New efforts!

[Azrael]

*UPDATE*

I don't have a lot of news but they are threading through the Corporate hoops and at least have a person who knows NCSoft well to try and make it easier. I know I have said this before but with big companies it really is part of their process. It could take a while - sorry to say. I have an idea to try that might cut through some of the red tape and have the approval to try it. The business side of things is a vastly different world from what most people have experience with.

Folks here is the reality of what is happening: NCSoft and Cryptic will insist their logos remain on the game as they want recognition for their efforts in the past. Due to this they do not want their name on a product run by a group who will not do it justice. This did stop at least 2 different groups from acquiring it in the past, that had money but no true studio. These delays and hoops to jump through are part of the vetting process. It is going to take time to let them see the group making the offer is serious and does have the resources to pull it off.

Like them or loathe them NCSoft has actually done well in choosing the studios for games - the track record on the games isn't as good as the companies they pick. The folks are working on it and may need to make adjustments to reflect what NCSoft wants to see. You can be assured silence is not reflecting a lack of effort.

Iron Wolf,

Thanks for the update.  You've done a good job of explaining the basic realities of the situation.  Due diligence.  Which means the Big Wheels turn slowly.

Aye, it is a game of patience.  That's the way big business works.  NC Soft have a duty of care to make sure the 'studio' who are buying the CoH game can serve the CoH community.

They might seek assurances that the bidding group can field a studio that can handle an MMO.  It's NC Soft's ball.  It's their 'liability' at risk.  So they call the tune.  Hopefully the bidding 'studio' can seek steady footing on any sticking points where NC Soft seeks reassurance that the Coh legacy will be in safe hands.

Say what we like about NC Soft, they bought the game.  They pumped money into Paragon Studios.  CoH got to be much further along than I ever thought it would due to that investment.  (The party just didn't end well.  That could have been handled better.)

Patience.  At least the 'Studio' and CoH heir apparents have a price, an NC Soft contact and are traversing the 'web' of potential NC Soft corporate hoops or sticking points. 

I view this process, while slow, a constructive one.  We will learn much.  Win or lose on this.

Look forward to the next update, Iron Wolf.

Best wishes,

Azrael.

[Goddangit]

Wow, IronWolf, thank you! 

I read through the first few pages of this (very long) thread and was so excited.  I flipped to the last page and find a bunch of COHers complaining about AE, power-levelers, and influence inflation. 

Two years later and people still want to dictate how others play the game we all love?

Surreal.

If we can get our game back, I won't care if EVERYONE is powerleveling on tanks with no taunt, mm's with no pets, and healers with no damage OR heals/buffs--heck, they can just use brawl--... all while jingling billions in influence.  I'd be thrilled beyond words to team with them.

If I had a dollar for every time I was told I was doing it wrong with multiple characters I would have enough to pay for a lifetime subscription when the game goes live again.

And people wondered why I seldom teamed...

[MWRuger]

That was perhaps the best thing about the auctions, was that it was very hard/impossible to rig the market.  Thing was it was very possible to get the high priced items and place them on sale for a reasonable price, and you couldn't see what others were pricing at.  This actually kept the market a lot more stable. 

Good luck getting people to believe that! You're correct of course, but some people absolutely believed in a market cabal secretly rigging the market.  It was so easy to disprove, because it was pretty easy to make a lot of money once you knew how and were willing.

There was group. much earlier in the game called "the Luck Charmers" thier goal was to corner the market and reset the price. To do this spent a ton of inf to buy as many as they could, even to the point of overpaying. People made a bundle selling luck charms to these guys for a couple of weeks. (no one complained about getting 250,000 for a luck charm but they did bitch if they needed to buy one)

Once the had amasses a vast stock of these things, they started selling them for a fixed price, I think, like 10,000. (Naturally people complained that they couldn't get more than that.) Then for two weeks the prices was fixed at 10,000 with occasional spikes when someone in the cabal forgot to replenish stock. In the end, they lost a bundle (not that they missed it I suppose) and within a week, it was right back where it was before they started.

They were pretty sure that was how it would work, but they wanted to test on something that was actually plentiful but still in demand. The point is that the amount of effort to conduct the experiment was vast and costly. No one who understood the market and was actually trying to make inf EVER tried crap like this. But people still think were secret price controls.

[downix]

If I had a dollar for every time I was told I was doing it wrong with multiple characters I would have enough to pay for a lifetime subscription when the game goes live again.

And people wondered why I seldom teamed...

I had someone tell me once that arrow/fire blasters were pathetic.

I proceeded to wipe out four mobs in under a minute.

[LaughingAlex]

I had someone tell me once that arrow/fire blasters were pathetic.

I proceeded to wipe out four mobs in under a minute.

I honestly think there are only a few powersets that are actually UP.  But archery or fire?  Eh, thats hillarious considering both had the best AoE damage in the game for blasters, or were very close to that.  Trick Archery may have needed some buffs, being overshadowed by storm summoning and radiation even before time manipulation came out, but then it wasn't that far behind either.  Super reflexes, if I had my way, woulda been changed to be closer to the brute equivilent on scrappers/stalkers since AoE defense arrived to late in the sets, but once you got to the max it was especially funny to see everything missing you and even -def enemies not defense cascading you(talking about the implementation of defense resistance on LR).  I could think of a few but, as I said they are very few and far between.  And fire and archery were pretty good.

[MWRuger]

My final word (probably) on the market.

The COH forums had a section on the market and it had a reputation for being testy. It was totally undeserved (mostly there are always a few rude types). True, if you came on there and flamed a bunch of the market gurus with totally incorrect statements or accused them of ruining the game with market manipulation, they would get upset. It got so bad they actually adopted the moniker "The Ebill Marketeers" (Entry into the group was a screen shot of you character drinking tea with a tophat and monocle showing your money at the cap:


Detective 1st class Tracy (Rich)

But if you had a question or needed advice on how to do something they would gladly help. Sometimes if you need some inf, you could just ask. One guy offered to fund anyone from level 1 to 50 with Single origin I/O's (this was because some players said it was impossible to make money), no questions asked. I contributed to that fund myself.

They made countless guides on how the market worked. Then they were accused of having it easy since they were already wealthy.

They did guides to show you how to get to 200 million by level 10. They did guides (0 inf to the cap in 30 days) where that started a new character and used no reserve inf. Then it was claimed "that you can only make money if you engage in heavy marketing."

So they did guides where they did no marketing other than what dropped as they played the character (this takes longer, but they still hit the inf cap and had a fully I/O'ed character.) Then they were accused of farming.

So they did a guide that showed mission by mission, with screenshots showing what dropped and how they sold it and so on. You would think, that after all that, players would finally say "Huh. I guess you can make money pretty easily"

Nope, just like trying to corner the market, it didn't do a bit of good. People still wouldn't believe it, even with screenshots.

But really, overall, they were some of the nicest and most helpful people I ever met, in game or out, despite being reviled by a large amount of the player base.

[CreVo]

The "forums" as you described were not the most active center for the real player base. Majority of people who did market plays which caused fluxes in prices weren't the people you're speaking about. For example, this fellow from the Guardian Server by the name of Godlike would often buy out and resell for high prices and openly brag about doing so. This was very common, though not for large scale items like purples etc. I'm speaking mostly on salvage. Prices often would leap from 100k - 1mil - 3mil in magic salvage due to buyouts. Even the lower end salvage that costed 100-200 would flux due to people doing the buy reposts. You shouldn't ever base your argument on the Forums.

I'm not willing to argue it past that, as it's irrelevant to this topic at hand. I'm more interested in just having the City back to its players. As a Beta to closing player, I'd really rather not fight about the games past and just try to look forward to its future.

On the note of lack luster power sets though; It's not that i believe any of them to be "worthless" I just feel some of them could use to revamping due to game changes. Invuln for example, or Super Reflexes. Both fine sets, but could use some changes to fit in better with some of the newer sets introduced. Like their reworking of Energy aura, was absolutely beautiful.

[MWRuger]

The "forums" as you described were not the most active center for the real player base. Majority of people who did market plays which caused fluxes in prices weren't the people you're speaking about. For example, this fellow from the Guardian Server by the name of Godlike would often buy out and resell for high prices and openly brag about doing so. This was very common, though not for large scale items like purples etc. I'm speaking mostly on salvage. Prices often would leap from 100k - 1mil - 3mil in magic salvage due to buyouts. Even the lower end salvage that costed 100-200 would flux due to people doing the buy reposts. You shouldn't ever base your argument on the Forums.

Again, you didn't have to pay it. Be patient. Of course what it sounds like you really want is 1.) Cheap and 2.) Now, period.

But your memory is pretty faulty regarding pricing. useful rare salvage ran from 1.5 to 2 million, more or less.  I bought thousands of these. The price was very steady. Now you might not want to pay it, but that was the cost. Common and uncommon did fluctuate, but again you didn't have to  pay it. You set the price you were willing to pay and if you were patient, you got it.

But my last post wasn't in support of any previous argument. It was simply a statement of fact. If you don't believe me, go look up the archived forums and see for yourself. Of course there were jerks, as I said, but they were not the rule.

But really, you can't use the forums to support an argument? So I couldn't use Arcanaville's posts on math? (who also posted on the Market Forum). Just because you didn't read them doesn't mean that the market was obligated to work contrary to the way it did. It has hardly the fault of the people who used the market that other players couldn't or wouldn't take advantage of freely offered help. For every jerk like "Godlike" there were many who never said anything at all or actually helped people.

But you are correct when you say it is irrelevant to the topic. I'll give you the last word and let my previous posts on the subject stand as reply for those interested.

[Ohioknight]

*UPDATE*

I don't have a lot of news but they are threading through the Corporate hoops and at least have a person who knows NCSoft well to try and make it easier. I know I have said this before but with big companies it really is part of their process. It could take a while - sorry to say. I have an idea to try that might cut through some of the red tape and have the approval to try it. The business side of things is a vastly different world from what most people have experience with.

Folks here is the reality of what is happening: NCSoft and Cryptic will insist their logos remain on the game as they want recognition for their efforts in the past. Due to this they do not want their name on a product run by a group who will not do it justice. This did stop at least 2 different groups from acquiring it in the past, that had money but no true studio. These delays and hoops to jump through are part of the vetting process. It is going to take time to let them see the group making the offer is serious and does have the resources to pull it off.

Like them or loathe them NCSoft has actually done well in choosing the studios for games - the track record on the games isn't as good as the companies they pick. The folks are working on it and may need to make adjustments to reflect what NCSoft wants to see. You can be assured silence is not reflecting a lack of effort.

Thanks, Ironwolfe (again and for the whole thing) -- but your update does imply an additional issue... to your knowledge do they need CRYPTIC's approval to buy it... in addition to NCSoft???  Will this require an additional set of negotiations?

[HEATSTROKE]

Thanks, Ironwolfe (again and for the whole thing) -- but your update does imply an additional issue... to your knowledge do they need CRYPTIC's approval to buy it... in addition to NCSoft???  Will this require an additional set of negotiations?

 I doubt it since Cryptic sold it to NC Soft lock stock and barrel..

[downix]

Thanks, Ironwolfe (again and for the whole thing) -- but your update does imply an additional issue... to your knowledge do they need CRYPTIC's approval to buy it... in addition to NCSoft???  Will this require an additional set of negotiations?

Doubtful, unless the engine is involved and there is a right of first refusal involved.

[Ironwolf]

Thanks, Ironwolfe (again and for the whole thing) -- but your update does imply an additional issue... to your knowledge do they need CRYPTIC's approval to buy it... in addition to NCSoft???  Will this require an additional set of negotiations?

No Jack Emmert said the engine was all NCSoft's now.

However I am certain there was a clause they must retain the logo in the contract and no doubt it will be grandfathered in - I could be wrog on the Cryptic one but it seems likely.

[hejtmane]

The "forums" as you described were not the most active center for the real player base. Majority of people who did market plays which caused fluxes in prices weren't the people you're speaking about. For example, this fellow from the Guardian Server by the name of Godlike would often buy out and resell for high prices and openly brag about doing so. This was very common, though not for large scale items like purples etc. I'm speaking mostly on salvage. Prices often would leap from 100k - 1mil - 3mil in magic salvage due to buyouts. Even the lower end salvage that costed 100-200 would flux due to people doing the buy reposts. You shouldn't ever base your argument on the Forums.

I'm not willing to argue it past that, as it's irrelevant to this topic at hand. I'm more interested in just having the City back to its players. As a Beta to closing player, I'd really rather not fight about the games past and just try to look forward to its future.

On the note of lack luster power sets though; It's not that i believe any of them to be "worthless" I just feel some of them could use to revamping due to game changes. Invuln for example, or Super Reflexes. Both fine sets, but could use some changes to fit in better with some of the newer sets introduced. Like their reworking of Energy aura, was absolutely beautiful.

I read the post I found it entertaining to read them and some of the reply's.  I would dabble in the market when I would get bored; heck I would go pick a white common salvage that would sell to the normal vendor for 250 and buy all the ones $225 and below  and within an hour I would adjust the price market on 1-2 common white salvage to at least $250 made a little money but it was more just because it was something to do to change things up. I funded most my purples; farming AE and bronze rolls quite lucrative if you do not like playing the market; Heck I built half a character off my own bronze roles on the other sets I needed saving millions and selling the expensive sets for going rate.

Yes patience was required to keep from overpaying sometimes you just needed to set on a price for a week or two

[HEATSTROKE]

*UPDATE*

I don't have a lot of news but they are threading through the Corporate hoops and at least have a person who knows NCSoft well to try and make it easier. I know I have said this before but with big companies it really is part of their process. It could take a while - sorry to say. I have an idea to try that might cut through some of the red tape and have the approval to try it. The business side of things is a vastly different world from what most people have experience with.

Folks here is the reality of what is happening: NCSoft and Cryptic will insist their logos remain on the game as they want recognition for their efforts in the past. Due to this they do not want their name on a product run by a group who will not do it justice. This did stop at least 2 different groups from acquiring it in the past, that had money but no true studio. These delays and hoops to jump through are part of the vetting process. It is going to take time to let them see the group making the offer is serious and does have the resources to pull it off.

Like them or loathe them NCSoft has actually done well in choosing the studios for games - the track record on the games isn't as good as the companies they pick. The folks are working on it and may need to make adjustments to reflect what NCSoft wants to see. You can be assured silence is not reflecting a lack of effort.

This post has me somewhat in a quandry.. and its probably because I dont understand how the corporate structure works..

They were given a price.. and a meeting was to take place...

so why are they threading through "corporate hoops"

Im not really asking the why.. its more help me to understand the process of how the structure works..

[Rigo42]

*UPDATE*

I don't have a lot of news but they are threading through the Corporate hoops and at least have a person who knows NCSoft well to try and make it easier. I know I have said this before but with big companies it really is part of their process. It could take a while - sorry to say. I have an idea to try that might cut through some of the red tape and have the approval to try it. The business side of things is a vastly different world from what most people have experience with.

Folks here is the reality of what is happening: NCSoft and Cryptic will insist their logos remain on the game as they want recognition for their efforts in the past. Due to this they do not want their name on a product run by a group who will not do it justice. This did stop at least 2 different groups from acquiring it in the past, that had money but no true studio. These delays and hoops to jump through are part of the vetting process. It is going to take time to let them see the group making the offer is serious and does have the resources to pull it off.

Like them or loathe them NCSoft has actually done well in choosing the studios for games - the track record on the games isn't as good as the companies they pick. The folks are working on it and may need to make adjustments to reflect what NCSoft wants to see. You can be assured silence is not reflecting a lack of effort.

I don't post much on these forums, but I read everyday to keep up with the news.
Thanks for being an awesome person and one of the many reasons coming back and checking these forums on a daily basis is worth it

[JetFlash]

If I can one day return to Paragon to thwart the forces of Evil (tm), then I have zero issue with NCSoft and Cryptic having their logos displayed.  Heck, I'd have them tattooed on each arm (OK maybe not that, but hey!)

And thank you Ironwolf for your efforts.

[Remaugen]

Thanks Ironwolf!

[Triplash]

But if you had a question or needed advice on how to do something they would gladly help. Sometimes if you need some inf, you could just ask. One guy offered to fund anyone from level 1 to 50 with Single origin I/O's (this was because some players said it was impossible to make money), no questions asked. I contributed to that fund myself.

They made countless guides on how the market worked. Then they were accused of having it easy since they were already wealthy.

They did guides to show you how to get to 200 million by level 10. They did guides (0 inf to the cap in 30 days) where that started a new character and used no reserve inf. Then it was claimed "that you can only make money if you engage in heavy marketing."

So they did guides where they did no marketing other than what dropped as they played the character (this takes longer, but they still hit the inf cap and had a fully I/O'ed character.) Then they were accused of farming.

So they did a guide that showed mission by mission, with screenshots showing what dropped and how they sold it and so on. You would think, that after all that, players would finally say "Huh. I guess you can make money pretty easily"

Nope, just like trying to corner the market, it didn't do a bit of good. People still wouldn't believe it, even with screenshots.

But really, overall, they were some of the nicest and most helpful people I ever met, in game or out, despite being reviled by a large amount of the player base.

This. So very much this.

The market never really bothered me, but it sure did confuse the heck out of me for a long time. Then one day I got tired of being poor, and decided it was time to read those guides and see if they worked.

And hooey boy, did they ever work. Once I started actually doing what they were recommending, I began bringing in hundreds of millions of inf at a time. You're so right that many of the experts were very helpful; they wanted to see you making gobs of inf too, because they knew there was plenty enough to go around.

Just like with using IO sets, the only difficult thing about the market was the learning curve. Figuring it out the first time could be tough, but once it 'clicked' and you saw how simple it really was, it was hard to want to do it any other way.

[downix]

This post has me somewhat in a quandry.. and its probably because I dont understand how the corporate structure works..

They were given a price.. and a meeting was to take place...

so why are they threading through "corporate hoops"

Im not really asking the why.. its more help me to understand the process of how the structure works..

It is common when dealing with public companies like NCSoft that they set down particular requirements before a sale of property. Making sure the other company has a suitable organization, has sufficient assets to back production, has the right talent to support it, and so forth. The reason why is that if the company they did business with goes under unexpectedly, or worse is a fly-by-night operation, then the public company would get a massive hit on the stock price. It makes them very cautious.

Speaking as someone who worked for a company which was part of such deals in the past. We had to have complete audits, even of the items we had at our cubicles. Even a smartphone out of place could get you fired, they were that afraid of the wrong information leaking during the negotiations and killing the deal.

[MWRuger]

This post has me somewhat in a quandry.. and its probably because I dont understand how the corporate structure works..

They were given a price.. and a meeting was to take place...

so why are they threading through "corporate hoops"

Im not really asking the why.. its more help me to understand the process of how the structure works..

I'll see if I can explain this. What probably happened is something like this. They informally asked NCSoft what they wanted for the property, engine or whatever. NCSoft said 7,509, 266 Quatloos. Unknown investor group says "doable". That was the easy part.

You ask that first, because there is no point in going through the hassle of hiring attorneys, checking for right clearances, arranging a meeting, hiring translators if both parties can't even get into the same area on price.

Now both sides will look for deal breakers. What could derail the entire process? If either side finds a potential one, they won't talk about it, but their negotiators will see what kind of wiggle room there is and what both parties will accept to overcome the obstacle.

Take this Cryptic question. In NCSoft's mind this might be something they want so that Cryptic can't come back and cry foul. When that deal was done, it is likely that neither party envisioned a future sale of the property, so likely there is no language in the contract. So the negotiators will discuss with the unknown buyers "would you have a problem keeping Cryptic's name on there?" Unknown buyers signal "Yes or No". If they say yes then NCsoft will likely contact Cryptic and ask if they feel like they are entitled to keep the name on the game if it's sold. Their lawyers will look at the sales agreement and see if they can or should force the issue. Eventually someone at Cryptic will say yes or no. Depending on the answer negotiators will try and figure out an agreement that everyone can live with to avoid litigation. But if two parties become intractable, the deal's off.

You also have to consider strategy. Maybe you give on the Cryptic thing because you know of some other hurdle. You can use the give and take to soften the other sides position. Sometimes you argue hard knowing you are giving in so the other side feels like they have rung a concession from you.

There is no way we can know from where we are how many issues like this must be resolved.

BUT, once all the points have been settled and draft agreements have been typed, read by both sides, vetted by the lawyers then and only then will the actual buyers and the actual sellers meet. This can be the most delicate moment of the entire deal. If either side gets jittery the entire thing can collapse.

Assuming that doesn't happen, both sides sign the deal (also assuming no governmental authorities throw up a roadblock). Then a new round of negotiations will start about the timetable and the transfer of assets.

Then once the considerations are met, payments made, assets transferred, implementation debugged, we are ready for a new closed beta.

Keep in mind that secrecy is vital at most stages because you don't want to tip your hand to the other side. AND this assumes a relatively straight forward deal. Numerous complications can arise. Suppose another interested party comes out of the wood works? Suppose the former Paragon Devs feel that their contracts entitle them to some cut? (just an example)

Anything that has to be adjudicated adds final cost to the deal and both parties will assess whether they want to move forward. Since it is an international deal, which court will you file in, the counter motions alone can be expensive as well as jurisdictional disputes.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but these are the kind of things that have to be dealt with and it takes time and money. The more money involved, the more careful everyone wants to be. In a case where both sides are motivated and mostly in agreement, it can go pretty fast. If not, then it can take longer. But everyone needs to understand that it's not a simple deal where someone says "Wanna buy a MMO?" and the other guy says "Take my Money!" and they celebrate.

PS. NO, I don't know that any of these things are actual issues since I'm not involved with the project, but they might be, so be patient.