Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: Rae on October 27, 2012, 01:49:00 PM
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There's a guy on one of the Facebook groups saying that NC Soft banned his COH account for statements he made on their Facebook wall.
I don't know if there's more to this, or if he did something in game to warrant the ban, but be careful if you're facebook ranting :)
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=farm9.staticflickr.com%2F8045%2F8127826707_15b7cce291.jpg)
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Link not working?
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Whoops. Try that.
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If there are other people it might be good for them to approach the media about that? NCSoft banning their whole accounts, with games they've paid for, because they didn't like what they said?
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Absolutely.
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Link? I don't see a link in the post at all. None.
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Link? I don't see a link in the post at all. None.
You don't see the two screenshots/pics? I think that's the link.
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I see a picture, but I also only see the closing end of a [/url] tag.
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If there are other people it might be good for them to approach the media about that? NCSoft banning their whole accounts, with games they've paid for, because they didn't like what they said?
This.
Definitely.
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well luckily for me my fb account doesn't have my name on it and the email attached to it isn't the one i use for ncsoft then. If you want to post on the nc fb just use an alt fb account. One that can't be traced back to your CoX
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http://www.facebook.com/groups/SaveCityofHeroes/
That's the group it was posted in. Sorry for the confusion!
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wait now before running to the media, it's best to have all the facts here. Because if we start running to the media causing a stink about it and this guy turns out to been trolling and or did something that actually warrented a ban or was banned in game first and then tried to get revenge on the facebook, then we'll look like bums. Right now we see one side of the story and really no mention of what exactly he said or did, in game or not.
While I wouldnt put it past them, it just seem odd with all the negative comments about NCSoft floating out there on facebook and stuff, and some are pretty harsh worded, that this guy just so happen to have his account banned.
On the other hand, I would never link anything with something else.
Also have to be careful as I think it do state in their policy that they can ban accounts for no reason or when they see fit. Should they? Hell no!
But think though, I bet there is one person you can think of that if they strolled here into these boards right now and posted something, you would ban them just based on the past old forum postings alone and not what they posted in the present on this board.
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Looks like I didn't hit the requisite snark level in my FB posts: GW1 still works. =P
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If this were to be confirmed, then they really, really are asking for an all out war... and they should expect even more bad coming their way !
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It's why I said "if there are other people", Jaguar. ;)
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What about those other accounts that were reported to be 'randomly' locked for no reason? Maybe they just never made the FB connection?
Wait on more info and see if this happens again.
If they're banning in-game accounts for FB acticity (a public site that NCsoft doesn't own) wow.
Though I don't know how much sympathy we'd get. People are getting fired from jobs because of Facebook and everyone sees no problem with it.
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It's why I said "if there are other people", Jaguar. ;)
ah right missed that part. This is what I get for getting out of bed before 12 noon and trying to read. lol.
Yeah, if anyone else it would be good to step up and share the story, preferabley the whole story though. Nothing worse than going to bat for someone only to find out they were the monkey of the situation after all because they only told you half of the story.
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What about those other accounts that were reported to be 'randomly' locked for no reason? Maybe they just never made the FB connection?
Wait on more info and see if this happens again.
If they're banning in-game accounts for FB acticity (a public site that NCsoft doesn't own) wow.
Though I don't know how much sympathy we'd get. People are getting fired from jobs because of Facebook and everyone sees no problem with it.
damn. that is true.
As messed up as it is to lose a job over facebook, it has happen and no one give a hoot besides some that say "Well they should of been more careful of what they posted." We live in a strange world eh.
I still dont think it's right to fire someone over a facebook posting, or ban an in game account because of they had something negative to say (this is assuming that this is all it is about.) on a different media outlet.
Now this got me thinking though. If we are going to make a fuss about it, when the old forum close down, we probably shouldnt turn around an ban people for being negative or dont agree with them ourselves. It would be like if someone comes here and say "I hate Titan network." While I'd probably think, "Who is this fool to come here say that on Titan network forum? He probably should be banned." That may be the same logic of NCSoft with "Who is this guy to try and blast us on our own facebook page? Ban him!" If we going to get at NCSoft for doing it, would it be proper to do it ourselves?
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Now this got me thinking though. If we are going to make a fuss about it, when the old forum close down, we probably shouldnt turn around an ban people for being negative or dont agree with them ourselves. It would be like if someone comes here and say "I hate Titan network." While I'd probably think, "Who is this fool to come here say that on Titan network forum? He probably should be banned." That may be the same logic of NCSoft with "Who is this guy to try and blast us on our own facebook page? Ban him!" If we going to get at NCSoft for doing it, would it be proper to do it ourselves?
Different context. For us to do what NCSoft seems to be doing, we would have to ban them from this forum and then email their boss and get them fired, too (a little extreme comparison, but we don't have a 2nd location to use as an example).
I actually know one person who had their CoH account "closed", and they don't post here or to Facebook. The only possible way NCSoft could have seen anything one of them said was if they were watching CoH chat logs, or possibly chat logs in Guild Wars 2, because those are the only places this person said anything bad about NCSoft (B&S in particular). I was right there with this person in CoH though, and my account didn't get "closed", so even that assumption is very thin.
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Business is often compared to war. We've used our own conflict rhetoric in this for a while. We should fully expect NCsoft to 'fight' back at least somewhat. Account closures are cheaper than losing. So are some petty suits for libel, if you leave yourself open to them. Please be careful what you say, ensuring that it is: (a) accurate and fair, or (b) clearly stated as personal opinion, or (c) a direct quote with citation.
Losing the fight will cost NCsoft an unknown amount, but estimated at certainly millions of dollars, and possibly hundreds of millions of dollars. Compared to those figures, attempting to scare us all off with a few $50k lawsuits would be an obvious idea, if we leave ourselves open to it. NCsoft will need to be seen to act in order to attempt to keep value in their shares and company. We should anticipate it, and ensure we do not leave ourselves open to law suits. Keep what you say legal, fair, accurate, or clearly stated as a personal opinion.
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Though I don't know how much sympathy we'd get. People are getting fired from jobs because of Facebook and everyone sees no problem with it.
Ah, but it still makes the news. I've seen articles about it happening - which I think would already be a good thing.
And from what I've seen opinions about it vary, some say they've had it coming, others find it a violation of free speech that they get persecuted for something they said in their free time.
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Well, I mean, for all we know this guy could have been banned for something he said or did in COH, or something. I mean people are still getting banned in game for things they were being banned for before they decided to try and shut us down, I presume.
Or, it could be genuine, in which case it's not on. It makes sense they've ban him from posting on their FB page, but to ban him from the game for something he did on Facebook is not cool.
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Well, I mean, for all we know this guy could have been banned for something he said or did in COH, or something. I mean people are still getting banned in game for things they were being banned for before they decided to try and shut us down, I presume.
Or, it could be genuine, in which case it's not on. It makes sense they've ban him from posting on their FB page, but to ban him from the game for something he did on Facebook is not cool.
Yep, it could be numerous offenses - exploiting in game, trying to hack NCSoft property, etc...
Hence my original wait and see suggestion.
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I have been following that thread on Fb and as far as i am aware, here is the post that got him banned :
"I'm sure this post won't last long on their site : NCSoft is a hateful company ! You killed our game ! You killed City of Heroes ! I will do all in my power to ensure everyone hears how you killed a very loyal fanbase ! You can delete my comments here, but you CANNOT silence me. You CANNOT silence us. We will NOT go away. SaveCoH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Sadly i guess he stepped over the line. I have been trying to encourage people to keep it respectful but it is inevitable that some will allow their indignation to get out of hand - understandable but unfortunate.
Bit of a non techie here and have no idea how to post a link to this but it is on the Save City of Heroes FB page. It's still being commented on so it's easy to find.
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Sadly i guess he stepped over the line. I have been trying to encourage people to keep it respectful but it is inevitable that some will allow their indignation to get out of hand - understandable but unfortunate.
Bit of a non techie here and have no idea how to post a link to this but it is on the Save City of Heroes FB page. It's still being commented on so it's easy to find.
Yeah, it's regrettable that NCSoft's let it come to this... just as I said in my email to them, they were actually a company I respected and very much my "premier MMO publisher" (like they say on their website), all my dealings with their customer service had always been positive - as I used to point out to all of those saying NCSoft's customer service sucked.
The fall of an idol always hurts... =P
So of all the game companies that I used to love, there's only Blizzard left - though not for WoW, but for their other excellent titles.
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It's not like there were death threats or anything, but yes, that's a little over the top.
However, this does reveal something vital! NCSoft is reading our facebook comments. In English. It confirms that behind their "Wall of Silence," they're uncomfortably aware of being blackballed and badmouthed by a large and angry torch-bearing mob of gamers.
(Often those in a weak position will put on a show of ignoring an antagonist, as if to say "you're beneath my notice," when in fact they're unable to launch any sort of counterattack or refutation.)
We need confirmation from this "Zachkary Michael" to be sure. If there's another cause for his banning, we have a false positive. We might also experiment and see if we can get someone else banned.
But knowing they're reading what we write is useful, and has all manner of implications.
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However, this does reveal something vital! NCSoft is reading our facebook comments. In English. It confirms they are aware they're being blackballed and badmouthed by a large and angry torch-bearing mob of gamers.
Not necessarily. One of the very first thing that Bayesian spam filters showed was that anything with multiple exclaimation marks was over 90% likely to be spam and worthless. More than 15 exclaimation marks in a post of that length would be more than enough for any non-english speaker to know to delete the post. ;)
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Precisely! We need to experiment to eliminate all the other possibilities.
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Well I posted a medium length rant on their blade and soul post in which I made pretty much the same points as he did as well as accusing them of deliberately lying to us and calling their business practices shoddy and unethical and so far nothing has happened to my account or my posts (its post 57 on that comment thread for those interested).
I'm with the 'deleted for many many exclamation marks = potential spammer' explanation for that one.
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Personally, I think the one guy that says his account was banned just hit a nerve of someone at NCSoft. He posted over and over about how they couldn't silence him and that there was nothing they could do. I think someone went, "Oh yeah?" *banstick* That's pure speculation on my part, though.
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others find it a violation of free speech that they get persecuted for something they said in their free time.
Common misnomer.
Internet /= free speech.
A FB wall is like someone's house: You can say whatever the fuck you want on your own, but not on that of others. The same thing goes for an MMO, free speech does NOT apply on an MMO. Additionally, the EULA gives them the right to suspend/ban accounts for any reason. Do I agree with them banning (if they did)? Maybe, depends on what all he said and did.. however, not a violation of free speech.
Seriously, free speech is one of the most misunderstood elements of the constitution. So many take it to mean "I can say whatever I want, whenever I want, wherever I want without any fear of retribution from anyone!"
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. So many take it to mean "I can say whatever I want, whenever I want, wherever I want without any fear of retribution from anyone!"
Especially when they are online and "hidden" behind the computer.
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BTW, the free speech thing is only "the government can't tell me what not to say" (with some limitations). It doesn't say anyone else can't tell you what not to say when you're in their building, on their forums, at their party, on their facebook page, playing their game, talking to their child, etc. Way too many people think the free speech amendment applies much, MUCH farther than it actually does.
Also, your rights do not trump other people's rights, so if you're stepping on someone's else's rights when they are doing nothing wrong, YOU are in the wrong, not them.
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Common misnomer.
Internet /= free speech.
A FB wall is like someone's house: You can say whatever the f--- you want on your own, but not on that of others. The same thing goes for an MMO, free speech does NOT apply on an MMO. Additionally, the EULA gives them the right to suspend/ban accounts for any reason. Do I agree with them banning (if they did)? Maybe, depends on what all he said and did.. however, not a violation of free speech.
Seriously, free speech is one of the most misunderstood elements of the constitution. So many take it to mean "I can say whatever I want, whenever I want, wherever I want without any fear of retribution from anyone!"
Probably falls under their "Harassment" section or some other part of the huge EULA's all games have, yeah.
And if he said something obscene or highly offensive he wouldn't get any sympathy from anyone either, I was more trying to point out that if it was a case of NCSoft banning people for disagreeing with them it would most likely make them look bad.
Even if it's no violation of free speech, perception counts for a lot too.
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Well, their Terms of Service (not to be confused with EULA) state that they have the right to terminate your account for any reason at all. They could ban you just because they don't like your hair color.
However, I think it's unlikely they would do that to try to silence people on Facebook. That's just a dumb move because (1) You can't be absolutely certain that it's the same person who owns a particular game account, (2) Think of the public outcry and negative PR, and (3) It'll just make them yell louder.
Not saying it's impossible, but in my experience, people who post about game account bans very rarely tell the truth about the circumstances. "I wasn't botting, it was my keyboard drivers!" "It was my brother on the account!" "I have no idea where all that gold came from, I swear!"
Plus, the whole thing about "bright red BANNED" on the master account just sounds fishy and over the top to me. I mean, who does that? Some web designers with too much free time or something. I've never been banned from COH, but in WoW you just get a standard error box and are unable to log in.
TL;DR: Hold off on assuming that they're actually doing this until there's more than one case, preferably with some means of confirming that was the reason.
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Well, their Terms of Service (not to be confused with EULA) state that they have the right to terminate your account for any reason at all. They could ban you just because they don't like your hair color.
However, I think it's unlikely they would do that to try to silence people on Facebook. That's just a dumb move because (1) You can't be absolutely certain that it's the same person who owns a particular game account, (2) Think of the public outcry and negative PR, and (3) It'll just make them yell louder.
Not saying it's impossible, but in my experience, people who post about game account bans very rarely tell the truth about the circumstances. "I wasn't botting, it was my keyboard drivers!" "It was my brother on the account!" "I have no idea where all that gold came from, I swear!"
Plus, the whole thing about "bright red BANNED" on the master account just sounds fishy and over the top to me. I mean, who does that? Some web designers with too much free time or something. I've never been banned from COH, but in WoW you just get a standard error box and are unable to log in.
TL;DR: Hold off on assuming that they're actually doing this until there's more than one case, preferably with some means of confirming that was the reason.
Ah WoW... the game where you pretty much can't play without getting hacked if you don't own an authenticator, the only game where I actually wound up hacked AND banned for it =P
Fortunately it was nothing that couldn't be solved by several hours of trying to get through to Blizzard's customer support... 8)
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Funny story, I have two accounts tied to the same Authenticator (neither are active anymore), grandfathered in from before they restricted it to one each. I had migrated to the iPhone authenticator app a bit before they made that change, and when I replaced my phone I didn't want to give it up and have to get two separate authenticators.
So I hacked my own iPhone, figured out how to extract the secret key from the iOS keyring, and migrated it to a small Python program that implements the algorithm. It was a fun diversion and I learned a lot about the iPhone's hardware-assisted secure keyring. :)
So yes, authenticators CAN be hacked. It's a lot more work though, so it's no wonder the accounts not using one are a bigger target.
anything can be hacked. One time a certain high security computer system got upgraded and it was touted as the most secure system in the world of it's type. About one hour later they released statement that it got hacked and many service member's information may have been compromised.
Not to mention that I believe the Pentagon got hacked in 07 time period.
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Funny story, I have two accounts tied to the same Authenticator (neither are active anymore), grandfathered in from before they restricted it to one each. I had migrated to the iPhone authenticator app a bit before they made that change, and when I replaced my phone I didn't want to give it up and have to get two separate authenticators.
So I hacked my own iPhone, figured out how to extract the secret key from the iOS keyring, and migrated it to a small Python program that implements the algorithm. It was a fun diversion and I learned a lot about the iPhone's hardware-assisted secure keyring. :)
So yes, authenticators CAN be hacked. It's a lot more work though, so it's no wonder the accounts not using one are a bigger target.
Hah, that's awesome!
And yeah, that's pretty much what I figured - funny thing was, I didn't even get the authenticator for WoW, I got it in anticipation of Diablo 3, since my WoW account had been hacked once already and now they were adding a system that added MONEY to your account... yeah... =P
Then a scroll of resurrection showed me that during the very brief time that I had used another scroll of resurrection a few months ago they had hacked the account AGAIN, and Blizzard banned it for shady dealings 8)
"Guys! Unban it! I have one of these fancy schmancy autheticators now!"
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Personally, I think the one guy that says his account was banned just hit a nerve of someone at NCSoft. He posted over and over about how they couldn't silence him and that there was nothing they could do. I think someone went, "Oh yeah?" *banstick* That's pure speculation on my part, though.
I assume that, if this were the case, the person doing said banning is an NCsoft employee. In other words, the company that fired the devs is now paying other people to do damage control. Irony Man to the rescue?
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I'd be inclined to take this story with a brine block or two (significantly more than a "pinch" of salt) when assessing the poster's credibility.
At this point, the only account I have knowledge of for an actual ban was a moron who instigated a chargeback for a yearly sub while he was 6 months in and due a 6 month refund.
Sucks to be him, but the ban was deserved.
This one? We only have the poster's word that they've actually been banned or that their posting activity was the reason.
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So far I'm inclined to believe that part of the problem lies in the guy just plain using too many exclamation points and other things like that. It might not be something that a human being decided to do at all, except in passing.
If it looks like a spammer according to the filter and it has an account? Probably a spammer most of the time.
It's just that this time the filter was wrong. And unfortunately with the game closing, there's no recourse.
Which is a tragic shame to the player if he didn't get his character data recorded with the Sentinel tool beforehand.
I'd just be a -little- bit careful about posting at the NCSoft facebook site because of that until after Nov 30th.
THEN we take the gloves off, of course.
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BTW, the free speech thing is only "the government can't tell me what not to say" (with some limitations). It doesn't say anyone else can't tell you what not to say when you're in their building, on their forums, at their party, on their facebook page, playing their game, talking to their child, etc. Way too many people think the free speech amendment applies much, MUCH farther than it actually does.
It's actually even a bit more restricted than this. Specifically, freedom of speech is the right to speak out against the actions of the government without fear of reprisal or retribution from the government for the expression of a political opinion. Basically, it is the right to disagree with your government, and to voice that disagreement, without having to fear being imprisoned or executed. As you point out, it has nothing to do with anything said in private exchanges or on private property, and does not even give the right to say anything and everything in public.
One of my pet peeves is people trying to apply "freedom of speech" to situations where it has absolutely no force or effect.
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It's actually even a bit more restricted than this. Specifically, freedom of speech is the right to speak out against the actions of the government without fear of reprisal or retribution from the government for the expression of a political opinion. Basically, it is the right to disagree with your government, and to voice that disagreement, without having to fear being imprisoned or executed. As you point out, it has nothing to do with anything said in private exchanges or on private property, and does not even give the right to say anything and everything in public.
One of my pet peeves is people trying to apply "freedom of speech" to situations where it has absolutely no force or effect.
Ah yes, the commonly applied "It's a free country!" argument.
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A lot of Americans think that American freedom of speech applies to the internet as well, even to internet sites hosted in countries other than the U.S.
The restrictions about what you cannot say against the U.S. government are actually pretty specific - you can't advocate the commission of a crime with the intent that somebody actually do it or that somebody is likely to act on it and do it. So, for example, if I were to say "somebody murder Taek Jin Kim", that would probably be criminal (it's not here because it's in quotes, since I'm not actually advocating it). However, I could say "let's lobby the U.S. government to nuke Seoul," because lobbying the U.S. government is legal, and if the U.S. government were to to give the order to the military to nuke Seoul, that would also be legal (under American law - it would violate so-called international law, but that doesn't apply in the U.S. without the U.S. agreeing to it, which it hasn't).
I'm not advocating nuking Seoul either, by the way. That would hurt our kibun (besides, probably a lot of people would hesitate to play CoH even if we got up and running again if the price for making that happen included millions of people's lives. CoV on the other hand... well, that depends on whether CoV players are really villainous or if they're just pretending to be. ;)).
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Of course, the deaths of millions of innocents would be... Wasteful. A criminal mastermind would look for a more - surgical solution.
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..."will no-one rid me of this troublesome priest?"
Or perhaps a bit less obscure...
Bluto: What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: [to Boon] Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard of something to say]
Bluto: The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[Bluto runs out, alone; then returns]
Bluto: What the f--- happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...
Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!
Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.
D-Day: [stands up] Yeah, I agree. Let's go get 'em.
Boon: Let's do it.
Bluto: [shouting] "Let's do it"!
[all of the Deltas stand up and run out with Bluto]
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Of course, the deaths of millions of innocents would be... Wasteful. A criminal mastermind would look for a more - surgical solution.
Like just the power supply to the server grid of a specific building?
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Oh, no. The power should stay on. We're going to need corn syrup, cooking oil, mothballs, about a dozen empty toilet paper tubes, and det cord. Also, half a dozen burner phones and a stripper. Anyone know a good papers guy? Mine is in for wire fraud, and my passport expired last year. :)
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Like just the power supply to the server grid of a specific building?
Inside this building there's a level where no elevator can go, and no stair can reach. This level is filled with doors. These doors lead to many places, hidden places, but one door is special. One door leads to the Source. This building is protected by a very secure system...