Ko's Twitter 'Rant' About #COH, #SaveCOH, and What the Community is Becoming...

[Megajoule]

*coughs politely*

Actually, I think you'll find that phrase actually means "nobles (and others in power) shouldn't act like complete ****s just because they can."  They are "obligated" to display a certain amount of decorum, even toward their subjects, to go along with their station.  If you want to call yourself better, you should act like it.

Which ties back into what a lot of people are angry about - they feel that NCsoft has not followed through on its implied obligations to its customers, only those strictly required by contract and business.  (I'd submit that most of those are purely in the minds of those betrayed, and NCsoft actually owes us nothing, and vice versa... but that's another topic.)

[Arcana]

Because if we all adopt an "oh let it flow, this too shall pass, let us all contemplate the center of the universe and forget all this" attitude, the problems for NCSoft go away and they get to pretend nothing ever happened. And that is what they want: for this problem [that THEY started] and its perpetrators - us - to go to a galaxy far, far away.

I think the only "destruction" most people want is the destruction of NCSoft. NCSoft has THEMSELVES to blame for this, as it is their actions that have begun this [fecal matter]-storm, and not people "deciding" or "choosing" to become an army of rage-bots or whatever.

Do you truly have that much control over your emotions, as in you sit around and consider what your emotional response to any given happening will be, and then you make sure its a positive one? I sure dont, my emotions do not wait for the decision of a mental committee before they kick in.

If we forgive, NCSoft completely gets away with what they did to us with no negative outcome for them. That does not sit well with me. They can EARN my forgiveness.

They do not want, nor have any opinion at all about your forgiveness.  However, there is no negative outcome to NCSoft when members of the community project the appearance of raving lunatics in public.  At best that has no effect.  At worst, it helps to marginalize the CoH player community in a way that makes it easier for NCSoft.

In every narrative there has to be a good guy and a bad guy.  For most of the gaming community, the good guy will tend to be the players rather than the game publisher.  However, if you make yourself a bad guy, that automatically makes NCSoft the good guy.  That is not a matter of debate.  That is a fact of life you have to decide to account for or ignore when deciding the degree to which you are compelled to voice your hatred of NCSoft in venues where that is not the topic of discussion.

The most negative consequence we can possible generate for NCSoft would be to actually stick together and launch an actual game that then becomes successful (for some definition of successful) and use that success as a priori proof NCSoft erred in shutting down the game.  This would be proof the community was worth saving and the game was worth saving, and NCSoft was clearly inadequate to the task.  We have no power over NCSoft whatsoever at this point, and pretending we do is like pretending if we splash hard enough we can stop the tide from coming in.  What we need is ammunition.  A long-term independent community and a successful launch of a spiritual successor would provide that ammunition.

Without it, we're firing squirt guns in the faces of people on the train while screaming NCSoft's name.  There is exactly zero chance any of those people will blame NCSoft for that.  In a just world perhaps you'd shout to the world the improprieties of NCSoft and the whole world would rally to your side.  We don't live in that world.  You can't make NCSoft suffer and you can't get them to ask for your forgiveness.  The only thing you can do - MAYBE - is make them regret their decision.  And there exists only one way for that to happen: they have to see, entirely on their own, that the value of what they gave up is higher than they wanted to give up.  And the only way to do that is to make it overwhelmingly more valuable.  And the only way to contribute to that is to keep the community alive and vibrant, and support the efforts of the people trying to create a spiritual successor game.

It won't kill NCSoft.  But it will sting. 

[Arcana]

Actually, I think you'll find that phrase actually means "nobles (and others in power) shouldn't act like complete ****s just because they can."  They are "obligated" to display a certain amount of decorum, even toward their subjects, to go along with their station.  If you want to call yourself better, you should act like it.

Basically.  Nobless Oblige was my high school motto.  It was synonymized with the biblical quote: "to whom much is given much is expected" although that's not absolutely precise.  Its closest historical meaning is your last sentence: a claim of nobility should be backed up with acts of nobility.  If you presume power and position imply the claim of higher station, then its pretty close to the biblical quote.

[Megajoule]

Basically.  Nobless Oblige was my high school motto.  It was synonymized with the biblical quote: "to whom much is given much is expected" although that's not absolutely precise.  Its closest historical meaning is your last sentence: a claim of nobility should be backed up with acts of nobility.  If you presume power and position imply the claim of higher station, then its pretty close to the biblical quote.

or to put it yet another way, "with great power comes great responsibility."

[Twisted Toon]

Yeah I can relate but I'm still trying to figure out a little bit more about the human psyche. It's a like a math equation where 2+2 can equal anything from 1 to 9687 trillion. :p Stick 1,000 with a pin you'd get different reactions some may be the same but all reactions wont be the same even though the pin and the act of sticking is constant. Hell, stick a person more than once and within that one person their reaction may be different with each prick, one time they may jerk a little to the left, the next they may jerk a little to the right.

Not to mention sometimes I can be a little blunt, too blunt for my own good in some cases but definately (hopefully) not as ruthlessly blunt as I seen some people be without regards to the human emotion and while it works for some people it probably dont work for all and havent yet figured out to accurately read which methods works best. Sometimes people need the blunt truth, sometimes they just need words of encouragement, and sometimes they just need a hug literal or proverbial to show them that someone still care about their feelings and thoughts and value their contributions. And sometimes in text I cant tell which of those is appropriate.

But people in real life do share alot of stuff about what is bothering them, everyone from friends to complete strangers with topics that range from finance relationships to losing a pet or addiction or "rust on the tools." Many occassion a five minute trip to the gas station turned into a 1-2 hour trip because some random guy come up to me talking about a problem in life he has and how he/she is trying to deal with it. It seems that most of the time people just want someone to listen to them. To vent a little bit. And I guess I have that approachable look. And for many even the poor and homeless I can relate to them. I had times in the past that I wondered what is next, but I also conqoured my problems. Do I still get invaded by problems sometimes of the ones I already defeated? Yep, I'm only human but each time they are easier to beat. Thus all I can share is what I did to get to that point and past that obstacle, big or small, it's still an obstacle nonetheless and share a method that worked for me. It may not work for them as well or may work better for them but hopefully it gives them a starting point on the path that wish to be on.

What you give, and what most people need, is hope. You have been through very tough situations and came out on top. That gives them hope that they, too, can make it through their situations as well. And having been through those tough situations, they feel that you actually do understand what they're going through. Even if it's not exactly the same situation they are going through.

For what it's worth, I'm glad you're there to be a sympathetic ear for those strangers to talk to. You've probably helped them more than you know.

[Taceus Jiwede]

have either of you thought about counseling? With your first hand life experiences, I'm sure you would be able to relate to those with issues that need help much easier than someone like me. Not that I'm a councilor. My most recent field was Security. And my B.S. is in I.T. I've also heard all the jokes about that too.

I have thought about it actually.  I love to help people and I hate when people are struggling and my ultimate goal is to make people feel as comfortable as possible around me.  I am on the same page as JaguarX though.  I could give people solutions to my problems.  But most the time I have noticed the only person who can help some one is them self.  In the end I decided to be a musician, always been my dream and I figured I wouldn't waste my second chance.  I also tend to lose clarity too and lose my temper like I did earlier in the post, and as a counselor you are there to help them.  The strange thing is strangers tend to open up to me WAY more then they should lol.  A few weeks ago, I won't get too into to it, but a gas station clerk I have never met before was talking about her dog(I was buying a cheapo stuffed animal for my dog to destroy) and it went from talking about how great dogs are to something WAY crazier and WAY darker (No, not that).  I just stood there dumbfounded at such a huge bombshell that some people don't even tell their spouses.

I teach music though and in a way I am giving people something that they can use to change their life.  To quote E-Dubble "I keep my faith, not religion, but music.  It has given me the oppurtunity to put 100% into something that is true to me"  Basically sums up how I feel about music.  If I can pass that on to at least one other person.  Its all worth it.

Sorry a bit off the OP.

[Arcana]

And my B.S. is in I.T.

A lot of people's BS is in IT.

I've also heard all the jokes about that too. 

Darn.

[Cobra Man]

I have thought about it actually.  I love to help people and I hate when people are struggling and my ultimate goal is to make people feel as comfortable as possible around me.  I am on the same page as JaguarX though.  I could give people solutions to my problems.  But most the time I have noticed the only person who can help some one is them self.  In the end I decided to be a musician, always been my dream and I figured I wouldn't waste my second chance.  I also tend to lose clarity too and lose my temper like I did earlier in the post, and as a counselor you are there to help them.  The strange thing is strangers tend to open up to me WAY more then they should lol.  A few weeks ago, I won't get too into to it, but a gas station clerk I have never met before was talking about her dog(I was buying a cheapo stuffed animal for my dog to destroy) and it went from talking about how great dogs are to something WAY crazier and WAY darker (No, not that).  I just stood there dumbfounded at such a huge bombshell that some people don't even tell their spouses.

I teach music though and in a way I am giving people something that they can use to change their life.  To quote E-Dubble "I keep my faith, not religion, but music.  It has given me the oppurtunity to put 100% into something that is true to me"  Basically sums up how I feel about music.  If I can pass that on to at least one other person.  Its all worth it.

Sorry a bit off the OP.

Nice one.

I'm a musician as well first and foremost - guitar for the most part.

It helps me focus on the good and the bad - and be creative all at the same time

[Twisted Toon]

I have thought about it actually.  I love to help people and I hate when people are struggling and my ultimate goal is to make people feel as comfortable as possible around me.  I am on the same page as JaguarX though.  I could give people solutions to my problems.  But most the time I have noticed the only person who can help some one is them self.  In the end I decided to be a musician, always been my dream and I figured I wouldn't waste my second chance.  I also tend to lose clarity too and lose my temper like I did earlier in the post, and as a counselor you are there to help them.  The strange thing is strangers tend to open up to me WAY more then they should lol.  A few weeks ago, I won't get too into to it, but a gas station clerk I have never met before was talking about her dog(I was buying a cheapo stuffed animal for my dog to destroy) and it went from talking about how great dogs are to something WAY crazier and WAY darker (No, not that).  I just stood there dumbfounded at such a huge bombshell that some people don't even tell their spouses.

I teach music though and in a way I am giving people something that they can use to change their life.  To quote E-Dubble "I keep my faith, not religion, but music.  It has given me the oppurtunity to put 100% into something that is true to me"  Basically sums up how I feel about music.  If I can pass that on to at least one other person.  Its all worth it.

Sorry a bit off the OP.

Music can be very therapeutic.

I think, and this is just my opinion, I think the reason that some strangers share so much with you is because they pick up two things from your body language. You're a caring individual, and you've been through situations that were very rough. Every experience we have, whether it is good or bad, will leave a mark. Others that are going through similar situations will be more apt to notice those tell-tale signs.

Now, as for the only person that is able to help someone is them-self, you are correct. However, by letting them know how you overcame your situation, you're giving them a starting point to overcome their own situation. Sometimes, all they need is a starting point. Then they can make a plan that will work for their own situation. Then, sometimes, all they need is to hear themselves talk about their situation and they'll find their own starting point. The important part of all of this is that you're there to listen.

"Pain shared is pain halved" - Some guy (or girl) I don't know.

A lot of people's BS is in IT.
Darn.

I knew you'd come through for me.
I actually used the whole BS IT thing in a presentation I gave in college once.
"I may not actually know a lot about Information Technology. But with a Bachelors of Science degree, I could BS IT as well as anyone."

Funny thing is, I really don't like speaking in-front of crowds. I can hide it well, though.
I prefer working in support doing the power points and putting the papers together to make everything flow smoothly.
In fact, I did that for my last year of college. But, I still had to get up in front of the class and participate in the presentation.
A lot of the time, it was to introduce the group, the subject, and conclude the presentation. The rest of the group gave the meat and potatoes of the presentation.

The worst (for me) presentation I gave was also the best graded presentation in the class. Instead of the 4 members of the group standing up in the front of the class pointing things out on a power point slide show, we held a mock town hall meeting. I was the "official" for the meeting, so I was the one everyone was looking at most of the time. the rest of the group got to sit with the rest of the class and only spoke when their part of the presentation on renewable resources came up. It was highly entertaining for the class, and perked everyone's interest because it was different. Which, I think, was part of the reason for the high marks we got for the presentation from the teacher.

Even after three and a half year of presentations, I till hate "public speaking".

Look at me sharing uninteresting facts about my past.

I think I'll go play SW:TOR now.

[JaguarX]

Nice one.

I'm a musician as well first and foremost - guitar for the most part.

It helps me focus on the good and the bad - and be creative all at the same time

One day I'm going to buy a good guitar, after I get this house, and learn how to play.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Nice one.

I'm a musician as well first and foremost - guitar for the most part.

It helps me focus on the good and the bad - and be creative all at the same time

Nice.  Guitar is my main instrument as well.

One day I'm going to buy a good guitar, after I get this house, and learn how to play.

I recommend everyone at least try to learn an instrument in their life time.  Its not for everyone but anyone could do it if that makes sense.  Its getting good that is the hard part

But it can add a lot clarity in your life.  Mind and body have to meet together at the same time, its really quite zen.  After a period of frustration.

There is a lot of things in the world that wouldn't make sense to me even in a million years.  But music, that makes perfect sense to me.  So I try to encourage others to give it a try.

[eabrace]

I recommend everyone at least try to learn an instrument in their life time.  Its not for everyone but anyone could do it if that makes sense.  Its getting good that is the hard part

One of these days I'm actually going to pick up that bass guitar I have sitting in my basement and learn how to play it.  Reading and playing music I can do just fine, but it's a matter of the mechanics of getting fingers to do what they need to do to get the right notes.

It's been a few years since I've gotten in out of the case, but my tuba is sitting there next to the guitar.  That I played for about 15 years straight (after a year or two of trombone).  I should pull that out and get some air moving through it again some time.  Might be interesting to see what my dog thinks of that.

[Illusionss]

But going off half-cocked, spewing hatred and vitriol over EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE that you can find that is even REMOTELY related to games, NCsoft, City, having fun, etc.... THAT IS RIDICULOUS AND UNNECESSARY.

I have never done this and never would do it, finding it counterproductive for several reasons. Every time someone posts in a negative fashion about NCSoft this comes up - and it should be directed at the people actually causing the problem, most of which I am willing to bet are not here on Titan. Probably none of them are.

Because some people behave like this, does not mean all of us do.

People here are actually pretty sane. Aliens: Colonial Marines launched about a week ago, and this was a very buggy [pardon the pun], unfinished game that ended up being launched instead of something comparable to the marvelous demos posted to YouTube. The invective being hurled about - even by people who have never even played it! - is simply beyond belief. BEYOND BELIEF. Think this is bad? You ain't seen nothing yet.

People are pretty serious about their games. I know I am. With that said, Even with all its bugs and crap like freezing you in place in a doorway so you can get jumped by two xenomorphs at once - insta-death! - A: CM is still preferable to GW2 and that, my friend, is saying something. This is what will eventually bring NCSoft down.

[Mistress Urd]

They do not want, nor have any opinion at all about your forgiveness.  However, there is no negative outcome to NCSoft when members of the community project the appearance of raving lunatics in public.  At best that has no effect.  At worst, it helps to marginalize the CoH player community in a way that makes it easier for NCSoft.

In every narrative there has to be a good guy and a bad guy.  For most of the gaming community, the good guy will tend to be the players rather than the game publisher.  However, if you make yourself a bad guy, that automatically makes NCSoft the good guy.  That is not a matter of debate.  That is a fact of life you have to decide to account for or ignore when deciding the degree to which you are compelled to voice your hatred of NCSoft in venues where that is not the topic of discussion.

The most negative consequence we can possible generate for NCSoft would be to actually stick together and launch an actual game that then becomes successful (for some definition of successful) and use that success as a priori proof NCSoft erred in shutting down the game.  This would be proof the community was worth saving and the game was worth saving, and NCSoft was clearly inadequate to the task.  We have no power over NCSoft whatsoever at this point, and pretending we do is like pretending if we splash hard enough we can stop the tide from coming in.  What we need is ammunition.  A long-term independent community and a successful launch of a spiritual successor would provide that ammunition.

Without it, we're firing squirt guns in the faces of people on the train while screaming NCSoft's name.  There is exactly zero chance any of those people will blame NCSoft for that.  In a just world perhaps you'd shout to the world the improprieties of NCSoft and the whole world would rally to your side.  We don't live in that world.  You can't make NCSoft suffer and you can't get them to ask for your forgiveness.  The only thing you can do - MAYBE - is make them regret their decision.  And there exists only one way for that to happen: they have to see, entirely on their own, that the value of what they gave up is higher than they wanted to give up.  And the only way to do that is to make it overwhelmingly more valuable.  And the only way to contribute to that is to keep the community alive and vibrant, and support the efforts of the people trying to create a spiritual successor game.

It won't kill NCSoft.  But it will sting.

It would be really good if one of the plan Z games does well not only here but in S Korea.

[Twisted Toon]

Nice.  Guitar is my main instrument as well.

I recommend everyone at least try to learn an instrument in their life time.  Its not for everyone but anyone could do it if that makes sense.  Its getting good that is the hard part

But it can add a lot clarity in your life.  Mind and body have to meet together at the same time, its really quite zen.  After a period of frustration.

There is a lot of things in the world that wouldn't make sense to me even in a million years.  But music, that makes perfect sense to me.  So I try to encourage others to give it a try.

I played the viola in the 4th grade. Then I picked u the trumpet.
I don't really like concert band. Although reading sheet music can be a bit of a challenge for me (I play by ear), concert band isn't very engaging for me.
Marching band, on the other hand, was the most fun I had playing music while I was in school.

Interestingly enough, I had similar moments while participating in mock medieval combat with a group called Melee in Oklahoma.

[Osborn]

Very fair point Tony V. That is why I wish for those companies to go their own direction or have at the very least a buyout like Arenanet does.  I don't want those companies to under go hardships and I want them as far away from NCSoft as possible, not shutdown or to fail for their associations I just want people to take that approach instead of "They work with NCSoft let them burn."
 Again, fair point. I can see how it would come off that way.  I still have hope for CoH, I still want to fight and I really do think NCSoft should acknowledge their mistakes and learn from it.  I would love game companies to stop pushing around their customers as well.  I just want to make sure we don't become the monsters we are fighting, and I don't want us to stoop to their level.

When you protest something, or boycott it or whatever... nobody like wants people to lose their jobs. Heck, most of us don't even want the guys at the top to be miserable. But that doesn't mean that a business or politician or whatever should be able to throw up their janitorial staff as a minimal wage human shield that allows them to do whatever it is they want to do to you.

You say you spent time in prison over what you claim was a pretty bad wrap. But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?

Probably not. At some point your own needs have to be considered too.

I would like to see NCSoft pay for what they have done, I would.  But I just cant help but think of all the people who would be getting hurt so much more then the people who actually were behind the CoH shutdown.  I am thinking of the mail room people, the receptionist, the interns etc etc.

Again, I would be to presume that your $20,000 lawyer and the justice department that screwed you hires plenty of clerks, mail room people, receptionists, interns etc, that would probably be out of work in a perfect system that makes no mistakes too. But it still didn't seem like a great deal for you.

I hope our efforts here do change the way publishers think they can treat people.  I just don't want people being caught in the crossfire who literally didn't do anything but have a bad employer.

At the end of the day, especially with how modern companies are set up to distance themselves from their customers personally, the only way to 'change' how they think they they can treat people are through either changing where our money as their customers goes, or changing the rules of business legally (or through violence, but I don't think anybody here would argue that's remotely appropriate).

You want our efforts to do one thing, and give us no way to do it. Positive and negative publicity only matters to them insofar as it's a gateway to new sales.

If we are going to be the community that tries and change the way publishers and gaming companies act.  Then we need to lead by example.

How would you figure we would change the way they act? If we lead by example and got, let's optimistically say 100% of all gaming customers on Earth to do what we wanted by our example... what exactly would we do with them.
 

Gaming companies learn they can't treat their customers/fans this way, and also that there isn't a bunch of collateral damage.

Except if we continue to buy as if nothing happened, and in the same confidence we had before CoH was closed as if nothing happened, they don't learn that. They actually learn the opposite. They learn that as long as either we're apathetic enough to accept anything then they can do whatever they want.

Good customer service isn't something companies do because they like you. It's something they do because they want you to be their customer in the future, or to not tell your friends to avoid them.

Maybe that was different when you had to personally see the face of every employee you hired and every customer that you served, because basic human decency played a factor, but at this point you are a number on a sheet.

If they serve us a quality product with a smile and we pay them, and then they spit on us and serve a dog turd in a box and we pay them the same, we'll continue to get the latter.

More importantly though that restaurant would close because of its poor service and food, the same way eventually NCsoft will close because of their poor service.

It would only close due to poor service if we presume that everybody else in the world doesn't act like you. If we presume everybody in the world acts like you, it won't close because eventually you'll get hungry and have to eat somewhere.

You're basically saying "I don't have to be picky with my purchasing habits because enough other people more conscientious of the situation will resolve it without my hands getting dirty".

But, pray tell, if we all took your advice, if say you could convince everybody to do as you do, what exactly would cause NCSoft's restaurant to fail? Remember, we're all going to continue eating there so that NCSoft doesn't execute its hostage waitstaff. That sounds pretty good for business, at least for NCSoft.

[Taceus Jiwede]

You say you spent time in prison over what you claim was a pretty bad wrap. But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?

I think you misunderstand that the lawyer was in fact on my side.  I would of given her $40,000.

When you protest something, or boycott it or whatever... nobody like wants people to lose their jobs. Heck, most of us don't even want the guys at the top to be miserable. But that doesn't mean that a business or politician or whatever should be able to throw up their janitorial staff as a minimal wage human shield that allows them to do whatever it is they want to do to you.

You say you spent time in prison over what you claim was a pretty bad wrap. But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?

Probably not. At some point your own needs have to be considered too.

Again, I would be to presume that your $20,000 lawyer and the justice department that screwed you hires plenty of clerks, mail room people, receptionists, interns etc, that would probably be out of work in a perfect system that makes no mistakes too. But it still didn't seem like a great deal for you.

At the end of the day, especially with how modern companies are set up to distance themselves from their customers personally, the only way to 'change' how they think they they can treat people are through either changing where our money as their customers goes, or changing the rules of business legally (or through violence, but I don't think anybody here would argue that's remotely appropriate).

You want our efforts to do one thing, and give us no way to do it. Positive and negative publicity only matters to them insofar as it's a gateway to new sales.

How would you figure we would change the way they act? If we lead by example and got, let's optimistically say 100% of all gaming customers on Earth to do what we wanted by our example... what exactly would we do with them.
 
Except if we continue to buy as if nothing happened, and in the same confidence we had before CoH was closed as if nothing happened, they don't learn that. They actually learn the opposite. They learn that as long as either we're apathetic enough to accept anything then they can do whatever they want.

Good customer service isn't something companies do because they like you. It's something they do because they want you to be their customer in the future, or to not tell your friends to avoid them.

Maybe that was different when you had to personally see the face of every employee you hired and every customer that you served, because basic human decency played a factor, but at this point you are a number on a sheet.

If they serve us a quality product with a smile and we pay them, and then they spit on us and serve a dog turd in a box and we pay them the same, we'll continue to get the latter.

It would only close due to poor service if we presume that everybody else in the world doesn't act like you. If we presume everybody in the world acts like you, it won't close because eventually you'll get hungry and have to eat somewhere.

You're basically saying "I don't have to be picky with my purchasing habits because enough other people more conscientious of the situation will resolve it without my hands getting dirty".

But, pray tell, if we all took your advice, if say you could convince everybody to do as you do, what exactly would cause NCSoft's restaurant to fail? Remember, we're all going to continue eating there so that NCSoft doesn't execute its hostage waitstaff. That sounds pretty good for business, at least for NCSoft.

What?

I think you missed.  Well, the entire point.

[Taceus Jiwede]

@Osborn

After re-reading your post, I think I see what you are saying now.  I'll try to respond the best way I can to try and clarify my stance on it(Not always the best at picking the right words to describe what I think)  I do see a lot of your points though

First

You say you spent time in prison over what you claim was a pretty bad wrap. But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?

To clarify,  I didn't go to prison.  I got lucky.  A new DA hoped on the case near the end of the year and when reviewing it decided "This is bogus why is he even in the courts?"

But D.A's don't like to be wrong or dismiss cases so he gave me a plea bargain and not wanting to spend another $20,000 for trail plus the $10,000 court fine I decided I would just take it and seal my record when I was finished.

But that doesn't mean that a business or politician or whatever should be able to throw up their janitorial staff as a minimal wage human shield that allows them to do whatever it is they want to do to you.

I agree completely, and a very good point as well.  They shouldn't be allowed to hold them as a meat shield, and we shouldn't bring them down if they are one.  I don't feel NCSoft is doing this however.  That is why I don't want people who aren't even in the line of fire some how getting hit.  I feel there is a way to show NCSoft they can't behave like greedy jerks without anyone getting fired really.   Chances are this won't happen if NCSoft loses money, people will be fired.  It's a harsh reality.  I was just asking people to recognize that this will happen, it is easy to become so hell-bent on bringing something down, that you forget that people are actually losing their jobs and getting hurt(emotionally in this case of course)

How would you figure we would change the way they act? If we lead by example and got, let's optimistically say 100% of all gaming customers on Earth to do what we wanted by our example... what exactly would we do with them.

If 100% of gaming customers said they weren't going to take it anymore.  All companies would have to change, business' have to adapt.  But that isn't quite what I meant.  I meant if we are going to be the community saying "We have had enough of this, stop treating us like we don't exist or don't matter" then we have to take that same attitude.  We can't say that we want game companies to stop neglecting us, if we aren't going to think about the people who might get screwed unintentionally.  After all that is why we are here, because we are tired of being screwed.
Really the best way I can sum it up is; I want game companies to know that actions have consequences, but I don't expect them to adapt that attitude if the people who are telling them it don't even truly follow it themselves.

I think you can do more with the attitude of "It stops here with CoHTitan, because we won't allow it to continue" then the attitude of "Time to pay for what you have done NCSoft"

You want our efforts to do one thing, and give us no way to do it. Positive and negative publicity only matters to them insofar as it's a gateway to new sales.

I didn't really say people should do one thing or another.  I just asked people to consider everything in place.  TonyV and V.V and the others at Team wildcard are the ones I follow.  They know better then me the best way to handle this.  I was simply expressing what attitude I think we should take, I can't make people do anything and I don't want to.  I don't like the way the world works in anyway at all, and I believe the way to change it is people change themselves before they can ask the world to change.  I don't know how to fix these problems, but I know how to be caring person who considers others and that is how I feel our community should act sense that is what we are asking for.

At some point your own needs have to be considered too

Yes I agree, when it comes to not dying or other extreme cases.  This isn't one of those situations I feel though.  We aren't in a place that we have to stop thinking about others.

That is why this next part confused me a bit.

But would it be fair to you to say that you should had seen your time in prison as a sacrifice so that $20,000 lawyer and whatever staff he hires had jobs, and that your time and freedom were a necessary sacrifice to that end?

I am not sure how this applies.  I really don't see the relation.  I am not trying to mean or rude just when I read it I am not sure the point you are making.  The only sacrifices being made here are the free time people spend working their behinds off (thinking of you Team Wild Card,Plan Z and others)I don't believe by acting as the bigger person we are sacrificing anything.  If that is what you were trying to say, if not feel free to correct me:)

But, pray tell, if we all took your advice, if say you could convince everybody to do as you do, what exactly would cause NCSoft's restaurant to fail? Remember, we're all going to continue eating there so that NCSoft doesn't execute its hostage waitstaff. That sounds pretty good for business, at least for NCSoft.

I found this one rather insulting actually, I'll be honest.  First of all, I am not telling anyone to ACT like me.  I am not saying I am better then anyone or that people should be more like me.  It really gets my blood boiling to say stuff like that.  So I am sure you feel nice and good about your self for acting like people who care are stupid.  But I have better question, who the hell is dumb enough to go back to a company that screwed them?  I am glad I don't live in your world my friend.  Where everyone is so stupid they can't think for themselves.

You get the wrong message from me.  As I have said several times.  I am just asking people to CONSIDER the worker bees.  My advice is not "lets all pamper NCSoft in case someone might get a ouchie.'  My advice is, treat others the way you want to be treated.  Remember that? From 2nd grade?  Don't complain about being neglected, if you are willing to neglect others.

You're basically saying "I don't have to be picky with my purchasing habits because enough other people more conscientious of the situation will resolve it without my hands getting dirty".

I am not saying anything like that.  I don't even know how you got that.  Or how that even makes sense.  You are simply just being aggressive for the sake of being aggressive now.  I fail to see how by saying I choose not to eat places I don't like, in anyway shows a lack of being "more conscientious." Being a blapper mouth and not minding your own business is what is not being "more conscientious"  I am saying if I don't like somewhere I won't eat there.  Last time I checked I am not a food critic so really its no ones business besides my own if I like the restaurant or not.  If someone says "Hey what do you think of that restaurant" I would say "I didn't like it very much"  but other then that I wouldn't go around up to random people saying "Hey you ever ate at NCSoft?  Its awful don't.'  And picky with my purchasing habits? What?  How is not eating somewhere I don't like "not having to be picky with purchasing habits"  Also, getting your hands dirty?  Seriously? Bad mouthing something you don't like doesn't "get your hands dirty".  This isn't a war no one is "getting their hands dirty."  No matter how rugged it makes you feel, all it does is shove your opinion down peoples throat. Just because I don't verbally bash something without being asked my opinion first doesn't mean I am afraid to "get my hands dirty"

I am not sure what your opinion of me is, but it clearly seems you got that I am some passive freeloader who can't make decisions for my self and I somehow think everyone should be like me.
No.  I think people should think for themselves.  I wasn't telling anyone to act like me, I was trying to give a perspective of a person who has been screwed by the neglect of others.

It would only close due to poor service if we presume that everybody else in the world doesn't act like you. If we presume everybody in the world acts like you, it won't close because eventually you'll get hungry and have to eat somewhere.

Not even remotely true.  For one, you act as if there aren't other restaurants to eat it.  There are thousands.  If there is only one restaurant to eat at or you'll die.  Then who cares how good the food is you should be praising the cosmos someone is feeding you in that scenario.

What I find insulting about this the assumption people can't think for themselves.  I don't need to tell people that the roach cart that never washes their dishes or checks their temps is probably a bad idea to eat at.

Anyone who gets treated with poor service and then goes BACK to the same restaurant has no right to complain it.  They should of just stopped going.  So if every time someone goes to this hypothetical restaurant and the food and service is terrible, those people aren't going to come back.  Eventually enough people will have ate their to know its not good, and they will go under because you need a high volume of customers to do well in the restaurant business.  You act is if everyone thought like me we would be a bunch of mindless fools walking around not being able to think for themselves or make their own decisions.  A very insulting statement.

So before you start throwing the "If we all acted like you" card.  Keep in my mind that isn't what I was saying.  Also no need to personally attack me, especially when you are attacking me with information you didn't even perceive the way I was trying to communicate it.

But, pray tell, if we all took your advice, if say you could convince everybody to do as you do, what exactly would cause NCSoft's restaurant to fail? Remember, we're all going to continue eating there so that NCSoft doesn't execute its hostage waitstaff. That sounds pretty good for business, at least for NCSoft.

  Seriously, this got under my skin  I could see how you are getting that message but you can't honestly believe that I think no one should ever do anything out of fear of hurting someone.  You have taken me saying "Consider the consequences of your action or what you hope to do with that those actions" and turned it into some bubblewrapped never step on anyone's toes world. 

But I guess its good the whole world doesn't think like me, we would have really long lines.

[Osborn]

To clarify,  I didn't go to prison.  I got lucky.  A new DA hoped on the case near the end of the year and when reviewing it decided "This is bogus why is he even in the courts?"

But D.A's don't like to be wrong or dismiss cases so he gave me a plea bargain and not wanting to spend another $20,000 for trail plus the $10,000 court fine I decided I would just take it and seal my record when I was finished.

I'm glad you avoided a pretty unpleasant and unjustified fate.
You won't get any argument from me against the idea that the system is in a lot of places broken.

I guess my point bringing it up is that, even in that terrible system there's plenty of 'worker bees' who weren't trying to screw you, and yet got their paycheck because of a system that screwed you out of 20 thousand dollars.

I'm not saying your lawyer didn't do a good job or not. I'm saying that you shouldn't had been in the position where you had to give up that much money for what you've claimed was a patently ridiculous case that only existed at all because the original DA was too proud and full of himself to consider himself wrong.

And yet, in fixing that system, which would be a good goal, I'd think, there's going to be a lot of people missing out on whatever bonus might come from people like you that are forced to shell out 20 grand in fees to fight ridiculous charges.

My point, overall, was that, I would still be for fixing the system to not abuse people like you, despite the fact that realistically without people like you being abused by the system and handing large sums of cash out, some people are going to lose their jobs.

What I mean, I guess is that... I'm aware that even in the worst situation that fixing it can and is going to hurt some people. What I'm trying to get at is that, sometimes it still has to happen, and that saying that isn't the same as roasting those low end employees flesh over an open pit fire because of the evulz.

[Twisted Toon]

But I guess its good the whole world doesn't think like me, we would have really long lines.

So, you're the guy that holds up the drive-thru.