOs are bundled into the "Station Pass" package, and therefore do not compete with one another for subscribers and revenue. 
2. MWM would be simultaneously maintaining a game that people love while trying to build a game to replace it.  MWM's resources are not comparable to Sony's.

Quote
If you have any training in marketing at all, you'd realize that the simple act of acquiring CoH and getting it operational would acquire legions of loyal fans willing to do anything to support said company--and that's all any company ever really wants

What companies want are customers who pay for their products and services.  Period.   LEGO Universe had massive customer loyalty, and it failed because it didn't make money.  Loyalty is nice.  Good word-of-mouth is nice.  In the absence of paying customers, however, they are irrelevant.

MWM (assuming that's who THeM is) is, first and foremost, a business.  Building MMOs is expensive.  MWM may have the resources to build their superhero MMO.  MWM may have the resources to resurrect COH and operate it.  Considering that they only raised $678,000 with their KickStarter, I am skeptical that they can do both, and I don't think they should.

But that's just my opinion.

Eoraptor

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Re: New efforts! -- metadiscussion
« Reply #139 on: August 31, 2014, 10:38:18 PM »
I have long thought that FB literally makes people crazy. I really think it does.

People cant wait literally one more day...????
Ironically I just had this discussion over on a fanfiction board. Yes, Facebook really does make people insane, and that is by design. Long rant ahead

Spoiler for Hidden:
Remember, facebook is about one thing, making money for Zuckerberg and now the shareholders. AT ANY COST. Since Facebook is not a for-pay site like Match.com where you pay for basic functionality, nor an ecommerce site like amazon where it can take a cut of sales, it can only make money in one of two ways... displaying advertising to its userbase, or collecting information about its userbase to sell to advertisers.

It does both, of course. That, in and of itself, is not the problem; Google, Yahoo, Amazon, all also do the same thing. The problem is that they also have other revenue streams, Google has its search and ad businesses inhouse, Amazon has sales, and Yahoo has an almost insurmountable news delivery platform. Facebook has nothing but its social media content and a few patents. so it HAS to bang those two revenue sources as hard and often as it can.

Therefore it has to keep people on the site for as long as possible, and it has to keep them moving around the site and building up profile data as much as possible. How can it do this? particularly when it does not generate any content of its own like yahoo, nor sell things like amazon, nor provide info on the outside world like google? It does so by using Skinner Box techniques. The like button is a fast reward system pioneered in Skinner's research, purpose designed to encourage short, quippy, memetic, reshareable content, because a lot of likes is equivalent to social acceptance, and social acceptance is a reward in itself. Phrases like #yolo and icebucket challenge and nipslip were all but unheard ten years ago. In that time, long form communications still ruled. Chat rooms and message boards reigned supreme.

Then Zuckerberg came along. overnight Facebook and small-factor clones like tumblr and reditt began to put a premium on skinner-box techniques. Why? Why encourage this meme-heavy behavior? It's highly profitable... you move people around your service quickly searching for more likes to see and more things to get liked by others, and with each click on your site, or on another site tied into your system (facebook sign-in, likes on third party sites, digs, redits, upvotes, etc) you gain more saleable information about people doing the clicking. You also show them a barrage of advertising, particularly in highly trafficked areas, and each click of those ads, or even each non-click view, generates ad revenue. All of this is done without you generating one whit of actual content beyond the platform itself.

In this carefully structured environment, certain types of users, archetypes, are key. You must have content generators... CNN, National Geographic, Microsoft, etc... companies who are willing to post their material to Facebook, also for free. You must also have engagers; people who say to the rest of the world "come and look at this thing I have found and liked." And you must also have conversation drivers who will keep people coming back to the discussion and thus keep down the need for the first two types of people who are more difficult to procure and retain to the site. Unfortunately for us normal, level-headed types, the most effective conversation drivers are trolls like Randal, or SlickNickShady, or dozens of others. They have sociopathic personalities that generate joy from the suffering and discomfort of others, and psychological tools that make them very accomplished at eliciting those responses. A troll can whip up, in just two or three posts, an internet argument (just like this one here) which will roll on for days without any further input, a roiling conversation with little actual merit or point, because a calm and reasoned discussion usually ends within a few posts as people go "yeah, guess you were right."

So... if a conversation driver is key to maintaining site activity (is profitable), and a troll is a conversation driver.... then a troll, ipso facto, is profitable to facebook and other companies of its ilk. And then encouraging them and their behaviors is also profitable. So it is quite literally in Facebook's best interest to encourage behavior You and I see as insane (clinical sociopathy exercised by internet trolls) in order to turn a profit. Because insanity drives traffic, and traffic drives profits, and encouraging more people to fall into the insane skinner box trap is encouraging more profit.
So yeah, sadly this has literally been done to us in the ten years since our beloved city was launched. While we still had it, we were largely a unified community able to hold ourselves immune from the skinner box and its controls (though MMO's are, themselves, also such boxes with their own reward schemas). but now that we've been two years without that stronghold of polite rational thought, the insidious clutches of facebook are digging in to our brains and turning us into *gasp* normal internet  users.

Then again, perhaps that's why we all love COH. On some levels it was not a very good skinner box; and we, also on some level, recognize that freedom from the box and crave it.
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