Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7303072 times)

Teikiatsu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11720 on: September 18, 2014, 04:40:06 AM »
Our next forum game! Name the new servers!

New Freedom!

Phoenix!

Titan!

FREEEM!

EDIT: I really, really hate that I know about the negotiations. I should be playing other games instead of waiting for stuff that may not be and I just barely got over existing.

Those are awesome, but I'll toss out Initiative and Integrity
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Zombie Hustler

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11721 on: September 18, 2014, 04:42:51 AM »
The One Rule: Bring along a toon. (Sub-rule: Who can join whatever we're doing.)

That's it. She would take anyone, of any archetype, for any content, ability mix be damned. We even had a tank show up for a lot of our 'Fender Frenzy nights when we were all meant to be playing defenders. Didn't matter. Failure didn't matter, either.

This is what I loved about Rikti Mothership Raids. Just sign up, come one, come all. Fun times to be had for everyone, plenty of rewards (especially once incarnate drops came around).

Mothership Raids were one of the few times I ever actually ended up forming teams and leading myself. Those were fun and didn't leave you with people whining and complaining about other people's builds or anything (not to suggest that always happened; I think the community got a lot better about pickup teaming as the game progressed than from when I first started playing around i6 or 7, but I did have enough of those elitist experiences in those early days that turned me off of teaming much of the time.)

Remaugen

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11722 on: September 18, 2014, 04:46:51 AM »
Paragon and Titan if there are only two servers.
Atlas if we get a third and Rogue for the forth and Praetoria for the fifth.
We're almost there!  ;D

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Zombie Hustler

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11723 on: September 18, 2014, 04:54:19 AM »
All that I know of I24 comes from reading ParagonWiki.

I hope you get to experience it live some day. I think the wiki is great in being able to preserve it for everyone who didn't get to run it, but it was so much fun to actually do. There was some great new content in i24 that I think people would really have enjoyed. I recall some kvetching over some "retcons" in one storyline in particular (the Skulls one), but honestly- retcon or not- it fleshed out that organization for the first time, with a really fun storyline that involved some different types of storytelling and some cool instances of LUA scripting.

And that was just one of the cool new bits in there. In addition to the QoL changes implemented, they just had a lot of fun, new, and varied story arcs in i24 that I think would have given everyone a little something to enjoy.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11724 on: September 18, 2014, 05:02:11 AM »

Moonlighter

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11725 on: September 18, 2014, 05:43:39 AM »
If you're going to accept the wikipedia article as the official definition, I can always edit it.  When you find an actual official definition for the term I'll accept that; in the meantime I'll use the term as its been generally used in the gaming community, which is the definition I alluded to.

Whatever the former definition of "grind" was, what it essentially amounts to in modern parlance is "the activity I don't want to do that's in the way of the reward I want."

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11726 on: September 18, 2014, 06:11:04 AM »
Please feel free to google "video game grinding definition" you'll notice at the top in big bold letters it will say "Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games."

Indeed it does.  Notice how that exactly matches the definition I gave, and specifically omits the thing I pointed out yours contains which most people would not agree with:

The fact of the matter is you had to repeat the -exact- same mission over and over again just gain a reward. That by definition is a grind. If you had to run random missions/tasks that may be similar but are indeed different, then that is no longer considered a grind.

By who?  The question of whether something is a grind or not doesn't have an explicit definitive definition, wikipedia notwithstanding.  The general concept is that grinding is when a player deliberately does the same basic activity repeatedly when the overwhelming reason is to earn rewards from that activity.  I think most players would agree running PvP missions over and over again to level as fast as possible is grinding, even if the content is not the exact same mission over and over (I did that when CoV first launched to try to be among the first to ding 40 - I was somewhere around 8th overall on Triumph with a stalker of all things - and I did it specifically to see if I could and for no other reason, but I still think it was grinding).

The critical subjective issues are what the motivation of the player is, and to what degree they believe they are running completely repetitive content.

On top of implying that wikipedia is an authoritative reference, your definition doesn't even match its definition.  On the other hand, look whose definition is consistent with it:

Wikipedia:
Quote
The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage [3] in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

Me:
Quote
I think most players would agree running PvP missions over and over again to level as fast as possible is grinding, even if the content is not the exact same mission over and over

You:
Quote
If you had to run random missions/tasks that may be similar but are indeed different, then that is no longer considered a grind

Note I'm not offering the wikipedia article up as an absolute authority of the definition of the term, only noting that you used it to support a definition it doesn't actually support.

Baja

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11727 on: September 18, 2014, 11:02:48 AM »
I'm confused, you use me saying doing different tasks/missions that are not the same is a grind. You're trying to argue because I said exact I'm assuming, and your basis is pvp missions. I'll be honest and totally forget what they even were as when I went to pvp zones it was usually to pvp, this is not a knock on you for doing them I'm just saying I lack the knowledge about them to argue. So I'll take paper/radios since you also tried saying they were grinding, although similar by true definition as offered by Wikipedia (which apparently offers no real information anymore) you are not repeating the same task over and over so technically no it is not grinding. If literally every single mission was kill bad guy x then yeah it's a grind. My whole arugement about this was Itrials are a grind, feel free to quote that.

Some other points.

- You said Wikipedia is wrong but now say it agrees with you, which would make you wrong by your own standards.

- If you read books that's the same "basic activity", if you read that -same- book over and over that becomes the same thing as grinding.

- Agree to disagree.

Power Gamer

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11728 on: September 18, 2014, 11:43:30 AM »
I thought that grinding was defined as having to do a certain mish or arc (for example) to get a reward that was only available in that mish, arc or so.
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Shadowe

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11729 on: September 18, 2014, 11:53:09 AM »
To me, grinding is consciously choosing to repeat the same content (within the limits of your control) to obtain a specific reward.

During the Christmas event, I would hit Steel Canyon, and cycle the same route around the zone to click presents. Over and over and over again. For hours. To get Candy Canes.

That's grinding.

People who farm the old Dreck mission over and over are grinding.

There are too many possible examples to give, really.

On the other hand, I would quite often hit a zone, grab a radio mission against certain enemy groups (Carnies and Council were my favourites), clear it, and then repeat, mixing up the groups and type of mission (escorts were usually fun, but so were defeat all, or defeat boss). For no reason other than that I liked completing missions. Inf was a bonus (if I wanted inf, I wouldn't run in perma-SG-mode). Not a grind.

To me, running five consecutive BAF trials for incarnate rewards would be grinding. Running all of the trials consecutively would not, even if done for the same reason.

It is the combination of same content (which in CoH means the same mission, most of the time), repetition, and for a singular purpose. When all three of those are in place, it's grinding.

But even running a TF three times in a row, one for speed, another to obtain Master of, and a third to completely clear, would not be a grind to me.

Just my 2 inf.
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Teikiatsu

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11730 on: September 18, 2014, 01:25:21 PM »
So was the difference between grinding and farming based on if you enjoyed the activity or not? 

In my mind that's what should matter.  Did you have fun?

For example, I enjoyed running Katie Hannon and Lady Grey ad nauseum for XP (and was really upset when LG stopped being a L35+ TF).  I did not enjoy Cimerora (can't even remember the proto-Statesman dude's name) and Sarah Moore.  I didn't like running the same Trial more than once (maybe twice) in a day but I would hop from instance to instance to run Hamidons.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 01:31:43 PM by Teikiatsu »
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Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11731 on: September 18, 2014, 01:26:06 PM »
As for new names, if there's only one shard, my vote is for "Paragon".

Assuming we have the opportunity for new server names, I like Resurgence, Resurrection, Forever, Eternity, Loyalty and Tenacity.  I think the server names should represent the second life of City and the extraordinary effort of those responsible.

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11732 on: September 18, 2014, 01:36:15 PM »
So was the difference between grinding and farming based on if you enjoyed the activity or not?

Not that I claim any particular expertise on the language here, but this is the language as I use and understand it: I would consider farming to be a particular kind of grinding.  (That is, "farming" is to "grinding" as "poodle" is to "dog.")  Farming is allowing a particular instance or game location to repopulate over and over again in order to use the same location to gain rewards.  It has the advantage of becoming extremely familiar, and of course will tend to be content that is particularly suitable to your character, to maximize reward rates.  But other kinds of repetitive activity could be grinding.  I knew someone that would always pick glowie hunts when doing paper mishes with a stalker.  He wouldn't kill (*cough* sorry "defeat" - how soon I forget) anything; he'd just stealth to the end and get the mish bonus.  Not farming, but I'd definitely consider it grinding.

okami

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11733 on: September 18, 2014, 01:40:28 PM »
Yeah, I was part of the group trying to document the component drop table for DA in beta. The version that was released was, to put it kindly, punitive, but the first iteration they put up was just laughable. I think we may have seen one Rare drop right before they revised it upward (out of hundreds of data points collected by dozens of players), but I don't recall for sure at this point. It really shows just how worried they were that the raids they'd spent all their time building were going to sit empty.

I gave DA a second shot when they redid them on live with the justification to myself that I was collecting data for CE's thread on it. That let me turn all the mental "Really?"s into useful data points. That then correlated into a statistical "Really?" but with one step removed from myself.

At 8 raids, we were down to maybe 4 or 5 that I saw advertised regularly on Infinity (assuming you count grinding the mobs at the start of Magisterium as "raiding"), some of them aimed at new Incarnates, others aimed at the more advanced group, but with an increasing split between the mature Incarnates and the fresh Alpha Slotted 50s. What was it going to be like when that number hit 15 raids? 25? Split into four different tiers? Sooner or later, the population is going to start spreading too thin to effectively use them all, especially on smaller servers. If the devs didn't have some sort of relief for this problem in mind, they were headed for trouble in very short order.

STO has that problem in spades with its ton of queues of which only about three actually get run. Locking materials behind the elite queues means there's a real incentive to skip the normal ones, even if you or your ship isn't actually ready for them.

ukaserex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11734 on: September 18, 2014, 01:46:42 PM »
This is what I loved about Rikti Mothership Raids. Just sign up, come one, come all. Fun times to be had for everyone, plenty of rewards (especially once incarnate drops came around).

Mothership Raids were one of the few times I ever actually ended up forming teams and leading myself. Those were fun and didn't leave you with people whining and complaining about other people's builds or anything (not to suggest that always happened; I think the community got a lot better about pickup teaming as the game progressed than from when I first started playing around i6 or 7, but I did have enough of those elitist experiences in those early days that turned me off of teaming much of the time.)

Hmmm...how to say this...ok.
I realize that for the most part, how another person builds and plays their character has little to do with my fun, my perspective during an event like an MSR. I think, in retrospect, I probably had some regret, maybe some jealousy. I almost always brought a level 50 to an MSR. Sometimes I led them, and certainly couldn't bring a lower level character for that.
I think it's fair to say that different ATs and powersets can bring something useful to the table. However, when I would see level 5's, sometimes, level 1's, level 10's..well, I have to say, it really bothered me. Probably more than it should have. I had low level characters that could have used some xp. In my head, though, it just seemed to me that it would be unfair. Why should I get this easy xp with a low level character when others are bringing their 50's?

To be truthful, usually, it wasn't an issue. I'd see a low level character and not want them on my team, because below level 20 they just didn't contribute that much. They didn't have that many attacks, that many buffs - they bring less to the table. I'm killing a swarm of Rikti within seconds, and they are getting clobbered every minute, needed a rez or a tp back to the ship. Since you had to be level 35 to even earn a Vanguard Merit, it seemed to me that was where the cutoff should be.

Sometimes, however, particularly after a new powerset went live, we'd have 25 to 30 characters under level 35 and maybe a dozen 50s. When a league can barely defeat the 12th pylon before the shield goes back up, well, that's an indication that something is amiss. It wasn't that much fun seeing half your league defeated in the middle of the bowl. I'm not saying this doesn't happen every now and then to an all level 50 team, but the difference in buffs and debuffs isn't negligible.

On Liberty, I would lead an MSR because @noyjitat would have things come up and not be able to. I was happy to do it, but seeing characters under level 35 always bugged me. I'd make notes as to what their global was, and see if the next week they brought something higher level. Invariably, some people were just really enjoying the new powersets and once they hit 50, they'd keep bringing that character until the next powerset came along. I was okay with that. Some would bring a level 1. One guy wanted to get all his levels from the MSR. He never even trained from the previous MSR. Now, I get that some folks had limited playtime. I understand that not everyone could "pl themselves" with a second account in AE in just a few gaming sessions. I understand that some don't like playing lowbies and really just liked the level 50 action, because, well, that's when you felt powerful. But really? You couldn't have at least trained?

Some folks on the server understood where I was coming from. Others, not so much. In retrospect, I think I wanted to bring the level 1! I didn't care much for the low level action and had much more enjoyment out of the incarnate trials. Aside from the Hollows, Striga and Croatoa, I didn't care much for the content. And really, Striga and Croatoa were awesome compared to the Hollows. But, Frostfire on a team of 8, or Atta - those were epic missions. Lots of xp in those, and I loved those story arc completion bonuses.

It's totally unreasonable for me to think that others should play the way I would. But, that didn't stop me from wishing they would bring a level 35 or higher character to an MSR.
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Shadowe

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11735 on: September 18, 2014, 02:08:29 PM »
So was the difference between grinding and farming based on if you enjoyed the activity or not?

Nope. I enjoyed grabbing Candy Canes in Steel Canyon. It was still grinding. Superspeed and Fly on my main, and it became something of a game I played against myself: could I ever loop my route before the presents spawned again? (Answer: no, unless there was someone else in the zone hitting them up at the same time.)

Quote
In my mind that's what should matter.  Did you have fun?

I don't consider boredom to be a factor. I am quite capable of grinding without being bored of it. In fact, given that if I ever did get bored, I'd go and do something else, for me boredom was frankly counterproductive to grinding.
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umber

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11736 on: September 18, 2014, 03:04:26 PM »
I did that when CoV first launched to try to be among the first to ding 40 - I was somewhere around 8th overall on Triumph with a stalker of all things

I always wondered how one determined such information.  Was it from insider information, pinging a dev who could datamine game logs, or was it just from Triumph Watch chat? 

The latter seems... imprecise.  What about the folks who didn't bother making the public announcement or who chimed in at some odd hour of the day going unnoticed by most?  I have some dim recollection of someone on TW stating they were the first X (first L50 SoA?) with my own thoughts of "I know of *at least* two SGers who accomplished that already". 

(Dunno if I would've posted an accomplishment victory-lap, never had the opportunity 'cause I leveled like a stoner on caltrops)

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11737 on: September 18, 2014, 03:14:14 PM »
I always wondered how one determined such information.  Was it from insider information, pinging a dev who could datamine game logs, or was it just from Triumph Watch chat? 

The latter seems... imprecise.  What about the folks who didn't bother making the public announcement or who chimed in at some odd hour of the day going unnoticed by most?  I have some dim recollection of someone on TW stating they were the first X (first L50 SoA?) with my own thoughts of "I know of *at least* two SGers who accomplished that already". 

(Dunno if I would've posted an accomplishment victory-lap, never had the opportunity 'cause I leveled like a stoner on caltrops)

I know in other MMOs (Rift comes to mind) they will send out global message not through chat, but on your screen when someone is a server 1st or a game 1st for a significant event. For CoX I remeber they had a "ladder" on the CoH Official Forum in Triumph for "List of LvL 50 Heroes" Of course anyone can put it they got a lvl 50 and it was based on the integrity of the individual, but that was an unofficial way to show who got lvl 40/50 in Triumph

Thunder Glove

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11738 on: September 18, 2014, 03:14:44 PM »
EDIT: I really, really hate that I know about the negotiations. I should be playing other games instead of waiting for stuff that may not be and I just barely got over existing.

I'm working through a backlog of 3DS and DS games (already played: Bravely Default, Fire Emblem Awakening, Legend of Zelda: Link Between Worlds.  Currently playing: Final Fantasy III.  Still in the queue: Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Tales of the Abyss, Paper Mario: Sticker Star, Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, Disgaia DS), so I'm keeping distracted until the game comes back.

I don't think I've ever had a backlog of games this large in my life.

tripthicket

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #11739 on: September 18, 2014, 03:55:15 PM »
If we're suggesting new server names just as a lark, then my vote is for "Fred."

Let's see who gets that one.  ;D