Author Topic: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS  (Read 35188 times)

JaguarX

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2013, 01:33:07 AM »
Uh... enhancements certainly, very definitely did. I figure even my cheap Frankenslotted builds doubled character effectiveness relative to SOs, and the top-tier builds were enormously more effective; whatever you did with SOs, blasters were squishies, but IOs could turn them into tank-mages - you'll find people on these very forums talking about how they'd survive teamwipes on 8-hero teams, and advocating strongly that being able to grind out that sort of munchkin build is a good thing.

I think it's a fundamental question for any of the successor projects; will that be possible, or will you get some sort of diminishing-returns effect where the game will always be challenging? Sadly, I suspect the market favours the former.

Indeed.

HEATSTROKE

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2013, 06:00:37 AM »
 IO's had the rule of five.. you couldn't get more than five of the same type of buff across enhancements..

 I think people forget what this game was like BEFORE ED... I was here.. Tanks herding an entire map and never coming to within an inch of dying.. Blasters wiping out entire mobs because they were five slotted for damage in every attack.. Build up and Aim... my Snipe could kill a boss in ONE shot..

 ED changed that.. and they changed it because they knew IOs were coming down the line.. and that would have totally completely broken the game..

 Personally I have no issue whatsoever if someone wants to make their toon an uber tank mage..

 Is surviving an 8 man team wipe a function of an uber IO tank mage build.. or is it a function of being smart...  Its a SUPER Hero game.. There should be a point where I feel SUPER..

 If you want the game to be challenging then crank it up to a difficulty level that suits you.. fight +7 foes if you want. Not everyone wants or enjoys that..

 Personally speaking for myself I built lots of IO'd out toons.. I made some pretty incredible builds IMO.. as good as others.. no.. but fun for me.. I liked being able to Permadom my Dominators.. or Build a Tank with Perma Dull Pain.. for me that was as much fun as playing the game itself.. I loved tinkering with builds and trying to find ways to make something a little better.. if a game doesnt allow me to do that.. then I simply wont be interested in the long run..

 And yes.. I used the  market.. i didnt PLAY the market as some said.. I sold what I didnt need.. bought what I wanted.. sometimes I used Merits.. sometimes I used Paragon Points.. sometimes I used real world money to buy the enhancement I wanted..

 My point I guess is this.. why does someone else care how someone gets their enhancements or builds their toon. Why is there this thing always in games where there seems to be a faction that wants to make you EARN the right to have what you have? 

 I played CoH since two months after launch.. I paid my subscription every month for over 8 years and I never gave a crap if some guy who didnt play as long as I did had some uber tank mage build..

 That just has always struck me as odd..

 

Felderburg

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2013, 06:36:00 AM »
But there is a sense that the pay2win method is "cheating" which quickly and easily leads those who feel accomplishment from play2winning to perceive the pay2win method as diminishing their ability to enjoy the game.

This may not be relevant to where the thread is now, but I have to share about pay2win. For me personally, it's not a big deal in PvE. It becomes a big deal in PvP. In Star Trek Online, they foolishly did not separate PvP and PvE powers (for the most part - there was one before I stopped playing that did different damage to players than NPCs). This isn't a huge issue, but it became one when the store opened up.

The PvE players bought things that made them really good in PvE, which isn't an issue - but when they were purchased by PvP players, they became the must have items. Against NPCs, who cares? But in PvP, which should theoretically be as even a playing field as possible where gear is concerned, you ended up with people who had money buying items that allowed them to dominate. So the resentment against pay2win is very real in that context.

Additionally, the fact  that some items were so overpowered / broken in PvP (because they created an uneven playing field) led to them getting "nerfed". So then the PvE players got the impression that the PvPers were causing nerfs to their fun NPC-killing toys, and it created an artificial divide and dislike between the two groups of players.
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JaguarX

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2013, 08:45:38 AM »
This may not be relevant to where the thread is now, but I have to share about pay2win. For me personally, it's not a big deal in PvE. It becomes a big deal in PvP. In Star Trek Online, they foolishly did not separate PvP and PvE powers (for the most part - there was one before I stopped playing that did different damage to players than NPCs). This isn't a huge issue, but it became one when the store opened up.

The PvE players bought things that made them really good in PvE, which isn't an issue - but when they were purchased by PvP players, they became the must have items. Against NPCs, who cares? But in PvP, which should theoretically be as even a playing field as possible where gear is concerned, you ended up with people who had money buying items that allowed them to dominate. So the resentment against pay2win is very real in that context.

Additionally, the fact  that some items were so overpowered / broken in PvP (because they created an uneven playing field) led to them getting "nerfed". So then the PvE players got the impression that the PvPers were causing nerfs to their fun NPC-killing toys, and it created an artificial divide and dislike between the two groups of players.

yup. unfortunately so for pvp. So then IOs ended up as being viewed as needed to compete in pvp. yeah yeah, a person can beat up a dude that is armed with a machine gun with homing bullets with a sppon, but equal skill, it's undeniable that IOs had upper hand. And to get those IOs one either had to have billions of influence, get lucky or farm a lot even if one used merits and alignment token. Only a certain amount of alignment tokens could be used a day and thus it could take 4-5 days min to get one decent item and longer for better ones compared to market, get one purple and make billions in a day. Or simply buy from gold seller, and say it was hard work and smart market playing so no one gets suspicious of how one went from a few million to 25 billion each toon across 5 servers within 1 day. Either way, given that one either had to use real cash or lot of in game currency, it is still was pay2win in a way or else take the long road or win lottery. The only difference is one is using the success or luck of in game currency or the success or real world currency. If one is allowed the other should be allowed. As they both equally create elitism and a chasm between the has and has nots.

Of course in game currency people say "Play the market and make some money. Then they can buy the items they want guess what, the same can be said with real life currency. "Play the real market and make some money. Then they can buy the items they want."

 Neither way is not better than the other it's still pay2win and haves vs have nots. Just different currency. And well the real world in most economies have way better inflation control. 

It seems mostly a case of I have no real money but plenty of in game currency so real money purchase shouldn't be used scenario. AKA, they simply want to keep the advantage and down the other way when in reality they are no better nor worse than any other form of pay2win method and have created the same effect that they claim pay2win creates.

thunderforce

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2013, 01:18:07 PM »
I think people forget what this game was like BEFORE ED...

I started playing shortly after EU release, so no, I haven't. For all the howls of protest, I thought ED and the accompanying nerfs to defences were generally a good thing, and that the balance of the game was best between ED and IOs.

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Is surviving an 8 man team wipe a function of an uber IO tank mage build.. or is it a function of being smart...

Well, it depends. If I had the sense to break for the stairs when it dropped in the pot, maybe the latter. If my blaster is just left standing there when the tanker has dropped, it's just grind.

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Its a SUPER Hero game.. There should be a point where I feel SUPER..

I never bought this argument for rampant munchkinism. Comics heroes, no matter how super they are, face opponents that challenge them.

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If you want the game to be challenging then crank it up to a difficulty level that suits you..

A marvellous idea for a game in which one never is in a team with other people, or trying to have a fair PVP match against them.

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I loved tinkering with builds and trying to find ways to make something a little better.. if a game doesnt allow me to do that.. then I simply wont be interested in the long run..

Then why did you play the game from before ED until the introduction of IOs?

Minotaur

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2013, 05:10:20 PM »
ED was necessary the way they implemented IOs, but I thought had they rigged the enhancement bonuses a little differently it could have been avoided. If you had to trade off set bonuses against the value of enhancement rather than the sets almost all providing more than the ED cap anyway, it could have been interesting without.

saipaman

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2013, 12:38:22 AM »
The only things I six slotted prior to ED were stamina and health.

After ED, had to slot lots more endurance reducers just to be able to play at a decent speed.

Segev

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2013, 04:08:25 PM »
The upside to having a finite pool of "awesome points" that is "spent" on slotting more "awesome" enhancement-equivalents is that we could avoid needing diminishing returns, because max-slotting the same thing will mean you have less "awesome points" to devote to other considerations.

The downside to this approach is that somebody absolutely could min/max to have all of the - say - increased damage he wanted, fully maxed out, on his one super-duper power. He would be as powerful as any pre-ED character on that one power. He might have crap enhancement-equivalents on everything else, but he'd have that one at potentially game-breaker levels. (The epitome of the glass cannon.)

There might be ways to work trade-offs into even this to make it less of a problem, but it's the first-order issue I can see potentially arising from this mechanic.

blacksly

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2013, 05:39:47 PM »
The upside to having a finite pool of "awesome points" that is "spent" on slotting more "awesome" enhancement-equivalents is that we could avoid needing diminishing returns, because max-slotting the same thing will mean you have less "awesome points" to devote to other considerations.

The downside to this approach is that somebody absolutely could min/max to have all of the - say - increased damage he wanted, fully maxed out, on his one super-duper power. He would be as powerful as any pre-ED character on that one power. He might have crap enhancement-equivalents on everything else, but he'd have that one at potentially game-breaker levels. (The epitome of the glass cannon.)

There might be ways to work trade-offs into even this to make it less of a problem, but it's the first-order issue I can see potentially arising from this mechanic.

You could just have a very simple mechanism where you have Awesome Points (based on level) and Awesome Load (based on how many rare IOs are slotted), and if your Load > Points, you just lower the effectiveness of the rare IOs (only) by a factor based on the ratio.

Simple example would be that at Level 50 you have 50 APs... a highly-stacked character with lots of Purples and rare IOs (say, a Posi Blast dual is 1/4 AP, but a Posi Blast proc is 3/4, a Purple dual is 1 but a Purple proc is 2) has a loadout with 80 total APs. Then, his rare IOs (the ones with a AP cost >0) have their effectiveness (enhancement level, chance to proc, etc) multiplied by 50/80.

You could insert a similar system where "subpar slots", like empty slots or slots with a level 15 standard IO when the character is level 40, get basic bonuses to all applicable enhancement options, with the bonuses getting larger as the character is more and more "in the red" with his slotting. That shouldn't affect any serious player, but it would give a reasonable boost to a character played by someone who doesn't know how to slot his powers, and noobies certainly could use the help.

Pinnacle Blue

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2013, 07:27:18 PM »
I think I should point out that purple sets were not the be-all, end-all of the game in all circumstances.  If you were trying to reach the defense softcap, you wanted to stay as far away from them as possible because none of them provided a global defense bonus.  In fact, some uncommon sets offered better +def bonuses than rare sets of the same kind/level range.

As we all know, there was never any problem with uncommon and rare recipes dropping.

My first character got to level 50 and T4'd all his incarnate powers save Hybrid-- and that was only because by the time Hybrid rolled around, he was no longer my main-- on plain vanilla IOs.  After I learned of the goodness that was the MFing Warshade, I made an effort to purple my Warshade out and succeeded. 

Not only wasn't it impossible, it didn't even take long.  I tended toward characters that could take down large numbers of minions with minimal risk.  With the Alpha Slot level shift, at level 50 that was painfully easy, as even-level mobs were now blue to you.

A character that excelled at single-target damage, however, wouldn't find that easy.  That's what alts are for.  Nobody said you had to play only one character.

We never really got a chance to see the long-term effects enhancement converters had on the market, especially with regard to purples, but if you were smart, you could buy the entire purple stun set-- Absolute Amazement-- extremely cheaply (relative to other purple prices, of course).  Then you could play converter roulette and pocket hefty profits on WW, which you would obviously leverage into buying the sets you actually wanted.  I was actually in the process of purpling out a few other characters this way before the shutdown announcement.

But even without converter roulette (which wasn't that costly a proposition given that a level 50 could get them from even level 1 mobs)?   Just about any uncommon or rare recipe you didn't need, you could sell to someone else via WW for more than a vendor would buy it.  Coupled with level 50 inf drops, staying inf poor and reaching the inf cap of 2 billion were of about equal difficulty.

So in my opinion a lot of the disdain for luck mechanics is only so much bizarre whining.  Luck only goes so far if you don't know what the hell you're doing in the first place.  A competent player who set goals for a character in CoX could reach them.  I wouldn't require much more than that (and worthwhile goals, of course) to enjoy a new game.

(That and flight.  Gotta be able to fly.)
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Manga

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2013, 08:42:47 PM »
Pinnacle Blue, I'm exactly the kind of incompetent player you would hate.  :)

But I didn't reply to single you out - you brought up a point that I feel is important, and I'd like to expand a bit.

When you create a game with a high degree of complication, that requires a lot of technical skill and research to succeed; or at the very least requires it to prevent being mocked and shunned by other players; people like me will hate playing it.

I don't really care if some players are better at it than I am.  What disturbs me is when those players start purposely restricting what I'm allowed to do because I didn't do something way back at level 5 that only those who read some obscure wiki page know to do, and therefore I don't deserve to play this game (that actually happened to me in SWTOR).

Creating a game that caters strongly to those types of players will eventually drive off all the casual players who don't need a 2nd full tine job.  Kind of like EVE Online did.

Pinnacle Blue

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #91 on: December 14, 2013, 09:02:55 PM »
Pinnacle Blue, I'm exactly the kind of incompetent player you would hate.  :)

I doubt it.  :P

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But I didn't reply to single you out - you brought up a point that I feel is important, and I'd like to expand a bit.

When you create a game with a high degree of complication, that requires a lot of technical skill and research to succeed; or at the very least requires it to prevent being mocked and shunned by other players; people like me will hate playing it.

I don't really care if some players are better at it than I am.  What disturbs me is when those players start purposely restricting what I'm allowed to do because I didn't do something way back at level 5 that only those who read some obscure wiki page know to do, and therefore I don't deserve to play this game (that actually happened to me in SWTOR).

Creating a game that caters strongly to those types of players will eventually drive off all the casual players who don't need a 2nd full tine job.  Kind of like EVE Online did.

In CoX there were basically two extremes: the min/max-ers, and the people who shunned IOs completely.  Between those two extremes, however, was a whole continuum of players.  I hardly considered myself to be anywhere near elite, FWIW, and I never once required anyone to have a certain build or set of bonuses to join anything I ran-- just to know what the hell you were doing with your character.  (And even that was a loose requirement, because I never kicked anyone off a team for any reason besides blatant leeching.)

My point is that you could still be damn good at playing your character without a single purple set or min/maxing.  You probably weren't gonna solo an AV but who cares?  That's what teams were for.  As I understand EVE, if you don't min/max you'll be toast (and you can probably get just as much enjoyment out of opening up Excel and moving numbers around).
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HEATSTROKE

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2013, 12:11:59 AM »
Thank you... not every toon I ever made had purples.. in fact some had little to no IO sets at all and played perfectly fine.. but if I wanted to do so I had the ABILITY to do it..

blacksly

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2013, 08:31:52 PM »
When you create a game with a high degree of complication, that requires a lot of technical skill and research to succeed; or at the very least requires it to prevent being mocked and shunned by other players; people like me will hate playing it.

I don't really care if some players are better at it than I am.  What disturbs me is when those players start purposely restricting what I'm allowed to do because I didn't do something way back at level 5 that only those who read some obscure wiki page know to do, and therefore I don't deserve to play this game (that actually happened to me in SWTOR).

While I'm sure that it happened in CoH, on occasion, I can say that I played since the tail end of Issue 1 until Issue 16... and I don't recall of a single instance where any character was booted or told off for not being properly built or equipped. Now, for playing like an idiot, that happened... but in CoH, the difference between a very well equipped character and a poorly equipped character was a lot less than in basically any other popular game. Yes, it got very complicated at the end, but you did not need to be a major character designer in Mids to be a useful and desirable member of any normal group.

Segev

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2013, 01:45:29 PM »
One thing to be cautious of in making declarations about mechanics - hypothetical or otherwise - is to make sure you identify whether the mechanic is actually the source of the problem, or merely the scapegoat. It is true that anything which has a sliding scale of effectiveness is going to mean that those with the highest-tier things in that scale will be better, mechanically, than those without. The degree of this slide will do a lot to determine how "must-have" the highest-tier stuff will be, just as the degree of effectiveness of a given build can determine how essential choosing an optimal one is.

At the same time, however, that is no reason to refuse to have a sliding scale; the whole point behind certain aspects of gameplay is to "get better stuff" so you can have bigger numbers or get cooler tricks. It's the reward system that people expect in MMOs. No matter how much we might want to include attention to other sub-games people play with our product, it would be foolish to ignore this aspect of gameplay, so central to the connotation of "MMO." I'm not advocating making a grind-fest, here, but I am saying that swinging so far away from it that you reject the core formula entirely is foolish.

As long as any "this is subjectively better than that" is present in a game, you WILL have players who settle into a kind of elitism over it. Whether their subjective "best" is accurate objectively or not, they will demand other players who play with them conform to their standards.  This can be "only somebody with all purples," or it can be "only ice controllers; any other controller sucks," or any number of other supposed "this is the bare minimum because without it you're just in my way."

We can't prevent people from playing the game this way. We can do our best to provide tools for finding friends and groups with those who do NOT behave this way. But we're certainly not kicking these people out of the game; they're players and customers, too, and while their rudeness is not condoned, attempting to police it gets dangerously close to policing preferences. "Block them and move on," would be my advice.

What we CAN do is attempt to find innovative ways to make pure power-building less feasible and less necessary. The latter is actually hard, because too little reward for "all purple" builds means people who worked for them don't feel it was worth the effort, while making it geared for whatever "normal" builds are expected to be can lead to "all purple" players complaining about how easy the game is. CoX offered the ability to slide the difficulty up and down to accommodate different optimization and skill levels, and that is one potential solution. It still leads to there being those who will take the attitude that if you can't handle a maxxed-out difficulty slider (which, they are certain, is impossible without all purples), you're a detriment.

The former - innovations on how to handle these things - can also only take us so far. The "awesomeness" resource I hypothesized earlier would mean it takes a long time for you to be able to slot "all purples," because having that much "awesomeness" is much harder to get than merely capping out your level. We could prevent it all the way by capping awesomeness, though I am somewhat intrigued by the idea that increasing "awesomeness" goes on even after you hit level cap. It might be something for exp to go into, making it so that exp is still worth getting even after you cap out your level.

In any event, make sure to keep in mind that mechanics may not be to blame for problems you had interacting with other players; it could just be that you and they have distinctly different play styles or preferences. Be polite to them and have a bit of a thick skin if they're not going to reciprocate. We will have "ignore" features to let you handle particularly abusive jerks, and while I won't make any promises (there must be a reason that every MMO ever has people complaining about GMs not doing enough when somebody is reported), genuinely rule-breaking rudeness can also be reported for possible punitive action.

I do think social pressure and holding ourselves to a high standard of cordiality combined with judicious use of the tools we have control over as players will be more productive, but that doesn't mean MWM will tolerate genuine malfeasance. (And, lest we get lost on that subject, I'll close by reitterating: I don't think being elitist rises to this level of bad behavior. Just recognize that there will always be those who will have standards that are ridiculously exacting, and don't deal with them if it causes you problems.)

Do discuss ways mechanics might help mitigate, rather than encourage, player interaction problems, but don't make the mistake of assuming the mechanics are the sole cause of it nor that stripping them down would resolve them. It takes more delicacy than that, or it would be a solved problem by now!

thunderforce

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2013, 01:55:59 PM »
At the same time, however, that is no reason to refuse to have a sliding scale; the whole point behind certain aspects of gameplay is to "get better stuff" so you can have bigger numbers or get cooler tricks. It's the reward system that people expect in MMOs. No matter how much we might want to include attention to other sub-games people play with our product, it would be foolish to ignore this aspect of gameplay, so central to the connotation of "MMO." I'm not advocating making a grind-fest, here, but I am saying that swinging so far away from it that you reject the core formula entirely is foolish.

I can think of a game that at-release very nearly did that. Once you'd got a reasonable amount of the in-game currency, you could buy all the things you wanted easily, with only one late-game raid which gave modest rewards and which a lot of players didn't bother with, preferring to go back to the character creator when they reached the maximum level. The game was popular, although it only much later introduced the stock MMO grind.

It was called "City of Heroes", as I recall.

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CoX offered the ability to slide the difficulty up and down to accommodate different optimization and skill levels, and that is one potential solution.

I don't think it's meaningfully a solution as soon as players team up or desire fair PVP, as mentioned upthread.

Segev

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2013, 02:51:46 PM »
And yet people still had issues with other players insisting that lacking "all purples" means you're not fit to party with.

If you liked how CoH did it, you probably won't be overly disappointed with our approach, as we're coming from that tradition. But I think my point still stands: the sliding scale EXISTED. And people DID play for it. Some would go back and build alts instead - great! - while others pursued end-game - also great!

Minotaur

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2013, 03:10:23 PM »
And yet people still had issues with other players insisting that lacking "all purples" means you're not fit to party with.

That IMO (and I played tens of thousands of hours) is a myth, many of the best builds didn't contain purples or not many.

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If you liked how CoH did it, you probably won't be overly disappointed with our approach, as we're coming from that tradition. But I think my point still stands: the sliding scale EXISTED. And people DID play for it. Some would go back and build alts instead - great! - while others pursued end-game - also great!

I did both, the end game was great fun if you were on a server where the raids were run regularly, but it was possible to achieve through the solo DA stuff.

Segev

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
That is was a myth is good; it means the mechanics were not forcing it there. I don't discount that some players encountered problems with other players holding to that myth in frustrating ways, though.

Which, again, reinforces my point: don't confuse players' opinions with facts, and don't expect even the best-designed mechanics to correct problems you might have had with other players.

Minotaur

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Re: TIMING OF LEGACY PROJECTS
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2013, 11:45:45 PM »
That is was a myth is good; it means the mechanics were not forcing it there. I don't discount that some players encountered problems with other players holding to that myth in frustrating ways, though.

Which, again, reinforces my point: don't confuse players' opinions with facts, and don't expect even the best-designed mechanics to correct problems you might have had with other players.

People were occasionally kicked for bad builds, but it was usually tanks with no mez protection, force fielders with no bubbles or characters with 12 powers from travel pools and nothing useful, not lack of purples or IOs.