Author Topic: Legal Considerations and Challenges  (Read 50833 times)

Olantern

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2012, 04:51:34 PM »
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that I had a cousin who was high up in the legal department of a major corporation in Detroit. How would I intelligently phrase a question to this hypothetical relative as to what our best options would be, completely throwing out the option of me saying, "Hey, Cousin, can you read this forum thread and give me your opinion?"

Based on this thread and a couple of posts over in Sunset, I know what it is that we're trying to figure out, but how would I phrase an intelligent question to a lawyer who is, you can well imagine, very busy?

Good question.  The following points apply to getting legal advice in any situation, really.

First, lawyers like it when clients have recognizable goals.  That doesn't have to be something legalistic, like "form an S-Corp."  Rather, it's a goal in the sense of, "We want to save CoH."  Make that clear right up front.  You also need to explain what you're seeking advice on- forming some kind of business entity to attempt to buy and hold the rights to CoH or develop a spiritual successor to it.

Second, you need to provide some factual background.  This may take a while, particularly for someone who doesn't know much about MMO's!  The attorney needs to know what's happening so far to accomplish your goals in non-law ways (like the letter-writing campaigns to NCSoft, etc.).  All of this is necessary so the lawyer can help you develop a plan of action going forward, whether that means doing what you came in to ask advice about or not.  In particular, you need to educate the lawyer about the business you're thinking of going into (here, MMO publishing and possibly development).  That will help the lawyer with things like figuring out how distributed or concentrated you might want authority to be.

For a tl; dr summary, you have to tell your cousin what the situation is (which may take a while), then say players are considering a player-owned publisher (and developer, should this turn into a Plan Z rather than a save CoH situation), make it clear that it may be difficult or impossible for players to get their hands on the IP rights involved (that step's critical; it isn't like NCSoft is eager to sell to a bunch of people it's never heard of), and then ask what kind of business entity might be best for what the players are trying to do, along with the obligations that entity would have meet to get formed.

The last few posts have included some discussion on that point.  I hadn't even considered things like SEC registration and the like (which is embarrassing, since my best friend from law school is married to an SEC attorney), but yes, all those things would be issues in a C (regular) Corporation.

By the way, while it isn't strictly a legal issue, I recommend checking out Ms. Lackey's most recent post in the "news?" thread, which has a quote from Paragon Studios (ex-)manager Brian Clayton explaining that negotiations are still ongoing.  I point this out because it's important to remember that player ownership and player entities are the backup, not even the second line of defense.  If "get NCSoft to keep the game going" is Plan A, "get NCSoft to sell it to another publisher" is Plan B, and "a new MMO made by ex-CoH players" is Plan Z, a player entity buying the publishing rights to existing CoH is no closer to the beginning than Plan E or so.

Before people go bouncing off and forming a new entity, though, I urge some thought about where the $10-12 million the entity would use to purchase the IP rights involved is going to come from.  I enjoy the Plan Z discussion as much as anyone, but that's something of a separate issue.

DrDarkspeed

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2012, 02:42:19 AM »
In terms of acquiring the IP, its possible that a non-profit organisation may have an advantage, as NCSoft could in theory just donate them and take the fair market price for them as a tax deduction. That may be attractive to them, as it may be worth more than they could actually realisticly sell them for.   Is it possible that a literary organisation dedicated to the preservation and proliferation of the body of work (both initally contained in the IP and in the unique community based colabarative work that is the Mission Architect) could be legally created? Such an organisation could take donations (including subscriptions like other such organisations do) and use them to pay other companies (hosting, development, advertising) to provide services which meet their stated goal?

Kheprera

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2012, 03:27:39 AM »
In terms of acquiring the IP, its possible that a non-profit organisation may have an advantage, as NCSoft could in theory just donate them and take the fair market price for them as a tax deduction. That may be attractive to them, as it may be worth more than they could actually realisticly sell them for.   Is it possible that a literary organisation dedicated to the preservation and proliferation of the body of work (both initally contained in the IP and in the unique community based colabarative work that is the Mission Architect) could be legally created? Such an organisation could take donations (including subscriptions like other such organisations do) and use them to pay other companies (hosting, development, advertising) to provide services which meet their stated goal?

Not necessarily.  NCSoft is a foreign-based corporation.  How much anyone can write off as a tax deduction is limited, and for a Korea-based corporation, even less.  I have zero knowledge of Korean tax law and very, very limited knowledge on international tax law, but as far as I know they would not be able to take the full amount of the Fair Market Value as a deduction.

The rules and regulations the IRS has for creating non-profit organizations has been tightened in recent years.  Since in reality any re-iteration of CoX should turn some sort of net gain just to maintain servers (and future upgrades/replacement as needed) and pay whatever staff is on hand (especially if there will be continued development of the game), then I seriously doubt non-profit is the way to go with this venture.

IANAL.  My familiarity with the tax law comes from my personal experience in writing training manuals for IRS employees (which does, strangely, give me a chance to see many aspects of the process). But even common sense should rule that a game company is not a non-profit from a normal perspective.

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2012, 03:44:51 AM »
Olantern, it sounds like the first and second points are more questions to put to Tony and his formal team, and they're doing more immediately productive things, as well as trying to drive a herd of cats (us) through the wilderness.  I'll cull through the various threads to see if I can distill some kind of answer to those, get something coherent written up, and throw it in the inbox of one of the formal team members for approval before I send anything off.  It's purely hypothetical, both in the line of question that I want to ask, and in whether this cousin really does what I hope she does.  I know what company she works for, and that she's not at all low in the food chain, but whether she deals with the kind of stuff that would answer some of the questions we have as far as a potential direction is uncertain.

I also have another cousin just out of GWU who does practice corporate law, but I don't know if he would be any more knowledgeable than any of you other lawyers, because he's still green and just starting out in a firm.  He may do more than get coffee and fetch files...  :)

Point being, no one's shooting off anywhere, but it occurred to me that I might actually have a line on filling in some of the gaps. Like I said somewhere else, some people just need to feel like they're DOING something, even if it means research.
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DrDarkspeed

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2012, 04:16:23 AM »
Yeah, it might not be possible. Its just one, crazy, potential way that NCSoft might end up with more money by giving it away than we could possibly raise in a lump sum to buy it. I'd guess we could maybe raise $1-2 million with direct donations/kickstarter. If NCSoft could write off more tax than that by giving it away, then its at least an option.  The nature of NCSoft as an international comapny does indeed complicate things. On the other hand, it also means that there is no particular reason why any such organisation need be US based, so even if the IRS says no, the USA could, potentially at least, be entirely sidestepped.

And the entity that got the rights wouldn't be a game company. They would employ one to develop/maintain a game that helped achieve their goal. Like an educational charity getting a developer to make an educational game. Or a museum using their donations to pay to have exhibits built. No profits, all incoming money is spent on achieving the mission of the organisation.

In reality, it is almost certain that the first money raised by anyone would have to be spent on actual lawyers with expertise in these areas.

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2012, 04:21:27 AM »
In terms of acquiring the IP, its possible that a non-profit organisation may have an advantage, as NCSoft could in theory just donate them and take the fair market price for them as a tax deduction. That may be attractive to them, as it may be worth more than they could actually realisticly sell them for.   Is it possible that a literary organisation dedicated to the preservation and proliferation of the body of work (both initally contained in the IP and in the unique community based colabarative work that is the Mission Architect) could be legally created? Such an organisation could take donations (including subscriptions like other such organisations do) and use them to pay other companies (hosting, development, advertising) to provide services which meet their stated goal?

It's something worth researching, especially since the COH community does so much charitable work in general. There would certainly need to be an option to maintain a reserve for server improvements, hiring more staff, and other such expenses, but theoretically it COULD be set up so that any *profits* beyond expenses plus future foreseen expenses are turned towards charitable purposes.

Given that the majority of us are US-based, I think it would be fairly difficult to justify forming an non-US corporation. And I'm rather loathe to do that except in a worst-case scenario. Obviously, if it's the only way to get the rights to COH, then of course we should look into it.
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Olantern

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2012, 11:14:53 PM »
Olantern, it sounds like the first and second points are more questions to put to Tony and his formal team, and they're doing more immediately productive things, as well as trying to drive a herd of cats (us) through the wilderness.  I'll cull through the various threads to see if I can distill some kind of answer to those, get something coherent written up, and throw it in the inbox of one of the formal team members for approval before I send anything off.

Please have them contact me as well with whatever they come up with.  I very nearly contacted a colleague who does community development (helping people form entities, both regular and nonprofit) clinical work today.  This is the kind of person who can provide more conclusive advice on things like choice of entity and for-profit vs. non-profit, as well as some general startup issues.  But since I don't know what the plan is, I realized I wouldn't know what to ask him.  I have some contacts, but I'm not sure what the plan is, if there is one.

If there is some kind of Plan B being considered by folks here in Titan-land (aside from those of us just tossing ideas around in this thread) that might require legal advice, I'd like to know so that I can help get that information into the hands of people who can help.  (Especially, as I noted a few pages ago, if they're people who can help for free.)  If any administrators or organizers are reading this, please let me know, either in this thread if you think it appropriate or via PM or e-mail if you'd prefer it that way.

Olantern

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2012, 03:43:14 PM »
The Nuclear Option- Player Suits Against NCSoft?: Part One: A Very Brief Overview of Fraud

Recently, someone (probably a player with some business expertise) posted a “white paper” on NCSoft’s shutdown of CoH to a blog.  It summarizes many of the points that have been made in these fora about how bad a decision this was from a business standpoint.  If you haven't read it, I recommend taking a look at it.  It summarizes a lot of good points in pretty clear language.

But one paragraph got a lot of people excited.  It discussed the possibility of "fraud charges [sic] against NCSoft in the U.S. and U.K. courts."

Several posters here, including one very prominent and respected one, have expressed interest in the writer’s suggestion that players could institute a class action against NCSoft for fraud.

Before I go any further, let me state again, emphatically, this is not intended as legal advice.  If you really want to investigate the possibility of a lawsuit against anyone, consult an attorney of your choice, preferably in person.  I cannot stress this enough.  This post, and all my others on this forum, are not intended to tell you how to manage your legal affairs, nor are they intended as offers of representation.  The decision of whether to sue belongs to the client (that’s you, in this scenario), after consulting with a competent attorney.

In my view, while players probably could begin such a suit, it would not be a good idea, because it’s unlikely to be successful.  This is definitely a case where “could” is not the same as “should.”  The risks, costs, and challenges are probably greater than the potential rewards involved.  Most importantly in “bottom line” terms, this is not a route to get NCSoft to reinstate CoH or to obtain the IP rights to the game.

There are two broad areas of problems in any such suit against NCSoft: procedure and substance.  These terms get tossed around a lot in the law.  “Procedure” is the law of “how legal stuff is done.”  It deals with things like how and when lawsuits are filed, how motions work, how trials work, and the like.  “Substance” is the particular law at issue in any given case.  For instance, in a criminal case where someone is accused of robbing a bank, the relevant substantive law is the criminal law of bank robbery. 

Here, the procedural law is the law of civil procedure in the federal courts, and the substantive law is the law
of fraud.  This post deals with the substantive issues.

As I understand the problem, the argument is that players were defrauded by NCSoft because it misled them into believing CoH would not be shut down when it was.  So, is there fraud?  I'd say "probably not,” based on the evidence available to us at the moment.

Fraud, in most jurisdictions, requires five or six elements to be proved.  Think of the elements like a checklist.  If the plaintiff (the player, here) can’t prove them all, he loses.

First, there has to be a false representation.  Second, that representation has to relate to a material fact; it isn't fraud if someone lies about something unimportant.  Third, the defendant has to know the representation is false when he makes it.  Just doing something by mistake doesn't count.  Fourth, the representation has to be made with the intent to deceive.  Again, just a "mistake" isn't enough.  Fifth, the plaintiff has to have taken some action in reliance upon the representation.  Some jurisdictions also require a sixth element, that the plaintiff has suffered some kind of damage (usually, loss of money) due to the fraud.

Notice how several of those elements follow on from the first one.  If the plaintiff can’t show the defendant made a false representation, then the whole case suffers cascade failure like a scrapper under attack by Vanguard.

In most jurisdictions, all the elements have to be proved by "clear and convincing" evidence.  That's less than "beyond a reasonable doubt," but it's more than "a preponderance of the evidence" (i.e., a tiny scintilla more than 50%), which is the standard for most civil actions.  Proof by clear and convincing evidence isn’t an easy standard to meet.

Here, I think there are problems for the potential player-plaintiff with several of the elements.

First, I think NCSoft can believably argue that it didn't make a false representation.  A false representation doesn’t have to be an active lie; it can be an omission, as the plaintiff would argue in this case.  For instance, it can be fraud to sell someone a house with a cemetery in the basement without telling the buyer. 

But I’m not sure NCSoft made that kind of omission here.  It never told anyone "the game will last indefinitely" or even "the game will last three months."  It never even stated that players would be able to spend the Paragon Points they'd bought on anything.  Indeed, it stated in several different places that it reserved the right to discontinue services at any time.  The sole evidence for the alleged misrepresentation is that development and sales were ongoing until the announcement of the shutdown.  Personally, I don’t think that’s enough to constitute a misrepresentation.

I would argue (and you can bet NCSoft’s attorney would argue the same to a jury) that the situation here is more like that of a cleaning service or other subscription-based business that suddenly goes out of business.  If such a business shuts down, its customers are entitled to damages for the unfulfilled portion of their contracts (which NCSoft is paying here, as Aggelakis has pointed out in large letters in the thread that inspired this post).  But the service hasn’t defrauded the customers, no matter how suddenly it shuts down.
 
The first element is a major stumbling block because several of the other elements, like the fifth, rely on its being present.  No false representation, no action taken based on one, no knowing misrepresentation, etc.

But if the first element is satisfied, I think the second element is probably satisfied, too.  The fact at issue (how long the game will operate) is probably material.  However, a judge or jury not experienced with games might not agree with me.

The third element would be very difficult to prove.  There's simply no evidence that NCSoft knew when the players purchased their items that City of Heroes would be shut down.  What does it mean for an entity that isn't a single person to "know" something, anyway?  In my view, and I'm sure NCSoft would argue the same, it didn't "know" what its course of action with regard to CoH would be until it held a bunch of meetings and adopted a formal policy.  Discovery (a phase of litigation where the parties ask each other questions to look for evidence) might reveal otherwise, but to me, the circumstances suggest that it issued its press release almost immediately after it decided on the shutdown.

(Think how much this explains about how sudden the shutdown seemed.  If the shutdown hadn’t been that sudden, NCSoft might have been vulnerable to fraud claims for the reasons people have stated in other threads.  More importantly from its point of view, it would have been incurring new contract obligations, and thus new damages to be paid in the event of the breach it was planning, every day.  It also explains why Paragon Studios employees didn't know until the public did.)

As an aside, if someone did start a fraud case, this would be one area where the plaintiff would want to focus his discovery: what did NCSoft know and decide, and when did it know it?  (I'll talk more about discovery in a future post.)

The fourth element, intent to deceive, is nearly always the hardest to prove.  This case is no exception.  Even assuming that NCSoft "told" the players the game would remain in operation by continuing to sell CoH material, there's no evidence that it did so not only intending to shut down the game, but also intending to trick players into buying things.  In actual cases, intent to deceive is usually proved by evidence of things like secrecy or hurriedness of a transfer (in cases about defrauding creditors, which are the kind I know best).  In a "standard" fraud case like this one, discovery would focus on trying to get a hold of internal NCSoft memos and the like, the documents that led up to the decision to shut down.  When was the first discussion of a shutdown?  More importantly, when did NCSoft first start considering what to do about player purchases (subscription, Paragon Market, etc.)?  It's doubtful there's a smoking gun along the lines of a memo saying, "Let's just let them buy stuff, but not give it to them and never refund their money," but you never know.  It's going to be very difficult to find this kind of thing.  These sorts of intangibles rarely get written down.

Also, littering. ;)  (Just kidding.)

I should mention that this lack of evidence isn't just a problem at the trial stage of litigation.  Fraud has to be "pled with particularity."  That means that, when you file your complaint to start off the lawsuit, you can't just say, "I believe NCSoft intended to deceive me."  You have to allege some support for the proposition, along the lines of "I believe NCSoft intended to deceive me because of the following five things I expect to prove at trial."

I think the fifth element is probably satisfied, assuming the first one is.  Players did indeed buy CoH material.  If the player-plaintiff wins on the first element, he probably wins this one, too.  Again, if the first element isn't there, this one isn't, either.

The sixth element, damages, is a major problem.  If players are given refunds, then they haven't suffered monetary damages.  From everything I've read, NCSoft has done a fine job on its CYA work here.

Overall, I just don’t see a strong case for fraud.  But for those of you very committed to the idea of suing NCSoft, I urge you to consult a reputable attorney in real life.

Edited to complete a sentence, discuss more about intent to deceive, and include reference to littering.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 07:00:17 PM by Olantern »

Aggelakis

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2012, 05:15:29 PM »
The fourth element, intent to deceive, is nearly always the hardest to prove.  This case is no exception.  Even assuming that NCSoft "told" the players the game would remain in operation by continuing to sell CoH material, there's no evidence that it did so not only intending to shut down the game, but also intending to trick players into buying things.  In actual cases, intent to deceive is usually proved by evidence of things like
Things like?
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Codewalker

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2012, 05:32:09 PM »
Littering and...

DrakeGrimm

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2012, 05:49:25 PM »
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StarRanger4

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2012, 06:43:27 PM »
Littering and...

Oh, things like internal memos. 

Olantern

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2012, 07:05:07 PM »
Oh, things like internal memos.

Right.  I edited the original "fraud" post.  This kind of stuff is hard to come by.  People rarely write down things like "I plan to trick someone."  Heck, they rarely write down things about mental states (which is what the intent to deceive element really aims at) at all.

I guess the thing to take away from the discussion on evidence for fraud is that those elements are the law's way of saying, "Are you really, really sure this defendant tricked you?"  Because that's so subjective, courts have developed these elements (over centuries!), and they require a lot of proof from a plaintiff in order to win.

I'll try to make some time to write up something about civil litigation and class action issues this evening.  Got to go teach now.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2012, 07:08:48 PM »
Well nobody is intentionally getting tricked when a moron climbs over a fence, breaks their neck jumping into a private pool, and then sues the owner for failing to post a "no diving" sign. Both forms of negligence result in a lot of damages, financial or otherwise. And it's not just us, but PS as well.

Something that the legal world still needs to acknowledge though, is that playing an MMO isn't just going to a store and buying something on a shelf. It's a frigging investment. In some cases, as big an investment as a car or an apartment.

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2012, 07:19:56 PM »
Olantern, it sounds like the first and second points are more questions to put to Tony and his formal team...

*lost...

What are the first and second points again?  I'll try to address them directly if I can.  There are a lot of posts with a lot of points, and I'm not sure what this is referring to.

Olantern

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2012, 07:27:33 PM »
Well nobody is intentionally getting tricked when a moron climbs over a fence, breaks their neck jumping into a private pool, and then sues the owner for failing to post a "no diving" sign. Both forms of negligence result in a lot of damages, financial or otherwise. And it's not just us, but PS as well.

Right!  Just because someone didn't intentionally deceive you doesn't mean you didn't suffer harm.  It's just that the fact that no one intended to deceive means you can't get compensated for the harm you suffered by suing for fraud.  Maybe the harm you suffered isn't a kind the law recognizes.  Or maybe (and I think this is the case here), there are other forms of legal relief where you can recover your damages.  Contract law comes to mind.  As I've posted elsewhere, if NCSoft doesn't compensate you for what you've bought from it, such as a prepaid subscription, it's breached its contract with you, and you get damages for that.  (NCSoft knows you'd win a case like this, which is why they're making refunds.)

Something that the legal world still needs to acknowledge though, is that playing an MMO isn't just going to a store and buying something on a shelf. It's a frigging investment. In some cases, as big an investment as a car or an apartment.

This is an interesting point.  I'm more inclined to suggest that being allowed to play an MMO grants you certain kinds of property rights that you don't get from buying a physical good off a shelf.  In some ways, you get less.  Your use of game code is limited by things like EULA's, which normally aren't an issue in buying a lamp off the shelf.  In other ways, you get more.  I think there could be an argument that you get certain IP rights, like the right to create some kinds of derivative works (i.e., your characters), which you don't get by buying an item off a shelf.  To my knowledge, MMO providers haven't even considered this concept.  At least, not in the way I just stated it.

These are complex, abstract concepts that haven't even been thought about by practicing lawyers and judges, to my knowledge.  But they might give hints as to where the law could go over the next twenty years.  (Not that this helps us much with keeping CoH alive.)

I want to find some time this week to contact a colleague, a professor who's written a lot about IP law as it relates to fan fiction and the like, as well as what IP law means in popular discourse.  (I saw her speak a couple years back at a panel on "Comic Art and the Law"; interesting discussion- post here if you want to hear about it in more detail.)  I wouldn't expect some legal revelation or mainstream media coverage out of it.  (Academic legal writing is even more "niche" than gaming journalism, if you can believe it.)  But at least it'd be a chance for Save CoH's efforts to contribute to the evolution of the law in the future.

dwturducken

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2012, 07:34:57 PM »
*lost...

What are the first and second points again?  I'll try to address them directly if I can.  There are a lot of posts with a lot of points, and I'm not sure what this is referring to.
I think 24 hours or more elapsed between my post and his reply. Yes, the more I look at the depth of field involved in trying to find a cohesive vision here to try to formulate intelligent questions is beyond my ability within the amount of time I am able to devote to it (I have classes, work, and a project that I promised to deliver by end of this month, plus all that annoying parenting :)).

It may be that just briefly lay out Plans to my two cousins (one a high ranking exec in the legal department of a major corp, and the other just out of school and working corporate law at a firm in St Louis) and direct which ever one doesn't ROFL to this thread and Olantern
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Segev

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2012, 07:49:26 PM »
I just saw this post on the front page and read the two opening ones, and wanted to say: thank you. This is all very well-thought-out.

While I am one of those who is in favor of hastening the "gather some money - or at least pledges thereof" movement, I agree that, if anything resembling a reasonable amount starts to accumulate, we will have to swiftly incorporate - and yes, I do believe a corporation is the right way to go.

I will look forward to reading more of this thread as I have time (I'm at work right now, so can't spend too much even while waiting for a simulation to finish).

But one thing I want to reinforce from your second post: This has to be a business when it's completed. It may not need to be a gigantic money-making operation on the par that NCSoft wanted it to be (and apparently found it wasn't), but it needs to make a profit, if only to pay all its hard-working employees, maintain the servers, develop new content, etc. Money makes the world go 'round.

Given what I understand of the situation, my initial goal in running this thing would be to continue operations more-or-less as-is, just to see what the profit margins are and to see that it CAN maintain itself. The goal is the continuance of this game, at least on the part of the crowd-source donors. It would be grossly unfair to change things out from under them on short notice. That said, efforts to improve its profitability are not to be avoided; it has to make money in order for it to survive.

So: we want to initially keep it going as-is, but acknowledge that some work in pricing structures or marketing schema may need to be done. Stagnation is death; innovation is risky; but risk is life.

Anyway, I think we should seriously consider who wants to be "in" on forming this corporate entity to make this a credible offer. I obviously do; I have not played the game in years, but I sense a genuine opportunity to keep something people love going and perhaps make a small profit. And it IS the ONLY MMO I have played for more than a few levels, ever.

But good intentions pave hell; wisdom and hard work build the towers of heaven (if you'll forgive the florid phraseology). So, thanks again to the OP for his legal insights. We can do this, people. At the very very least, we can get to a point where we will be able to have genuine business discussions with representatives of NCSoft.

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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2012, 08:16:13 PM »
Again, I don't want to crush hopes and aspirations here but "Hey look, we can raise $1000 in 45 minutes" does NOT translate into "Hey we can raise TEN MILLION DOLLARS."

That's the kind of ballpark money you are looking at to acquire the IP, Code, Servers and a REDUCED staff of former Paragon employees.

I think just to acquire the IP and Code from them will take AT LEAST a million.  That would require 100,000 of us to put in $1000 each.  We don't have 100,000 of us, right now we have...3,000 and some change.  And a goodly percentage of those 3,000 don't have $1000 to spare.  More like $100 or $10 or $1.

Just laying out some simple numbers for you.  Now if any of you actually know a venture capitalist with $10 million to invest, all bets are off.
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Re: Legal Considerations and Challenges
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2012, 08:19:29 PM »
Your math is a little off. $1,000,000 (1 million dollars) is one thousand $1,000, not one thousand $100,000.

It would take 1000 people contributing $1000 each. It would take $10,000 contributing $100 each.

That's to raise a million, though. Which is a good starting point.

If you've got figures to back your estimates of $1 million for "just the code" and $10 million for "the whole thing plus a reduced staff," I'd be interested in hearing them. Because they sound suspiciously close to my "bare guess" figures, and I don't trust those. I am looking for more solid figures.