New efforts!

[princezilla]

Not specifically because we have the most up votes, but because we have a high number of up votes and comparatively few down votes.  I'm not surprised to see WoW have the most up votes but also a lot of down votes (which is why it is in second place).  Interestingly, only the top eight have more up votes than down votes**: City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, City of Villains, City of Heroes: Going Rogue, SWTOR, WoW: WofLK, WoW: The Burning Crusade, and Eve Online.


** Except for Elder Scrolls Online, because of some weird rerank stat.

We aren't trailing WoW by that much in upvotes, particularly when you look at all the expansions data. What this really shows is that the number of people who tried and liked a game vs those who tried and didn't like it so its more of a customer satisfaction rank and CoX is absolutely dominating in that regard with its approval percentages. It looks like the only entries on the list with a better then 75% rating. CoX games are rating from 79% (CoV) to just over 92% (GR) while WoW sits just under 70% and the rest of the list is 52% or below.

This shows that there is a hell of a lot of dissatisfaction in the MMO market considering WoW is the only active game on the list that more then half the people who played it liked.

[pinballdave]

Back when the game was running I leaked so much stuff without saying anything specific there were devs that regularly congratulated me for doing such a good job of telling everyone what was going on while saying almost nothing.  To this day it surprises me how few people caught on to paying particular attention when I was working extra hard to say as much nothing as possible, because I never said nothing without purpose.

I believe in and generally honor NDAs, but the one NDA term that's basically ridiculous in the sense that it is impossible to enforce is the term of keeping the very fact that a project has terminated a secret.  In the technology world, half the secrets involving project changes get indirectly leaked by Linkedin updates.

Did nobody read this?

Arcana says: (loosely paraphrased)

1. I leaked stuff by saying nothing
2. I never say nothing without purpose
3. I believe in NDAs
4. The "NDA  term that's basically ridiculous in the sense that it is impossible to enforce is the term of keeping the very fact that a project has terminated a secret."
5.  "In the technology world, half the secrets involving project changes get indirectly leaked by Linkedin updates"

So I believe that Arcanum has said something, and information is in LinkedIn. DISCUSS.

[simonthezealot]

for those that havnt seen it  or dont use facebook   go vote  we were in the 20's when the article posted yesterday now look

http://www.ranker.com/list/all-mmorpgs-list/reference

Actually kind of sad to see some of my other favorite MMOs, like SWG and AO, with such a huge proportion of downvotes.

[Biz]

Did nobody read this?

Arcana says: (loosely paraphrased)

1. I leaked stuff by saying nothing
2. I never say nothing without purpose
3. I believe in NDAs
4. The "NDA  term that's basically ridiculous in the sense that it is impossible to enforce is the term of keeping the very fact that a project has terminated a secret."
5.  "In the technology world, half the secrets involving project changes get indirectly leaked by Linkedin updates"

So I believe that Arcanum has said something, and information is in LinkedIn. DISCUSS.

Who is LinkedIn? Does he post updates here often?

[Vee]

Who is LinkedIn? Does he post updates here often?

His posts usually get mod deleted for reeking of desperation.

[saipaman]

Microsoft was desperate to marry him.

[Arcana]

This shows that there is a hell of a lot of dissatisfaction in the MMO market considering WoW is the only active game on the list that more then half the people who played it liked.

Expressing dissatisfaction with MMOs is the second most common activity in the MMO industry, just behind claiming to be able to design MMOs better than the professionals and just ahead of actually playing MMOs.

Just the other day someone posted on the Marvel Contest of Champions forums that they were quitting the game after spending $20k on it and, by inference, hundreds of hours a month, because they were dissatisfied with the game.  I'm not sure what's worse: lying about spending $20k of cash and hundreds of hours a month on an F2P mobile game you don't like playing, or telling the truth about spending $20k of cash and hundreds of hours a month on an F2P mobile game you don't like playing.

[princezilla]

Expressing dissatisfaction with MMOs is the second most common activity in the MMO industry, just behind claiming to be able to design MMOs better than the professionals and just ahead of actually playing MMOs.

Just the other day someone posted on the Marvel Contest of Champions forums that they were quitting the game after spending $20k on it and, by inference, hundreds of hours a month, because they were dissatisfied with the game.  I'm not sure what's worse: lying about spending $20k of cash and hundreds of hours a month on an F2P mobile game you don't like playing, or telling the truth about spending $20k of cash and hundreds of hours a month on an F2P mobile game you don't like playing.

Honestly the industry is kinda in the garbage right now, WoW is so massive that everyone tries to copy some particular part of it thinking it will be the key to instant success but shoot themselves in the foot by doing so because if people wanted to play a game like WoW then they would just play WoW. I remember when TOR was first released and there was so much hype behind it then we all actually played it and the actual gameplay system was a straight up copy paste from WoW's at the time the game was in development. Most games survive not by actually being high quality but by fulfilling niche that makes them a bit more appealing to a small group of people then all the alternatives. I mean you could just say 'then don't play MMOs' but for a lot of people anything is better then nothing so they pick the least disappointing option and vent their frustration by complaining.

[Arcana]

Honestly the industry is kinda in the garbage right now, WoW is so massive that everyone tries to copy some particular part of it thinking it will be the key to instant success but shoot themselves in the foot by doing so because if people wanted to play a game like WoW then they would just play WoW. I remember when TOR was first released and there was so much hype behind it then we all actually played it and the actual gameplay system was a straight up copy paste from WoW's at the time the game was in development. Most games survive not by actually being high quality but by fulfilling niche that makes them a bit more appealing to a small group of people then all the alternatives. I mean you could just say 'then don't play MMOs' but for a lot of people anything is better then nothing so they pick the least disappointing option and vent their frustration by complaining.

I have to disagree about SWTOR.  I know there were some people accusing SWTOR of ripping off WoW but people say that about every MMO released after WoW.  People even anachronistically leveled that charge against CoH.  If anything SWTOR's biggest issues at release were all related to the things they did differently than anyone else.  There were a lot of interesting-on-paper fusions between typical single player experiences and MMO gameplay but in practice a lot of them were incompatible with each other.  The content, for example, was scaled to be difficult to solo for the average MMO player.  But the game environment was designed around a lot of exploration.  Exploration is not something teams do well.  Travel was restricted, which added a lot of friction to teaming.  The power system was heavily tied to story-centric progression, but that meant your roleplay experience could have major consequences for your in-game capabilities.  That works a lot better in single player games than in a subscription MMO.  I mean, seriously, when you have to be the biggest Jedi-jerk in the cosmos on a regular basis to use the lucky gear drop you got last week, that flies in a single player game, not in MMOs.

There's only so many ways to put buttons on screen that make you use attacks, but that superficial similarity didn't seem to permeate into how combat actually worked in SWTOR vs WoW, at least WoW as it existed at the time of SWTOR's launch.  SWTOR was a lot less focused on buffs and gear and more focused on stance, position, and companion synergy.  WoW (in my own experience) fights were staged and then launched, while SWTOR was more you-go-here-I-go-there.

I actually appreciated that Bioware tried to do something different with SWTOR.  It was just that in the end SWTOR was too much of a Massively Single Player** game.


** Far as I know, I was the first person to stick that label on TOR, way back in beta.

[princezilla]

I have to disagree about SWTOR.  I know there were some people accusing SWTOR of ripping off WoW but people say that about every MMO released after WoW.  People even anachronistically leveled that charge against CoH.  If anything SWTOR's biggest issues at release were all related to the things they did differently than anyone else.  There were a lot of interesting-on-paper fusions between typical single player experiences and MMO gameplay but in practice a lot of them were incompatible with each other.  The content, for example, was scaled to be difficult to solo for the average MMO player.  But the game environment was designed around a lot of exploration.  Exploration is not something teams do well.  Travel was restricted, which added a lot of friction to teaming.  The power system was heavily tied to story-centric progression, but that meant your roleplay experience could have major consequences for your in-game capabilities.  That works a lot better in single player games than in a subscription MMO.  I mean, seriously, when you have to be the biggest Jedi-jerk in the cosmos on a regular basis to use the lucky gear drop you got last week, that flies in a single player game, not in MMOs.

There's only so many ways to put buttons on screen that make you use attacks, but that superficial similarity didn't seem to permeate into how combat actually worked in SWTOR vs WoW, at least WoW as it existed at the time of SWTOR's launch.  SWTOR was a lot less focused on buffs and gear and more focused on stance, position, and companion synergy.  WoW (in my own experience) fights were staged and then launched, while SWTOR was more you-go-here-I-go-there.

I actually appreciated that Bioware tried to do something different with SWTOR.  It was just that in the end SWTOR was too much of a Massively Single Player** game.


** Far as I know, I was the first person to stick that label on TOR, way back in beta.

I was mostly referring to the talent tree based spec system that both of them used at the time and the cookie cutter stats that didn't actually mean anything other then how big a boost it would give to the class that it was intended for. As someone who played both KotOR games I was really hoping for something that would put the RPG back in MMORPG, but it was nice to see those aspects of it that were different. The real failure of TOR was in the later attempts to add new end game content which were a series trainwrecks that got worse with each attempt.

[Tubbius]

Oooooo!  Two pages of stuff!  Am caught up now

[Paragon Avenger]

Following the New Efforts thread, one is never 'caught up'.

[Vee]

Following the New Efforts thread, one is never 'caught up'.

Cause you're behind at life?

[LateNights]

I was mostly referring to the talent tree based spec system that both of them used at the time and the cookie cutter stats that didn't actually mean anything other then how big a boost it would give to the class that it was intended for. As someone who played both KotOR games I was really hoping for something that would put the RPG back in MMORPG, but it was nice to see those aspects of it that were different. The real failure of TOR was in the later attempts to add new end game content which were a series trainwrecks that got worse with each attempt.

I agree that the talent trees did look remarkably similar to what WoW had at the time, but also with Arcana when she says they played very differently.

Actually SWTOR was similar to CoH in the sense that it was very easy to jump onto a team and run content - WoW for me was very daunting the first few times I tried it...

But wow (), did SWTOR cost me - I bought so many of those damn packs it wasn't funny - and now I'm not even playing, but my toons all looked a million bucks that's for sure!!

Anyone else play Transformers Universe?

Missing that at the moment too...

[Azrael]

WoW.  I'm playing that in 'free to play' mode right now.  I have to hand it to Blizzard.  They've played their 'hand' very well.  I can 'see' why it's popular.  Its 'good enough.'  Its music is excellent and the 'loot' system seems very well designed.  And the graphical engine.  They've done well with that.  (As a 'theme' and a game it's decent.  Not ultimately my kind of thing.  It's not CoH.  But what is?)  One thing that has caught my eye about WoW is that certain archetypes start off in very different settings with 'different' story lines.  ie.  Not Atlas or Galaxy all the time.  The Worgan setting and archetype being very well realised indeed.  This was something that I felt could have been done with the blaster, controller, scrapper types.  ie.  Give them their own story branch/setting/combat missions/arcs.  Therefore giving CoH more replay value.  There were a lot of 'empty' zones in CoH (compounded by creating CoV and Rogue thus 'more' empty zones...) rather than ramming the CoH zones they did have with far denser content ie.  Giving people a reason to 'start' there and 'go' there.

I did try Eve Online.  Obviously inspired by Elite.  It's just an MMO version of Elite.  But without the 1st person cockpit view of combat.  It had it's own ambient 'alone in space' vibe.  That's very different from WoW.

CoH was a pioneering, singular voice.  While I felt the IP was weak, the actual game was executed very well despite the development process shifting from deep casserole to shallow fried ala crispy.  I doubt I'll ever enjoy another game's combat or mobs as well or settings.  It was a MMO that I could solo.  (A superior but simple interface only later fumbled into the arcane(!) and confusingly difficult to understand design fracture cul-de-ac incarnate nerdy-noodling interface nonsense.)  But I did enjoy duo-ing the most. 

There's pressure to copy the market leaders with all that success.  But that doesn't always work out.  Champions (in retrospect, seems very obvious having now played WoW...) seems more like a failed superhero version of WoW rather than a 'plastic' ghetto version of CoH.  (Which only served to highlight CoH's superior design, whether by accident or judgement or, it seems, a bit of both.)

I wonder if NC Soft had advertised CoH with Mr. T as a Tanker...

Azrael.

[Nightmarer]

I think SWTOR missed a great opportunity to do things differently, specially if based on story as it was announced. As an example, being a sergeant trooper and disobeying an explicit order from a general got you exactly same place than obeying same order to the letter or reaching Light Mastery / Dark Mastery got you nowhere except giving you access to cosmetic items in fleet.
With all the hype, I would have expected that obeying a general's order would get you, I don't know, let's say a couple days off and then while on holiday someone attempted to murder you getting you on track to the next planet while disobeying a General would get you to let's say a week culling the rat population in Tatooine then finding a clue that would take you to next planet.

Also, the possibility of switching sides would have been welcome, when reaching light/dark mastery a new contact is available and gets you to an arc allowing to switch sides since, as an example, it is stupid to characterize every single bounty hunter in the galaxy to be Empire Side while every single smuggler in the galaxy is Republic Side.

It also annoys me the huge amount of QoL features they missed, cross-side custom chat channels, sharing missions, global chat handles...

I do not think SWTOR was a WoW ripoff, basically I think they wanted to take WoW's place by launching a half finished product trusting that the branding Star Wars +  Bioware in the box would do the trick.

It could really have been a WoW killer, like many others, they just were to cheap to do things properly. What really puzzles me is the amount of games aimed to the fabled "casual player" that blatantly disregards the CoH model which so far is the only game I have played that was an actual paradise for casual players.

[Azrael]

What really puzzles me is the amount of games aimed to the fabled "casual player" that blatantly disregards the CoH model which so far is the only game I have played that was an actual paradise for casual players.

*nods.  A lot of clever and talented people can't see that though.  If we examine the corpse strewn battle ground of MMOs... 

CoH was a pioneering spirit.

The 'lightning in a bottle' CoH 'model.' 

The seminal CoH. 

'Paradise for casual players.'

Azrael.

[adarict]

I was just wondering something.  Back in the old days when WoW was becoming the juggernaut, every game that came afterwards pretty much, got accused of trying to be a WoW clone.  In many cases, there was pretty strong evidence to give that idea some credence.  I see the same accusation leveled against many newer games.  What I wonder is, could that even be true anymore? 

Let me explain.  To me, regardless of the number of subscribers/active players that WoW has, the game itself is more of an institution anymore.  It just IS.  It has been on top of the heap for so long, there really isn't any hope of dethroning it anytime soon.  I would think that a good number of other MMO developers out there are aware of that, and may have the same kind of feelings.  Could it be that what people are ascribing to wanting to be a WoW clone, is actually just laziness?  Not that they are trying to make a WoW clone, but that the WoW system is so entrenched, that a lot of these developers just assume that is the way it should be done.  It goes back to a version of an old cliche, "never ascribe to malice, that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Maybe it is just because after CoH, I pretty much stopped playing MMOs.  Nothing out there entertained me as an MMO nearly as much as CoH.  Maybe a lot of newer games really ARE trying to be a WoW clone, hoping to steal enough players to make themselves some money.  I just wonder if that is really the case anymore.  Of course, I never understood wanting to be a WoW clone, mostly because I disliked Wow intensely on the two trial accounts I tried.  I just never could see how a game like WoW became so huge.  My tastes are obviously not the same as the majority of gamers that play WoW. 

[LateNights]

For everything I hate about WoW, there's also those moments that are brilliant...

Nearly coming to tears standing at the top of my garrison steps, after taking a moment to soak it all up and just listen to the music from the "juke box" I'd stumbled across accidentally while powering through the content so I could see what the big deal was - that was cool.

Wanting to throttle whoever writes their corny jokes that happen way to often when talking to quest npc's was not...

So there is something to be said for trying to capture what WoW does well, but I just don't think what WoW does well is very much gameplay related to be honest.

[ivanhedgehog]

I think SWTOR missed a great opportunity to do things differently, specially if based on story as it was announced. As an example, being a sergeant trooper and disobeying an explicit order from a general got you exactly same place than obeying same order to the letter or reaching Light Mastery / Dark Mastery got you nowhere except giving you access to cosmetic items in fleet.
With all the hype, I would have expected that obeying a general's order would get you, I don't know, let's say a couple days off and then while on holiday someone attempted to murder you getting you on track to the next planet while disobeying a General would get you to let's say a week culling the rat population in Tatooine then finding a clue that would take you to next planet.

Also, the possibility of switching sides would have been welcome, when reaching light/dark mastery a new contact is available and gets you to an arc allowing to switch sides since, as an example, it is stupid to characterize every single bounty hunter in the galaxy to be Empire Side while every single smuggler in the galaxy is Republic Side.

It also annoys me the huge amount of QoL features they missed, cross-side custom chat channels, sharing missions, global chat handles...

I do not think SWTOR was a WoW ripoff, basically I think they wanted to take WoW's place by launching a half finished product trusting that the branding Star Wars +  Bioware in the box would do the trick.

It could really have been a WoW killer, like many others, they just were to cheap to do things properly. What really puzzles me is the amount of games aimed to the fabled "casual player" that blatantly disregards the CoH model which so far is the only game I have played that was an actual paradise for casual players.

swotor keeps making new parts of the game and then ignoring them or nerfing them into the ground(GSF, seekerdroid etc).their last new ops were 2 years ago, they released them way overtuned and buggy because their only playtesters were nightmare raiders. they balance around pvp complaints and have absolutely no conversation with their playerbase. I remember just how good COH devs were in communications compared to bioware.